Nasreen

You guys are being extrememly harsh on the author. Granted that his piece probably sounds so much better in Urdu, it wasn`t so bad in English. Yes it was a bit lenghty but it still did a great job of capturing the central idea.
For those of us who cannot read Urdu, this version isnt so bad.
Nice job Godot!

simple story of practically every other girl, nothing new. But nice of u to do the translation godot.

and no baba, I am not nooralain. uffffffo.... kitney baar samjhana parey ga.. :(

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Godot:

Yaar you have compromised Quality probably with Quantity in this one. Shafiq is one of my fav, he deserved better.

Literal translation is for scientific and historical journals only. It kills the light humor - a big no no.

Dont get dishearted though.

apologise for the digression; are LadyAna and nooralain the same person? sort of confused with this double id thing...

aamir

soundmeister...you are a troublemaker :)

``Fair enough. So you did not think that this was a good translation, that I did not capture the essence and soul of the story. I think I did.``

``Thanks for the tips, though. When translating, I stick to all 5 points listed.``

Temporal-bhai, bhool jaaiye. The self-proclaimed genius knows all. Who are we mere mortals to offer criticism?

I liked the tips though. Thanks
SM

godot...i have not, unfortunately, because somewhere in the process of moving as often as i have within these past two years...i have misplaced the copy of `Aik Mohabbat Sau Afsanay` that my mother brought back for me sometime ago...i plan to search for it in earnest this weekend...if not, I own a novel written by his wife (I`m not sure that it`s one of her better ones) that I plan to attempt to translate.
I wonder if there is anyone here who lived in Pakistan in the early seventies when AA`s AMSA was being interpreted on PTV. They were quite good realizations, I thought.

Glad that you are neither defensive nor discouraged...and that you know yourself as well as you do :)

noor, #28
I`m neither defensive nor discouraged. I know myself. I did a good job with this translation. Of course, not everyone`s going to like it. There are people who can`t even relate to this story (it makes it even tougher to like it then.) I respect others` opinion, as long as they polite, and they do not necessarily have to be in my favor. But this translation stands, and I stand by it.

And you certainly will see more translations from me. Thanks. [I hope you have started working on Asgfaq Ahmed`s also.]

temporaloo...are you referring to an essay by Gregory Rabassa, who did quite a few Garcia-Marquez translations..or is it another translator?

godot baba...i`m sure his remarks were not meant to discourage you, or make you go on the defensive (arre, that`s what i do, ji!!!)

digressing as always...but his words remind me of my French poetry class...reading Baudelaire`s famous `Les Fleurs du Mal` and underlining every word of French I did not understand, and writing their literal meanings in English...Mme. Francoise saw that and told us we should rely more on our senses and not our dictionaries. I did not last very long in her French Poetry class :(...if there was a point to recalling this memory, i certainly can`t remember what the point was...but anyways...am looking forward to more translations from you.

temporal, #26

Fair enough. So you did not think that this was a good translation, that I did not capture the essence and soul of the story. I think I did.

Thanks for the tips, though. When translating, I stick to all 5 points listed.

Godot:

...friends who know how much this subject interests me have written enquiring why have not commented here…

…simply put…my idea of ‘translation’ is to not only translate the literal ‘meaning’ of a piece of prose or verse, but also to translate its soul or ‘essence’…so the reader who is not familiar with the original language would get a ‘feel’ of what the original must have been…

…thought it would be helpful if you read an excellent essay i had by one of the translators of Garcia Marquez…but have misplaced it and am searching for it (kiran, samina help?)...meanwhile here are some basic tip by Jennifer…even though this primarily deals with poetry perhaps you will find this helpful in your next effort?…

rgds,

t

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Five Tips on Translating Poetry

by Jennifer Liddy

You`ve decided to translate a poem. Maybe you have been studying a foreign language your whole life and want to put your talents to good use. Maybe you just came back from vacation to an exotic country and fell in love with their national poet and you want to recall the romance. Either way, translating poetry is serious business and not to be taken lightly. Your job as a translator is not only to pass the meaning of the poem into another language but to respect and honor its spirit. I don`t mean you need a seance with a thousand candles, begging the poem to breathe your page. I mean that there are some rules to respect when you translate a poem.

1. Stay Close to the Poem.

Read the poem again and again until the words become second nature on your tongue. By doing this, you will be able to feel the rhythm of the poem. You will recognize the pace, the pauses, the beats, the swirls of energy. Write the poem in longhand and make ten copies. Stick these where you can see and read them. Try the bathroom, the kitchen cabinet, or the freezer door, leading to the Ben & Jerry`s. These copies will familiarize you with the poem`s grammatical structure: Where the adjectives are, where there is a break in tenses. Plus, if you put them on that package of Oreo`s, it`ll take you longer to gobble the bag down. You will have to read the poem first!

