Silk Route

Tahmed32

Many many theories have been put forth on the origins of Dravidians. You have missed out on one which co-locates them with the Australian aborigines and the Maoris of NZ.

Secondly far from laying too much in store on epics that claim that Dravids were banished to the South of India, my eye tells me that an element of Dravidian exists in every denizen of the Indian subcontinent and that includes modern-day Pakistanis, Bangladeshies ( Biharis, Bengakis, UPites, Punjabies everyone no one is left out) etc. The element varies only by degrees. Secondly if Dravidian were to mean an ethnic group - it certainly would not refer to all the South Indian groups. There are Southerns groups which are way fairer and taller than Biharies, Punjabies that I have seen and yet they speak Dravidian or mixture of Dravid and Sanskrit.

Thirdly the notion of curly haired Dravids is also misplaced. Anthroplological studies make them out to be straight-haired. It is the Adi-Dravids or the people who predate Dravids that are shorter in stature , darker and curly haired -these are the tribals such as Bhils, Gonds, Santals etc of today.


There is a strong theory on the origins of Dravids from so-called ELAM which by the way was an ancient Persian kingdom. The scholars who put forward this theory claim that subsequent to invasions of Persia from the north from places such as Georgia and the intermingling of these people with the Persians , the Persians started developing physical characteristics that are considered the norm for Iranians today.

Further to comparisons with African civilisations - these have been pastoral in nature with cattle rearing people living a nomadic lifestyle. The Dravidian civilisation is more urban in nature with life centered around urban setllements or so-called ``Urs``. They also had well developed literary and arts, so much so that some of the Tamil literary classics date back a few thousand years.

Regarding the Dravidian rulers - they maintained a strong maritime presence in South East Asia and were responsible for the spread of Indian culture to places such as Malaysia and Indonesia. So much so that Arab civilisation could not gain a foothold until the natural decline of the local dynasties founded by these Dravidian rulers.Trade with Phonecians, Greeks , Persians and Romans was well estabalished based upon literary writings , anthropological studies and findings of coins and other artifacts.

SameerJB #92 You write that ``Drividian are generally believed to have come throuh Bolan pass, a soutthern route, termed as mediterrenean people somtime after the last ice-age.`` I assume that would be about 10,000 years ago. After reading your note, I checked this on the internet with a google search. However, while there was lots of interesting literature on the history of the Dravidians, the discussion never went back before the Moenjodaro/Harrapa civilization, or around 4000 BC. And even about these civilizations the authors noted that not much is known other than what we can infer from their cities. This is because the script of the Harrapan people has not been deciphered as yet (there being no Rosetta stone for their language).
Thus, the best guess I could make was that the ancestors of the Dravidians came to the subcontinent as part of the first wave of human migrations out of Africa, which is placed at 2 million years ago.
Given that I have never heard of any discussion on where the dravidians came from, I was only trying to infer the best I could from the broader history of the spread of mankind on this planet.
I would therefore appreciate if you could provide the source of your information regarding general agreement that the Dravidians came a mere few thousand years ago (at the end of the last ice age) into India via the Bolan pass. And that the nagas were here before them.

This is hilarious. reminds me of the kites we used to catch coming from Pakistan during Basant.
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Pak electioneering strays into India

Gurdaspur, October 8
Electioneering for the October 10 elections in Pakistan spilled across the border when an air-borne election symbol tied with gas balloons floated across the Indo Pakistan border and landed in the border town of Narot Jaimal Singh across the Ravi river in the district last night.

According to reports lodged with the police today, a group of youths during routine morning walk came across a model of a bicycle wheel on which were tied 90 gas balloons. The wheel made of thermocol with 50 light indicators attached to a battery was found by the youth in a paddy field 1 km away from Narot Jaimal Singh.

According to the youths lights of different colours were attached to the thermocol cycle wheel.The name of Mian Mohammed Riaz, candidate of the Pakistan Muslim League contesting the national Assembly election from Sialkot constituency was written in Urdu on Cycle besides his photograph and symbol was also attached to it. The wheel later was taken to Narot Jaimal Singh police station where the people queued up to have a closer look.

According to the police the cycle wheel floated across the border and despite the lights was not noticed by the security personnel manning the border. This indeed was a serious security breech as the intruder floated across into Indian territory unnoticed.

The wheel with the help of the gas balloons hovered around Narot Jaimal Singh and when some of the gas balloons burst it came down into a paddy field where it was noticed in the morning. UNI

I came to Chowk after many days and luckily tipped over (by this thread) into this discussion. Some wonderful talk about punjab and its people. The quote worth quoting again is by Sameer Singh Sahib ``when land speaks, everybody listens``. I think this line says a lot by itself. Being a kisaan putt I understand its significance very well. When I think about my feelings about my mother language, my family my friends, the landscape of Punjab naturally comes attached to them. It is almost like I am as much a product of my parents as of my land...I am also conected to everyone else who is a product of the same landscape like grains in a heap(bohal).

When you stire the sawaah, sawaah has to rise...when the topics of religion, history and atrocities by one another come, everyone ends up stiring the sawaah...even knowing it will land in his own hair but overall my observation is that Sikhs have a lot softer corner for Pakistanis than Pakistani can ever realize. I think it has to do with the shared past, land, language, culture, water.... these things go a long way.

You guys were talking abour Pakistan East of lahore and I was thinking about all the villages and places my elders mention from that area....Burkee, KohriaN, Jaahman, Ghaniye ke, Bhadhana, Ghurkee etc. My whole family history is confined in the land strip between Amritsar and Lahore. I always wanted to find some people from this belt of Pakistani Punjab but have so for found only one person from Baghbanpura...which is great because our family hakeem was in Baghbanpura before partition and my father has lot of memories of traveling(walking or on ghoRhi) through Ghurkee, Burkee to baghbanpura...particularly one trip..one of the last ones when my father was very sick in the summer of 47 and my dada ji took him to baghbanpura to the hakeem. They were half caught in a riot in that trip and luckily escaped.

As an advertisement, anyone from East of Lahore around here reading anonymously?

SameerJB # 95.

Man, you amaze me. Is there any field, that you don`t have a store full of knowledge on. You must be an avid reader. I would love to meet you and talk to you in person.

Romair

Regarding Ranjeet Singh`s height, he may have been short but not as short as you imply. He was a successful general and led his armies to victory against much powerful armies. You had to have a certain height to fight the physical battles. He had however lost one of his eyes to small pox as a child.

But inspite of all these handicaps he single handedly transformed a rag tag army of Sikhs to the most powerful nation of Northern India. As long as he was alive the British although coveted the richness of Punjab, dared not venture in that direction.

Like Shah Mohemmed show wrote,

``Shah Mohammeda Singha ne goriaN de wang nibuaN lahu nichar ditte...
...per ik sarkar bajoN fauja jit ke anth nuN hariyaN ne``

dost-mittar: Gurdaspur was a tehsil of district Sialkot in 1947 and before. It became district after partition. So we both are right here. Many places have new names and many past tehsils are now districts. In Pakistan, former tehsils Toba Tek Singh, Vehari, Pakpattan, Hafizabad, Mandi Bahauddin are all districts now. Karachi is actually composed of five districts now although people do not distinguish themselves from Karachi west or Karachi east.
Alexander height is well-known fact. He was short and so were Ranjit Singh and Hazrat Ali. Porous is believed to be very tall man, not sure about 7 ft. I am not sure if he was Jhelumi or just a ruler there because his brother or nephew ruled the area between Chenab and Ravi and believed to have cooperated with Alexander against Porus. After the war, Alexander favored Porus, perhaps after a peace deal, over his kins and gave everything between Jhelum and Ravi to Porus.
It is interesting the place where Porus-Alexander was took place is called Sikandarpur or someting like that but not after local hero.
tahmed: [The ancestors of the dravidians must have come to india much, much earlier, about 2 million years ago. ] That is not true. Drividian are generally believed to have come throuh Bolan pass, a soutthern route, termed as mediterrenean people somtime after the last ice-age. The people in sub-continent before Dravidians were aboriginies, called munda people, because of the nale given to the language they spoke. The nagas are other hill tribes are perhaps the earliest people in sub-continent.

dost-mittar/RLeanord: Please see post #56 regarding the origins of Sunil Dutt. I think he visited his village when Vajpayee visited Lahore.

