The Kal Aaj Aur Kal of Secularism

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Harimau

Let`s hear what you did on your vacations in India,apart from coming to chowk,and what was javed doing in the temple.

HaramiU
``Here is the deal: I shall provide the contact information for Javed so some neutral party (it can be the editors at Chowk or Dost-Mittar -- after all, you decided to jump on me when I was interacting with him) can verify what I said. blahblahblah...``

Oh goody. This will be interesting to watch. I`d bet my money on HaramiU running away with his tail tucked between his hind legs as usual. Prove me wrong bucko!

Ref Camel Express #111

[Stop shedding crocodile tears for hindus of Pakis tan or uslims of India

http://sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=249014

Indian forces on killing spree of Muslims
========================
F.P. Report
ISLAMABAD: Ever since extremist BJP has grabbed power in New Delhi in the wake of renewed fundamentalist Hindutva agenda, Indian security forces have become law unto themselves and are on a killing spree throughout India, Muslims being their favourite targets. According to...]

Would this include the 587 people killed (till last Monday) in Kashmir during Phases I & II of the elections there?

Or, is killing of Muslims by Muslims acceptable if the end goal is to separate Kashmir from India?

POST # 109 IS NOT MINE.

Ref Banjaara #109

[... you continue to grace Chowk with your presence, even if you are on vacation.]

Not once but twice I have said that my vacation was between June 15 and July 14. Find a post by me during that period. Go do it. It is easier with the new Chowk format. All you have to do is click on my name in any of my posts and look up all my old posts.

How about another $10,000 bet? Put your money where your mouth is. This time both your money and mine goes to the Edhi Foundation. How about it? Huh?

Or, do you have Attention Deficit Disorder or Alzheimer`s?

[=Allowing your niece to be friendly with a muslim girl.]

Allowing my niece to CHOOSE her friends? With that kind of attitude, YOU are the control freak who decides what anybody in your family can and cannot do. Will YOU be choosing a Dalit bride for your son? I would like to see that. How about a Baha`ai son-in-law? Obviously, since you claim to be filled with love for them, you should be willing to do that.

[=Allowing Javed and family in the temple for your niece’s wedding.]

Again, not once but twice I have said the wedding was not in the temple. Would you prefer that I write in Hindi, the national language of your third-rate country? Would you be able to understand me then?

#104 dost-mittar
You want to know why Harimau generalizes and stereotypes so flagrantly, or in short, why he is such a bigot?

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Ref anNy #112
[ its very nice to help people out but taunts and betting and gloating in these matters is very distasteful...]

Read my post #32. All I did was relate an interaction between friends belonging to two different religions who accommodated each other`s wishes and religious beliefs. Nothing more. If the incident doesn`t agree with certain people`s opinion about me, I have no problem with that. But if someone wants to call me a liar, I am prepared to back up my story with my money; that is all I am saying.

I do not have problems with pious Muslims like Naqshbandi or liberal ones like nasah and Zafar. I do have problems with the likes of Mullah321, Urstruly, and the 12-Head. But I take severe objections to the pretence and utter hypocrisy of people like Soysauce, Headshrinker and Banjaara. I am more merciless to this group of hypocrites than to the 12-Head.

#106
Unkalji, you certainly stoop to the occasion and behave even more childishly than usual. Why the need to brag? Low self esteem? Why the need to emphasize that muslims can be humans? You seem to be the only one here having any doubts on this score. It surely is a window into the psyche of the mass murderers in gujarat that you so empathize with, that a hindu thinks muslims can be regular people.
How does it matter that you tricked the temple priests into thinking that Javed and his family are hindus? Are you trying to convince us how inclusive you are? How inclusive your family or your religion is?
You obviously have not been to a church or a mosque where respect is not demonstrated by faking your belief or by being forced to act like everyone else. If Javed is real and events happened as you say, then there`s something even more rotten and insidious about you than you have let on until now.
My sympathies.

aanNydearest,
Be nice to harimau. Else he`ll post the names and addresses of all his muslim drivers and servants to show what a sweet person he is.
(There i `ve returned the extra ``a`` you gave me)

gentlemen
can we please stop being bitchy here? anyone who wants to give money to a charity or their drivers should please do so, its very nice to help people out but taunts and betting and gloating in these matters is very distasteful...
im saying it nicely right now; one more budtameez post harimau & soyasauce- and ill really start kicking your sorry indian (couldnt resist ;))
behinds

Harimau various.

Finally all my doubts about you have been removed by your various posts in response to my needling.. You took the bait and fell hook, line and sinker,in the process exposing yourself as a hate filled, old bigot whose waking hours are spent searching for ways to hurt the muslims and Pakistanis.

Funny to see that inspite of the general contempt shown towards you by most of the interactors you continue to grace Chowk with your presence, even if you are on vacation. What a pathetic person.Can’t you see that no body wants you here. Inspite of your proclaimed hatred for anything muslim, you don’t hesitate to recount about your great
compassion and love for them .eg :

=The financial help to the muslim driver for his son’s education post Gujrat riots.
=Before the Gujrat riots,some more financial help on a regular basis to another muslim driver.
=Allowing your niece to be friendly with a muslim girl.’
=Allowing Javed and family in the temple for your niece’s wedding.

You, sir, are incapable of warmth and love for anyone,be he Hindu, Hindu,Muslim,Sikh,Christian,Ahmadi,Shia,Jews et al except for theTAMIL BRAHMAN . Your hatred of other hindus from Tamil Nadu is available on each page of Chowk.You are a sick man and need treatment.

Wishing you the best in life.

Ref Color TV Developer using RGY as the Primary Colors #102

[Your story about (fictional) Javed brought tears to my eyes.]

Fictional story? Willing to bet on it, thayoli?

Here is the deal: I shall provide the contact information for Javed so some neutral party (it can be the editors at Chowk or Dost-Mittar -- after all, you decided to jump on me when I was interacting with him) can verify what I said. If I am proved to have been truthful, you deliver $10,000 to a charity of my choice. (Just to rub it in, that would be the Tamil Brahmins Association in Chennai). If I am proved to have been lying, I shall deliver $10,000 to Chowk Editors for transmittal to the Edhi Foundation.

How about it? Take me up on my offer. In fact, I am willing to bet against EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU who wants to question me on this incident. That should raise a sizeable sum.

Chowkwallahs, just watch the as$hole disappear from the scene.

