Military, Musharraf and Magic

i got the point......good article.....thought provoking.....above all.....long articles r a big hassle...u r precise yet thought provoking.....a merit worth praise......!!! c u

re:#71 by hari
Hari,
They used to say in old days ``all roads lead to Rome``. Now-a-days, it is popular to say: all terrorist trails lead to Pakistan. Did you read about the bombing in Bali. There are links to al-qaida and Pakistanis to that bombing. The tragedy is that Bali has a Hindu majority and has been a peaceful island for a long time. May be US will finally wake up to the fact that breeding ground for terrorism worlwide is in Pakistan and that is where the battle needs to be fought (and not in Iraq).
As you rightly said, woment will be the victims. Pak may slip into chaos just like Afghanistan did.
Sridhar

#65 Sridhar:

Frankly, the first order of the MMA in coming to power would be something like this:

1. women must wear burqa; they will even select a specific color. perhaps, the afghani blue type
2. women barred from education, jobs.
3. women barred from wearing make ups.
4. women to be accompanied by husband or relatives.
5.more women specific laws...

somehow, these nutcases are fixated about issues demeaning women.
I don`t know why.
They they will turn to this:
201. no interest to be paid. (say bye bye to FDI or any investment)
202, 203.....

say good bye to kashmir quest. no sane person in the western world would ever THINK of equating Kashmir cause with Pakistan anymore; with the recent bombing of Bali tourists, even liberal minded countries will stay away from Pakistan. Even China will be wary of dealing with MMA since NWFP and Balochistan ruled by MMA majority is cutting close to their muslim province.

God help!

Good piece Saima,

We often tend to complicate things more than they need to be and such is the case in Pakistan. Conspiracy theorists are abound in our great land along with pundits and tale weavers. Pakistan truly is a magical place even if for all the wrong reasons.

As one friend of mine pointed out during a heated debate on the pending American action against Iraq: ``If other countries are so passionate about not taking Iraq to war, why are they so muted in their response to the American agenda`` - its very easy to critique from outside, but near impossbile to take a positive stand, commend the good, fix the bad and move on to the next issue.

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Here is a letter from a true pakistani and his idea of what those on chowk are engaged in.



Advice from abroad



Not a single day passes when a letter does not appear in these columns written by an `intellectual` of Pakistani origin now residing in the United States or Canada. These former Pakistanis are hell bent on giving us their valued opinion on all the problems faced by this poor country and its beleaguered population.

Whether it is the blasphemy laws, transport problems or the miserable state of education and health, they have an opinion and a solution for everything.

One may ask them that if they have so much love and concern for Pakistan and its people, then why did they choose to abandon it? Living in a foreign land as second class citizens seems to have somehow galvanized their brains and they are dying to put everything right in this country.

My humble request to them is that sitting thousands of miles away and merely giving sermons from there is not helpful.

I would suggest that they give up their petrol pumps, laundries, corner shops and mini-cab services and come back to Pakistan to bring a real change in this country.

DR SHAHAB JAVID

Karachi

America`s welcome mat with out paki t-shirt



I had the honour of experiencing the new welcome mat offered to Muslims (and the citizens of the `axis of evil` countries) arriving in the United States. This mat has been hand-tailored by Mr Ashcroft to protect US citizens and demean people who are not.

The point is when we got the `are you with us, or against us?` speech; we said `with you`, yet our citizens are being treated like we are enemies of the United States. Why is it that we, who are called `one of America`s closest allies in the war against terror` are being treated like common criminals?

The US government keeps saying that the new policy was created to protect all parties and that it is not a racist policy. I have to say that I, a Pakistani citizen living in New York, recently got the humiliating `follow me sir`. I was finger-printed, photographed, and questioned as if I had committed some horrible crime. This process took two hours, causing me to miss my flight and be stuck in Canada for another day. I was specifically told that the Immigration Department had nothing to offer in the form of reimbursement for the extra night I had to stay in a hotel, the potential income lost because of meetings I missed the next day, and the embarrassment caused to my clients who I was flying with.

I pay my American taxes and I have saved an American life (a stranger`s nonetheless, and almost lost my own in the process), and yet I was made to feel like I am a Taliban foot soldier. I was visited by the Department of Justice and New York Police Department men at home, only to be asked if I was a terrorist.

If Pakistani citizens are being treated like this by the US, why haven`t we lodged a more formal and resentful complaint? We need to be proactive on this issue.

The Saudis have announced that they will subject all Americans to the same process of being photographed and finger-printed upon entry into the kingdom.

I suggest we follow suit, as should all other countries unfairly targeted by an administration that failed to protect its own civilians and is now punishing innocent foreigners for their lack of action before 9/11.

AMMAR HAMDANI

New York, USA

re: MMA is going to be trouble for Mushy boy!
http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2002101304070100.htm
From The Hindu:
Excerpts:
``The Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), a conglomerate of six Pakistan religious parties, has fired a salvo against the Musharraf Government by asserting that it would not allow U.S. troops to use Pakistani soil.