2. Know the poet.

If you are lucky enough to pick a living poet to translate, write to him or her. Get to know the person; ask him or her questions about the poem. What was the poet thinking when writing the poem? What does the poet think the poem means? Is there any imagery or language that is repeated? Is there anything symbolic from his or her life? What does the poet think of poetry? The more you know about the poet and his or her life, the better able you are to understand the nuances of the poem. Be courteous and grateful. The poet is answering your questions to help you with your translation.

If, however, you choose a poet who has passed on, your job is a little harder. Try and find out as much as you can about the poet`s life. Most countries have national writer`s associations. If they don`t, check the web and university libraries and language departments. Maybe from there you can find other people who knew the poet or can help guide you. Build as many contacts as you can. Be familiar with the poet and you will get a sense for the poem.

3. Go for Grace.

When you translate a poem, your job is to stay as close to the meaning as possible. That said, you also have artistic license to use (not abuse) the meaning to make a clear and graceful translation. Translating slag is an excellent example of when to use artistic license. Some slang has absolutely no meaning in another language. In fact, a direct translation would make the poem fail. In that case, turn the meaning of the slang into its equivalent. Remember, you want readers in your language to enjoy the poem, not marvel at how well you can directly translate words.

4. Be Wary.

This tip is for those of you who think translating takes a few minutes tops. There are some great computer programs that are designed for translation. There are also some excellent dictionaries and phrase books. But do not rely on them to give you the end-all-be-all translation. You must do the footwork. You can use these computer programs and dictionary translations as a guide. They may help get to the bones of the poem but your job is to put heart and live language on those bones.

5. Take a Deep Breath.

When you finish a translation, sit tight for a few days, maybe even a week, before you go over it. Take some time to think about something else, in your own language. Then come back and see where the gaps and the goodies are.

Translating a poem is a lot like writing a poem yourself. You have to know what you want to say. You have to feel what you want to say. You have to be focused. There are a thousand other jobs that are easier, better paid, and eyesight-saving, but translating has its own glories. Putting poems into another language is one of the best ways to share culture, honor poets, and remind us that we can transcend geography. Do your best.

Gidiot
I have neither the time nor the energy to argue with menopausal old lechers. My single point is you are bad at translations because you do it so literallly that it makes no sense standing alone.
I STILL don`t get the donkey references. I thought it was PIGS that were unislamic.
Anyway, keep writing. Nice thing about the new chowk is it`s so hard to find anything, so I can lose your stuff easy.
Muchas Smoochas
SM

...godot…interesting story…but, because it was a literal translation, it didn’t really gel in some places…

Zafar.
:-)....you do the same!

Godot - this brought back a lot of good memories of being read Shafiq-ur-Rahman when I was younger (HimaqateiN)....oh, nostalgiaaaaa...many thanks.

As for the rest, I agree with Nooralain. (Rock on, ma`am.)

Regards

godot.
i see your point of what this story is about...but interpretations are always different..and yes..the irony is in the fact that she does end up marrying someone his age (younger than her)...when they both could not allow themselves to express their love for each other. They both made a conscious choice not to. :)

nooralain, #19

Interestingly enough, I viewed the story quite differently than your view of ``opportunities missed and choices made, more than accident and chance.``

My angle on this story is this:

Here we have two people attracted to each other, and who come to know each other by chance. The girl is ``Apa`s`` classmate and friend, the boy, therefore, can never even imagine that he is allowed to fall for his older sister`s friend.

The boy is your best friend`s younger brother. To say you love him would be to break all the strict rules of the culture that existed at the time (or probably still does.) The girl knew, but could not bring herself to say that to the boy (who couldn`t even imagine such a thing.)

The greatest irony of this story is that the boy`s best friend, a person his own age and therefore younger than the girl, marries the girl!

This is a story of a love that never was. It is all captured quite beautifully in this Shafiq-ur-Rehman`s story.

Godot,
`ello there! thank you for responding to my queries...i agree that this is quite a sad story. For me, it has to do with opportunities missed and choices made, more than accident and chance, which makes the ending ironic.
Yes, the nuances in Urdu literature are definitely difficult to translate into English (or any language)...this is more so the case for poetry than it is for fiction, but Urdu fiction is so poetic and melodic at times, it`s difficult to capture that completely. I`m glad you clarified how it was in Urdu...it`s just that for me it was confusing in that it wasn`t easy to determine when the narrator was thinking aloud, as opposed to it remaining in the past...I find myself doing this often when I write in English...but I guess I`m still from the old school in using punctuation, or something that will indicate a change...and perhaps this is not what is done here. Khair.....
If you do make it to an Urdu Bazaar before I do...let me know, perhaps I may `mangwao` a few books from you? :)
regards, noor

soundmeister, #15

Hello, again, Mr Jackass,

I see that you have a brain not even half of a donkey`s. So, why am I not shocked that you didn`t get the donkey reference in my post.

