What is Islam?

roohi #178
Part of the kosher terminology of Jews is about taking care not to mix the meat of the calf with the milk of the cow, because a calf drinks that milk too. I think they (the jews) get it from the Bible.

shankar #various
Its not your bluntness which is rude, its your assumption that only you can be right and those who disagree have something up their alimentary tract. Unlike you, I donot say your views are invalid, I only say I disagree.

No brahmin has ever asked me to kiss his/her butt, you are the first. A private pooja has nothing to do with brahmins, the caste system or its propagation. But I think its established that you donot really want to know. And while I donot know who you mean by vagina goddess, (do you mean Parvati) don`t knock penises and vaginas, if it weren`t for them, you wouldnot be around. Neither would the beef, pork and chicken that you enjoy, these delicacies would have run out a long time ago.

Dost, tahmed32 ... about the common basis of religions ... aren`t they all about the inescapable consequences of evil human actions - one can dodge the laws of man but there is no hiding from the creator and no escape from the Laws of Karma or Judgement Day etc. - doesn`t religion in all forms and cultures form the bedrock of the human notions of morality, justice and ethics ?

I could be wrong but I think most people keep the ``takiya`` of religion to teach their kids right from wrong as they see it in the manner they themselves were taught - really, it is very hard to define ``good`` or human values without reference to some religion ... of course people twist and interpret religion to suit themselves too or sanction their evil actions or try to earn ``punya``, accept Jesus etc. to wash off their paap in other ways.

Shankar, Satyavadi ... about the cow ... c`mon, it`s about the milk ofcourse! What other mammal in nature drinks the milk of another without forming a bond ? It`s not like Hindus/Sikhs etc think the cow is a goddess or anything, it`s just unnatural to eat a creature after drinking it`s milk according to them (Eating baby cows (veal) and taking the mommy`s milk meant for it to make icecream is OK and Koreans are bad for eating dogs !) - Don`t know why it`s only Hindus that thought that one up honestly - it`s a no brainer. and in Indian culture the cow/bull have the place of the horse (and more) anyway - since they pulled the carts and ploughed the fields etc. I know what PETA says about the leather industry in India is true but don`t even get me started on midwestern ``feed lots`` folks!

Shankar - Sorry to say, but you DO deserve a cyber scolding for if nothing else your unending references to the great one you are named after - please read some of your kids Amar Chitra Kathas for more info on the catcher of the Ganga, the wearer of the moon, the drinker of the vicious Vish, the cosmic dancer of the Tandav, the maha yogi, the bearer of the third eye, the unending pillar of light - Shiva-Shankar, Natraaj, Pashupati, Bhoot nath, Bam Lehri, Neel Kanth or whatever you call him deserves a little more understanding from his bhakts ! Though he`s more likely than anyone to put up with a little desrespect from a Chota Shankar. Jai Bholenath and Om-Nmah-Shivaay to you !

ajeet,

{{Cool it shrinkman. Sit in front of the mirror and diagnose what you problem is. It seems to me you have a compulsive disorder, that makes you boorish and obnoxious. Also a fetish, which boosts your ego, whenever your behavior is disgusting.


This is a lay person view. I am sure you as a professional will come up with a better diagnosis}}

ROTFL!!
You want me to make a diagnosis of my personality?!
Hmmmm...how does ``FUBAR`` sound to you?
If you understand that acronym, I`m sure it`ll boost YOUR ego...

Jeeze..you enlightened guys...I tell you...you`ll be the death of me!
Poor guy like me tries to do you guys a favor by trying to yank your thumbs out of your buttholes...

You reeeaaaly wanna know whats TRUELY disgusting?!
Put your thumb on your nose & take a deeeep whiff

To all you thumb-up-your-butts hindus,

Yes I`m crude, rude, obnoxious & profane...ESP to you super-sensitive delicate darlings. Jeeze, all this time I thought only muslims were super-sensitive about their religion!!