[What next? Are you going to be partaking of the chicken and toddy offering at your friend Masanamuthu`s temple the next time you visit him? You know being a good guest and all that... ]

Being a good HOST, Maasanamuthu will not offer me chicken or toddy.

Even better, despite 70 years of propaganda by Father Big Man and followers, he will make sure that OBCs like you don`t get close enough to touch me.

As to visiting temples, I shall soon visit the grave of the Great Intellectual Elder Brother Lord (for my non-Tamil friends, this is Annadorai, the former Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, who pioneered the Self-Respect Movement and claimed there was no God). Why don`t you tell Loquat how, in the manner that is so typical of you Rationalist Thinkers, he is now being venerated as a god, what with crowds gathering at his grave and breaking coconuts like they would do at a Hindu temple? That would warm his heart and give him the hope that someday Allah might reach the same status.

Anyway, you know you have been dodging my question for over one year. How much more dowry did you get for your professional degree?

But at least in the matter of the dowry, you were ripping off only your own castemen. Thank God for that!

Ref dost-mittar #104
[harimau:
Do you know soysauce personally? If not, why do you talk in such personal manner? Isn`t he just another anonymous poster here?]

Dost-Mittar sahib, just remember that ALL hypocrites are alike. That is why I am able to ask questions of Soysauce that he refuses to answer.

As to personally knowing that worshipper of Khushbambika, I think I shall pass on any such opportunity.

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folks sorry to change the subject -- breakig news --

beware chowk and chowkis -- attention -- sameerjb -- hamidm -- tahmed -- caution -- ayaz amir -- irfan husain

a new Blasphemy Law -- for prophet musharraf -- by prophet musharraf !!!

u will be JAILED if u say a bad word against hazrat musharraf (pbuh) -- details in NATION

ISLAMABAD – President General Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday promulgated an ordinance on defamation which would tighten rope around (the neck of) those media men who would be accused of doing ‘unjust critcism’ or propagate such false information that may harm the reputation of an individual.

The Ordinance brings under its net all those newsmen who circulate misleading statements which may reduce the person concerned to ridicule, dislike, contempt or hatred.

“Any wrongful act or publication or circulation of a false statement or representation made orally or in written or visual form which injures the reputation of a person (such as calling Musharraf a Busharraf), tends to lower him in the estimation of others or tends to reduce him to ridicule, unjust criticism, dislike, contempt or hatred shall be actionable as defamation,” says the ordinance.``(Nation)

hamidm miaN -- where r u -- u have to do something abot this -- u have to write u give up.

folks please don`t ridicule mr mooshruff -- especially don`t ``lower him in the estimation of others`` --

saima shah - r u and chowk safe in canada?

Ref Priest at Khushbambika Temple #102
[Your story about (fictional) Javed brought tears to my eyes.]

You know, you belong to the same group as loquat.

I bet you don`t have a single friend from a caste lower than yours. YOU wouldn`t give water to a Dalit but you shed crocodile tears here.

I am sure it feels terrific to have stolen some Dalit`s quote seat in a professional college and use that as your ticket to the US.

By the way, did ANYONE in your family marry outside your caste? Did a SINGLE one of them refuse to accept dowry? Have YOU paid the tuition of some deserving poor student in college with the big bucks you make in the US?

I don`t think so.

Unkalji,
Your story about (fictional) Javed brought tears to my eyes. What next? Are you going to be partaking of the chicken and toddy offering at your friend Masanamuthu`s temple the next time you visit him? You know being a good guest and all that...

#97
``Even Soyasauce says so. Ofcourse, he could be lying given his personal bias and elopement with your wife..``

Hey how did i get dragged into this? Feel free to throw mud at each other but please leave the sacred soysauce out of it.

Ref loquat #96
[Is the dungbeetle a member of the existing pantheon of gods and goddesses ? Much obliged for your profound responses.]
Yes, of course. The dungbeetle ranks about 30 levels higher than Allah.

Ref loquat #92
[Your humility and love for the Muslim Ummah will be written in golden letters in the history of modern India.]
While I am sure you have friends from Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir and Afghanistan, I wonder if you can point to a single Sikh, Christian, Parsee or Hindu as a friend. Would you even recognize a Hindu or a Sikh but for your ``K for Kaffir`` education in Pakistan?

How about an Ahmadiyya? You wouldn`t happen to have an Ahmadiyya friend, would you? Or a Baha`ai?

Ref loquat #97
[Is it true general saheb, that you are a nut case ? Even Soyasauce says so. Ofcourse, he could be lying given his personal bias and elopement with your wife, but uncle Jay also has the same opinion about you. And now your doctor DrDr ( he is a double doctor) confirms it.]

Your low IQ is confirmed when you quote 12-Head. I refer you to his post #91 where he has this to say about you:
[Khamkhwa
Im beginning to think Ur a moron and a mean spirited yokel. Deadly combination!]

When you think he is your supporter, there is no hope of recovery for you.

Harima-ul-Haq # 94

[ Since you are a dungbeetle]

Is the dungbeetle a member of the existing pantheon of gods and goddesses ? Much obliged for your profound responses.

Harima-ul-Haq # 93

[HaramiU
Ur last vacation was a in a funny farm where they wudn`t let U near a computer. U implied that Urself.]
I implied nothing of that sort. I am NOT telling you where I went on vacation though one of my posts would have given you some hint.

Is it true general saheb, that you are a nut case ? Even Soyasauce says so. Ofcourse, he could be lying given his personal bias and elopement with your wife, but uncle Jay also has the same opinion about you. And now your doctor DrDr ( he is a double doctor) confirms it.

Wishing you a quick recovery.

Ref kumquat #92
[Your humility and love for the Muslim Ummah will be written in golden letters in the history of modern India.
harimau zindabad.]
The Muslim Ummah is the collection of asholes like yourself who populate the various -stans and their madrassahs.

Indian citizens who belong to the Muslim religion do not belong to this trash heap unless they specifically want to. Certain gentlemen and ladies of Pakistani origin who participate in Chowk discussions do not belong either.

This is a distinction I have always made. Since you are a dungbeetle, you cannot tell the difference.

The sooner the Ummah gets its collective brain tissue (amounting to two micrograms) pounded into the ground by daisycutters, the better it will be for the world and its honest Muslims.

Ref loquat #92
Did you rape your maidservant today? That seems to be the standard procedure in Pakistan.

I love it when you Islamist thugs take it out on fellow Muslims and then lecture Indians about how we ought to treat Indian Muslims.

