Our Landlord System...Good or Bad?

Hamidm2,
Truer words on Pakistani society were never spoken, except maybe by yourself :).
I also agree with your second para... things are indeed changing, esp. in the cities. I suspect things don`t change unless they cease to `work`.
rgds,
PM

Mr. Junaid,

You state that ``The importance of [the fedual] system in agriculture field has been very important. It has not only allowed to manage the vast agricultural area but ir has also allowed to ger the maximum possible yield. The sub-division of land always cuts the production of crops down.``
I would be interested to know the basis of your claims. The World Bank Pakistan Country Assistance Strategy (CAS) report says that concentration of land ownership and share tenancy have contributed both to low farm yields and massive rural poverty (which, incidentally, is an issue you seem not to have thought significant enough to examine in your piece).

Actually, I`ve only just (subsequent to writing the above, that is) read the whole article and can`t figure out what exactly your point is, or indeed why chowk decided to pu this up!

For anyone interested, some further findings of the World Bank report:
* 2.5% of the big farmers in Pakistan own 1/3 of the total farm area. (Their contribution to income taxes is, as we know, neglible)
* The landless comprise 50% of the population and are afflicted most by rural poverty, which falls steadily as rural ownership increases.
* Almost 75% of Pakistan`s poor are landless and these comprise of 70% of the rural poor.

The CAS report further states that ``INEQUITY IN LAND OWNERSHIP explains why overall agricultural yields in Pakistan remain BELOW that of other countries of SIMILAR LAND ENDOWMENTS. There is evidence from developing countries, including Pakistan, that as farm sizes increase, productivity falls.``

In any event, the question of whether we should be concentrating on land productivity when it conflicts with the value of equity and poverty eradication is one that needs to be asked first and foremost, IMHO. Pakistan has no dearth of concentrated weatlh, and if land productivity is the sole objective, we may well end up with a society in which the rich simply get richer...

rgds,
PM

further reading: Neo-feudalism despite a wiser World Bank, Dr. Mahnaz Fatima, Dawn Economic nad Business Review, Oct. 14-21, 2002.

#29: Yes, the Niazi Pashtuns are settled in Mianwali and do play a role in electing the local politicians, however if you check voting patterns in Mianwali and areas where the MMA or MQM have won, people have voted outside the Biradri/tribal influences. Playing the mechanics of manipulating things in favour of certain tribes and biradris was very much the game of the Government in the recent Pakistani elections, and happily it didn`t work in most areas.

You have to remember another thing as far as Imran Khan is concerned, he is a Niazi Pashtun, who`s family has little standing in Mianwali, and he himself is settled in Lahore. He also polled the highest number of votes in 97 from Swat an area which doesn`t have a niazi in sight!


To another point, while I agree Feudal land structures need to be dismantled, my point was that feudalism is a structure of patronage with no system of self correction or redress, the people who replaced the traditional landlords in UP or Bihar in fact perpetuated the old system, because they enjoyed the ego trip that dispensing patronage gives with it..either that or their leaders did not provide them with an alternative. Perhaps like you say it`s because of less in number higher caste groups in the south?..I suppose something simialir could be said for certain areas of Sindh and PUnjab..although casteism exists but in a slightly different form.

The zamindari system is not necessarily good or bad. There are good landlords and bad ones. Historically the zamindar was benevolent to his people. He managed to keep control over the area and provided quick justice. It is the bureacrats and the police that are the prime oppressors and not the landlords.

Reducing land holding impacts productivity negatively and agriculture no longer remains an attractive business. The small farmer lacks the resources to increase productivity and the overall production suffers.

Zakkk

There is one overwhelming factor in elections be they held EAST or west of Wagah and that is - casteist / tribal equations do play a major part . Is it not true that the Niazi tribe to which Mr. Imran Khan belongs to is setlled in Mianwali, and this probably explains Khan`s need to contest from there . There are numerous other examples.