Qazi Hussain Ahmed, leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami and one of the top leaders of the MMA, told supporters who had gathered to celebrate the MMA`s victory in the election, that the alliance would work to achieve its goal of ensuring that the U.S. vacated its military bases in Pakistan.``
It is already happening as i had predicted. By allowing these elements to contest, Mushy has tried to institutionalise extremism. He may have done this to keep reminding Uncle Sam that he is the best bet still. But the policy is going to backfire.
Sridhar

A word or two about the fairness of the polls:
EU criticises Pakistan poll `flaws`
``International observers from the European Union say Pakistan`s general election was seriously flawed by official interference in favour of parties supporting President Pervez Musharraf. ``
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2322745.stm
These `flaws` were no accident. They were a necessity to increase Musharraf`s relevance to the Americans (by negating the relevance of NS/BB, and by magnifying the threat posed by the fundamentalists). In the future lies a conflict between the military regime (that will still have to comply with American wishes) and the Islamists who will not compromise with Musharraf. In the process, the regime is simply saying to the middle class Pakistanis -- to hell with you.

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Since we are talking about pakistani elections here - how come no paki has so far commented about the highly successful, free and fair elections in Kashmir. After all - we used to hear that Kashmir runs in every paki`s blood. Kashmiris have finally delivered a swift kick in the face of Paki Jihadis and have chosen democracy and peace over discredited ideologies of Pakis. May be that is what have made them shut up.

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Chowk`s chief correspondent hamidm -- your #55 coverage of Musharraf`s 10/10 Election -- beats everybody`s -- thanks for the insiders view.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2322745.stm

International observers from the European Union say Pakistan`s general election was seriously flawed.

re: Elections in Pak versus elections in Jammu and Kashmir (India)
I see a new confidence in Kashmiris following the defeat of NC, particularly the legacy of the Abdullah clan. People have not seen anything like this happen in many decades. May be, just may be, things are turning around and Kashmiris have a real hope for peace. Following is Mehbooba Mufti`s (daughter of erstwhile congress politician from Kashmir) interview:
Mehbooba Mufti`s interview on Aaj Tak
http://images.thenewspapertoday.com/videos/aajtak/mehbooba_56.ram
I am impressed by her quick wit and pleasing demeanour.
While good things are happening in Kashmir, our Mushy boy in Pak is not looking good at the moment. A pseudo-democracy in Pak now has hardliners from NWFP. How will US react? What happens if these hardliners want US troops to leave Pak? Will Mushy then reassert himself by dismissing an elected govt? Interesting times!
Sridhar

re: hamidm2 #55

Karta dharta...?

Amazing....the last I heard that expression was from my grandmother...who died many years ago....and now, from hamidm!

I would NEVER have imagined anybody in Pakistan used that phrase....do they?

re: Harimau # 38

``So, it is wonderful that Pakistanis elect Islamic fundamentalists to their National Assembly``

No. It is not wonderful. This is a bad choice.

``but it is so baaaad when Indians elect the BJP to power?``

Electing BJP types is bad too.

My support for people`s right to choose freely neither implies nor depends on my personal endorsement of their specific choices.

As an Indian, you ought to know this simple distinction.

....... all right, boys and girls, get a grip on yourself ........ maybe, just maybe, all is not lost yet............ i called rafiq the bootlegger on his mobile and this is what he said: `` hamid sahib, aap fiqr na karain.. inshallah, jab talak hum zinda hain aur jarnail sahib hayat hain, aap ko heinikin aur black label milti rahi gee.... allah ki kasam, aap bil qul fiqr na karain - banda tabaydar hai `` ........... phew!........thank ganesh, that was a relief !..............i use rafiq and my kid sister as the true barometers of political reality in pakistan - they know what is going on ...............ganesh willing, everything will be all right ............. and why am i invoking ganesh instead of allah ? ............ well, i think allah is on the fundamentalist`s side and as a protest i will pray to ganesh this week ..........

.............. my kid sister - baby maker, cake baker and resident political activist armed with a degree in home economics and a subscription to friday times - called me up last night,.............she was livid with anger............ she is distraught at the fact that a mullah - a bakra or billy goat, as she calls them - has won on her watch in islamabad ......... she lambasted me and all other americans for this disaster - `` you, you ........you guys and your stupid president did it - it was a vote against bush, not a vote for mullah what`shisname`` ....... she doesn`t even know this guy`s name - and she is a karta dhartha in the woman`s wing of PML(Z).... (or is it imran khan`s thereek-i-insaaf.).............. i don`t know !.......... anyway, she is convinced that those darn afghanis in G-8 and G-9 are responsible for this disaster - she wants to fire gulay, her afghan maid, and throw her and her extended family of twenty six people out of the servant quarters ..............she is particularly mad at her lazy husband who couldn`t be bothered to vote.......... it appears that she is the only one in the family who went out to vote (that`s what happens when women drive) .................and she is particularly mad at her witchy sisters-in-law who mysteriously started wearing the hijab a few years ago - she is convinced that they voted for the mullah..........witches! .... she never liked them ................ she is worried sick about her younger daughter who likes to wear blue jeans and bluer nail polish and insists on going to jinnah super without a dopatta .............`` ya allah, what is going to happen``, she sobbed ................ under the influence of gin and tonic, i told her, `` don`t worry, ganesh willing, everything will be all right - rafiq says so `` ................``astaghfirullah, you are mad, what is this ganesh business, and who is rafiq ........have you been hanging out with those horrible hindoos again ......... shame on you - this is is why allah has forsaken us and inflicted the aazzaab of the mullahs `` ...........blame it on ganesh.... blame it on gin .............