Rohtas is a gigantic fort, outside Jehlum, towards the side while travelling towards Pindi. People actually live inside it, even now, I believe.

Since we are on Punjab`s trivia: Is is true that the original Jehlumi, Mr. Raja Porus was actually seven feet tall, and Sikander-e-Azam was five and a half feet tall. And is it true that the famous Sikh ruler Ranjit Singh was actually vertically challenged, around four or so feet tall?

ajeet #88 Actually the chinese and the american indians are from the same basic stock that first migrated to central asia as part of the original human emigration out of africa around 2 million years ago. The american Indians migrated from north eastern asia quite recently, around 10,000 years ago, to the americas (at around the end of the last ice age, before which the way to the americas was effectively blocked by the ice age). The ancestors of the dravidians must have come to india much, much earlier, about 2 million years ago.
Thus, coming to our hypothetical case of a north-south himalayas: in this case humans would have continued their migration from africa to china and down to india. The big question is, when would they have first entered india. It would presumably be quite early. And the earlier they migrated, the closer they would be to the descendants of dravidians (i.e. darker skins and slighter physical frames) in the subcontinent today. Since looks would be dictated by climate. The big difference would be that instead of the aryans, turks etc. pouring in from the west over the past few thousand years, this ``aboriginal`` stock would now have to contend with chinese who would presumably have proved as vigorous as the aryans in battle with the locals. And so you are right: India would probably be seen as a rich chinese province over the past few thousand years, with the polyglot population being various shades of chinese-``dravidian`` rather than aryan-dravidian as it is today.

dost-mittar: Sunil Dutt is from Jhelum or Pind Dadan Khan, not from Rawalpindi but Rawalpindi is the unofficial capital of Potwar region and Sunil Dutt might have spent some time there. [Two lyricists, Anand Bakhshi and Shalendra were from Rawalpindi, Dilip Kumar, Kapurs from Peshawar, Manoj Kumar from Abbotabad, Dev Anand/ Rajendra Kumar from Sialkot]
RLeonard: The Brohi area is just across Indus river to the west from Sindh. Many of the Sindhi tribes are Balochi tribes settled in Sindh and therefore, must have some influence form Brohi language. However, Sindhi is considered a Sanskrit derived, belonging to Prakrits family of languages, just as Saraiki and Punjabi. Good points about Sikkim and Bhutan. They are indeed very scenic places. I guess still the distance to noetheast from Bombay will be more than coming to Pakistani northern areas besides no language barrier. Bhutan is a good place to spend a whole summer. Once I met a Bhutaneese visitng to Bhutan from NY. I asked him if he can bring Bhutaneese stamps for me. He brought back a beautiful collection of stamps, perhaps the most beautiful stamps in the world after Australian coral reef collection of life under sea.

Sameerjb,

`Believe me, Pakistan has so much to offer to Bollywood movie makers, that they might desert the usual settings in Shimla and Ooti altogether. `

I don`t know about that, with all the world available for shooting, Indian producers still make use of the local scenry. However I do agree, that considerable number would have used the stark beauty of the northwestern mountains. As it is they have used what ever is available whether it is Afganistan or Europe, USA or Japan, Australia or Singapore. What is needed is a co-operative government and friendly people.

Tahmed, #82

Interesting line of thought about the population of sub continent if the
himalayas were oriented differently. How ever there is one flaw with that argument.

The difference between the americas and India would still be that whereas americas were seperated from the old world by thousands of miles of open ocean, India would still be contiguas to rest of Asia. Plenty of people from southern china would have crossed over along the coast or sailed along the coastline.

Sameer #84

Great to hear about places such as Hunza. Regd. Shimla and Ooty , there are other places in India and Sikkim that have not been exploited yet by the plagiarist brigades from Bollywood and I am referring to Garhwal, Kumaon, Sikkim, Panchgani, Mabaleshwar, Kodai etc.

Regd. Brohi, it is now more akin to Baluchi than any Dravidian langauge based on reports, some Baluch even claim that Brohis are originally Baluch . The last vestiges of Dravidian language seem to be the counting numbers and that too upto four - this I am not sure if it relates to Sindhi or Brohi because some scholars claim that Sindhi language also shares some similarity with Dravidian languages. Another point to note is that Tamil is probably the only Dravidian langauge that tries to retain its basic elemenst all the other languages in the SOtuh have been influenced heavily by Sanskrit while retaining their scripts.

There is one big reason why Pakistan may be a hit with Hindu pligrims from India - it paradoxically houses some of the most sacred sites, however this requires some great packaging from the Pak govt.


Dost-Mittarji

Are you a Mohyal? I believe that Sunil Dutt`s ( Bollywood) family hails from Pind Dadan Khan.

Pardesi: I am upset for not being considered the honorary title of virtual Sikh on your list, although Radiopanjab in e-mails refers to me as Sameer Singh........:-) Good to have your input here. Actually, this is one of the best discussion I have noticed in a while beause it is about land and when land speaks, everybody listens. Land does not have any religion or playing politics, it is more like science; wht you see is what there is to see.
The photogenic beauty of mountain is well known due to contrasts in the picture and this fact is well exploited in our formula desi movies. Almost always, hero/ heroine goes to Ooti or Shimla to sing a song. Believe me, Pakistan has so much to offer to Bollywood movie makers, that they might desert the usual settings in Shimla and Ooti altogether. I do not understand why we do not jump on this golden opportunity to attarct people from India as tourists and offering business opportunities. A ten minute scenic background of couple of songs is a free tourism advertisement when a movie goes all over the world chasing desi population.
Pakistan should also quickly develop Brohi speaking areas in Balochistan targeting at the fast growing per capita income of dravidian south India. Where else can dravidian speaking people find a historical stronghold of dravidian culture with very different geographical setting than south India?
And Sikhs of course have many great reasons to visit Pakistan. What do you think Pardesi? Next chiefminister of Punjab is most likely to be from your father`s neighborhood. Pervez Elahi is a Jat from Gujrat and his family enjoys excellent relationship with Sikhs. Ooooops I must stay away from politics here. I was goingt o write something but will pass for some other time.

sameerJB #78 I dont think it is certain that the subcontinent`s population would have been chinese (rather than the polyglot that exists today) if the subcontinent had rammed the asian mainland at an angle whereby the himalayas were north south (giving passage from the north) and the northwestern approaches were blocked. The way human migrations seemed to have taken place (per current generally accepted anthropology as I understand it) is as follows:
9 million years ago: the ancestors of mankind descended from the trees in east africa. In the millenia following that, started walking on two legs, and started travelling greater distances - thus requiring better cooling system for body, and so lost body hair. To compensate for consequent exposure to ultraviolet rays in these regions, developed dark skin. Note: apes have a white skin under their fur, and so (per latest issue of Scientific American) probably our ape-like ancestors did too: I will come to what all this has to do with the Indian population in a minute.
2 million years ago (?): humans migrated out of Africa - to Europe, to Central Asia to the Middle East, to the subcontinent, and on to southeast asia. (this is generally accepted today, the alternative theory of humans evolving separately in different parts of the world being now largely rejected). Those migrating to colder regions re-developed light skins. Those migrating to warmer regions (like ancestors of Dravidians to India) maintained their dark skins.
Past few thousand years: people former colder regions of central asia migrate to the subcontinent, giving rise to today`s polyglot population.
IF the western passages had been blocked to the ancestors of the Dravidians, presumably they would have stayed put in the middle east or else gone to central asia. India would have been unpopulated (like the americas) UNTIL further migrations took place much later (around the same time as asians migrated across alaska to the americas.
Thus: Indians in India would have been from the same stock of people as the American Indians! So: geography determines not only history, but also anthropology and culture and race.

sameerJB #78 I should add to the final line of my post below that geography has TILL NOW determined history, culture, race etc. Now, with distance being dead, and geographical barriers rendered irrelevant by modern transport and communication, and people increasingly living in climate controlled environments, we may be seeing the end of geography as a determinant of the destiny of humans. We are on our own. And given how incapable we are of thinking of our long run interest, our future is as uncertain as it was when the subcontinent rammed asia 50 million years ago.

