Myopic, Malevolent, Megalomaniac
Sameer October 11, 2002
#128 Posted by jay on October 17, 2002 7:49:53 am
MISSING PAKISTANIS
One of the strogest proponents of the 3 percent theorists and the publicist of moderate democracy loving pakistanis, Mr Tahmed is missing since the elections. YLh, of course since his deportation has not been able to find much time. If these two can accept their complete misreading of the pak psyche and the rise to power of the children of TNT, it could just be the moment of pride for pakistan, two who have learned from chowk.
One of the strogest proponents of the 3 percent theorists and the publicist of moderate democracy loving pakistanis, Mr Tahmed is missing since the elections. YLh, of course since his deportation has not been able to find much time. If these two can accept their complete misreading of the pak psyche and the rise to power of the children of TNT, it could just be the moment of pride for pakistan, two who have learned from chowk.
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#127 Posted by SameerJB on October 16, 2002 7:33:23 pm
omar_r_quraishi: I picked up that incident from an article in this edition of south asia tribune at www.satribune.com I will go back and provide you with actual url. It was expected because MMA has won Islamabad seat and area around Faisal mosque, F-8 area, is little upper middle class with some people who do not mind little freedom of fashion, perhaps. At the same time it is very close to mostly conservative Afghan refugee dominated G-8 sector.
Here is another intersting information, I picked up just now from an article by Shahwar Junaid in today`s Nation daily:
[One assessment is that the government was not able to manipulate the election machinery in the NWFP and Balochistan to the extent that it would have liked to and local staff did not cooperate in the manipulation as required. The percentage of votes cast in both provinces remained consistent at about 24 to 35 per cent, regardless of the affiliation of successful candidates. Elsewhere in the country, in every constituency where pro-government parties won, the number of votes polled was about 10 to 25 % higher than the norm and the additional votes were cast in favor of the winning, pro-government candidates.]
I guess, pro-government voters in winnable constituencies were more enthusiatic than other places? Interesting ``conspiracy`` theory?
Here is another intersting information, I picked up just now from an article by Shahwar Junaid in today`s Nation daily:
[One assessment is that the government was not able to manipulate the election machinery in the NWFP and Balochistan to the extent that it would have liked to and local staff did not cooperate in the manipulation as required. The percentage of votes cast in both provinces remained consistent at about 24 to 35 per cent, regardless of the affiliation of successful candidates. Elsewhere in the country, in every constituency where pro-government parties won, the number of votes polled was about 10 to 25 % higher than the norm and the additional votes were cast in favor of the winning, pro-government candidates.]
I guess, pro-government voters in winnable constituencies were more enthusiatic than other places? Interesting ``conspiracy`` theory?
#126 Posted by pmishra2 on October 16, 2002 12:34:10 pm
omar_r_quraishi #123
Welcome back ! Andnso surprise, you are spending your time ``explaining`` how heavy support for fundamentalist
parties in Pakistan doesn`t mean anything. And yes, some guy
called Lieven also think so and he is amerikan so must always
be right. On the other hand
support for BJP in India, well, than means Hitler has more-or-less
been reborn, arre, the fascism and look they have the swastika
already !!
What a joke! What hypocrisy! You must think we are really, really stupid. Good luck with your hatemongers. I have a feeling that you might need asylum someplace outside pakistan sometime soon.
Welcome back ! Andnso surprise, you are spending your time ``explaining`` how heavy support for fundamentalist
parties in Pakistan doesn`t mean anything. And yes, some guy
called Lieven also think so and he is amerikan so must always
be right. On the other hand
support for BJP in India, well, than means Hitler has more-or-less
been reborn, arre, the fascism and look they have the swastika
already !!
What a joke! What hypocrisy! You must think we are really, really stupid. Good luck with your hatemongers. I have a feeling that you might need asylum someplace outside pakistan sometime soon.