WHERE IS IRAQ,

Americans are not well known for thier knowledge of geography. Now that the US military is almost ready to attack iraq, the elections in pakistan may need iraquisation of another country. Need of the hour is iraquisation, some other countries should get priority over iraq.

Ref Karakoram #45

[If the fundoos decide that they want to Nuke India and have a jihad unto death. They should not be allowed to, even if they have brainwashed all the frustrated (in every sense of the word) in NWFP and the majority wants it.]

But it is folks like General Gul Hamid (retired Army brass and ISI chief) who feel that a nukefest with India is a good thing. I know, I know, he has become a fundoo in his retirement but let us not forget that the fundoo seeds were in his head long before his retirement.

[Also now the fundoos have a political platform to voice and argue their perspectives. If they still choose to resort to street fighting, jihadi bombings and violence, then there is no excuse to not exterminate the buggers, even if they hold office.]

Most likely, they will also get exiled to Saudi Arabia for 10 years rather than being exterminated.

Ref anNy #45

[to consider oneself as a solution or the person who has all the answers is idiocy...]

Megalomania, Napoleon Complex, Compensating for a short you-know-what, etc., seem to be as good a fit as `idiocy`.

re: hamidm #25

...holy $hit...quit your PowerPoint and value creation analyses and start some stand-up routine somewhere...that was hilarious...hahahah.....

For democracy to work, people with different opinions have to agree in their heart of hearts that democracy is the only way. That means that even if their ideas or vision are not popular and they do not get elected, they support the laws of the land, maintain law and order and work to get people to buy into their ideas, not resorting to violence or destabilization tactics.

That means that the concept of democracy has to become more sacred than religion or any other concept- Democracy and the writ of the majority, with exceptions that safeguard the rights of minorities, supercedes even interpretations of Islam.

Unfortunately we in Pakistan do not even agree on what democracy is, let alone it being sacred. People in NWFP don`t want women to vote. I would even argue that the fundoos are USING democracy as a tool to eventually do away with it and its associated institutions and to bring about what they think is TRUE Islamic rule. Our past rulers used democracy, to further their dynastic ambitions. So democracy without some control or rigging in present day Pakistan will lead to chaos.

A mullah from Malakand would make a terrible Finance Minister. And who needs a foreign minister like Mulla Zaeef (must be sunning himself in Guantanamo at this moment).

We need to create order, not more chaos. There is no shortage of chaos in Pakistan and any place can become chaotic and inefficient without some force exercising authority and setting direction with the overall picture in mind. Democracy in Pakistan is not capable of providing a rule that will function somewhat smoothly and provide its citizens with law and order, security, and the personal freedoms.

The enlightened are the ones who want to bring about a democracy, such that it can sustain itself.

In this day and age we live in large societies, we are no longer living like nomads and hunter gatherers. To provide for large societies, to plan housing, provide drinking water, provide electricity, opportunites, entertainment outlets, etc. etc. requires an educated people with knowledge and vision. Mullas living in masjids do not know how to run cities and countries and will create more frustration.

Even Muhammad (PBUH) would have a hell of a time running Pakistan even with God`s help. Half the people would want him hanged for thinking he was Muhammad (PBUH). And half the people on this board will want me hanged for saying that if the Prophet came to Karachi half the people would want him hanged- get it ?

thats what we`re up against. ignorance.... Ignorants should not be allowed to make decisions- they can however sit in the process and all decisions argued on merit with the King`s party having the final say.

I`m just trying to be pragmatic.

To clarify my previous post, as bizarre as it sounds: Democracy not being meant for Pakistan does not mean that we should not have elections. By all means we should have elections until the people are enlightened, involved, women get to vote, and they get used to the process and the elected officals should be held responsible for local issues like local district level issues, controlling law and order, police reforms etc.....

Its just that, until we get our internal house in order, the big/sensitive decisions relating to economy, foreign policy, personal freedom, free functioning judiciary & press, fight against terrorists etc. cannot be handed over to any aera ghaira natto khaira elected on a fundoo or paindoo seat. Education, experience, qualifications and a global vision count in these areas.

bring it on kids, whaddya have to say !

