What is Islam?

Shankar #269 I this post you criticise hindu posters on chowk, clear and simple. You say they are quick to take offense at a hindu (i.e. yourself) ridiculing hinduism (i.e. hindu customs/rituals) and to call you a brown-noser, and that muslims ridiculing islam (i.e. islamic customs/rituals) are not called the same. You may be reasonably close to the facts (as evidenced in chowk posts on this board at least) when you say this. This wont endear you of course to those who see themselves reflected in you criticism. But then, as you say, you are not running for Mr. Congeniality on chowk.
The fact that you said all this without any strong language will, I am sure, not suddenly switch these people into singing ``shankar maharaj ki jai hoi`` of course. They will simply ignore what you wrote, or else call you some names. But they wont have the ``rude, crude`` stick to use anymore. So let us sit back and watch how the turkeys react.
Incidentally, paki posters like hamidm are not totally unchallenged. Indeed, I myself have at one time assured him that he was a self-hating fellow... (You see, I am not running for Mr. Congeniality either).

The self appointed Chowk moderator encourages the shrink because he gets a cheap thrill when hinduism gets dissed,just like some of the indian interactors do the jay-jaykaars of samir JB or solitude when they diss islam.I have no problem with either side of provocateurs,but I do have problems when an educated,grown up behaves like shankar has been behaving with sadna and getting away with it under the garb of introspection and freedom of speech. `Double standards` should be applied equally:)

dost-mittarji,

``I remember some panditjis` pravachans (during those unavoidable kirya/kriya karms) explaining that an individual`s soul is in a state of limbo for 13 days after death, after which it - unless it has obtained mukti/moksha/nirvana - transmigrates into another body. Can this, does this, should this be reconcilable with the concept of impermanent swarg/nark presented here?``


I wish I knew!

My opinion is that this swarg/narg business is something left over from the very ancient puranic traditions...that have somehow got mixed up with more modern (but still ancient) permament soul/moksha/nirvana theories...and as such they are incompatible.

And...as the hon`ble Drumz rightly said, all these theories can be torn apart by 15-year olds.

Sadna`s typical response to questions of this kind have traditionally been to refer people to this book or that...and I`m glad traditions are being maintained!!!

Incidentally your `hero` Buddha completely refuted the `permanent soul` theory...maybe you knew as much.

--------------------------------

However...I will venture a guess about this 13/14 day business:

In the most ancient Indian traditions, the far side of the Moon (what we call the dark-side of the Moon) has, for some reason, been regarded as dwelling place for ancestral-souls.

Some ancient books that I personally read mention this. And most of hindu ancestral worship has something to do with the Moon.

Manu, for eg., says that a month on earth is equal to a day and night for the pitri (ancestors). That our krishna-paksha (dark fortnight) is their day and our shukla-paksa (white fornight) is their night.

(Now this is an amazing astronomical statement in itself. The ancient Indians knew that the Moon keeps the same side facing earth, which the `great Greeks` do not seem to have found out).

Perhaps this 14-day (fortnight) chakkar has something to do with this.


cheeers,

Dear hindus,

To those of you who have supported my right to ``blaspheme`` my own religion, thankyou.

To many of you, who have dissed me for my inappropriate language...please throw your rotten tomatoes at me -as much as your heart desires. Like I said, I havent come here to seek anyone`s approval or disapproval. Chowk is not a popularity contest & I`m not trying to seek citizenship of Pakistan, convert to Islam or anything else. Heck, I myself have admitted that my behavior has been crude, rude & ignorant-so if you want to flame me for that; I humbly admit that I richly deserve your heckling...Your opinion of me, personally, means didley squat in the larger scheme of things. We are faceless voices operating in the anonymity of cyberspace & what we think of each other does not affect our real lives in any shape or form. Our self esteem comes from what we think of ourselves-not from what others (esp Chowkies) think of us.

However, in your eagerness to throw dirt at me, could you ponder a few things? I mean.. feel free to kill the messenger, but at least dont ignore the message--disagree with it, but at least ponder upon it.

All this hangama started when I said that :
a)not eating beef--or any kind of meat for that matter..
b)most of us dont know/understand hindu philosophy
c)most of us dont understand a damn bit of the rituals that take place during a puja
d)extolling the virtues of cow piss & sh*t..
etc etc
is all a bunch of crapola....

