What is Islam?

Re: # 29

not contradicting ur point so please dont mind me replying to ur interact...

just on a side note tho...i think sarwari was brought up in the US and then moved to pakistan because i am guessing she and her husband chose to..i think i read it on some other site:)

Re: # 20

hahahaa because everything in this world isnt created to be eaten by humans..haha imagine the sight...

Re: # 101

Oh my gosh!!!!

Look who is talking religion!!!! hahahahahahahaha!

Now this is funny!

Sleeping Buddha though is qn amazing eperience, even Nuwara Eliya is some place, was there last month!

Re: # 20

Dude Allah also made human beings... so will that make us eligible to be cannibals??

I guess the Muslims in Pakistan are obsessed with sex and alcohol, while those living in the West by pigs. Unfortunately this seems to be the primary focus of religion for many while loosing track of the fundamentals ie. doing good and being nice to others.

Sadna #346
I offer a looooooong bow .....
Thanks.
I have nothing to hide about my upbringing. My ``pita``, fortunately, permitted me to defend myself, both by arguments and as well as by other means whenever required. And it has served me well.

I like your posts (and of several other people). So keep writing. (and leave the old bandicoots to bouncers)

Regards

#351

Shubh aagman.
GuR kya Raab bhi mil sakti hai:)

Get ready (and warn Bhabhi jaan as well) to be surprised one day. Since I reached the U.S. of A., have been looking to discuss rabi and kharif; jowar and bajra with someone. We can try some ganne ka gud as well as Ghalib :)

# 349

AmaN yaar,
this is typical UP ishtyle of making fool of simpletons like me.Me and culturally knowledgeable is pretty funny, agriculturally knowledgeable is more like it.And I am not too far from you,it`s only 8 hour drive from ny
to toronto.

regards.

re: Banjaara # 348

HAHA....

Dada ji, aap tau ustaadon ke ustaad hain, mahaarathee hain; binaa aap ke haath lagaaye UP se Lahore tak kucch bhi uthane waala nahi hai :)

Vaise, agar allah ka karam rahaa tau one day I will seek you out....you are one of the most culturally knowledgeable persons I have met. In this day, when uncouth people draw pride in parading their pathetic ignorance, you are quite a treat.

Bhai Prem,

I am sure you have never gone back on your word,after all UP ki izzat ka sawal hai, parantu 345 ke prashnoN ka uttar meri samajh se bahar hai?
koi `gauna` le jaanay ki baat ho tau hameN bhi yaad rakhna :)

PS: Was the vendor female? fighting females is not on even if stupid........

I_can_not_believe_this@hotmail.com

(95, colva, some stupid vendors)

---------------------

Banjaara bhaiya,

I have never ever gone back on my vachan, unless people have worked hard to prove themselves completely unworthy.

friend #337
It gets pretty ugly on chowk and in this instance, I am grateful for bhai pehelvans, not least yourself, like I said in #330. Once the mukka-mukki goes to upbringing and mata-pita, it may be best to let those making such comments stew in their own juices.

Yessssss!! You are!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) I have been searching for you for soooooooo long !!!!!!!!! :) :)

Please don`t be angry. I will tell you about me! Please answer one more question to make certain! Not playing mindgames. Only making sure.

PCS+SM ?year ?beach ? fight with whom?

Can you answer those questions to remove any doubt??? I am her younger sister!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Prem # 343

Raghukul reet sada chali aayee
pran jaay per vachan na jayee ;)

Regards.

re: 339

My dear lady, I may as well be a serial killer from Uganda.

Now listen to me. If this is your idea of a prank, you must know that I do not appreciate it in any shape, manner, or form. There are certain things I do not allow anybody to play with. Least of all my friends and acquaintances. So you had better start by telling me who you are. What does your nickname have to do with the real YOU?

All your information about me is correct. So, if you know me, help me place you. Or else, get lost.

That is the most polite thing I can say to you right now....because I don`t suffer people who try to play mind games with me.

Best regards.

bhayankar# 340
You write exactly like whatis expected from a fallen mud-pit warrior. Don`t worry doc. I will be watching you. Go to any sh*thole, or to any pigsty, always watch your back. If you misbehave with anyone, I will fill the hole in your butt.

#340 by Bhayankar
Now you are speaking exactly like a fallen mud-pit warrior.
Go and find another sty. Chowk has made it easier to locate you. I will come and again teach you manners. Same goes for your old bandicoot buddy.

tahmed,

There is no sense trying to argue with that butthead:). Let him feel good about himself--as much as his heart desires. Its absolutely hilarious that he gives ``credit`` to himself, for trying to ``reform`` us! It was posters like Prem & roohi who I agreed with, that I apologised to sadna:))

But hey!....if he wants to praise his own grunts...who am I to argue with His Greatness?! Its obvious he loooves to wollow in the same sh*thole, but has a convenient ``excuse``...he`s doing it to ``bell me!!!`` :))

We`ve said what we wanted to say...people have agreed & disgreed...lets just keep it that way...let the idiot rejoice in his self-proclaimed ``victory``..yup! if he wants to get the gold medal in ``sh-t kabaddi``--I`ll be GLAD to personally put it around his neck! Better him; than me!...so I HUMBLY concede victory to this champion...but its getting b-o-r-i-n-g to wollow over & over, when we already have a self proclaimed champ!

So I humbly say farewell to this thread & if friend wants to join me in a sh*thole in a future thread, he`s more than welcome!

you are?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tell me please. phd from c ny?

re: # 329

Is this a bloody joke? Who the hell are you?

#336, Ahmek,
Wah wah! Kya likha hai old bandicoot ne!
Dada jaan, meine farmaya tha ki Shankar miyan ki to bell lag gayi hai par dada jaan bahut bude hain aur woh abhi tak nahin seekh paye hain. Mein phir bhi koshish zari rakhunga. After all I will always do my duties without worrying about getting paid.

Aur yeh slap ke chakkar mein mat aao dada jaan, ultee bhi pad sakti hai. After all, I am THE champion mud wrestler.

And I know that you will come back. After all, being an old man you can`t accept defeat.

(BTW, Meri mata ji and pita ji used to talk about a senile old man who used to sit on nukkad always leering at passing girls. Unhe bataoonga ki aap abhi bhi jinda hain aur wahi karte hain)

friend #335 I am back, having given a slight increment to my ``idiot time budget``.
You say you have put a bell around Shankar`s neck, but failed to do so with me. BUT, you have indeed won a great victory over me as well. I bow to your infinite ability to exchange insults. Looks like you were well trained in this business from childhood, no doubt watching mata and pita ji start the day with a demonstration: Something like this:
mata ji: Oy friend kay aba! tera beta ``friend`` saara saara din chory a computer kay samnay betha retha hai.
pita ji: nakami aurat! is b-c ko kon samjhayy.
mata ji: hai hai! kaysi gandi gaaliyaN bakta hai! phooti meri kismet!! hai! hai! hai!
and so on.
Having been so well trained at exchanging results, I admit you are indeed the victor. I have demonstrated you to be a liar, but that is no problem. You are used to people calling you that. You also have this great affinity with other men`s private parts to which you constantly refer, and clearly you are a champion in this field. In real life, of course, particularly if you are one of those skinny little chaps who have learnt programming, you would probably a single slap would floor you. But on chowk, you are the champion, my friend. Hail to you!!
PS: Now I have used up my incremental budget for ``idiot time``, and you are free to write post after post calling me names. That is your privilege as the champion mud wrestler on chowk.

Ajeet,
You have to give credit to this x-rated guy for putting bell around shankar`s neck. I tried very hard with other one. But Tahmek is too old to learn. I will still keep trying.

Wallah,

I stay away for a couple of days, and wonders have happened. Sadna and Shanker have made up. Shanker has toned down some of his ultra retoric. Another x rated guy calling himself friend has appeared on the scence. Some things have not changed. Tahmed is still busy calling people idiot if he doesn`t like them.

More later.

#331 shankar the bhayankar -
Are not we getting touchy!! It is good that you identify yourself to be pig wallowing to be in mud. But why this objection to anyone else doing same. After all wallowing in the mud appears to be only way to straighten you up.
You may go and choose another sty. But be careful, if you misbehave again with anyone anywhere, I will again drag you out of your sty and cut your pennls to size.
Same goes for your uuscratch partner.

Shankar

``UPites form the majority of Indians. Now could you tell us why your cohorts behaved like such junglees in the State assembly``

Majority ??. my cohorts?? (*perplexed look on the face*). Anyways since you dont know, it has been a long standing tradition in UP that if a child is talented, parents push him towards engineering, medical, management etc. and if he is ``naa-laayak`` or good for nothing, he is encouraged to join politics. And it is a tacit understanding amongst UPites to keep electing these naa-laayaks to the State Assembly(villagers and slum dwellers help us in this endeavor) so that the rot can be contained and these people do not harass sharif commoners. Additionally these naa-laayaks provide us free entertainment, which is a bonus in the otherwise joyless lives of us commoners.

PS Aur Thackeray miaN ke kyaa haal-chaal haiN. Suna hai ke court meiN peshee hai. Jail jaane ki koi gunjaaish hai.

friend,

I`ll tell you the result of my analysis--self or otherwise...I take full responsibility for being a pig wollowing in a sh*thole & making a point..which atleast some people acknowlegde, is a valid one.

You, on the other hand, insist on wollowing in the same sh*thole as I do & squealing that your fellow pig wants to act like some messiah & that tahmed wants to fill bahmad`s shoes. Your porcine brain cant fathom that we are our own unique personalities (warts, farts, grunts an` all) & dont feel the need to act like people we are not.

But I`m honored you want to share the sh*thole with me. After all, imitation is the best form of flattery. But with you hogging up most of this swill, its time for me to move out of it & find me another sty..

Pankaj
Don`t know about UP Bhaiyas but am thankful for the bhais.

Prem,

PCS?

Ahmek#326
Mirror mirror on the wall ...

Penls-less god #327,
So you are back. What was result of your self analysis? Could you find the old khunnas that is so ingraved in your mind.

Now you two are together, do a uuscratch.

friend #325 The first sentence provides a glimmer of hope that you will one day develop a real sense of humor. Inshallah. The rest of your post is gibberish as before (Out of the sheer goodness of my heart, I am now stretching my ``idiot time`` beyond the allotted budget).
PS: And lets keep the late bahmed out of this nasty little ``discussion``. I have had real discussions on real issues, and real agreements and (just as often) real disagreements with bahmed on chowk. But not once did he (and I do try to live up to bahmed`s example of civilized behavior on chowk, even if not successfully all the time) display the angry, irrational and insulting behavior that seems to be second nature to you.

Yo friend,

I see a cow about to take a leak, on the horizon...now be a good boy & run towards her...its about time you took a shower...

Dear old bandicoot,
We just grow wild ;-) Atleast you called us people.
I am sorry, you are not foaming. You are fuming & frothing.

Now relax, take a deep breath, count till three. And think. Now is the phase where you must reconcile yourself to your limitations. You can never be Bahmad. Once you accept that, you will enter the phase of building your self estem again. And that will be the time when your frothing will stop.


Your friendly little old man

friend #321 I seem to have used up all my ``idiot time`` for now. Sorry I cant carry on this conversation.

friend #321 Incidentally, the main para in your post is gibberish. And the final sentence imitates what I wrote, and imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, I thank you for that.
Also, I see you failed cut and paste anything from my post to back your claim that I was ``foaming``. This proves my point that you were merely getting back at me for pointing out the ``bile factory`` inside you.
Now I think I have really run out of ``idiot time``. (Are people like you raised in special schools in India, or you just grow wild?)

``could you tell us why your cohorts behaved like such junglees in the State assembly? The western media got a huge thrill showing the free-for-all pandemonium. I know Indian democracy can be ..er..coloful..but that was hilarious.``

{*mutters quietly to himself: how else are junglees expected to behave if not like themselves? changes gear before Shankar da appears on stage *}

My dear Shankar,

What unfortunate misinterpretation! What you call ``free-for-all pandemonium`` was nothing but vociferous display of democratic agreement; what you construed as the throwing of chairs was, if truth be known, a disciplined form of intense physical excercise; and what you saw as profusely bleeding reddened noses (and broken, dangling arms) resulted from medical experiments undertaken by scientifically trained representatives of the residents of heaven. To amaze and astonish foreigners is a duty we take very seriously.

We are lucky indeed to have been born UPites, the best, the brightest, and by far the jungliest.

Our brother Biharis don`t come close.

Hope matters stand clarified now.

#320 by Old Ahmek
Oh you meant #312. I realize my mistake, you were not in that compartment. Had you been there than my post would have made sense.
You are right you don`t object till you get paid.

your immature little friendly man.

friend #319 I meant your post #312. Also, please cut and paste the part of my post where you think I am ``foaming``. Seems to me you are merely trying to get back to me for pointing out the bile-ridden nature of you earlier posts.
As for calling me names - I have been called many names on chowk, generally by individuals whose pretensions have been deflated and have nothing left to say other than call me names. By calling me names, you are merely indicating to me the immature little man that you are.

#318 by tahmad32 -
Old bandicoot,
Now you are foaming very hard. Are you replying to Soysauce #215 or to me (#316)? Decide soon so that I can reply.

Always your friend

#317 Banjara
Yaar, please write a translation. I couldn`t get it.

friend:

Instead of - u scratch my balls etc, how about a typical UP response which carries more class ;)

`` mun tora haji ba-goyam, tou mara haji ba-go``

shankar #309 Finally! A post where you address your old buddy after all this trouble he went through for not pitching in with the madding crowd! The negative mail does not bother me - not every chowk poster gets criticized for NOT writing something (kind of like the dog that criticized because it did not bark). So I take these expressions of hurt feelings and outraged holiness (including friend`s unfriendly post to which I will come to next) as being in fact expressions of praise and admiration. (Who needs a thick skin when rose-colored glasses are available?).

Friend #315: I can picture that bile-making factory that was custom fitted into you overflowing as you read the last sentence above. You are now getting ready to write another one of your shi!tty little posts telling me off once and for all. But wait! You are now confused, since you are not sure whether you should do as I say you will do, or not. So folks, please stand by for the exciting finish to this ``discussion``: will friend pour his high-pressure bile onto the next post, or will he keep building up the pressure inside him and not write that post? We shall soon find out...

#309 by shankar to tahmed,
`` I get a feeling they are acting out some unresolved past khunnas....pray, let them feel good about being holier-than-thou... ``

Yaar, what kind of psychologist are you? do some self analysis!! Now this new raag of ``I didn`t anything, they have some old khunnas!!``, Yes I have an old khunnas that you didn`t return 25 cents you borrowed from me in 5th grade.

You and this old-bandicoot - We used to have a phrase for this kind of relationship - uuscratch (aka uucp)- u scratch my balls- I scratch yours.

Hasanji:
You fall into the same trap that everyone does at some point or the other, of mistaking an anonymous chat room for the larger society. Here there`s ABSOLUTELY no reason to have this insidious philosphy that only muslims can criticise muslims, etc. It`s true in the real world only because the consequences can be grave and the effectiveness of criticism can be blunted by labeling someone hindu-lover, etc. Without these impediments we are supposed to let it all hang out here.
That said, i should point out that the flip side of only muslims can, etc. is that a random muslim is expected to criticise all and sundry anywhere in the world if it`s done in the name of islam. An ordinary muslim or a hindu is expected to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders. Very unfair i say.
Sadhana mentioned at some point that reform has come from within hinduism. That`s being very chartiable, taking a very broad view of what a hindu is. It`s only a little more restrictive than saying reform to human actions has come from within humanity. An obvious and ridiculous statement you`d agree. Those that agitate for reform are always from the margins and labeling them hindu is a matter of convenience. There`s also another aspect. Sati was not abolished by hindu reformers. Vidyasagar and Ram Mohan Roy only provided the cover of dharma so the brits could ban it. It was only nominally reform from within.

sadna,

Thankyou for being a such a good sport...I was wrong about you..

Pankaj,

UPites form the majority of Indians. Now could you tell us why your cohorts behaved like such junglees in the State assembly?:) The western media got a huge thrill showing the free-for-all pandemonium. I know Indian democracy can be ..er..coloful..but that was hilarious:))

sadna,

Thankyou for being a such a good sport...I was wrong about you..

Pankaj, Prem,

UPites form the majority of Indians. Now could you tell us why your cohorts behaved like such junglees in the State assembly?:) The western media got a huge thrill showing the free-for-all pandemonium. I know Indian democracy can be ..er..coloful..but that was hilarious:))

banjaara & satyavadi,

Yaro, give tahmed a break, hahn! Porky here doesnt need anybody`s ``encouragement`` to wollow in mud--it is a natural instinct... I knew full well what tahmed`s views were about colorful language , before I ..er, wollowed...so drop it, already!..even a middle aged pig loves to wollow..so if it hurts a 20 something that a pig wont ``grow up``, please feel free to throw mudballs at the pig...he doesnt mind...

tahmed,

I dont feel you have to justify what you did or did`nt do to these enlightened characters. I get a feeling they are acting out some unresolved past khunnas....pray, let them feel good about being holier-than-thou...

satyavadi #303 If you tell me you were offended only at shankar`s manners, and not at his ridiculing of hindu rituals, then that is fine. Even my unlimited time does not permit me to go and research the course of interaction on this board. I see you are also offended by my suggestion to talk straight (``like a man``, and this is a phrase with no offense to the many fine straight-talking women on chowk) - you are welcome to let this criticism slide by terming it cheesy. This criticism was based on your earlier post, so I consider it quite justified. If you dont believe it was fair criticism, that is your call and no skin off my back.
Amen, and go in peace. (I would draw a halo here, if only I knew how).

#302 by tahmed32
``To repeat my earlier post (since, unlike you, I have unlimited time), I am not paid to write a post each time some poster uses nonflattering language with a lady (or a gent, or any other creature on chowk). ``...

Few weeks ago, a drunk man forced his way with a mentally handicapped 11 year (?) girl in a compartment of a running train in Mumbai. 6 people were in compartment. No body objected - as it was not their job. Are we witnessing a similar apathy here.?
This old man writes atleast 5-7 responses every day on chowk. He has time to read posts, congratulate some and chastise others. But he must get paid(!!) or must be officially given responsibility (what does he want, some sort of virtual cyber sheriff badge) before he will act to stop anything wrong happening. Is not expressing your unapproval is absolute must to indicate the socially acceptable pattern?

I can very well imagine this sick old man sitting in that train compartment, applauding the drunk man and later saying, ``My applaud applies only to sermons coming out of drunk person`s mouth. Where did I applaud the act? I do not get paid to stop him forcing his way.``

It is just sickening.

nasah #305 Agreed that it is much better that muslims bash muslims and hindus bash hindus. Much, much better. So, with your permission...
a. Why are muslim societies having so much trouble realizing that we are living in the 15 century AH (=21 century AD), not the 15th century AD.
b. Why do so many muslims in denial about 9/11?
c. Why do so many muslims call you ``brother`` or ``sister`` - but only if you are a muslim as well?
d. Why do so many muslims think that Great Muslim Civilization invented everything and borrowed nothing?

I feel better already.

nasah sahib #306
Please, a person of your experience and wisdom has nothing to apologise for, aap mujhe sharminda kar rahe hain.

I too apologise for my language. All of us come to chowk with a message each, which are all equally worth examining and I on my behalf also donot apologise for questioning the supremacy of any particular individual or his message on chowk.

My dear Shanker miaN –

I am glad that u have apologized to Sadna for your language – and I am glad that Sadna has accepted your apology and in turn apologized to you for her language –

Please in future never address ladies with that bhayanker diction.

But -- I am also GLAD that u did not apologize for your message –
your message is a solid one – for which you MUST NEVER apologize to anyone.

This is a message that needs to be heard on loudspeakers – needs to be hammered on the heads of BOTH -- Muslims and Hindus – that there are bigger holes in the fabric of THEIR societies, cultures and Religions –that need to be mended – and mended fast –

and that before or even – while you are looking into the eyes of OTHERS -- trying to remove the proverbial STRAW – it’s a healthy idea for your eyes – if you can feel and remove the BEAM from your own eyes as well.

But most importantly what Shanker is saying correctly that -- the MESSAGE has to be delivered by the MUSLIMS to the MUSLIMS -- and by the HINDUS to the HINDUS – NOT vice versa..

Although it is good for a community to hear from OTHERS -- how they see us -- because it gives the members a perspective that is never available to them on their own.

Yet – unsolicited OUTSIDE criticism – especially from those self-righteous folks become counter productive -- who themselves have bigger holes to mend in their own fabrics -- but present them -- as glorious designs of their not so glorious traditions -- while gleefully pointing the warts and moles of other`s faces.

usually it ends up having just the OPPOSITE effect – it INHIBITS reforms and -- it WEAKENS the reformers of the other party -- who desperately try to work from the INSIDE -- to modernize their respective communities.

The fact is -- regardless of how much they want to – the Hindus CANNOT reform the Muslims – and the Muslims can NEVER reform the Hindus –

the RSS Goondas can never reform Muslim’s out of their backward Personal Law – (remember Shah Bano?) -- they actually helped the Mullas to ruin the case.

similarly the Jihadi murderers cannot wean Hindus off of their Hindutva sour bottles

the process of DESENSITIZATION -- which Shanker has correctly identified as -- the FIRST STEP – to the PATH of -- modern MUKTI – or new age NIRVANA --

will have to come from the INSIDE -- with the likes of Shankers and Hamidms – not from OUTSIDE – of the likes of urstruly ji and arjun miaN.

And here is the crux of this discussion – as to why -- smart alecshanker the Great -- minus his orificial language – is such a valuable serious -- social critic -- of his community --

because his critique has a healthy effect on `others` -- besides his own.

when a Muslims who bashes his OWN Muslims to wake them from the centuries old delusions – sees a Hindu bashing his own Hindus – it fills him with, confidence, courage, and camaraderie of a common cause --

and most importantly -- it lightens HIS burden of being called an apostate, a traitor, a brown nose , a hindu lover, a hindutva pleaser -- etcetera, etcetera.

Believe me – it’s rather an unkindest cut to call these people -- ‘cheap’ thrill seekers – or they take pleasure in ‘dissing’ their own community -- they are NOT – and they do NOT --

if anything – they are the ‘DEADLY’ THRILL seekers – as the rushdies, the tasleemas, the mahfouzes, the professor shaikhs of this bigoted world -- would gladly testify any time to.

hasan

And my apologies to our progressive sadna -- if urstruly`s posts have crossed the boundries any time --

may we be friends again:-)

Pankaj, Hum UP waalon ki shaan hi kuchh aur hai.

If there is heaven on earth, it is UP, it is UP, it is UP.


Allllllliright folks, no one should laugh now :)

tahmed32:

Regardless of which part of Shankar`s post you were cheering for, you clearly were encouraging him when he was being cruder and cruder in every post. Also, its disingenuous of you to pretend that everyone that objected did so was because Shankar had critcised some aspects of Hinduism, when clearly most of the objectors did mention his language as the reason.

You have been very quick to judge folks on this forum in the past and are now getting a taste of your own medicine. Sorry if this second fall from your high horse hurt bad. Shouldn`t you take the hint and get off it?

Lastly, can those cheesy ``not a man enough`` lines. You clearly have the literary skills, the time and enough obsession with Chowk, to do much better than that.

Until next time,
Satyavadi

PS: It was brave of Shankar to clearly apologize for his language.

#290 and #292 - Oh I didn`t notice these. At last, that is a good beginning.

Banjaraa #295 You write ``I have neither the time nor the erudition nor the wish to counter your points. ``
Good. Now we can all do something useful with our time. But...
You continue ``The language used for a lady was not very flattering and your silence on “that” was tantamount to double standards.`` To repeat my earlier post (since, unlike you, I have unlimited time), I am not paid to write a post each time some poster uses nonflattering language with a lady (or a gent, or any other creature on chowk).
And finally (aaah!!), you write ``This ends my response to the subject.``
Amen. Hope you will keep this promise.

tahmed32#295

I have neither the time nor the erudition nor the wish to counter your points. The language used for a lady was not very flattering and your silence on “that” was tantamount to double standards. This ends my response to the subject.

Regards.

There seem to be quite a number of UPites on Chowk. Let`s see:

1. Prem- Lucknow
2. Friend(?)
3. Sadhana
4. Banjaara: honorary UPite
5. Myself :-)

#287 by shankar on October 15, 2002 7:46am PT
shankar the bhaynkar, (it sounds funnier than writing pennls god)

You are overestimating your posts. Who gives a single penny about what you write for hinduism! Whatever you write about religion is your opinion and I don`t (and shouldn`t) care a hoot about that.

Few other have been more patien and have written very clearly where you crossed the lines. However it appears that you are still under illusion that all brick-throwing is due to your great ``reformer`` role and your crap writing style has nothing to do with it.

I learnt to have thick skin quite early in life. And that comes handy whenever I need to play shit-kabbadi.

Till next time.

Banjaara

Have you heard about a poem that was one of my favs in high school days:

Hum BanjaaroN ki kyaa hasti hai
Hum aaj yahaaN kal wahaaN chale
Masti ka aalam saath chalaa
Hum dhool udate jahaaN chale.

There seem to be quite a number of UPites on Chowk. Let`s see:

1. Prem- Lucknow
2. Friend(?)
3. Sadhana
4. Banjaara: honorary UPite
5. mastram2
6. Myself :-)

banjaraa #293 You clearly dont mind twisting the truth to make your point: You selectively pick from Shankar`s post, ignoring the part I was focussing on. There were two parts to his post, the first to Godot, the second to Sadna. You ignored the part to Godot, when it should be clear that that is the part I was responding to, and made it look like I was congratulating him for insulting Sadna.
To see what I mean, let me cut and paste the first part (the part you ignored):
Shankar #159 godot,
{{``..but i must confess it is probably not right for grownups to pull santa`s beard and say these things in front of the little kids..``
Yes!!!! Praise the Lord!!!! hamidm has seen the light!!!!!}}
Yo! godot, i hate to diss you cuz you`ve been nice to me (SMILEY FACE HERE).
My take on hamidm`s quote was that he is pulling your leg sarcastically & mischeviously. Are we ``little kids`` on Chowk? that we should feel offended if some of us choose to be ``irreverent`` & ``disrespectful`` of the institution of religion ESP if we see a lot of CRAPOLA in it?!
OK, those of u who make such a biiiig to-do about religion, how insecure are you guys?!.... if some ``secular fundamentalists`` choose to mock our religion..hey its OUR choice....if your feeeeelings get hurt..boohooo..``

NOW read my post #167, and look at the references to the ``smiley face`` and the ``crapola`` part and it is clear what part of his post I was responding to. The second part of his post that you quoted was to Sadna, and he has now apologized and Sadna has accepted, and all is well with them. You can now fault me for ignoring that part of his post, and for not dumping on shankar for that second part of his post and that is fine me too. I am not paid to sit and correct people`s manners on chowk. I do it only when I feel like it, and if that bothers too, that is too bad.
PS: Glad you learnt to talk straight finally, and to address me directly This is an improvement over the oblique references to the ``self-proclaimed chowk moderator`` in your last post. Keep working at it and you may go the next step and learn not twist facts to make your point.

Tahmed32 # 280

No... I am not clever.The entire chowk knows who is the self-appointed
moderator and the chief of morality. It`s YOU.

jaanay na jaanay gul hi na jaanay
baagh tau sara jaanay hai

regards.

dost-mittar,

Here is a quote from shankar #159 addressing sadna and the response from Tahmed #167.

