A Classical Revival?

Stuka,
Check under Jade DuBoir & AJ Khan.
While you`re at it, search for Minnie Gupta o ASU. She was in playboy & she`s gorgeous!

Verghese

``Equally funny is the fact that these people did not choose to object to the fact that a porn star is named Indie or India or whatever? ``


Hmmm, and how would you know that??? :) Kidding...the Porn star is called India...one Indian programmer I know went ballistic trying to scour Desi porn on the web and his initial searches threw up an Arfican-American porn star. LOL

Quite the compliment I think it is. BTW, have you heard of that well known Arab Porn star : Sheik MyBoob

``I was referring to the mass rapes commited by communalist Muslim hating lynch mobs in Gujarat and the repeated references to sexual molestation in the discourse of hate mongers eg: Ali1.``

I`` am sure the Amritsari Air force men are jolly good chaps but you must know that they arent the problem in India at the moment. ``

Okay, I was on a totally different plane. You are talking about hatred for communities, individuals etc. The rage I am talking about is against the Pakistani military-jihadist establishment. Though, the latter does turn into rage against individuals/people as well if there is no people to people contact. We, in the west are lucky that way, coz we all meet and interact as individuals. I wouldn`t be so quick to judge a bigoted Indian or Pakistani if they have no individual concept of the ``other``.

Also, not being a very religious person myself, I find it very difficult to even conceptualize relationships/ pre-concieved notions built on religion alone. Have an easier time doing it in terms of culture, nationality and the like. That`s why I misunderstood your post the first time round.

[[ #100 by Harpreet
SatyaVadi;

That wasnt humour it was expressing my contempt at real obscenity.

Anyway, sorry for the cock up (oops!) you wilting petal.
]]]

Here is my post:
[[There is a way to make a point without using gutter language. Its too easy to get carried away in your own self righteousness.]]

Whoever said it was humor? Clean shaven you might be, but a Surd you still remain.

Cheers!!
Satyavadi

Reply Stuka #89

“BTW, WOMEN DO START WARS. Think Indira Gandhi, Maggie Thatcher, even Golda Mier.”

Whut you are say? HaiN? If Indira Gundhi is womon, so is Deepka. Ha! Everybodys are know that Magret Thatcher etc were big Macho only.

Harpreet,

Ha ha, very funny that analogy of rockets and what-have-yous. One clarification though: cock$ are weapons of mass creation whereas rockets are weapons of mass destruction :)

Umer M.

Stuka;

[It is easy to convert real issues into some sort of a joke, but to say that the popular rage against Pakistan is fuelled by some sort of sexual inadequacy is misleading.]

- I was referring to the mass rapes commited by communalist Muslim hating lynch mobs in Gujarat and the repeated references to sexual molestation in the discourse of hate mongers eg: Ali1. And my general point stands, that misogynistic societies are the most backward societies, and there is a close correlation between the two phenomena, of objectification of women and repression therein and the ease with which hatred for other groups is disseminated. Because the subjugation of women in the cloak of culture or religion and tradition impedes general societal progress. It is the mentality of the feudal master who focuses his rage on the other...castration is a good metaphor for the paranoiac hysteria that is masked by Hindutva or Islamism or whatever.

It is all MALE rage.

I am sure the Amritsari Air force men are jolly good chaps but you must know that they arent the problem in India at the moment.

-h-

SatyaVadi;

That wasnt humour it was expressing my contempt at real obscenity.

Anyway, sorry for the cock up (oops!) you wilting petal.


-h-

Pankaj;

I am not a pacifist, and I am not such a big fan of Arundhati Roy. Please explain Steven Pinker though, I am not aware of him??

-h-

Verghese:

“I cannot help recollecting this humorous incident. It seems the Pres or the VP has a dog named India.”


…dubya has a cat named india…

Harpreet, Samina

Patanjali (I think) said (I paraphrase): The Gods delight in places where women are revered, but where women are not revered all (religious) rites are useless.

Walk in beauty (wib) doooooooooooooooooodes

re: Pankaj # 95

``the cause of anger amongst a lot of Indians against Pakistan is to a large extent genuine.``

A good post, but you know well that many Pakistanis feel exactly the same way about India. We may claim that their belief is based on disinformation, but that argument is unlikely to cut ice with many Pakistanis. After all, their belief about the culpability of India in Pakistani affairs is as strong and genuinely felt as is ours about Pakistan`s culpability in Indian affairs.

This is what I call the ``uselessness of information`` - additional information does not necessarily change people`s minds: it is simply discarded if it does not gibe with people`s prior beliefs. Since that is a generic argument, I expect it to be applicable to both Indians and Pakistanis.

If you ask me personally - me as a person with personal biases - I would say that Pakistani army uses this extremely effective ``information stonewalling`` in a masterful way, much to the detriment of Pakistani people. But you see the trouble - the same argument can be switched and applied to the other side, so that no learning takes place even at this level of abstraction. Isn`t that wonderful? :)

Aur nahi bhai, I am no social scientist! I am just intrigued by men, women, and their socities.

Regards.

Harpreet

``On independance day, the models of Gauris and Prithvis in the parades should be replaced with models of Vajpayees and Musharaafs cocks. They should raise models on roundabaouts and in schools of these missiles, the great powerful cocks of our leaders, who has the biggest one, one with hood, one without. These are the priapic toys and joys of our nations, look at the beauty and size of our leaders cocks. We will blast you to kingdom come with these nuclear cocks of ours. ``

Ha ha. Dear, dear, let`s not get too carried away by our own analogies. Btw you seem to be reading a lot of Arundhati Roy methinks :-). Okay, on a sober note, the cause of anger amongst a lot of Indians against Pakistan is to a large extent genuine. Not everybody is afflicted by ``castrated frustated feudal master`` syndrome. The grievances are real and not something created by our politicians or their Generals. And you do need to have a solid defence if you want to enjoy the fruits of freedom.


``Women wouldnt fight each other. They have more sense. ``
Steven Pinker wouldn`t agree with you:-); I mean on the cause...


``Misogynistic, macho cultures will always be backwards.``
Very true. Infact the status of a women in a society is a better social indicator of development than all the other fancy criteria. Yatra Naryastu pujyante, ramante tatra devatah. And the same is true for the macho cultures. People who try to show off excessive machismo are basically the ones who dont have confidence in their own capabilities...But a little knowledge of game theory and the world history also tells me that the alternative is not a ``feminine`` culture. A strong nation should always strive for peace but should be nevertheless prepared for a disastrous war. The nations which swing to the either side- ie being too ``macho`` or being too ``feminine`` , are condemned to suffering and possible annihilation.

Harpreet and the Lingams of various people:

There is a way to make a point without using gutter language. Its too easy to get carried away in your own self righteousness.

Satyavadi

Harpreet #86

I hear you.

I cannot help recollecting this humorous incident. It seems the Pres or the VP has a dog named India. So what do the keepers of India`s honor do in the streets of Bombay - they name a dog Bush or something.

Seriously - I am not sure who should be angry or may be angrier - India for having a dog named after it or its neighbor which was apparently not considered for that honor.