#125 Posted by arjun_m on October 16, 2002 9:25:19 am
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#124 Posted by sadna on October 16, 2002 8:35:36 am
I said in #56 wrt Pakistani establishment and religious parties
``The shady liason of the past is now a marriage with one spouse yelling desertion``
The correct statement is: ``The shady liason of the past is now a marriage with the bride proudly displaying the meher``
``The shady liason of the past is now a marriage with one spouse yelling desertion``
The correct statement is: ``The shady liason of the past is now a marriage with the bride proudly displaying the meher``
#123 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on October 16, 2002 8:35:35 am
samer jb-- could you elaborate more on the incident u said happened in islamabad -- was it recent and did u read it in some paper or is it hearsay or anecdotal -- thanks in advance
#122 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on October 16, 2002 8:35:35 am
since you guys are talking about the elections results, here`s something that will be published in this saturday`s dawn -- feedback can be mailed to the email address at the end of the article, which is actually part of a column called `media review` -- hence the reference to the coverage in foreign newspapers -- thanks
The rise of the MMA
The American and British press has shown a distinct wariness in the dramatic success of the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), perhaps understandably so, since this six-party alliance had an overtly anti-west agenda.
Writing in The Guardian on Oct. 12, Anatol Lieven, a senior associate of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, says that the increase in the vote for the MMA was “worrying and unwelcome, but it does not have to lead to disaster.”
Lieven wrote that the “key question” – presumably as far as America and the rest of the coalition allies are concerned – would now be how far an MMA government in the NWFP is able to block joint actions by Pakistan and the US against Al Qaeda. Several commentators speaking on various private channels like Geo, Indus Vision and ARY have said that since the decision to stay in the war against terror was one taken by the federal government that policy is likely to remain the same. However, one analyst did ask the relevant question that what would happen if a raid against a suspect Al Qaeda terrorist has to be carried not in FATA but in Peshawar? As in, what if the provincial government refused assistance? To this, the answer came that the federal government has paramilitary and military troops at its disposal but still it would be an unsavoury and embarrassing situation were an elected government to refuse assistance to Islamabad in such a delicate matter. Besides, maybe some people forget that it was the police that carried out the raid in Karachi that netted the much-wanted so-called 20th hijacker Ramzi bin Al Shibh.
Going back to this article, Lieven wrote that the MMA was a “very long way” away from gaining “a plurality, let alone a majority”. And then the point that has been made in the editorial columns of some Pakistani newspapers (including Dawn), that the alliance is not a homogenous/monolithic bloc but a “highly disparate and mutually antagonistic alliance” especially since it contains parties with varying degrees of militancy.
“Maybe hatred of America and of General Musharraf, and the joys of controlling provincial governments, will hold them together – but maybe not,” he writes. However, the very cynical among us, including some in the PML(N) and the MQM, have said that the MMA’s success is deliberate ploy undertaken by the manipulators and that the actual ‘king’s party’ was not the PML(Q) but the MMA. Khawaja Saad Rafique is reported to have said this at a news conference, but a few days later we heard of reports of the PML(N) contacting the MMA at the highest level with former prime minister Nawaz Sharif calling up and congratulating Qazi Hussain Ahmed.
The Guardian article then goes on to say that it is worrying that the MMA had “virtually obliterated most of its secular rivals” in the Frontier. However, perhaps if one were to do a detailed analysis of the total number of votes cast per party and then multiply it by the turnout percentage we would probably get some interesting figures. For example, taken at the national level, according to the Election Commission of Pakistan the MMA received 19 per cent of all votes cast. If the turnout, say, is 40 per cent (by all means an optimistic estimate), then 7.6 per cent of electorate voted for the MMA. This obviously is more an indictment of our electoral system which seems to rely almost exclusively on the first-past-the-post principle rather than the more equitable proportional representation concept (applied only to reserved seats). Of course, this figure of 7.6 per cent assumes that those who did not turn up to vote were all non-MMA supporters, a fairly safe assumption since it has been widely acknowledged that the alliance did manage to mobilize all its vote-bank on a fairly large scale.
Anatol Levien then writes that the MMA could be expected to gain a “near-stranglehold” on the senate and that this “could block any continuation of the social reforms” begun by Gen Musharraf. This remains to be seen though it is likely that the MMA’s majorities in the two smallest provinces might more than offset the gains made by the PML(Q) and the PPPP in the larger provinces in terms of the representatives each province will send to the senate. However, the writer does correctly gauge that it is not sure to what extent the presence of MMA governments in these two provinces would undermine the hunt for Al Qaeda, keeping in mind that their already existed considerable hostility to these operations in FATA.