If you were a man, I would have said ``you dont have your thumb up your butt...your ARM is in there--up to your elbows, at least..!``...but since youre a lady, I WONT say it...

shankar #159 You the man! (incidentally, I need to learn how to make that fancy smiley face you have discovered on this new, crappola format chowk.)

Introspection? humour??
Regards.

shankar #290
Apology accepted and I too am sincerely sorry if my comments were hurtful. Actually I generally agree with you more often than I disagree, including on this topic.

Dost-Mittar

Banjaara jee to mast-maula aadmi hain. And both of us can speak the same language(literally:-) ) although he can speak many more languages than me. The nick Banjaara completely suits him. Since he has a truly ``Banjaara`` spirit, he is far more neutral than most of us. His posts are always short and straight to the point, something that I prefer.

Prem & roohi,

OK OK, I stand corrected.

Sadnaji,

I SINCERELY apologise for crossing the line with you. I dont expect you to lessen your contempt for me, but I`m hoping that you will forgive my comments about you. Not for nothing, but when I`m rude, I dont intend to be malicious.

Shankar the bhayankar...that was a good one.

Friends, family, and foes, almost a year (may be longer) ago, I had advised a Pakistani friend - a genuinely decent and delightful person - to focus on the content of Shankar`s message, not its particular articulation (if that was bothersome to them). We Indians (in this case, us Hindus) need to adopt the same stance.

Having spanned the entire spectrum of social contexts, I am neither partial to nor repelled by any degree (or kind) of crude language. But I AM deeply offended by public rudeness to women. Such rudeness is unfair - women rarely have a chance to pay the offender back in the same coin.... And where there is no reciprocity, bigotry makes it home. Therefore, I sincerely wish Shankar was much much more careful in this matter.

Barring that, puhleez! let`s not be so sensitive about our religions. NO progress has ever been made by people who are profoundly ``respectful`` of their religions.

Total ``respect`` to one`s religion is moral and intellectual death, a deliberate murder of the self. If we are to have a living moral and intellectual framework, people - those without malice - MUST be allowed to question, criticize, blaspheme, poke fun at whatever they want to. If what they say doesn`t appeal to us, we are free to ignore them.

On this day, we may well want to remember Friedrich Nietzsche (thank you, Garrison Keillor). Christians of his time mustn`t have liked to hear his words. But today, much of the Christian West pays its respects to such giants. If Christianity is a great civilized religion today, it owes considerable gratitude to people like him. He wrote:

``I condemn Christianity. I bring against it the most terrible of accusations that ever an accuser put into words. It is to me the greatest of all imaginable corruptions.... It has left nothing untouched by its depravity. It has made a worthlessness out of every value, a lie out of every truth, a sin out of everything straightforward, healthy and honest. Let anyone dare to speak to me of its humanitarian blessings! To do away with pain and woe is contrary to its principles. It lives by pain and woe: it has created pain and woe in order to perpetuate itself. It invented the idea of original sin. It invented `the equality of souls before God` - that cover for all the rancour of the useless and base.... It has bred the art of self-violation - repugnance and contempt for all good and cleanly instincts.... Parasitism is its praxis. It combats all good red-blood, all love and all hope for life, with its anæmic ideal of holiness. It sets up `the other world` as a negation of every reality. The cross is the rallying post for a conspiracy against health, beauty, well-being, courage, intellect, benevolence - against life itself....

This eternal accusation I shall write upon all walls: I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity,... for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, mean! I call it the one immortal shame and blemish upon the human race!``


Shankar is no Nietzsche. But only those who show us our faults can help us grow.

Cheers.

anarayan #271

``Sadna`s typical response to questions of this kind have traditionally been to refer people to this book or that...and I`m glad traditions are being maintained!!!``

If you mean to say that I say `I am glad traditions are being maintained`, actually thats not what I said nor what I believe. In any case I have never been to a kriya/karam and know nothing about these things.

The two `wakes` I attended, inspite of the grief, one of the things debated by the bereaved in both cases was about how meaningful are the prescriptions for last rites because given the whole thing about karma, how can a person`s afterlife be determined by what rituals his mourners choose to do for him/her after he/she is no more?

And Kabir said (about ancestor worship not last rites, I think) that `you are so particular about feeding your parents` spirits long after they are dead, but you had no problem ill treating them in their old age when they were alive`.

That pretty much sums up my attitude towards both rules and rituals such as not eating cows and pitr puja and other rituals. Rituals and rules have meaning only if you are consistent and aren`t trying to compensate for your real deficiencies. If not rituals and rules are simply a cover for hypocrisy.

btw Kabir too mentions orifices. He says something like (sorry its not exact, can one of the many Kabir experts here please oblige) `you say you are a brahmin and something very special, so how come you were brought forth by the same route as a chandal` :)

friend,
#273

Your points are well taken. However, in your eagerness to treat me like a Bombay mawali, please understand that I have agreed that I should be treated like one:) I got no problem with that. I got no problem with any of you trying to cut my penis down to size either. Heck, I`ve said I richly deserve it, did`nt I?

Now if a Bombay mawali like me threw rotten tomatoes at people & then cried because people threw rotten tomatoes back at me, it would be a different story. But in the midst of all these flying rotten tomatoes, if I flip the bs in my religion & some hindus get mad at that; but conveniently blame my rotten tomatoes for the reason of their anger..then I will say a thing or two about it..

This is not a question of my ``ego``, ``popularity``, ``chamchagiri`` or ``immaturity``...its a question of all of us (hindus & muslims, alike) developing a thicker skin on Chowk & focussing on the bs in ourselves; rather than feeling good about the bs of the ``other`` side.

Over the last 3 yrs, my feeling is that we hindus (including me) have taken a great thrill dissing the ``other`` side...be it Islam or Pakistan; but when we get the taste of our own medicine--we howl with outrage. And when an uncouth brahmin like me makes us swollow our own medicine, its a lot easier to get angry at my boorishness, my ``self-hate``, my ``need to please the other side`` etc...than admit that our medicine, indeed, tastes very bitter.

Its also my observation that Pakistani muslims are more apt to be more introspective about the bs in their religion & country, than we Hindians (hindu Indians) are....but then, its just one person`s opinion...

Now, please feel free to throw more rotten tomatoes at me & trim my penis down to size....fortunately, I have a thick skin..I would RESPECTFULLY implore some of you Hindians to thicken your skins...until then; we might as well take Subroto`s advice & drop it...

#272 by tahmed32 reminds me of an old fable. Let me share that again -
A camel decided to get married. He decorated himself and started inviting all the animals. Animals came to the party. At last a donkey came and congratulated Camel. Oh Brother camel! you are looking really beautiful and handsome!! Camel was overcome with this praise. He responded, ``Brother Donkey! you too have a wonderful voice, please sing us a song``
----
Oh English literature ke gurus, remind me of english equivalent of ``ek thaili ke chatte batte.`` Is it ``birds of same ...``? I have forgotten the idioms taught by my Sinha sir ;-)

Now forgettting these silly analogies

``The fact that you said all this without any strong language will, I am sure, not suddenly switch these people into singing ``shankar maharaj ki jai hoi`` of course. They will simply ignore what you wrote, or else call you some names. But they wont have the ``rude, crude`` stick to use anymore. So let us sit back and watch how the turkeys react. `` ...

Lo jee, why won`t turkey react? Is it a bizli ka switch ke Shankar Maharaj switches off his vulgar posts and turkey`s are supposed to applaud him instantly. Basic civil behavior is expected from everyone and Shankar maharaj is no exception.

BTW, Ahmed mian, you were advised earlier, and again being politely advised, please stop dreaming of filling the shoes of bahmed. They are too big for you.

And like Subroto said, these letter typing consumes too much energy, and in this economy, I would prefer to keep my gainful employement and earn my $$, I will perhaps keep quite for a while.. But then.. who knows ;-)

Dear Shankar - I loved your post #93 ! Please never stop writing like that - people like Buddha and Nanak have said what you did in kinder words afterall. I was actually more put off by your joining the so serious and sermonizing Sadna bashers than anything you said about Hinduism - you`re not going to change the woman Shanks, any more than anyone is going to change you !! I liked her (solumn as usual, so what?) post #110 about your #93 too - where she had said the folksy myths and stories we grew up with do have the same philosophy as the Sanskrit classics - she`s right - after reading lots of stuff recently I find a blind begger in Bihar singing bhojpuri Bhajans knows as much as I do after reading this stuff. Which is not to say there isn`t crapola in Hinduism - there is a lot of narrowminded caste, customs and superstisions in there which is just harmful and nonsense and now all this ugly hatemongering hindutva stuff - I`d take your version anyday !! Anyway - got to go - have to finish making the ten-headed-ravan pinata for my kids to bash (good idea huh ?!) for this crapola thing called Dushehra ... it`s today, O irreverant one - a happy one to you too !!!

P.S. - Could you please give certain ``Monstahcow``s, ``Hindu``s and other sundry langots on certain other cybersites a taste of your wit instead of picking on sweet saddie ? ZAT is too nice to call them names ...

`cheap thrills` -- `cheap thrills`:-)

In the Turkish Hammam of self criticism -- not self aggrandizement -- called Chowk -- where everybody is naked -- some people INSIST taking showers fully clothed in holy garments -- while enjoying the unflattering view of others.

now THAT is called -- seeking `cheap thrills` :-)

Subroto #276 I had ignored Banjara`s note since (presumably in attempting to be clever) it did not provide the reader the courtesy of specifying who he meant with ``self-appointed chowk moderator``. As such, the letter deserves no attention and I had ignored it.
You refer to his letter to explain to me why I am applying a double standard in not condemning Shankar. I have written two posts explaining my views on this issue. Let me repeat again: What I consider offensive is the denigration of an entire community. A couple of pakistanis (Urstruly and Ali1) sometimes would ridicule hindus as a community, and I wrote posts protesting this behavior on their part. A number of Indian posters routinely ridicule pakistanis and/or muslims as a community, and I write posts protesting this behavior on their part. These protests (whether directed to Indian or Pakistani hate-mongerers) includes ridiculing the poster himself at times, and has not endeared me to these turkeys. I dont care.
Shankar DOES NOT fall in this category of hate mongerers. He is obviously comfortable with his Indian heritage, and secure enough to criticise it. You and a couple of other posters like dost mittar are offended by his language, and you have every right to be. But others I know are using this ``language issue`` to get back on him for daring to ridicule aspects of hindu rituals. At one time, harimau and Rsaxena (two of the less savory characters on chowk) would routinely ridicule shankar when he wrote anything criticising hinduism. Now it seems to be open-season with others jumping on the bandwagon.
Long note, and sorry to have to drag on this topic. But this I think is what happens when people ignore what someone is writing (as my earlier two posts have been ignored), and when they obviously have not yet learnt how to talk straight like a man (like banjaraa and satyavadi before him and their dark references to some unnamed poster).
I dont know if this clears

RE 260 by tahmed32
Sir aap phir meri baat nahi samjhe. I have heard and read far more colurful language so as to get embarassed by butt kissing expletives. My point was the double standard being applied here. Banjara sahib (#270) has articulated it well enough. Lets just drop the issue now as it is consuming far too much energy - I have never submitted so many posts on a discussion thread before - the inherent lazy person is me is unable to handle such a large amount of typing, as it is the scroll button works overtime these days.
End of story, khattam shudh, finito, sampla.....no more......
aaaggh runs screaming from the room....the men in white coats follow silently...

meanwhile in a small steak bar in Montana....

Banjara #270::

[[The self appointed Chowk moderator encourages the shrink because he gets a cheap thrill when hinduism gets dissed,just like some of the indian interactors do the jay-jaykaars of samir JB or solitude when they diss islam.I have no problem with either side of provocateurs,but I do have problems when an educated,grown up behaves like shankar has been behaving with sadna and getting away with it under the garb of introspection and freedom of speech. `Double standards` should be applied equally ]]

Shankar and the self appointed moderator(also the ex morality police and the deposed anti-chauvinist icon) HEAR HEAR!!!

Satyavadi

#269 Shankar:

You indulge yourself too much in believing that you flipped the Hindus (what about the non-Hindus, no comments for them?) because you wrote a few posts criticising Hinduism. Infact I am not sure if your gibberish could even be called crticism.

You and your self-proclaimed chamchas know why you got the responses you got. Its because of the filthy Bombay Mawali language, the utter lack of substance in your posts and your flagrant insults to a specific poster.

Its sad that I am writing all this to a person who is atleast 15 years my senior. But then as Banjara said, you need to grow up.

from Banjara #270:

[[[The self appointed Chowk moderator encourages the shrink because he gets a cheap thrill when hinduism gets dissed,just like some of the indian interactors do the jay-jaykaars of samir JB or solitude when they diss islam.I have no problem with either side of provocateurs,but I do have problems when an educated,grown up behaves like shankar has been behaving with sadna and getting away with it under the garb of introspection and freedom of speech. `Double standards` should be applied equally ]]]

Pennls god,
``We are faceless voices operating in the anonymity of cyberspace & what we think of each other does not affect our real lives in any shape or form. Our self esteem comes from what we think of ourselves-not from what others (esp Chowkies) think of us.``....

If you are doing only because of anonymity offered to you by cyberspace, you are more of a self centered moron than I thought you were.

You have all the rights to blasphame your religion or anything else. But if you want to play with filth while interacting, you must expect filth to be thrown your way. If you offer your butt, you must expect someone to fill all the holes (and make few more).

Perhaps you are under the impression that by eating beef you became somewhat unique or special. No sir, there are many others who eat beef (and pork, and frogs) and just do not care. Difference is that while you make it a point to make mockery of those who do not acknowledge greatness bestowed upon your pennls-ness by eating beef, many other don`t give damn about whether you eat beef or shlt.


``However, in your eagerness to throw dirt at me, could you ponder a few things? I mean.. feel free to kill the messenger, but at least dont ignore the message--disagree with it, but at least ponder upon it....``

Feel free to bring a message but do not expect everyone to accept you as messenger and do not insist that everyone takes your message. If you insist for acceptance as some divine all-important messenger, you will receive rotten tomatoes.

I certainyl do not expect a pea-brain like to you to learn this lesson easily. You will soon again start sticking your pennls everywhere try to be pennls- god and someone will again be tempted to cut that to size.

Shankar #269 I this post you criticise hindu posters on chowk, clear and simple. You say they are quick to take offense at a hindu (i.e. yourself) ridiculing hinduism (i.e. hindu customs/rituals) and to call you a brown-noser, and that muslims ridiculing islam (i.e. islamic customs/rituals) are not called the same. You may be reasonably close to the facts (as evidenced in chowk posts on this board at least) when you say this. This wont endear you of course to those who see themselves reflected in you criticism. But then, as you say, you are not running for Mr. Congeniality on chowk.
The fact that you said all this without any strong language will, I am sure, not suddenly switch these people into singing ``shankar maharaj ki jai hoi`` of course. They will simply ignore what you wrote, or else call you some names. But they wont have the ``rude, crude`` stick to use anymore. So let us sit back and watch how the turkeys react.
Incidentally, paki posters like hamidm are not totally unchallenged. Indeed, I myself have at one time assured him that he was a self-hating fellow... (You see, I am not running for Mr. Congeniality either).

The self appointed Chowk moderator encourages the shrink because he gets a cheap thrill when hinduism gets dissed,just like some of the indian interactors do the jay-jaykaars of samir JB or solitude when they diss islam.I have no problem with either side of provocateurs,but I do have problems when an educated,grown up behaves like shankar has been behaving with sadna and getting away with it under the garb of introspection and freedom of speech. `Double standards` should be applied equally:)

dost-mittarji,

``I remember some panditjis` pravachans (during those unavoidable kirya/kriya karms) explaining that an individual`s soul is in a state of limbo for 13 days after death, after which it - unless it has obtained mukti/moksha/nirvana - transmigrates into another body. Can this, does this, should this be reconcilable with the concept of impermanent swarg/nark presented here?``


I wish I knew!

My opinion is that this swarg/narg business is something left over from the very ancient puranic traditions...that have somehow got mixed up with more modern (but still ancient) permament soul/moksha/nirvana theories...and as such they are incompatible.

And...as the hon`ble Drumz rightly said, all these theories can be torn apart by 15-year olds.

Sadna`s typical response to questions of this kind have traditionally been to refer people to this book or that...and I`m glad traditions are being maintained!!!

Incidentally your `hero` Buddha completely refuted the `permanent soul` theory...maybe you knew as much.

--------------------------------

However...I will venture a guess about this 13/14 day business:

In the most ancient Indian traditions, the far side of the Moon (what we call the dark-side of the Moon) has, for some reason, been regarded as dwelling place for ancestral-souls.

Some ancient books that I personally read mention this. And most of hindu ancestral worship has something to do with the Moon.

Manu, for eg., says that a month on earth is equal to a day and night for the pitri (ancestors). That our krishna-paksha (dark fortnight) is their day and our shukla-paksa (white fornight) is their night.

(Now this is an amazing astronomical statement in itself. The ancient Indians knew that the Moon keeps the same side facing earth, which the `great Greeks` do not seem to have found out).

Perhaps this 14-day (fortnight) chakkar has something to do with this.


cheeers,

Dear hindus,

To those of you who have supported my right to ``blaspheme`` my own religion, thankyou.

To many of you, who have dissed me for my inappropriate language...please throw your rotten tomatoes at me -as much as your heart desires. Like I said, I havent come here to seek anyone`s approval or disapproval. Chowk is not a popularity contest & I`m not trying to seek citizenship of Pakistan, convert to Islam or anything else. Heck, I myself have admitted that my behavior has been crude, rude & ignorant-so if you want to flame me for that; I humbly admit that I richly deserve your heckling...Your opinion of me, personally, means didley squat in the larger scheme of things. We are faceless voices operating in the anonymity of cyberspace & what we think of each other does not affect our real lives in any shape or form. Our self esteem comes from what we think of ourselves-not from what others (esp Chowkies) think of us.

However, in your eagerness to throw dirt at me, could you ponder a few things? I mean.. feel free to kill the messenger, but at least dont ignore the message--disagree with it, but at least ponder upon it.

All this hangama started when I said that :
a)not eating beef--or any kind of meat for that matter..
b)most of us dont know/understand hindu philosophy
c)most of us dont understand a damn bit of the rituals that take place during a puja
d)extolling the virtues of cow piss & sh*t..
etc etc
is all a bunch of crapola....

Whoah...some super-sensitive hindus got all hot & bothered about what I said & took umbrage at the fact that I used the word ``crapola``! Well, if those guys (& gal) are getting mad at me for dissing hinduism, but claiming theyre mad because I`m not using ``proper`` language...I`ll give you a profusion of more crapola language. Arent we a wee bit ``stuck-up`` about our religion?...what do you think ``thumb-up-your-butt`` means?! Sheesh...& I thought hindus love to think metaphorically, our mythology (as far as I`m concerned) is rich in metaphors. But it seems when one is dissing the religion, we hate colorful, anatomical metaphors.

There have been a few muslims who have dissed Islam. Muslims have disagreed & argued with them..but they are not accused of ``trying to impress hindus``. There have been more than a few Pakistanis who have dissed everything about Pakistan. They have not been accused as ``Indian brown-nosers``. However, during those fights, I have seen many hindus gleefully cheering from the sidelines & adding to the argument with generous dallops of ``heeng``.

We hindus think muslims are sensitive about their religion & intolerant towards anybody who criticises it. Yes, Islam has been hijacked by fundos who have spoilt its good name by introducing blasphemy laws & comitting acts of terrorism. Most muslims on Chowk readily admit that & are hurt about the fact that they have to defend Islam in a world that is becoming increasingly hostile to them.

In our eagerness to revel in the above, I think we hindus should ponder about what is happening to us. We are sensitive & intolerant about criticism of our religion. As a group, we are becoming more militant. We are becoming more prejudiced. Our religion is shamelessly hijacked by our fundos. We dont have blasphemy laws; but events have shown that if muslims ever challenge us, we conduct pogroms & BBQ them shamelessly. Then we make ``excuses`` like..``they started it!``..``they are Paki sympathisers!``. We have a CM in Gujrat who shamelessly grandstands those events. How many hindus have been taken to task for that kind of behavior?!

In the same vein, if I`m critical of Indian behavior in Kashmir, does it make me a Paki brown noser? I hate ``freedom fighters`` & Pakistani behavior in Kashmir as much as the next guy. But does that let us off the hook? How many times can India abuse human rights & get away with it? Blaming Pakistan is , many times, a convenient cover-up. Dont tell me the average Kashmiri doesnt know that!

So, we come back to a full circle. AFS was bold enough to write an article of the bs she percieves in her own religion. Well, bravo to her! Its time all of us stuck to criticising the bs in ourselves..rather than harping about the bs of the ``other side``. We`ll be better people for it. Er..an honest to goodness mudsling fest, once in a while, can be fun too:)

As far as my crass language is concerned, I`ll try to control my mouth...but its hard for a dog to start meowing...but please focus on what I`m saying, rather than how I`m saying it. Please feel free to scorn me, though....I`m not standing for election here..the sun will shine, the birds will sing & s*it will continue to happen in your lives & mine...despite what some of you guys think of me...

dost #264,
I remeber that sardar ji joke match that happened between you (?) and (who I don`t remebmber)

A milder non-offensive humor goes much better with me. I reserve other brand only for very intimate friends (who I know will not get offended)!!

friends

Yep, Dost-Mittar Sahab appreciates good humor but he doesn`t write in a humorous way, may be satirical sometimes. anNy has more of a cutie pie type of endearing style. Hamidm is the real witty guy. He has a very unique writing style embellished with wit and satire that I have not read anywhere else. Sameer`s writings very often belong to an altogether different brand of what I call ``scientific humor``, if you know what I mean. From the Indian side, subroto attempts some good humor at times. Stuka-Ali1 fights also generate some hearty laughs. Zafar employs very sophisticated humor in his writings and sometimes his posts are very funny. For instance, I still remember one of his posts in which he summarised hobbyty`s writings in the form of a very funny dialogue. Rsaxena also cracks some good humor at times and he is at his best against scout.

PS Excuse my commenting upon humor. As you all know I completely lack this quality and hence may not be even qualified to comment upon it.

dost-mittar #259
You could look up this book : Death to Birth Understanding Karma and Reincarnation by Rajmani Tigunait. Don`t know whether you will find your answers in it though, I read the karma part and totally skipped the death/reincarnation part, as it was a bit too spooky for me.

Dr Shankar,
That thumb up the butt thing, does that signify some homosexual self gratification or do U mean they R like confused babies who dont know 1 end from the other & put their thumbs up the wrong end? Unusual (not to mention uncomfortable) imagery. Whats the psych underpinning - inquiring minds & all that.

anNy #255
Cutie-pie,
A grown man should act like a grown person. If he prefers to act like a mumbai mawali, he should expect to get same treatment.

dost-mitter#259,
Dost,
I think (only my opinion, no hard facts) many of these customs were just created by our pundits. Many got created by ignorant public just following the words and not the meaning behind them.
I do not know the rationale behind impure soul or 13th day ceremony.
But another puja that appears to be quite unexplainable is ``styanarayan`` puja.

Subroto #254
`double standards`
Actually its simply explained. As I wrote in #171:
``Why disagreeing with some oracles on chowk is pronounced the sign of biological or psychological or social abnormalities is something I never understand``

There is blasphemy on chowk too, and that is defined as contradicting the established demigods of chowk. One established demigod on chowk is only following the established chowk practice of asserting his infallible godly status by posting many post defending himself personally, many abusive posts about a dissenter (elaborating on my anal/social/psychological deficiencies) and not a SINGLE one explaining himself on the subject of dissent( in this case Hindu pooja).


Where the issue of Hindu reform is concerned, its is also a question of who is expert in what.

Some Hindu reformers were social activists, some were religious scholars, some were political activists, others were simply listening to the call of their conscience, all approached Hindu reform through honestly reexamining the ideas and practices in their field of expertise for the benefit of their coreligionists. The celebrated reformer on chowk honestly applies his anal expertise to Hindu reform. We should not be ungrateful, they also serve who stand and itch.

#252,
Nasah maharaaj,
As far as Shankar mian`s edicts are concerned.
``Par updesh kushal bahutere``
Every ``bhai`` in Mumbai, and every charltan in our UP throws such edicts around, all while doing his day`s work.

Do not compare Hamidm with our pennls god. Hamidm does not need a human target to convey his point of view. On the other hand, pennls`s ire is always directed towards a human target.
When vile and crudeness covers 99% of message, remaining 1%edicts are lost.
Such ``humor`` and ``comedy`` is tolerable to me only to an extent. I would rather prefer a straight dose of facts and plain language (which ``Sadna devi`` and many others very gratefully provide).
If you really prefer humor, check anNy, or hamidm, or dost-mitter.

Subroto #254 Agreed on your ``only objection`` that Shankar should not use sexual/toilet references when referring to another chowk poster. I had made a very gentle plea to this effect in a post below to Shankar which he either did not read or did not bother to respond. So, I continue to share your ``only objection`` to Shankar`s posts. There simple way to handle the situation I think: Having made the above point, ignore Shankar`s posts, thus depriving him of the joy of getting everyone worked up. If you feel strongly about it, you may even wait till opportunity presents itself (as it always does on chowk since no one is perfect) and ask Shankar about the location of his thumb when he was writing the post (or something like that).
Having said this, we should keep our perspective. There is no question that Shankar is one of the many normal people on chowk - not one of those who seem to have crawled out from under a rock, full of venom and hate and/or inferiority complexes which they try to compensate for on chowk.

friend
does your kind self not think it mindblowingly unfair to ask a grown man to talk like a painfully perky, irritating made up little girl whose cuteness knows no limits :P

subroto
no dimwit marra..you are almost wicked..cheers and all that to you too!

nasah #253:

No you are not that certain somebody. You are the voice of reason, moderaton AND leftism(:-) ) on Chowk, not the decency/morality police. The morality police also used to be the anti-chauvinist, anti-nationalistic icon of Chowk, until he was exposed a few months ago. But now he is not even moral or decent. Sorry about my ramblings and hope they made some sense :)

I am all for self-criticism and all, but in yours or Hamidm`s or even Urstruly`s(only for self-criticism though) styles. Not like this moron with anal fetish.

Cheers!
satyavadi

RE nasah #252 ``...anatomically correct orificially proper language.. ``
hee hee, with you the hole way there sir.

``I sincerely believe that if we all started taking care of our OWN garbage -- instead of pointing fingers at Other’s garbage -- this WORLD will be a much CLEANER place``
On total agreement there too sir. My only objection to all this language/shanguage golmaal going on here is the double standard being applied. A certain interactor in the past was the target of uncouth language and everyone jumped to her defence, even speculating on some form of censorship (which was thankfully not applied). Now a popular interactor treats another interactor with similar language and is commended for his progressive outlook on life.
Heck I have nothing against irreverence, its a quality I cherish - yes Hamidim I too am fan - its just the way its being said that I commented about about.


Regards,
Subroto

Yaaro – what’s going on – an INQUISITION of Shanker the Bhayankar -- some sort of blasphemy trial of apostate shanker al hindi –

one by one all my dear friends and brethren are lining up to cast stones on satan S -- or something -- at Mount Chowk!!

but seems like-- the shrink has no intention of shrinking –

folks if -- shanker sounds so bhayanker to you guys – just IGNORE him – or ATTACK him in the same anatomically correct orificially proper language as lady sadna did ---- and forget about him.

and I am not that ‘certain gentlman’ who is egging shanker -- my friend satyavadi ji -- I am NOT the chowk police of morality and decency -- I am NOT maulana naqshbandi sahib-- please --

I enjoy hamidm`s post immensely -- that`s one reason I stick around --and i enjoy shanker`s post equally -- they BOTH are hilariously funny -- yet dead serious as social critics.