Equally funny is the fact that these people did not choose to object to the fact that a porn star is named Indie or India or whatever?

Sridhar:

``While a Punjabee is comfortable in his sherwani``

Hain??? Punjabis don`t wear Sherwanis. That is the dress of some other people, I think Pakistanis of UP origin. Nehru wore a Sherwani, but that`s coz his family was influenced by UP culture. I go to Punjabi weddings, nobody wears Sherwanis. Everyone wears suits. Occaisional Salwar Kameez, or as Temporal says Shalwar Kameez.

``[Abay aadhay hindu! what happened to your tail ``Talib``. ]

Now be gentle with our friend here. Picture him running for his life in the streets of his native Ahmedabad, with the kar sevaks with cans full of kerosene on his tail.... and him performing abhinayas, natyas and nrityas while he runs.... the Indian constitution tucked in his right and Bhagwad Geeta in his left hip pocket.... ``

WOW!!! I am amazed at the love and compassion you have for the Indian component of the Ummah. With friends like you, who needs enemies??? I personally don`t care about Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh but I won`t gloat about their misfortunes either. U call your religion merciful?? Who the hell are you kidding?? Yourselves??

Ali#1

``Kathak and bharatynatyam dancers should hold a half peeled banana in there hands while performing and doing the intricate abhinayas, natyas and nrityas. That will make the monkey dance look more authentic. ``

Dude, am I missing something here??? I am completely ignorant about Kathak and Bharatnatyam. To me, they actually are comparable to a monkey dance. I am also not interested in learning anything about those dances either. But then, I also don`t know about words like ``intricate abhinayas, natyas and nrityas`` which to me is Greek. So, if you are ignorant about this stuff, how the hell do u know these terms??? Obviously, you are interested enough to learn, right???

I strongly suspect that your internet persona is completely fake. Are you related to Bhartiya Mussulman?

UrsTruly

``I think people like Ali1 and others have genuine grievances with Hindus which must be addressed with compassion and love ``

Why? Ali is Pakistani. not our problem to sort his grievences, unless he chooses to live in India

``It is the rage of the castrated frustrated feudal master that fuels the ovens of hatred. ``

Dude, that is a load of crock. I have friends in the Army who lead decent lives, have nothing to do with feuadlism, have okay sex lives, and yet they don`t have a benevelont view of Pakistan coz they have people die day in and day out.

I happened to mention that my room mate was Pakistani at a Air Force social gathering in Amritsar, and the result was pin drop silence.

It is easy to convert real issues into some sort of a joke, but to say that the popular rage against Pakistan is fuelled by some sort of sexual inadequacy is misleading.

BTW, WOMEN DO START WARS. Think Indira Gandhi, Maggie Thatcher, even Golda Mier.

Verghese

Believe all the Sardarji jokes, they are all true. But we can laugh at ourselves. Hindus and Muslims have a tendency to sulk and cry and get violent if you make funnys at them. And lord knows, there is plenty to laugh at there!

-h-

Pankaj;

I know how you feel, that midnight disorientation.

[How come the hate brigade always uses sexual imagery to incite people, to fill them with disgust at ``the other``. They hate their sexual deficiency and hence deep down they hate themselves... they project their own sexual deficiencies on the ``other, the other`s gods`` reveling in directing their inner self-hatred on the ``other``]

You are right.

Misogyny and communal hatred are deeply entwined. Fear of womens independance, sexual independance, material and spiritual is at the heart of desi backwardness and communalism. To keep your own ``bitches`` under control, and to despoil the ``others`` womanhood, which is the mark of absolute succesful pollution and domination.

It is the mark of the fundamentalist and the racist that they fear the despoilation caused by the independance of women...thats what the lynch mobs in Gujarat did systematicaly, it is what obsessed the New York death squads, it is the refrain of racists who fear that the blacks are ``taking all our women``.

It is the rage of the castrated frustrated feudal master that fuels the ovens of hatred.

On independance day, the models of Gauris and Prithvis in the parades should be replaced with models of Vajpayees and Musharaafs cocks. They should raise models on roundabaouts and in schools of these missiles, the great powerful cocks of our leaders, who has the biggest one, one with hood, one without. These are the priapic toys and joys of our nations, look at the beauty and size of our leaders cocks. We will blast you to kingdom come with these nuclear cocks of ours.

Women wouldnt fight each other. They have more sense.

Misogynistic, macho cultures will always be backwards.


-h-

Dear Harpreet

It is a little late in the night. I am staring at the computer screen thinking what to write. Should I let my fingers run riot on the keyboard and watch the melange of words and phrases churning out into another post; or perhaps you already know what I am about to say. Several images cross my mind in quick succession; sometimes randomly overlapping, at other times originating from one single source. The Two minutes hate, Winston Smith, George Orwell, 1984. That`s indeed a good idea. Why not have a separate column called ``Two minutes hate`` in which, courtesy Orwell, the only passion allowed would be hate. Hate, in retrospection, is a purer emotion than love. Ah, what`s this? Another blurred image grows from a dot expanding outwards till it overwhelms my mindscreen...Freedom at midnight, Lapierre, Nathuram Godse, Veer Savarkar.... Is unimaginable hatred an outlet for sexual inadequecy.... was Nathuram`s act an act of loyalty towards his sexual partner Savarkar... why did one of the 911 hijackers denied any earthly women the privilege to visit his grave while dreaming of ravishing heavenly beauties... perhaps he figured that the Lord will grant him infinite sexual prowess to enjoy heavenly nymphets? How come the hate brigade always uses sexual imagery to incite people, to fill them with disgust at ``the other``. They hate their sexual deficiency and hence deep down they hate themselves... they project their own sexual deficiencies on the ``other, the other`s gods`` reveling in directing their inner self-hatred on the ``other``. They hate themselves and hence have suicidal tendencies... . My mindscreen is getting blank again.... Perhaps it is time for me to take some rest.

Harpreet # 80

Your responses - more precisely reminded me of a ``Sardarji`` joke , i chose not to belive it untile - that is I saw youre responses.

Cheers mate.

shammi #49,

Pakeezah is a great MOVIE; I enjoy it as a movie. As for the conservatist elements in it--I am a conservative I guess in many aspects but I don`t have to agree with everything in a movie to like that movie! It was beautifully shot and had great acting, great Urdu dialogue and mesmerising songs and music = great movie. (The plot was fairly typical).
Umrao Jaan is another great movie. It is amusing that the `golden age` of Bollywood seems to have imagined all muslims to have been poets and all rich muslims to have visited courtesans! I guess it is a stereotype of the Muslim in Bollywood cinema...what IS different now is that now Muslims are portayed as either ISI agents or as criminals.

Is the Bombay underworld really dominated by Muslims? But this anti-Muslim (and rabidly anti Pakistan) motif in BW is a recent thing..since the BJP came to power really. Bfore that we even had Amitabh playing a Muslim hero in Coolie and in Deewar too the lucky charm was a 786 badge...