Romair #77 I doubt if towns (like Jhelum) around GT road will stop flourishing anytime soon - currently, GT road I understand (havent been on it in recent years, although at one time it was my regular path from home in Rawalpindi to hostels in Lahore) is very popular: it is a double road now like the motorway, the toll is much less (under Rs 100 I think vs. Rs 300? for the motorway), AND it is 70 km or so shorter between Lahore and Pindi than the motorway. A friend who dealt with transportation projects at my place of work once mentioned how building or widening of roads generally ends up increasing the traffic over time as superstructure catches up with infrastructure. Or something like that. So, there is hope that this white elephant motorway will actually prove to be of some good in someday.

SameerJB # 67

Sameer sahib, I apologize for not interacting as much as I really want to due to business travels. However, the topic is too interesting and let me put my 2 cents into it.

Number of Sikh interactors is not that low considering the fact that we are only 2% of indian population and 1.5% of overall sub-continent. Now, take Dost-Mitter, Harpreet, Dulla Bhatti, Hari Inder, Stuka and Ruhi (virtual Sikhs), and I guess we are quite fairly represented here :).

Whenever I see my dad (85 now) he still wants to know all the KaRRakedar (hot) news I have read about pakistan or the towns around his town Makewal (Gujrat). The towns our relatives come from are Mundi Bhawddin, Mangat, Kuthiala, Ratowal, Kot and few more.

Interesting conversations with him are around the topic of relations between Hindu/Sikhs and muslims. He tells me that there were only 200-300 Hindu/Sikhs in out small village amongst 3300 or so muslims. However, he swears that no one had ever heard of any riots or problems before 1946 or so. He tells me that many times our women folks just took their GhoDDis all alone to other villages and there was absolutely no risk or danger. His best KauDDi (Kabbadi) buddies were all muslims. It’s true, he tells me, that we did not share food with muslims at the time, but we all used to take care of each other’s problems as one extended family. when we left Pakistan in March’47, before train massacres started, his muslim friends accompanied him up to Lahore station just in case. When my dad took yatri trip in 1982 to pakistan, he very much wanted to go to see his village, but could not deviate from the prescribed plan. However, he was so excited when he came back from the trip as if he has been to another planet (He had been once again to his beloved Lahore and Gurdawaras).

This is what hurts me when I see interactions between indian and Pakistanis. We are same people who had no religious issues before 1947 and here we are behaving like enemies. As soon as adult supervision was about to end, we started to behave like rascal kids who are determined to destroy each other. The fault, in my humble opinion, is with muslim league and their separatist movement. BJP etc. are hindu reaction and not the prime culprit. In 1947, if BJP/RSS/Jansangh had as much following as they have now, very few muslims would have been left in India after partition. This ofcourse does not mean that they will not be successful in hurting India almost as much as jamatees have hurt pakistan.

Sameer sahib, I hope that this outpouring does not start rehashing of the whole partition history once again. We need to accept where we are and not dream about where we could have been. Unfortunately, our people are too bright for their own good. Our memories are too sharp, convictions are too strong, our ambitions are way higher than our capabilities, and forgiveness is not in our blood. Odds are pretty good that we might destroy each other and become once again “white men’s burden”.

Regards.

ajeet/temporal: Gliding is definitely a lot of fun. Very peaceful, and not too difficult to learn. However it has one problem: one cannot stay up in the air for too long, and thus has to remain in a confined area.

The best way to travel the Indus would be in a slow Cessna type airplane, from one end to the other, at a few hundred feet (if possible), landing every three hours or so. I have done it, over a few areas, in little patches. Had the .com crash not occured, I had planned to do the whole river. I wonder if anyone has ever actually filmed it from one end to the other, from the air, at close range. Imran Khan`s book is the best pictoral of the river I have seen, so far.

tahmad: The M-2 highway is deinitely a white elephant, at the moment. I hope it does have a similar future to Islamabad. In the original plan, industries were supposed to pop-up around it, making it viable. That never happened. Maybe it will happen, when Pakistan is connected north to south, through the completed M highway system.

The upper middle class likes it, because it makes travelling easir. But for normal Pakistanis, with no transportation budget, rural development and farm to market roads would have been better. Interestingly, while its future success will result in areas around it being more development, it could result in the downfall of cities like Jehlum etc. These cities are on the main GT road, and make a lot of money from the traffic on that road.

dost-mittar: You are right mostly except there is not much of Pakistan east of Lahore. Lahore is on the east bamk of river Ravi. Only districts east of Ravi are Qasur, Lahore and Sahiwal. Famous Pakpattan, formerly Ajodhan is near the border in Sahiwal and very rvered place for Sikhs due to the shrine of Baba Farid. Before partition Sikhs dominated agriculture lands between Ravi and Chenab such as Sheikhupura, Gujranwala, Hafizabad, Narowal and Sialkot and parts of area between Chenab and Jhelum such as Gujrat and Mandi Bahauddin.
tahmed: The geography not changed the history but made the history. It would not be a too wild guess that how we look like, what we eat our weather resulted from east-west Hinalaya divide. Even much smaller east west divide like Vindhyachal in India made a big north south difference. Without north south Himalaya, almost certainly south chinese would have migrated to India and not the Arians, Scythians and Huns from the west. We would have been more tropical, Malay type people with Malaysia and Indonesia probably remained occupied by aboriginies. Afghanistan would have been like Asian steppes and so on.
ajeet: Intersting theory about buried fossil fuel under Hinalaya, north of Assam. You must also consider the pressure of buckling under Asian plate. It would have converted gas into liquid and more likely compressed the rock pockets containing oil. The chance of diamonds is more likely considering the pressure on the organic fossils. In northern pakistan, we do have few small diamond mines.
Mardan is very fertile piece of land in the middle of arid land mass, almost like San Joakin valley in california. Almost all the tobacco in Pakistan comes from thos area, because Punjabi tobacco is mostly consumed locally in hukkas. I read couple of days ago that federal government makes about 38 billion rupees from tax on tobacco. Despite this richness, most peolpe are pretty poor in Mardan and rely on military service as Romair has pointed out. The case of Mardan is equally powerful as that of Karachi to have bigger share of income from their district.
The Kabul river passes south of Mardan and Indus to the east, with Kabul river falling into Indus at attock. The flat, Punjab-like land of Mardan, north of Peshawar, south of Chitral-Malakand and southwest of Swat does indicate either strong weathering like glaciers flattening the land or rivers changing directions and depositing rich silt in that area to make it so fertile and flat. It could even now be considered a sort of delta of major rivers around it. The falling glaciers from the mountains to the north could clog the river path turning into vast lakes until the weather changes and glaciers melt. I have never come across, though, Mardan area is flat due to river blockages but we do not know in detail the geographic history of poor third world countries.
Talking about flying, the flight from Islamabad to Gilgit in fokker plane takes two hours and by road it takes 30-36 hours to get to Gilgit. The scene from the fokker plane at many places is breathtaking when, due to the limitations of its altitude, plane actually flies in the valley and peaks higher than the plane altitude could be seen upclose on both sides of the plane. Even taking a flight from Islamabad to Frankfurt, Shannon or Zurich also takes off straight to the north from Islamabad, passing over northern areas, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Russia, Lithuania, Poland on to destination. The scene underneath Boing 747 in northern areas look much close that flying over Russia, One of the reason may be that Plane had not reached the maximum altitude when it passes snow-peaked mountains in Pakistan and Tajikistan. But the beauty of seeing those peaks at less than 10,000 feet below early in the morning is a zenlike spiritual experience.

ajeet #76 Here is one wild speculation regarding your theory that oil/gas got pushed under the himalayas when the subcontinent rammed asia 50 million years ago: the subcontinental land mass was, it seems, largely (except for the surface crust which was peeled upwards to become the southern face of the himalayas) pushed UNDER the asian land mass, a process which known as subduction (this process is still continuing incidentally, albeit at a pace that is imperceptible to the unaided human eye; and in fact a similar process is underway today also in the Pacific whose sea-floor is being pushed under Japan and the asia land mass).
So: if there is a belt of oil/gas stretching from the mid-east to assam, as you think, it would should have been pushed UP as part of the himalayas and what is now Tibet, not deep under. Perhaps the inhospitable terrain and associated costs have kept oil companies out of serious oil exploration on the himalayas. I remember reading sometime ago about how Siberia is floating on oil, except it is not economical to try and find it.

dost-mittar #64: Well, well well. So we maybe related.....