The rest is quite instructive, thought nothing new for most Pakistanis: “If the MMA does succeed in obstructing US goals, the Pakistani administration would probably come under intense US pressure to get rid of it. Pakistani governments have shown again and again that with the support of the army, they can indeed get rid of governments in Pakistan`s three smaller provinces.”
As for the Punjab, the MMA made very limited inroads, but these were still significant, especially in areas where the writer says there is “heavy military recruiting”. In fact, NA-49 Islamabad, lying next to Rawalpindi division – the army’s heartland – now has an MMA MNA.
In their reporting of the 2002 elections, The Guardian, The New York Times and The Washington Post generally took the line that the MMA’s big win would hand them control of two provinces that were key to the anti-terrorism campaign, not least because several senior Taliban and Al Qaeda figures are believed to be hiding there. Mian Aslam, the MNA-elect from Islamabad told The Guardian in response to a question that the MMA would “never” had over Taliban suspects to Washington. “The Taliban are our brothers. They are good people. The idea they are bad is a misconception of the west,” Aslam said, perhaps forgetting that a vast majority of Pakistanis found their style of governance, to say the least, repulsive and against all religious or civilized norms. Round about the same time the Jamaat-i-Islami’s Syed Munawwar Hasan and senior MMA leader told a press conference in Karachi that the Al Qaeda and Taliban were like “brothers” and they would never be handed over to any foreign power.
In an interview to The Observer, Qazi Hussain Ahmed said: “We are not extremists. We would like to make bridges with the West – but we want justice. Injustice is being done to Muslims in Palestine and Kashmir…. We don’t want to chop people’s hands off. We don’t want to make all women wear burqas. We live in the world. We are educated.”
The MMA win also, for better or for worse, shows that emotional slogans can sometimes be much better in garnering votes than discussing issues that really matter, like providing clean drinking water, better roads, sanitation, electricity, telephones, a safer and cleaner living environment or increased job opportunities. It remains to be seen whether the initial anti-US and anti-‘war against terror’ platform of the MMA gives way to more bread and butter issues.—OMAR R. QURAISHI (email: omarq@cyber.net.pk)
The rise of the MMA
The American and British press has shown a distinct wariness in the dramatic success of the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), perhaps understandably so, since this six-party alliance had an overtly anti-west agenda.
Writing in The Guardian on Oct. 12, Anatol Lieven, a senior associate of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, says that the increase in the vote for the MMA was “worrying and unwelcome, but it does not have to lead to disaster.”
Lieven wrote that the “key question” – presumably as far as America and the rest of the coalition allies are concerned – would now be how far an MMA government in the NWFP is able to block joint actions by Pakistan and the US against Al Qaeda. Several commentators speaking on various private channels like Geo, Indus Vision and ARY have said that since the decision to stay in the war against terror was one taken by the federal government that policy is likely to remain the same. However, one analyst did ask the relevant question that what would happen if a raid against a suspect Al Qaeda terrorist has to be carried not in FATA but in Peshawar? As in, what if the provincial government refused assistance? To this, the answer came that the federal government has paramilitary and military troops at its disposal but still it would be an unsavoury and embarrassing situation were an elected government to refuse assistance to Islamabad in such a delicate matter. Besides, maybe some people forget that it was the police that carried out the raid in Karachi that netted the much-wanted so-called 20th hijacker Ramzi bin Al Shibh.
Going back to this article, Lieven wrote that the MMA was a “very long way” away from gaining “a plurality, let alone a majority”. And then the point that has been made in the editorial columns of some Pakistani newspapers (including Dawn), that the alliance is not a homogenous/monolithic bloc but a “highly disparate and mutually antagonistic alliance” especially since it contains parties with varying degrees of militancy.
“Maybe hatred of America and of General Musharraf, and the joys of controlling provincial governments, will hold them together – but maybe not,” he writes. However, the very cynical among us, including some in the PML(N) and the MQM, have said that the MMA’s success is deliberate ploy undertaken by the manipulators and that the actual ‘king’s party’ was not the PML(Q) but the MMA. Khawaja Saad Rafique is reported to have said this at a news conference, but a few days later we heard of reports of the PML(N) contacting the MMA at the highest level with former prime minister Nawaz Sharif calling up and congratulating Qazi Hussain Ahmed.