I think it is perhaps a reaction to the fact that the Muslims have had a major contribution/influence to what is North Indian culture --something which Hindus ( the BJP et al) are at pains to try to deny! Conversely, there is no doubt that a lot of Hindu elements have also crept into Muslim culture too in Indo-Pak. Those which are not against Shariah are fine and should be kept but those which are against it--eh jehez, widows not being encouraged to marry again etc--must be eliminated insha Allah.

Prem #72

Notice that I did not point to any individuals in my post. I accept that some of the most disgusting and sordid people in the world are in India, such as for example the people who burnt others alive in Godhra AND ahmedabad. L.K. Advani is a demagogue and a hate monger and will be remembered only for exploiting hate in a cunning manner. People who confuse indian nationalism with the BJP`s Sarvarkar-Jinnah TNT are deeply confused.

What I did provide was to question godot`s astonishing belief that he can present himself as a peacelover while ignoring Kargil, support for jihad in Pakistan, etc. This is something that must be challenged: starting from a general/president guy who runs around calling for peace while winking at terror, to middle-class folks who participate in peace marches while their compatriots fund grenades thrown in J&K markets and killing 2 year olds. If you want to present yourself as a reasonable person, you are going to have to take some responsibility...

Pmishra2, #69
If I didn`t sense a hint of niceness in your post, I`d think that you`re being an apologist for hatred. But that`s very dangerous, though. People can take your eloquence and consider it a justification for their hatred. I`m sorry to see that J&K is also your obsession and your focal point of hatred towards Pakistan. Pakistan has shown no inclination to destabilize India, apart from their support for Kashmir rebels, a piece of real estate that Pakistanis think should belong to them based on history. But how do you explain the RAW agents in Pakistan trying to destabilize that country, and Indian atrocities committed in Kashmir? At any rate, as you very correctly point out, however inadvertently, J&K is the core issue and the seed from which hatred towards each other springs. Why doesn`t India come to grips with this reality and start a dialogue with Pakistan with a clean slate?

PS: Your sarcasm notwithstanding, all those adjectives you laid out for me, including the ``American`` bit, are very true.

Verghese, #70
``So I guess the moral of the story is that both sides need to appreaciate the finer points of each other and move on.``

This is precisely what I think. I also believe it`s our duty, as well literate people who live in the twentyfirst century, to bury the past and work towards peace and understanding with each other. All this J&K and hatred business does not bode well for South Asians and South Asia. This ill feeling and ill will towards each other has grave consequences for the region. I am absolutely dismayed to see that current Indian leadership is so blatant in its hatred towards Pakistan. As is the case in most countries, ordinary Indian citizens just follow whatever their leaders say, no matter how ignorant that leadership might be.

Prem, #72
``At the national level, an average Indian is far angrier and unwilling to compromise with Pakistan today than was the case five years ago. That comparison is across time, not across nations.``

Quite true. And it is our responsibility to reverse the time and go back to when we just accepted each other without hating them.

Harpreet, #79
``Desis have real difficulty with the individual Godot. We have the collective mindset, communal. The individual isnt valued in this culture, so we ascribe group characteristics too readily.``

Very perceptive of you, Harpreet. How do we fix it then?

PS: Hey, I may be spending one full day in London. Would like to get together with you over a couple of lagers. Drop me a line at godotatchowk@yahoo.com if you want to get together and hang out.

Verghese;

Oh wow! You are so exciting!! hahaha

wanker

Godot;

I know it is actually frightening to come asross objectification and collective hatred like that. But I reckon it works both ways. I think there can be a similar level of hatred directed towards India from other countries. I was with some Mirpuri friends of my friend who didnt realise I was Sikh, and he started chatting about how all Sikh/Hindu women are sluts. I just laughed and agreed with him and my friend mortified apologised but what did he have to apologise for. I refuse to take responsibility for the statements of morons who may share my race/nationality/background/religion, so I dont make others culpable for the deeds of ``their own``.

(Desis have real difficulty with the individual Godot. We have the collective mindset, communal. The individual isnt valued in this culture, so we ascribe group characteristics too readily)

Hatred has become a by-product of nationalist constructs in South Asia at various levels. The whole thing stinks. Just cut people like that out of your life completely. Dont dwell on it because you are a good man and it is a waste of neurons to think over fools like that. I clear out of websites like this when too much piss and vinegar gets expelled.

And remember at the end of the day it is a function of the inadequate and the pathetic. I mean how more pathetic can you actually get than peope like that.

(They dont get laid. That is so blatantly obvious)

-h-

Verghese

Oh wow were you mocking me hahaha well I apologise if I misread you and insulted you in my last post but hey I was in a hurry and like you say it would be a dull place if we all acted like oneself

sorry dude!!

re: beef production in India

http://www.fas.usda.gov/dlp/countrypages/inbfsit.html
Sridhar

re: rsridhar #75

Some of my good friends actually take pride in eating beef, and can`t stop telling the whole world about it. I say, good for them, if they like the taste.

As for me, I don`t discriminate: I look at anybody who eats any meat with utter contempt :)

Godot, Verghese, pmishra,

Aren`t we being a bit silly here, behaving very much like the irrational people we are happily and rightly slamming?

It is puerile to make structural arguments based on one`s interactions with a couple of people! Besides, there is a very strong possibility that the nature of our interactions was shaped by OUR OWN attitudes and prejudices.

I have personally met some of the sweetest of Pakistanis, and some of the most bigotted men and women ever...One deals with the good ones, and lets the bad ones simply rot where they are.

At the national level, an average Indian is far angrier and unwilling to compromise with Pakistan today than was the case five years ago. That comparison is across time, not across nations.

re:#42 by Naqshbandi
I completely agree with the spirit of your post. I have often said in the past that, after an initial period of churning and turmoil (when muslim rulers invaded the plains), a great syncretic culture was established by close interaction between the 2 communities. Urdu, classical music, art forms etc are all a testimony to this fact.
The first 2 decades after independence saw bollywood at its best. I am told 70% of lyricists were muslims. Add to that the greats of Rafi and you had a combination that held even south indians spellbound for many many years. Bollywood does not have the great film directors of the past, the like of Mehboob Khan, KA Abbas or even Raj Kapoor. S.D Burman was so popular as a music director because a lot of his music was based on folklores (something similar was done by Illaya Raja from South). Indians are unable to give that kind of music anymore because most are not in touch with their roots. In an effort to copy the west, they look pathetic!
Some people may take great pride in the fact that some Indians, like Shekar Kapoor, are going truely global by directing hollywood movies (Seven Feathers ? is the latest in his list) but i am not one of them.
Sridhar

re:#45 by ali_1
I am not angry at you. I was only pointing out the fact that, if monkey dancing is what you are interested in, Taliban have been excelling in that art form recently. They might have added this to the madrassa curriculum! (needless to say, only men can enroll!). Check it out.
Sridhar

re:#54 by sadna
You are right. The kind of people we are talking about not only degrade women but seem to act like they are carrying a great burden and, but for their efforts, Islam would not survive. Why would someone like Ali paint all hindus in the same brush without realising that hindus come in different hue and color? He is now defending MF Hussain without realising the issue involved. MF Hussain has been painting the nude pictures of Indian Gods and Goddessees for > 4 decades. No one, except some Shiv Sena loonies, has objected. This man`s knowledge of hinduism will put even Bal Thackeray to shame.
As far as eating beef is concerned, Pakis again suffer from some kind of misinformation. One Pakistani in New York asked me many years ago if muslims in India were not doing hindus a great favor by voluntarily giving up on cow-slaughter out of consideration for the majority community! People who want to eat beef are eating beef and few hindus (except the extreme fringe) would care less.
rgds,
Sridhar

Harpreet

The world would be dull place if everyone espoused the same cause or if everyone came across much like oneself.