Ref Fakin` Hakim #91
[HaramiU
Ur last vacation was a in a funny farm where they wudn`t let U near a computer. U implied that Urself.]
I implied nothing of that sort. I am NOT telling you where I went on vacation though one of my posts would have given you some hint.

[I think Chowk should insert an emoticon in all Ur posts indicating that Ur pure poison.]
Pure poison to all those with impaired mental skills. It is surprising that not one of your 24 heads is dead, though.

[Did U force Javed to drink some of the cow urine at the temple?]
If I did, that would be still be better than training in the use of Kalashnikovs as you guys do in madrassahs.

harimau-88

[I have NO love or compassion for the Muslim Ummah.]

Please do not be so humble.You and your family have been providing financial help to your muslim driver for his children`s education . I am
certain that you are the latest incarnation of General Zia ul Haq.Your
humility and love for the Muslim Ummah will be written in golden letters in the history of modern India.

harimau zindabad.

HaramiU
Ur last vacation was a in a funny farm where they wudn`t let U near a computer. U implied that Urself. I think Chowk should insert an emoticon in all Ur posts indicating that Ur pure poison. Did U force Javed to drink some of the cow urine at the temple?

Khamkhwa
Im beginning to think Ur a moron and a mean spirited yokel. Deadly combination!

Ref IQ-5-points-lower-than-a-kumquat #86
[You don`t want me to `cut n paste` your ``balanced`` interactions oozing of love and compassion for the muslim ummah. Every one knows you for a muslim lover.]
I have NO love or compassion for the Muslim Ummah. The Muslim Ummah needs to go fcuk itself which actually it is doing rather well considering the state of affairs in ANY of the Muslim-majority countries.

[Javed and his wife were allowed by you in the temple for the wedding of your nephew.]
I know you have ADD (attention deficit disorder). If you read my post carefully,

a) it was my niece who got married
b) the wedding was NOT in the temple.

harimau-81

[No, you idiot. Go and read my earlier posts]

You don`t want me to `cut n paste` your ``balanced`` interactions oozing of
love and compassion for the muslim ummah. Every one knows you for a muslim lover. Even Javed and his wife were allowed by you in the temple for the wedding of your nephew. :)

it is quite possible that arjun has said something intelligent at least ONCE here on Chowk...i would have said `in his life`...but it`s a beautiful day in the neighborhood...and cruelty is wasted on ------ :)

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InYourFace #76: When I refer to harimau as hindutva scum (i.e. a religious chauvinist who happens to be a hindu), I am describing him for exactly what he is: an unrepentant, shameless apologist for the cold-blooded murderers of Gujrat, the one now calling for collective punishments after the latest violence in Gujrat.
When harimau refers to me as a mullah (i.e. a religious chauvinist who happens to be a muslim), he is merely name-calling: the reason is that the term mullah comes nowhere close to describing my views on chowk, and indeed represents the opposite of everything I have always emphasized on chowk. That is, I must have written scores of posts on chowk by now that emphasize respect for all religions and beliefs, and indeed made it clear that it is no big deal whether you are a muslim or a hindu as long as you are good human being who respects all life. There is not one post, out of the hundreds I have written, where I have glorified muslims as being anything special, or dwelled on historical grievances, lies (I use this word advisedly, based on past interactions as well as his latest bs about collective punishments in FATA), based on of the kind people like harimau and the murderers he supports indulge in.

termporal #73 you explain: ``i was thinking all that would happen after a due process of law…and only those the courts would find guilty would be penalized…not against ALL muslims of godhra, or gujrat or india.`` With this I of course agree fully - i.e. treat killing of individuals for any reason (``revenge killing``, ``freedom fighting``) as plain cold-blooded murder, and treat the killers as common criminals and murderers.

sameerJB #72: This much I will agree with: Second-hand smoke is a form of collective punishment. Not the same kind as was being discussed of course (that would require the smoker blowing smoke in the face of a specified community of people only, and as a form of ``punishment`` for the sins of someone from that community). And indeed, all over the world this form of ``collective punishment`` is becoming increasingly against the law anyway. They just banned smoking in schools, public transport, government offices in Pakistan - although it will probably take a decade for practice to catch up with the law there.
Similarly, while divorce no doubt is collective punishment for members of the family (particularly in poverty stricken societies like Pakistan), I dont think anyone condones divorce either.
The fact that we are even trying to justify something that is generally recognized in all progressive nations of the world today as being a war crime is an indication, I think, of how far behind we are in South Asia with respect to basic morality despite all our pretensions to being religious and so forth.

Ref All-the-IQ-of-a-Kumquat #74
{harimau

[ I have always been for equal punishment for all types of ill-mannered louts.]

That`s very funnnny}

No, you idiot. Go and read my earlier posts.

I do not have much patience with those who exhibit trisomy-23.

++

#61 by AzadMunna

Your comment on my post #50:

You are after all NOT an Einstein.otherwise you would Understand Scientology is a `movie star` religion & NOT necessarily science or scientific.

++

In original interact #8 (to which I was replying) AmericanExpress does not mean any `movie star` religion. He obviously meant ``science based belief system`` and not Scientology. If I am wrong then may be AmericanExpress should write a rejoinder. Unless you and him are in telepathic communication and you know what he meant.

-einsteinwallah

Here we go!

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/sep/26varsha.htm

``Already, a leading Islamist of India, the Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid, Syed Ahmed Bukhari, who holds sway over 130 million Muslims, has said that ``it was too early to say whether the attack was staged by relatives of Muslims killed by Hindus in the recent riots or the raid was part of a deep-rooted plot by Hindu zealots to rekindle religious violence.`` (UNI, September 25) ``

``Add to that the statement of the London-based Council of Indian Muslims: ``If honest and impartial investigations are made we would not be surprised if the BJP/VHP leadership is found guilty of organising this attack on a temple.`` (IANS, September 24)``

Typical Tahmed is at it again:

#53 by tahmed32: `` ... a half-brained hindutva creep like harimau, ... ``

#69 by tahmed32: ``...Incidentally, calling me names (Mullah32) does not prove you are right either: it just proves the type of household you grew up in. ``

And the Mullah throws a tantrum!!!!

