What is Islam?

dost-mittarji,

{{Your interacts however are totally based on your impressions which, even if valid, are not backed by any vedic/upanishadic/scholarly/academic evidence}}

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! I have NEVER ever claimed expertise in ANYTHING, except a teeny-weeny amount of expertise in psychiatry (which, btw, has been refered to as ``janitorial psychiatry``, by my admirers). If any of you want to LEARN anything about hinduism, I`m the last hindu you ought to turn to:)

I think I recall saying something to the effect that 99% of hindus know neither s*it nor shinola about hinduism. Well, let me HUMBLY add that I`m smack dab right in the middle of that 99%:)

But... but.. a crude, vulgar boor like me also has a right to have opinions & make observations, dont I? I dont have a problem about sadna or anybody else disagreeing with me. Heck, I dont even have a problem if people insult me in any goddamned way. In fact, if I dislike someone on Chowk, I absolutely LOVE it if he insults me. For eg, take that piece of work- Harimou...if he EVER said a SINGLE nice thing about me, I`d die of shame. Damn, where the HELL is Harimou when you need him? I never would have believed I could even say this: ``I really wish that shithead was participating in this discussion!``:)))

For what its worth, Prem & you are 2 hindus (I`m assuming you are hindu) I DO respect greatly.

Not that that should matter. Here`s some ``expert`` observation. ``Self esteem`` ideally, should come from WITHIN...not WITHOUT. If you dont like yourself, it doesnt matter if the whole world LOOOVES you. You are still going to be very unhappy & dissatisfied. Michael Jackson, Princess Diana, Marilyn Monroe are prime examples of individuals who are/were larger than life...loved by MILLIONS...but they didnt/dont like themselves, & struggle(d) with mental depression. So all that adulation means NOTHING...ZILCH.

OTOH, a guy like Dan Quayle...the whole world laughed & mocked him. But the bugger still went down slugging to the very end!:) The guy even had the balls to consider running for the Republican Primaries; until his advisors told him he doesnt stand a chance against Bush Jr! But...hey..way to go Danio!! Most people in his shoes would have been humiliated into depression...but not Dannyboy. I admire his self esteem:)

Sadna,

So...should we care if you dont respect 99% of us?! At least youre honest enough to understand that the feeling is mutual....and youre fine with it. Way to go, sadnaji!!:) But... but... respect & disrespect aside, Your Direspectfulness, do you reeeaaaly have to come to Chowk with a perpetual puss on your face? I mean...lighten up, memsaab... I know, I know, you dont care what I think...but have some goddamned mercy on some of us...I`m sorry I told you to kiss my butt...what was I thinking?!!! Even if you actually agreed to kiss my butt,... knowing you..you`d probably bite a chunk out of it....serves me right for being so stupid...