Godot

I have come across some Pakistanis at the workplace who generally seem to have this unhealthy stereotype of India as well as a narrow worldview and stick to it. There was one occasion with a Pakistani , whoand assumed that I must be a Pakistani and started chatting. Before long he said ``My name is Mohammed `` etc. and emphaised that twice. Finally he asked me if I was Muslim , I said no I am not a Muslim , at which point he abruptly ended the conversation and attemped to walk away, on the one hand I was taken aback by this rude behaviour but on the other hand I figured it was better to not be friends with such a guy. I have had Pakistanis attempt tell me that the Hindu army is kiliing Kashmiris etc., well I was amused by that , Then there was this Pakistani guy , who upon reaching a restaurant where I was having my dinner ,found a couple of people ahead of him, and I was surprised to hear this guy loudly comment that ``Indian takle hote hain`` or some such , now that its not even remotely funny. My guess is that gentleman was really hungry and did not expect Indians to be ahead of him in a queue at that Pakistani restaurant.

So I guess the moral of the story is that both sides need to appreaciate the finer points of each other and move on. There is one particular comment I would like to make and that is that to the best of my knowledge none of the Indian textbooksthat I studied ever attempted to ``inform`` us about Pakistan or its inhabitants in a way that would be perceived as prejudicial.

Verghese#56
``I have heard of some Jesuit priests who have adapted Bharatnatyam to convey Chirst`s message. I believe something along those lines is being charted for KathaKali as well.``


Thats interesting. Isn`t it a bit paradoxical, that in order to perform well or create new compositions suited for other messages, the artist has to understand and absolutely master the art and technique of classical dance or music.

To acquire such mastery, surely, the artist has to get to the very soul of the traditional compositions, inother words sink himself/herself in the Hindu and/or Muslim ethos expressed in these compositions. I would think by the time the artist has gone that far, she/he would realise that all devotion and its expression are the same thing finally and would cease to distinguish religion of origin.

For example, why would great singers like Kumar Gandharva who put body and soul into their music ever need to distinguish whether the mukhda was addressed to Allah or to Bhagwan? The same thing might apply to dancers.

godot #68

I hate to point an inconvenient fact to a broad minded, educated, tolerant and ``american``-type person such as yourself: perhaps the indian disgust with pakistanis has something to do with the daily diet of murder in J&K for the last 10 years? And that at one point dozens of the worst khalistani extremists were supported and trained in Pakistanis in the 80s?

Before 9/11 extremists groups who had murdered all kinds of civilians in J&K were openly funded throughout Pakistan. The ``Kashmir Jihad`` was a subject of civic enthusiasm throughout the country --- this same Jihad which was generating headlines like ``Freedom Fighters kill 7 in wedding party``. After 9/11 and January 2002 there has been some change in this space, but we are yet to see any deep changes.

Fortunately, it is no longer us retarded indians only who complain about Pakistan. The whole world understands that there is something fundamentally wrong with the bizarre combination of envy, hatred and self-righteousness that characterizes a large part of pakistani culture. The recent spurt of complaints that Pakistanis can no longer easily obtain US student visas together with the great admiration for bin Laden among the young is a snapshot of this type of thinking. I have a feeling that now even advanced ``american``-type people have concerns about the nature of civic culture in Pakistan and the role of Islam there!

Harpreet, #66

I also personally experienced that from a couple of Indians with whom I was working (thank goodness temporarily.) They did not direct their diatribe towards me (I could be quite intimidating and was too American for them.) I tried to reason with them, tried to explain to them why it`s so important to live in peace and harmony, be tolerant of others, just be happy with yourself, etc, etc, etc. But they, seemingly well-educated intelligent people, had this sheer hatred for the Pakistanis and Islam which had totally blinded them towards reason to anything that`s Pakistani or Islam. When talking about Pakistan, their behavior became infantile and they looked and sounded insane. Left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I have come to believe, unfortunately, that hatred towards Pakistanis is gradually intitituionalized in India, coming from the very top in the persona of Advani.

harpo # 66:

well said!

[...(In the cases on this page though the main driver is homosexual neurosis and resentment caused by shock at genital inadequacy I reckon)...]

---this missile should land devastatingly when it finds its target

rgds,

t

ps: recall what dost-mitar wrote about similar incidents in personal meetings and conversations in ottawa...he was amazed at the bigotry and hatred of seemingly normal types of indians...

Pankaj,

It’s interesting (and scary sometimes) to read isn’t it? I had a conversation with a fully paid up member of the VHP at a friends house once and its not that he was an idiot (he was actually quite intelligent), it was just that the staggering intellectual decrepitude of his beliefs made me think that his hatred of the other ie: Muslims was caused by a deep psychological flaw, a dark mineshaft of sheer black inadequacy and self hatred, to have by-passed so completely his otherwise reasonable personage, to have utterly blown his circuits and short-circuited his brain in terms of morality. Take notes because you can actually witness a mono-maniacal descent into lunacy in the intensity of their bigotry. (By the end of my conversaton with this VHP dude he was literally foaming at the mouth, I got splashed with his spittle as he actually lost control of bodily function. All I did was to make fun of Advani. I think he had some kind of father-fixation on the man.)

It reminds me of a project I was involved in as a student when some Asian and black youth were involved in a debate and interviews with members of the BNP, a British neo-nazi party, and my friend mapped the psychological neurosis and social/economic factors that interplayed in the creation of their bogeymen and demons. (It chilled me to the bone to hear us being casually referred to as “Paki” and “Nigger” and “Scum” in every other sentence. But it was good to hear. This was a good seven/eight years ago)

I reckon it is deeply rooted in sexual and penile dysfunction, note the recurrent references to sexual spoliation, the use of rape as a metaphor and in practice too in Gujarat pogroms, and with one of our sour-pusses here, consistent reference to sodomy and denigration of Hindu Gods.