Criticism from you? I see, so you`re rather under the delusion that I really care about the opinion of a pathetic, pitiful, ignoramus such as yourself, a donkey who has deluded himself into believing that he runs with the grace of a stallion! It`s time for you to wake up and smell the hay, Mr Ass.

And, yes, I`m a 48 year old who has a crush on a 20-year old girl from Karachi. And your problem with that is...???

nooralain, #8

Hi, there,

Re: ``maazi`` and ``haal`` narration: Yes, that`s from the original.

Re: ``sadness just won`t leave me``: That`s in present. The narrator is setting the reader up for things to come from the past. I originally had ``wouldn`t`` but changed it to ``won`t``. Don`t know why.

Re: ``Confident that Apa isn`t back from her college yet``: The narrator is thinking out loud, he`s in the past and we are reading his thoughts. This is a fairly close translation from the original. The whole story is about this man who has gone back into his past and, as a ``kid,`` is talking to himself. This is a soliloquy about a wonderful but yet sad memory, with some philosophy of life thrown in. I thought it was done quite well in the original, and that I was able to capture the narrator and his narration in my translation.

Re: ``Walked-in`` vs ``walked in``: I don`t know. I thought ``walked-in`` worked better in a narration. I did try ``walked in``, but it didn`t work for me.

It would probably help if you read `Nasreen` in Urdu, and then compare it to my translation. When translating, my objective is to not to lose the essence and the spirit of the story; the rest I fill in with my own biases and writing style. If you read and compare both versions of Nasreen (original and my translation,) you`ll see what I mean.

I will be shopping nothing but Urdu books in Pakistan. I am sure to pick Ashfaq Ahmed. Looking forward to you translating a story by him.

PS: Ignore 12-Head. He`s mentally ill.


Pankaj, #12

Thanks, Pankaj. Can`t disagree with you. This is a recount, a recollection. But I think the author does a tremendous job in narrating a love that never was, a love story that has nothing but irony written all over it. I thought it was quite beautifully done in Urdu, and that I was able to tell the story in English as I read it, well enough.


Sac, #13

Thanks, sac. I know, this story did not appeal to many people (Mera Sahib was 10 pages, as opposed to Nasreen`s 8, but people generally liked the other one better.) But I liked this story a lot, and thought many people (mostly men) would also be able to relate to it.



Banjara, #14

Thanks for taking the time out to read this translation. I thought I captured the nuances of this story quite well. I`m sorry that you didn`t feel that way. Translated, this story was only 8 pages, no lengthier than any of my other translations.

Err...godot-- you don`t take criticism too well do you!
Can`t really blame you, it`s this backpatting culture at chowk, where everyone thinks his work is rather more than what it`s worth because of the inordinately decent reponses. Temporal, I blame thee!!!

In any case, I didn`t get the ``donkey`` references.... is that something I`m supposed to be offended at?

If you are a yuppie good for you- I envy you your SUV. But didn`t you let it slip sometime ago that you were a poor 48-year old sod with an unhealthy crush on 20-year old Karachi writers :)))

I don`t care how offended you are buddy. But stop translating- it`s an insult to those writers you aim to flatter.

Godot

Translating the `` gulabi urdu`` of Shafiq-ur-Rahman or Shaukat Thanvi is not an easy task, and it shows in your translation which fails to capture the nuances and shades of subtle and yet not so subtle humour. The length of the article also does not help your cause.It`s a great effort nevertheless.Personally, I would suggest translating Col. Mohammad Khan from his famous `` Bajang aamad`` which is more earthy and identifies with the Pakistani humour.

Regards.

Godot

If it weren`t for you, some of us wouldn`t get to know the literature in Urdu. The story, I felt, was more like a diary. A lot of Desis can relate to the context of the story. But I wouldn`t say that the story had anything that would put it a class apart. It was more like a personal account narrated in a readable manner. Not a bad read in conclusion but not extraordinary too. You might want to edit few sentences here and there as in,

``He was so bad in balling that people fell off their chairs laughing. The other team scored tons of runs off him``

``balling`` should have been bowling.

Godot sahib:

This one was a little too long and this seems to have affected the quality somewhat. Not bad though.

later
-sac

oy 12-head ka bachcha...when you decide to use the brain that Khuda/Allah/Ishwar gifted you with...perhaps then you will make sense. Until then...please concern yourself with your own pathetic self...much obliged!

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nooralain, #8

Thanks, noor. No, no, I don`t mind at all. I`m glad you got back with your criticism. Now, you and I can have a good and a meaningful discussion about translating from another culture (in this case, Pakistani to Western) and language, and the translator`s bias and writing style.