The Guardian article then goes on to say that it is worrying that the MMA had “virtually obliterated most of its secular rivals” in the Frontier. However, perhaps if one were to do a detailed analysis of the total number of votes cast per party and then multiply it by the turnout percentage we would probably get some interesting figures. For example, taken at the national level, according to the Election Commission of Pakistan the MMA received 19 per cent of all votes cast. If the turnout, say, is 40 per cent (by all means an optimistic estimate), then 7.6 per cent of electorate voted for the MMA. This obviously is more an indictment of our electoral system which seems to rely almost exclusively on the first-past-the-post principle rather than the more equitable proportional representation concept (applied only to reserved seats). Of course, this figure of 7.6 per cent assumes that those who did not turn up to vote were all non-MMA supporters, a fairly safe assumption since it has been widely acknowledged that the alliance did manage to mobilize all its vote-bank on a fairly large scale.
Anatol Levien then writes that the MMA could be expected to gain a “near-stranglehold” on the senate and that this “could block any continuation of the social reforms” begun by Gen Musharraf. This remains to be seen though it is likely that the MMA’s majorities in the two smallest provinces might more than offset the gains made by the PML(Q) and the PPPP in the larger provinces in terms of the representatives each province will send to the senate. However, the writer does correctly gauge that it is not sure to what extent the presence of MMA governments in these two provinces would undermine the hunt for Al Qaeda, keeping in mind that their already existed considerable hostility to these operations in FATA.
The rest is quite instructive, thought nothing new for most Pakistanis: “If the MMA does succeed in obstructing US goals, the Pakistani administration would probably come under intense US pressure to get rid of it. Pakistani governments have shown again and again that with the support of the army, they can indeed get rid of governments in Pakistan`s three smaller provinces.”
As for the Punjab, the MMA made very limited inroads, but these were still significant, especially in areas where the writer says there is “heavy military recruiting”. In fact, NA-49 Islamabad, lying next to Rawalpindi division – the army’s heartland – now has an MMA MNA.
In their reporting of the 2002 elections, The Guardian, The New York Times and The Washington Post generally took the line that the MMA’s big win would hand them control of two provinces that were key to the anti-terrorism campaign, not least because several senior Taliban and Al Qaeda figures are believed to be hiding there. Mian Aslam, the MNA-elect from Islamabad told The Guardian in response to a question that the MMA would “never” had over Taliban suspects to Washington. “The Taliban are our brothers. They are good people. The idea they are bad is a misconception of the west,” Aslam said, perhaps forgetting that a vast majority of Pakistanis found their style of governance, to say the least, repulsive and against all religious or civilized norms. Round about the same time the Jamaat-i-Islami’s Syed Munawwar Hasan and senior MMA leader told a press conference in Karachi that the Al Qaeda and Taliban were like “brothers” and they would never be handed over to any foreign power.
In an interview to The Observer, Qazi Hussain Ahmed said: “We are not extremists. We would like to make bridges with the West – but we want justice. Injustice is being done to Muslims in Palestine and Kashmir…. We don’t want to chop people’s hands off. We don’t want to make all women wear burqas. We live in the world. We are educated.”
The MMA win also, for better or for worse, shows that emotional slogans can sometimes be much better in garnering votes than discussing issues that really matter, like providing clean drinking water, better roads, sanitation, electricity, telephones, a safer and cleaner living environment or increased job opportunities. It remains to be seen whether the initial anti-US and anti-‘war against terror’ platform of the MMA gives way to more bread and butter issues.—OMAR R. QURAISHI (email: omarq@cyber.net.pk)
#121 Posted by dionysus on October 15, 2002 11:54:27 pm
Myopic, Malevolant, Meglomaniac...add to that Mendacious and Moron and you describe Sameer to a tee.
Dionysus
Dionysus
#120 Posted by harimau on October 15, 2002 10:25:42 pm
Ref Subroto #118
[Re 115 Harimau ``There is a strong possibility that your sons-in-law might be named Swaminathan (Swami - God, nathan - master) or Doraiswamy (Dorai -Lord, Swamy - as before), which would be a MAJOR improvement over Fakhar. ``
Aha but then he could have a surname of Zhawar (the marathi equivalent of fuc..r) or could be named Gandpuse (pimple on bum) maybe even a Ghorpade (iggy the iguana).]