(Also, another pointer is when people are collectively refererd to in bestial terms: the first step to de-humanisation, the Jew becomes the rat, the Muslim the pig, the Hindu the monkey. About 9 years ago, a black teenager was murdered in London by some skinheads. It became a cause celebre for all sorts of reasons about institutional racism in the police force after their inept investigation, the killers were set free and still have not been convicted yet, a scandal. Anyway it has become a focal point for hate crimes and so on, like the Dreyfus affair of modern day Britain, and these racist killers were shown to have referred to black people as monkeys and rats in conversations and correspondence and during the attack he was called a ``Nigger Chimpanzee`` or something similar. Conversion to the bestial is often a prelude and primer to annihilation)

Ultimately Pankaj, whether they be Hindu Muslim Sikh or Jew, might it not be better to let them be? I read somewhere that a psychologist said that to engage in one murder fantasy a day was actually quite healthy and a stress reliever, and he referred to a survey saying that murder fantasies were fairly widespread in British society, across all levels. You know what I mean, when somebody cuts you up in the road so you want to shoot them, or your boss pushes you just that inch too far and you fantasise about strangling him. Now I have to admit, I don’t think like that everyday (only when my flatmates forget to put sugar in my tea) but otherwise you spoil people’s fun and shatter their cosy manichean worldview, and where would they be without their hate? Would you be so cruel, to take away a cry-baby’s comfort blanket? Have you no compassion?

(In the cases on this page though the main driver is homosexual neurosis and resentment caused by shock at genital inadequacy I reckon)

Actually I am going to admit something, I think that some of Ali1 and Urstruly’s quips are quite funny, they make me laugh sometimes.

-h-

(Please tell me if you liked this post, it has taken me 30 minutes to write…)

:)

Dear Pankaj #59,

I don`t blame you for being biased. To believe in one Entity creating all of humanity is to believe in hard-core equality. You, on the other hand, think in 331 million shades. My friend, I don`t blame you at all for being biased.

Umer M.

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Naqshbandi: I am glad you like Baba Waris Shah and Bulleh Shah. Here are some verses from the both. I would be interested in your views on these.

Waris Shah, Khuda de khaaneyaN nu,
mullaN chambRay haain balaayeaN ee.


ralle dillaN nu pakaR vichhoR dainday, buri baan ehna hateyaareaN nu.
khaavan waDiyan, nitt imaan vechan, ehu maar hai QaaziaN saareyaN nu.

Bullah:

mullaN mainu maarda ee, mullaN mainu maarda ee.
mullaN mainu sabak paRhayea, AlifoN aggay kujh na ayea,
oh bay hi bay pukaarda ee, mullaN mainu maarda ee.

Pankaj, #59
And the intense religious (and Pakistani) hatred of some people (namely, Indians and Hindus) amazes (not amuses) me. What do you think of that? You are awfully quiet when an Indian/Hindu lashes out, in the most abusive language, at Pakistanis and Islam. But yours, and other Indians/Hindus, feathers are ruffled when a Pakistani does the same to the Indians and Hindus. Where`s your objectivity? So, then, it seems, for you, what`s good for the goose is not good for the gander!!!

Nasbandi Saheb

It is circumstantial evidence not association, where did you learn all this , do not tell me at was at the State penitentiary where your roommate was Leroy Brown.

By the way at yourage you should be worried about getting nice Arab bridegroms for your daugthers and oh make sure that your son does not get into trouble.

The intensity of religious hatred against Hinduism by some people on this site amuses me.

verghese #57

There are several cultural differences between north and south. South has historically been more of a trading culture and therefore more pragmatic and open to change.

There is also no question that the massive genocide and systematic extermination of hindu and buddhist culture from present day Afghanistan and Pakistan has had a massive impact on North India. Muslim historians record the systematic murder of the entire ruling class (warriors, scholars) in the these regions as well as the loot of temples and wealth.

Finally, South had some enlightened medieval emperors especially Krishna Deva Rai (i am missing the exact dates here) who invested in infra-structure, unlike the north which remained disorganized and open to repeated invasion.

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Sadna , RSridhar

I have heard of some Jesuit priests who have adapted Bharatnatyam to convey Chirst`s message. I believe something along those lines is being charted for KathaKali as well.

regards

Naqshbandi

How do you explain more poverty in the Northern part sof India, more women are killed for dowry there .

Generally communal riots happen in these parts.

Generally southern parts are peaceable , and more organised compared to the North.

Now would all this have something to do with the arrival of Muslims?

Dance is finally a set of stylized idioms. That many styles of Indian classical dance used their repertoire of idioms to convey themes from Hindu religion and mythology doesnot mean that other themes cannot be conveyed, or that new dance idioms cannot be created. If dance is allowed to survive in Pakistan, the hatred of everything Hindu can lead to new styles.

rsridhar
My theory has been that if these people didnot have hindus to hate, they would turn on their women. Classical dance is a potent combination of some hindu stuff + woman, so such a violent abusive reaction is only natural.


Re Kathakali, apart from hearing of the revival of old compositions, I have even read of a Kathakali performance of King Lear from Shakespeare :).

Reply Urstruly

“But before I leave I want to ask this character: Abay aadhay hindu! what happened to your tail ``Talib``. Did Chowk Staff chopped that off?”

Abbe aadha suwar, mera tail bhool ja – yeh there liye nahin hai. Go try it on in Peshawar.

Shammi

These are the statistics of Anti-Muslim riots and number of Muslims murdered since 1954. The figures have been taken from Home Ministry of India. Ali`s estimate is just about right. Please also keep in mind that the governments in our countries always quote fewer number of casualties in such incidences.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4789/Communalism/muslims_stat.htm

I think people like Ali1 and others have genuine grievances with Hindus which must be addressed with compassion and love - and not with the Kathak naach of obfuscation.

Hi Urstruly..

Question for you. Why do you insist on calling Zafar aadha-hindu?

Thanks.

re: Ali1
``...There are over 1000 cow slaughter roits (sic) in India every year...``
Really? Prove it. MF Hussain is still able to do whatever he wants, and paint at will. That is the ultimate measure of how much the system tolerates art. Was I condescending? Absolutely so. You deserve nothing less.
Re: Naqshbandi
I think that Pakeezah is a great movie. I recently saw it again. What do you think of Raj Kumar`s rebellion against the family patriarch when he refuses to admit as as a daughter-in-law a girl who was born out of wedlock? I think that you are a fairly conservative person. How come then that you appreciated the movie despite this obvious affront to conservatives?

The thing that I hate about Kathak and all other natya crap is that the dancers make this gesture with their legs:

_< >_

god this is ugly, why you do that. That is one of the reasons I hate this pleeed dance.

rsridhar # 33

Why so angry my friend? I have nothing but regards for you and your monkey bhagwan. May he squirt his blessings on your face soon.... though you have enough foam coming out of your mouth already. ;-)

rsridhar # 33

Why so angry my friend? I have nothing but regards for you and your monkey bhagwan. May he squirt his blessings on your face soon.... though you have enough foam coming out of your mouth already. ;-)

Kathak and bharatynatyam dancers should hold a half peeled banana in there hands while performing and doing the intricate abhinayas, natyas and nrityas. That will make the monkey dance look more authentic.

shammi # 31

``The other thing that helps India churn out artists in various fora is the freedom of expression allowed by the system.``

This entire post is nothing but condescending bull.... a Pakistani dissident living in India can exercise his freedom of expression, yeah sure. But if a MF Hussain wants to paint some nude goddesses you know which hole the freedom of expression gets shoved into.

