Temporal October 9, 2002
#13 Posted by Godot on October 9, 2002 4:16:39 pm
No offence, t, but this article is insane. You sure can`t be serious...!!!
#12 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on October 9, 2002 4:02:36 pm
See how much creative enegry is released from harimau and his kind.
What have nukes got to do with anything? We don`t have to fall prey to the racism that somehow suggests Pakistan, or even India can`t take care of thier weapons, while the rest of the world can.
Its Election eve in Pakistan. Can`t we have some good wishes, hopes and plans?
-Aisha
What have nukes got to do with anything? We don`t have to fall prey to the racism that somehow suggests Pakistan, or even India can`t take care of thier weapons, while the rest of the world can.
Its Election eve in Pakistan. Can`t we have some good wishes, hopes and plans?
-Aisha
#11 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on October 9, 2002 3:57:34 pm
Dear Temporal,
``And those who think the coming elections would make a difference are in denial or delusional. Pakistan today is an occupied land. The Occupation Army has to be removed from the equation. Unless that is forced, nothing will change.``
Nothing deserves the cynicism. Why fit the buzzword ``occupied`` on Pakistan? Spare it the conflicts of the rest of the world.
I certainly, do not support the military`s intrusion. Of course we have to banish the paved ways of the military that spills out on the people`s will. But, my 2 decades of experience tell me what you are proposing is something out of Paramount Pictures.
Because the power structures today are so deeply ingrained and almost impossible to correct or change, it is naiveté to hope that some sort of Marxist, Socialist reform will balance power. The draconian laws, the religious chains can only be countered from within- If only the people within its domain are willing to change it. Or even if it is people outside that domain, they must use the same lexicon, to be let in. Like the changes on the hudood ordinance came based on the very foundations (false) that created it.
That is, increasingly the reality of how any progress will be made.
It is for this reason, I think Musharraf, is fine, bearable and allowed. The damage he has done to Pakistan, he could never make up for, but let us be realistic here. We had a benevolent despot before him, who allocated resources at his own whims and took tussles with the most sacred institutions. What do you make of a head of state that can interfere in a society`s social construct of morality? What do you make of that system? I know because I was there, that something needed to change, somehow. Those who say, democracy would have played out its part and filtered him. I disagree. There was no way that could have happened with massive instability.
And what is wrong with what he is proposing? I think 58 2b is a great idea. The more I think about it the more I am convinced. It is exactly, one person from within trying to undo a precedence. He`s the right person to do it. Its like a guy fighting for women`s rights, Like a person who has the burden of sticking to his words. My satisfaction lies in the fact that Musharraf is behaving like Mohammed Ali, when he said he was the greatest. When you raise the stakes and bet everything you have on proving something, you got to do it. And more often than not people don`t fall short.
I agree that its reckless to say what I am saying. Personality vs. Institutions. But, there is something about Musharraf`s leadership that, I think doesn`t deserve the hysteria here.
These elections will ensure the relative stability that is needed for Pakistan in the next 5-6 years. Look at the KSE? That`s all that matters to me.
Later
-Aisha Sarwari
``And those who think the coming elections would make a difference are in denial or delusional. Pakistan today is an occupied land. The Occupation Army has to be removed from the equation. Unless that is forced, nothing will change.``
Nothing deserves the cynicism. Why fit the buzzword ``occupied`` on Pakistan? Spare it the conflicts of the rest of the world.
I certainly, do not support the military`s intrusion. Of course we have to banish the paved ways of the military that spills out on the people`s will. But, my 2 decades of experience tell me what you are proposing is something out of Paramount Pictures.
Because the power structures today are so deeply ingrained and almost impossible to correct or change, it is naiveté to hope that some sort of Marxist, Socialist reform will balance power. The draconian laws, the religious chains can only be countered from within- If only the people within its domain are willing to change it. Or even if it is people outside that domain, they must use the same lexicon, to be let in. Like the changes on the hudood ordinance came based on the very foundations (false) that created it.
That is, increasingly the reality of how any progress will be made.
It is for this reason, I think Musharraf, is fine, bearable and allowed. The damage he has done to Pakistan, he could never make up for, but let us be realistic here. We had a benevolent despot before him, who allocated resources at his own whims and took tussles with the most sacred institutions. What do you make of a head of state that can interfere in a society`s social construct of morality? What do you make of that system? I know because I was there, that something needed to change, somehow. Those who say, democracy would have played out its part and filtered him. I disagree. There was no way that could have happened with massive instability.