Serves me right for being prejudiced!

Pray, how many of you objected when Solitude, Sameer or even hamid dissed the crapola in Islam?!! hahn..hahn?!!! Now when you get the taste of the same medicine, your buttholes start burning...dont it?!

Yeah yeah, no goddamned pujari will issue a `fatwa` against me or I wont get executed for ``blasphemy``. And that makes us hindus ``better``...dont it?! However, it seems to me that ,in this day & age, if I insult hinduism in that ``land of vegeterianism`` Gujrat, I`d probably get BBQed & my wife would be gang raped by banias who are soooo respectful of ANY life that they wont eat meat (even frikking BACTERIA meat!!!). Yes & all those Gujjus will go scot free because they DIDNT eat the human flesh they BBQed...After all, we have a beautiful justification....THEY started it!...THEY should have known better!!....THEY are the real terrorists!!!

Ponder THAT when you take a sip of the divine go-moothra...

And you think I come to Chowk because I want to be ``popular`` with the ``other side``?! Ofcourse!...I`m planning to run for election in frikking Pakistan...didnt you know that?! Oh noooo...maybe I`m trying to impress some muslim chicks here, to add to my harem....What is Chowk, a goddamned popularity contest?!

Just like all of you, I`m a faceless voice in cyberspace who thinks its time we confess the bs on our own side, rather than get cheap thrills about the bs of the other side.

Hey! dont get me wrong, I loooove an honest-to-goodness India-Pakistan mudsling fest...I`m on the right side, ofcourse:)

OK...time for me to do some heavy duty pooja of the penis god...

dost-mittar #140
Can you give me a reference where Gandhi said he supports the caste system? I read where he disapproved of the caste system, supported the varnas and explained why(though he later said he had changed his mind about varnas too).

Have you read Nirad Choudhari`s `Continent of Circe`? It was written in the early 60s and is a amazing mixture of amazingly astute insights(which have proved uncannily true in the interim, for instance the flavor of latest US-Pakistan alliance with Pakistan at receiving end, he understood back then) and amazingly obtuse insights both.

He quotes Mounstatuart Elphiston(whom he calls `one of the greatest adminstrators the East India Company had`) about caste

``The caste system has by no means so great an effect in obstructing the enterprises of individuals as European writers are apt to suppose. There is, indeed, scarcely any part of the world where changes of condition are so sudden and striking as in India. The last Peshwa had, at different times, two prime ministers; one of them had been either an officiating priest or a singer in a temple(both degrading employments), and the other was a Sudra and originally a running footman. The Raja of Jeypore`s prime minister was a barber. The founder of the reigning family of Holcar was a goatherd, that of Sindia a menial servant; both were Sudras. The great family of Rastia in Maratta country first followed the natural occupation of Brahmins, then became great bankers, and at length, military commanders. Many similar instances of elevation might be quoted. The changes of professions in private life are no less observable``.

Nirad Choudhari then says
``I could add to the list. It was always so in the whole history of the caste system. That it suppresses talent is a figment of the shallow egalitarian imagination.

The social immobility for which the caste system was made a scapegoat was really a product of the stagnation which was created in the social life of the Hindus by the Pax Britannica and the suppression of talent laid at its door was almost wholly due to British rule... ``

He quotes English military historian Kaye`` in connexion with the military profession : `It was the inevitable tendency of our increasing power in India to oust the native functionary from his seat, or lift him out of his saddle so that the White man might fix him there```.

NC says `` This happened in most fields, and above all, in public life, and the caste system was ready at hand to bear the blame. If the system suppressed anything it was only ambition unrelated to ability.```..

(Then he goes on to complain about the `worthless adventurers` at large in modern India :) ).