Forget about freedom of expression you hindutva thugs, how about giving the citizens of India the freedom to eat what they want to eat... like Bhagwan forbid... beef! There are over 1000 cow slaughter roits in India every year, with one muslim on average killed in each one of those.

urstruly # 39

[Abay aadhay hindu! what happened to your tail ``Talib``. ]

Now be gentle with our friend here. Picture him running for his life in the streets of his native Ahmedabad, with the kar sevaks with cans full of kerosene on his tail.... and him performing abhinayas, natyas and nrityas while he runs.... the Indian constitution tucked in his right and Bhagwad Geeta in his left hip pocket....

re:#36 by Lajwanti on September 18, 2002
Lajwantiji,
Thanks for your advice. Ali1 is incorrigible. But he surpassed himself in his last post. How much hatred this guy has against a religion can be gauged from that post. BN, Kathak etc are mere dance forms. There is nothing religious about them though some of the themes are religious. But people like Ali1 never learn. I gave it to him what he deserved and have no regrets. Still, thanks for your kind advice.
Sridhar

rsridhar i actually agree with you about bollywood nowadays not being very indian anymore but rather a false attempt at portraying india as a part of the USA; even the songs are crap now.

Gone are the days when they actually depicted indian culture with films like pakeezah and mughal e azam and chaudvin ka chand and most of raj kapoor`s films and guru dutt`s too. and i have heard bhimsen joshi and ravi shankar [he isn`t a patch on nikhil bannerjee] etc.

But most of this north indian culture which passes off as hindustani culture nowadays is a product of the muslims of india anyway; the sitar and many raags were invented by hazrat amir khusro delhvi; Miyan Tan Sen was a convert to Islam and invented Raag Miya ka Malhaar etc. Almost all of the gharanas of classical hindustani musiqui are Muslims and as for ghazals--which go hand in hand with a lot of this culture--the poets were/are almost all Muslims. The only really great hindu ghazal poet i can think of is Firaq Gorakhpuri.

No doubt the the basis of a lot of this culture was hindu but it was islamicised by the Muslim genius and hence popularised. Even most of the great monuments of architecture which India is famous for and which drive its tourism industry are mostly (not all) built by Muslims; and the international symbol of India--The Taj Mahal- was built by a Muslim too!
Heck it might be hard for you hinoods to admit but the best thing which ever happened to India was the arrival of and rule by the Muslims.

***
As for this aping of all things western and the erosion of native languages and cultural traditions--this is happening in Pak too--and it is a shame. e.g. our generation is no longer as familiar with the great Farsi classics as our forefathers which is a pity as this is a part of our common muslim heritage; ppl nowadays don`t/can`t speak khaalis urdu; as for the decimation of punjabi literature--the less said the better! Where in world literature is their poetry as moving and spiritually intoxicating and full of Truths as that of the Punjabi Sufis: Baba Bulleh Shah, Hazrat Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Baba Waris Shah sahib, Hazrat Sultan Bahu, Hazrat Fariduddin Ganj e Shakar, Hazrat Mihr Ali Shah etc? Yet it is being neglected! And the Farsi and Arabic and Urdu poets are too many. And of course Sindhi`s great poets too such as Shah Abdul Latif BhiTai etc.

There is nothing wrong with learning about western culture--they too have some great literature--Goethe for example--but not at the expense of forgetting our own!

**
I`d rather watch an Indian film about Mirabai and her poetic bhajans then a typical bollywood clone of the latest USA film!

**

rsridhar i actually agree with you about bollywood nowadays not being very indian anymore but rather a false attempt at portraying india as a part of the USA; even the songs are crap now.

Gone are the days when they actually depicted indian culture with films like pakeezah and mughal e azam and chaudvin ka chand and most of raj kapoor`s films and guru dutt`s too. and i have heard bhimsen joshi and ravi shankar [he isn`t a patch on nikhil bannerjee] etc.

But most of this north indian culture which passes off as hindustani culture nowadays is a product of the muslims of india anyway; the sitar and many raags were invented by hazrat amir khusro delhvi; Miyan Tan Sen was a convert to Islam and invented Raag Miya ka Malhaar etc. Almost all of the gharanas of classical hindustani musiqui are Muslims and as for ghazals--which go hand in hand with a lot of this culture--the poets were/are almost all Muslims. The only really great hindu ghazal poet i can think of is Firaq Gorakhpuri.

No doubt the the basis of a lot of this culture was hindu but it was islamicised by the Muslim genius and hence popularised. Even most of the great monuments of architecture which India is famous for and which drive its tourism industry are mostly (not all) built by Muslims; and the international symbol of India--The Taj Mahal- was built by a Muslim too!
Heck it might be hard for you hinoods to admit but the best thing which ever happened to India was the arrival of and rule by the Muslims.

***
As for this aping of all things western and the erosion of native languages and cultural traditions--this is happening in Pak too--and it is a shame. e.g. our generation is no longer as familiar with the great Farsi classics as our forefathers which is a pity as this is a part of our common muslim heritage; ppl nowadays don`t/can`t speak khaalis urdu; as for the decimation of punjabi literature--the less said the better! Where in world literature is their poetry as moving and spiritually intoxicating and full of Truths as that of the Punjabi Sufis: Baba Bulleh Shah, Hazrat Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Baba Waris Shah sahib, Hazrat Sultan Bahu, Hazrat Fariduddin Ganj e Shakar, Hazrat Mihr Ali Shah etc? Yet it is being neglected! And the Farsi and Arabic and Urdu poets are too many. And of course Sindhi`s great poets too such as Shah Abdul Latif BhiTai etc.

There is nothing wrong with learning about western culture--they too have some great literature--Goethe for example--but not at the expense of forgetting our own!

**
I`d rather watch an Indian film about Mirabai and her poetic bhajans then a typical bollywood clone of the latest USA film!

**

CHowk Staff has revoked my privilige of instant posting; I am sort of pissed at that. Now I feel equal to you all-and that has made me sleepless. I was never used to travel in the third class compartment along with other commoners. There was a time when Chowk used to publish great stuff and best of that was my own posts. Now I have to wait in que like rest ughhh...... I hope now that mean witch saminashah is happy......and mubarak to chowk for their so called improved quality of debate ughhhh.....I am also thinking of taking a leave of absence and go somewhere else where there is not so much indifference and I am hated again.

But before I leave I want to ask this character: Abay aadhay hindu! what happened to your tail ``Talib``. Did Chowk Staff chopped that off?

sac #24
No need to be jealous. All are God`s creatures, muttonheaded Pakistanis as much as banias. And we promise to be as thrilled with your illogic too, if you posted as often.

Reply ali_1 #23

“…one of the advantages that we got by carving Pakistan out of Bharat Mata was to rid ourselves of all the vile influences of your evil religion. Keep your kok shastras, devdasis and their dances, we are happy without them.”

Very good Ali1, I am proudnass of u! U r very good! Ur shheed! (Ia msuspect youa re liking myfried Bhatiya Muslman. Is truly?)

Slaam!

Reply rsridhar #33

``Some of your co-religionists, i am told, did a monkey dance when those daisy cutters were falling from the heaven in Afghanistan. They were pissing & sh!tting in their sherwanis even while they were running and doing the monkey dance.``

MrSridhars, thisi snot niceness! Iam very disapointa nd sorrow. If ali_1 is eating ganday janwar ka leed doesi t meaning u also will eating, haiN?