to say pakistan needs to be run by a select, `enlightened` people with a global vision is not just silly and elitist but at the risk of sounding terribly cliched, its downright insulting and smacks of an overdose of arrogance...similar sentiments such as `pakistans common mans problem is he thinks he`s smart whereas he just isnt` are all too frequent and make me want to kick the very uncommon man spouting such pearls..its because of the manipulation by this select few, who if ull excuse me please, have no global vision fision, that pakistan is today the mess it is...musharraf and his chealaas are sad little men who are convinced they can get the country back on track...sidelining the law, the constitution, the common mans sensibilities these people are out to fix up everything in this mess, to jahanum with what the people being fixed might have to say...
to consider oneself as a solution or the person who has all the answers is idiocy, not to mention a sheer wrong unto all those concerned...niyyat and good intentions dont matter too much after a certain period & underestimating the people and asking for them to follow till their judgement is `developed` enough to be trusted, thats just not fair marra...let there be a mess..a huge big mess out of pakistan, bigger than what we have now...loooot, plunder, bad governance, bad water, bad roads, no electricity for days, wapda going bankrupt, sectarian violence, ethnic violence...atleast the people will create this mess...and so they will eventually fix it themselves..with no savior on the horizon, they wont have a choice...it may take long, it may happen too late but theyll be smacked out of their apathy..apathy which is a direct result of being pushed this way and that over half a bloody century

yes, ill bite

Hamidm2:

You once said that even if a nai was elected as PM of Pakistan that would be fine and now you`re worried about your bootlegger in Pindi because a fundoo won a seat. tsk tsk!

I guess a nai is better than a fundoo. Either way, I wouldn`t get too worked up, your bootlegger may have a new market to tap. Not all Maulana`s are free from vices, if you didn`t know already. Their weakness for women, wine and young boys is no secret.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

You guys are a bunch of losers. No scenario would have made you happy. If PPP won, oh its back to BB and her crony husband, PML(N) wins, oh Nawaz and Shahbaz will loot and plunder again, Army staying in power: We want democracy, Democracy/free and fair elections happen and MMA wins, oh the fundoos have gained some seats and its Musharraf`s fault, if Imran Khan were to win, oh he`s a cricketer what does he know, married a jewish woman etc.

losers and pessimists, most of you.

One thing that makes me feel secure with losers like you, corrupt leaders of the past and suicidal violent fascist fundoos around, is that the ARMY and Musharraf and his TEAM are not going anywhere. They will still be running the show behind the scenes and everyone elected or otherwise is gonna have to get their approval. Those who think otherwise should watch and see.

Democracy is not meant for Pakistan at this stage. No matter how elitist or silly this may sound: Pakistan needs to be run by a select enlightened people with a global vision to put its house in order over some time before the people`s decisions can be trusted and the people become enlightened and a part of mainstream society (like the tribals and other isolationists).

Women were not allowed to vote in NWFP. What kind of a democracy do we have where women do not even have the right to vote. Most probably in rural Sindh the hari`s voted for their local waderas again. Urban areas must have had some semblance of true and fair elections and are representative of educated people`s wishes.

Rule of the enlightened few who are world-wise, yet aware of the native Pakistani mindset(s) is going to be good for Pakistan. If the fundoos decide that they want to Nuke India and have a jihad unto death. They should not be allowed to, even if they have brainwashed all the frustrated (in every sense of the word) in NWFP and the majority wants it.

The postive aspect of this election and the future democracy: Fundoos, PPP, PML, etc. will have to discuss, fight out seek alliances for every new resolution, thus hopefully bridging differences, increasing involvement in issues/decisin making from all stratas of society, and hopefully making people less extremist more pragmatic and tolerant. Also now the fundoos have a political platform to voice and argue their perspectives. If they still choose to resort to street fighting, jihadi bombings and violence, then there is no excuse to not exterminate the buggers, even if they hold office. Now they have an option to propose solutions to issues using a poiltical platform without threatening violence. Lets see if they are enlightened enough to do that.

BIG/IMPORTANT decisions will continue to be made by the king`s party (Allah ka shukar hai). Watch and see.

Pakistan Zindabad !

``Everybody talks big and does little. Now this is a huge playing field for writers...``

Hey....:( what does this mean?

anny

this will cheer you up - heard this just yesterday on npr radio. It`has been ages I came across such avivid piece of writing. It`s an audio file though.

http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/segment_display.cfm?segID=151425

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assadk, sameersaab, saima
u folks have to admit this is hysterically funny..this whole situation is godawfully mirth inspiring, just too funny in a really sad way

Time for Field Marshal Romair to trot out his statement that Pakistanis never elect any of their fundamentalists to their National Assembly unlike the horrible Hindoos who elected the BJP. From the BBC:

[Islamic parties surge in Pakistan poll

Islamic fundamentalists have made a strong showing

Anti-American Muslim fundamentalist parties are making a surprisingly strong showing in Pakistan`s general elections.
With more than a third of the results counted, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), or United Action Front, has won at least 27 seats.]

Ref Prem #33

[Hate to say it, but I agree with Romair # 29.]

I knew you would rush up to kiss the Field Marshal`s butt the moment there was any sign of him bending.

So, it is wonderful that Pakistanis elect Islamic fundamentalists to their National Assembly but it is so baaaad when Indians elect the BJP to power? Please explain that to me.

Ref hamidm2 #25

[.......... mary, mother of god, help us ! .... vishnu, mohammad, zoroaster, musharraf help us!.......... ya alah, we are doomed!]