My ancestors migrated from Rajasthan to Kashmir (God knows when). But they were Rajput Hindus (this I know for a fact, since all the names, including mine, customs are still alive and kicking), at one time. My guess is they converted to Islam, before they migrated, and one of them probably got a good job with someone in Kashmir. Or they got kicked out of Rajasthan. Who knows...

In any case, they have been in Kashmir, since then (my grandparents, aunts, uncles, mother etc. were all born in Srinigar). A few years after the partition, they migrated from Srinigar to Muzzafarabad. And most are still there, or close to the Kashmir/Punjab border (not counting people like myself who are now in another major Kashmiri village called San Jose). Pakistani Kashmiris migrated in large numbers to UK, also. I believe the two biggest cities with Pakistani Kashmiris, in the world, are actually in England (Muzzafarabad is third). So, I have a lot of relatives in UK, as well.

However, the biggest Pakistani Kashmiri migration has probably been to Pakistan Punjab. So many of the uppwardly mobile Kashmiris are now in Punjab, and have married into Punjabis, that they are now almost one ethnicity (Nawaz Sharif is Kashmiri). Infact, my whole family, including me, speak Punjabi as a first language. And I have lived my whole in Punjab, and not in Kashmir. I don`t know whether my ancestors actually ever even spoke Kashmiri (spoken mostly on the Idian side of Kashmir). I suppose they spoke Rajastani way way back.

So, every relatively well off Pakistani Kashmiri you will find will be from one city in Kashmir, and simultaneously be from one in Punjab (or in UK). This is usually due to marraiges into a Punjabi family. In my case, one of my grandfathers is Punjabi, and he was from Jehlum. One side of his family is completely from Jehlum, while his mothers side is also all Kashmiri. I am actually far more familiar with Jehlum and the surrounding area, than I am with the areas in Kashmir.

Which side were your ancestors on, during the famous conflicts in the Sher Shah/Gakhar era? And if you get a chance to visit the area, make sure you go to Rohtas fort and Tilla.

tahmed,

The theory of gondwanaland, the huge continent that you mention is now accepted almost every body. I agree the Indian sub continent hitting the asian mainland at an angle and place affected the subsequent history of this part of the world.

For one thing, if the himalayas were not so inaccesible, the population mix would have been more oriental. Also, the southern areas of china, would not have been purely oriental race. Along with the spread of Budhism, there would have been mixing of blood too.

Another point that I have some time wondered about is that there is a belt of crude oil starting from northern africa to assam in India. However, there is no crude oil in the Indian subcontinent except for some natural gas in Pakistan and Bangladesh and some oil in Assam. My theory is that it got pushed down under the himalays towards central Asia when India rammed into Asia. How that for wild speculation?

re: dost-mittar

``In case you didn`t know, Indians are allowed to visit Pakistan for specific purpose only (e.g., family visits, pilgrimage, delegation) and tourism is not regarded as a valid purpose. If and when tourist visits are allowed, you will see an upsurge in visits from Indians of all religions.``

I highly doubt that will happen. Perhaps some people of your generation who have roots in the land that is now Pakistan would be eager to visit, but for most Indians Pakistan will be at the bottom of the list of countries to visit. I have many friends my age living in India and none of them has ever expressed a desire to visit Pakistan. There is a long way to go before that changes.

ajeet #71 and SameerJB: I think the east-west north-south nature of the mountains in the northern areas (whose consequences for human migrations over the past 4000 years are interestingly described by sameerJB) is the natural outcome of the way the subcontinent was formed: that is 150 million years ago the subcontinent was a part of a bigger continent called gondwanaland which included the antartica, australia, africa, south america as well as india. That land mass broke up due to continental drift, and bout 50 million years ago what was destined to become the arm-pit of the world (the indian subcontinent) rammed (at a speed of about 30 centimeters an year) into what is now Tibet. This gave rise (literally and figuratively) to the east-west himalayan ranges as well as the north-south ranges in northern pakistan and afghanistan.
This geographical event thus provided the bedrock for subsequent Indian history: with human migrations (peaceful and violent) over the past 4000 years taking place taking place from the northwest (due to the north-south passages) rather than from the north (where the east-west nature of the mountains blocked movement. If the subcontinent had hit the asian mainland at some other angle, the history of the subcontinent would have been very different, I think.

Sameerjb 67.

The area I am talking about is the entire area with mardan in the middle and includes Peshawar and Noushera. It is a circle and ringed by mountains and hills. The only area that is open is on the south side bordered by the Indus river. Another river which I think is the kabul river meets indus at the bottom of this circle. It is just speculation on my part, that may be millions of years back it was entirely enclosed and the southern edge of it was eventally eroded by the rivers.

Temporal,

You must have been foutunate to have stayed up of hours. Most of our flights were in the range of five to ten minutes. We were lucky if we coud stay up for half an hour. I don`t know what kind of tow did you guys use. We were using a ground winch, and the most it could pull us up was 1000 feet. Since we were in an urban environment, we could not take any chances, and if we didn`t hit a good thermal in one circle around the airport, we had to land. There were some guys who attempted cross country flying, but it was a very elaborate and time consuming deal. Most of us week end flyer had to be content with 5-10 minute flights.

Sameerjb #62 was what I call a first rate post. Sameer combines his comprehensive knowledge of geology with history to draw some very penetrating insights. Although I have not confirmed everything written in that post, I must comment that it was written in a very readable and interesting manner.

#66 by ajeet

...welcome!

while any flying one does is an exhilarating and unique experience the one i prefer is at slower air speeds…and i suspect romair was referring to those in his earlier post not flying at higher speeds…

…my first solos were in a glider and i share your enthusiasm of gliding…it is not unusual to stay up there for 3-4 hours if you find good thermals…and the peace and quite cannot be matched…the view is great and one can reflect in splendid isolation while life moves at its snail pace on the grounds below…

…haven’t checked out gliding costs here (T.O) recently…but earlier on they had co-ops…and if you are seriously participating as a family unit the costs were not that much…

rgds,

t

While not having had the chance to fly in a one or two seater plane in Pakistan, let alone glide, I did get to go on the motorway from Pindi to Lahore when I was there last month. The motorway passes through sparsely populated areas (with Mandi Bahauddin being a major populated areas along the way, with clearly a future to the town now that it is connected). The motorway has a wire fence running almost the entire length from Pindi to Lahore, which seems effective in keeping animals (other than turtles who are presumably unaware of this major achievement, it appears, and try to carry on business as usual - given the low volume of traffic, it appears they actually make it across between cars!) and local traffic from encroaching on this modern marvel. It has it own special police patrols who I was assured are paid so well that they refuse to take bribes (what!!). There is approximately one police patrol car to be seen every ten miles or so, which is about the same as the number of cars or any other vehicles to be seen on the three lanes going to Lahore PLUS the three lanes going the other way. There are phone booths along the way, and the phones have not yet been stolen, and when you use them you actually get someone on the other side, and if you have a flat or something and they send a vehicle over to fix it or tow it at no cost. You see some great sights along the way, including parts of what become the Khewra salt mines further away.
I am sure Nawaz Sharif had a vision when he built this road, and I am sure the military government has a vision since it is extending the road to Peshawar. The only vision I see is that of a white elephant. But then they said that about Islamabad in the 1960`s and it turned out to be an OK city (imho), so I shall hold my peace for now on these motorway projects.

stuka #59: The nostalgia exists actually more for Sikhs, but they were mainly concentrated in central Punjab. Moreover, chowk does not have many Sikhs interacting. I remember, Pardesi, showed great interest in Gujrat and Mandi Bahauddin areas. Actually among the tourists to Pakistan, diaspora Sikhs way outnumber Hindus and not all comes for Gurdawaras. Many Jats on both side of the border have still very strong friendships which previous generation passed on to the current one.
ajeet: I am sorry to miss the information about your family background. I will go back and read your posts again to have any idea. Right now I do know if there was/ were any river turned into lack that south as Mardan but it is possible if the elevation south of Mardan at some place is higher than Mardan. I will look the maps again to have some information or clues. That is land of Panini, right.