I am fried so Iam tell u, ok? do not angry.

Reply dost-mittar #19

Indeed, where is Harimau when we need him?

“I have watched many BN recitals without any dance on Gopi-Krishna theme. And almost every recital has a Tillana piece which is based on folk, as opposed to religious, tradition. But I agree that religious mythology plays a significant role in BN, as in all Indian classical art.”

I used Gopi-Krishna as an example of a theme, more than the defining one – but must admit that I learned about the katha to kathak connection from your post. Perhaps the most defining difference between kathak and the other classical dances of India is that there is a non-religious aspect to kathak, while the others are pretty much all entirely steeped in religious practice? (uh oh, I am setting myself up to be proved wrong again…my meaning is that at each BN recital it’s origin as temple dancing is clear in the dance and often also in the “accessories” like murtis/dias on stage…while Kathakali always starts with a danced pooja behind a sheet, ie one which the audience does not see. Not sure about Mohini Attam/Manipuri.)

The tillana in Bharat Natyam recitals is the “rhythm” or “pure dance” section – from what a layman like myself can see it’s less abhinaya and natya and more nritya (movement, footwork). Didn’t know that it incorporated folk themes, but live and learn :-)

What, btw, have you done to upset ali_1 this time?

Regards

Zafar

#23 by ali_1
``Keep your kok shastras, devdasis and their dances, we are happy without them.``
Some of your co-religionists, i am told, did a monkey dance when those daisy cutters were falling from the heaven in Afghanistan. They were pissing & sh!tting in their sherwanis even while they were running and doing the monkey dance.
Now, that is real culture, coming straight from the mullah brigade. You are right. Bharat natyam, Kathak you can do without. You should learn how to dance from these mullahs. Some of them are still hiding in ``the land of pure``. May be they will oblige you if you ask.
Sridhar

re: romair
``...Indians are far more talented...``
Wrong again! The cultural artefacts tht you chose as evidence of Indian advancement (bollywood movies) happen to be in an industry in which scale matters. India, being a much larger market than Pakistan, can afford to produce 1000 movies in a year simply because the market is huge. The fact that movies are made to reach a diverse audience also helps in pulling in viewers from Pak, C. Asia, Middle East and Africa. This is one area where scale, not just talent, wins.
The other thing that helps India churn out artists in various fora is the freedom of expression allowed by the system. No wonder that Mohd. Rafi left Lahore after Partition, Dilip Kumar never went back to Peshawar, and Barre Ghulam Ali Khan returned to India from the cultural backwater of Pakistan. All these individuals have no ethnic differences with their brethren in Pak. Even Bangladesh`s poetess Taslima Nasreen now lives in exile in Calcutta and the Pak poet who translated Vajpayee`s poems now lives in exile in Delhi. Had NS had his way, perhaps The Friday Times would have been published from Delhi, with Najam Sethi at the helm. What is different is that the SYSTEM respects freedom of expression (more or less).

re:#21 by Romair
Hindu culture is diverse. North had dominated India in the early decades so much that southerners feared that the ``hindiwallahs`` will just take over their culture. If you go from north to south you will see tremendous difference in languages, dress codes, food habits etc. While a Punjabee is comfortable in his sherwani, Tamilian prefers his dhoti. While wheat and tea are popular in the north, rice and coffee are the staple diet in the south. A side to side node means ``yes`` in south and ``no`` in north!
With so much diversity, there is nothing like a single Indian culture. What Pakistanis are facing today is the north indian culture, the worst manifestation of which is bollywood. Bollywood, as it exists today, does not even look Indian. The themes are borrowed from hollywood. Actors try to look more and more like Tom cruise (with pathetic results, no doubt). Actresses are going around semi-naked with their stupid hip gyrating routines. This is not Indian culture.
How many pakistanis have listened to Bhimsen Joshi, Pandit Jasraj or Ravi Shankar? How many have listened to the ethereal voice of Subbulaxmi (the only Indian singer to be awarded Bharat Ratna, the highest civilan award)? These and many others are the true cultural gurus and their legacy will outlast all the excrement that bollywood is churning up nowadays.
Sridhar

......... pakistani culture, like politics and horse racing, is so confusing - you can never figure out what is in and what is out , what is halal and what is haram, what is hindoo propaganda and what is arab kaka......... every few years the people in charge of culture and horse racing make up the rules and then change them without telling us .......that is why you have people running around spiking their punch and then taking a break for magrib prayers before dirty dancing and taraweeh ........... i grew up thinking that classical indian dance was part of our culture and naheed siddique was a goddess of sorts ..........then they told us she was a wh-re and should be banished to inglistan with her husband .......... then they came back and were again part of the cultural scene ........ who knows where they are at now .........

...... listening to fm100 is a surreal experience with people speaking urdu in english while ptv-4 constantly features talking beards speaking urdu in arabic and extolling us to stop listening to fm100........... the rest of us speak urdu in punjabi, pushto or sindhi and have no idea what is going on on radio and television ..........

......... i guess our real culture is reflected in the the mehndis, dholaks and shadis - bollywood is the name of this game ......... over the last few years these events have become highly choreographed affairs with amateurs taking over what professionals used to do ......... in the good old days we would get some nautch girls from lahore to entertain the men-folk into the wee hours of the morning while the women beat the dholak and sang off-key wedding songs ............ the cultural scene is so confusing now days - how can you have horse racing without betting and how can you have reema dancing after maghrib prayers ..........

re: sac #24

LOL....that is so on the mark.

There are people from both sides of the divide that I simply ignore: they have nothing to add to any reasonable dialogue. But Romair - well, I am often drawn to reading him. There isn`t a single absurd argument that the gentleman will not make, no flight of fancy he will not take, no strategic foolishness that he will not mistake for vision, nothing he will not say with a straight face. One has to be thoroughly trained into that state of mind - nobody can be born so exceptionally clever.

I know ...I know I am being terribly biased, but somehow Romair represents, for me, the quintessential Pakistani general - just too smart by half for their own good. If you consider that Pakistani army is full of romairs (with some hobbytys thrown in), all their history and all their policies suddenly begin to make a great deal of sense.

i`ve been wondering the same thing ever since i noticed his longer than usual absence...can only hope it`s not something seriously wrong that keeps him away from us. Perhaps he`s travelling? And didn`t feel the need (unlike myself) to tell his chowk buddies he`s going to be absent for a while. Khub pittayee hogi unki...am concerned. okay t. next time you absent yourself from Chowk for more than 72 hours, you MUST have our permission, and our blessing before doing so...unless it`s an unforeseen emergency...and i`m being super serious!

hope tahmed knows how much he`s being missed....and then there`s .....naaah *glares*....am biting my tongue...ouch.

whatever...

seriously folks...does anyone has any information on tahmed?...hope everything is ok with the fellow...

..t

The damage done by the infrequent updates of interacts on Chowk has been done. Most of the usual suspects like tAhmed321 are being sorely missed. Has anybody else noticed the disappearance of Busharraf(alias urstruly)?