Tahmed,
I`m right here!!! Here I am!!!!

````Regarding peoples reaction to Shanker`s post, it seems you people are presuming that it was because of his anti Hindu tirade, and there may be some of that, however most and I know my criticism was for his boorish and crude comments. He has this thing with putting things in body holes and if you check, all his post are adorned with this. While it seems disgusting behavior is the in thing now, this is a public forum and a minimum decorum should be maintained``(ajeet)

ajeet miaN -- relax -- it`s just a spicier writing style -- like hamidm`s nastik posts --

don`t u get tired sometimes -- of all that bombastic blather on Chowk --

by the way where is prof hobbes sahib these days -- stuffing the votes for the MMA?:-)

My two cents:

As we all know Hinduism doesn`t have a tradition of blashphemy law. The theological differences between Hindus were settled by ``shastrartha`` or polite debates and dissidence was allowed. If Shankar jee thinks ``something`` is crapola, it is his privilege. Similarly if many of us, Sadhana jee including, disagree with him and voice opinion to the contrary it is our privilege. If the need arises, we can participate in a theological discussion if Mr. Shankar so decides. But I will support his(and others) right to say whatever they feel right till it is not ad-hominem. The bottomline is- allow people to express their opinion without fear and let the people decide what is right for them in this marketplace of ideas.

ajeet #207 Subject: Shankar.
Agreed that your objections are to his use of language. Personally, I found those references to be funny and inoffensive. But I agree on a public forum we should try to avoid language that would offend some posters.
Speaking for myself, what I find offensive and low-class is when people engage in cross-communal or cross-national insults and hatreds (of the kind jay, harimau, arjun and sometimes sadna and a few others have been posting about Pakistanis and/or muslims on chowk), even though these posts are without references to body cavities. On the other hand, I consider the substance of Shankars posts to be mature and open-minded (and he does at times target muslims and our stupid customs as much as he does for hindus), even though his posts are irreverent and with references to private body parts and so forth.
But: I agree that on a public forum like chowk one should try not to use language that is offensive out of consideration for some chowk posters. So: I have drafted the following petition for Shankar:
Shankarji: Would you consider declaring the remainder of October to be a ``Private Body Part-Free Month`` (kind of like a ``Cigar-Free Day`` as Clinton would have suggested) in deference to the public nature of this forum?

nasah sahib #209
I have not said anywhere that Hinduism is 100% reformed nor have I said I speak for 99% Hindus.

Apart from criticising me personally and ascribing to me what I have not said like you are regrettably doing, noone here has said a single meaningful thing to back up their derogatory statements about Hindu pooja, nor acknowledged what I posted on the issue.

This is precisely why I have lost respect for 100% chowk posters. May the vagina goddess and penis god(and butts of various brahmins) bless your endeavors.

ajeet,
#207
Sigh...I guess you are a relative newcomer & are turned off by my abusive, vulgar, mocking language.. Perhaps you think this has a bearing on how I have been raised, the value system my parents taught me, or what self respect I have of myself, despite my supposed credentials of being a shrink...etc etc...

..not that I have a problem with your opinion of me, mind you...

I`ve had this argument with several people. Even people who are my friends like Tahmed , scout, dostmittar have admonished me, for my language, in the past. Yaar, even they have given up trying to change me & have accepted me for the bum that I am:))) If they can resignedly ``get over it``, I suggest you do too. If you dont want to, thats fine too, but then it will be your problem, not mine..

Sir, I`m sure you have been to a Chowk in India. Whether it is a public meeting place in the ``real`` world or in cyberspace; you will meet all kinds of characters. Besides that, in a public place in India you will also have to deal with smelly beggars, mangy dogs & the frikking ubiquitous cow with her ribs sticking out. Not to mention we constantly walk in a public place in India, looking at the ground, lest we accidentally step in some human/dog/cow sh*t. We all take that in our stride, cos thats LIFE!! Otherwise dont step outside your house.

In an anonymous PUBLIC cyberspace like Chowk,(whose motto is EVERYONE is invited to meet, think & talk) you are bound to meet disagreeable characters like me...where I can be who I am & not who I think I OUGHT to be..If I use my language creatively to get past Chowk censors...too bad for you...tolerate me like you tolerate an incurable skin rash. Hey, you can always use the scroll button, you know, & pretend I dont exist.