In your rush to seek the help of all and sundry (this a uniquely Hindu trait who have no problems going to some dargah, church or temple in the hope that they haven`t missed out on any of the bases -- I have to doubt your claims to be a pure-blooded Pathan descended from Abdal Ali), you seem to have forgotten that it is Muhammad and Musharraf who have landed Pakistan in the pickle it finds itself in today.

How about Ganesha, you know, the one with the elephant head?

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I invite everyone to put Field Marshal ROmair`s name in the search box and read his replies over the years. Each and everyone of his brilliant analysis has proven to a be piece of crap. And even now he has the nerve to show up with nary a sign of repentance.......Anyone who takes this guy seriously needs serious medical attention.

later
-sac

hamidm2

I am not happy at the outcome either. But one has to be dumb as a mule not to have thought that this would have happened. Extremism always gives rise to further extremism and never eradicates it. I have been crying since 9/11 and even before that political issues must be resolved politically, but at that time you ilk was gleaming to see that your political opponent`s arses were being kicked at the time.

Welcome to new Algeria.

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Hate to say it, but I agree with Romair # 29.

People should be free to make their decisions. That is exactly why Musharraf`s decisions to bar Benazir and Sharif from politics and to disfranchise 98% of the population by privileging graduates were - like much else the man has done in the last few years - criminal. But now that people have spoken, we must respect them.

If they have made a wrong decision (as some of us may believe they have), they will see a need to correct themselves. If not, we may learn a lesson in humility. We don`t always get things right.

P.S.: I was wrong in my suspicions about Musharraf`s determination to select Imran Khan. Imran Khan seemed such a perfect person to suit the needs of Musharraf`s army.....Yet, for whatever reason, I was proven wrong...an occurrence as rare as a grey cell in Imran`s head (ha!), but the Lord be thanked. He certainly IS merciful.

#29 Romair: ``Pakistanis have voted.`` which ones??? figures show only 25% turned up at the polling booths...when a fraction of the nation decides to vote i dun think that`s fair do u? and its certainly not fair when people rigged some of the polling booths...its not fair when the ladies at the polling booths did not even bother to look at our id cards cursorily and conveniently forgot to mark thumbs...38 friggin seats in the National Assembly...do u think we all want that??

rgds,
samina

TRUTH EMERGES,

At last one good thing has come out of the elections. The ilks of tahmed have maintaned that there are only 3 percent jihaedeists in pakistan and the blasphemy laws and honor killing laws are only the creation one bad zia. The general support for the above laws by the educated and a large majority have never been accepted by the ilks of tahmed and romair. Now at last there is proof, even in the allegedly educayed capital, the jihadists have come out in support of the laws they so much adore.

It is heartening to see pakistan fullfilling the true destiny of TNT, emerging as a truly jihadic country, a country created for islam.

Zubeida Jalal wins!!!!

All I can say is, ``Yeah baby.``

There are three individuals I have admired in Pakistani poltics: Imran Khan, Omar Asghar Khan, and Zubeida Jalal. All three are philanthrapists of international standard. They are charismatic, articulate, highly educated, progressive, urban and very efficient and effective.

Omar Asghar Khan was assasinated recently, otherwise he would have won by a landslide in the Hazara area, where his NGO Sangi has done great work against the timber mafia and for womens` rights etc.

Imran Khan needs no introduction.

Zubeida Jala is from a lower middle class family in rural Baluchistan. In this province the literacy rate for women is 2% (yes 2%). She is a self-made person, who became a philanthrapist building children`s schools in her area. Musharraf picked here up and appointed her the education minister, where she received praise even from the Bush govt.

For a women to win, to win in Pakistan against a man in a game of ludo is an achievement. For her to win, as an independent candidate, in the heartland of Baluchi sirdars is amazing.

Hats of to Zubeida. She is still in her early forties. I will have to add her to my list of heroes.

These elections have been hailed, so far, by all international agencies as being fair. The fact that these agencies were there to begin with, indicates that the elections would be fair. On top of that, the fact that Musharraf`s biggest opposers, the maulvi brigade has won more than it could have dreamed is a good indication, that the elections are fair. If the elections are rigged, then it was a terrible attempt at rigging, because the opposition has ended up winning.

The only purpose of elections is to be fair. After that any self-respecting person should accept the results, as the wish of the people. The aim of elections is not to force others to vote for your candidate. It is just to vote for your own candidate, and to respect the other person`s views. Anyone unwilling to accept this, is not a democrat. Such individuals have their own agendas and want everyone to follow them, regardless of what the people want. This is why religionatics and secularatics are dangerous. Their philosophy is my way, or the highway. One can see many of them emerge from the woodworks now on this site. The success of the religious parties is biting them in the ass. So much for their version of democracy. I don`t support the religious parties, but as a democrat, I am happy to accept their victory. They have won fair and square. They will now be the fourth largest group in Pakistani politics.

Some interesting trends:

- The maulvi brigade won in two provinces (Baluchistan and NWFP). Most seats they have ever won.

- People have rejected the provincial parties (ANP, Baluchi sardars), and have voted for national parties.

- PML (Q) did not win the most seats. PPP did. This was kind of expected.

- MQM has lost its stranglehold on Karachi, and JI has made a comeback there.