And I DO subscribe to shanker`s magnificent EDICT -- if not the language --

{{its time we confess the bs on our own side, rather than get cheap thrills about the bs of the other side.”(shanker)}} --

I sincerely believe that if we all started taking care of our OWN garbage -- instead of pointing fingers at Other’s garbage -- this WORLD will be a much CLEANER place.

And please don`t tell ME only Islam is full of it -- and Hinduism is NOT.

and as far as PROFANITY is concerned it`s not the exclusive monopoly of shanker maharaj -- as sadna devi will attest to it – Chowk is definitely NOT Mother Teresa`s ashram –

so why this injured innocence!

Shankar,
another free advice
Compare your style to anNy and find why she, while writing equally bluntly, is a delight to read.

Re anNy, tahmed
The thing about sunshine in Alaska (and this from a friend who stayed there) is that it can get to be boring and monotonous after some time.....just like...
oh well cheers and all that
boringly yours
Subroto
chowk`s resident dimwit

anNy #247 to shankar:
``u are like sunshine in alaska``
Ditto that.
``thumbs uppingly``
Heh! Heh!

shankar #245

``For the time you & I have been on Chowk, I`ve put up with your boring, monotonous ramblings ...``

Many will say this for you, oh worshipper of pennls-god!!.

``Trouble is, I looove to mess with super-sensitive nutjobs like you. ...``

Oh yes, let us see that. Tell us first, what is your intention behind cyber-rakhis.... what hidden desire of yours is leading you to that behavior

from friend #230 on the ANAL NARCISSIST Shankar:

[[[[I think you wanted to say ``crass`` rather than ``facetious``. I personally find Sadna`s posts mostly based on some hard facts and logical argument. As far as Shankar`s jokes are concerned, any bus conductor or driver in Haryana Roadways can crack more vulgar and funny jokes.
As shrink is happy to analyze everyone else, let me try to analyze him. He is an older version of YLH (I must concede, YLH appears to have changed), totally enamored with himself and his self image. YLH was hiding himself behind Jiye Jinnah, Jiye Bhutto and all the mumbo jumbo. Shankar hides behind his penis god and vagina goddess jokes. He likes distributing Rakhi`s over Internet. And my experience says that people doing that are hiding a lust behind their rakhis.
When faced with an opposition to his views, he will not oppose opponent`s views. Rather, he will try to wave his degrees, make fun of opponent`s command of english, or his education, and if everything else fails, will enter the realm of crassness and crudeness.]]]]]

Everything I had wanted to say about that moron.

And a certain somebody on Chowk who fancied himself as the morality and decency police of Chowk, is egging this narcissistic moron. Ironies never cease.

shankar
u are like sunshine in alaska
thumbs uppingly
anNy

sadna devi,
#222

Thankyou! The downright contempt is mutual.

For the time you & I have been on Chowk, I`ve put up with your boring, monotonous ramblings with the very same contempt that you have put up with my irreverant, crass language. You come to Chowk with the same expression Clint Eastwood has in those spaghetti westerns....you know..like..``I have perpetually inflammed hemorhoids; so dont mess with me``...

Trouble is, I looove to mess with super-sensitive nutjobs like you. I`ll reserve my right to needle you..Please feel free not to respond to me...like thats going to drive me to suicide-NOT!!

Mr. akhanusa

Welcome to the club of rationalists. Your extremely scientific views are laudable Sir. Sir, the existence of Lord Ram is as true as the existence of King Solomon or Moses or the fact that Prophet(pbuh) indeed rose to heaven from Al-Aqsa mosque. Poor jews inspite of being so intelligent are also stuck with their wailing walls. To your superior intelligence, eating pork is forbidden since God said this to Prophet himself (scientific evidence please) but the existence of Lord Ram is surely in doubt since your majesty says so. I bow to your superior ``revealed`` knowledge and ask your forgiveness for having questioned your ``True`` convictions based on ``The Book``. Of course the ``evidence``(if it is permissible) that Lord Ram was born in Ayodhya as written in Ramayana entirely unacceptable as it is a false book and the only true book is ``The Book``. O Allah, O Jesus, O Eeshwar, I was following a false religion up till now; praise be to angel Khan for my spiritual awakening. May I suffer in the most fearful Kumbheepak nark till eternity for this unforgivable sin...

Admiringly yours

Anarayan

``1. Hanuman leapt 500 miles southwards from the southern tip of India to reach Lanka. SriLanka is only 50 miles or so I believe.

2. Ravana`s Lanka was situated ON the equator.
``

Incidentally the word used in Ramayana for distance between southern tip of India and Lanka is ``100 yojan`` and not mile. Miles were not used as a measure of distance in ancient India. Secondly SriLanka is actually close to equator(8 deg North of equator, I believe). You can, of course, talk about the ``leaping`` part, but that I believe is a figure of speech, a charcterristic of most of the religious texts including Quran, Bible and Talmud, written in those days. Anyways I belive what one should gather from religion is the emphasis on moral values and virtues and should be wary of using them as a substitute of science or trying to prove their scientific validity.

Dost-Mittar and anarayan

``Narg is somewhat complicated. There at least 80,000 (or 800,000) of them. Depending on the quality and quantity of your sins...you will be assigned one.
``
If you are the THE SINNER, then you would be assigned to the most fearful of all, Raurav nark. The torture to your soul in this nark exceeds any human description. I am afraid that my any attempt to describe the tortures would slash down the readership of Chowk by half. The good thing is that your assignment to swarg or nark depends upon your Karmas or deeds and not your faith. And then there is Kumbheepak nark. Again I am afraid if I start describing the agonies the poor soul goes through in this nark, the pregnant women will have miscarriages, small kids will become insomniac, and the old men suffering from incurable cancer will refuse to die. And once you have completed the stipulated duration of your stay in narks proportional to your sins, you are required to go through the cycle of rebirths in the lower forms of life as animals and plants before your soul is completely purified and deemed fit to take rebirth as homo sapiens sapiens.

Subroto,

``Religion being more of an incidental factor in my life (being born into one...``

It IS hard to be simple!

Most of the hard-core religionists make out like immediately after coming out of their mother`s tummies they headed straight for the library...where they spent the next 5 years in deep study of the world`s religions...and then (and ONLY then) they `decided` to adopt their present religion!!!
--------------

``...to be dissing on one`s own religion is now the new benchmark for being confident of one`s self.``

I think the sensible man/women should let speculations (like God, religion, etc) rest VERY LIGHTLY on their minds, especially in this modern world.

========================


rsridhar,

``BTW, recently, NASA satellite mapped the Adam`s bridge between India and Srilanka and experts believe that the configuration of the dam points out to it being man-made.``

Just curious.
How do you explain these two items below:

1. Hanuman leapt 500 miles southwards from the southern tip of India to reach Lanka. SriLanka is only 50 miles or so I believe.

2. Ravana`s Lanka was situated ON the equator.

????

To be honest I am a little disappointed by what has happened on this board...to be dissing on one`s own religion is now the new benchmark for being confident of one`s self. But the wise old men on this site have spoken. Religion being more of an incidental factor in my life (being born into one but not really practising any), but having always been considerate of the feelings of others I normally stay away from such discussions.
Egoistic interactors tend to rub me the wrong way and the response to that has always been one of humour (or so I hope). That is the reason the Roachistan movement started and that is why Nawab the dog speaks his mind out to me. Dietry habits of others are just what they are - seen enough hindus eating beef and muslims eating pork - so as to be impressed by the loudmouth louts so proclaim this fact from roof tops. Reminds me of the college days when certain first time drinkers eager to impress state ``mainnay to beer bhi pee hai`` ho hum. Something I noticed with another person I knew - he had a habit of pointing his parents to friends who visited his house stating ``see that ugly woman - thats my mother`` or that ``short baldy is my father``. Same technique is used to deflect criticism and hide insecurities, but unfortunately considered as confidence.
Samina & TAhmed 2 poster who admire - but seems have opposite views on this point . Samina find these posts funny u must but u had obejcts to Urstruely`s language at one pint too - so is Sadna so reviled that its funny here?
The issue here is not of censorship - but speaking our mind out. I respect ur right to diss any religion u want to but at the same time respect my right to call u CRAPOLA too, after all if it smells like shit and talks shit then it must be shanker.

re: #206 by shankar

``Keep it up, ya goddamned heeng-eating dhoti-clads! Soon you`ll FORCE me to convert to Islam.``
Shankarbhai,
relax. Most of us know by now that people like Arjun_m, jay are prejudiced. They, like the rest of us, are only giving an opinion. An opinion is just an opinion unless it is backed by knowledge or hard evidence. In the case of these 2 gentlemen, matters are made worse by the fact that they are so much prejudiced to start with.
We Indians need to realise that our fight is not with Pakistanis but with certain ideologies that are detrimental to both Indians and Pakistanis. Such idelogies like Religious fundamentalism includesHindutva as well as Islamic variety), Army rule (or misrule) in Paksitan etc. People like Jay make the mistake of equating people with idelogies they stand for. We can hate bad policies or bad ideologies but we cannot hate people. British imperialism was bad but were the british themselves evil? I think not.
BTW, what the heck is an Hindian? That expression is new to me.
Sridhar

re:#215 by Pankaj
Pankaj,
You are right on dot about Shasthartha. Religious debates in India in the past were settled thr` discourses. In this regard, the kind of interaction Buddhism and Sanatana Dharma had for a thousand years (700 BC to 700 AD) is instructive. There was never any bloodshed. Both debated their viewpoint openly. Buddhism lost out to SD in the end because of some very great spiritual leaders like Adi Sankara, Madhavacharya. But there never was any violence between the 2 communities. Buddha has been accepted as one of hindu deities and is revered by millions of hindus even today.
Compare this to the interaction of christianity versus Islam right from the days of the crusades. It has always been a saga of bloodshed and violence. That saga continues to this day.
sridhar

re:#221 by akhanusa
My friend,
Only one mosque was destroyed (AFAIK) in India. Look at the trouble BJP has gotten itself into for this single act of lunacy! It is losing everywhere (latest being in J and K) and will most certainly lose the next general election.
So, there is a mechanism to punish politicians in India. It is time tested and it works. It is called democracy. It is smelly, chaotic but, as i said before, it works.
If i were a Pakistani, i would worry more about where my country is heading right now. A fundamentalist party has gained a lot of votes and will get to call shots in Baluchistan and NWFP. Are the minorities safe in Pak today? Mosques in India are safe but are the temples safe in Pakistan? I would be bothered by these questions if i were a patriotic Pakistani.
Sridhar

re:#221 by akhanusa
Chowk is full of people who like to speculate. Most people do not back their statements with hard facts. So, your statement that hindus are not sure if Sriram was a real person or a fictional character cannot be taken seriously. Are you sure if Prophet Md (PBUH) is a real person? You think so because you have been told so, you have heard so and you believe so, right. That is how it is with Sriram. It is all a question of faith. Faith does not demand proof. It is inherent and already exists. Millions of educated and not so educated and downright illiterate Indians believe Ram existed, period.
BTW, recently, NASA satellite mapped the Adam`s bridge between India and Srilanka and experts believe that the configuration of the dam points out to it being man-made. See the following url:
http://www.indolink.com/Religion/r091702-130924.php
If you know a little bit of Ramayana, you will know why this is significant.
Respect the faith of others and your own faith will be respected.
I however agree with those who dispute the fact that SriRam was born on that exact site where the babri masjid stood. That is mere speculation. Many thousand years down the line, who knows? Politicians are just deriving mileage out of that.
Sridhar

re: anarayan # 231

Jesus Christ! Seven swargs!

But with 80,000 narks (we Hindus do have a special thing for ``astronomical`` numbers), I am beginning to worry about my statistical odds.


Thanks anarayan, I had no clue :)

Why take so much stress about poor old piggy? I am sure you can still be a good muslim and not do Hijab or not eat Halal or not send your kids to a madrassah. Lets not get bugged with the details please....

dost-mittar #226
`` how can you say that the feeling is mutual? ``
That comes from my right to preemptive attack :).

Re swarg & naraks I don`t know much except that swargs and naraks are impermanent (as anarayan explains) since they along with the physical manifested universe are part of creation which is going to end when Brahma`s day ends and he sleeps after some number of trillions of years.

A person`s sojourn in heaven and hell is impermanent too. For instance, in the Gita Krishna says those who strive for something with sincere effort will attain it (9: 20-25 ).

He says those who worship phantoms will become phantoms, those who worship devas will attain the realm of devas, those who strive for heaven will attain heaven.

He says when their spiritual merit that earned them their stay in heaven is exhausted by their enjoyment of it, their stay in heaven will end and they will return to the karmic cycle of birth and rebirth.


So the attainment of heaven is hence a different thing from the attainment of Selfrealisation/salvation which ends the karmic cycle for the liberated soul and this state lasts till the current universe ends, if I am not mistaken.

dost-mittar,
``can anyone tell me what is the concept of swarg and nark in hinduism?``

My info maybe somewhat sketchy...but here goes.

There are 7 swargs...the lowest one being that ruled by the king of gods - Indra. If you happen to hit this joint...you spend your days drinking, enjoying music and dance and the occasional tryst with some willing apsara.

-----[inside story]-----
When the ocean of milk was churned, one of the things that came out was wine. The gods partook of this wine, while the demons refused it. Thus the gods are called sura (wine drinkers) and the demons asura.

Also, some 30 million beautiful women came out. But neither the gods nor the demons wanted to accept them. So they became public women (in heaven only, mind it!) called apsaras.
-----------------------

The 7th heaven is that called vai-kuntha. There the allmighty vishnu floats in the ocean of milk. Most of the time he`s sleeping (or meditating). Whenever he wakes up, he creates brahma out of his navel and brahma creates the universe (which he absorbs into himself eventually). This game goes on for ever.
Its important to remember that vishnu creates brahma not for some important reason, but `just for fun` - as a pasttime.

If you hit this place...all you do is gaze upon the lord (vishnu) in wonder.

Personally, which one would you prefer mittarji ??!!!


Narg is somewhat complicated. There at least 80,000 (or 800,000) of them. Depending on the quality and quantity of your sins...you will be assigned one.


on that cheery note,

Shankar#212,

``I know, I know, you dont care what I think...but have some goddamned mercy on some of us...I`m sorry I told you to kiss my butt...what was I thinking?!!! Even if you actually agreed to kiss my butt,... knowing you..you`d probably bite a chunk out of it....serves me right for being so stupid... ``.....

Yaar, you crack so many jokes. you should be named as chowk joker ..)
A suggestion- offer your butt to me, I won`t bite. And you already know that you are going to enjoy what I will do.

Shankar#212,

``I know, I know, you dont care what I think...but have some goddamned mercy on some of us...I`m sorry I told you to kiss my butt...what was I thinking?!!! Even if you actually agreed to kiss my butt,... knowing you..you`d probably bite a chunk out of it....serves me right for being so stupid... ``.....

Yaar, you crack so many jokes. you should be named as chowk joker ..)
A suggestion- offer your butt to me, I won`t bite. And you already know that you are going to enjoy what I will do.

(I just hope that chowk`s guidelines are same for you and me)

Dost-mitter #227,

w.r.t Shankar #222, Dostmitter#190 and Shankar #179

I think you wanted to say ``crass`` rather than ``facetious``. I personally find Sadna`s posts mostly based on some hard facts and logical argument. As far as Shankar`s jokes are concerned, any bus conductor or driver in Haryana Roadways can crack more vulgar and funny jokes.
As shrink is happy to analyze everyone else, let me try to analyze him. He is an older version of YLH (I must concede, YLH appears to have changed), totally enamored with himself and his self image. YLH was hiding himself behind Jiye Jinnah, Jiye Bhutto and all the mumbo jumbo. Shankar hides behind his penis god and vagina goddess jokes. He likes distributing Rakhi`s over Internet. And my experience says that people doing that are hiding a lust behind their rakhis.
When faced with an opposition to his views, he will not oppose opponent`s views. Rather, he will try to wave his degrees, make fun of opponent`s command of english, or his education, and if everything else fails, will enter the realm of crassness and crudeness.
Now let us see his reactions after such a long post.

Hinduism does`nt have a tradition of blashphemy law but they do enjoy destroying Mosques in the name of Ram`s birthplace (while they are not even sure if Ram was a real person or just a fictional charater).

shankar #212
I had nasah`s years in mind when I said `no respect`, actually I mean downright contempt. The more you cowards post remarks about me while evading the subject at hand, the more my contempt for you increases.

For instance, I no longer care what you think about any subject, much less what you think about myself. Kindly spare yourself the trouble of expecting any replies from me.

ajeet #207 On the other point in this post, I agree that religion has been used as a pretext for many evil deeds in the past. And this includes many evil acts (like the destruction of Somnath) by muslim invaders to India. After the recent victory in elections of the islamist parties in the frontier province of Pakistan, I fear for the future of women in that province - will they be forced to wear the veil in the name of shariah (when in fact the Quran calls only for modesty of dress for BOTH women and men, and certainly does not call for covering of the head - let alone the entire body - with a piece of rag)?
My point is simple though: Dont let these rascals (the islamists) get away with the pretext they use for their tradition-bound (at best) or mischievous (at worst) deeds. Dont let them hide behind the cloak of islam. Expose these mullahs for what they are by recognizing how, far from espousing islam as they claim, they practice things that are vehemently condemned in the Quran (like the concept of a chosen people, which is what they believe muslims to be). When people like hamidm ignore this distinction between the Quranic teachings and the anti-Quranic practices of the religious parties and mullahs in Pakistan, they unwittingly play by the rules of the mullahs - i.e. that Islam is what they say it is, not what the Quran says.
As for such views being dangerous in Pakistan - my recently deceased father wrote a whole book on the subject (Quranic and Non-Quranic Islam), published by the same press that publishes the Friday Times in Pakistan, that demonstrated exactly this point. The book (published about 5 years ago) received a number of very positive reviews in the Pakistani press. When I asked my father if he was not afraid for his life (given the violent ways of the mullahs), he simply replied that he was an old man already so he did not care. Also, he explained, he had been very careful to let the Quranic verses speak for themselves vs. the philosophy of mullahs like Maudoodi, and to provide his own interpretation. As such, no mullah dared to challenge the book - since no mullah dares to challenge the Quran. The mullah simply ignores it, so like the Queen of England, the Quran reigns in name, but the mullah rules as far as religion (and now politics in the frontier province) are concerned. Truth must be spoken out, not ignored as hamidm and Solitude and others do, thus unwittingly playing the mullah game.

ajeet #207 Further to my post below (or above, I am not sure how well chowk sequences posts anymore) the last phrase of the sentence ``Also, he explained, he had been very careful to let the Quranic verses speak for themselves vs. the philosophy of mullahs like Maudoodi, and to provide his own interpretation.`` should read ``...and NOT to provide his own interpretation``.

akhanusa,

Your comments reflect your shallow thinking. BC, I wasn`t convincing anyone to eat pork. The point was to define the hipocracy and obsession to go to heaven, that the dogmatic mundane instructions sweeps over your life, and the important ones that ask for enligentenment, social uplift and human development( read:hard work) are put aside in a golden cloak, like the arabic verses we frame in our homes and the quran we place respectfuly on a corner.

And for you, jhp, Id recomend the first instruction of Islam-- Read.

Aisha

I am really impressed with this article and I am really thankful to Aisha Fayyazi for convincing me to not feeling bad about eating ham.
As a favor, I would like to recommend her a famous chinese dish called ``Ox Penis``. This dish will go well with popular Indian drink called ``Gao ka Muttar`` or Cows Pee.
Enjoy

shanker miaN -- long post -- but delightlfully poignant -- now u no y i called u smart alecshanker the great:-)

btw -- one question -- despite all those falling bricks all around u -- how do u keep ur delightful smiley faces everywhere in ur post? -- i mean technically -- not emotionally.

``You show great respect for others` religions and are quite critical of your own. This, I admire. This can only be done by someone who either hates his religion or is supremely secure in it; my guess is that, in your case, it`s the latter.
You compared your criticism with that of solitude, hamidm and sameerjb. This comparison has no validity whatsoever``

Dost-Mittar has rightly diagnosed this shrink`s problem. Gimme a break? This guy neither has the intellectual depth of sameer nor the wit of Hamidm. He is just a self-hating Hindu who doesn`t even know his problem. How can this guy ever psychoanalyze others when his own psychology is so screwed up. All he can do is use the street language of loafers and use sexual abuses. The real reasons behind this screwed up psychology are obvious. He is a casteist to the core and when this guy was denied berth in some college in India because of affirmative action for dalits and he started hating Hinduism to justify his own mediocrity. The rest is for public consumption.

dost-mittarji,

{{Your interacts however are totally based on your impressions which, even if valid, are not backed by any vedic/upanishadic/scholarly/academic evidence}}

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! I have NEVER ever claimed expertise in ANYTHING, except a teeny-weeny amount of expertise in psychiatry (which, btw, has been refered to as ``janitorial psychiatry``, by my admirers). If any of you want to LEARN anything about hinduism, I`m the last hindu you ought to turn to:)

I think I recall saying something to the effect that 99% of hindus know neither s*it nor shinola about hinduism. Well, let me HUMBLY add that I`m smack dab right in the middle of that 99%:)

But... but.. a crude, vulgar boor like me also has a right to have opinions & make observations, dont I? I dont have a problem about sadna or anybody else disagreeing with me. Heck, I dont even have a problem if people insult me in any goddamned way. In fact, if I dislike someone on Chowk, I absolutely LOVE it if he insults me. For eg, take that piece of work- Harimou...if he EVER said a SINGLE nice thing about me, I`d die of shame. Damn, where the HELL is Harimou when you need him? I never would have believed I could even say this: ``I really wish that shithead was participating in this discussion!``:)))

For what its worth, Prem & you are 2 hindus (I`m assuming you are hindu) I DO respect greatly.

Not that that should matter. Here`s some ``expert`` observation. ``Self esteem`` ideally, should come from WITHIN...not WITHOUT. If you dont like yourself, it doesnt matter if the whole world LOOOVES you. You are still going to be very unhappy & dissatisfied. Michael Jackson, Princess Diana, Marilyn Monroe are prime examples of individuals who are/were larger than life...loved by MILLIONS...but they didnt/dont like themselves, & struggle(d) with mental depression. So all that adulation means NOTHING...ZILCH.

OTOH, a guy like Dan Quayle...the whole world laughed & mocked him. But the bugger still went down slugging to the very end!:) The guy even had the balls to consider running for the Republican Primaries; until his advisors told him he doesnt stand a chance against Bush Jr! But...hey..way to go Danio!! Most people in his shoes would have been humiliated into depression...but not Dannyboy. I admire his self esteem:)

Sadna,

So...should we care if you dont respect 99% of us?! At least youre honest enough to understand that the feeling is mutual....and youre fine with it. Way to go, sadnaji!!:) But... but... respect & disrespect aside, Your Direspectfulness, do you reeeaaaly have to come to Chowk with a perpetual puss on your face? I mean...lighten up, memsaab... I know, I know, you dont care what I think...but have some goddamned mercy on some of us...I`m sorry I told you to kiss my butt...what was I thinking?!!! Even if you actually agreed to kiss my butt,... knowing you..you`d probably bite a chunk out of it....serves me right for being so stupid...