Romair, Godat,

Indeed flying is a great experience, but better still is gliding. Way back when I was young, I was a member of Delhi Gliding Club based at Safdarjang Airport. I did it for about a year and half and then I got married, and that put an end to it.

You see a different landscape from up there, than what you can see at ground level. In a glider there is no engine so the only sound you hear is the air rushing by you. There are no vibrations either. You see the tiny toy cars crawling along the roads, stopping and going while you are up there free as a bird.

I tried to find out something like that here in USA, but his fairly expensive.

SameerJb

It was an interesting lesson on the geography of northern Pakistan that you gave. Made me go and find a physical map of that area. However there was nothing I could find that had the details I was looking for. However one thing I noticed was the area around mardan is an enclosed valley, like the kashmir valley. Some time, way back these must have been huge lakes, until the rivers found an outlet and were drained.

From Romair`s post I understand that, the area where my family came from was somewhat higher elevation, and also was comparativily dry. That would agree with the story I heard from my grandfather, about a pond dug out by one of my ancesters to relieve the shortage of water.

Romair, #61
I envy you. I think flying is so great. That feeling of soaring and independence must be quite exhilarating. The awesome landscape seen from above must give you a special feeling of bonding with the land.

dost-mittar:
Re: Northern Areas
If you look at the geographical maps of subcontinent, you can`t miss noticing the north-south lay out of mountains in northern Pakistan. They run north-south because rivers managed to win over rising Asian land mass due to Indian plate buckling under Asian plate in plate tectonics history.
Basically potowar (northern Punjab and Hazara) is like a palm with 4 fingers sticking out as four gorgious north-south valleys, each separated by north-south mountains from each other, producing some distince cultures different from each other. There are places where mountains run east-west but rivers managed to move around them.
Coming from the west, Afghanistan side, first valley is Chitral with famous Kafiristan and non-Muslim Kalash tribe. They speak Chitrali and thr river running to the south through this valley is Chitral river. Just move straight north from Peshawar to Chitral valley. Next comes Swat valley with river Swat running through and speaking Pushtu with Swati accent. To go to Swat, one has to come to Nowshehra and go north. Next comes Kohistan or Kaghan valley with river Kunar and speaking a Punjabi dialect called Hindko. Th go to Kaghan, one has to come further east to Balakot and head north. The last one is Gilgit/ Hunza, technically in Kashmir and accessible through Abbotabad. They speak technically Balti languages but due to large military garison and migrants, Punjabi is more commonly heard in Gilgit bazars but not at all in Hunza and further north.
What does it mean to have mountains running north-south? It means that each valley will have a good size river passing through ravines and gorges and supporting peoples` livings. Historically it means that one could walk along these rivers without ever climbing a mountain to go to great distances northward and southward. Notice the influence of Punjabi or Hindko in Kaghan valley all the way to Chinese border. if people could move with this ease, the history of religions and cultures have better chances of influencing the remote areas in these valleys. The Ganesh name up in the north attest to that.
Historically, plenty of migrations of Scythians and Huns, to the south took place through these valleys with people even from Taklamakan entering into sub-continent with ease. Alexander came to India through Chitral and Swat valleys, after conquering central Asia, although bulk of his Army came through Khyber pass later. He moved through these valleys to Taxila and later to Jhelum. All the Muslim Afghan and Turkic invaders entered through Khyber pass but moved southeast due to facing north south mountains, otherwise they would have directly entered into Kashmir, moving east. That route is not possible just like moving into and out of Tibet from UP or Bihar.
Once, we move further east from Gilgit valley, the moubtains turn east-west because here mountains won over rivers. The east-west mountain run continues into Nepal and further, all the way to northeastern Indian territories. Now one can only move north or south through few passes. The east-west valley have smaller streams but not big rivers.
East of Gilgit, even in Kargil, Pakistani forces have to climb the east-west mountains to get into Indian Kashmir territory,
The religion or culture transfer over the Himalayas was not that easy. The UP and Tibet remained very separated in this regard and even Buddhism entered Tibet by going around through Pakistan, Afghanistan, north and then entering Tibet from western side, Whereas in the valleys of north-south mountains, Hinduism, Buddhism, Ganesh, Shiivites, Muslims, Ismailis everybody was able to penetrate. One can find Buddhist carvings all over in these valleys upto the northern frontiers.
No I was not making some wild guesses in my last post. I was just using common basic knowledge of geography and history to guess the probable reasons. Geography has always effected history and history has effected religions and cultures. That simple.

Godot #60: You`re most welcome.

Imran Khan has written a book titled the Indus Journey, which takes the reader up the Indus with excellent pictures.

The best way to see all this stuff is as a pilot of small airplanes. One really gets to see the real Pakistan, i.e. three large cities (Lahore Pindi/Islamabad, Karachi), quite a few mid-sized cities, and thousands of rural villages (which to me is the real Pakistan, where two/thirds of the population lives).

I think everyone should get a chance to just fly a few hundred feet above the Indus, from one end to the other. I have done it over a few patches of the river. It is truly a mighty river, with banks filled with history. Apparently, it even has dolphins. The large Tarbela lake is beautiful. There are a couple of lovely lakes (Uchhali, and another one) that are around the Quaidabad area, before Mianwali.

So many other places. I cannot recall all of them, at the moment. The northern areas are of world-standard, but there are quite a few beautiful places in the plains of Punjab, NWFP and Sind also (haven`t had a chance to fly over Baluchistan).

Romair, #56
Thank you so much! That is just fascinating! You paint a beautiful picture.

There is some great interaction on this board. Seriously, it`s nice to read about West Punjab in such detail.

Funnily enough, most Sikhs I have met in India (at least of my generation) either identify with East Punjab or Delhi. The nostalgia of west Punjab seems to be more amongst Punjabi Hindus of Delhi. Just a very unscientific opinion of mine, may not reflect reality.

Sac # 50

Thanks for you information on SoaN. Another titbit from old memories. my uncle once joked that you could alway tell a soaiNi, by the reddish stain of the kachha/lungi, because of the water of soan carried a lot of silt of that color.

ajeet #36/dost-mittar: Six districts in Pakistan (four in the Potohar part of Punjab and two adjacent to them in NWFP) produce about 75% of the Pakistani soldiers (all other Pakistani areas mostly produce officers, but very few produce sepoys in large numbers). Chakwal, Attock, Pindi, Jehlum, Kohat, Mardan (don`t know if I have the cities related to the correct districts). So contrary to popular belief, Pakistan military is not really a Punjabi military. It is actually a Potohari (northern Punjab/southeastern NWFP) military. Considering the large size of the Pakistan mlitary, and the small size of these areas, I doubt there is any other area in the world which sends so many people into a military.

You will not find a single household in the Jehlum/Chakwal area which does not have at least two family members in the military. These areas are barren, rural with no industry. Hence military service or migration to England were/are the only two options left. Luckily, they are not feudal-dominated like Southern Punjab (Multan district, Rajanpur, D I Khan etc.), hence they do not have any powerful families. Due to this, Pindi and Jehlum have the highest literacy rates in Punjab respectively (Lahore is third).

Some famous Indian personalities from Jehlum include the Gujral family of IK Gujral, who used to live in Jehlum city`s Shumali Mohalla (Northern neighborhood). Right outside Jehlum, towards the famous Tilla hills of jogi fame, is the village of actor Sunil Dutt (why is that nearly all Indian actors come from areas in Pakistan or have a Pathan/Khan background, within India. Would it have something to do with looks?). I believe it is called Sangohi.