Look at it this way...I tolerate a lot of characters here who are VERY polite, VERY cultured & VERY respectful. But as a psychiatrist I`m trained to read in between the lines & I have a fair idea what they are really thinking & saying. It offends me more that they try to say it very ``politely``. WHAT a person says is MORE important to me, than HOW he says it. Believe me, some of the very sharif characters I`ve come across here, I would be ``tempted`` to kill in the ``real`` world...So I ``sublimate`` my anger & try to kill Bambi instead.....

Wish me luck...

re#204

“You did not answer, why is the privilege of disagreeing and lecturing only shankar`s? If he speaks for 99% Hindus, why is it a problem if I disagree and speak for myself?”(sadna)

my dear shrimati Sadna ji – the answer to your question is right there in your 64 dollar question.

if we can only rephrase your question – why is the privilege of disagreeing and lecturing only shrimati Sadna’s?

If she speaks for 99% Hindus, why is it a problem if Shanker disagrees and speaks for himself?

Even though disdain and iconoclasm are NOT mutually exclusive – yet its perception like the beauty -- is in the eyes of the beholder.

I am GLAD to hear from a knowledgeable sophisticated Hindu like u --- instead of boorish ignorant Shanker -- that Hindusim is fully reformed now – as if it needed any – lucky folks!!.

my only wish – if – one day -- I could say the same about Islam.

Please please -- don’t lose respect for 99.9% of the Chowkis just because of those damn -- 0.1% of the self-hating Hindus and self-detesting Muslims.

Now where did u get the impression that we are NOT – ‘keeping out of each others way’ -- on CHOWK?

Chowk is the unique place in cyberspace -- where everybody minds his or her own business:-)

Nasah, Tahmed and others,

Regarding peoples reaction to Shanker`s post, it seems you people are presuming that it was because of his anti Hindu tirade, and there may be some of that, however most and I know my criticism was for his boorish and crude comments. He has this thing with putting things in body holes and if you check, all his post are adorned with this. While it seems disgusting behavior is the in thing now, this is a public forum and a minimum decorum should be maintained. Also, if somebody abuses you, may be you have some excuse to abuse back, however Sadna who is the latest target of his abuse has maintained her dignity and to her credit has not returned in kind.

I only advised him to use his psychiatric knowledge to figure out why this professional has this compulsion to substitute abusive and bullying behavior instead of logical and sane argument.

Tamed,

I agree with you that essential message of all religion is basically the same and the differences are mostly in rituals, which are really cosmetics. However, if you look and the history of the subcontinent, more than any other religion the followers of Islam have used their faith to destroy other cultures and people. This is not to say there are no exception. The mughal king Jallal-ud-din Mohammed Akber (I hope I have the name right), views were not too far from yours. Then there were a lot of Sufi saints who are today venerated by Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims alike.

You will argue that all those atrocities are not sanctioned by the tenants of Islam, but I whose ancestor were subjected to this inhumanity will keep an eye open, for the next Mullah Omar or Bin laden who may want to chop my head of for being a kafir. Also I advise you, that you do the same, because you may also qualify as a kafir, in the minds of the pure.

ZafarA #205 Thanks for the answer. However, I dont know the question to which this is the answer. Would you please be good enough to provide the question as well?
Also, I trust you are my old chowk friend Zafar Al Talib, who had to chop his nick in order to live again in the chowk format. Like what I had to do, and I think also poor miss Saminsha who had to drop the ``h``. Right?

nasah,

Thankyou very very much for #203. I am deeply honored that you approve...``````despite the fact you are muslim``````...

{{its time we confess the bs on our own side, rather than get cheap thrills about the bs of the other side.”(shanker)}}

Thats how this WHOLE argument started & its NOT finished...not by a long shot, as far as I`m concerned. For the first time in my experience of 3 yrs on Chowk (& that makes me, relatively, a vetran on Chowk), I saw an article written by a habitual India baiter, (AFS), write a honest, frank, blunt criticism of her own identity...rather than blame all her problems on the attitude of ``others``...(ESP hindu Indians)....Also, I`m grateful she has stayed away from this argument, cos the chip on her shoulder rivals sadna`s:)

You know, 3 yrs ago, I must confess, I was a bigger bigot than Jay...about Pakistanis & muslims.

I was raised by parents & paternal grandparents who were very traditional brahmins & very patriotic Indians. My grandfather, a brilliant man, threw away a very promising educational & career opportunity to follow Gandhi`s Quit India movement . In the process, his wife & 5 children (which included my father) were financially destitute & lived a hand-to-mouth existence...esp cos my grandpa spent most of his productive years being jailed, repeatedly, by the British. He shared many a jail cell with muslims & many became very good friends of his...(at that time Jinnah wasnt asking for a Pakistan).