- PML(Q) lost to PML(N) in Lahore. However, maulvis have won some seats there as well.

Now, Pakistan politics is divided between four groups (PML(N), Q, PPPP and MMA). Previously, it was divided into five power groups (PML, PPP, MQM, ANP and Baluchi sirdars). Anyone who thinks Pakistan was a two party democracy knows very little about Pakistani politics. Provincial and urban Sindhi parties always had a powerful third and fourth group.

I am very happy to see the feudals lose in Baluchistan and NWFP. I am also happy to see MQM lose its stranglehold on Karachi. I am also happy to see Lahore politics change. The bad part is that all these changes have been brought about by the maulvi brigade. I would have like PTI to bring about these changes. However, while I think the maulvi brigade`s leadership is composed of hypocrits, I will still take them over the feudals anyday. They are far more democratic and lower middle class than the feudal parties. Since Pakistan is not a maulvi country, I am quite sure the maulvi brigade will have to moderate its extremist stances, in a coalition govt. It will also be a kick in the pants to parties like the MQM etc. to get their act together.

I have been rooting for six individuals in these elections. They are Imran Khan, Zubeida Jalal, Aitezaz Ahsan, Haleem Siddiqui, Omar Asghar Khan`s (marhoom) brother and Ayaz Amir. All these candidates are from six different parties. I have written in support of them before, and I have followed or know all of them. These people need to take leadership positions in Pakistan, and within their own parties. So far, from the news, Imran (the leader of the party I support) and Aitezaz (a family friend) have won. Lets hope the others win also.

SameerJB: you need to learn to respect the wishes of Pakistanis, and not attempt to force them to accept your desires. If you want to do the later, you need to participate in politics, or support candidates actively, like some of us (me) have done.

I really fail to understand your definition of democracy, and your attempts to make fun of religion and of Pakistan. You are a self-proclaimed Buddhist. That is fine. It is your choice, but that does not give you a right to badmouth Islam, with your jest at Khandaq`s etc. You have opted to leave Pakistan. Again your choice. But again, why badmouth Pakistan.

Pakistanis have voted. And they have selected their leadership. You should learn to respect their opinion. My party (PTI), a party that I actively support, not just through passive comments, hasn`t won much. But I am not going off on a tirade, making fun of Pakistan and Islam and everyone else. As long as I know the ballot boxes weren`t rigged, I accept the views of fellow Pakistanis, for not electing PTI members. Even the Musharraf govt., which is effected directly by these elections, has accepted the choice of the people. Why exactly do you think, you have a right to not accept it?

The people of Pakistan should do what they want. Not what you want. After all, they are living there and are electing their own leadership. You are not even living there, and are directly effected by their decisions. You will be more effected by whether Gore or Bush is elected.

Isn`t democracy for, by and of the people. Or is it for, by and of SameerJB?

I`ll be interested in the analyses as to the good performance of the MMA. While I doubt (and I`ll keep doubting until the final result is in) that they`ll make enough to form the government, they`ve done a darn sight better than ever before, even if they get no more seats than they have now. Difficult to blame this on government patronage, as it is hardly in Musharrafs interest to have them dominant. Rising anti-Americanism? Well, maybe.. more to do with Iraq and Palestine than Afghanistan and Kashmir? Possibly.
I suspect, though, that the final analysis will show it to be due to the mindset of Temporal, Sameer et al. The `moderate/progressive/liberal/call `em what you will` minded got convinced `Why bother?` and stayed at home, leaving it to the more simple (and narrow minded) to go out and be bothered to vote. And vote, of course, for their men of the beards. Not unlike voter patterns in the last election, where the Pipians just didn`t bother to go and vote, giving us a heavy mundate of 17% of the population.
Mind you, those who didn`t bother to go and vote will probably be the loudest to decry the road Pakistan takes.

dunno `bout the still orderliness of some of us Pakistani migrants...and don`t necessarily know about the greener pastures....but yes, Pakistan has always been an interesting place in space.

How come Pakistan`s EC stated that Voter IDs are a must and there can no waiver on that for the October election but the same EC said no need for Voter ID during April(Fool) referendum?

What kind of an EC is this dude?

......sameerjb is right as usual ..........and let me say yet again. `` didn`t i tell you, bb and ns were not all that bad``................ old mush is going to have a hard time explaining to bush why he is has to hand over power to al-qaeda ........ maulana sami-ul-haq as PM ! ............ his pupil mullah omar and his murshid osama bin laanat must be doing cartwheels in a dusty cave somwhere north of nowshera .......... qazi hussain as minister of finance! .......... good bye, you lovely lovely ladies at citibank ........maybe, just maybe we can have that special whipped coffee one more time - one more visit to the gold members club upstairs .... maybe ............ oh my god, i am hyper ventilating !

........... and how did a mullah get elected from islamabad ? ..... who are these closet jamaatis ? ........ are they going to shut down the arizona grille and pizza hut....... what will my kid`s eat this winter? ....... i tell you, it is those damn afghanis in G-8 and G-9 and the katchi abadis ....... does this mean i will not be able to get black label this winter - surely, the world is coming to an end!............good bye, islamabad - you were once a great city .............in the margalla hills, there are hundreds of bottles of london lager dating from the the early 70`s which will show archaeologists that once upon a time islamabad was a great city ............ we had joy, we had fun and, boy, did we have some seasons in the sun ............ oh lord, why.... why ..... what am i going to do .? .........