And what is wrong with what he is proposing? I think 58 2b is a great idea. The more I think about it the more I am convinced. It is exactly, one person from within trying to undo a precedence. He`s the right person to do it. Its like a guy fighting for women`s rights, Like a person who has the burden of sticking to his words. My satisfaction lies in the fact that Musharraf is behaving like Mohammed Ali, when he said he was the greatest. When you raise the stakes and bet everything you have on proving something, you got to do it. And more often than not people don`t fall short.
I agree that its reckless to say what I am saying. Personality vs. Institutions. But, there is something about Musharraf`s leadership that, I think doesn`t deserve the hysteria here.
These elections will ensure the relative stability that is needed for Pakistan in the next 5-6 years. Look at the KSE? That`s all that matters to me.
Later
-Aisha Sarwari
#10 Posted by arjun_m on October 9, 2002 3:35:07 pm
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#9 Posted by harimau on October 9, 2002 3:08:56 pm
Temporal,
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. But Pakistan is not a wild mare as you call it but a nightmare for everybody involved. (Sorry for the bad puns).
China doesn`t know when the Jihadis will start their mischief in Xinjiang. The US doesn`t quite know what to do with Pakistan: any further destabilization will lead to the nukes going astray. Even a surgical strike as contemplated against Iraq is not easy. On the other hand, strengthening any Pak government will only permit it to keep adding to its nukes. There just is no way to de-fang the Pak military.
Everybody refers to the US War College simulation where every scenario of war between India and Pakistan ends up in a nuclear exchange. Maybe the situation is irredeemable and there WILL be a nuclear exchange some day on some slight provocation or pretext. Witness the Pak test of missiles. That will be the one shining moment in Pakistan`s history as every one of its cities goes up in flames along with Bombay, New Delhi, etc., in India. Pakistan will cease to exist and will finally be declared to be a no-man`s land.
All the hawks in Pakistan have to figure out how to grow stuff when the land is covered by green glass.
Maybe the US should deport Bilal Musharraf back to Pakistan so that Pervez knows that his family will be among the first to be wiped out. That would be an incentive not to start any funny stuff.
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. But Pakistan is not a wild mare as you call it but a nightmare for everybody involved. (Sorry for the bad puns).
China doesn`t know when the Jihadis will start their mischief in Xinjiang. The US doesn`t quite know what to do with Pakistan: any further destabilization will lead to the nukes going astray. Even a surgical strike as contemplated against Iraq is not easy. On the other hand, strengthening any Pak government will only permit it to keep adding to its nukes. There just is no way to de-fang the Pak military.
Everybody refers to the US War College simulation where every scenario of war between India and Pakistan ends up in a nuclear exchange. Maybe the situation is irredeemable and there WILL be a nuclear exchange some day on some slight provocation or pretext. Witness the Pak test of missiles. That will be the one shining moment in Pakistan`s history as every one of its cities goes up in flames along with Bombay, New Delhi, etc., in India. Pakistan will cease to exist and will finally be declared to be a no-man`s land.
All the hawks in Pakistan have to figure out how to grow stuff when the land is covered by green glass.
Maybe the US should deport Bilal Musharraf back to Pakistan so that Pervez knows that his family will be among the first to be wiped out. That would be an incentive not to start any funny stuff.
#8 Posted by hari on October 9, 2002 3:08:56 pm
Temporal:
What is happening to you?
Re ``Citizen`s coalition`` which is mentioned, how about this for a start.
Let the Citizen`s coalition, grand the title of ``major, captain, lt.gen, mjr gen, admiral, commodore, etc) to all pakistani citizens.
Let us face it. Civilians cannot take on the armed forces, because the latter is armed. The next best thing is to make every Pakistani citizen an officer of the armed forces. This way, people in a perceptional sense, feel they are equal and will avail and use the ``army canteen, army medical, army travel, army land-grab`` as equals.
The way, it can be attained in practical terms is simple. Since the armed forces staged a coup and sacked a legitimately elected prime-minister, have the prime-minister with authority deriving from the constitution to confer the officer titles to every pakistan citizen, man and woman.
The problem with the Pakistani armed forces is the lack of acting on core responsibilties. Their responsibility is to defend the country from enemies.
But they are not able to do even their ``core`` function. Then it becomes a dysfunctional army. The present army is nothing more than ``modern day mafia`` consisting of street thugs/hoodlums.
One has to be creative in dealing with this. One way is to place a ``cloud`` on all their entitlements. For instance, Benazir or Nawaz can grant titles to land currently occupied by army officers to the civilians and let the civilians sue in international court or something. secondly, send a warning notice that any and all contracts agreed to by the illegal army officers and their counterparts in other sectors is void retroactively when a future civilian govt takes place under the original constitution.