Tahmed,
I`m right here!!! Here I am!!!!

````Regarding peoples reaction to Shanker`s post, it seems you people are presuming that it was because of his anti Hindu tirade, and there may be some of that, however most and I know my criticism was for his boorish and crude comments. He has this thing with putting things in body holes and if you check, all his post are adorned with this. While it seems disgusting behavior is the in thing now, this is a public forum and a minimum decorum should be maintained``(ajeet)

ajeet miaN -- relax -- it`s just a spicier writing style -- like hamidm`s nastik posts --

don`t u get tired sometimes -- of all that bombastic blather on Chowk --

by the way where is prof hobbes sahib these days -- stuffing the votes for the MMA?:-)

My two cents:

As we all know Hinduism doesn`t have a tradition of blashphemy law. The theological differences between Hindus were settled by ``shastrartha`` or polite debates and dissidence was allowed. If Shankar jee thinks ``something`` is crapola, it is his privilege. Similarly if many of us, Sadhana jee including, disagree with him and voice opinion to the contrary it is our privilege. If the need arises, we can participate in a theological discussion if Mr. Shankar so decides. But I will support his(and others) right to say whatever they feel right till it is not ad-hominem. The bottomline is- allow people to express their opinion without fear and let the people decide what is right for them in this marketplace of ideas.

ajeet #207 Subject: Shankar.
Agreed that your objections are to his use of language. Personally, I found those references to be funny and inoffensive. But I agree on a public forum we should try to avoid language that would offend some posters.
Speaking for myself, what I find offensive and low-class is when people engage in cross-communal or cross-national insults and hatreds (of the kind jay, harimau, arjun and sometimes sadna and a few others have been posting about Pakistanis and/or muslims on chowk), even though these posts are without references to body cavities. On the other hand, I consider the substance of Shankars posts to be mature and open-minded (and he does at times target muslims and our stupid customs as much as he does for hindus), even though his posts are irreverent and with references to private body parts and so forth.
But: I agree that on a public forum like chowk one should try not to use language that is offensive out of consideration for some chowk posters. So: I have drafted the following petition for Shankar:
Shankarji: Would you consider declaring the remainder of October to be a ``Private Body Part-Free Month`` (kind of like a ``Cigar-Free Day`` as Clinton would have suggested) in deference to the public nature of this forum?

nasah sahib #209
I have not said anywhere that Hinduism is 100% reformed nor have I said I speak for 99% Hindus.

Apart from criticising me personally and ascribing to me what I have not said like you are regrettably doing, noone here has said a single meaningful thing to back up their derogatory statements about Hindu pooja, nor acknowledged what I posted on the issue.

This is precisely why I have lost respect for 100% chowk posters. May the vagina goddess and penis god(and butts of various brahmins) bless your endeavors.

ajeet,
#207
Sigh...I guess you are a relative newcomer & are turned off by my abusive, vulgar, mocking language.. Perhaps you think this has a bearing on how I have been raised, the value system my parents taught me, or what self respect I have of myself, despite my supposed credentials of being a shrink...etc etc...

..not that I have a problem with your opinion of me, mind you...

I`ve had this argument with several people. Even people who are my friends like Tahmed , scout, dostmittar have admonished me, for my language, in the past. Yaar, even they have given up trying to change me & have accepted me for the bum that I am:))) If they can resignedly ``get over it``, I suggest you do too. If you dont want to, thats fine too, but then it will be your problem, not mine..

Sir, I`m sure you have been to a Chowk in India. Whether it is a public meeting place in the ``real`` world or in cyberspace; you will meet all kinds of characters. Besides that, in a public place in India you will also have to deal with smelly beggars, mangy dogs & the frikking ubiquitous cow with her ribs sticking out. Not to mention we constantly walk in a public place in India, looking at the ground, lest we accidentally step in some human/dog/cow sh*t. We all take that in our stride, cos thats LIFE!! Otherwise dont step outside your house.

In an anonymous PUBLIC cyberspace like Chowk,(whose motto is EVERYONE is invited to meet, think & talk) you are bound to meet disagreeable characters like me...where I can be who I am & not who I think I OUGHT to be..If I use my language creatively to get past Chowk censors...too bad for you...tolerate me like you tolerate an incurable skin rash. Hey, you can always use the scroll button, you know, & pretend I dont exist.

Look at it this way...I tolerate a lot of characters here who are VERY polite, VERY cultured & VERY respectful. But as a psychiatrist I`m trained to read in between the lines & I have a fair idea what they are really thinking & saying. It offends me more that they try to say it very ``politely``. WHAT a person says is MORE important to me, than HOW he says it. Believe me, some of the very sharif characters I`ve come across here, I would be ``tempted`` to kill in the ``real`` world...So I ``sublimate`` my anger & try to kill Bambi instead.....

Wish me luck...

re#204

“You did not answer, why is the privilege of disagreeing and lecturing only shankar`s? If he speaks for 99% Hindus, why is it a problem if I disagree and speak for myself?”(sadna)

my dear shrimati Sadna ji – the answer to your question is right there in your 64 dollar question.

if we can only rephrase your question – why is the privilege of disagreeing and lecturing only shrimati Sadna’s?

If she speaks for 99% Hindus, why is it a problem if Shanker disagrees and speaks for himself?

Even though disdain and iconoclasm are NOT mutually exclusive – yet its perception like the beauty -- is in the eyes of the beholder.

I am GLAD to hear from a knowledgeable sophisticated Hindu like u --- instead of boorish ignorant Shanker -- that Hindusim is fully reformed now – as if it needed any – lucky folks!!.

my only wish – if – one day -- I could say the same about Islam.

Please please -- don’t lose respect for 99.9% of the Chowkis just because of those damn -- 0.1% of the self-hating Hindus and self-detesting Muslims.

Now where did u get the impression that we are NOT – ‘keeping out of each others way’ -- on CHOWK?

Chowk is the unique place in cyberspace -- where everybody minds his or her own business:-)

Nasah, Tahmed and others,

Regarding peoples reaction to Shanker`s post, it seems you people are presuming that it was because of his anti Hindu tirade, and there may be some of that, however most and I know my criticism was for his boorish and crude comments. He has this thing with putting things in body holes and if you check, all his post are adorned with this. While it seems disgusting behavior is the in thing now, this is a public forum and a minimum decorum should be maintained. Also, if somebody abuses you, may be you have some excuse to abuse back, however Sadna who is the latest target of his abuse has maintained her dignity and to her credit has not returned in kind.

I only advised him to use his psychiatric knowledge to figure out why this professional has this compulsion to substitute abusive and bullying behavior instead of logical and sane argument.

Tamed,

I agree with you that essential message of all religion is basically the same and the differences are mostly in rituals, which are really cosmetics. However, if you look and the history of the subcontinent, more than any other religion the followers of Islam have used their faith to destroy other cultures and people. This is not to say there are no exception. The mughal king Jallal-ud-din Mohammed Akber (I hope I have the name right), views were not too far from yours. Then there were a lot of Sufi saints who are today venerated by Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims alike.

You will argue that all those atrocities are not sanctioned by the tenants of Islam, but I whose ancestor were subjected to this inhumanity will keep an eye open, for the next Mullah Omar or Bin laden who may want to chop my head of for being a kafir. Also I advise you, that you do the same, because you may also qualify as a kafir, in the minds of the pure.

ZafarA #205 Thanks for the answer. However, I dont know the question to which this is the answer. Would you please be good enough to provide the question as well?
Also, I trust you are my old chowk friend Zafar Al Talib, who had to chop his nick in order to live again in the chowk format. Like what I had to do, and I think also poor miss Saminsha who had to drop the ``h``. Right?

nasah,

Thankyou very very much for #203. I am deeply honored that you approve...``````despite the fact you are muslim``````...

{{its time we confess the bs on our own side, rather than get cheap thrills about the bs of the other side.”(shanker)}}

Thats how this WHOLE argument started & its NOT finished...not by a long shot, as far as I`m concerned. For the first time in my experience of 3 yrs on Chowk (& that makes me, relatively, a vetran on Chowk), I saw an article written by a habitual India baiter, (AFS), write a honest, frank, blunt criticism of her own identity...rather than blame all her problems on the attitude of ``others``...(ESP hindu Indians)....Also, I`m grateful she has stayed away from this argument, cos the chip on her shoulder rivals sadna`s:)

You know, 3 yrs ago, I must confess, I was a bigger bigot than Jay...about Pakistanis & muslims.

I was raised by parents & paternal grandparents who were very traditional brahmins & very patriotic Indians. My grandfather, a brilliant man, threw away a very promising educational & career opportunity to follow Gandhi`s Quit India movement . In the process, his wife & 5 children (which included my father) were financially destitute & lived a hand-to-mouth existence...esp cos my grandpa spent most of his productive years being jailed, repeatedly, by the British. He shared many a jail cell with muslims & many became very good friends of his...(at that time Jinnah wasnt asking for a Pakistan).

However, in the tail end of the freedom struggle, the question of India being partitioned was becoming a bigger issue than getting the goras out of India. I think that was what broke him. Thats when he started getting prejudiced about muslims.... ESP muslims who wanted Pakistan. He felt Mother India was like a child that he & many many people sacrificed their personal lives for; to get ``custody`` of. To him it was a joint custody between hindus & muslims & he could not forgive muslims for wanting to cut the baby. I remember him saying that those ``pigs`` would rather dismember the baby & keep parts of it for themselves, than trust hindus. ``So if they hate us THAT much; THEY are the ones who are prejudiced...NOT us.``

I realise, now, that in his eagerness to paint muslims as prejduiced, he became MORE prejudiced than the people he was accusing:)) Another thing about prejudice...it spreads like cancer....then ALL muslims, even the ones who decided to stick it out in India became targets of that malignancy. Naturally, his influence filtered down the generations. He went to his grave,..i mean cremation... believing he (& most hindus) are much less prejudiced than muslims. As far as Pakistan was concerned; he believed that that country was created out of HATRED for hindus & would have been very happy if that whole country was incinerated from the face of the earth. I have never seen someone more joyous than when the two wings of Pakistan were divided, in 71. Now, lets be honest with ourselves, fellow Hindians...dont we all have that cancer within ourselves, to various degrees?!

I still remember his statement....``Whats the true definition of muslims?!!!...they LIVE to fight...they fight with hindus, they fight with christians, they fight with sikhs, they fight with Jews.....& when there is nobody left to fight with ...they fight amongst themselves!!!``

You know what the sad part of prejudice is? there`s always a nidus of truth in it. For eg..when one says ``blacks are lazy sobs``...yeah... many of them are. But so are many whites...& hindus & chinese....&...you get my point!

You know, my dad told me the only ``pill`` for prejudice is ``knowledge``... If human beings are ignorant about a culture, religion, or country...we fill our gaps in our knowlegde with statements that are inherently WRONG. So, if you want to stop hating somebody, start learning as much as you can about them....there is a lot you will like about them & you will realise that ``my kind of people`` are not too different from them.

So thats the backdrop from where I entered Chowk, 3 yrs ago. After all, when the 2 countries have nuclear bombs, continuing to hate each other is SUICIDE. So, I wanted to see for myself, what kind of ogres Pakistanis were. My conception of a ``typical`` Pakistani was URSTRULY. I can handle Urstruly, atleast he`s brutally honest...I like that part of him. There is something about that hobbes/hobbyty character that rubs me the wrong way...dunno why...I cant even understand 99% of what he says...but I get the feeling he`s telling us hindus that Islam is superior to our faith & every other faith...but he says it in a round about, pseudo-philosophical, gol-mal way...he`s VERY polite...he`s anything BUT crude, rude, profane & obnoxious...so is that other Islam ka mashoor pehelwan; Naqsbandhi.

However, the thing that has dissappointed me & made me ashamed the MOST, is that many many hindus on Chowk....are more like the (gasp) ``evil muslims``.....or my conception of what a muslim was!! My observation on Chowk is that most muslims, including Pakistani muslims, are open minded, respectful, intelligent & decent humanbeings. Whoah! What a revelation!! They DONT hate hindus or India, as much as I thought they did!. They/we have some ``unresolved`` issues that are more ``political`` than religious.

Besides, they tend to be a heck of a lot more honest & introspective about the shortcomings of their country/religion or culture than we Indians ESP Hindians are. At the most, we Hindians acknowledge that we are not paragons of virtue, but then, almost invariably, we try & justify it or proclaim Pakistan or Islam is worse!

OK, maybe I`m being ``reverse prejudiced`` :) or making broad, unfair sweeping generalisations of Chowk Hindians. Its just my observation...so kiss my brahminic butt. It gets me mad when guys like Jay & arjun_m repeatedly say the same tiresome things, like broken records...implyng India is a frikking paradise compared to Pakistan. Just who the F are they trying to kid?!

Its time we Hndians on Chowk started criticising the bs in our own country & own religion....the first thing to do is have a thicker skin...if you wear your religion & patriotism on your sleeve, dont cry if I think its CRAPOLA...its a sign of supreme insecurity...HELLO!!! wake up & smell the chai, ya thumb-in-the-butt-heads ...there IS bs in India & hinduism, you know...the rest of the world can SMELL it even without even using their noses!

It is a revelation to me how frikking sensitive some Hindians are. Ok, I`m rude, crude, obnoxious & profane....jeeeze tell me something I DONT know! I`m not making any excuses or apologies about how I talk...thats ME, warts an` all!

But the thing I find HILARIOUS is that I`m ``accused`` of being a ``Paki-hugger``,`` Paki-brown-noser``, ``closet Islamist``...hahaha...the IRONY never ends!:)))) And all this time I thought muslims were super-sensitive!!! Thanks to you chuts ..yet another one of my prejudices about muslims bites the dust!!!

Keep it up, ya goddamned heeng-eating dhoti-clads! Soon you`ll FORCE me to convert to Islam. Oh yeah..you`d like that would`nt you?! But tooo bad..if I had the CHOICE of converting to another religion...I WANNA BE A PARSI!! But those mofo bawas have ``closed membership``..darn it! You cant even convert if you married a bawa! Sigh...just my naseeb...I always always want what I CANT have!!

Ok, so I humbly admit it, to everyone an` all. I`m STILL prejudiced. But thanks to Chowk, its getting lesser. Sad part is, everything I thought I hate about muslims, I`m finding it, in rich abundance, in you dhoti clad bretheren of mine...

Gimme some more time to improve...jeeze its only been 3 yrs...

In the meantime, bowhunting season has started & I`m going to the woods this weekend with some friends to try & ``protect`` Michigan from Bambi & her murderous kin. Yeah, I`m an ogre...I looooove venison..hey thats ALLOWED in hinduism...er, I think... Aw, what the heck, the guys are bringing a couple of cases of beer, & we can burp & fart to our heart`s content in the beautiful woods (leaves are changing color)...without our wives telling us that its rude, crude, profane & obnoxious....

Later dudes...

nasah sahib
You didnot answer, why is the privilege of disagreeing and lecturing only shankar`s? If he speaks for 99% Hindus, why is it a problem if I disagree and speak for myself?

Disdain is not iconoclasm, whether towards Hinduism or Islam.

I grew up in a 30% Muslim state hearing muezzin calls from childhood, having Muslim friends and seeing classmates irrespective of religion compete in competitions like `Muslim wedding song`. Its not an alien religion to me, its part of my background as a culture though I mightnot know its finer points. For ths reason, long ago I used to post responses to both hamidm and sameer disagreeing with their posts against Islam, I even told sameer on one occasion (I am sure he doesnot remember either) if he marries a good Muslim wife, he will automatically understand what his religion is about. I donot do that anymore, as a Hindu I am an outsider in Islam, that was made clear on many occasions. I have also criticised elements of Hinduism and Hindutva and the caste system many times and at length on chowk. I am sorry you missed all these posts.

Hinduism has had many reformers, who knew the religion inside out which is why they were able to reform it. Simply saying crapola doesnot suffice.

Of course, this is only lecturing for you, while crapola hits the right spot.

I can assert percentage figures too, and on my own behalf. I have no respect for 99.99% of chowk posters and I am sure the feeling is mutual. Let us hope to keep out of each others way in future.

Tahmed - it was Joan Armatrading. Salaams.

“its time we confess the bs on our own side, rather than get cheap thrills about the bs of the other side.”(shanker)

U r right shanker maharaj –

very easy to warm your heart – and put a glow on your face -- oh how GOOD ‘us’ – how BAD ‘them’ – this good and bad battle -- this us and them business --- so easy to please -- your OWN KIND – so easy to displease -- NOT your OWN KIND –

BUTT -- takes LOTs n LOTS of guts to displease your own – takes NO guts to displease NOT your own

and next to impossible -- to call your own spade – A SPADE – unless u have an umbrella nearby – to avoid the brickbats.

And believe me -- I KNOW – and my father KNEW it too – not easy to be an ICONOCLAST –

merey junooN ne mujh ko kaheeN bhee nu dee panah/ maatoobe buut hooN kushtaye purvardigaar hooN –

I still wonder what prompted me to write that couplet – after all

Shanker miaN – u write: “Jeeze, all this time I thought only muslims were super-sensitive about their religion!!”

I thought so too, my friend – till I read the very measured and very respectable reactions – and got lectured --

hasan

pmishra #193 By the term ``faith community`` I assume you mean people of the same faith (hindus being one faith community, muslims being another and so forth). As for my views on this, while I am flattered you asked, they are I think tbey logically follow from my earlier posts: since all religions are in essence saying the same simple but profound things, there can only be one faith community comprising these people. That is, all well-meaning, rationally inclined, people (i.e. ordinary people, as opposed to fanatics of any religion) are part of the same faith community.

Incidentally, once again, I find this reflects what is written (but totally ignored by the most ardent ``muslims``) in the Quran: it often addresses all mankind (not just muslims), and makes it clear that there is nothing special about being a muslim. This is 180 degrees different that what the muslim chauvinists (of the kind who just won elections in the frontier province of Pakistan) fervently believe to be the case.

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anarayan #196 Much obliged. I shall now test if I got it right.

AAmir,

``Where is this information you posted??``

On your browser top menu, click the `view` and choose `source`.
This shows you the html text that is behind the colorful display in front.

By searching that text you can see how all the razzmatazz is done.

-----------------

LadyAna,

ur welcome!

#195 anarayan

ur post was the only one on this whole site that I could clearly understand. that was refreshing, to say the least. :)

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tahmed,

Looks like the texts were blown away.
Hope this works.

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Here`s a way for smileys and Sadies.

Choose the image you want (below).
Cut the text above the image and paste into your post.
Replace the initial `*` with a `<`
Replace the final `*` with a `>`
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*img src=``/images/smilies/smily_1.gif``*



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cheers,

tahmed,

``I would draw an unhappy face here, if I only knew how``

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cheers,

test

tahmed

I meant post #104, not 101.

BTW, do you understand what the terms like ``people of faith`` or
``faith community`` mean? If so, what do they mean to you?

roohi #181 Religion has indeed been used by parents to help keep the kids in line. This is perhaps one of the slightly more defensible uses of religion. Religion is also used as a means of emotional comfort in the stark realities of life, including the reality of our own mortality. Less defensible are the use of religion to make an easy living (as in case of the mullahs). Totally indefensible of course are use of religion by ambitious generals and ambitious mullahs to undertake the assault on the Pakistani constitution, the Pakistani judicial system and on the Pakistani society at large.
But these are mere uses and abuses of religion. What I was referring to was the concept of religion itself, the core message of all religions. The fact that the core message comes as a surprise to many people who are used to thinking of religion in terms of its uses and abuses indicates just how big a mess we have made out of religion. While some people take the easy way out and simply condemn all religions, I think it is important not to throw the baby (the core message) out with the bathwater surrounding it.

pmishra2 #188 I looked up your posts #101 and #151 per the suggestion you provided in response to my question.
I am sorry to report back that #101 is not your post. And #151 simply dumps a bit more on poor Shankar and leaves my question unanswered. (I would draw an unhappy face here, if I only knew how).

PS to vagina goddess and penis god.

The regular derogatory references to these is what I mean by being unable to cope with a nonJudeoChristian outlook on life.

If I am not mistaken, fornication is the original sin in Christianity at least. Terms like f_k, d_k and chut are considered profane because the whole issue is considered in JudeoChristian parlance to be associated with sin. These days its considered a radical act of free speech to flout these terms words in normal conversation, a couple of young men got an Oscar for writing a movie which had f_k in every sentence of dialogue. Arguments are made on this board that these words should not be frowned upon, only stuffed shirts can object to profane language.

Well, there are people in this world such as some Hindus who consider these things not profane but sacred and worship these elements of procreation as embodiments of the life force. And lo and behold that is called regressive!

Another example is when women in AP bare their breasts when they get carried away in a ritual to Yellama, a ritual they consider sacred, cchi cchi, what backward practices. But when young women moon? during Mardi Gras in N. Orleans in an act they consider daringly profane, it is projected as a trendy fun thing.

Its truly an upside down world.

tahmed

Do me the courtesy of reading my posts #101 and $151. These
are generalized calls for being respectful with ``faith communities``
whether hindu, christian, muslim or otherwise. Indeed, i do not
believe the word hindu appears in any one of them.

mishra2#183 You have called Shankar crude, rude etc., but have overlooked a question he asked:
``Pray, how many of you objected when Solitude, Sameer or even hamid dissed the crapola in Islam?!!``
A polite, dignified reply (whereby Shankar and his chamchas like myself can learn by example) to this uncouth question would be appreciated.

#184, 183 sadna, pmishra:

Ditto.

I have no problem with Shankar taking potshots at Hindu Gods/Goddesses and various rituals; What I have problem with him is the lack of consistency. Consistency can add to credibility. If he is taking potshots at Hindu rituals,then why he is silent on Mohammad`s relationship with Aiesha who was 6 when he married her and 9 when he consummated the marriage. Even if she was 13 that would constitute a sex-crime now.

Lack of criticism of Islamic rituals then makes me suspect that he is a closet Islamist.

Shankarji,

Well since you are trying to get in good with us Pakistanis and South Asians and all, could at least try to bribe us a bit? I could use a car...oh yeah, what happens after you become the ``It Boy`` at Chowk?

No benefits or insurance plan, I`m afraid...

shankar #175

Your rudeness, crudeness and ignorance is clearly without bound.

You have now offered some kind of illiterate rendition of some
key hindu concepts. Clearly you choose to believe that notions
like karma, reincarnation etc. should be interepreted in most offensive
and bizarre ways, justifying anything you feel like (usually very negative
aspects of indian society!).

Who gives you the right to do this? Can you quote a single hindu commentary/text/source considered authoritative BY HINDUS that justifies your
bizarre beliefs? Or do you feel that you pickup whatever terms you feel like and trash them?

roohi #178
Part of the kosher terminology of Jews is about taking care not to mix the meat of the calf with the milk of the cow, because a calf drinks that milk too. I think they (the jews) get it from the Bible.

shankar #various
Its not your bluntness which is rude, its your assumption that only you can be right and those who disagree have something up their alimentary tract. Unlike you, I donot say your views are invalid, I only say I disagree.

No brahmin has ever asked me to kiss his/her butt, you are the first. A private pooja has nothing to do with brahmins, the caste system or its propagation. But I think its established that you donot really want to know. And while I donot know who you mean by vagina goddess, (do you mean Parvati) don`t knock penises and vaginas, if it weren`t for them, you wouldnot be around. Neither would the beef, pork and chicken that you enjoy, these delicacies would have run out a long time ago.

Dost, tahmed32 ... about the common basis of religions ... aren`t they all about the inescapable consequences of evil human actions - one can dodge the laws of man but there is no hiding from the creator and no escape from the Laws of Karma or Judgement Day etc. - doesn`t religion in all forms and cultures form the bedrock of the human notions of morality, justice and ethics ?

I could be wrong but I think most people keep the ``takiya`` of religion to teach their kids right from wrong as they see it in the manner they themselves were taught - really, it is very hard to define ``good`` or human values without reference to some religion ... of course people twist and interpret religion to suit themselves too or sanction their evil actions or try to earn ``punya``, accept Jesus etc. to wash off their paap in other ways.

Shankar, Satyavadi ... about the cow ... c`mon, it`s about the milk ofcourse! What other mammal in nature drinks the milk of another without forming a bond ? It`s not like Hindus/Sikhs etc think the cow is a goddess or anything, it`s just unnatural to eat a creature after drinking it`s milk according to them (Eating baby cows (veal) and taking the mommy`s milk meant for it to make icecream is OK and Koreans are bad for eating dogs !) - Don`t know why it`s only Hindus that thought that one up honestly - it`s a no brainer. and in Indian culture the cow/bull have the place of the horse (and more) anyway - since they pulled the carts and ploughed the fields etc. I know what PETA says about the leather industry in India is true but don`t even get me started on midwestern ``feed lots`` folks!

Shankar - Sorry to say, but you DO deserve a cyber scolding for if nothing else your unending references to the great one you are named after - please read some of your kids Amar Chitra Kathas for more info on the catcher of the Ganga, the wearer of the moon, the drinker of the vicious Vish, the cosmic dancer of the Tandav, the maha yogi, the bearer of the third eye, the unending pillar of light - Shiva-Shankar, Natraaj, Pashupati, Bhoot nath, Bam Lehri, Neel Kanth or whatever you call him deserves a little more understanding from his bhakts ! Though he`s more likely than anyone to put up with a little desrespect from a Chota Shankar. Jai Bholenath and Om-Nmah-Shivaay to you !

ajeet,

{{Cool it shrinkman. Sit in front of the mirror and diagnose what you problem is. It seems to me you have a compulsive disorder, that makes you boorish and obnoxious. Also a fetish, which boosts your ego, whenever your behavior is disgusting.


This is a lay person view. I am sure you as a professional will come up with a better diagnosis}}

ROTFL!!
You want me to make a diagnosis of my personality?!
Hmmmm...how does ``FUBAR`` sound to you?
If you understand that acronym, I`m sure it`ll boost YOUR ego...

Jeeze..you enlightened guys...I tell you...you`ll be the death of me!
Poor guy like me tries to do you guys a favor by trying to yank your thumbs out of your buttholes...

You reeeaaaly wanna know whats TRUELY disgusting?!
Put your thumb on your nose & take a deeeep whiff

To all you thumb-up-your-butts hindus,

Yes I`m crude, rude, obnoxious & profane...ESP to you super-sensitive delicate darlings. Jeeze, all this time I thought only muslims were super-sensitive about their religion!!

Serves me right for being prejudiced!

Pray, how many of you objected when Solitude, Sameer or even hamid dissed the crapola in Islam?!! hahn..hahn?!!! Now when you get the taste of the same medicine, your buttholes start burning...dont it?!

Yeah yeah, no goddamned pujari will issue a `fatwa` against me or I wont get executed for ``blasphemy``. And that makes us hindus ``better``...dont it?! However, it seems to me that ,in this day & age, if I insult hinduism in that ``land of vegeterianism`` Gujrat, I`d probably get BBQed & my wife would be gang raped by banias who are soooo respectful of ANY life that they wont eat meat (even frikking BACTERIA meat!!!). Yes & all those Gujjus will go scot free because they DIDNT eat the human flesh they BBQed...After all, we have a beautiful justification....THEY started it!...THEY should have known better!!....THEY are the real terrorists!!!

Ponder THAT when you take a sip of the divine go-moothra...

And you think I come to Chowk because I want to be ``popular`` with the ``other side``?! Ofcourse!...I`m planning to run for election in frikking Pakistan...didnt you know that?! Oh noooo...maybe I`m trying to impress some muslim chicks here, to add to my harem....What is Chowk, a goddamned popularity contest?!

Just like all of you, I`m a faceless voice in cyberspace who thinks its time we confess the bs on our own side, rather than get cheap thrills about the bs of the other side.

Hey! dont get me wrong, I loooove an honest-to-goodness India-Pakistan mudsling fest...I`m on the right side, ofcourse:)

OK...time for me to do some heavy duty pooja of the penis god...

dost-mittar #140
Can you give me a reference where Gandhi said he supports the caste system? I read where he disapproved of the caste system, supported the varnas and explained why(though he later said he had changed his mind about varnas too).

Have you read Nirad Choudhari`s `Continent of Circe`? It was written in the early 60s and is a amazing mixture of amazingly astute insights(which have proved uncannily true in the interim, for instance the flavor of latest US-Pakistan alliance with Pakistan at receiving end, he understood back then) and amazingly obtuse insights both.

He quotes Mounstatuart Elphiston(whom he calls `one of the greatest adminstrators the East India Company had`) about caste

``The caste system has by no means so great an effect in obstructing the enterprises of individuals as European writers are apt to suppose. There is, indeed, scarcely any part of the world where changes of condition are so sudden and striking as in India. The last Peshwa had, at different times, two prime ministers; one of them had been either an officiating priest or a singer in a temple(both degrading employments), and the other was a Sudra and originally a running footman. The Raja of Jeypore`s prime minister was a barber. The founder of the reigning family of Holcar was a goatherd, that of Sindia a menial servant; both were Sudras. The great family of Rastia in Maratta country first followed the natural occupation of Brahmins, then became great bankers, and at length, military commanders. Many similar instances of elevation might be quoted. The changes of professions in private life are no less observable``.