............. someone, anyone, ursruly, sameer bhai, temporal, please tell me all is not lost .......... i must call rafiq the bootlegger on his cell to make sure everthing is okay in aabpara .......... mary, mother of god, help us ! .... vishnu, mohammad, zoroaster, musharraf help us!.......... ya alah, we are doomed!

Whups, and there goes the Herald increasing their predicted seats for the MMA. Tsk, tsk..

Tidbit: I am going to write a short article tonight about Musharraf`s Myopic Vision. The two party system achieved as a result of 10 years of corrupt democracy went out the window due to the myopic vision of Musharraf et. al. People are winning with a total of 16,000 votes in a constituency of 250,000 voters. We are back to 1985 and partyless elections. Islamists have thus far won 28 out of 35 seats in NWFP. This is where USA/ Pakistani forces are searching for Al-Qaeda members.

Good Lord, Sameer, I’ve been following your near continuous output of emotionalism from here to that virtual-rag South Asia Tribune. I’m not sure if you noticed, but the MMA so far has NOT outdone what was projected for it by any margin. Lets see if they do get beyond 10% of the seats in the Assembly. And since the PPPP, PML-N and everyone else had the same amount of time to mobilize voters, how exactly are you crowing about this being yetanotherexampleofthatdamnmuhajir fouling the waters? All the accusations have been of government machinery siding with the PML-Q. So if the MMA was able to overcome that hurdle, in pretty much the places it was expected to, then why couldn’t the veterans of the PPPP and the PML-N??
Not expecting miracle, I hardly expect you to ever, ever say that just maaaaaaaybe ‘The combined forces of PPPP, PML( N) and MMA have scored big enough to join hands in the center, Punjab, Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan’ because the damned elections were reasonably fair. Anyhoo, time will tell, and there are hundreds of results yet to come in.
Oh, dear God, I’ve posted on chowk again..

#1 by adnan_rafiq on October 9, 2002 4:16pm PT
``And while we`re at it, let`s not forget about the critics who never miss an opportunity to blast Pakistan from the comfort of their American/Canadian homes. ``

its funny u shud mention that because i really gave it to a friend this morning who had the audacity to say that i was being unfair by not voting (hadnt decided till that point if i wanted to vote or not) and that even though he was sick of the leaders he still hadnt lost hope and it was because of this attitude that no decent ruler has ever come into power etc etc etc...and i said just that...easy for u to philosophize and hypothesize...u dont live here and are probably not going to...that shut him up :)

Saima: I couldnt agree with u more...u know im so sick of people complaining and criticizing...im all for optimism....i think as desis we have been brought up with this inherent pessimism..a paranoia of sorts that sooner or later something is bound to go wrong...acha sochna tu seekha hi nai hum nay....burai karnay and dhoondnay ki aadat ho gaee hai hum ko...u are so right...perhaps a balance is in order...coupled with a good butt kicking :D

rgds,
samina

sameerJB: u know never in a gazillion bazillion years would i have expected the MMA to outdo some of the major parties in the country...why??...how...???...who???

sorry for missing s in heralelections. The right address is www.heraldelections.com
Imran Khan wins in Mianwali by a wide margin but loses in Lahore to PML (N). MQM is in trouble too at the hands of MMA component JI. Well, well we have our own BJP, MMA victory in Pakistan.

MUSHARRAF IN DEEP TROUBLE
The bad policies of divide and rule by Musharraf has led to the unexpected surge in fundamentalists and they are winning big. They have even won the Islamabad urban seat, winning two in Karachi and routing everybody in NWFP and Balochistan. The Sarkari party is in toruble. The combined forces of PPPP, PML( N) and MMA have scored big enough to join hands in the center, Punjab, Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan. The Sarkari party will fall short of making government everywhere despite support from independents and smaller parties. Lahore has routed Musharraf`s party, Ch. Shujaat loses in Gujrat, Mian Azhar is also losing to JI. Haha, damn feudals??? Check out latest results at www. heraldelection.com
Now we can never be able to claim that Pakistanis do nto vote for fundamentalists and Islamaists, thanks to Musharraf.

Pakistan is one of the largest and strongest of nations on earth, with an educated elite that is second to none.

Therefore, I never understood this silly hopelessness. Yes, Pakistan has gotten stuck with national structures and systems that are simply incapable of endogenous change. But to do the impossible, you have to first believe you can.

It is the duty of every single educated, well-off Pakistani (in the case of Pakistan) to aim high, to develop a broad vision, to be inspired - not get caught in the eternally limiting quicksand of religion.

Aim to beat the world, not just those not-very-bright arabs, and there is no way you will be any less than any gora.

When wise men say you can`t, be foolish; just do it. That is the mindset Pakistanis (in fact, all of us who aim to change things- not just cry about them) must have.