However, in the tail end of the freedom struggle, the question of India being partitioned was becoming a bigger issue than getting the goras out of India. I think that was what broke him. Thats when he started getting prejudiced about muslims.... ESP muslims who wanted Pakistan. He felt Mother India was like a child that he & many many people sacrificed their personal lives for; to get ``custody`` of. To him it was a joint custody between hindus & muslims & he could not forgive muslims for wanting to cut the baby. I remember him saying that those ``pigs`` would rather dismember the baby & keep parts of it for themselves, than trust hindus. ``So if they hate us THAT much; THEY are the ones who are prejudiced...NOT us.``

I realise, now, that in his eagerness to paint muslims as prejduiced, he became MORE prejudiced than the people he was accusing:)) Another thing about prejudice...it spreads like cancer....then ALL muslims, even the ones who decided to stick it out in India became targets of that malignancy. Naturally, his influence filtered down the generations. He went to his grave,..i mean cremation... believing he (& most hindus) are much less prejudiced than muslims. As far as Pakistan was concerned; he believed that that country was created out of HATRED for hindus & would have been very happy if that whole country was incinerated from the face of the earth. I have never seen someone more joyous than when the two wings of Pakistan were divided, in 71. Now, lets be honest with ourselves, fellow Hindians...dont we all have that cancer within ourselves, to various degrees?!

I still remember his statement....``Whats the true definition of muslims?!!!...they LIVE to fight...they fight with hindus, they fight with christians, they fight with sikhs, they fight with Jews.....& when there is nobody left to fight with ...they fight amongst themselves!!!``

You know what the sad part of prejudice is? there`s always a nidus of truth in it. For eg..when one says ``blacks are lazy sobs``...yeah... many of them are. But so are many whites...& hindus & chinese....&...you get my point!

You know, my dad told me the only ``pill`` for prejudice is ``knowledge``... If human beings are ignorant about a culture, religion, or country...we fill our gaps in our knowlegde with statements that are inherently WRONG. So, if you want to stop hating somebody, start learning as much as you can about them....there is a lot you will like about them & you will realise that ``my kind of people`` are not too different from them.

So thats the backdrop from where I entered Chowk, 3 yrs ago. After all, when the 2 countries have nuclear bombs, continuing to hate each other is SUICIDE. So, I wanted to see for myself, what kind of ogres Pakistanis were. My conception of a ``typical`` Pakistani was URSTRULY. I can handle Urstruly, atleast he`s brutally honest...I like that part of him. There is something about that hobbes/hobbyty character that rubs me the wrong way...dunno why...I cant even understand 99% of what he says...but I get the feeling he`s telling us hindus that Islam is superior to our faith & every other faith...but he says it in a round about, pseudo-philosophical, gol-mal way...he`s VERY polite...he`s anything BUT crude, rude, profane & obnoxious...so is that other Islam ka mashoor pehelwan; Naqsbandhi.

However, the thing that has dissappointed me & made me ashamed the MOST, is that many many hindus on Chowk....are more like the (gasp) ``evil muslims``.....or my conception of what a muslim was!! My observation on Chowk is that most muslims, including Pakistani muslims, are open minded, respectful, intelligent & decent humanbeings. Whoah! What a revelation!! They DONT hate hindus or India, as much as I thought they did!. They/we have some ``unresolved`` issues that are more ``political`` than religious.

Besides, they tend to be a heck of a lot more honest & introspective about the shortcomings of their country/religion or culture than we Indians ESP Hindians are. At the most, we Hindians acknowledge that we are not paragons of virtue, but then, almost invariably, we try & justify it or proclaim Pakistan or Islam is worse!

OK, maybe I`m being ``reverse prejudiced`` :) or making broad, unfair sweeping generalisations of Chowk Hindians. Its just my observation...so kiss my brahminic butt. It gets me mad when guys like Jay & arjun_m repeatedly say the same tiresome things, like broken records...implyng India is a frikking paradise compared to Pakistan. Just who the F are they trying to kid?!

Its time we Hndians on Chowk started criticising the bs in our own country & own religion....the first thing to do is have a thicker skin...if you wear your religion & patriotism on your sleeve, dont cry if I think its CRAPOLA...its a sign of supreme insecurity...HELLO!!! wake up & smell the chai, ya thumb-in-the-butt-heads ...there IS bs in India & hinduism, you know...the rest of the world can SMELL it even without even using their noses!

It is a revelation to me how frikking sensitive some Hindians are. Ok, I`m rude, crude, obnoxious & profane....jeeeze tell me something I DONT know! I`m not making any excuses or apologies about how I talk...thats ME, warts an` all!