Nirad Choudhari then says
``I could add to the list. It was always so in the whole history of the caste system. That it suppresses talent is a figment of the shallow egalitarian imagination.

The social immobility for which the caste system was made a scapegoat was really a product of the stagnation which was created in the social life of the Hindus by the Pax Britannica and the suppression of talent laid at its door was almost wholly due to British rule... ``

He quotes English military historian Kaye`` in connexion with the military profession : `It was the inevitable tendency of our increasing power in India to oust the native functionary from his seat, or lift him out of his saddle so that the White man might fix him there```.

NC says `` This happened in most fields, and above all, in public life, and the caste system was ready at hand to bear the blame. If the system suppressed anything it was only ambition unrelated to ability.```..

(Then he goes on to complain about the `worthless adventurers` at large in modern India :) ).

Just a one view of caste history, fyi. Lets not forget `Untouchables` were outside the caste system and so the above conclusions about mobility donot apply to them.

sadna,

{{You tried to give me dating advice and I didnot say anything. Now you are being rude because I willnot accept your verdict on my private religious practice. Is that fair?}}

FAIR!!! Who said anything about being fair?!
Here`s a newsflash, Your Highness
LIFE AINT FAIR!!!:))

Loookie ma!...I was born brahmin!!...
& if there is any mofo achoot sucker reading this post..boohoo to you...

well, actually there is a ``fairness`` to that logic...

listen up!!... all you achoot untouchables......in one of your past lives you were all brahmins...BUT, you comitted a ``paap``...like ate the flesh of a cow or stepped on a cockroach god......., its a FACT..look it up!! Shutup..be a REAL hindu & accept your naseeb like a man..(uh, wrong choice of word)...

As for you muslims....I can understand if you convert when there is a sword at your neck....but convert because Islam is a great religion?! huhn...do you reeeaaaly expect us brahmins to buy into that crap?! The biggest suckers are the brahmins who converted to Islam voluntarily. Who the heck is going to carry your bucket of nightsoil, NOW mianji...pray tell me?!..ENOUGH SAID about ``you people``..!

I regret....I take that back...I DONT regret... that you think my ``bluntness`` is ``rude``....I dont CARE what your ``private religious practice is``! Please feel welcome to do a pooja to the vagina godess..for crying out loud! hey whatever floats your boat, memsaab...

As far as I`m concerned....feel free to judge me however you want..&, while youre at it....( if its not too much bother).... could you kindly & RESPECTFULLY kiss my pure brahminic butt, huh?!..er..metaphorically, ofcourse (wink)

anarayan #168 and ZafarA #169 When I said that the core message of all religions comes down to something like ``good heart and a logical, inquisitive mind - and some basic character``, this does not imply that living your life this way will also get you respect (per Zafar`s post), nor does this imply that people tend to be naturally good-hearted or bad-hearted. You simply ASSUMED this, and that is not logical. So, brothers, I think you need to start working out on the ``logical`` part of the core message (since I am sure you are really good-hearted people already).

PS: And, of course, far be it from me to claim to be living my life in accordance with this core message. E.g., on the ``good hearted`` part, I in fact get a vicious pleasure out of reading Shankar`s jabs at certain stuffed shirts on chowk, and I dont mind rubbing it in myself when opportunity presents on chowk.

subroto,

{{Said it all the same didn`t ya?}}

DUHH!!!...or should I say ``no s*it Sherlock!`` or ``you figured it out all by yourself, huhn?! (laugh)

{{I could say a lot more on this subject but I wont.}}

Needless to say it absolutely would NOT bother me if you say something that you dont want to say, but THINK it in your mind. So just because you dont say it doesnt make you a ``sharif aadmi``, or ``enlightened`` or ``cultured`` or ``coming from a GOOD family`` in my book....hey, but dont worry, I`m not planning to sit in front of the pearly gates instead of St.Peter in judgement of your thoughts & behavior (ooops, wrong religion)...

``reminds me that probably much more serious than eating or not eating pigs is the Islamic instructions about using hands to wash butts after taking a crap... ``


Under Stukaism, u are enjoined to use an old toothbrush where the bristles have been softened by regular usage. The devotee of Stukaism experiences heavenly sensations while taking care of anal hygiene.

:)

#Veeresh
The religon you descirbe largely exists in discussion boards like these. Mostly Fiction. In practice it cannot tolerate what other thoughts. If it did what was the need to destroy the BABRI masjid?? If it was ok to worship whatever way one can then why were more than 1000 muslims killed in Gujrat? And even today not a single one of the preprators are likely to reicve any punishment. The people in charge for it are praised and keep on disparging muslims. So much for the freedom to worship what you want!!

Crap should be called crap and crapola should be called crapola. To do otherwise is not only stupid, it is positively harmful.

Far better to criticize Hinduism and fix its problems, than to shower it with ``respect`` and ignore its maladies.

As a proud Hindu (and I suspect Shankar is one too), I completely support Shankar`s right to tear my religion to shreds.

He does it with no malice. And criticism -even strong criticism- without malice is the greatest favor anybody can do any person, any system, or any nation.

Francois Gautier says . . .````What about Indian Muslims? Today we see, even though they benefit in India from a freedom they would not have in Saudi Arabia, or even in Pakistan, Indian Muslims often feel their first allegiance goes to Islam and not to India. The irony of it all is that Muslims invaded India, ran it with an iron hand, attempted to make India a totally Islamic country by forcibly converting millions of Hindus -- and today they manage to portray themselves in the eyes of the world as the persecuted.

Another strong objection from some readers: religion divides. First let me say Hinduism, as Sri Aurobindo or Vivekananda, or Sri Ramakrishna envisioned it, is not a religion but a living spirituality which has given to the world -- and still gives it today -- wonderful tools: hata-yoga copied all over this planet, meditation, or pranayama. Secondly, at a time when the two largest monotheistic religions of the world, Islam and Christianity still claim their God is the only true one, while Hindus, through the extraordinary concept of the avatar, recognise that God manifests himself at different times, in different countries, under different names and thus grant to everybody the right to worship God under any form. This is a very precious spiritual (and not religious) knowledge which has been lost to the world and which, even the most humble Hindu peasant spontaneously practices.

It is also true that things in India are not as they should be. Hindus there are not united, India is divided along caste and religious lines by unscrupulous politicians. Yes, Hindus can also be racists, as one rediff reader remarked; they do suffer at the same time, as another one commented, from a big inferiority complex, as well as one of superiority, quite an achievement! Yes, it is as well correct that expatriate Indians do often tend to become more conscious of their roots than India Indians: they will send their children to learn Bharata Natyam and will remember all the festivals. Good, there is a whole generation of upper middle class kids in India who are so desperately aping the worst of the West, that they are lost for India.

Yes, Hindus can be selfish, passive, cowardly, miserly, whereas many of them are extremely rich. ````

shankar #159
You tried to give me dating advice and I didnot say anything. Now you are being rude because I willnot accept your verdict on my private religious practice. Is that fair?

Why disagreeing with some oracles on chowk is pronounced the sign of biological or psychological or social abnormalities is something I never understand, but luckily Hindu pooja has been going on for centuries or millenia before I was even born so the two issues are separate.

IMO, the rite of pooja has a lot to do with the Hindu religious feeling of seeking personal connection with God, the nature and the earth, not necessarily in that order. You ought to take a look at that book by Stephen Huyler sometime.

Tahmed, Anarayan

Kind words and a real good heart...don`t get you no respeeeeeect...

(name the artist. name the album for extra credit).

Peace, gentlemen.

tahmed32,

I`m in an argumentative mood!

Reg your #166:
``...live one`s life in accordance with the core message of all religions (which I put as ``good heart and a logical, inquisitive mind``...``



If you have a logical,inquisitive mind...how can you (tahmed) declare (with a finality) that one should live with a ``good heart``??????

On the other hand, your logical,inquisitive mind should impel you to question EVERYTHING that constitutes your mental conditioning right from childhood...on what is good and what is bad, what religion tells me to do, etc, etc.

You would then DOUBT everything...your thinking, your experiences, etc, etc. You would then find out FOR YOURSELF why all men are (in reality) impelled towards `bad heartedness`.


But NO...you simply hang onto some cliche...and your BELIEF arising from your early conditioning...that be `good hearted` and thats enough!

What`s `logical` and `Inquisitive` about that ??????

----------------------------------------

Would you concede that Bill Gates is happier than you?? Would you also concede that he`s less `good hearted` than you?

In any case...what is the secret of happiness???? Its certainly not `good heartedness`, Is it ??!!!


have a good night,

shankar #159 You the man! (incidentally, I need to learn how to make that fancy smiley face you have discovered on this new, crappola format chowk.)

dost #157 One certainly does not need the ``takiya`` of religion to live one`s life in accordance with the core message of all religions (which I put as ``good heart and a logical, inquisitive mind`` - and some basic character, I may add). BUT if one live`s ones life according to this core message, then one is on the right path anyway it would seem. That is, the ``good heart and character`` part takes care of the haqooq-ul-ibaad (aka dharma, as discussed earlier), whereas the logical, inquisitive mind takes care of the haqooq-i-ilahi part (since one is fulfilling the reason God put man on earth - to learn about His Creation - as is explicitly stated in the Quran, e.g.).
I have nothing against religious traditions (i.e. holidays like eid, holi, christmas, hannukah, as well as rituals and so forth) - AS LONG as we consider remember that these are merely traditions, and do not confuse them with religion (as is regularly done). AND as long these traditions are not relics of more primitive cultures (e.g. suttee in hindu tradition; subjugation of women behind the veil in the muslim tradition) that are being thrust upon society in the name of religion (or worse) newly created and self-serving ``traditions`` (e.g. use of the loudspeaker by the mullahs to yell at a captive audience at all hours of the day and night) that no one dares to question.

Shanker,

Cool it shrinkman. Sit in front of the mirror and diagnose what you problem is. It seems to me you have a compulsive disorder, that makes you boorish and obnoxious. Also a fetish, which boosts your ego, whenever your behavior is disgusting.

This is a lay person view. I am sure you as a professional will come up with a better diagnosis.

Shankar
#63 and #159:

Cant speak for everyone but I do use leather belts and shoes and such things. The leather is made from animals that were already slaughtered for food, but its not a good enough argument. But I dont claim perfection in following the principle of non violence and non killing. The logic behind not eating things that grow underground is that they have a lot of micro-organisms. Basically all life is valued, and you are supposed to cause as little harm to any life form as possible. Again, most Jains, esp younger ones restric themselves to being vegetarians and dont bother not to eat potatoes etc.

Your post #159:
You are a CRUDE debater. You could learn some tactics from Hamidm, how not to be totally unpalatable, insulting and uncivilized, while making your points. For some reason, you seem a little insincere and too-eager-to-please-the-audience when you diss Hinduism or India`s Kashmir policy.

Take care.
Satyavadi

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RE 159 ``If you were a man, I would have said ``you dont have your thumb up your butt...your ARM is in there--up to your elbows, at least..!``...but since youre a lady, I WONT say it... ``

Said it all the same didn`t ya? I could say a lot more on this subject but I wont.

(see thats the way to do it)

godot,

{{``..but i must confess it is probably not right for grownups to pull santa`s beard and say these things in front of the little kids..``


Yes!!!! Praise the Lord!!!! hamidm has seen the light!!!!!}}

Yo! godot, i hate to diss you cuz you`ve been nice to me:)

My take on hamidm`s quote was that he is pulling your leg sarcastically & mischeviously. Are we ``little kids`` on Chowk? that we should feel offended if some of us choose to be ``irreverent`` & ``disrespectful`` of the institution of religion ESP if we see a lot of CRAPOLA in it?!

OK, those of u who make such a biiiig to-do about religion, how insecure are you guys?!.... if some ``secular fundamentalists`` choose to mock our religion..hey its OUR choice....if your feeeeelings get hurt..boohooo..

Sadna,

I choose NOT to respond to your last post.. cos....dunno why...you get your nose out of joint if the wind blows too hard...& then I`ll get subjected to long, serious, philosophical sermons.

If you were a man, I would have said ``you dont have your thumb up your butt...your ARM is in there--up to your elbows, at least..!``...but since youre a lady, I WONT say it...

There are a couple of things I notice coming from a brahmin family with pretty strong vegetarian background.

My mother never cooks with garlic, mushroom. She has never made ``uttapham`` because it the dough has to be ``aged``. Perhaps, it is for this reason, cheese was a ``no-no``.

My grand mother who died in the 70s never used to cook with onions, potatos besides garlic, mushrooms.

Both my mom and my grand mother used a lot of ``okra`s`` which are called ladies`finger in india and bitter melon and a lot of melon family, sqash family, spinach etc. Someone told me that okra is good for the brain power to think logically, etc. I don`t know if true or not, but I see a lot of iyers and iyengars in a lot of analytical positions and we tend to maintain our cool.

Another thing I noticed with my mother, grand mother is that we were not allowed to eat any left over food and the first morsel of rice cooked always went to the crows. I was told crows signified forefathers, etc.
I don`t know much about the theory of crows but I can tell you that there were a lot of crows in my brother`s backyard in southern california days prior to my father`s death of old age. Usually, I don`t see crows in southern calif.

My wife doesn`t cook with garlic even though there are a lots of things that use garlic like pizza sauce besides a range of stuff. I know from my grand-ma saying that onions, garlic make a person aggressive and causes that person to be angry. Remember, being assertive is different from being aggressive.

I have tried eating fish only to have food poisoning. someone told me that the fish was cooked improperly. I have been told that chicken and fish besides other meat products if not cooked to a certain temperature can cause major problems.

I like being a vegetarian; it doesn`t allow any guilt trip and besides who can complain if your spouse cooks masala dosai, rava dosai, idli, rava idli, uthappam, uppuma etc with nice ``thengai`` chatney and sambar not only at home but also as ``lunch`` to my office in So California. I have been told that ``sambar-rasam-buttermilk`` in sequence steps brings the ``Ying-Yang`` balance that is needed for the body with bitter, sweet tastes.

In my office, I would say, atleast 25-30% are vegetarians. Most of them do so due to health problems and some belong to the ``peta`` types.

A correction to #148


``Dost-Mittar, I dont like Sameer because of his anti-religious stand. Infact I would rather he gives up his criticism of Islam altogether``

My grammar is going from bad to worse. The above sentence should be read as following,

``Dost-Mittar, I like Sameer not because of his anti-religious stand. Infact I would rather he gave up his criricism of Islam altogether.``

hamidm2, #153

``..but i must confess it is probably not right for grownups to pull santa`s beard and say these things in front of the little kids..``

Yes!!!! Praise the Lord!!!! hamidm has seen the light!!!!!

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pmishra2 #149 Let us agree to agree then that the caste system is bad, and agree to disagree on the relevance (or lack thereof) of drawing comparisons between two evils (ANY two evils, even if the other evil is genocide).

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godot

you said :`` Let`s say that you have a six year old daughter who`s ugly as a bitch to others. How many decent people you think would say to your face that your precious little girl is ugly without breaking your heart?``

..........thanks for explaining why one should not make fun of faith and religion, but this argument does not apply because in this case you will be stating the truth about something that is very real and the truth will hurt .......... however, when you question flying pigs and other flights of fancy, anyone with half a mind should know that you are talking about silly stuff that simply can`t be true ........ you are telling the truth about an obvious untruth ............ you cannot be labelled ``a rude jerk, a boor or an all round judgemantal person`` for saying santa clause is not real - afterall, innocent little kids say it all the time ......... but i must confess it is probably not right for grownups to pull santa`s beard and say these things in front of the little kids.........

Curious, but here are a few thoughts ....
There is something we do not know about pork, but the medical world has found it to be the most compatible with humans - more than any other animal, including the monkey/chimp/ape family. In heart transplants, the hearts from pigs were the most successful. Today, the heart valves made by Shiley Labs (and Hancock) are made from pigs hearts. Other organ transplants have shown the most success when they were from pigs. The new replacement skin tissues are being made from pig tissue (among others). One of the major makes of Collagen (for cosmetic surgery) is Fibrel, which is made from pigs.
And of course, we have the accounts of the cannibals of Borneo who told the British anthropologist that the humans they killed and ate tasted exactly like pork.
The restriction that Islam places upon us regarding pork has something in it ... we require a little more intra-perspective to see what it has revealed.

sadna #150

Let me chime in to agree with you. Mark Tully, a distinguished indian journalist, has written of ``secular fundamentalism`` and has rightly pointed out that it is as much a disease as religous fundamentalism.

A person who condemns a second persons behavior as ``CRAPOLA``, when tha second person has not harmed the first, is a rude jerk, a boor and just all round judgemental person. It is no different from someone
coming to me and saying ``you are a moron because you eat rice`` or ``I hate people like you who have small feet``.

Unfortiunately, there is a class of people who routinely use this type of abusive language referring to faith communities. Shankar`s comments fall into this class (BTW there are many much worse). I guess these guys feel they are very ``modern`` and ``advanced``. They are not, they are just boorish, rude and abusive people.

nasah #137
My perspective and experience maynot be that all Hindu pooja is `crapola`. Why cannot I disagree with the great shankar on this? Why is my point of view less valid than his, merely because you think my point of view is less negative about Hindu practice than his?

(And why am I having to explain myself to you? Dear nasah, I enjoy interacting with you so I sincerely hope you willnot develop into one of the self-appointed demigods who roam chowk abusing er pronouncing their divine judgement on posters who dare disagree with them )

Anyone is free to criticise any aspect of Hinduism, and deserves a civil answer from those who disagree, which I always try to give on my account. But such a person must be prepared for disagreement in his turn. Because everyone maynot share the same subset of information and perspectives as the critic. Surely when someone generously says he speaks for 99% Hindus instead of all 100%, you expect someone to disagree with him, great man though he is?

I donot know about Muslim preachers or the compulsions of Islam and Islamic society, but I have never heard a Hindu holy man or the most religious person I know, harangue people about their personal religious beliefs like I hear shankar doing, almost like proselytization.

If he is interested in learning more about Hindu belief practice or scripture, there is plenty of information out there, many good books on B&N and Amazon, many lectures, ashrams, its all within reach. A sincere critic will find plenty to criticise in all these.

If he is not interested in knowing more, thats his free choice and his opinions are not less valid for it. But someone who is secure in the dimensions of his own PERSONAL choices of wife or religion or food should not feel the need to harangue others for the dimensions of theirs.

Either we are here exchanging information and perspectives or we are showing how pseudo-liberal we are by passing blanket condemnations of Hindus, particularly those who disagree with us. If the latter, do it on your own time.

tahmed #144

I dont want to over-do the caste discussion as no sensible
person (BTW, not even the RSS-chaddis) can defend it as
practiced even today in parts of india.

However, I respectfully submit that as compared
to genocide of peoples considered ``different`` or ``deviant``
it is certainly no worse and could perhaps be considered
better. If Hitler has declared every european jew as outside
normal society (``untouchable``), limited them economically and socially, confined
them to ghettos, his crime would have been much less
enormous that what he did in fact do to them.

Caste has often been used as a convenient and hypocritical tool to ``bash`` india
and hindu society. There is a similar situation with europeans who turn up
their noses at the mess of US race relations, whereas they
themselves originate from societies that define themselves as
ethnically homogenous!

My point simply is that caste is one
of the crimes against humanity committed against humans by humans. These
include slavery and genocide of less war-like cultures and traditions. These crimes are not unique to india or to hindus.

Sameer Sahab and Dost-Mittar

Dost-Mittar, I dont like Sameer because of his anti-religious stand. Infact I would rather he gives up his criticism of Islam altogether. He is at his best when he writes about history, geography, anthropology and evolutionary theories. He is probably one of very few persons on Chowk who has sufficiently deep knowledge of these fields and so he can pull the basic principles from all these fields to generate penetrating insights. When he writes about religion, it is boring for it hardly adds to my knowledge. I dont think one needs to know anything more about religion other than ``Paropakaaray punyay, papaay parpeednam``.

dost mittar #140 Religion is what you understand it to be. In saying all religions are IN ESSENCE the same, I am not alone. Read, for example, the best selling book ``The World`s Relgions`` by Huston Smith, and he makes precisely the same distinction between the ESSENCE of all major religions, and the mess of rituals, superstitions, myths, historical accidents, and so forth that encrust the simple, profound message of all religions. And he reaches the same conclusion I did in my post - all religions in essence are the same. And a true muslim (or hindu or anything else) is one who is interested in the ESSENCE, not the bs surrounding it, and as such I am correct in concluding that a true muslim is also a true hindu, a true christian, and a true every-other-religion.
I understand religion to be in essence having a good heart and a logical, inquisitive mind. I find inspiration for this understanding in the Quran, and from what I understand are the basic teachings of other religions - hinduism, christianity, buddhism.
Most people in Pakistan and India understand religion to be superstitions, self-serving rituals, and so forth. To me, it is immaterial whether it is the chauvinists islam or the chauvinists hinduism. They are both dirt. And far from sweeping them under the rug, I am REJECTING these as having anything to do with true religion, and tossing them in the garbage dump.

sameerJB: Glad to see you here. You never bothered to respond to my request for the source of your information that the dravidians first came to India after the last ice age (10,000 years) when I have never seen any discussion on where the dravidians came from that goes further back than the Harappan civilization of 4,000 years back. I would appreciate your response, even if it means simply advising me that you pulled this one out of your hat.

pmishra2 #129 Your points are all well-taken. You are quite right in saying that it is wrong to lump your post and that of anarayan together. Only one minor dispute: you say ``Compared to the genocide of the european jews, the mass murder of native americans by europeans or the genocide perpetrated by the early islamic conquerors of north india, caste is a relatively benign if cruel way to deal with diversity. `` I beg to differ. Comparisons are odious. And never more so then when they are made to justify a wrong thing. The caste system and the word benign simply do not go together. A caste is not a guild or a professional society. It is at best means to rob the individual of his/her individuality at birth, by placing a stamp on him/her. At worst it has led to atrocities of all kind.
This does not mean that the evils committed by people in the past - including the many evils committed by islamic conquerors in the name of religion, not the least of which was destroying hindu places of worship - are anything less than evil. It just means we dont start comparing two evils, with one being considered ``more benign`` than another. Nor does it mean that we Pakistanis are free from the caste system. We just dont acknowledge it - but tell a ``Syed`` that he/she is no better than a ``Bhangi`` and it is no different than telling a Brahim that he/she is no better than a Shudra.

Re: hamidm2, #123

``.. can somone explain to me why we have to ``respect`` people`s faith and religion as silly as it may be? ..``

Let`s say that you have a six year old daughter who`s ugly as a bitch to others. How many decent people you think would say to your face that your precious little girl is ugly without breaking your heart?

addendum to my last post #142.
The untouchables in India should also think about exiting and forming their own myths or joining some other religion where they can be treated fairly. Perhaps following Dr. Ambedkar is the right path.

dost-mittar #136: I don`t think all hindian love me and couple of them who like me (you and Pankaj) do it for being rational and for friendship with India. Hamidm is loved for his literary style. Actually hurling insults to Islam has lot more negative consequences than flowing with the tide. It is lot easy for me to be liked much more by simply modifying each post to win popularity.
I accept the importance of different kind of identities, religion being one of them. However identities are not something to be worn on sleeve or carrying a backpack containing the details of following a noble path according to individual belief. For me, it is damn truth and reality that pushes me faster to the bottom of things than the fake facial makeup. It is not about denial of god`s existance. I also believe that most of the famous religious founders and personalities are mythical, small time social activists, tribal elders or most likely never existed.
Second point is looking at the history in general and family history in prticular. Islam has not done a sh1t for my family in the last 400 years since conversion. They were poor farmers and actually like most Punjabi Muslims, fell further and further behind in education and material wealth than those who chose not to convert or later on converted to some other religion. Nothing but generations of pain and marginal existance sustained with a constant diet of promise of better future in afterlife. Simply put, they would have been better off by not converting or reconverting to something better or creating their own myths to follow. How could I remain attach to it with this thinking? I found it more easy and pleasing to exit and learn and follow something else than remaining attached to an ideology guaranteed to lead on a downhill path and not passing it on to another genertion. I am even decent with strangers and being malicious towards half of my own genes is out of question for me?

mittar ji...
when did i say that there was no hope of redemption--i don`t think i`ve ruined your plans in the least bit...i just said I didn`t know whether Hitler or I were going to make it to heaven. Please don`t halt your plans because of me :)

Islam is a religion. It is a religion, like many others.
And like other religions, it has sometimes been used as an excuse for practicing fascism.
As this article illustrates, the practice of Islam in America has acquired
a unique flavor. ``An Island Fortress`` or ``Open House`` were our options.
Unfortunately for many of our community, the Island Fortress option
has been the one chosen.
Mosques and Islamic centers have done a decent job distributing the
FORM of Islam. That is where Halal and Haram food, practices etc. have
taken center stage. Unfortunately the CONTENT of Islam has taken a back seat. Mosques and Islamic centers have sometimes become places where individual, family, ethnic and other rivalries are being played out.
The CONTENT of Islam goes way beyond Halal Food. It stresses that the earnings from which food is purchased should also be Halal.

(Aisha Sarwari, in my opinion this is your best writing on CHOWK yet)

Ras Siddiqui

tahmed #134


First, please do not associate me with random peoples comments on caste, such as for example, anaryan.

I do not associate you with bin Laden, Mullah Omar, Zia ul-Haq, Imam Bukhari, the jihadis in Kashmir , the millions of hate mongers that profess wahabism or any of the many hyper-aggressive and barbaric dialects of islam, so please
do not associate me with some random guys comment, even if he happens to be a hindu.

The question was asked in a kind of aggressive tone: can one become a hindu? and the answer is clear -- yes, you may but for, converted hindus unlike other
religions, you are not required to destroy your existing traditions. There is no special merit or reward for converting another person in hindu traditions. Indeed, remaining in ones birth traditions is suggested as the normative path in hindu tradition.

If you bother to look at the actual facts of hindu conversion as practiced today: most people are given a neutral last name Singh or Kumar. They are also assigned some kind of kshatriya like middle caste. I know several americans as well as indian tribals who ``converted`` as they wanted to have a stronger hindu identity. They received names like Gobind Kumar, Ram Singh, Jaya Kumari as well as a ``nava kshatriya`` caste. Some of them on study of ritual and scripture, chose to participate in the hindu ``janayoo`` ceremony and receive the sacred thread. To give a western reference, this is quite similar to the jewish ``bar mitzvah``.

On the other hand, if you just want to rant about caste, go right ahead.

The evils of casteism are widely acknowledged and understood in modern India and amongst hindus. Compared to the genocide of the european jews, the mass murder of native americans by europeans or the genocide perpetrated by the early islamic conquerors of north india, caste is a relatively benign if cruel way to deal with diversity. None of this changes the need to move away from caste, but it does provide the appropriate historical context for it.

to #129

goras go straight to brahminhood...makes me think kallooos will end up being shuddars... how racist and wrong!!!

so i guess this discriminatory ideology stuck in their heads makes mobs of thousands capable of beating and burning alive other human beings..sick...very very sick

re. AAmir #3:
[ ``Guilt is the first step towards Islam``
Thats a new one for me .