The usual pattern of discussion on Chowk is something like this. Sameer posts a few interacts. Field Marshal ROmair comes flying in and sprays the usual I know everything, you bloody civilians and banias need to learn how to salute properly, Imran Khan is great, NS and BB are ruffians, Army good-politicians bad blah,blah,blah and Voila you have a 1000 word post. The banias unable to restrain their glee at the bounty of illogic provided by the Field Marshal litter the message boards with opposing posts. The Field Marshal looks for reinforcements but finds none and retreats to fight on another board...using the exact same arguments...eh armaments. And so it continues.......Mighty boring if you ask me.

Can`t wait for the book from the Field Marshal? I promise to buy at least the first fifty volumes......

later
-sac

Kathak, bharatynatyam and other forms of monkey dancing are alien to Pakistan. While a common Pakistani can identify with Bhangra, Luddi and other local dance-art forms and can admire some alien influences like disco dancing ;-) he/she doesn`t have a clue on the monkey dances of India. A small group of Mohajir elite is in love with Kathak..... good for them!

dost-mitter, you are anything but. A more appropriate nick for you would be posionous-snake.... the amount of honey-coated venom that you can spew against Pakistan is amazing. Listen, one of the advantages that we got by carving Pakistan out of Bharat Mata was to rid ourselves of all the vile influences of your evil religion. Keep your kok shastras, devdasis and their dances, we are happy without them.

I think people are missing out on the main reason for lack of interest in local cultural productions in Pakistan.

The effect of Zia`s days is obvious. It does not need to be debated. As far as I am concerned, he is in the same list as Nawaz and Benazir (and her father). The only thing that differentiates them, is that each destroyed a different aspect of the society. Zia destroyed the social fabric, while the other three destroyed the economy. Anyone who opposes one of the above, and not the other, either likes the Army and religious parties more than he/she should, or dislikes the Army and religious parties, more than he/she should.

However, Pakistan was not big time on the cultural map of the world even during the more open days of Ayub and Z. Bhutto. At the same time, even during Zia`s days, certain forms of culture did booming business - assuming that one considers Indian movies (and music) to be culture. Zia himself gave, for some strange reason, Dilip Kumar the highest Pakistani civilian award, the Nisha-e-Imtiaz. Not that I have anything against D.K, but what did he do to deserve it? Zia`s favorite actor was Shatru Sinha, who used to apparently visit him, now and then. Interestingly Shatru is now an avid supporter of BJP, along with Vinod Khanna.

Culture and entertainment is heavily tied into the Pakistani society and even into its interpretation of its religion. If you don’t believe me, then go to the mizars of the people who spread Islam in what is now Pakistan, and see all the singing dancing. Or discuss Shahrukh Khan with the relatives of the village maulvi.

So people should take the criticism of Pakistani religion-haters, on this site and outside, with a grain of salt. Since they will blame religion (and Army) for everything. They need to stop complaining and start taking practical stands. After all, Junoon`s concerts were broken up by religious zealots. BB and NS banned them. None of this stopped them, since they are doers and not cynics. Look where they are now. They are the darlings of the current govt., and playing to full houses. They are a good example that talented people who want to do something in Pakistan, can do so. Our cynics should learn a lesson from them.

Ever since Indian movies and music was introduced, via the VCR, into Pakistan, it has taken over Pakistan. It almost put the Pakistan movie industry out of business. In the most remotest parts of Pakistan, I have always seen two things: a mosque and an Indian video shop. VCRs are the prominent item in a bride’s jaheez.

The above would indicate that Pakistanis are broad-minded when it comes to entertainment. They know how to differentiate the good and bad from other countries/ideas in culture, and harmonize it with their society and religion (otherwise you wouldn’t see a mosque and an Indian video shop in rural Punjab). Only the cynics would disagree.

Then, what is the biggest reason that our, ``culture`` and ``entertainment has not taken the world (or even Pakistan) by storm? The secondary reason is that the society has, since Zia`s days and NS and BB days, been closed more than it should have been. But the primary reason is that we just aren’t very good in this arena. Indians are far more talented, and have thus taken over the entertainment arena in Pakistani. If religion and social narrowness were the main reason, then Indian movies and music wouldn’t have done booming business in Pakistan. Nor would Junoon and Nusrat done booming business.

The current govt. has opened up Pakistan culturally. Even Madeeha Gohar has stated this openly on BBC. She was recently given a pride of performance, even though she spent her career doing anti-govt. stage plays. So we can take her word, over the word of various other interactors. However, I don’t think this new openness will be dominated by, ``local`` Pakistani culture. It will be dominated by Indian, and to a lesser degree American culture. Since their writers, dancers and singers and producers are better and more entertaining.

So, as in all other areas, we need to stop complaining and blaming, and start doing. Instead of complaining about Zia and religion all the time, we should use this new openness to learn and participate in dance, music, literature, act in a movie, sing a song, write a book, etc.. I am doing my part by co-authoring a book on Chowk :-)

#18 Zafar
Kathak used to be the province of courtesans, whereas bharatanatyam was once confined to devadasis. Not that different in a way.

Reply Rsridhar, LadyAna

A major difference between Kathak and Bharath Natyam`s history is that Bharath Natyam has an ancient and unbroken tradition which has never had to make any attempt to ``expurgate`` particular aspects. What I mean is that most BN performances are almost all structured around religious stories of some sort (variations of Krishna and the Gopis are favourites) - Kathak, developing as it did under the patronage of mostly Muslim rulers, doesn`t have that sort of ``plot`` to hang the dance on - which makes it harder for it to engage an audience. Traditional Islam`s ambivalence about dance did have an effect.

Right now I think the reason that Indian classical dance styles have a fairly safe future is that most middle class Indians see it as not only respectable but desirable for young ladies to go off and take a class in these forms. (Perhaps not all as seriously as RSridhar`s sister - six years! - but even an introduction is enough to foster an appreciation of the art, which translates in support - read sold tickets - in later life.) The better known dancers from the generations after Rukmini Arundale are all from families which are extremely ``respectable`` (Mrinalini Sarabhai) and that has had an effect on how classical dance is viewed.

Ditto for classical vocal and instrumental for both boys and girls. What`s unfortunate here is that some of the less ``glam`` instruments and styles haven`t benefitted from this, and there doesn`t seem to be anything done to keep them alive apart from some Lalit Kala Akademi type grants, which are not all that munificent. (For eg, lots of people learn the sitar, but who is learning the Esraj and who will be able to play it in a couple of generations?)

Vaisai perhaps Pakistan`s discomfort with classical art forms associated with Hinduism and the relative absence of a Bollywood equivalent (Lollywood? Ai tau koi bhoose di mithai da naam...) makes space for other ``folk`` forms to take on a greater public presence and new development - for eg the kind of traditional music Abida Parveen sings is not only every bit as good as classical forms from India, it is something that is new and different while remaining solidly within that tradition - in fact it`s tremendously popular in North India too. (She gets invited to Svar Utsav every year, just like the late great Nusrat used to be. Perhaps Pakistan is paying us back for the Big B with the...?)

Regards