What is happening to you?
Re ``Citizen`s coalition`` which is mentioned, how about this for a start.
Let the Citizen`s coalition, grand the title of ``major, captain, lt.gen, mjr gen, admiral, commodore, etc) to all pakistani citizens.
Let us face it. Civilians cannot take on the armed forces, because the latter is armed. The next best thing is to make every Pakistani citizen an officer of the armed forces. This way, people in a perceptional sense, feel they are equal and will avail and use the ``army canteen, army medical, army travel, army land-grab`` as equals.
The way, it can be attained in practical terms is simple. Since the armed forces staged a coup and sacked a legitimately elected prime-minister, have the prime-minister with authority deriving from the constitution to confer the officer titles to every pakistan citizen, man and woman.
The problem with the Pakistani armed forces is the lack of acting on core responsibilties. Their responsibility is to defend the country from enemies.
But they are not able to do even their ``core`` function. Then it becomes a dysfunctional army. The present army is nothing more than ``modern day mafia`` consisting of street thugs/hoodlums.
One has to be creative in dealing with this. One way is to place a ``cloud`` on all their entitlements. For instance, Benazir or Nawaz can grant titles to land currently occupied by army officers to the civilians and let the civilians sue in international court or something. secondly, send a warning notice that any and all contracts agreed to by the illegal army officers and their counterparts in other sectors is void retroactively when a future civilian govt takes place under the original constitution.
#7 Posted by temporal on October 9, 2002 2:29:36 pm
stuka #4:
what is wrong with regional support for a security council seat?...we are a vibrant one-fifth of humanity...and we deserve that seat...but let us not get ahead of ourselves...first things first...let a moderate vibrant confident pakistan emerge...a real independent Pakistan not an Army-occupied Pakistan...help us get there first...
...t
what is wrong with regional support for a security council seat?...we are a vibrant one-fifth of humanity...and we deserve that seat...but let us not get ahead of ourselves...first things first...let a moderate vibrant confident pakistan emerge...a real independent Pakistan not an Army-occupied Pakistan...help us get there first...
...t
#6 Posted by SameerJB on October 9, 2002 2:29:35 pm
temporal: While the prblem is perfectly identified, the solution is not realistic. Given the rule of the army for more than half the period of nation`s history, a disgusting situation of divisions is intentionally created among the Pakistani populace. Pakistan now represents an uneasy accommodation of various blocks of population, separated by a variety of ways such as ethnicities, languages, elite, disenfranchised, Islamists, seculars etc. Over the years, favoritism of one at the expense of other have created tremendous mustrust and fisuures across various fault lines. No two group of people are honest allies except the pooresrt of poor across the nation. It has been administered under the tutelage of military and worked its way to their advantage though nation as a whole has suffered the effects of selective favoritisms.
Notice, mow MQM, representing the most educated and non-feudal urban class of Pakistani society is almost certain to support the illegitimate PCOs, LFOs, Musharraf, unilateral constitution amendments, result of farce referendum, NS - all for getting a favoritism nod from military. They will be joining hands with the worst lotas in the land of pure for a chance to have chiefministership in Sindh. The rift in Pakistani society has helped MQM not to lose any support from the urban educated classes of Karachi and Hyderabad despite the support for undemocratic, a daylight burglar, a corrpt and a trampler of constitution, only because he offered a carrot MQM could not refuse. So what if tomorrow a PQM pops up somewhere in Punjab with similar ideas like MQM - support a local overriding all stands and principles? This is bound to happen as a result of divide and rule strategy of military establishment. All these people will be branded supporter of a traitor is tomorrow another handpicked Supreme Court under another dictator declares Musharraf a traitor.
More you think of solution of army interference, more NS becomes right in taking steps to force military under civilian leadership. That stupid man afterall was on the right track at least in this matter.
The election results are already intentionally leaked as suggestions and calcualtions. The groundwork for this was going on for the last three years and in the end even the King`s party candidates have to hide their support for Musharraf to fool masses, instead relying on biradri, tribal affiliations and castes. All the surveys are pointing to total disinterest by more than 50 percent of the population about government and elections. October 10, 2002 will go down in history of Pakistan as another shameful day due to boots and plots mafia.