``I will not be responding any more to your posts (unless I change my mind) since you are not worth wasting time with. ``

Hey Tahmed! Please don`t stop posting. You are kinda funny.

tahmed32,

``...why it is wrong to condone something that is a recognized criminal act...blah,blah``
``...scum like harimau..blah,blah``

Welcome back! Inspite of the handle change, we notice with regret that tahmed has (yet) not changed his genteel-rebuke ways!

We look forward to the day when tahmed`s posts will start like ``Oye harimau, oye teri ..$&*@$..`` !!!

looking forwardingly,

harimau

[ I have always been for equal punishment for all types of ill-mannered louts.]

That`s very funnnny :)

How can you clearly separate individual and collective punishment. Every individual punishment have collective effects. History is full of collective punishments. Some punishments are quick, some are slow but most punishments are first order or second order collective punishments. Even a simple divorce is a collective punishment because it punishes the society abd family members of [arties involved. Who would you punish for pollution. Whole world is collectively being punished. Even a smoker is punishing many people through secondhand smoke.
According to some major religions, human beings are in this world as a punishment for an individual to wat forbidden fruit. Holocaust, Native American`s decimation, slavery, Stalin Purges, banu Qurayza, Rwanda-Burundi, ethnic cleansings, partition riots, Kashmiris massacre, Bangladeshi massacres, Sikh massacres following Indira Gandhis assassination, Gujrat communal riots are all collective punishments by one group against another. The history according to class struggle is basically a history of collective punishment of have-not classes. Punishing a person from any social group is collective punishment to that social group in terms of mourning and other side effects of individual punishment. What can I say more as a Pakistani: Pakistanis are being collectively punished one way or another since the creation of Pakistan, always by fellow Pakistanis with guns, land, religion or money. No punishment and no collective suffering will have to wait for hereafter.
Oh lord, please punish us; make us immoral and unethical materialists with computers, knowledge, education, food, sex, industries, work, freedom, liberty and choice instead of punishing us by parting us with your best. Oh lord, we are unworthy of chosen, son and last. Make a hell for unworthy human beings on earth with fires burning in each and every goddamn heart for justice, peace, compassion, equality and knowledge. We don`t deserve Mecca, Jerusalem or Mount Sinai. We failed to conduct ourselves according to your wishes. We are poor conductors of your best, punish us with semi-conductors, and instead of milk and honey valleys as you wished us, punish desis to make silicon valleys.

.
tahmed, dost-mittar:

...thank you for your rebukes!…based on my words i can see how you deduced i am for collective punishment…apologise for it…

(an explanation:…in my mind i was thinking all that would happen after a due process of law…and only those the courts would find guilty would be penalized…not against ALL muslims of godhra, or gujrat or india…

…also…

by extension…when I said […However, am all for this IF this is applied across the board to ALL such (religious/ethnic/racial) incidents AND benefits extended to victims AND their families…] I was also thinking of those who were guilty of atrocities and murders in the past, moradabad, delhi, bombay…and they were not necessarily muslims….and my ALL included individuals as well as state and its instruments…after due process of law, of course!…and since the earlier perpetrators have not been prosecuted yet…what chances for the godhra perpetrators?…

…apologies again…

rgds

t

If collective punishment is applied equally then this is a good idea. Violence will decrease when people begin to suffer the consequences of promoting violence. Currently there are no consequnces. Would 2000 Muslims have been killed if Hindus of Gujrat had to pay a collective price?

hmmm...when mau mau and temporaloo agree on the same issue (albeit in different ways and possibly for different reasons), and the earth is still standing...then perhaps hope still exists. :)

temporal #56 You made me go back and re-read what you wrote, and it is still quite clear that you are condoning the concept of collective punishment upon a community. I dont think you are someone who ducks an issue (that is the specialty of scum like harimau), so I request that YOU now go back and re-read what I wrote and give it some thought before responding.

anNy #62 Actually chowk can take up a lot of time, I think. I just wasted a few minutes trying to explain to temporal why it is wrong to condone something that is a recognized criminal act. And this is Mr. t himself, not just any tom, dick or harimau.

harimau #60 Even if you were factually correct (which you are not, and I have proven you to be a liar on at least three occassions in the past on chowk when you attributed something to me and then, when challenged, could not back it up by any post from me), that would still not be a reason for calling for collective punishment of communities in India. Incidentally, calling me names (Mullah32) does not prove you are right either: it just proves the type of household you grew up in.
I will not be responding any more to your posts (unless I change my mind) since you are not worth wasting time with.

Harish
I agree with most of what you say.

``I understand by secularism an easy, even lighthearted patronising of other faiths``

Very often, but because religion is very in-your-face in India, quite often we get more involved in each others religious concerns than that. Apart from social occasions at festivals, as friend was pointing out, many of us have knelt in church or know word for word the prayers to a deity we maynot worship because we heard them over a PA system in the neighbourhood or in our schools or in the movies.

Then there is the large amount of public paraphernalia like processions and festivals which involve every religious community in its associated commerce and in things like special civic arrangements irrespective of whether its a feast of St Mary or the local Hindu diety.

For these reasons, IMO, an Indian of any religion is different from his coreligionists anywhere else.

And like you say ``Religion seems so entwined in our part of the world....that even being atheistic does not allow an individual to stay away from religion``


Thats what confuses the rediff and NDTV folk, I believe about where does communalism start and secularism end.

According to me secularism is the principle that other people have as much right to follow their own faith/religion as one has to follow one`s own.

Communalists are those who seek to curtail others rights to their own beliefs and who seek to impose on others their belief in the superior validity of their own(the communalists`) faith, beliefs or religion.

So how about those whose religious duty it is to convert. Thats a hard question. I always took it as, such people have to listen to temple music say everyday from 5.am, thats our religious imperative they have to cope with. So I have to say no to people persistently trying to convert me, that is their religious imperative that I have to cope with. When such efforts are individual, where else but India would it be normal for one to have friends trying to convert one who then give up and continue to be friends, as in my personal experience :). When these are large scale corporate/organisational efforts, thats where debate is needed.

Many social religious and political ideologies in India including casteism, evangelism, even Indian Marxism have been guilty of being communal as defined above.

``Once you have a debate, it somehow ends up being defined by the opponent`s points``

This is true of the tutu mai`n-mai`n rediff/NDTV Hindutva/ Cong/Marxists sort of debate. One side which considers itself `secularist` so thinks irreligiousness is a preeequisite of secularism and considers religion to be communalism. Their opponents consider secularism to be the debunking of religion, specifically Hinduism and consider being a communalist is a prerequisite of being unhypocritical and religious.