While dismantling of feudal structures may not always result in radical improvement, the converse is deplorable as well. People who have been lorded over in a feudal setup probably need to mature in a truly democratic setting at which point hopefully the pandering , patronage , nepotism and cronyism will fade away. Dismantling feudal structures is truly not complete until land is taken away from the Feudals and distributed to sharecroppers and tenants - however this does have an economic implication - it leads to fragmentation of holdings and makes it uneconomical to use modern means of farming . The deterioration happens over a few generations unless birth control is established.

Regarding your point about UP , in general caste structures are unravelling in India at different rates - faster in the South where the higher castes do not command numbers , this brings with it opportunists from the middle and lower classes that exploit the new found power aka Yadav chieftains of UP and Bihar not to mention Mayawati.

oye Aamiria

I amdisGUSt with you! Ia mthiank yuouare Deepkla is disguises.

Transylvanian!

temporal:

me thinks the biggest problem is the lack of independence at the institutional levels. all can`t stay away from tampering them, but the faujiz/army leads the rot.

as far as feudalims goes, it`s mostly symbolic. there are plenty of proposals with the agricultural department that state how the redistribution of land can take place. no one is interested though. perhaps showing feudalims isn`t really a problem.

those who yell and bellow against feudalism (sometimes i do too), should simply demand that the proposals already in the agricultural department be implemented BACKED BY CONSTITUTIONAL decrees thus ensuring that NO ONE- especially NO FAUJI FUK can take away the rights of people and independence of institutions.

but of course, those who engage in and applaud the `gang-rape` of the CONSTITUTION are least likely to be sincere in their demands for rights of people.

Hey Omair; could you quote the time, place and what was said by BB about NS, I am in the middle of an argument with a PPP wala..and I`d appreiate the info, if its a bit rude lol e mail it!:)

zakk

...... you are absolutely right when you say, ``Feudalism in my opinion is as much a mentality rather then simple land ownership. It also means the concentration of power in a family which controls the lives of people through a system of patronage`` .......... and this is the true bane of pakistani society ..... everyone - the lowly chaprasi who guards the door to the rent controller`s office, the moharrar at the kutchery, the patwari, the sho , the station commander, ac, dc, school headmaster, student, raja sahib at the pia counter, maulvi sahib - we are all guilty of being little feudals lords in our little spheres of influence .............. and the biggest culprit is the army that struts around as if it owns the country ..........

............. but things are a lot better than they were thirty years ago when the the man in the street, without any sphere of influence, ``knew his place`` ......zab might have been a power hungry scoundrel, but he did create the the consciousness in the common man that he too had some rights as a citizen ............he might have done this unknowingly, but we are all the better for it ......... my dear mother (god bless her soul) hated bhutto for this - she used to say, `` kiya waqt aa gaya hai - har dhobi, nai, chooray, choomar ki zaban khul gaye hai`` .......... let`s hope they continue to speak up .............

Reply AAmir #20

``you lajjo & Zafar Dont impress us !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!``

Talking to yourself is a sign of stress. Please relax - I recommend seeing an Austin Powers movie.

``Stick to sexual inuendo you r good at .``

I hope you were talking to Miss Lajwanti...I am not even sure of your gender let alone all that other intimate stuff (no, please don`t tell me).