Your post merits a thought-out response, and that would take time. However, I am going away for the weekend, will be too busy hanging out, and will not be checking Chowk or doing any Chowking until perhaps Monday. When I get back, I will re-read your post and then will post my response to it. Au revoir!

godot...
reading this again...i can see that the blending of `m`aazi` and `haal` tenses does work in some places...for example when the narrator is thinking aloud in the present, then the narration continues in the past...but were these tenses combined in the Urdu text as well?
Here`s an example I was unsure of:
[I joined the kids to play with them. But the sadness just won’t leave me. Why are you fooling yourself, I said to myself, why don’t you just admit that this news has made you very sad.]
I want to read this as `I joined the kids to play with them. But the sadness just wouldn`t leave me...` because the narration in the past continues until the next sentence. It just made me curious as to whether `the sadness just won`t leave me` was in the present tense in the Urdu.
Another place where I was jarred...
[I liked it when I smelled nice while balling. It freshened me up. Confident that Apa isn’t back from her college yet (I was really scared of her,) I sent Bunno to Apa’s room and asked her to fetch that long blue bottle of perfume for me. But Bunno came back with a message: Apa wants me in her room. “Why?” I asked her. “I don’t know,” was her answer.]
This is all in the past except for `Confident that Apa isn`t back from her college yet`....which doesn`t quite fit, don`t you think?
These are just a couple...but just so you know in the process of revising to look out for incongruities...
[I was cursing the moment I walked-in to the garden]--why is there a hyphen between walked and in?!
Hope you don`t mind my `nit-picking`--but you did ask!
noor
P.S...I will definitely attempt to translate one of AA`s stories as soon as I can find 1) my book, and 2) my handy-dandy firoz-ul-lughat!

soundmeister, #5
Hahahaha....hehehehe!!!! Good one, coming from you!!! That`s compliment!!! Errr...didn`t you hate my translation of Premchand as a ``sham`` and ``spoof``, and now it`s ``short and sweet``??!!!

You with a taste? You prove that quite well in this post of yours!!!

soundmeister, #5

Hello, Mr Donkey (I`d call you an ass, but ``donkey`` brings a better image of you; I`m certain that you look like one), this is a follow-up to my last post to you.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Re: You have taste: Well, That`s like saying a donkey runs with the grace of a stallion!

Re: I`m a yuppie masquerading as a writer: You are half right. I`m a yuppie alright. I live in beautiful suburb in a very artsy-fartsy house, have a backyard that looks like it`s right out of Town & Country magazine, drive an expensive SUV (quite aggressively, mind you,) go to museums, drink red wine with my dinner, watch 16x9 HDTV, and wear Calvin Klein products. You should sometimes come and see how I look and live. That should kill you with envy!!!

Now, if you have a half a brain as a donkey, which you may look like but it doesn`t mean you have as much a brain as that poor animal, you`d stay away from me.

Godot, you poor jerk.
Stop translating perfectly good stories into your unique brand of pidgin English. Spare us, that one percent or less of chowk readers with taste.
If you haven`t got the idea yet, you SUCK.
At least Premchand was short and sweet. This is interminable.
And just what the hell is a word like ``guesstimate`` doing in a literary translation?
My feeling is you`re just a pathetic yuppie masquerading as a serious writer. So what`s new.

nooralain, #1
Thank you so much, noor. I wish you were more specific about the typos and especially about the jarring sentences. It would help me improve on my writing. I haven`t read (or even heard of) Ashfaq Ahmed. Would love to see you translate one of his stories for Chowk.

I loved the ending of Nasreen as well. It sums me up pretty much.

Subroto, #2
Thanks, Subroto. Yes, I agree with ``bowling``. It just goes to show you my unfamiliarity with cricket. Originally I had ``bowling``, but changed it to ``balling`` because ``bowling`` created an image for me of a bowling alley, you know, 9 pins, and I thought that was wrong for cricket!

Khamkhwa, #3
Khamkhwa, or should I say ForNoReason, (love your alias, btw) that was a literal translation. I didn`t like it either, but couldn`t get around it. How did you like the story? Don`t worry about me being in deep shit. Always am. Trouble is my middle name!

[ I took the car and ran fast to the house] :)

Wait till temporal sees that and the ``say salaam`` and the ``balling``
and the ``stiffed`` stuff. Man.. you are in deep shit. :0)

Wonderful, just keep them coming. One suggestion shouldn`t it be ``bowling`` instead of ``balling`` ?
-
Subroto

godot..
i haven`t read this story in Urdu, but this appears to be a good translation..flows well. watch out for typos and tense changes...most places it was appropriate, in some places it`s jarring. Other than that..a nice read...especially liked the end.
Do you have any of Ashfaq Ahmed`s stories perchance? `Ek mohabbat sau afsanay`? Am searching for my own copy. . .would love to either translate or see some of those translated.
keep at it!
noor :)