Moreover, for one side, secularism is what the Cong and Left parties profess and for their `secular` opponents secularism means simply opposing BJP. These debaters act as if these political parties, their ideologies and their historical venalities are the only relevant factors to define secularism in India and that the wider India, the Indian people and the Indian constitution are relevant only as dumb witnesses and blind followers, willing to suffer quietly in relief camps while these important folks settle the matter between themselves.

Various re: collective punishments ... apparently the economic boycott of the Muslim Community being urged by various outfits in Gujarat was inspired by the same logic. It punishes the innocent as well as the guilty - how does anyone tell who was in the mob and where they were from or where these lunatics in the temple came from. Even if you can whose job is it to stop them ? It is the job of the law inforcement agencies to prevent these incidents - if anyone should be fined it should be the police if they don`t do their job specially in cases where they have been clearly lax.

``I was thinking about this uncomfortable label. Secularist. I have not been comfortable with it.``(HN)

Now my friend -- just think how uncomfortable must Advani be feeling in that unwieldy Garment – must be feeling like tearing those Khaddhar Clothes and running -- naked free... free at last … free at last

gentlemen, exactly what is wrong with hanging out here during one`s vacations? i do..u say it like its a bad thing

Khamkhwa
All your various heads? Dude, I`m not a Hindu God.

tahmed #53 and khamkhwa #53:

please extend me the courtesy to read EVERY word that i have written in response to #47 quote...

ALL incidents...ALL victims...etc.

Ref Fuk`em Hakim #51
[Khamkhwa,
HaramiU has no wife and no life either. He admits to hanging around here when he`s on vacation. What a loser!]

Your reading comprehension is extremely poor but what can one expect from madrassah-educated individuals?

I said that I did NOT post during my vacation from June 15 thru July 14.

Do you get it this time at least?

Ref Khamkhwa #54
[You missed the point...it is applicable only `` if there is an attack on Hindus by Muslims....`` ]

That was cited as an example.

I have always been for equal punishment for all types of ill-mannered louts.

Having railed against Islamic thugs and their sympathizers for their one-sided application of rules, it would be hardly fitting for me to follow the same principles.

Ref temporal #52
[Am unsure if fines ONLY can alleviate such dastardly deeds. ]
Well, can`t hang them all!

[However, am all for this IF this is applied across the board to ALL such (religious/ethnic/racial) incidents AND benefits extended to victims AND their families.

And the fines levied should be proportionately increased to reflect replacement costs of property damage/income-wages lost etc.]
Absolutely. Hit them in their pocketbooks and there will be community action against those who are cooking up the violence. It is not as if the folks don`t know who is doing what and where. They are just afraid to speak out. Give them an incentive and there will be plenty of informers.

Ref Mullah32 #53
[temporal: I am surprised to see you approving of collective punishments. Such a suggestion is to be expected from a half-brained hindutva creep like harimau, but for you to approve it is very surprising. I hope you will give some thought to the logical conclusion of this line of thinking (which is no different than that of a terrorist), and why collective punishments are considered a war crime.]

We are not talking about taking out a bunch of folks and shooting them or bombing villages from the air (like you guys did in Balochistan and continue to do in FATA). Show them the economic consequences of harboring terrorists. You think these louts understand anything else?

temporal: I am surprised to see you approving of collective punishments. Such a suggestion is to be expected from a half-brained hindutva creep like harimau, but for you to approve it is very surprising. I hope you will give some thought to the logical conclusion of this line of thinking (which is no different than that of a terrorist), and why collective punishments are considered a war crime.

temporal-52

You missed the point...it is applicable only `` if there is an attack on Hindus by Muslims....``

DrDr - 51
As much as I despise Harimau,you and all your various heads come a very close second...f*ck off.

Khamkhwa,
HaramiU has no wife and no life either. He admits to hanging around here when he`s on vacation. What a loser!

.
#47 by harimau

This is a very sensible suggestion.

[… If there is an attack on Hindus by Muslims as with Godhra, since there has still been none convicted for that heinous crime, let there be a fine of Rs. 12 million against the Muslims of Godhra. That would pay for the 60 dead at Rs 200,000 each, which was the compensation given by the government. A few of these kinds of punishments, we will see that there is no attack by anybody on anybody else…]


Am unsure if fines ONLY can alleviate such dastardly deeds.

However, am all for this IF this is applied across the board to ALL such (religious/ethnic/racial) incidents AND benefits extended to victims AND their families.

And the fines levied should be proportionately increased to reflect replacement costs of property damage/income-wages lost etc.

#8 by AmericanExpress:
``HN

Religous persons are better than Irreligous


A religous hindu is better than irreligous muslim


a religous muslim is better thana irreligous hindu

Very soon there wouldbe realisation by countries that all social indicators will be better in country where greater % have some religous belief than totally materialistic or agnostic aesthetic social scientology belief system``

Is not the last quoted sentence a ``sceintific`` conclusion of yours? Or, is it some kind of ``revelation``? Or, just some conclusion you arrived at which you would not let others to question or investigate?

If it is ``sceintific`` then it is then are you not using ``sceintology`` itself to criticise it?

-einsteinwallah

Swaminarayan sect disassociates from bandh call

PTI [ THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2002 04:13:03 PM ]

NEW DELHI: The BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha, whose temple in Gandhinagar was the target of a terrorist strike, on Thursday said that it did not support any bandh called over the killings and appealed to the people to maintain peace and unity.

``Bandhs only cause economic losses to the country. Even if a bandh has to be organised, it has to be on behalf of all organisations and not separately. Moreover, it should be symbolic for a few hours or half-a-day aimed at paying respects to the deceased,`` Sadhu Mukund Jiwan Das, head of the Swaminarayan temple in Delhi, said.

He was responding to a question on whether the sect supported the Bharat bandh call given by the Vishva Hindu Parishad and the Shiv Sena.

Recalling that industrialist Dhirubhai Ambani`s children did not allow work to suffer even after his death, Das said, ``the task of nation building must go on.``

Earlier, scores of Swaminarayan devotees alongwith activists of the All India Anti-Terrorist Front paid homage to the devotees and security personnel killed in the Akshardham temple attack by maintaining two minutes` silence, singing devotional songs and chanting Swaminarayan mantra.