Regards

Some observations on Omairs, Hamid2m, Temporal and Sameers comments;
Omair, Imran Khans success in Mianwali notwithstanding his parties performance was poor to say the least, I think the only seat where they crossed the double digit mark was in Lahore and his provincial candidate for Mianwali and maybe Karak. On the plus side I think the parties overall votes polled is greater then last time. But if you want my advice candidaites who poll 300-1.500 votes shoulc be told to stick to contesting for local body polls and theyd be lucky if they win a Union Council Nazim!
To another issue, Feudalism and it`s abolition does not mean radical improvement, the abolishment of feudal structures in India, especially U.P led to the replacement of teh feudal class with dacoits and a very corrupt local elite. To add to that in Pakistan the government has just liberalised laws as far as corporate land holdings are concerned lifting ceiling restrictions.
Another point; Feudalism in my opinion is as much a mentality rather then simple land ownership. It also means the concentration of power in a family which controls the lives of people through a system of patronage. The Sharifs while not being feudal land lords lived very much like corporate feudals, the same goes for families like the Chaudhrys and others. Perhaps the issue is more one of monopolies which dispense patronage and treat workers as sub humans in business or agriculture rather then simple land lord feudalism?
With regard to the NWFP and Landlordism, while because of the tribal nature of much of the area landlordism never took root, but in areas like the peshawar valley, swabi , mardan and Swat Khanism did very much exist, and still does evern though it was0 shattered by ZAB`s socialist rhetoric and reforms. That is why to this day the PPP still retains a constituency in many areas of the Frontier. In fact that change is probably the reason why despite discrimination in funding by the federal govt poverty levels in the frontier are low compared to the rest of the country.

To Pakistani interactors here:
__________________________________________

Re: #17 by Romair :[….Feudalism is, by a gigantic margin, the biggest problem in Pakistan….]

How many of you Chowk Pakistanis agree with this blanket, categorical and not uncertain statement? (Indians please hold off for a moment)…

and I will volunteer my humble opinion.

These are the BIGGEST problems:

---Usurpation of power by the Army
---Law and Order
---Economy
---Education
---Health and Welfare
---Undue focus on army interest projects(read K A S H M I R --- read S I A C H E N read M A N I P U L A T E D P O L I T I C S)

Pakistani Politics......Strange Bedfellows:

Hakim Ali Zardari was one of the biggest opposers of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, during the 70s, when the former was the National Democratic Party`s President of Sind. His son, Asif Ali Zardari, would later go on and marry Z. Bhutto`s daughter, Benazir Bhutto.

Zulfiqar Bhutto was one of the biggest supporters of Ayub Khan`s military govt. and started his political career, in its cabinet. He would later become instrumental in toppling it, and benefiting from the results.

Zulfiqar Bhutto appointed Zia-ul-Haq the COAS, breaking all traditions of the Pakistan military, since Zia wasn`t even a candidate for the position. Zia ended up toppling Bhutto.

Nawaz Sharif was created by Zia`s military govt., and he considered Zia his mentor. However, he became a big opponent of the next military govt.

Raja Zafar-ul-Haq considered himself the opening batsman of Zia`s cabinet. However the Mr. Raja became a staunch opposer of Musharraf`s military govt. He ended up fighting the last election against Zia`s son, Ejaz.

The religious parties were part and parcel of Zia`s military govt., and even had cabinet post(s). Yet the same maulvis have opposed Musharraf`s military govt. since it is undemocratic.

Benazir put the Sharifs` very old, barely able to walk, father in jail, and went out of her to bring the Sharif`s Ittefaq business house to its knees. Her speeches against the Sharifs were disgusting (these you`ve got to hear. I have heard one or two). The Sharifs put her husband in jail (where he still lives), and initiated some very successful corruption cases against her (due to which she is in self-exile). Recently, however, Nawaz Sharif claimed that Benazir was now his sister, and he even withdrew his own election nominaiton, as the govt. wasn`t accepting BB`s. PML and PPP even ended up putting up some joint candidates.

PPP claims ideological difference with MMA. But Benazir appointed Maulan Fazl as the head of the foreign affairs committee in her govt. They both jointly created the Taliban (Rashid, Ahmad).

The Chaudry`s of Gujrat, the new leaders of PML(Q), blame Bhuttos for assasinating their father. However PML(Q) and PPP may end up in an alliance in forming the next govt.