But the thing I find HILARIOUS is that I`m ``accused`` of being a ``Paki-hugger``,`` Paki-brown-noser``, ``closet Islamist``...hahaha...the IRONY never ends!:)))) And all this time I thought muslims were super-sensitive!!! Thanks to you chuts ..yet another one of my prejudices about muslims bites the dust!!!

Keep it up, ya goddamned heeng-eating dhoti-clads! Soon you`ll FORCE me to convert to Islam. Oh yeah..you`d like that would`nt you?! But tooo bad..if I had the CHOICE of converting to another religion...I WANNA BE A PARSI!! But those mofo bawas have ``closed membership``..darn it! You cant even convert if you married a bawa! Sigh...just my naseeb...I always always want what I CANT have!!

Ok, so I humbly admit it, to everyone an` all. I`m STILL prejudiced. But thanks to Chowk, its getting lesser. Sad part is, everything I thought I hate about muslims, I`m finding it, in rich abundance, in you dhoti clad bretheren of mine...

Gimme some more time to improve...jeeze its only been 3 yrs...

In the meantime, bowhunting season has started & I`m going to the woods this weekend with some friends to try & ``protect`` Michigan from Bambi & her murderous kin. Yeah, I`m an ogre...I looooove venison..hey thats ALLOWED in hinduism...er, I think... Aw, what the heck, the guys are bringing a couple of cases of beer, & we can burp & fart to our heart`s content in the beautiful woods (leaves are changing color)...without our wives telling us that its rude, crude, profane & obnoxious....

Later dudes...

nasah sahib
You didnot answer, why is the privilege of disagreeing and lecturing only shankar`s? If he speaks for 99% Hindus, why is it a problem if I disagree and speak for myself?

Disdain is not iconoclasm, whether towards Hinduism or Islam.

I grew up in a 30% Muslim state hearing muezzin calls from childhood, having Muslim friends and seeing classmates irrespective of religion compete in competitions like `Muslim wedding song`. Its not an alien religion to me, its part of my background as a culture though I mightnot know its finer points. For ths reason, long ago I used to post responses to both hamidm and sameer disagreeing with their posts against Islam, I even told sameer on one occasion (I am sure he doesnot remember either) if he marries a good Muslim wife, he will automatically understand what his religion is about. I donot do that anymore, as a Hindu I am an outsider in Islam, that was made clear on many occasions. I have also criticised elements of Hinduism and Hindutva and the caste system many times and at length on chowk. I am sorry you missed all these posts.

Hinduism has had many reformers, who knew the religion inside out which is why they were able to reform it. Simply saying crapola doesnot suffice.

Of course, this is only lecturing for you, while crapola hits the right spot.

I can assert percentage figures too, and on my own behalf. I have no respect for 99.99% of chowk posters and I am sure the feeling is mutual. Let us hope to keep out of each others way in future.

Tahmed - it was Joan Armatrading. Salaams.

“its time we confess the bs on our own side, rather than get cheap thrills about the bs of the other side.”(shanker)

U r right shanker maharaj –

very easy to warm your heart – and put a glow on your face -- oh how GOOD ‘us’ – how BAD ‘them’ – this good and bad battle -- this us and them business --- so easy to please -- your OWN KIND – so easy to displease -- NOT your OWN KIND –

BUTT -- takes LOTs n LOTS of guts to displease your own – takes NO guts to displease NOT your own

and next to impossible -- to call your own spade – A SPADE – unless u have an umbrella nearby – to avoid the brickbats.

And believe me -- I KNOW – and my father KNEW it too – not easy to be an ICONOCLAST –

merey junooN ne mujh ko kaheeN bhee nu dee panah/ maatoobe buut hooN kushtaye purvardigaar hooN –

I still wonder what prompted me to write that couplet – after all

Shanker miaN – u write: “Jeeze, all this time I thought only muslims were super-sensitive about their religion!!”

I thought so too, my friend – till I read the very measured and very respectable reactions – and got lectured --

hasan

pmishra #193 By the term ``faith community`` I assume you mean people of the same faith (hindus being one faith community, muslims being another and so forth). As for my views on this, while I am flattered you asked, they are I think tbey logically follow from my earlier posts: since all religions are in essence saying the same simple but profound things, there can only be one faith community comprising these people. That is, all well-meaning, rationally inclined, people (i.e. ordinary people, as opposed to fanatics of any religion) are part of the same faith community.

Incidentally, once again, I find this reflects what is written (but totally ignored by the most ardent ``muslims``) in the Quran: it often addresses all mankind (not just muslims), and makes it clear that there is nothing special about being a muslim. This is 180 degrees different that what the muslim chauvinists (of the kind who just won elections in the frontier province of Pakistan) fervently believe to be the case.

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