Whoah...some super-sensitive hindus got all hot & bothered about what I said & took umbrage at the fact that I used the word ``crapola``! Well, if those guys (& gal) are getting mad at me for dissing hinduism, but claiming theyre mad because I`m not using ``proper`` language...I`ll give you a profusion of more crapola language. Arent we a wee bit ``stuck-up`` about our religion?...what do you think ``thumb-up-your-butt`` means?! Sheesh...& I thought hindus love to think metaphorically, our mythology (as far as I`m concerned) is rich in metaphors. But it seems when one is dissing the religion, we hate colorful, anatomical metaphors.

There have been a few muslims who have dissed Islam. Muslims have disagreed & argued with them..but they are not accused of ``trying to impress hindus``. There have been more than a few Pakistanis who have dissed everything about Pakistan. They have not been accused as ``Indian brown-nosers``. However, during those fights, I have seen many hindus gleefully cheering from the sidelines & adding to the argument with generous dallops of ``heeng``.

We hindus think muslims are sensitive about their religion & intolerant towards anybody who criticises it. Yes, Islam has been hijacked by fundos who have spoilt its good name by introducing blasphemy laws & comitting acts of terrorism. Most muslims on Chowk readily admit that & are hurt about the fact that they have to defend Islam in a world that is becoming increasingly hostile to them.

In our eagerness to revel in the above, I think we hindus should ponder about what is happening to us. We are sensitive & intolerant about criticism of our religion. As a group, we are becoming more militant. We are becoming more prejudiced. Our religion is shamelessly hijacked by our fundos. We dont have blasphemy laws; but events have shown that if muslims ever challenge us, we conduct pogroms & BBQ them shamelessly. Then we make ``excuses`` like..``they started it!``..``they are Paki sympathisers!``. We have a CM in Gujrat who shamelessly grandstands those events. How many hindus have been taken to task for that kind of behavior?!

In the same vein, if I`m critical of Indian behavior in Kashmir, does it make me a Paki brown noser? I hate ``freedom fighters`` & Pakistani behavior in Kashmir as much as the next guy. But does that let us off the hook? How many times can India abuse human rights & get away with it? Blaming Pakistan is , many times, a convenient cover-up. Dont tell me the average Kashmiri doesnt know that!

So, we come back to a full circle. AFS was bold enough to write an article of the bs she percieves in her own religion. Well, bravo to her! Its time all of us stuck to criticising the bs in ourselves..rather than harping about the bs of the ``other side``. We`ll be better people for it. Er..an honest to goodness mudsling fest, once in a while, can be fun too:)

As far as my crass language is concerned, I`ll try to control my mouth...but its hard for a dog to start meowing...but please focus on what I`m saying, rather than how I`m saying it. Please feel free to scorn me, though....I`m not standing for election here..the sun will shine, the birds will sing & s*it will continue to happen in your lives & mine...despite what some of you guys think of me...

dost #264,
I remeber that sardar ji joke match that happened between you (?) and (who I don`t remebmber)

A milder non-offensive humor goes much better with me. I reserve other brand only for very intimate friends (who I know will not get offended)!!

friends

Yep, Dost-Mittar Sahab appreciates good humor but he doesn`t write in a humorous way, may be satirical sometimes. anNy has more of a cutie pie type of endearing style. Hamidm is the real witty guy. He has a very unique writing style embellished with wit and satire that I have not read anywhere else. Sameer`s writings very often belong to an altogether different brand of what I call ``scientific humor``, if you know what I mean. From the Indian side, subroto attempts some good humor at times. Stuka-Ali1 fights also generate some hearty laughs. Zafar employs very sophisticated humor in his writings and sometimes his posts are very funny. For instance, I still remember one of his posts in which he summarised hobbyty`s writings in the form of a very funny dialogue. Rsaxena also cracks some good humor at times and he is at his best against scout.

PS Excuse my commenting upon humor. As you all know I completely lack this quality and hence may not be even qualified to comment upon it.

dost-mittar #259
You could look up this book : Death to Birth Understanding Karma and Reincarnation by Rajmani Tigunait. Don`t know whether you will find your answers in it though, I read the karma part and totally skipped the death/reincarnation part, as it was a bit too spooky for me.