Jehlum and Wah are two of the better maintained, relatively unknown, peaceful small cities of Punjab (one rarely hears of any crimes from there). Primarily because there are nice Army cantonments there, and a river and stream respectively. Chakwal is relatively boring.

Cambellpur is now known as Attock. The city is small, but the surrounding area is simply beautiful - specially close to the Attock bridge(s). There is the famous strategically situated Akbar`s Attock fort, built by Khwaja Shamsuddin, on a hill overlooking two rivers. It is now the home of one of the Pakistani commando units (this is where famous politicians are jailed after coups). Attock bridge is an important military target for India in wars. Since its destruction would disconnect Punjab from NWFP on the main GT road. It is also where the Kabul river with green water and Indus river with grey water (or vice-versa?) meet in the form of rapids. It would be a great place to do white water rafting, if it existed in Pakistan.

If you are really adventurous, you could follow the combined Indus/Kabul (known as Indus from this point onwards) southwards from Attock. It is flat but beautiful scenery. It takes a 90 degree turn (only river I have seen do that), around a village called Makhad. Then it goes soutwards, until it hits Kalabagh, and then all of a sudden open up extremely wide and shallow (Imran Khan`s Indus Journey book has good pictures). We used to fly over these districts on a daily basis.

If you go to any of these areas, a good idea would be to contact someone in the Army in Pakistan to guide you. Since no major private enterprise invests in these cities, due to their small size, hence Army units usually have the best (and sometimes only) good setups to stay.

Dost-mittar - what is your connection with Jehlum?

#30 PM

I would love to go to every northern, eastern, western, southern, northeastern etc.. etc.. area of every country in the world. Maybe one day, Insha`Allah. And yes, when that day comes, we can go visit the breathtaking northern regions of Pakistan together, no problem.

In the meantime, I am sure u will enjoy your trip. Don`t 4get to share its memories with all of us on Chowk. :)

re ajeet #36:

Campbellpur is now called Attock I belive. Also swaN is actually Soan the river as well as the valley.

re tAhmed32/Sameer:

Sialkot and Faisalabad are home to some of Pakistan`s richest denizens. Sialkot is probably the most cutting-edge(no pun intended) town as far as manufacturing is concenrned. Its one part of Pakistan where the entrepreneur is truly alive and kicking. Residential land in some areas of Faisalabad is more expensive than the army occupied land aka Defence colonies in various parts of the country.

It never ceases to amaze me though that with such a bounty of wealth these cities have almost no decent civic facilities to boast of. One can find raw sewerage on the streets of Faisalabad and people are walking through it as if it were the Champes Elysee......

re Urstruly #45:

Gujranwala has to be associated with Chiraas(sparrows)...........BTW how is Busharraf doing?

later
-sac

Urstruly #45 Good, good. Actually, tileer (the feathered kind, not the tinpot general kind) are found (or at least used to be last I was there) in abundance in Kohat. The locals used shotgun (with hundreds of small pellets in each shot) to kill them by the dozen, and then made a curry dish out of them.
Dont recommend a visit to Kohat to jay, though: he could easily be mistaken for a tileer (the feathered kind) and thus end his illustrious chowk career as part of a curry meal.

semeerJB #44 So you are on the east coast as well, just like every other chowkie who is from the US! I know there are desis on the west coast, but looks like for some reason they are not represented on chowk.

oh by the way, i forgot some of the cities:

Jehlum: patli patli tangoN walay Jehlumi (It was probably Asma Jehnagir, commenting on a newspaper photo showing the soldiers of Pak Army climbing the walls of prime minister house during 1999 coupe)

Quetta : Naswar, Akhrot, watwani

Peshawar: Naswar, Akhrot, watwani

Now kids, this Naswar is a very bad thing. The other day I saw a Quettite using a an akhrot where he should have used watwani under the influence of Naswar and later that day I saw him trying to crack open a watwani with his molar teeth. If anyone is wondering, that is how hamidm lost his couple of molars. Dont ask me what is watwani.

Sameer:

``How come you are interested in hotel management business?``

Arrey low marks in school exams left me with few options. Actually I was very interested in joining the fauj. I gave the National Defence Academy written exams but never cleared it because of the math. I could manage the General Awareness and English portion but the math was a killer. The level of maths in hotel management was a little bit easier so I cleared that. The rest is history.


Any connection with another family from Chakwal, the Oberoi clan?``

MS Oberoi is also from Bhaun. In fact my grandmother remembers that his mother would always have the naada hanging from her salwar. I met Bikki Oberoi (his son) once in Delhi at the Oberoi. Short guy with a short fuse, but very classy.

Sameer:

``How come you are interested in hotel management business?``

Arrey low marks in school exams left me with few options. Actually I was very interested in joining the fauj. I gave the National Defence Academy written exams but never cleared it because of the math. I could manage the General Awareness and English portion but the math was a killer. The level of maths in hotel management was a little bit easier so I cleared that. The rest is history.


Any connection with another family from Chakwal, the Oberoi clan?``

MS Oberoi is also from Bhaun. In fact my grandmother remembers that his mother would always have the naada hanging from her salwar. I met Bikki Oberoi (his son) once in Delhi at the Oberoi. Short guy with a short fuse, but very classy.

``(for Non-Pakistanis, Murrabas are the land freebies given to army officers) from the Angrez bahadur.``


There is a spirited defence by Col Riaz Jafri about this practice on Paknews.com How come Indian Faujis didn`t get land from our government? I would not have had to wash dishes, deliver pizza, work in library etc to finance my college studies here. :(

Continuing on last post:

I really envy the Fauj progeny across the border. For them there is an appropriate Punjabi song:

``Daddy da paisa putra aish kar lai
Tera zamaana putra mauj kar lai
Gaddi challa ley pitra, disco ch ja lai putra
Aishan uddaa lai, putra mauj kar lai``

The progeny of Indian faujis will stand enviously at the border and sing
`` tera to hua, ab mera kya hoga``??

Temporal:

Yeah, but a gora passport is far away for me...arrey no Pakistani here has jugaad for me to get a Paki visa?

While we are on the topic, the following cities are also famous for:

- Sialkot`s roosters (Is it true? Any Sialkoti on the forum? PM?)

- Crows of Kohat.

- Donkeys of Petaro Sindh (especially those around cadet college)

- The footware of Gujrat, Punjab (if you know what I mean)

- The breakable and unreliable pitchers of Wazirabad, Punjab

- The slack-jawed yokels of taxila and Attock

- Chargha (whole fried chickens) of Gujranwala, the human variety.

- Tileer (a bird) of Karachi.

- Dhaggas (Oxen) of Faisalabad.

- Pot bellies aka Pehlwan aka Machar Pehlwan aka aaaa bakri of Lahore.

- Assorted Farm Animals - Nawabshah Sindh

- Shikarpur Sindh - the idoitsville/khalistan of Paksitan (it is almost a proverb)

- Mirpur Khas Sindh - ahem, heaven on earth for PM or Ali1

- Roosters of Mianwali/Kalabagh, but for a different reason than that of Sialkots. They are as big as a goat.

(this post is for only those who know Paksitan)

tahmed # 42: .....chuckle!.........since when did you join hands with anNy, pushing me to California or Pacific coast?..........activist on atlantic coast, not pacifist on pacific coast......I meant mixing Urdu Punjabi with English when said, ``almost English``.........grammer and me?.....:-))

#29 by sameerJB

[…I would like to visit Jaipur, Jaiselmeer and rest of Rajisthan….]

...and what is stopping you?

all you need is ‘lonely planet’ (or borrow mine with useful annotations), a US passport, some reasonable facsimile of george Washington a pair of jeans or shorts…

…quit or go on sabbatical…purchase a 60 or 90 day Ind-rail first class pass and travel all over…and you can even walk over for a day or two from attari to wagah and visit friends in isloo….

stuka:

you could the same in reverse order...


#33 by Subroto and #35 by nooralain

:)


rgds,

t

VISITING PAKISTAN,

A visit to pakistan is a must for any one planning to experience and write about the intorrogation styles in various countries at the immigration check points. A non-pakistani visiting pakistan will do so at their own leisure, convinced that to be intorrogated is the greates thrill in life.