Meanwhile, in his message, head of the Swaminarayan sect Pramukh Swami Maharaj Shastri Narayan Swarupdas has appealed to all the people of Gujarat and the rest of the country to maintain peace and unity ``in the wake of this national tragedy.``

Ref Headshrinker #44
[maybe I dont come to this place often enough...]
You stink it up with your all-too-frequent visits.

Ref 12-Head #45
#40 Harami OU
see if you can get some idea behind who these mere (3 )THREE (NOT5 that they said first)in 20s hardly old enough to shave could have been
You could not differentiate beteen Terrorist or die hard brain washed out laws & man on the stret who temporarily got involved in Riots in all riots.

FromRediff this report er saw them praying namaz?What was the NSG force doing?

Akshardham attack: Terrorists or misguided youth?]

So they are NOT terrorists but just misguided youth. Where do youngsters get the misguidance that tells them that killing people in a place of worship is okay? At the local madrassah, that is where!

That same misguidance is what causes people to specifically target Christians in Pakistan. That same misguidance caused the Taliban to blow up the Bamiyan Buddha statues.

That same misguidance caused rioters in Gujarat to attck the train in Godhra.

But I suppose, in your vocabulary, it is NOT misguidance when the Gujarati Hindus took it out on the local Muslims. That would be Hindutva-wadi violence.

Would it be okay with you if Hindu youth trained at a madrassah before they killed Muslims?

Ref Hand-wringing Hindu apologist willing to sacrifice somebody else`s family #37

[Harimau, the cycle of violence and killings must never be allowed to continue so that all of us, including brothers and sisters of Hindus and Muslims can live in peace. It is completely illogical to promote violence of any pretext and then to hope that peace will prevail.

Peace will come to only those who are willing to completely delegimate, speak out against, and work to actively stop killings of innocent men, women, and children no matter what. No excuse, we all have a billion gripes each, can break that law of nature.]

Well, one thing we can do is what the British used to do and what Pakistan still does in the FATAs: levy collective punishment. If there is an attack on Hindus by Muslims as with Godhra, since there has still been none convicted for that heinous crime, let there be a fine of Rs. 12 million against the Muslims of Godhra. That would pay for the 60 dead at Rs 200,000 each, which was the compensation given by the government. A few of these kinds of punishments, we will see that there is no attack by anybody on anybody else.

But then, all of you hand-wringers will be complaining about the victimization of the poor Muslims of Godhra.

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khamkhwa,

maybe I dont come to this place often enough...or this is some kind of a joke..but who ran away with whose wife?:)

Also, how the heck does one pull out that that ``smiley face`` in a post?!...I`m a total computer ignoramus.

Finally, thanks for the reply...it`ll save me the intense displeasure of carrying a conversation with that RSS hindutvadi..:)

harimau

Learn some refinement from Mr. Togadia.

[Calling on all Hindus to make Thursday`s bandh a success, Togadia said: ``The bandh would be peaceful...but then you never know. I am not an astrologer.`` ]

Ref dost-mittar #35
[friend, harimou:
When one decides to enter a religious place or decides to attend a religious ceremony of another religion, it is appropriate and sometimes even obligatory to follow the religious ettiquette and protocol. Thus one must cover one`s head while entering a Muslim or Sikh place of worship and take off one`s shoes before entering Hindu, Sikh or Muslim places of worship. If one has a problem with that, one should not enter such a place.
But participation in rituals have to be voluntary and according to one`s own religious beliefs.]
In this case, Javed asked to attend the ceremony at the temple. The invitation to the wedding certainly did not mention anything about this event scheduled for a couple of days later. My nephew happened to mention his plans to Javed and Javed wanted to come too. Having lived all his life in Tamil Nadu, he certainly would have known about the prohibition against non-Hindus entering the temple but chose to wear Hindu-specific outward religious symbols so he wouldn`t be found out.
The point is: it is possible for people of all faiths to be deeply religious and yet respect each other`s beliefs. Such respect is not disowning your own religion. We accommodated Javed`s wishes by not preventing him from coming to the temple and he accommodated us by not refusing the holy ash from the priest.

Ref Headshrinker #34
[harimou,
who is this sangalik...whatever you keep refering to?!]
There is this character who calls himself Soysauce on Chowk and who claims long-lasting trauma from the possibility that his great-great-grandfather was denied water by a brahmin. (I shall make an exception to my policy of not referring anybody to you for psychiatric advice and strongly recommend that he approach you for counseling).
Since soy sauce is not something used in Indian cooking, I tend to call him karuvattu-kuzhambu or inji-kari-kuzhambu. In all likelihood, his real name is Anbarasan (Love King) or Tamil Mani (Tamil Jewel). I refuse to acknowledge such names and call him by ancient Tamil names such as Maasanamuthu (derived from smashaan-moti), Sangilikkaruppan or Sudalaikkannu.

Ref khamkhwa #38 by
{Shankar
[ who is this sangalik...whatever you keep refering to?! ]
He is the one who eloped with his wife}
After anally violating your mother and sister.