Dr Shankar,
That thumb up the butt thing, does that signify some homosexual self gratification or do U mean they R like confused babies who dont know 1 end from the other & put their thumbs up the wrong end? Unusual (not to mention uncomfortable) imagery. Whats the psych underpinning - inquiring minds & all that.

anNy #255
Cutie-pie,
A grown man should act like a grown person. If he prefers to act like a mumbai mawali, he should expect to get same treatment.

dost-mitter#259,
Dost,
I think (only my opinion, no hard facts) many of these customs were just created by our pundits. Many got created by ignorant public just following the words and not the meaning behind them.
I do not know the rationale behind impure soul or 13th day ceremony.
But another puja that appears to be quite unexplainable is ``styanarayan`` puja.

Subroto #254
`double standards`
Actually its simply explained. As I wrote in #171:
``Why disagreeing with some oracles on chowk is pronounced the sign of biological or psychological or social abnormalities is something I never understand``

There is blasphemy on chowk too, and that is defined as contradicting the established demigods of chowk. One established demigod on chowk is only following the established chowk practice of asserting his infallible godly status by posting many post defending himself personally, many abusive posts about a dissenter (elaborating on my anal/social/psychological deficiencies) and not a SINGLE one explaining himself on the subject of dissent( in this case Hindu pooja).


Where the issue of Hindu reform is concerned, its is also a question of who is expert in what.

Some Hindu reformers were social activists, some were religious scholars, some were political activists, others were simply listening to the call of their conscience, all approached Hindu reform through honestly reexamining the ideas and practices in their field of expertise for the benefit of their coreligionists. The celebrated reformer on chowk honestly applies his anal expertise to Hindu reform. We should not be ungrateful, they also serve who stand and itch.

#252,
Nasah maharaaj,
As far as Shankar mian`s edicts are concerned.
``Par updesh kushal bahutere``
Every ``bhai`` in Mumbai, and every charltan in our UP throws such edicts around, all while doing his day`s work.

Do not compare Hamidm with our pennls god. Hamidm does not need a human target to convey his point of view. On the other hand, pennls`s ire is always directed towards a human target.
When vile and crudeness covers 99% of message, remaining 1%edicts are lost.
Such ``humor`` and ``comedy`` is tolerable to me only to an extent. I would rather prefer a straight dose of facts and plain language (which ``Sadna devi`` and many others very gratefully provide).
If you really prefer humor, check anNy, or hamidm, or dost-mitter.

Subroto #254 Agreed on your ``only objection`` that Shankar should not use sexual/toilet references when referring to another chowk poster. I had made a very gentle plea to this effect in a post below to Shankar which he either did not read or did not bother to respond. So, I continue to share your ``only objection`` to Shankar`s posts. There simple way to handle the situation I think: Having made the above point, ignore Shankar`s posts, thus depriving him of the joy of getting everyone worked up. If you feel strongly about it, you may even wait till opportunity presents itself (as it always does on chowk since no one is perfect) and ask Shankar about the location of his thumb when he was writing the post (or something like that).
Having said this, we should keep our perspective. There is no question that Shankar is one of the many normal people on chowk - not one of those who seem to have crawled out from under a rock, full of venom and hate and/or inferiority complexes which they try to compensate for on chowk.

friend
does your kind self not think it mindblowingly unfair to ask a grown man to talk like a painfully perky, irritating made up little girl whose cuteness knows no limits :P

subroto
no dimwit marra..you are almost wicked..cheers and all that to you too!

nasah #253:

No you are not that certain somebody. You are the voice of reason, moderaton AND leftism(:-) ) on Chowk, not the decency/morality police. The morality police also used to be the anti-chauvinist, anti-nationalistic icon of Chowk, until he was exposed a few months ago. But now he is not even moral or decent. Sorry about my ramblings and hope they made some sense :)

I am all for self-criticism and all, but in yours or Hamidm`s or even Urstruly`s(only for self-criticism though) styles. Not like this moron with anal fetish.

Cheers!
satyavadi

RE nasah #252 ``...anatomically correct orificially proper language.. ``
hee hee, with you the hole way there sir.

``I sincerely believe that if we all started taking care of our OWN garbage -- instead of pointing fingers at Other’s garbage -- this WORLD will be a much CLEANER place``
On total agreement there too sir. My only objection to all this language/shanguage golmaal going on here is the double standard being applied. A certain interactor in the past was the target of uncouth language and everyone jumped to her defence, even speculating on some form of censorship (which was thankfully not applied). Now a popular interactor treats another interactor with similar language and is commended for his progressive outlook on life.
Heck I have nothing against irreverence, its a quality I cherish - yes Hamidim I too am fan - its just the way its being said that I commented about about.


Regards,
Subroto