That reminds me of romair in paki t-shirt with all the finger printing and photographing.

samerJB writes ``Sialkot has some very affluent, almost English speaking neighborhoods``
Almost?? I have never been to Sialkot and must visit it now to hear the locals speak ``almost English``, namely:
First Local: Oy yaar, how yer doin?
Second Local: Good. Good. My surgical instruments dee bahut bikri ho-ing.
First Local: Then you must go visiting brother grammer-man sameerJB in california.
Third Local: My football selling very well, also oye. But brother grammer-man say I need english practice more, then he let me come to california.
First Local: You practicing making football all time, yaar. Not practicing english, you backward man. Brother sameerJB (and Hamidm also) in amreeka not like backward man from Pakistan. Neighbor think all man from Pakistan speaking almost-English, not grammer English like brother grammer-man sameerJB and brother advanced man Hamidm.
.... and so forth.
PS: I guess Musharaff is really from Sialkot too, since he speaks almost-english almost-urdu as well.

stuka: How come you are interested in hotel management business? Any connection with another family from Chakwal, the Oberoi clan?
Whenever people talk of Punjab, the most important things get mentioned are five rivers and agriculture. But Chakwal comprises of higher elevation, Indus plateau. It was not possible to move water to higher elevation through canal systems and that is unless water was brought from upstream Indus from NWFP or Mianwali through canal system, so commom otherwise in lower elevation Punjabi plains. It was less attractive for the lack of fertile land and water shortage. That is why, most Muslims and Sikhs youths used to join military and Hindus into business and higher learning. The area is sparcely populated for these reasons and has less clout nationally in power politics of numbers.
There is a plan to bring water to this area from Sindh once the much talked about Kalabagh Dam ever becomes reality.
Sialkot is one city outside Lahore/ Karachi and Islamabad that has sizeable big city type urban class. They probably bring in more foreign exchange to Pakistan than any other Punjabi city through exporting sporting goods and surgical instruments. Sialkot has some very affluent, almost English speaking neighborhoods involved in export business. Besides Sialkot, Gujranwala, Wazirabad and even Gujrat are within 25-35 miles of each other.
But there is no place like Islamabad.
noor: Murree is so close to Quaid-e-Azam University that we used to go there sometime just to have lunch. Great place to get away from summer heat. Once in Islamabad, everybody goes to Murree and nobody goes same distance to the west, Taxila and Wah Gardens. I mean even Rose Garden and surrounding area in Islamabad is better than Wah Garden. And of course in Islamabad, hamidm`s and my favorite, Bari Imam - great place for shrrap juice.

Talking about places in Pakistan, my family came from a village called Hadhwal, or odhwal. I remember my grandfather telling me that it was some 20 koh from Rawalpindi in camblepur(campbellpur??) district. I grew up hearing names like chakri, where my aunts family came from, other relatives belonged to, yes Chakwal and jehlam, a place called swaN, which I think was also a river. Panja Sahib, also peshawar (cantonment), Raja Bazar in Rawalpindi, where my father and my uncle had a book store.

These are all secondhand memories, but I would love to renew them first hand, if and when peace returns to this unforunate land.

=== Interact Filtered ===
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stuka #27: Your knowledge of Pakistan is indeed quite impressive. You seem to know significantly more than most Indians about Pakistan. My guess is you probably live close to the border.

There is a reason there is no website about Chakwal. There is nothing there. I have passed through the place quite a few times. Ayaz Amir can make anything sound interesting. He is predicted to be the next MNA from Chakwal, as his main opponent was disqualified due to the Bachelors degree condition. I exchange emails with him and Brian Clougley. They are usually quite prompt - especially Brian. You should send another email to him. The way Ayaz is going, he maybe the PM of Pakistan, someday. He was in the military, the civil services, is a big time journalist, and is from a strong political family, and actually takes the trouble of living full-time in the God forsaken place he fights elections from.

There are really only three cities in Pakistan: Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad/Pindi. All other cities are mini-cities with large populations. Faisalabad is actually a gigantic village, even though it is the third or fourth biggest city in Pakistan. It is the textile capital of Pakistan, and perhaps of Asia. So it has a lot of very very rich families. I am not quite sure what these rich guys do for entertainment there. Faisalabadis are famous (like Pathans) for looking in the wrong direction, to check traffic, while crossing the road.

I must say your ancestors chose some pretty boring places to be from in Pakistan :-)

tahmad #28: The undergroung tourism guide only covered Punjab, and did not hit NWFP or other areas. I recommended GHQ because it is, after all, the center of power in Pakistan. Upper Topa is nice still, due to the Army presence there. Kohat, I have only been to once. Jehlum, I know inside out.

Shangri-La hotels in Skardu is quite nice for the peaceful minded - at least when I visited. If you really want peace and quite, here is my favorite spot: Get on the road that goes from Sargodha to Mianwali. Somewhere in the middle, close to the village of Khushwant Singh, is a small unnoticeable right turn, that disappears into a large hill (small mountain). Follow that road to the top of the hill. It takes about 30 minutes due to the steep slope. There is a place called Sakesar, on top of the hill. It is surrounded on two sides by large lakes, and has thick apple orchards, surrounded by fog. No one there, except a few people manning a PAF radar.

Another good place: Go to Korangi Karachi. Rent a motor boat. Go about two miles south into the Arabian Sea. You will hit a small island, literally untouched by humans (only an odd fishermen, now and then). White sandy beaches, crystal clear waters, and on a good day you can see dolphins.

But one can only take so much peace and quite.

subroto....
that cow-dung produced a good chuckle from this bhains right here!!!!

I have nothing but good memories of Murree...although I did get in trouble for going to the Lower Mall with one of our male travel companions without Ammi`s permission...the aroma of freshly baked bread emanating from Sunshine bakery, the man selling roasted challiyan sprinkled with red pepper and massaged with limoos. Walking up the s-shaped road from the Mall upto St. Denys, even to, is it called Kashmir Point? Watching and actually envying the khana badosh. In my early teens, my cousin and I used to fantasize about having a summer house in Murree to escape the awful heat in Lahore...definitely was one of my favorite places to be, after my mother`s village in Multan district...*sigh*...nostalgiiia, who needs it?

Temporal & soundmeister looks like you Gais are in the mood. Not that I have any beef with you but lets not milk this for all its worth otherwise it will be a load of bull. Of course I know you will not be cowed down and will be replying before I can say ``cheese``. Well then bully for you.
Your friendly calfir,
Subroto

sameerJB
[ The name of any place does not not necessarily implies the]

Professor saheb stop lecturing and learn some grammer...

Romair: You hit the naon the head.

``Chakwal = Why?: No offence to Chakwalis, but I hope your only motivation to visit it is because you have some family associations with it. There is nothing interesting there, other than Ayaz Amir.``

My father`s family is from Bhaun. I have grown up listening to stories of Bhaun and Chakwal but have no first hand impressions of the place. Ayaz Amir had once written an article on Chakwal, and he had also mentioned Bhaun, which he described as a picturesque town. I wrote to him asking for any weblinks on Bhaun/Chakwal, but he never replied. I did a Google search on Chakwal, but nothing came up except for an alumni directory of some Islamic school.


``D. I. Khan = Why ? Same as above. Nothing interesting in surrounding area, other than Maulana Fazl-ur-Rahman, Leghari etc. If you know those people, they could probably arrange a good hunting holiday or something for you.``

Some rishteydari from DI Khan, not very close but have heard stories from there as well.


Sialkot = Why? Same as above. Unless you want to get good sports goods and surgical instruments.

My maternal great grandfather was a lawyer in Sialkot. My nani and her extended family is all from Sialkot. My Nanji was from Lahore, and attended Government College Lahore.

Actually, though I didn`t mention Faisalabad, I have a very good friend from there. Faisal Sehgal and Khurram Vohra were my classmates in New Hampshire. Though there were a bunch of Vohras, all were Chinioti to a man. (How`s that for knowledge on Pakistan...u always complain that Indians don`t know much about Pak)

The only place I have heard is quite lame is Islamabad, though again Rawalpindi, the old city is interesting.