Just a one view of caste history, fyi. Lets not forget `Untouchables` were outside the caste system and so the above conclusions about mobility donot apply to them.

sadna,

{{You tried to give me dating advice and I didnot say anything. Now you are being rude because I willnot accept your verdict on my private religious practice. Is that fair?}}

FAIR!!! Who said anything about being fair?!
Here`s a newsflash, Your Highness
LIFE AINT FAIR!!!:))

Loookie ma!...I was born brahmin!!...
& if there is any mofo achoot sucker reading this post..boohoo to you...

well, actually there is a ``fairness`` to that logic...

listen up!!... all you achoot untouchables......in one of your past lives you were all brahmins...BUT, you comitted a ``paap``...like ate the flesh of a cow or stepped on a cockroach god......., its a FACT..look it up!! Shutup..be a REAL hindu & accept your naseeb like a man..(uh, wrong choice of word)...

As for you muslims....I can understand if you convert when there is a sword at your neck....but convert because Islam is a great religion?! huhn...do you reeeaaaly expect us brahmins to buy into that crap?! The biggest suckers are the brahmins who converted to Islam voluntarily. Who the heck is going to carry your bucket of nightsoil, NOW mianji...pray tell me?!..ENOUGH SAID about ``you people``..!

I regret....I take that back...I DONT regret... that you think my ``bluntness`` is ``rude``....I dont CARE what your ``private religious practice is``! Please feel welcome to do a pooja to the vagina godess..for crying out loud! hey whatever floats your boat, memsaab...

As far as I`m concerned....feel free to judge me however you want..&, while youre at it....( if its not too much bother).... could you kindly & RESPECTFULLY kiss my pure brahminic butt, huh?!..er..metaphorically, ofcourse (wink)

anarayan #168 and ZafarA #169 When I said that the core message of all religions comes down to something like ``good heart and a logical, inquisitive mind - and some basic character``, this does not imply that living your life this way will also get you respect (per Zafar`s post), nor does this imply that people tend to be naturally good-hearted or bad-hearted. You simply ASSUMED this, and that is not logical. So, brothers, I think you need to start working out on the ``logical`` part of the core message (since I am sure you are really good-hearted people already).

PS: And, of course, far be it from me to claim to be living my life in accordance with this core message. E.g., on the ``good hearted`` part, I in fact get a vicious pleasure out of reading Shankar`s jabs at certain stuffed shirts on chowk, and I dont mind rubbing it in myself when opportunity presents on chowk.

subroto,

{{Said it all the same didn`t ya?}}

DUHH!!!...or should I say ``no s*it Sherlock!`` or ``you figured it out all by yourself, huhn?! (laugh)

{{I could say a lot more on this subject but I wont.}}

Needless to say it absolutely would NOT bother me if you say something that you dont want to say, but THINK it in your mind. So just because you dont say it doesnt make you a ``sharif aadmi``, or ``enlightened`` or ``cultured`` or ``coming from a GOOD family`` in my book....hey, but dont worry, I`m not planning to sit in front of the pearly gates instead of St.Peter in judgement of your thoughts & behavior (ooops, wrong religion)...

``reminds me that probably much more serious than eating or not eating pigs is the Islamic instructions about using hands to wash butts after taking a crap... ``


Under Stukaism, u are enjoined to use an old toothbrush where the bristles have been softened by regular usage. The devotee of Stukaism experiences heavenly sensations while taking care of anal hygiene.

:)

#Veeresh
The religon you descirbe largely exists in discussion boards like these. Mostly Fiction. In practice it cannot tolerate what other thoughts. If it did what was the need to destroy the BABRI masjid?? If it was ok to worship whatever way one can then why were more than 1000 muslims killed in Gujrat? And even today not a single one of the preprators are likely to reicve any punishment. The people in charge for it are praised and keep on disparging muslims. So much for the freedom to worship what you want!!

Crap should be called crap and crapola should be called crapola. To do otherwise is not only stupid, it is positively harmful.

Far better to criticize Hinduism and fix its problems, than to shower it with ``respect`` and ignore its maladies.