All said and done, their are really two parties who have not sacrificied their stances (right of wrong). One is the maulvi brigade and the other is Imran Khan`s party. The maulvi brigade has made a living out of street opposition. Who knows what they will do now that they have unexpectedly ended up in power? A dog barks and barks when he cannot catch a car, despite chasing after it for a long time. What does he do if he, all of a sudden ends up catching the car? Maybe they will start comprimising also.

Imran Khan was offered the position of a Senator, while he was in his thirties, by Zia. He didn`t take it. Moeen Qureshi`s interim govt. offered him a ministership. He didn`t take it. Nawaz Sharif`s PML(N) offered PTI thirty National Assembly seats in the election that PML swept. PTI didn`t take it. PTI supported Musharraf, uptil his referendum. PTI and Imran Khan were offered a major role in the Grand National Alliance. They didn`t take it, because some of the other parties in this alliance were shady.

Had PTI comprimised on principles, it could have filled the obvious political vacuum that has been filled by the maulvi brigade.

All said and done, I have to say that the PPP, in terms of general outlook, and PTI are the two parties I would like to see dominating the Pakistan political scene. Unfortunately, PPP is more a personality cult than a party. The day it breaks its rank with BB and throws her into the Arabian Sea, is the day it will become a true political party. That will also allow it to separate itself from its layers of feudal leadership. Until then it will remain, a pawn in BB`s hand to ensure that her and her family can continue robbing Pakistan, and have enough influence, through their party, to get away with their crimes. This is an excellent time for the Aitezaz Ahsan`s of PPP to tell BB to retire. PPP should not belong to BB. All political parties belong to the people.

As for Imran Khan and PTI, I think we are one election away from staking a claim as the second or third biggest party in Pakistan. People are fed up with the feudal parties. They are fed up with the Army. Soon they will be fed up with the maulvis. Who else is left? No one.

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airman romair,

...... you have been demoted from marshall to airman for speaking through yur dunce hat ............. stop this incesssant rattle about feudals .... and what the heck is a ``philanthrapist`` and how can zubaida jalal be a philathrapist if she doesn`t have any money of her own and what did she achieve as health minister and why did she join the quisling party and who are the big feudal lords in gwadar that she won against ......... get your facts straight - there are NO feudal lords in baluchistan and NWFP ......... there are tribal lords in baluchistan that nobody pays any attention to half the time and the guys in nwfp are friendlier than a poodle in punjab ......... name one ``feudal lord`` in nwfp ...... and for god`s sake don`t say nawab of hoti - he gets his hiney kicked in every other election .... who are they - wali of swat, meer of hunza, batagram bacha .............. nonsense! .... sure there are some traditional feudal lords in southern punjab and sind but they too are on the decline as their lands get divided and subdivided with every generation ............. you think the gardezis and mazaris are feudals ? ....... check again .... most of them are sorry wage-earners like you and i ..... .. some of the them are even struggling to make a career in the army and airforce ................ the feudals, as depicted in ptv plays, are a figment of your imagination - wake up and smell the satoo!

.................do they have some lingering influence? .... sure, but the only real feudals in pakistan are the generals who treat the country like their private langar - they are the real culprits, not poor abida hussain and mian azhar who couldn`t win even with the help from the fools in khaki ......................

..........now, if you want to get promoted back to the officer ranks start thinking like one .......... we all know risalpur doesn`t produce geniuses but with two brothers-in-law in active service i know we can do better ..............

Replying Shahbai #5

>>
Zafar what Enclosures got to do with it ...?

Food Security & Zimbabwe?

>>

Too muchheeng in ur diET!

Eveni amunderstannding parfectness.

Enclosures=surplus rural population=labour intensive factory fodder=lower labour costs=growth in some industries bcoz now profitable.

Geddit?

Land redistribution in Zimbabwe has resulted in decrease in production bcoz land going from high capital Hi productivity use to low capital lo productivity subsistence level productivity = food shortages = trouble.

Geddit?

Salaam! (bozo)