If muslims are guilty of breaking religous laws what about the Christians who ``are born sinner`` with all life hoping against hope that ``oh god let Jesus be Son of God`` and he will get all...]
Ok. you`ve proved your point!
Ayesha, please note: It`s not guilt; it`s defensiveness.
:)

Ref anarayan #129

[Anyone heard of kauai?

Earlier this week I met a gora bookshop owner who`s been a hindu for some 25 years. He and his group are building a siva temple on kauai...for which he wheedled me out of a $20 (donation).

He spoke with passion of his guru`s dream of building the temple there. Apparently the guru had a dream wherein he beheld the Lord himself walking around kauai blessing all and sundry.

Now I thought this guru must be one of those clever Mahesh yogi types...relieving goras of their cash.

Imagine my surprise when I saw the guru`s photo - another Gora!!!]

The gora Guru, now dead, is Sivaya Subramuniya Swamy. He founded the Saivite Temple in Kauai, and in San Francisco and Concord, CA. The San Francisco temple is now defunct. The Concord Temple was sold to Indians and the local American congregation doesn`t show up any more.

The late Guru spent a dozen years in Tamil Nadu learning about Hinduism and was ordained a monk. He returned to the US with the intention of spreading Saivism amongst the Americans. The temple in Kauai plans to use a naturally occurring 6 foot tall quartz crystal as the lingam.

The Saivite Church publishes a magazine called `Hinduism Today`. It probably is still available on the web.

But seriously, yeah Aamir, I agree, Islam is not the first religion that comes to mind (if at all it does) when you think of the role of guilt in furthering its ``agenda.`` Maybe Ayesha has been influenced more than a little by her Convent School upbringing?

anarayan #129 So the major issue that has emerged in this question of converting to hinduism is ``which caste?`` To which anarayan helpfully writes ``depends on your color, light skins become brahmins, dark ones become some lower caste``. And pmishra2 before that gives a warm welcome to hinduism, the same as mullahs suddenly lose the chip on their shoulder and fall over themselves to ``welcome to Islam, brother/sister`` when some individual is fooled into converting to ``Islam`` (i.e. the pagan mullah version of islam). Hate to say it, but you people are full of it.
The truth is: if you are a true muslim, you are ALSO a true hindu at the same time and a true buddhist, and true every other religion. No need for conversions. And caste is not an issue, since a true hindu does not believe in castes.
The truth is: what you people practice, whether hinduism in India or islam in Pakistan or anywhere else, is pagan superstition and reflective of the primitive cultures. Not religion of any kind, hinduism or islam. If you dont believe me, go read your ``manuals`` (holy books) and use your heads while reading them.

Sadna to Shanker

“Just why is it your business to exhort anyone else for what they believe or do. Just like food habits, its everyones own choice, not yours to approve or disapprove. Are you the new Prophet? Why must Ignorance be forced down anyone`s throats as the new religion and the new morality ?
Anyway, Pakis must love the way whenever they are faced with the necessity of discussing Islam, some Indians are happy to turn up and begin to self-flagellate.””(Sadna)

oh, no -- hold it, hold it -- my dear sadna begum – wait a minute –

is that really you? – or some imposter using ur name? – or is this a piece of a biting feminist satire that got a little mangled in the process of posting?

of course -- smart Alecshanker the Great – has every business to exercise his right to freedom of speech on Chowk – or is a progressive gal like u questioning even that?

He is certainly NOT -- Prophet Shanker (pbuh) – but he certainly IS -- Doctor Shanker (pbuh) -- licensed by the Michigan Board of Medicine -- to diagnose Ignorance -- and treat Ignorance with Fee for Service speech -- not force his bitter medicine down anyone’s throat who is unwilling to pay n listen.

We should all be thankful to Dr. Shanker -- for not charging us for his free speech.

Btw – sadna bi – WHY -- when Muslims self-flagellate about -- Pakistan & Islam -- on Chowk -- that’s a pretty sight – but when Hindus self-flagellate in public -- about India AND Hinduism – it’s NOT???

let`s not hide the our household baharan/trash under the rug -- it`s a health hazard -- good habit to use a trash can -- and put the trash OUTDOORS for the grabage disposal truck -- every sunday/friday night.

#112 by troll:
``so if you can convert to hinduism, what caste do new converts belong to, the lowest one i presume????``


troll,

I guess this would depend on the convert`s `varna` - color.

All the ISKCON goras seem to have the sacred thread and tufts, so one may surmise that they are converted as brahmins. I`ve met some non-ISKCON goras who converted...and they too seem to have gone straight to brahminhood.

Does anyone know any non-whites who converted to hinduism???

------------------------------------

Anyone heard of kauai?

Earlier this week I met a gora bookshop owner who`s been a hindu for some 25 years. He and his group are building a siva temple on kauai...for which he wheedled me out of a $20 (donation).

He spoke with passion of his guru`s dream of building the temple there. Apparently the guru had a dream wherein he beheld the Lord himself walking around kauai blessing all and sundry.

Now I thought this guru must be one of those clever Mahesh yogi types...relieving goras of their cash.

Imagine my surprise when I saw the guru`s photo - another Gora!!!


cheers,

> #126 Perhaps just start by washing your hands...

reminds me that probably much more serious than eating or not eating pigs is the Islamic instructions about using hands to wash butts after taking a crap... even before losing my faith, I used to find this disgusting myself and never did this but I believe a lot of people still do it because its the ``sunnat`` or whatever... and now Im thinking of all the times I ate at Paki restaurants and even aunties houses and such..yuckkkkkkkkkkkkk

shankar
To be honest if someone thinks what you say is crap, why cannot they point it out to you? Why is it only your privilege to do so? You yourself have posted enough posts on penis gods and other stuff without anyone objecting so far. Just why is it your business to exhort anyone else for what they believe or do. Just like food habits, its everyones own choice, not yours to approve or disapprove. Are you the new Prophet? Why must Ignorance be forced down anyone`s throats as the new religion and the new morality ?

Anyway, Pakis must love the way whenever they are faced with the necessity of discussing Islam, some Indians are happy to turn up and begin to self-flagellate. Seems to me subcontinental Islam in Pakistan is a hollow shell which has nothing to it except a hatred of Hindus.

For those who are interested here this mention of Muslim oral traditions in S. India:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/lr/2001/12/02/stories/2001120200210300.htm


There was a very good exhibition on aspects of Hindu worship in the NY Museum of Natural History some months ago. The photographer whose works were displayed has published a good book too, and yes he is a gora not one of your hated coreligionists.

Meeting God: Elements of Hindu Devotion by Stephen Huyler

a Crapola is a Crapola is a Crapola – no matter where it’s thrown from --a masjid, -- a mandir – or a church -- it’s looks the same -- stinks the same – and spreads the same –

for Atopic personalities -- Chowk -- is exactly -- the Free Allergy Clinic -- where sensitive skins can get their desensitization Shots to relieve allergic dermatitis – by dr. shanker and dr. hamidm – FREE of CHARGE.

Reply Shankar #122

``Jeeze, all you ``enlightened`` guys walk around in life with your thumbs up your butts. Get a life...better yet, get a thicker skin.``

Perhaps just start by washing your hands...

Hari

`Christ is the son of God. It means God selected a white dude to be the savior of all humanity which consists of non-whites also. `

Your are wrong man. Christ was a jew and a semite not the the european kind. Chances are he looked like Nasser or Sadat.
You think he was white because you have seen pictures drawn by whites showing a whitle guy with brown/blonde hair and blue eyes. You haven`t seen pictures of Christ in black churches and homes, he looks dark almost negroid. To top it of a korean christian friend tells me he looks oriental in all the pictures in that part of the world.

This is a clear case of man made God in his own image, rather than the other way round.

As far as Mohammed is concerned, Islam does not allow the image of prophet to be made. Otherwise you would have seen him looking different in every country where there are muslims.

....... can somone explain to me why we have to ``respect`` people`s faith and religion as silly as it may be? ................. why can`t we can a spade a spade and tell the hindoos that they are stupid to believe in a dancing woman with six arms and a god with a elephant nose riding a rat? ...... and why do we have to get on poor jerry falwell`s case for calling the prophet (pbuh) a war mongerer ? ......... after all this fool also believes that a virgin actully gave birth and the god-man walked on water ? ................... why can we ``disrepect`` everything from baseball to apple-pie to mother-hood but cannot say anything bad about absurd nonsense that delusional folk believe in ? ............ why, everyone would laugh me out the door for actually believing in the tooth fairy and the fatman of christmas, but everyone gets all philosophical and starts spouting sanskrit and latin and arabic when you talk about equally silly creature and their unholy antics ?.......... what makes religion sacred ? ............. why do we assume that there is some goodness in all this goobeldygook and pussy foot around horse manure pretending it is not there ? ...................... i don`t understand it

pmishra2,

{{An enlightened person can distance himself/herself from various religous practices without calling them ``CRAPOLA``. }}

Ok dude I`m not an enlightened person; so sue me.
I`m a gawar red-brown neck from some BFE town in Michigan. If it looks like crapola, smells like crapola & disgusts me like crapola, I call it crapola.

Jeeze, all you ``enlightened`` guys walk around in life with your thumbs up your butts. Get a life...better yet, get a thicker skin.

AzadMunna #83:
``In fact Ram played by an Actor .Gowle??was chosen for his Complexion as much a Gora an Indian Hindu can be.``

That was Arun Gowil.
But Azadbhai has a point here. Rama is often presented as a tall,fair, clean cut young man bordering on the point of femininity (lip gloss and all).

Makes me wonder how many hindus have actually read valmiki`s original stuff?

Rama is described by valmiki as a man of MEDIUM height, BROWN skin, high cheekbones, long arms, prominent clavicle, etc, and immense strength.

Any guesses Who could fit the part of the REAL Ram?!!

---------

Anyway, AzadMunna, that proves Indian `aryan` does not equate to `gora`. OK? Mind it!

Shankar#93

You are right when you say most of the Hindus dont know about Hindu philosophy. I would be really surprised if any of the VHP goons or Mr. Togadia has ever read Geeta or upanishadas. That is why I never hear from them quotes justifying their madness from these books. That`s why I took the trouble to go through as many books on Hinduism as possible so and form my own philosophy. Hinduism, IMO, is a collection of varied schools of thought, that range from being spiritualistic to materialistic(Charvak philosophy), and from theistic to almost atheistic/agnostic (sankhya). A Hindu is free to choose from any one of these philosophies or if need be, invent one of his own(Swami Vivekananda) seeking inspiration from any philosophy. That`s the best part about Hindism. This freedom of choice automatically entails tolerence in Hinduism for the dissenting thoughts. In Kushinara, while Buddha was on his deathbead, Anand went to seek his last advice to his followers. Buddha after some thought, refused to give him sermon and advised his followers to be their own light. This is also what some of the Upanishadas say. It is not your faith in some God/Gods, or some Book that is important what is important is what you do in this world. Or as beautifully summarised in the Sanskrit shloka- Paropkaraay Punyay, Papaay parpeednam.

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#76 by dost-mittar:

…you are right of course…should have been more careful and said ‘most major religions’…but nevertheless…my emphasis is more on a subjective and personal sense of individual and collective good relatively free of dogmas and rituals and based more on collective sensibility and less on religiosity or irreligiosity…

#77 by sameerJB;

…you know the answer already;)…yes, in everything, religion, politics, …in life itself…there is more grey than black and white…that being common…we get our bearings looking at the poles…

[…second objection is the limits of practicing a religion publically in a definitely non-friendly environment…]
---well, again…am looking at the ‘individual’ in relation to his ‘environment’…and his actions as they pertain to collective good in that environment…

thank you both for your comments on my highly subjective and personal comment

Prem # 78:

[…Ashtaadash puraneshu Vyashashya vachanadvayam:
Paropkaaraya punyaya, paapaaya parapidanam....
``In all his eighteen Puranas, Vyas says only two things: to help others is virtuous (punya) and to cause pain to others is sin (paap).``…]

Prem ‘punya’ and ‘paap’… that is what living is about… thanks for that quote

#105 by sac:

``...people can be moral without being godly for the simple reason that morality precedes ideology-religion is a way of organizing our ideas about good and evil, and not necessarily the origin of those ideas...``

---will wait for the other shoe to drop…

rgds,

t

To me religion is a local issue. Here is why:

According to christianity, Christ is the son of God. It means God selected a white dude to be the savior of all humanity which consists of non-whites also. On a logical level, all things being equal, God would have choosen an African Black or an Oriental person to be his messenger.
Specifically selecting a white guy confers some suspicion on the ``son of God`` stuff.

Similarly, Muhammad is the messenger of God, says Islam. Why would God select an Arab dude to be the messenger for all humanity. Again, all things being equal, God communicating with Muhammad in Arabic because that is the only language Muhammad knew, then why impose that language as the ONLY language to learn Quran is beyond me.
Add to that, the arab customs/cultures which are medieval when one looks at it objectively and shoving it on other cultures is also bizarre.

Personally, I like Hinduism and Buddhism because it is ok to err as a human or discard some customs or beliefs and for that matter incorporate customs/beliefs if it is beneficial to someone. A million Gods/Goddesses atleast gives a free choice. Oh, there is a Hindu God for Booze as well, seriously!

nooralain

``This clearly shows your lack of understanding where the Christian faith is concerned, at least. And how d`you know that Hitler will go to heaven...as a Christian, I don`t even know whether I am going to heaven, and I am not responsible for the death of six million people. And it is not just through faith alone...that salvation is determined in the Christian faith. Just thought I`d point that out to you.
``

It was not my intention to hurt anyone`s religious feelings. I apologise if I sounded like that. You may be a very good person individually and have your own interpretation of religious things. Ultimately it is interpretation that matters. However what I said was my own understanding, imperfect it may be, through discussions with some Christians and a little Bible reading. Infact one such zealot emphasized that good dedds WILL NOT earm me the right to go to heaven(if that exists which I very much doubt), but faith and faith alone. Without Christian faith, no number of good deeds matter. Of Course I slammed on his face my own understanding of the world and Geeta that DEEDS and deeds alone matter. It is my understanding that virtues and virtues alone matter not faith in some creed.

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so if you can convert to hinduism, what caste do new converts belong to, the lowest one i presume????

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UmerMurtaza #108

I wonder where you got the strange idea that you cannot become
a hindu. I know of several people who have chosen to become
hindus. Indeed, one of the sources of tension in India has been hindu
``reconversion`` starting from the Arya Samaj and today with the VHP.

It is another matter that becoming hindu does not involve swearing
fealty to an exclusive god/prophet or destroying your traditional
representations of divinity.


Would you like to become a hindu?
I would be happy to send you some URLs/addresses.

The religion (?) of Time Cube is pretty cool... http://www.timecube.com

> #97 ``In my opinion, the best religion is the least religion. Shintoism,
> anyone? `` Are you pantheist Dost Saab ...
> http://www.pantheism.net ?!

shankar #93
I would have hated to learn anything on religion formally when I was young, I used to feel sorry for those who had to learn their Catholic catechism.

Thats a gora-ish outlook that everything to do with religion needs to come from a book. Thats the hard part about a way of life, IMO, how to preserve it in its diversity and dynamics without harming it through standardization and regimentation while also getting rid of the bad parts. The rude remarks about something wrong with `Hinduism` not being from a book and fed to a child from childhood can be ignored as gross ignorance or the inability to cope with a nonJudeoChristian outlook on life, though I have to say Jews are admirable in how they have been able to preserve religion, its associated cultures and its diversities. The various strains of Christianity in the US haven`t done too badly either.

Traditionally, with a high percentage of illiteracy the way society was structured, brahmins were those who were supposed to acquire learning, preserve the scriptures and disseminate them to general public. For this reason Hindu traditions among ordinary folk have been largely oral traditions passed on through `culture`, practices and mythology with regional/ community variations and selective emphasis.

I think beginning with the medieval times, seers in many parts of the country wrote/reinterpreted the older scriptural and other newer traditions in the vernacular languages. As a small example, you have many Vedantic principles enunciated for common people to understand in the simple language and dialect of Kabir and concepts like `neti neti` (that the undescribable Absolute is ``not this, not that`` ) even referred to in the Tulsidas Ramcharitmanas along with other concepts expounded in the Upanishads.

And even illiterate people generally had access to discourses by learned people. And as you say bhajans and ballads have played their part too. A number of folk practices, like dissolving of the image of Durga or Ganapathi after the festivals(that the idol is only a temporary embodiment of the indescribable One) , the inclusion of a little dirt from the dirtiest part of the house for pooja(every particle has god in it). Also, a practice every morning of apologising to mother earth for putting one`s foot down on her. The concept of deification of the elements and mother earth bearing our weight is out of the Rig Veda if I am not mistaken. Many festivals and their significance have connection with the ideas in the scripture.

India has a lot of oral tradition, religious and nonreligious. roohi had referred to a site about the Hindvi oral traditions of Amir Khusro, another example which exist/existed in UP. Indians need to record these oral traditions urgently, before they are lost, there is a lot of it and every region/subregion has different sets and styles. (Keralites are smart, they are already on the job).

Even in modern times, IMO, a religious? familiarity is more an involuntary imbibing of sights sounds stories and ideas when you are in India. When you are out of India, the imbibing may have to be selective, formal and out of a book. btw, you should get `Gods, Demons and Others` by RK Narayan, he has very nicely renarrated a number of selected stories from mythology in his own style and as if narrated by the village storyteller.

Dear Arjun,

If Hinduism is free for all and if there isn`t really a membership concept to it, then why is it that Non-Hindus cannot become Hindus.

Umer M.

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Joke for your pleasure. (This should give jay a big thrill).

>A Pakistani Ambassador to the UN just finished giving a
>speech, and walks out into the lobby where he met
>President Bush. They shook hands and walked together
>in the long verandah when suddenly the Pakistani said,
>``You know, I have just one question about what I have
>seen in America.``
>
>President Bush says ``Well your Excellency, anything I
>can do to help you, I will do.``
>
>The Pakistani whispers, ``My son watches this show
>`Star Trek` and in it there are Russians, and Blacks,
>Chinese, Japanese and Indians but never any Pakistani,
>Afghani or Arabs. So my son is very upset. He doesn`t
>understand nor do I about why there aren`t any Arabs,
>Pakistanis, and Afghanis in the Star Trek show.``
>
>President Bush laughs and leans toward the Pakistani,
>and whispers in his ear, ``Because... the show is all about the future.``

shankar #93

YOu are clearly a secular fundamentalist, as your post demonstrates, but please try to be polite about practices and devotional
forms that are deeply meaningful to people of faith. Otherwise, all you are proving is that you are a boor and happy to bad-mouth a faith community connected to your family background. An enlightened person can distance himself/herself from various religous practices without calling them ``CRAPOLA``.

Sameer/temporal:

Here`s a little something to stoke the fire a bit. The contributor shall remain nameless.

``...people can be moral without being godly for the simple reason that morality precedes ideology-religion is a way of organizing our ideas about good and evil, and not necessarily the origin of those ideas...``

re Shankar #93:

Most hindus(practising as well as non-practising) I`ve met would agree with your post. I don`t know if they`ll ever come out and openly admit it though!

later
-sac

not everything is black and white. and Islam is certainly not about piglet and pooh, halal and not halal, or nailpolish and prayer. Islam is about belief.

I have lived 20 years in America, I have never prayed, I have eaten pork, I love Winnie the Pooh and all his friends, and yes, I always wear nail polish. I have friends who do pray, who do not wear nail polish because they have to pray, who DO care about halal food, and who do NOT eat pig. Does it bother me? NO. because I am secure within myself. What I do or what I eat or what I believe does not bother them either.

Many religions forbid the consumption of something or another. Hinduism does not allow the eating of beef, just like Mormonism does not allow the drinking of coffee. So people don`t like eating pigs, so people don`t like wearing nail polsih and praying, so people search out foods that don`t contain thiamine monosaturates, who are we to say that`s wrong. Isn`t belief subjective? The Amish have given up technologies and continue to live as pilgrims did. Is that wrong also?

i`m sorry to say, but this article is offensive and is filled with blatant disrespect. I may not be the perfect muslim, but I do respect all the world`s religions and beliefs.

``Feel good, you all. All you all, feel good.`` As an American-Muslim, I DO feel good, I feel secure, I feel satisfied with what I believe. Maybe you need to look inward and analyze yourself a bit and deal with that insecurity, before you start analyzing others.

re nooralain #84.

I have very little knowledge of christianity which is gleaned from bible pushers on campus.
Is it true that God regards all the humans, whether Idi Amin or Edhi or a 1 day old baby as sinners and the only way to be forgiven for our sins is to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour and believe that he has already died for our sins? Is this belief just a necessary condition to go to heaven or also a sufficient condition? I was lead to believe by campus bible-pushers that it is a necessary and sufficient condition.
cheers

Shankar, #93

Sankar, I don`t normally read posts at Chowk. They are usaully very predictable: you see the name of the interactor, you know what`s this post about, you just don`t bother.

But every once in a while, a post catches my attention (I guess that`s because it`s meant to be...or why would I stumble upon to this post of yours...I have no idea what`s going on other boards...) Your post #93 caught my attention...and let me tell you this... Very well written, comes from the heart, very honest, very well said, and I learned a lot from it...Thanks!!!!

Aisha,
Intresting look into other peoples lives ... never thought people would have to think about Astrix & Oblix, Pooh and Piglet etc. I totally agree that symbols are shallow and pointless and it is more valuable to try to understand and form a connection with the core spirit of the culture/religion of your non-american roots.

All American immigrants from non-euro-christian religions and cultures have had to figure out what are the meaningful components of their identity that that they want to preserve in the melting pot - or even from euro-christian backgrounds (have you seen My Great Big Greek Wedding ?) - you`re on the outside looking in and obviously not liking what you see - easy for you ! Shades of true-desi codescendsion to the confused ABCD !

Don`t understand why you ``can`t leave Islam`` because it`s your ``nation`s national religion`` and because it let`s you ``grow with your nation`` ... even though ``my maker is outside Islam as much as she is within it`` - seems a bit muddled to me - but if you can say that last bit girl, there IS still hope in the world !!!

Dost #76
``In my opinion, the best religion is the least religion. Shintoism, anyone? `` Are you pantheist Dost Saab ... http://www.pantheism.net ?!

I am soiling INDULGENCES! Doesanybody wanting INDULGENCES? Iam soiling for goodly price, okay?

Pankajbai?
Nooralainbehain?

Eveni fyou are not need, why notbuying for wicked relative,s, frieds, wellwushers, haiN? (Buy TWOfo r Deepka! No, buy THREE! Infuct buying threeI wilgive fourth for halfr price.)

thisi s parfect Christmas present,e vben for non-Christianity.

Also for publicsarvice youca nbuy and sendt opoltician of choice. (Hum gift wrap bhee kar saktay haiN. Santa Claus valay paper meiN bhee...)

Sendignto Ataljee, or Musharrafjee? Or even Advaniji? Even to Pop in Vatcan, or Osama bin Laddoo (destination undisclosing)! Creed/notional origan NO BAR! (bar is haram, see, sharaab bechtay haiN...)

Letm e knowing quick, naheeN tau all willb ghayab, sale like hotcaks.

Ok - salaam!

(Howy ouare like my nayah busness? Groovy, na?)

yes, funny indeed !!!!! Im talking about the PIG part !
I am inclined to sit on the fence on this one , swinging neither here nor there. I grew up in the gulf. a large number of my friends are muslim. I have friends who eat pork even though they are muslims. They`ve come to terms with ``TASTE``, i like to call it. I also have muslim friends that shake their heads and cover their plates when they see pork being served. My current girlfriend is a muslim. She doesn`t like pork either and her never having tried it, all I can say is ``baby you`re missing something`` in between mouthfuls of my bacon, salami, sausages and eggs ! Hmm, funny indeed all this Pig talk... !!

nasah sahib,

I`ve been called a lot of things on Chowk by my ``admirers``...but ``Shanker the Great``!!....hmmmm thats a new one!:)
Thankyou!:)

Now that you have praised this brahmin( my naseeb...sigh); let me be MORE blunt about Hinduism.

Hinduism is a religion that very very few hindus understand. One has to be an educated philosopher to understand the meaning of the Baghwad Geeta, Upanishads & sundry good books. Now, the majority of hindus are illiterate. So what do they/I know about hindu philosophy?

Let me tell you the blunt truth. 99% of hindus know ZILCH about hindu philosophy. Yeah there are guys like Dr RShridhar who have taken the trouble (& have the necessary intelligence) to read & comprehend what hinduism is.

So, how do we/most of us learn about hinduism? From our parents, grandparents etc. You think I learnt one bit of hinduism from a goddamned bhatji?! They dont give sermons like catholic priests & muslim mullahs (Whew...THANK GOD!!:)). All these hindu priests do is perform pujas & other mindless rituals, whose philosophical symbolism, their ``devoted congregations`` barely understand (unless somebody takes the time to explain it to them). Like....how many of us understand sanskrit?! Another thing about these bhatjis...99% of the time when they perform a puja, they mumble under their breath. I mean, they are more incomprehensible than a doctor`s handwriting! Jesus Christ!! they could be reciting that mornings matka numbers, for all I know!

Another way we learn about our religion is by listening to bhajans & FOLKLORE. Hindu mythology is incredibly imaginative. If you THINK metaphorically, then monkey gods, snake gods & all the incredible stories like the Ramayan & Mahabharat. & fables of the fascinating Panchatantra..all make sense & are very educational.

Personally, all this crap about going to temples, having pujas, what not to eat, fasting on certain auspicious days...is just that... CRAPOLA! Dont EVEN talk to me about fasting. My mother used to fast (& still does) for every darned rhyme or reason. She got very angry at me when I told her ``mom, the REAL reason you fast is cos you want to go on a diet...& then all of us have to suffer!``.:)

OK OK, I`ve taken the liberty of making broad sweeping generalisations about hindus. But all that a simpleton like me can do is draw from my own personal experience. Ofcourse other hindus on Chowk may have different experiences & opinions.

Talking about personal experiences; many yrs ago, I decided to send my daughter to Sanskrit classes & Indian culture appreciation for kids that was organised by the local hindu society in MidMichigan. You know..that ``immigrant guilt`` we feel:) I`m very ashamed to say this, but after 2-3 ``classes`` my daughter threw a HUGE tantrum. She REFUSED to go to those classes because they were ``BORING``! Alas, my daughter has inherited my mother`s stubbornness. I thought I had completely lost her to this EVIL western culture...until Sadna told me about Amar Chitra Katha (THANKYOU, Sadnaji).. Yup, when it comes to reading comic books my daughter doesnt mind learning about her ``mother culture``.

I`m rambling...so I`d better shutup..

well azadmunna and co, here is what happens in pakistan...........


‘What elections? Army HQ has already decided who will win’


As Musharraf mocks J&K polls, his nation yawns as it begins a drab countdown to a sham election


John Lancaster




Rawalpindi, October 8: Raja Zafar ul-Haq, a candidate in Pakistan’s general elections scheduled for Thursday, says he has reason to be skeptical of claims by President Pervez Musharraf that the contest will help pave the way for the restoration of ‘‘real democracy’’.

Three times in the last month, he said, the electricity has mysteriously failed just as he prepared to address campaign rallies, plunging the crowd into darkness. And even when things do go smoothly, he complained, Pakistan Television limits its coverage to shots of him speaking from the podium, ignoring cheering throngs of supporters.

‘‘It is not a level playing field,’’ said Haq, a former religion minister and a leader of the party of former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, who was ousted by Musharraf in a coup three years ago this month. ‘‘A kind of atmosphere has been created so that those who oppose the government have no chance to reach Parliament.’’

Such cynicism is a hallmark of elections in Pakistan, which for roughly half of its tumultuous 55-year history has been governed in some fashion by unelected men in army uniforms. In the view of many candidates and voters, Musharraf—aided by the Bush administration—is merely prolonging this dreary tradition, embracing the form of democracy but not its substance.

They note, for example, that whatever the outcome of Thursday’s voting, Musharraf will have the power to dismiss Parliament and sack the Prime Minister under constitutional amendments he imposed by fiat several months ago. The amendments also call for the creation of a new National Security Council that legitimises the Army’s role in governing.

The two biggest Opposition parties, meanwhile, have been crippled by the exile of their principal leaders—Sharif of the Pakistan Muslim League and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto of the Pakistan People’s Party—both of whom face arrest on corruption-related charges if they return.

Still other potential challengers have been barred from running because they do not hold four-year college degrees—a new requirement that disqualifies an estimated 98 per cent of the population—have defaulted on loans or have fallen behind on their utility bills.

‘‘Pakistan appears to be the only country in the world where candidates can be disqualified for unpaid utility bills,’’ said an interim report by the European Union, which has dispatched a large observer team to monitor the elections. ‘‘Several of the financial eligibility criteria are not only applicable to the potential candidates themselves, but also their spouses, dependents and business associates.’’