Notice, mow MQM, representing the most educated and non-feudal urban class of Pakistani society is almost certain to support the illegitimate PCOs, LFOs, Musharraf, unilateral constitution amendments, result of farce referendum, NS - all for getting a favoritism nod from military. They will be joining hands with the worst lotas in the land of pure for a chance to have chiefministership in Sindh. The rift in Pakistani society has helped MQM not to lose any support from the urban educated classes of Karachi and Hyderabad despite the support for undemocratic, a daylight burglar, a corrpt and a trampler of constitution, only because he offered a carrot MQM could not refuse. So what if tomorrow a PQM pops up somewhere in Punjab with similar ideas like MQM - support a local overriding all stands and principles? This is bound to happen as a result of divide and rule strategy of military establishment. All these people will be branded supporter of a traitor is tomorrow another handpicked Supreme Court under another dictator declares Musharraf a traitor.
More you think of solution of army interference, more NS becomes right in taking steps to force military under civilian leadership. That stupid man afterall was on the right track at least in this matter.
The election results are already intentionally leaked as suggestions and calcualtions. The groundwork for this was going on for the last three years and in the end even the King`s party candidates have to hide their support for Musharraf to fool masses, instead relying on biradri, tribal affiliations and castes. All the surveys are pointing to total disinterest by more than 50 percent of the population about government and elections. October 10, 2002 will go down in history of Pakistan as another shameful day due to boots and plots mafia.
#5 Posted by pmishra2 on October 9, 2002 2:03:54 pm
Good luck with your common-sensical approach. I assure you that the
Paki military will prefer to have the entire country destroyed
before agreeing
to a tenth of what you are proposing. In passing, I read the letters column in the Nation the other day (always good for a giggle!) , and of 12 letter writers 8 were military men !
And what of LK Advani? Your
proposal will leave him bereft of any agenda, he can no longer just sit
on his ass and grumble all day about the bad, bad Pakis.
Paki military will prefer to have the entire country destroyed
before agreeing
to a tenth of what you are proposing. In passing, I read the letters column in the Nation the other day (always good for a giggle!) , and of 12 letter writers 8 were military men !
And what of LK Advani? Your
proposal will leave him bereft of any agenda, he can no longer just sit
on his ass and grumble all day about the bad, bad Pakis.
#4 Posted by stuka on October 9, 2002 1:16:36 pm
Temporal:
With due regards, you are hallucinating. Supporting India`s bid to the security council? You`ll probably be the only remaining citizen in the coalition once you mention that aspect. Forget security council, even if you guys agree to status quo in Kashmir with autonomy to the valley, increase in mutually beneficial trade etc, we will be happy and the elimination of JeM, LeT etc, we will be happy. Don`t want to hand over Dawood because of national pride, kill him there and be done with it.
In all seriousness, the problems of the Pakistan Army lie in the perks given to senior officers in terms of land, civillian deputations, foreign postings and raw power. Since comparisons to India are made at every stage, let there be a comparison of military perks as well. The people of Pakistan should demand that senior military officers get the same salaries and perks that the officers of the Indian Army get....no land grants, no deputations to civilian posts, no foreign postings except as Military Attaches (except maybe for retired chiefs only) etc. A perfectly legitimate requirement, but it`ll strip your Army of it`s arrogance in being the final decision maker of the destiny of Pakistan.
With due regards, you are hallucinating. Supporting India`s bid to the security council? You`ll probably be the only remaining citizen in the coalition once you mention that aspect. Forget security council, even if you guys agree to status quo in Kashmir with autonomy to the valley, increase in mutually beneficial trade etc, we will be happy and the elimination of JeM, LeT etc, we will be happy. Don`t want to hand over Dawood because of national pride, kill him there and be done with it.
In all seriousness, the problems of the Pakistan Army lie in the perks given to senior officers in terms of land, civillian deputations, foreign postings and raw power. Since comparisons to India are made at every stage, let there be a comparison of military perks as well. The people of Pakistan should demand that senior military officers get the same salaries and perks that the officers of the Indian Army get....no land grants, no deputations to civilian posts, no foreign postings except as Military Attaches (except maybe for retired chiefs only) etc. A perfectly legitimate requirement, but it`ll strip your Army of it`s arrogance in being the final decision maker of the destiny of Pakistan.
#3 Posted by arjun_m on October 9, 2002 1:09:22 pm
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#2 Posted by mithuna on October 9, 2002 1:00:53 pm
{{First a broad coalition has to be weaved out of the populace. }}
NGOs and Madaris getting together to oppose Army??? And this has to be done first?? Ok. What is plan B?
NGOs and Madaris getting together to oppose Army??? And this has to be done first?? Ok. What is plan B?
#1 Posted by Shah on October 9, 2002 12:59:21 pm
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