I agree with the premise of this article. The stagnant state of affairs in the people`s psyche in Pakistan is a clear indication of the absence of hope and a dream. The means to achieve that dream always come later and they are always there. What people need at this time is a hope and a dream - and there is no one to show them that.

Happy Selection Day Pakistan!

Ras Siddiqui

(Very well written piece. Maybe Rushdie or Hamid have it right?)

sac: Hamid must be Mohsin Hamid of mothsmoke fame and Garcia is Marquez whose middle name is Garcia.

A former Pakistani Navy Chief has said he resigned from his post a week before the coup because he came to know Musharraf will be engineering a coup to protect himself from courtmartial for Kargil.

For some it may be just a happy accident, but its hard to believe that the 70-million strong Pakistani electorate thinks itself so morally and physically helpless that it feels it has to depend on the manipulations of such a person for whatever crumbs of representative govt. or good governance or role in policymaking he may throw down.

Someone used to say during the British days that if every Indian spits, the British Isles can be submerged, so what to say of a 70-million electorate vs a few thousand robber barons(even if added to a halfmillion Army)

The reluctance of Pakistani elite and public to insist on honest and regular electoral process as a prime principle of governance may stem from a widespread belief that in public life the upholding of a principle is way more important than its wide acceptability. That taking the trouble of seeking wide acceptability will only distort the perfection of the said principle.

Hence a few people are able to seize power simply by claiming to uphold principle. Whether the principle is what constitutes a real Pakistani(West or East) or Pakistani ideology or national interest or Kashmir or good governance or Islam, upholding of each one of these `principles` has been made the excuse to hold at bay public/electoral accountabilty, because the principle is more important that seeking its wide accepability, see.

The catches/pitfalls are twofold, firstly those who claim to be upholding some given principle are violating many others principles. (Musharraf says he took power to fight corruption and bad governance and defend national interest but he actually took power to prevent his own court martial and continues to maintain his and others immunity. So he claims to be upholding one set of principles but is violating a host of others including accountability of military objective to national objectives)

The second pitfall is, and thats why bouts of military rule are followed by a civilian backlash almost, is that , no principle however perfect can really be upheld nor can positive change be brought about by a few without wide acceptability and involvement of large numbers of people. That happens only through regular electoral process.

quantumquark

www.thefridaytimes.com

Interesting thoughts, Saima. I do think the expats tend to sell Pakistan and Pakistanis short and fail to see the redeeming values within its society. There is so much of truth to the adage that `believing is seeing`, is there not?
regards,
PM

``...What is usually missing is optimism and a balanced view.``

Are the two supposed to be one and the same? Maybe some examples would have helped.

Rushdie and Hamid???

Lets not get carried away here.......Hopkins and Stamos?

More later.
-sac

dear saima -- Pakistan is indeed a funny farm for easy critiques -- thanks to the Comedian-in-Chief..... Mirza Musharraf.

Pakistanis can not leave Islam and military is not going to leave Pakistanis on their own. Deal with it without introspection and this article is just that. We are glad to have Islam and military taking care of all the spending, all the problems with Kashmir on the top. We are one nation united under military, one dress, one language, one people, part dar-ul-harb, part dar-ul-amn and dying to be part of ummah. We were glad to have Mughals and except for an unfortunate period of 90 years (1857-1947) without Mughal empire we have reestablished the Islamic empire of subcontinent.
Any problem with eternally occupied? Those who were happy to be conquered by A-Z Turk, Persian and Afghan BCs must be pleased to be conquered already four times in 55 years. Islamabad, the capital of renewed kingdom is modeled after Panipat. Northside has natural defense, called Margala Hills, southside we have khandaq (trench) called Rawal Dam. The conqueror must enter from east or west. Since in the past all the invaders came from the west, through khyber pass, military has kept that tradition alive. Now the invaders rush through Murree road and appear with the lightening speed on the constitution avenue, very much like Ahmed Shah Abdali entering Panipat. On the average, these soldiers of god have never lost, every time eking out a victory from the jaws of defeat. Three defeats, three victories! Lose Kashmir, conquer Islamabad; lose Bangladesh, conquer Islamabad; lose Kargil, conquer Islamabad.

Does anybody have a link to Najam Sethi`s editorial? I couldn`t find it on the serach engines.

QuantumQuark

Good article, short and sweet and to the point.

Temporal

A must read for you. Your article was wishful thinking and castles in the air. This is down to earth reality.

Pakistanis don`t loose hope. Sooner of later, some other general will decide that he is smarter and more capable than Musharraf and Musharraf will end up in Saudi arabia or England if he is lucky.
Or who knows America may decide he has become too smart for his own good and he might be added to the list of evil empire. Then again we can`t rule out the possiblity, that Bin Laden or one of his chelas may decide the Musharraf has to be sent to hell and a PIA plane may change direction and head towards the presidential palace, The possibilities are infinite.

Enjoyed this.

And while we`re at it, let`s not forget about the critics who never miss an opportunity to blast Pakistan from the comfort of their American/Canadian homes.

Saima, what a great article!!! Absolutely loved it!!! Agree one hundred percent. Thank you so much!!!