An afternoon in Rawalpindi, 10 miles southwest of Islamabad, suggests that many Pakistanis share the EU’s doubts. Despite high-profile races involving Haq and other prominent leaders, interviews with shoppers and store owners in the city’s old bazaar elicited little beyond expressions of disdain for the entire proceeding.

‘‘The General controls everything and he will engineer the results, for sure, for his benefit,’’ said Zamir Ahmad Shah, 50, looking up from his workbench in his closet-size goldsmith shop. ‘‘The lists of winners are already being prepared by army headquarters.’’

But the widespread view that the elections will change little in the way the country is governed does not seem to have seriously undermined Musharraf’s standing among ordinary Pakistanis.

Many Pakistanis appear to regard military rule as a necessary evil given the dismal track record of Pakistan’s civilian leaders, who are widely seen as corrupt and incompetent.

And although militant Muslim groups were angered by Musharraf’s embrace of the US war on terrorism and his subsequent cutoff of support for the Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan, many Pakistanis appear to have accepted the policy as the price of restoring the country’s economy through closer ties with the West.

Last week, for example, an opinion poll commissioned by the BBC—based on interviews with 2,827 Pakistanis in 200 towns and cities—found that 69 % of Pakistanis thought Musharraf had done a ‘‘good’’ or ‘‘somewhat good’’ job since coming to power in October 1999.

Although few analysts expect an overwhelming turnout on Thursday, some hold out hope that the contests could produce an incremental improvement in the nation’s political life, providing at least a forum for discussion and some degree of accountability.

‘‘Even a sham, bogus democracy is better than a totalitarian regime,’’ said a Western-trained academic in Islamabad who asked not to be identified.

Musharraf, this person added, ‘‘will have to have consensus of some kind. He can’t be as arbitrary.’’ (Los Angeles Times-Washington Post)

Idiot 12-head#83
By `gora` I donot mean merely the color of the skin, I mean what is propagated and highlighted by their media, their popular culture, their fashions, their social dynamics, their government, their literature, their history.

Those who donot make use of godgiven aqal and judge all morality, religion, politics and personal choices, even of food habits against goras current public and private choices taken as either standard of the modern god or standard of the modern devil, are all pretty stupid.

A guy dies and wakes up to find he is in hell. He`s really depressed as he stands in the processing line waiting to talk to an admittance counselor.

He thinks to himself ``I know I lead a wild life but I wasn`t that bad. I never thought it would come to this.`` Looking up he sees that it is his turn to be processed into hell. With fear and a heavy heart, he walks up to the counselor.

Counselor: What`s the problem, you look depressed?

Guy: Well, what do you think? I`m in hell.

Counselor: Hell`s not so bad, we actually have a lot of fun. Do you like to drink?

Guy: Sure, I love to drink.

Counselor: Well then, you are going to love Mondays. On Mondays we drink up a storm. You can have whiskey, rum, tequila, beer, whatever you want and as much a you want. We party all night long. You`ll love Mondays. Do you smoke?

Guy: Yes, as a matter of fact I do.

Counselor: You are going to love Tuesdays. Tuesday is smoke day. You get to smoke the finest cigars and best cigarettes available anywhere. And you smoke to your heart`s desire without worrying about cancer because you are already dead! Is that great or what? You are going to love Tuesdays. Do you do drugs?

Guy: Well in my younger days I experimented a little.

Counselor: You are going to love Wednesdays. That`s drug day. You can experiment with any drug you want and you don`t have to worry about overdoses or getting hooked because you are already dead. You are going to love Wednesdays. Do you gamble?

Guy: Yes, I love to gamble.

Counselor: You are going to love Thursdays because we gamble all day and night -- black jack, craps, poker, slots, horse races, everything! You are going to love Thursdays. Are you gay?

Guy: Uhh...no.

Counselor: Oh , you`re gonna hate Fridays...

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AzadBubu,

``Muslims are the most colour blind society``

Me think U no pakistan fellow...you india fellow.

You no read many, many chok story, haiN?! Punjabi papa say, gurl, you no marry black-black bihari felow. Marry white-red panjabi fellow only, mind it!

-------

``If there is any NON white group that challenged the Gora it is simple the followers of Mohommed be they themselves be Gora Yogoslavian Pathan Iranian Arabian ...``


Pathan:
First gora tell stupid pathan to grow beard, carry ak47,wear black pyjama and kill his own brother.
Then Gora tell stupid pathan ``you great, you world-class fighter``! Stupid Pathan believe.
Now stupid pathan no food, no house, no cloth, no country.
Now stupid pathan world-class beggar!


Iran:
Little better. Little food, little home and some country.
Maybe not for long. gora coming, irani sweating.


Arab:
You azad baccha, you Wrong here.
Gora tell, Arab do (where challenge, where, haiN???).

(you see world cup football mach??? gora beat arab 8-0.
best coach, no use - lazy arab felow no good play, no good think, no good fight, OK!)

me stop, you taking care,

------
P.S. you no sit and type. No put pressure on brain, ok!

Hamidm sahib(#52), I grew up on border where all those cows used to cross to pakistan paidal hi:-) I remember smugglers from the border areas used to buy old, infertile cows from other areas as pashu-wepaaris and walk them over accross the border after paying 50 Rs/- per cow to the BSF jawaans[that is long before the barbed wire...in those good old days BSF and Rangers used to drink imported whisky after putting their rifles aside right on the border and talk about movies] Most of these cows looked so sick, meatless, and old that we used to think that pakistanis must be really poor and hungry that had to eat the poor cows. I have to admit sanu tuhaade te bahut tars aunda si.

Pankaj:
[Basically you can do all the sins in the world and they will be forgiven if you believe in Jesus being the son of God. But if you dont believe in Jesus as son of God and born of ``virgin Mary``, then no matter how virtuous you are, you must go to hell. So it is not your Karma, ie deeds that decide where you go after death acc to Christian belief, but your faith. So Hitler will go to heaven(if he was a believer) while Gandhi is sure to end in hell acc to this logic. Belive me, explore any religion and you will end up with some absurdities].

This clearly shows your lack of understanding where the Christian faith is concerned, at least. And how d`you know that Hitler will go to heaven...as a Christian, I don`t even know whether I am going to heaven, and I am not responsible for the death of six million people. And it is not just through faith alone...that salvation is determined in the Christian faith. Just thought I`d point that out to you.

.......... i know it is not politically correct to repeat things like this, but i ran into a madman who was standing on the corner yelling `` ........ all religions are junk, garbage, drivel and sheer nonsense all the way through !.........no skins and layers to peel, silly nonsense all the wayto the bottom .......... there is no ``real`` religion, no redeeming value, no huqooq ul ibad, no hidden message, no nothing ! ...... just plain old junk perpetuated by men who were either evil, ambitious, crazy, looney or all of the above ..........whether you worship a god with an elephant nose, a shizophrenic old man who tried to kill his own son, a crazy man who claims to be the son of god or the man who rode a horse to heaven, you are all are nuts ............``

.......... the man was nuts! ........... we all know that the universe was created in six days and masturbation will make you go blind and pigs are filthy animals .............astaghfirullah!

re: DostMittar # 76

The good Man upstairs gave us each two things - a religion and a brain. It is unfair to expect any of our religions to supplant our brains.


PS: Always a pleasure to meet another admirer of the Buddha.

Dost-Mittar

``The only prophet, perhaps, who could not be a better insaan, I think, was Jesus Christ and this may simply be because I do not have enough dirt on him.
``
Then, obviously, Dost-Mittar sahab you haven`t read Bible carefully or have you? Well you might like to read Bible a little next time you stay in Holiday Inn. I can tell you one statement off the cuff. Have you heard of the fundamental belief of Christianity as eloquently put by Jesus : ``no one comes to God except through me`` (someone pls quote exact statement). Basically you can do all the sins in the world and they will be forgiven if you believe in Jesus being the son of God. But if you dont believe in Jesus as son of God and born of ``virgin Mary``, then no matter how virtuous you are, you must go to hell. So it is not your Karma, ie deeds that decide where you go after death acc to Christian belief, but your faith. So Hitler will go to heaven(if he was a believer) while Gandhi is sure to end in hell acc to this logic. Belive me, explore any religion and you will end up with some absurdities.

Eat whatever the hell you want, whenever you want. Just don`t touch my Mr. Chicken who is going to die of contented old age and well-deserved arthritis, in the company of an equally old and arthritic Mrs. Chicken. May the happily quacking couple quack in unison, long and forever.


re: t bhai # 68

There are times in our lives when we run into small little things, and realize that we have seen the truth. A truth truer than most other turths. That was the feeling I got as a kid when I came across the following words:

Ashtaadash puraneshu Vyashashya vachanadvayam:
Paropkaaraya punyaya, paapaaya parapidanam....

``In all his eighteen Puranas, Vyas says only two things: to help others is virtuous (punya) and to cause pain to others is sin (paap).``

That is the core message of all religion. When we strip away the junk of all religions, and find this message buried deep inside, we will know peace, and perhaps, God.

Best regards.

temporal: Is masturbation a negation of huqooq-e-Allah or huqooq-ul-Ebad?
The answers to all religious questions have been made fool-proof over centuries; fool-proof for fools but not enough fool-proof for intellectually challenged and curious mind. Do you really think that everything can be divided into a pair of opposites in parity forbidden (non-ovelapping) manner such as huqooq-e-allah and huqoor-ul-ebad, right and wrong, true and false, virtue and vice and dar-ul-am`n and dar-ul-harb. I suppose beyond matter and anti-matter, nothing is parity forbidden. The problem with Islam is not about eating pork or not srinking but it is a constant process of evaluaying every damn little aspect of life through the filter of dogma as sac already mentioned in post #17 (?).
second objection is the limits of practicing a religion publically in a definitely non-friendly environment. The limits are set through compromise, power politics and making sure that they do not produce a backlash. I do not like Hissidic Jews wearing certain kind of hats, black overcoats, long beards and weird haircut. But they have generally made themselves acceptable in NY. Similarly in time limited use of naqab or hijab will be acceptable provided the Islamic politics does not remain diametrically opposed to every aspect of western culture.
However, muslims making a case in the name of freedom to practice religion in public must offer same to other religions in their societies. That is certainly not the case, in the name of vulgarity or nudity. How can US take away the right from a women practicing pygmie religion of Kalahari desert. That religion does not ask covering upper body at all and some amazonian tribes do nto believe in covering at all. What right US has to allow muslims to wear hijab and pygmie not to wear anything? Will any Muslim society allow practitioner of pygmie religion amidst them? Now what are huqooq shuqooq to do for a complex and diverse world, given 20+ specialists at chowk alone of all that is important in the world of 21st century and 6 billion plus people?

Bharatvasi #67

Re Guardian`s article on Pakistan. Bush Jr may be pre-disposed to favor
Uncle Mush for a variety of reasons. However, the presidents that follow him may not be inclined to feel the same way.

That is the problem with one man or dictatorial rule. When an institution rules via the power of an elected body, authority is derived from that institution; so, if a foreign power wants to do something otherwise, then
the president can always defer and say ``my hands are tied`` if it is something he/she doesn`t like and can influence but doesn`t want to.
With a dictator, it is very easy to change or influence decisions a specific way and both the authority and responsibility falls on that person whether the outcome is good or bad.

In India, it is coalition politics in most of the states. Ofcourse, things don`t get done right away but it is very difficult to influence decision and keep it a secret for long. Sooner or later, a party squeals.

I don`t know why Mush doesn`t understand that dynamics.

temporal #73

the both sides of the scale should balance each other out comment was in regards to huqooq ul ibad and huqooq allah ! makes more sense there, na? :)

#69 by rabs:

listen to mama...she sounds sensible...as for both sides of the family balancing each other out...heheh...the balance should be in YOU...more than others!...search under temporal for `mahajirzadeh...` you will find recipe for oil free pakoras there;)...

lve,

t

temporal,

you remind me of my mom......she always reminds us of huqooq ul ibad vs huqooq allah ...`allah tho ma`ak kardega, banda shayad ma`af na kare`....allah is all forgiving..man is not.........my paternal side are like five time namazi sitting on the janamaz but horrible horrible people...like inlaws in indian movies!!! both sides of the scale should balance out...

profile

A vision of hope

By Beena Sarwar

If the phenomenon called Farida Faizullah is anything to go by, there is yet good reason to have hope in the education system that she is a part of

A wide, infectious smile and cropped hair with a floppy black fringe characterise the vivacious, slightly-built Farida Faizullah, making her seem not much older than the college girls she teaches English Literature to. Watching her in action during one of her packed classes at the Abdullah Government College for Women in Nazimabad, Karachi, is an inspiring sight.

Not for her the old-fashioned tedious podium-style lecture: Farida is rarely still, agilely moving through the classroom aisles that divide the room vertically into three sections. The 150 or so students, a sea of white uniforms with blue sashes, are kept on their toes as she throws out questions that challenge their comprehension of the text being taught. Farida`s area of specialisation is teaching language through literature, which falls within her overall specialisation of teaching English to speakers of other languages -- TESOL, in educators` jargon.

Music is an integral part of her lessons, and she teaches her students small, uplifting poems set to simple tunes they can easily memorise and sing along to. While some of the girls lead the song from the front of the class, the rest join in, hesitantly and softly at first, their voices rising as they gain confidence, clapping to keep time with the beat. And from the back of the class, Farida waves her white cane like a conductor directing a symphony orchestra. This white cane is, in fact, the only clue to the fact that she is a blind.

The students clearly adore her. ``She is the best teacher we have. Nothing I can say about her will be enough,`` says young Rabia Shah, her eyes lighting up. ``After being taught by her, I`ve forgotten all my previous teachers.``

The fact that Farida is a blind is secondary -- but her attitude to her `disability` is clearly an inspiration as well. ``From her we have learnt that a positive attitude to life is necessary,`` adds another student. ``Whatever the obstacles, you can overcome them if you try.``

Aside from teaching college students, a significant part of Farida`s time is spent on training, and sharing experiences, with fellow-teachers. Back in 1984, she was one of the founder-members of the Society of Pakistan English Language Teachers. ``When she first entered the classroom, I didn`t know she was. well, I don`t want to use the word `blind` for her, because she`s not like what one thinks a blind person would be,`` says a teacher from Mansehra, Rabia Sultana, who was in Karachi recently attending a course organised by SPELT. Rabia and her colleague Faiza Hina teach at the Agahi group of schools that is based in various village communities around Mansehra.

They were among a group of about twenty educationists, ranging from those new to the profession to head-teachers, from all over the country, who attended the three weeks that kick off two courses organised by SPELT: the year-long Certificate for Overseas Teachers of English (COTE), affiliated with Cambridge University, and the organisation`s own, indigenous course, the Practical Teacher Training Course (PTTC).

Farida herself always knew she wanted to teach. In 1979, after completing her Masters in English Literature from Karachi University -- which was when her eyesight deteriorated to the point of blindness -- she began teaching at Abdullah College, and was formally appointed a couple of years later. In terms of how she manages -- she prepares her notes in Braille, and also uses audio materials, in addition to visual aids that someone or other is always willing to help her sort out.

The various teacher training courses she has attended have honed her skills, and were sanctioned by the college administration -- like the year-long teacher training course at Allama Iqbal Open University in Islamabad (1988-89) , supported by the British Council and coordinated by University Grants Commission. Shortly afterwards, she was awarded another scholarship, again by the British Council, to study TESOL at the University of Leeds (1990-91). Innate modesty prevents her from divulging details such as the fact that she completed the course with a distinction and a citation for her thesis as `worth publishing` -- a colleague who went to Leeds the following year returned with this information.

At Abdullah College, where she is by now familiar with each kona chappa as she puts it, Farida has a network of close friends. Among them is Khalida Shaan Salimi of the Sociology Department, who admires Farida for several reasons, one of them being her beautifully colour-coordinated outfits. ``Every day we look to see what `matching` Farida has got on,`` she declares. Farida giggles in embarrassment, which only increases as Khalida continues, ``She is also one of the most thoughtful people I know, whenever there`s a birthday, Farida will remember, and give some beautiful token, a card or a gift. And she`s always the most social person, so full of fun. When the weather is nice, she`ll organise a picnic, or if there`s a new movie, she`ll get all of us together to go watch it.``

But it is not just Farida`s social skills that Khalida admires. ``Her classes are always jampacked,`` she says. ``You`ll hear stories about how students don`t attend classes in government colleges -- that will never be the case with Farida`s classes. And she teaches four courses, which is a lot.``

This, of course, also means that she touches the lives of several hundred students a year. Not to mention the dozens of teachers -- primary and secondary level -- who benefit from the shorter term courses she presents. ``I enjoy teaching,`` says Farida. ``The response of the students is very enthusiastic, and so is that of the teachers that I work with. I think if we continue like this, our education system can improve.``

As her optimism, confidence and vivaciousness continues to touch the people she works with, and if the phenomenon called Farida Faizullah is anything to go by, there is yet good reason to have hope in the education system that she is a part of.

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(aisha…’what is islam’ is too broad a concept to be painted in this narrow canvas…without being pernicious I will say a little on MY Islam)
____________________________________________________________

Thoughts on MY Islam

(Caveat: this is highly subjective---reader advised to do their own studying and thinking)

‘pehlay khuda, phir rasool: pehlay taa’leem phir tafheem, pehlay insaan phir musalmaan’----mahahirzadah
____________________________________________________________

My dear maulana sameerJB:

You incur the wrath of the ummi-umma being so outspoken…and though your intentions maybe noble the end result becomes murky.

What matters is NOT what one does to one’s self but what one does to others. This is the key to my understanding of religion. Any religion.

Mothers (substitute culture, land-dharti-environment) feed us values with a liberal dose of rituals baked with dogma. As we grow older we (ought to) learn to scan and filter it through reason.

All Muslims actions can be divided into two broad areas of ‘Haqooq-ul-Ibad’ and “Haqooq-Allah’… with the former getting precedence over the latter.

Continuing with your exaggerated claims maulana sahib I would say this. IF, a person is a good human being, a good ‘insaan’, vis-à-vis other folks, then it does not matter what s/he does in his/her personal life. What they eat, drink, do or not do affecting their person only is a mater for them and their Maker.

All religions teach us to be a better human being.

What they do to others is and should be a cause for public concern. To repeat, if they look after their family, their neighbours, community and city and state and country, obey the laws, pay taxes….all activities that we can lump together under ‘good human being’ then whatever they do to their person should be between them and their god/s.

regards,

temporal


(aisha…’what is islam’ is too broad a concept to be painted in this narrow canvas…without being pernicious I will say a little on MY Islam)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts on MY Islam

(Caveat: this is highly subjective---reader advised to do their own studying and thinking)

‘pehlay khuda, phir rasool: pehlay taa’leem phir tafheem, pehlay insaan phir musalmaan’----mahahirzadah

My dear maulana sameerJB:

You incur the wrath of the ummi-umma being so outspoken…and though your intentions maybe noble the end result is murky at best.

What matters is NOT what one does to one’s self but what one does to others. This is the key to my understanding of religion. Any religion.

Mothers (substitute culture, land-dharti-environment) feed us values with a liberal dose of rituals baked with dogma. As we grow older we (ought to) learn to scan and filter it through reason.

All Muslims actions can be divided into two broad areas of ‘Haqooq-ul-Ibad’ and “Haqooq-Allah’… with the former getting precedence over the latter.

Continuing with your exaggerated claims maulana sahib I would say this. IF, a person is a good human being, a good ‘insaan’, vis-à-vis other folks, then it does not matter what s/he does in his/her personal life. What they eat, drink, do or not do affecting their person only is a mater for them and their Maker.

All religions teach us to be a better human being.

What they do to others is and should be a cause for public concern. To repeat, if they look after their family, their neighbours, community and city and state and country, obey the laws, pay taxes….all activities that we can lump together under ‘good human being’ then whatever they do to their person should be between them and their god/s.

regards,

t

What is islam? That is a very complex question, very interesting indeed. The message of islam is very subtle and beyond mere symbols - there is a lot more which needs to be internalised. However, within pakistan islam has been abused to such an extent that it is redifining what a rogue state is. Please check this article in todays Guardian available at

http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,806613,00.html

the synopsis of this is

(a)If George Bush`s ``war on terror`` were remotely rational, or even roughly reasoned, then its next target might be Pakistan, not Iraq.

(b)Pakistan, or elements of Pakistan`s intelligence and military services, created al queada and Mullah Omar was a Pakistani creation.

(c)Pakistan is still the prime, deliberate exporter of terrorism in other directions, into Kashmir and Gujarat.

(d)By most measures, Pakistan, with its ruptured economy, unstable politics and military government is a state both failed and rogue that is over-ripe for regime change.

(e)Only fair, unrigged elections can bring the sort of regime change Pakistan really needs and stymie the threat of escalating US interventionism. If Gen Musharraf reneges and the election is stolen, the Pakistani people will know who to blame.


Dear readers please note what this false islamisation of pakistan has done to pakistam. That is perhaps what the author is alluding to in her article.

It is amusing to see this quite reasonable ``no pig eating`` rule
being mixed in with broader and more important cultural issues.

Personally, I think people should eat what they want to, and if communities dont
want to eat Pork or beef, well, that is just fine. There are plenty
of vegan folk and Orthodox Jews around in the West and no one is having
any problem. People who find these rules funny and insist that they are more rational (So Why not eat a dogs or monkeys?) are simply
displaying their lack of respect for others non-harmful behavior in a demeaning way.

A complete separate issue is the inability of certain religous/cultural
groups to assimilate with the local culture, invest in education,
import of hate-filled
ideologies etc. That has nothing to do with pork or even hijab.

Plenty of orthodox jews wander around wearing little caps (kippot)
or bits of string (tallis) and some spend an inordinate amount of time fussing over food items (ANd you thought the Jains were bad!).
Nobody gives a damn because they are
seen as committed and educated citizens and as respectful of
folks other than from their own community.

somebody is mention Gadarene Swine, haiN?

Layman,

{{The VHP/Bajrang Dal people are propagating that `go moothra` can cure various diseases, a colleague of mine once saw a guy take a `shower` bath right under a cow urinating on the street. So, if you think that (at least some) Hindus dont drink cow urine, it is you who are stupid. }}

Thankyou for contributing to my knowledge. Another reason why I think hinduism is going down the tubes. Instead of propagating hindu philosophy, those idiots are expounding the idiotic aspects of our religion. I think BJP should also expound the virtues of marijuana. Most sadhus I`ve come across carry a chillum & take deeeep drags of hashish...hari-om! Now THAT would be more exciting than go-moothra:)

hamidm,
please please dont send those rats from Pakistan to India. Some hindus will start worshipping them.

satyavadi,

I`m guessing you are Jain. Do you guys use leather? I mean do you wear shoes that are made of skins of slaughtered animals? Also, why is there a prohibition to eat potatoes & onions or anything that grows underground? Maybe Mahavir (pbuh) should have also put restrictions on eating asli ghee:)

Muslims donot eat pigs? Big problem with this guilt trip in Islam and all. The joke will be, let a few goras come out with a few books on how bad it is to eat pigs and everyone will extol the ancient wisdom of Islam in forbidding it long ago. Or let the Western press make a tour of the foul smelling acres of pig farms in the SE US and talk of the (nonexistent) hygiene there and immediately Islam will become a religion which extolled the environmental and antiseptic principle 1400 years before the whites and will be a reason to be proud of one religion because then even the goras will have to agree, yes.

Or Muslims donot eat pigs? OK, so lets say something bad about Hindus. Why I wonder? What is the connection? Did Hindus ask Muslims not to eat pigs? Its a sure sign of intellectual poverty when people cannot discuss their own pigs without dragging in others cows. You got your own country to eat what you want so stop this incessant whining about hindoos and get on with your lives.

As for the efficacy of beef, just let a few more goras come out with books on how beefeaters are more prone to alziehmers or talk of the horrific conditions of immigrant labor in beef factories in the American South or the offal which is fed to the cattle to increase yield and bolster the capitalist bottomline on corporate beef farms and all will fall in line with beef boycotts, thats a gora thing, so its fine. Oprah just has to say the word.

As for those who abstain from beef, the PETA based in the US has to raise a storm about cruel treatment of cattle in India and for a leather boycott in the West for you to realise you are doing no good to gau ma by making a show of not eating her.

As for cow urine, just let yet another set of goras apply for patents on it for anti-aging or as a fountain of youth or whatever and folks will rush to put their 401(k) into that pharmaceutical`s stock. Until then, sorry, its those weird Hindoos talking of wierd things, no no I am not one of those.

The goras too think it almost cannibalistic to eat what they think are intelligent creatures llike horses for example and look down on the unhygienic food habits of other goras like the Brits, who enjoy things like blood and offal puddings. Folks take care to choose the appropriate goras as your guide if you wish, but make your own decisions and stop knocking others`.

re: layman

{So, if you think that (at least some) Hindus dont drink cow urine, it is you who are stupid. }

...i`ve often tried explaining that there are as many hindus who drink cow urine as there are muslims who might follow some mullahs` instructions to drink camel urine...there are anecdotal news reports to support both claims...

Ayesha:

Introspection is a good thing but sometimes it is a trap. As Allama Iqbal has put it ``Daam hum - rang - e - zameen``.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/10/08/op.htm#4

LadyAna #40

My basic point was that the only meat of the pig is haram, and the rest of it is allowed, which is proven by the post of fiqh us sunnah....which is quoting a sahih hadith...I disagree with you in that quran is the only conclusive evidence and we should disregard all hadith, because some things we would not know without the hadith..for example...in the quran, only the command to pray is made, not the method of praying...how to make the actual prayer, we learn from the prophet (saw)...which is brought to us by hadith....i agree that there are many fabricated/weak hadith out there, but there is a science to evaluate all these....and bukhari and muslim have compiled a selection of the strong one...the difference between bukhari/muslim vs hanafi/malik, etc..is that the latter derived opinions based on hadith..and the former just compiled a selection of strong ones..i agree that the example in my previous post was speculative based on the assumption that the rasul (saw) allowed the use of tanned skin of haram animals, but the point i was making was not...
as for making new laws that fit today`s society rather than following some thigns that are totally not applicable today, i definitely agree....there are many situations todya tht did not exist back then..and scholars need to make laws applicable to today`s society....however, a lot of modern day scholars seem more like encyclopedias of hadith, etc..rather than intellectuals who could derive new laws..

Does someone know if Jang/News websites have been hacked twice this week.

(This is a question)

Layman #56 quoting shankar ``Worse than that, some stupid Pakistanis actually believe we hindus drink cow urine!``
Its worse than you think. Given that drinking water is often not as pure as perrier in both India and Pakistan, much of the population in both countries also drink solid wastes from cows (and humans, and presumably wild pigs as well) that has been gently stirred into the drink by mother nature. That is how people get typhoid, e.g.

shankar #11:
``India is OVERRUN by these wretched, mangy creatures!. You step on their cowpies & they block traffic as if they own the frikking road.``
This is mostly due to the owners of these cows letting them graze (eat paper and rubbish) on the streets, as they are possibly too poor to provide the cows with proper feed. It is upto the municipal/city corporations to ban cows on the streets (just like they have banned bicycles and tongas on some streets) and enforce the ban strictly. There is nothing related to religion here.

``Worse than that, some stupid Pakistanis actually believe we hindus drink cow urine!``
Its true, isnt it? There was a programme last week in India on Ripley`s Believe it or Not showing Hindus in North India sprinkling cow urine on their heads and having a sip - one guy speaking to the cameras in English saying that he had a drink everyday. The VHP/Bajrang Dal people are propagating that `go moothra` can cure various diseases, a colleague of mine once saw a guy take a `shower` bath right under a cow urinating on the street. So, if you think that (at least some) Hindus dont drink cow urine, it is you who are stupid.