Ref 12-Head #33
[You must be out of your mind.
Do you think this` true terrorism` against innocent people is part of any muslim.Only people of Hindutva in there effort to malign Islam & muslim in (no less intangible terrorism against Islam)keep associating terrorism with Islam.
Islam never in history ever condoned killing of women children or defenceless.
There is vast difference between gunmen & `you & i `forgetting our civic sense to participate in riots, rape ,pillferage & lootings.The former is incorrigible gone case the latter is remediable .And there is nothing wrong in beingApologist or apology ....in fact we must apologise more often as tehzeeb (etiquette)and good manners(akhlaaq) love .]
How wonderful! That DOES explain the killings in the Gandhinagar, Gujarat, temple by MUSLIM gunmen.
How about the following? What is going to be your mealy-mouthed explanation for this?
{Gunmen `execute` Pakistan Christians
The victims were tied up and shot in the head
Unidentified gunmen have shot dead seven people at a Christian charity in Karachi`s central business district, Pakistani police say.
They entered the third-floor offices of the Institute for Peace and Justice (IPJ) and shot their victims in the head.
One other person is in a critical condition.
All those killed were Pakistani Christians.
Both gunmen escaped after the attack in the southern port city which has seen mounting attacks this year on Western and Christian targets.
Police have cordoned off the 12-storey building housing the offices.
Karachi police chief Tariq Jamil said the victims had their hands tied and their mouths had been covered with tape.
The All Pakistan Minority Alliance - a grouping of minority political parties - says it is planning three days of mourning in protest against the latest attack against the Christian community.
``Christians will march on the United Nations in Islamabad to appeal to the international community for help,`` the head of the alliance, Shahbaz Bhatti told BBC News Online.
``We have become increasingly victimised since the launch of the US-led international war on terror. It is, therefore, the responsibility of the international community to ensure that the government protects us.``
The BBC`s Zaffar Abbas reports that the IPJ has never taken part in religious politics in Pakistan.
Run by left-wing Christians, it has focused on helping the poorest sections of society.
It has been operating for the past 30 years, working to obtain basic employment rights for municipal and textile workers and running programmes with local human rights groups.
Police have not said who they suspect is behind the latest killings, but the authorities believe a string of attacks on Christian and Western targets have been carried out by militants opposed to the US presence in neighbouring Afghanistan.
The Archbishop of Karachi, Simeon Pereira, told BBC News Online that it was too early to tell who carried out the killings but said they could be linked to a ``grudge``.
He said police were exploring all avenues, including a possible link with the murder of the charity`s former chairperson, Ivan Moon.
Mr Moon died four months ago in mysterious circumstances. He was found dead in his office after being injected with poison.
``I don`t believe this was a terrorist attack,`` the archbishop said. ``There has been trouble at the institution before. I think the killings are linked to the murder of Mr Moon.``
But he said the attack would undoubtedly raise fears within the Christian community of further violence.
``We have police posted outside our churches day and night. The Christian community is not panicking at the moment, but I don`t know what will happen as a result of the latest killings - people will suspect it was a terrorist attack.``
A witness quoted by Reuters news agency said the gunmen were clean-shaven and wearing shirts and trousers.
Wednesday`s shooting appears to be the first attack on Christians in Karachi, our correspondent notes.
Karachi witnessed an attack on the US consulate in June and a suicide bombing against French naval engineers in May.
The authorities also say militants were plotting to assassinate President Musharraf when he visited the city, and had plans to target US-based fast-food restaurants.
Attacks in the past year on Christians elsewhere in Pakistan have left at least 30 people dead.
When police arrested 21 members of the Islamic militant group, Harakat ul-Mujahideen Al-Almi, this month in connection with the consulate attack, they found plans of Christian facilities in Karachi.
As a result, the authorities fortified some of the sites with sandbags and removed signs from others.

Pakistan attacks:

9 Aug - five nurses die in missionary hopital attack in Taxila
5 Aug - six dead in missionary school attack in Murree
14 June - 11 killed in bomb attack outside US Karachi mission
8 May - Karachi bus blast kills 15
17 March - five killed in Islamabad church grenade blast
October 2001 - 18 killed in Punjab church attack }

Shankar

[ who is this sangalik...whatever you keep refering to?! ]

He is the one who eloped with his wife:)

re: Harimau # 31

Harimau, the cycle of violence and killings must never be allowed to continue so that all of us, including brothers and sisters of Hindus and Muslims can live in peace. It is completely illogical to promote violence of any pretext and then to hope that peace will prevail.

Peace will come to only those who are willing to completely delegimate, speak out against, and work to actively stop killings of innocent men, women, and children no matter what. No excuse, we all have a billion gripes each, can break that law of nature.

Hindu Apologist

harimou,

who is this sangalik...whatever you keep refering to?!

First and foremost, please to accept a very shamefaced author`s apology for the shoddy copy that finally reached chowk. I think my anxiety while wrangling with chowk`s new technologically challenging pathways had something to do with it....and my misplaced password./...etc....all a long list of excuses for the undeniably shoddy work.

That some of my formalistic experiments...and a new chowk page that is insensitive to such subtleties has put me clearly in the dock....where I belong....:)

Some replies:

Pmishra2:

And here is a remark: wouldn`t it have been great if Jimmy had not felt he MUST perform Ganesh Puja? If he could just say - Budhayee ! Subh Ganesh Chaturthi ! and hand a ``social`` gift (I liked that !) and move on!


Actually that was NOT true. I do not know how to explain this...but just as each of us have aunties and grandparents who smother you with excessive if bullying love....like eat eat na....arrey iss umr mein to app pathhar bhi hajam kar jaoge types. Hiral`s mother, a pious and corpulant lady of much love and touching faith, just wanted to include Jimmy in the ritual...i did NOT...and no body else there did either....think that Jimmy was being armtwisted into paying obeisance to a foreign GOD...plus he did it with an amusement that he wore pretty unsubtly....if I might say...which just added to the truth of that entirely genuine tableau of secularism that I saw that night. Jimmy was NOT forced, coerced, or even emotionally blackmailed to do it....and I saw it too as a way he patronised Hiral`s mother....if at all.

Sadna,

Actually this entire piece was in response to the very same question that you ask. I understand by secularism an easy, even lighthearted patronising of other faiths...at best....much like Jimmy`s act. That is why it can be a habit. Once you have a debate, it somehow ends up being defined by the opponent`s points. I thought the same thing about these two opposing isms....rediff and NDTv ....ones....

``The point is a religion-laden secularism is also secularism and we are not quite done with it yet.``

Again this is what I too thought. Religion seems so entwined in our part of the world....that even being atheistic does not allow an individual to stay away from religion....unless he is locked into an airtight capsule with no interraction with the environment.

anarayan,

Precisely therefore on chowk. Its fun to bowl a googly sometimes...besides, there are some voices here that bring a genuine intelligent and sensitive perspective which is valubale...

Verghese,

I understand what you are saying. IN fact, I remember most public festivals to be like that...at least in the public space. There may be cussed old ladies being mean and rude to some of the ``others``...but on a regular basis that is what I often see. But perhaps, NOT officially stating that cannot be now addressed even as an idea worth discusssion...because the the new polarisation of the divide.

Dost-mitter,

I have started off with the profuse apology...please to partake and forgive...:)

I have said here earlier... Jimmy was NOT forced...as in forced...again....but he was patronising a loving but innocently bullying matron...out of affection and regard rather than...fear or even to dodge an embarrassment....

But yes, Garv....and Gaurav...I thought they were headed this way....now it sounds like I told you so....kind of a feeling...u know the fear of excessive noisy unthinking fanning of some somnolent pride...is so much of a double edged weapon....