As a proud Hindu (and I suspect Shankar is one too), I completely support Shankar`s right to tear my religion to shreds.

He does it with no malice. And criticism -even strong criticism- without malice is the greatest favor anybody can do any person, any system, or any nation.

Francois Gautier says . . .````What about Indian Muslims? Today we see, even though they benefit in India from a freedom they would not have in Saudi Arabia, or even in Pakistan, Indian Muslims often feel their first allegiance goes to Islam and not to India. The irony of it all is that Muslims invaded India, ran it with an iron hand, attempted to make India a totally Islamic country by forcibly converting millions of Hindus -- and today they manage to portray themselves in the eyes of the world as the persecuted.

Another strong objection from some readers: religion divides. First let me say Hinduism, as Sri Aurobindo or Vivekananda, or Sri Ramakrishna envisioned it, is not a religion but a living spirituality which has given to the world -- and still gives it today -- wonderful tools: hata-yoga copied all over this planet, meditation, or pranayama. Secondly, at a time when the two largest monotheistic religions of the world, Islam and Christianity still claim their God is the only true one, while Hindus, through the extraordinary concept of the avatar, recognise that God manifests himself at different times, in different countries, under different names and thus grant to everybody the right to worship God under any form. This is a very precious spiritual (and not religious) knowledge which has been lost to the world and which, even the most humble Hindu peasant spontaneously practices.

It is also true that things in India are not as they should be. Hindus there are not united, India is divided along caste and religious lines by unscrupulous politicians. Yes, Hindus can also be racists, as one rediff reader remarked; they do suffer at the same time, as another one commented, from a big inferiority complex, as well as one of superiority, quite an achievement! Yes, it is as well correct that expatriate Indians do often tend to become more conscious of their roots than India Indians: they will send their children to learn Bharata Natyam and will remember all the festivals. Good, there is a whole generation of upper middle class kids in India who are so desperately aping the worst of the West, that they are lost for India.

Yes, Hindus can be selfish, passive, cowardly, miserly, whereas many of them are extremely rich. ````

shankar #159
You tried to give me dating advice and I didnot say anything. Now you are being rude because I willnot accept your verdict on my private religious practice. Is that fair?

Why disagreeing with some oracles on chowk is pronounced the sign of biological or psychological or social abnormalities is something I never understand, but luckily Hindu pooja has been going on for centuries or millenia before I was even born so the two issues are separate.

IMO, the rite of pooja has a lot to do with the Hindu religious feeling of seeking personal connection with God, the nature and the earth, not necessarily in that order. You ought to take a look at that book by Stephen Huyler sometime.

Tahmed, Anarayan

Kind words and a real good heart...don`t get you no respeeeeeect...

(name the artist. name the album for extra credit).

Peace, gentlemen.

tahmed32,

I`m in an argumentative mood!

Reg your #166:
``...live one`s life in accordance with the core message of all religions (which I put as ``good heart and a logical, inquisitive mind``...``



If you have a logical,inquisitive mind...how can you (tahmed) declare (with a finality) that one should live with a ``good heart``??????

On the other hand, your logical,inquisitive mind should impel you to question EVERYTHING that constitutes your mental conditioning right from childhood...on what is good and what is bad, what religion tells me to do, etc, etc.

You would then DOUBT everything...your thinking, your experiences, etc, etc. You would then find out FOR YOURSELF why all men are (in reality) impelled towards `bad heartedness`.


But NO...you simply hang onto some cliche...and your BELIEF arising from your early conditioning...that be `good hearted` and thats enough!

What`s `logical` and `Inquisitive` about that ??????

----------------------------------------

Would you concede that Bill Gates is happier than you?? Would you also concede that he`s less `good hearted` than you?

In any case...what is the secret of happiness???? Its certainly not `good heartedness`, Is it ??!!!


have a good night,

shankar #159 You the man! (incidentally, I need to learn how to make that fancy smiley face you have discovered on this new, crappola format chowk.)