Romair #26 I have nothing against the spots you mention (other than GHQ, Rawalpindi!! unless you meant the military museum there). And if nasah recommends picture books to someone who has just finished describing her visit to the real thing, that is his business. To each his own. Personally, I prefer Ladyana`s choice - enjoying tranquility where one finds it. So: here are my choices:
1. The crystal clear streams of Kohat cantonment (which I have not seen for decades, but will always remain with me as a memory).
2. The sound of the wind going through the pines in Upper Topa.
3. The silent flow of the canal near military college Jhelum.
PS: I visited that Buddha tree you recommend - It is indeed an ancient tree, but a lot of it is dead. I doubt if it will last another 10 years.

dost-mittar:
[Re. Ganesh, I am aware that some hindu names have survived in Pakistan (haripur, krishan nagar, guru chowk, etc.) but Ganesh -associated more with Maharashtra and South- is an unusual name for a place even in North India, let alone in hunza. Sorry to hurt your feelings.]
Why surprise? The name of any place does not not necessarily implies the choice of majority or representative of their culture/ religion. More often it represent the choice of an influential personality, a pir, saint, leader, guru etc. Imagine if an influential person had named Faisalabad, some 1000 years ago and we would be scratching our head if Mr. Faisal was one of MB Qasim lieutenant, a missionary or an Arab ruler of the area.
While land does not move, the people do and considering the migrations within subcontinent, it is likely that an influential person from Gilgit area coming in contact with Ganesh followers, impressed by it and took this knowledge back to Gilgit, or a wandering saint from Maharashtra ending up in Gilgit and succeeded in creating a band of followers there. Perhaps a wandering Ganeshite went in search of origin of Indus river, similar to the importance of Ganges origin among northern Indian followers of Hinduism.
But most likely scenario could be the random pattern of migrations of people. Notice, Gujjars in Kashmir, Hazara, swat, Meerwali (MukhtaraN Mai belongs to Gujjar tribe), Indian State of Gujrat and settlements all over Punjab. They are generally believed to be Scythian in origin and for a while ruled northern India as Kushan dynasty. The Gujjar connection of northernmost territorites such as Gilgit/ Chilas and Indian State of Gujrat next to Maharashtra might have some clues to names like Ganesh in a high mountaneous area with no chance of elephants. I hope people do not confuse Gujjar as tribe with all of modern-day Gujrati speakers who may or may not be Gujjars, just as Pakistani city of Gujrat is not a Gujjar majority city and Faisalabad has perhaps very few people of Arab origin besides Al-Qaeda absconders?
Stuka: Don`t listen to Romair, he finds nothing interesting to visit Faisalabad. I wonder what will be five places in India, I would like to visit. 1. Tabbu`s residence at night and a chance to discuss religon with her; 2. Juhi Chawla`s residence............
No seriously, I would like to visit Jaipur, Jaiselmeer and rest of Rajisthan.

re. LadyAna #25
Lady,
That was really sweet of you. If you (and yours) plan on making a trip to the Northern Areas this autumn and are looking for a travel companion, well, just so you know, I could do with some good company. :-)
PM
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Dear Shaishta,
Thanks for sharing. You did create some good, evocative, pictures there.

Shaista - Fursssst of all, velcom to chowk. Second of all, you write well. Third of all, I liked your travelogue. Fourth of all, never do any research b4 writing anything that has to do with your own emotions and feelings.
The commentators on this site have researched things to the core of the earth and beyond. There is nothing original left to investigate. So don`t bother.

Your article brings a breathe of fresh air to this (ahem) pseudo-intellectual and stuffy place chocking with the languorous air of recycled learning.

I liked reading your undiluted feelings and perceptions. The atmosphere u describe is one of tranquility, and reading yr account, the quiet peace comes across. The small ways in which u felt frustrated - dirty drinking water, not being allowed to dry yr hair outside, another muslim judging your iman - and the small joys - watching a folk dance, gazing at the mountains - all these do not require hurried research, but a calm introspection. They are more human and less textbook feelings - simpler, more natural and easily communicated.

As a leisure tourist, I don`t read up the history geography and sociology of a place, and would not expect anyone else to either. Those sort of things are better left to the college professors who undertake expeditions just for that purpose. When u arrive at the holiday spot, u learn naturally and quickly whatever u need to know in order to take away from the journey something meaningful - memories that can stay with u for a long time.

I look forward to reading more such accounts in the future :).

Ana

Stuka #20: Your list of places you want to visit in Pakistan is quite interesting. A few points:

Chakwal = Why?: No offence to Chakwalis, but I hope your only motivation to visit it is because you have some family associations with it. There is nothing interesting there, other than Ayaz Amir.

D. I. Khan = Why ? Same as above. Nothing interesting in surrounding area, other than Maulana Fazl-ur-Rahman, Leghari etc. If you know those people, they could probably arrange a good hunting holiday or something for you.

Sialkot = Why? Same as above. Unless you want to get good sports goods and surgical instruments.

The other choices are quite good. Following is my abridged fledgling underground guide to must see Punabi tourism. You can hit most of them close to GT Road:

Lahore (Heera Mandi, Badshahi Mosque (it is adjacent to Heera Mandi), Phajjay day Payee, Data Darbar, Benazir Qulfa, Anarkali di Chaat, Junoon concert at Alhamra, Food Street, LUMS, Horse and Cattle Show, Cricket match at Qaddafi stadium, Andaroon Lahore, Shaukat Khanum hospital, Jail road with all the girls colleges, Aitchison College)

Shiekhupura (hiran minar)

Faisalabad (nothing - maybe ghenta ghar)

Gujranwala (roadside chirray tikkas)

Jehlum (Tilla Jogian, Jehlum river)

Chakwal (Ayaz Amir)

Rawalpindi (Karim day somosay, Akbar day somasay, Pir Wadahi bus station, Army GHQ, Raja Bazar)

Islamabad (hike up Margalla Hills, Jinnah Market, Constitution Avenue, The Buddha banyan tree)

Murree (Mall Road, PC Bhurbun, Nathiagali, chairlift)

Taxila (Museum with Buddha`s artifacts)

Wah (Jehangir`s Wah Gardens, Wah Ordinance Factory)

Hasan Abdal (Panja Saab, Cadet College Hasan Abdal, Roadside fish shops)

Kamra (PAF Kamra Rebuilt Factories)

Attock border into NWFP (Attock Fort, Meeting point of Kabul and Indus)

Khewra (Khewra Salt Mines)

``kaghan is take-your-breath-away-beautiful... ``

Chalk up one more place in Pakistan I want to visit then...

Right now it is:

1. Lahore

2. Bhaun/Chakwal

3. Sialkot

4. DI Khan

5. Neelam Valley

6. Kaghaan Valley (Better be nice coz I am replacing it with Gilgit)

In anctuality, I would be quite grateful for a visa to go Lahore, Chakwal and Sialkot.

soundmeister #20 you say ``I love my cow very much.`` Hope your cow reciprocates your feelings. But keep an eye open for the bull in case he approaches while you are sharing your love for the cow.

dear Shaista -- if you really want to see your beloved country Pakistan let me recommend a great pictorial book with gorgeous pohotos of Kohistan, Baltistan, and breath taking Swat Valley that excel even the Swiss Alpes --

the name of the book is - Journey Through Pakistan -- by Mohammed Amin - Duncan Willets - and Graham Hancock -- published by Camerapix Publishers International --

Mohammed Amin is a Kenya-born CEO of Camerapix Publishers Internatinal.

The book covers all states of Pakistan -- and its multiethnicity -- in gorgeous color phtopgraphs -- the front of the jacket photograph shows the high peaks in the Krakoram Range where some of the world`s largest glaciers meet -- and the back shows the most splendid mosiac of the Wazir Khan Mosque in Lahore.

You may already have the book --

one wonders why the govt of Pakistan does not use this tourist treasure trove of Pakistan -- Kohistan, Balti, Nooristan, Hunza and Swat an Kohat Valley -- to earn tourist dollars -- it could become the tourist mecca -- if developed and advertized properly.

but read about and research the palces -- before u visit them -- and do vist them -- and do write about them -- on Chowk.