Paksha Bandhan was a festival about tying rakhees that at least found a new lease of life...after Tagore revived it in Bengal....I thought...maybe somebody could shed more illuminating light on this....:)

Regards

HN

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Ref Hindu apologist #21
[I hope the Central government (not the stupid state government) cracks down hard and makes sure there are NO senseless murders in the guise of ``reprisals.`` This time the government will have no excuse of having been caught by ``surprise.`` No bloody riots must occur, the situation should be controlled, calm restored, and then issues should be solved slowly.
All this can only be done by the Central government. We can`t leave security entirely in the hands of local communalized police. I don`t know what the legal procedures for taking such actions are, but I very much hope the Central government does act hastily.]
Why don`t you offer yourself as a sacrificial bakra for the Islamist thugs before you advise how people ought to behave?
How about sending your sisters and brothers to be killed by Islamist thugs so that you can uphold secularism?

Ref friend #30
{dost-mittar #28 harish:
``Ganpati parade, on the other hand, was revived by Tilak a hundred years ago to galvanise the Hindu community with a distinct communal, rather than nationalist, fervour. ``
Dost, before you pass a judgement on Tilak`s motive, remember the period when it was started. Tilak`s only motive was to revive people through cultural activities...
[I did not like Jimmi being compelled to do the Puja rituals.
``Once religion becomes promiscuous, maybe it`ll become a non-cognizable offence....``]
I don`t look at Jimmy`s participation that way. I have been to Mosques & churches with my friends. Though I didn`t understood the meaning of the rituals, I had no issues repeating whatever they were doing (except eating the meat part). And most of my friends equally participated in Diwali and Holi gatherings (and visited temples with us - which I do only once in a year or two). Best holi I remember was led by a ``malayali catholic friend``, in Bihar, where we, a large group of bachelor engineers, just followed him around, repeating his malayali slogans. He was a pukka catholic otherwise.
Perhaps Jimmy would have been more offended if he reached his friend`s place and than is not invited to join the puja. Just by doing Puja, he didn`t become a hindu.
On a similar tone, I am in Japan this week and visited Shinto shrines. I do not become Shinto when I prayed in a shinto fashion. It was fun. and It was a clean way to identifying myself with the great sea of people around me.}
Let me relate a little incident in Tamil Nadu.
My niece got married recently in Chennai and we all went to visit her in-laws in Madurai because they had taken a vow to perform the wedding ceremony of Lord Sundareswara to Devi Meenakshi in the big temple in Madurai. My nephew`s classmate and best friend Javed, his wife Ayesha, daughter Afrin and infant son Mohammad (no prizes for guessing their religion) accompanied us. Since the temple had a sign saying `Hindus only beyond this point`, I was told the mother-in-law suggested to Ayesha that she might want to wear a bindi on her forehead so there will be no question as to her religion. In any event, after the ceremonious wedding of the god to the goddess, the priest went around handing holy ash (vibhuti) and kumkum (vermillion) to all present and Javed and family had no difficulty accepting it or applying them to their foreheads (including little Afrin`s and infant Mohammad`s). We certainly didn`t want Javed to feel left out of the ceremony when he expressly travelled 300 miles to participate and he certainly didn`t offend the priests` sensibilities by refusing the offering. We all then went around the entire temple and visited every shrine in the large temple complex.
If this is watering down Islam, then Jinnah was right in demanding Pakistan so that Islam could be safe from the kaffirs.
Note to Sangilikkaruppan: I am sure if there was a wedding in your family, you wouldn`t permit a Dali, let alone a Muslim, participate in a private family ceremony having only a remote connection to the wedding happening in a temple. Now, tell me once again how you are only following the lead of the brahmins in keeping the Dalits out of the temples and in beating them to death.

dost-mittar #28 harish:
``Ganpati parade, on the other hand, was revived by Tilak a hundred years ago to galvanise the Hindu community with a distinct communal, rather than nationalist, fervour. ``

Dost, before you pass a judgement on Tilak`s motive, remember the period when it was started. Tilak`s only motive was to revive people through cultural activities...

[I did not like Jimmi being compelled to do the Puja rituals.
``Once religion becomes promiscuous, maybe it`ll become a non-cognizable offence....``]

I don`t look at Jimmy`s participation that way. I have been to Mosques & churches with my friends. Though I didn`t understood the meaning of the rituals, I had no issues repeating whatever they were doing (except eating the meat part). And most of my friends equally participated in Diwali and Holi gatherings (and visited temples with us - which I do only once in a year or two). Best holi I remember was led by a ``malayali catholic friend``, in Bihar, where we, a large group of bachelor engineers, just followed him around, repeating his malayali slogans. He was a pukka catholic otherwise.

Perhaps Jimmy would have been more offended if he reached his friend`s place and than is not invited to join the puja. Just by doing Puja, he didn`t become a hindu.

On a similar tone, I am in Japan this week and visited Shinto shrines. I do not become Shinto when I prayed in a shinto fashion. It was fun. and It was a clean way to identifying myself with the great sea of people around me.

Well, after these elections pakis can say goodbye to their Kashmir aspirations. Ha ha ha ......

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About Gujurat temple: Coming conspiracy theories/justifications.

Modi stage managed it to galvanize the hindu support in the coming elections.

OR

Cyber Jihadis and liberals `understand` the retaliation against fundamentalist hindus.

I think first scenario will surface in few days and will `become` truth.

Prem #21
I agree ... this time around though the best thing going is President Kalam - he can REALLY make a difference ... by being the highly visible and respected face of Muslim India and can take their point of view to the Indian public - apparently he was at the temple recently during his Gujarat visit as President and hit it off with the chief priest.

injured 6 month old baby ... parents missing
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=10127

I hope the Central government (not the stupid state government) cracks down hard and makes sure there are NO senseless murders in the guise of ``reprisals.`` This time the government will have no excuse of having been caught by ``surprise.`` No bloody riots must occur, the situation should be controlled, calm restored, and then issues should be solved slowly.

All this can only be done by the Central government. We can`t leave security entirely in the hands of local communalized police. I don`t know what the legal procedures for taking such actions are, but I very much hope the Central government does act hastily.

Yes my friends religion is responsible for many deaths!
However, the secular wars of the the 18th to the 20th centrury, killed more people then 3 thousand years of religious conflicts!

This is excellent strategic thinking by India. Allies in the Middle-East will go a long way in silencing the BS from Musharraf at OIC meetings and at the UN. And certainly it bodes well for India`s oil supply lines. This is what Americans do well - ignore right and wrong and think self-interest. Good to see India finally learning. Saddam may be a madman, but he has never directly done harm to India -- no reason for India to poke its nose in