Aisha - interesting column, plus you have managed to irritate a certain somebody, which can only be good.

Scout - Judaism/Islam may be the best thing that happened to pigs in NJ, but...er...have you heard of Cincinnati chicken?

Subroto #53 If you tell me that this article brings home the bacon, I shall buy a pig in a poke and, without bothering to read the article, shall grunt a hearty congratulations to the writer. Some day, when pigs get wings, I may even read the article.

Finally an article which brings home the bacon, but will the pig headed people read it? Or will they be rasher than they are? And don`t anybody say that it was sow sow effort. Lets not be ham handed here folks and avoid writing under the influence of swine.

btw any cricket fans here? Why is an opening batsmen called a salami ballebaaz?

....one of the recurring laments i heard this summer in pakistan was that the price of beef had gone up because of the one millon troops massed on both sides of the border ........... it appears that there were a lot of cows being smuggled over the border to feed the meat lovers in pakistan ..... these anmals are now stuck on the wrong side of the border .......... if we could herd up all the rats in lahore, including qazi hussain and mullah fazloo, and send them down to tamiland or uttam pradish we could feed the starving hindoos and clean up the sewers at the same time ...... a win win all around ......

haram ko maro haram say
muslim ko maro iman say
kabab ko maro sharab say
naqab uthaiye shabab say
juNbish hay lazim her uzu kay liye
bbq pork hay sir`f ba-wuzu kay liye

ladyana:

don`t u think -- aisha`s IS gentle -- if u consider Shanker`s nailing the same point with a four ton hammer.

dost-mittar #45,

well said.

my dear dost-mittar ji -- the peace-maker --

u r a always a voice of moderation between the `rightist` and the `leftist` extremes –

I have to agree with you that preference for NO meat is NOT always based on religious edicts -- it`s more to do with an aesthetic choice -- or cholestrophobia question -- we Muslims are carnivore -- yet one of my daughters is a vegetarian --

the first sandwich after landing in US i ordered was -- ham sandwich -- but it tasted so bland -- that was the first and the last ham sandwich I ever ate -- I used to love bacon in the breakfast -- then this cholesterol business surfaced and I had to switch to `turkey bacon` --

I tried to love lean pork chop -- but never felt it could compete with a filet mignon -- never felt like cooking one on our grill or deep fry in our fryer -–

ah that delicious pepperoni on pizza -- a yum yum -- I had to abandon albeit reluctantly for vegetarian pizza – u of course know why -- that darn cholesterol.

so our dietary eccentricities are not always religion based -- though at times -- one cannot rule out -- a subliminal mullah – or a virtual priest -- straddling the conscience -- saying -- khabardaaaar -- NOooooo...

hari-21

[If Allah created all things, which would include (pigs) then how can Islam contradict by denying pig meat to muslims. I dont understand.]

Allah also created cats and dogs and the hindus as well.....should we ;)

Dont know about Islam and pigs or Hindus and beef, but my religion has everything to do with not eating meat. Nothing absurd about that.

Islam is not whatever you think without boundry conditions. Let`s begin with getting up in the morning. The mouthwash containing 10-20 percent alcohol is not Islam, toilet paper is not Islam, shaving is not Islam, taking shower with saponified haram fat in soaps and shampoos is not Islam, after shave containing alcohol is not Islam, breakfast with bacon strips is not Islam. Listening to `its getting hot in here........` while going to work is not Islam, saying good morning to workers - mostly pucca kafirs - is not Islam, looking at coworkers without hijab is not Islam, smelling their perfume is not Islam,.............................flirting with female chowk interlocutors behind the scene on chaathouse is not Islam,............sexy undergarments is not Islam.
It is lot easy to write about what it is not than writing about what it is. Just believe in it, or don`t, if all you hear allah hoo,.......allah hoooo,............allah hooooooooooooooo from a meditating sufi in his retreat.

re temporal #18:

``?...and we cannot bbq them either...``

Are you sure? Notice how Busharraf has disappeared although Urstruly is back with a vengeance. Now only if you could fit Jay into a Foreman grill...... :)

later
-sac

#39 nasah
>>in a femininely gentle column

Gentle? LOL.

Science has proven religion to be just a bunch of stories and superstition (atleast to me), but pigs... theres this sociological conditioning you go through growing up in Pakistan whereby you develop disgust for the animal...so no question eating it for me..but not bcoz of religion..its kind a like eating rats i imagine

Re # 28 mbenzenglish

>>GOD IS CLOSER THAN NECK ALSO MEANS PRIOR TO SLAUGHTER ASSASSINATION

LOL!!! U r too much benzoil... prior to slaughter, assassination.

But u r right, ``halal`` as a term is not properly understood, and hadith and Qur`an are not meant to be parroted or learnt by rote. We need to apply logic and reasoning. Surah Fatiha`s ``Put us on the path of those who do Right`` is also not understood.. just like all the rest of the Surahs. What the ``Right`` path is not understood. Everyone has their own lousy interpretations, make things more complex than they really are. That`s humankind 4 u.

Rabs, the reason I asked for an explanation was precisely bcoz I knew that u would not be able to provide a definite source. There are many Islamic places on the internet, many books written, many scholars on every road, who have their own explanations, justifications, and interpretations of what Islam says. Beyond the Qur`an, there is NO conclusive proof of what exactly the Qur`an says. There are numerous aalim quoting even more numerous hadith, from a wide array of schools of thought. Who to believe? It is like u go to a supermarket, and everyone is touting their brand of cereal as the best - calcium fortified, vitamin A, vit D, vit K, elixir of youth, etc.. All the products have the same function - satisfy yr hunger. None of them is really going to make u live any longer, when u come to think of it. U can get out of the supermarket and be hit by a bus, and what good did all that lovely vitamin K do u then? But if u consume it, it will atleast help u live healthier, however long u live.

Same with interpretations, justifications, and whatever else pass for excuses for human actions. U need to take UNVERIFIABLE hadith and similar sayings with a grain of salt, and not quote unscrupulously from it as the last word on the subject, because some naive person might actually believe it to be the unshakable truth. Whatever Sahih Bukhari, Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik etc etc said, well and good. They were all very respectable intelligent thinking people, we all respect and look up to them, no question about it. But they also did not have all the final answers. They used their logic, their reasoning, to come up with whatever they thought best, in the light of what was revealed in the Qur`an, to suit their times and the needs of the people of that era.

This is what today`s scholars need to do. Keeping in mind the day and age and circumstances and conditions and resources of people TODAY, we need proper guidance from the right people, we need our scholars to go beyond what medieval laws have been followed to date, refine on those learnings or reject them and come up with new solutions within the context of a good Muslim way of life, and apply them to the modern age and its complexities.

While all this learning will not help us live longer, it will help us live easier. Beyond following the 5 pillars of deen, we need assistance in our daily lives.. how to live each day in a healthy manner, that will keep us sane, preserve our dignity, our morals, our principles, all of which stem from our practice of Islam. We want to be able to reconcile deen with duniya on a continous basis. Like supermarket cereals get updated with new vitamins and preservatives every so often - to improve the flavor of the basic bland ingredients of wheat and corn, to provide variety in life, to improve health, to give people a reason to eat corn and wheat and not switch to barley and oats etc.. - so too, the practice of Islam needs to be constantly reviewed, revised, if needed modified - ie. all while retaining the same basic framework of Qur`an/Rasool/Yaum-il-Aakhir/Shahadah/Salat/Zakat/Sawm/Hajj - so that it is more palatable and more readily accepted and practiced by the average Muslim who needs to balance his life with ways of the rest of the world.

I have a request. For topics like Cemendaur has posted, that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand, perhaps they can use the ``Unplugged`` forum.. and post under something like ``Current Events``?

Ansari #35

I actually heard this from someone who referred Fiqh Us Sunnah as the source. I have to double check it when I get home. I totally agree with you that anything we say should be connected to authentic sources, and I guess I erred in posting that without the looking/checking the references...From what I have searched on the net till now, it seems water bags of skin from carrion were used, and in the same paragraph it states that only the flesh of carrion, flesh of swine were forbidden for eaten..not the tooth, nail, etc....I`m thinking maybe this is where the confusion happened...anyway, I will check it when I get home..
also, when i refer to difference of opinion, I am referring to it at a scholarly level....

i found fiqh us sunnah online and this is the daleel i have found for pigskin being allowed...(didn`t find the other bit tho, i`ll keep looking for it, however i think the confusion was with the carrion)...

Volume 1, Page 7b: Bones, horns, claws, fur, feathers, and skin and so on of dead animals
All of these are considered pure. Concerning the bones of dead animals, az-Zuhri said, ``I have met some scholars of the preceeding generations who used such objects for combs and pots for oil, and they did not see anything wrong in that.`` This is related by al-Bukhari. Said Ibn `Abbas, ``The client of Maimunah was given a sheep as charity, and it died. The Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, passed by it and said, `Why do you not remove its skin, treat it and put it to use?` She said, `It is dead` (i.e., it has not been slaughtered properly). He said to her, `Only eating it is forbidden.``` This is related by the group. Ibn Majah attributes the incident to Maimunah and her client. Al-Bukhari and an-Nasa`i do not mention treating the skin. It is reported from Ibn `Abbas that he recited: ``Say (O Muhammad): ``In all that has been revealed to me, I do not find anything forbidden to eat; if one wants to eat thereof, unless it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or swine flesh...`` (al-An`am 145). Then he said, ``What is forbidden is its meat. As for its skin, skin used for waterskins, teeth, bones, fur and wool, they are permissible.`` This is narrated by Ibn Munzhir and Ibn Hatim. Similarly, its rennet and milk are considered pure. This is supported by the fact that when the companions conquered Iraq, they ate the cheese of the Magians which was made from rennet, although their slaughtered animals were considered the same as `dead animals.` It is confirmed from Salman al-Farsi that when he was asked about cheese, clarified butter and pelts, he said, ``What is permissible is what Allah made permissible in His book. What is forbidden is what Allah made forbidden in His book. What he omits, He has pardoned for you.`` It is well-known that he was being asked about the cheese of the Magians, as Salman was `Umar`s deputy in Mada`in, Iraq.

SO Islam is good to pigs in a way same as Hinduism for cows. What about the poor cats? Whats going to save them from the Koreans??

-- ``Finally a good article from AFS. Its time all of us started criticising the bs of our own religions than feeling ``holier than thou``.

Hindus dont eat beef! It is the most ridiculous, arcane, stupid aspect of our religion.`` (Shanker the Great)

Dear Shanker -- the questions Aisha is asking her brethren -- in a femininely gentle column -- u asked YOUR brethren -- in four punching sentences! --

bravo for the bluntest brevity!!

hasan

rabs #24

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. Though, I`d appreciate it if you would quote your sources. For example, when you mention the sahabah using pigskin for their waterbags, where did you read this?

Please don`t misunderstand me. It`s just that there`s quite a bit of information going around in the name of Islam which is not true and this only serves to distance people from the religion. At a time when everybody is rushing to Islam, either to attack it or educate themselves of it, I think it is the responsibility of the Muslims to be a resource, both of strength and erudition. And that is only possible with a clear understanding of the truth, keeping in mind that opinions and speculations are no substitute for it.

Sincerely,

Aamir Ansari

mbenz #28
ok this time...seriously i dont get what ur saying..i`m having a hard time getting what was meant in your post..so could you please clarify....
are you saying that what i have said is allowed, is actually not allowed....if you do more research, you`ll find that there is actually a difference opinion on this issue......
but plz clarify anyway

This is a hilariously beautiful article. No mean achievement. Takes talent Thank you so much for a good read.

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Friends of South Asia
presents
Free screening of
Aik Thee Nanee
(A Granny for all seasons)

Video presentation of an Urdu/Hindi play


By Shahid Nadeem,
followed by Q&A with the Playwright

When: Saturday, October 12, at 5 pm.
Where: Room 300, Building 300, Behind Main Quad, Stanford University




in Collaboration with
EKTA (http://www.ektaonline.org),
DOSTI (http://www.stanford.edu/group/dosti/),
3rdI (http://www.thirdi.org)
Koshish Foundation (http://www.koshish.org)
& Urdu Acdemy


The event is FREE and all are welcome to attend. A small donation to meet costs and organizational expenses is requested. Sliding scale $2-$10.


Synopsis of the Play
--------------------
``A Granny for all seasons`` by Pakistani playwright Shahid Nadeem was
written in 1992. It was inspired by the true story of two remarkable
actor sister of the South Asian subcontinent, Zohra Segal and Uzzra Butt.
They both started their careers in late 1930s and worked with the
legendary theatre and film personality Prithavi Raj Kapoor in Bombay. The
two sisters, who belonged to Muslim nobility of Northern India, created a
sensation in British India for adopting acting and dancing as a career.
In the late 40s, their careers were violently disrupted by the partition
of India. Uzra moved to Pakistan with her husband, but Zohra decided to
stay in India and pursue her acting and dancing career, working with great
dancer Uday Shankar- brother of Sitar maestro Ravi Shankar. There wasn`t
much use of Uzra`s acting talent in Pakistan where performing arts were
regarded as anti-Islamic. She abandoned her acting career and became a
housewife, until Shahid`s Ajoka Theatre rediscovered her in 1984. Since
then Uzra has been a regular and leading member of Ajoka and has appeared
on television as well. Zohra is a leading theatre, TV and film actor in
India. In 1993, the two sisters starred in Granny, acting together for the
first time since their separation at the time of Partition. The play has
been performed in Pakistan, India and the UK, to great acclaim.

The Director
------------

Shahid Nadeem is a leading playwright and Television / theatre director.
He has been associated with Pakistan Television as a producer, program
manager and general manager. He has a number of highly successful TV
serials to his credit including `Neeley hath` (1989), `Visaal` (1990),
`Zard Dopehr`(1993) and `Aan` (1995). He is also a human rights activist
and has worked at the International Secretariat of Amnesty International.
He has also been associated with the BBC and Zee Network. He has published
two collections of his plays titled `Khasman Khanian` and `Teesri Dastak`.

FOSA
http://frinendsofsouthasia.org
--------------------------
The mission of the ``Friends of South Asia`` is to achieve a peaceful,
prosperous, and hate-free South Asia. The group works towards a
demilitarized, nuclear-free South Asia.

Direction to the Venue
----------------------
http://tour.stanford.edu/cgi/locate.prl/35.7/jmlt

From 101
1. Take University Avenue towards Stanford till you reach the Oval,
where you can park.
2. Then walk towards the left of the Main Quad and enter Lausen Mall
3. Continue straight and take right on Escondidio Mall at the Watch
Tower.
4. Building 300 is just at the corner (see the map).

...so many people wrestling with pigs on this board...

I don’t think that the topic of discussion in this article is the culinary habits, dressing or facial hairs of Muslims. People like Ayesha are caught in a dilemma that is rather imposed on them. It is the dilemma that Muslims in the West are facing right now. It is the question that they are asking themselves as to what demeanor they should adopt so that they appear less menacing and more friendly to the West where they live in.

Frankly, the people (Muslims in this case) who live in their native lands and who are protesting right now against the global colonialism do not give a damn about how comfortably the Muslims are living in West. What do they care if Muslims here are profiled because of their race, fingerprinted, or quarantined into concentration camps. What do they care….those who have lost the sovereignty of their nations, being ruled by puppet despots, and being treated like dogs. Would they care?

And frankly, the West doesn`t care either. You were never one of them and never will be. All the lessons learnt during the racial segregation, McCarthyism, quarantine of Japanese Americans, and civil liberties movements have been put aside. Lets face it that, mass deportations are just another terrorist`s attack away. The suffering of a small segment of society does not measure much as compared to the financial benefits that global colonialism will eventually rake in. Lets accept the fact that this is the area where the current administration or any administration will keep on drawing its strength for a while. Lets accept the fact that this change in social attitudes is not particular to North America but there is a general consensus in Europe as well that the migration should stop; and those who have already gotten in are being looked at with utter contempt. I think a time has passed to decide whether eating a pig is a good idea or not or is it good to wear a shalwar or take it off ;)

It is most likely that the current administration will assume office for the second term because right now people are not ready for a change – it is ``idiot we know is better than idiot we don’t`` kind of thing. Which means that the social changes that are taking place right now are likely to continue and strengthen.

But the situation is not that bleak either. Lets accept the fact that the era of mass migration of knowledge workers from Pakistan and Arab world in particular and from Muslim world in general to the West has come to an end. In other words it means that the brain drain has eventually stopped. In near future in those lands a greater number of educated knowledge workers will be asking their governments for jobs and social benefits; and not only that but political and legal reforms as well. And in case the deportations of Muslims start happening then a flux of greater number of people with their knowledge and skills and an experience of living under open societies will definitely give the static societies of the Muslim world the boost that they always needed.

A slow and subtle change in Western societies is also taking place. It is a long- term process but the wheel has set into motion. Please look in the local bookshops where one could hardly find a book about Islam or Muslims a year ago, now they have 10s or 100s of titles on the subject. And the amazing thing is that if a year ago if 8 out of 10 titles were based on anti-Muslim bigotry, now 8 out of 10 are based on objective analysis of the subject. Which means that a genuine curiosity is emerging and people are demanding the truth. The era of anti-Khomeiniism is eventually coming to an end. At this crucial moment the question whether to pooh or not to pooh has become not secondary and not even tertiary but as a matter of fact it has lost its meaning. One has to have an open mind and open eyes to have this vision.

Hey arjun_m
Tater chips r bad coz they (apparently) contain acrylamide. Expect Ur local McD to be sued for giving cancer on top of making people obese. If chips r fried in vege oil `steda lard, they R OK.

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LadyAna #25 - can`t locate the source of that off the top of my head..but i`ll try to find it...until then, i found this bit:

Making Use of the Skin, Bones, and Hair of the Animal

The prohibition concerning the dead animal is limited to the eating of its flesh. One can—in fact, one should—make use of its skin, horns, bones and hair, for throwing them away is a waste, and waste is not permitted. Concerning this, Ibn `Abbas narrated: The freed maid-servant of the Prophet`s wife, Maymunah, was given a sheep, and it died. The Prophet (peace be on him) passed by its carcass and said, `Why did you not take its skin to be tanned and use it?` They replied, `But it is deed.` The Prophet (peace be on him) said, `What is prohibited is eating it.` (Reported in all the authentic collections of ahadith excepting that of Ibn Majah)
The Prophet (peace be on him) made it clear that the way to purify the skin of a dead animal is to tan it. He is reported to have said, ``The tanning of the skin is its slaughtering,`` (Reported by Abu Daoud and al-Nisai) meaning that just as slaughtering makes the eating of the flesh of a sheep or cow halal, likewise tanning makes the use of the skin halal. He also said, ``Tanning removes its impurity,`` (Reported by al-Hakim.)
And ``If the skin is tanned, it is purified.`` (Reported by Muslim and others.)
The application of these latter ahadith is quite general, including the skin of the dog or the pig. This was the opinion of the jurists of the Zahiri school, of Abu Yusuf, the pupil of Abu Hanifah, and of al-Shawkani. Sawdah, the wife of the Prophet (peace be on him), said ``One of our sheep died, so we tanned its skin and used it as a waterskin, putting dates in it to sweeten the water. We used it until it wore out.`` (Reported by al-Bukhari and others.)

>>the sahabah (ra) used to carry their water in water bags made out of pigskin...

pls. elaborate on this.. anyone

What??? No Kashmir?? No India?? Yeh Kya?

Will the Real Sarwari please stand up, please stand up please stand up???

:)

Kidding. The actual article basically went way over my head, but that`s okay. Most things dealing with religion do. Not the fault of the author there...

interesting article....my real reaction to it hasn`t really sunk in...some true points stated..definitely correct in how many muslims today act/function...however a lot of what you are saying is cultural...specifically prevalent to desi culture...you wont` see a lot of the misconceptions in other cultures..(in some arabs for example)..

just wanted to make a side point about `thiamine monosaturate` -- don`t really know what that is..i`m assuming it is a pig derivative of some sort...muslims today make a big deal about things like this (are you allowed to eat this, etc etc), have big debates on these very individual/personal choice issues and ignore the misery that the world is in...so i agree with that..but i just wanted to point out that in some of these things are really misconceptions and others have a difference of opinion which in some cases is very convincing..:
a lot of ingredients today come from god knows where...the substance is soo broken down and only a distinct chemical compound extracted, that who knows what it is when it is actually used (except a 100 character long chemical formula of some sort). one thing for sure though it is not pig / cat /human hair / etc.....this is a valid islamic opinion, and for those who will debate with me on this, the best example i can give is that of vinegar...before vinegar becomes vinegar , what is it? alcohol...however, alcohol is forbidden, and vinegar - the state after - is not.......
so, to kill yourself over these things is a pure waste of intellectual energy..seriously, there are bigger problems in the world.

another side point....i know this was probably (hopefully) meant in sarcasm, but unfortunately a lot of people do think/act like this when referring to pigs...i think that is really a desi muslim cultural thing too...i too get a little eeked out when i think of a bag trimmed in pig hide, but the fact is that is perfectly allowed....the only thing of the pigs that was forbidden to humans was the `lahm` or meat....not pig hide....the sahabah (ra) used to carry their water in water bags made out of pigskin...

Hi Aisha,
Ur writing style is a bit bizarre. To wit:
Halal? No its not some kind of genius. Its autism of a kind. An involuntary madness that compels them to take up bad words as arms.

Huh? Where shall I begin? I cud tell U that autism is not ``madness``.
Halal is not ofcourse genius, Genius. It`s a concept.

Morality has everything to do with what U eat. Why not eat a human baby if U cud. U dont coz Ud end up in jail or coz its immoral? Why not eat dogs? Some people do.

If pigs R dirty so r chickens which peck at their own waste. But pigs like many dogs are smart animals.

Pig fat is bad for U. Bacon tastes good coz its mostly saturated fat. Heart attack city.

U think Ur maker is a she?! Ur a weird kinda muslim.

shankar #11

I am speaking for myself. I avoid beef or any other meat for ``humane`` reason.

My daughter`s american teachers(therapists) are all vegetarians and some even ``vegans`` avoiding milk, etc.

Some of my vietnamese friends(buddhists) are also vegetarians.

There is always a rime/reason for things; not everyone thinks your way.
It doesn`t have to be religion, you know!

If Allah created all things, which would include (pigs) then how can Islam contradict by denying pig meat to muslims. I dont understand.

but umm.. ya, what r thiamine monosaturates? (seriously)... still lolling.... and frankly, I think u`ve already left Islam coz ur guiltless...lol... try Buddhism next. It`ll help get rid of some of the anger ;)

sac # 17:

ever wonder the real hogs have two legs and specialise in espousing hatred, intolerance and parochialism and more intolerance and hatred in the guise of religion?...and we cannot bbq them either...

...t

The article confuses choice with process. The Muslim mind tends to filter everything through religion. Its a complex maze starting with the Quran, Hadith, the 4 Imams with culture thrown in for extra credit. Discarding that whole process in favor of personal comfort may make one proclaim one`s religion as a `national religion` but does little to make the individual steps in the process more rational and `user-friendly`.

later
-sac

warpster - muslims do not `not consume` pork, because it is unclean...they don`t consume it because Allah forbade it....is there anywhere where it is said `Pork is forbidden because it is unclean, etc etc`` ..no its not...modern science has discovered a health aspect behind this, but this should not be confused with why it isn`t eaten in the first place...

OUCH!! lol. What an article!! Still rolling on floor laughing...

Good one Aisha! Gets u at the jugular and then some... LOLOLOL...

Sorry for using your board. I just wanted to point out that Shaheen Sehbai`s South Asia Tribune is writing about Bilal Musharraf`s Chowk submissions.

http://www.satribune.com/archives/oct7_13_02/opinion_bilalmusharraf.htm

SWINE OR SUPINE

Another spineless gutless verbiage from another educated pakistani . Instead of facing the reality of what islam is today, boldly declaring and trying to change some of the practices of islam like jiahd is killing of kafirs, heres is an expat pakistani collecting the secular values she has acquired and trying to palm them of as asal islamic values. Only aspect she exposes is the inborm fatwafobia, the burden of every pakistani that prevents any kind of reform of the pak society.

As the thousand storm out of the pak mdrasas seeking out the kafirs, hindus in temples or christians in mosques, here is an educated pakistani turning a blind eye to the guiding principles of islam to the most of pakistanis, the notion of jihad, the killing of kafirs.

Simply pathetic, a shear waste of the chowk space.

Actually some of the versions of Islam I`ve seen worldwide are fairly easy and low on the (more publicised) guilt trip angle. Concept of religion as a means to enable societies to let their hair down every now and then comesup. So why then do we consider Islam to be stern, joyless, dark, dank?

The Central Asian Islam used to rock, maybe still does, try to keep up with the footwork of their dances. The festivals in the now Islamic (but previously Hindu, and before that Buddhist - all in 300 years) Brunei are as loud as some of our Hindu ones here, and the most popular Islamic festival is a simple derivative of Diwali. Shambhu and Jhule Lal and Sufi acolytes sway together come full moon nights at the Dargah near my home in South Delhi to some of the raunchiest qawwalis you can hear which simultaneously praise the maker.

Are biryani, kababs, symbols of guilt?

I don`t think Islam is on a guilt trip. The practitioners may be. But then, remember as recently as the `70s, the Church frowned on oral sex as well as Jesus Christ Superstar?

Eat pork or not, or beef for that matter, got to do with mad cow and brain disease. But hey, it is time that Islam came out from behind the perception of being guilt trip. So who is going to carry that first santoor, or veena, or sitar, or guitar, or keyboards . . . and put the verses of the Kuran to modern music?

After all, who can forget the song ``purdeh mein rehene do, purdah naa uthaoh . . . purdah jo uth gaya to . . . etcetc . . . allah meri tobaa allah meri tobaa . . .``. No guilt trip in that bump and grind, sure . . .

...wow, i didn`t know you could write so many words on any topic without being compelled to somehow drag india in...congratulations...

Islam is the best thing that happened to pigs.

Actually, in NY, Judaism is the best thing that happened to pigs.

A fine article indeed! I agree that American-Muslims have totally confined themselves to Pig and Wine. Don`t Eat Pig, and Don`t Drink Wine! Wear clothes which make you look like Talibans in Public places and teach your children to FEAR Allah rather than to love Him. That is all what is on the minds of American-Muslims. Standing on JFK when a PIA flight has landed is quite an experience. You see all these DESIS, some of whom are wearing hitched shalwars and topis, and above all have humongous beards. Now I can understand why Pakistanis were rounded up when they were trying to catch Talibans!
Good Job!
Keep Writing!

Finally a good article from AFS. Its time all of us started criticising the bs of our own religions than feeling ``holier than thou``.

Hindus dont eat beef! It is the most ridiculous, arcane, stupid aspect of our religion. Could some ``pure`` hindu tell me why? My very rudimentary understanding of my own religion tells me ``because cow is like our mother, she gives us milk!``. Fortunately for me, my liberal brahmin parents could`nt answer that question to my satisfaction, so I had the privilege of consuming beef, loads of it, as I was growing up. When my grandma would wrinkle her nose in disgust as I was enjoying beef, I would LOOOVE to tell her ``just pretend that the meat came from a bull, dadima``. Apparently my grandparents had this weird idea of not wanting to eat the meat of Nandi`s brothers & sons.

India is OVERRUN by these wretched, mangy creatures!. You step on their cowpies & they block traffic as if they own the frikking road. One day my poor Amby hit a cow, in the middle of the night. I was more concerned about the bonnet of my Amby (which now looked like a tent) & had a fight with a gathering crowd because they were more concerned about a dead cow.

Worse than that, some stupid Pakistanis actually believe we hindus drink cow urine!

Goddamned hindu mullahs are more concerned about banning ``cow slaughter`` than seeing hindus starve!

Isi baat per hindustan hamesha maar kha jaata hai, yaar.

there are good reasons to avoid pig.. but mainly having to do with fat content and such. maybe there is lean pig meat as well.

the halal concept is very much in evidence in south east asia (malaysia and singapore). one interesting side effect has been that south indian vegetarian fast food restaurants (komalas) are very popular with malay muslims. Cos the veggie food is guaranteed halal and obviously has no chance of coming into contact with any kind of meat. Off on a digression: the Komalas concept (outdoing macdonalds with the fast food concept, with far more variety and mostly healthy) if and when it makes it to the US cities should be hugely popular.

the hindus avoid beef for a different reason (i.e. more to do with the sacredness of the cow).. If Islam avoids it because it is unclean then maybe it is time for a rethink.

warpster

eater of cows, pigs, snakes, etc.

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...good one, aisha...esp. liked this line:...``And above all, because my maker is outside Islam as much as she is within.``

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Aisha

Now this is a good Article. Shabaash.