Anyone who marries a Ghati deserves whatever life dumps on them.
And you seem to be forgetting Dikshit and Ashole among Ghati names.
[Re 115 Harimau ``There is a strong possibility that your sons-in-law might be named Swaminathan (Swami - God, nathan - master) or Doraiswamy (Dorai -Lord, Swamy - as before), which would be a MAJOR improvement over Fakhar. ``
Aha but then he could have a surname of Zhawar (the marathi equivalent of fuc..r) or could be named Gandpuse (pimple on bum) maybe even a Ghorpade (iggy the iguana).]
Anyone who marries a Ghati deserves whatever life dumps on them.
And you seem to be forgetting Dikshit and Ashole among Ghati names.
#119 Posted by SameerJB on October 15, 2002 8:38:45 pm
There are two clear opinions developing among Pakistani press regarding the outcome of the election. While pre-poll rigging and fudging counting in selected rural seats is agreed upon by all, both opinions regarding MMA strong showing are exactly opposite of each other.
1. The government`s overkilling of PPP (P) and PML (N) left a vacuum filled by only other anti-Musharraf and anti-establishment force, MMA. Obviously this depicts the myopic vision of military establishment.
2. More popular among international and anti-establishment Pakistani diaspora press like South Asia Tribune are more convinced of MMA victory as much engineered by the establishment as PML (Q). Basically the plan was: If you support Musharraf or baradri system or lotas, vote PML (Q); if oppose Musharraf on any basis, vote preferably MMA over PPP (P) or PML N). This shows the extent military establishment is ready to go to keep their hold on power.
The second one ihas started to gain acceptance in the Pakistani media also because, a) they are not willing to believe military establishment to be so stupid not to calculate the risk of PPP (P) and PML (N) overkill in order to block these parties from winning. Morover, it is becoming clear that PML (Q) and MMA will ultimately join hands to form government at the center and control Punjab, NWFP and Balochistan together, and possibly Sindh too, if MQM could be wooed to join hands.
Another very strong reason being pointed out is that the results make everybody in the military establishment happy, given a strong presence of Islamists like General Aziz in the military. He has even given statement welcoming the election results. The so-called Liberal group in the military establishment is happy to keep PPP (P) out and Islamists are happy to have MMA part of the power now.
It becomes more understanding now that madrassah degrees were accepted as bacjeolar degree equivalent while bar at- Law from Lincoln Inn was unacceptable. The MMA was given much free access to politicking than other parties and reports are that in Karachi and NWFP, agencies openly supported MMA because PML (Q) had no chance of winning there. An article by Abdul Sattar in SA Tribune details the MMA activities with the help of invisible hands and MQM and PPP are providing further details of orchestrated victories of MMA in Karachi.
There you have it. MMA victory pleases Islamists in the military establishment and gives them something to cheer about following Lusharraf`s U-turn of longterm association of Islamists and fundamentalists with the military establishment in destabilizing elected governments and providing blood in persuit of Afghanistan and Kashmir policies.
The latest about prime minister slot is that Taj Mohammad Jamali, Farooq Leghari and Khursheed Mahmood Kasuri are top of the list unless MMA asks this position for Qazi Hussain Ahmed who has a very long History of collaboration with ISI, well-known and even disliked with Jamaat-e-Islami. Shaukat Aziz will be brought in as senator and keep his position.
There you have it. Between Musharraf, MMA and PML (Q), any chance of even negotiation with India about anything is out the window for the duration of this holy and unholy alliance in the making. The parties who opposed the creation of Pakistan are in bed with the party who basically run Pakistan dry through spending and ever present lotas (hypocrites and opportunists).
Already some incidents in Islamabad and other places have taken place that suggest things to come. Near Faisal Mosque, Islamabad, a group of girls were beaten up, reminiscent of Taliban style, by MMA workers for not wearing enough Islamic clothes. Police actually supported the MMA workers as people belonging to ruling party. similar events are taking place at small scale, yet, at other places. The limit of Islamic zealots is beyond control of even the leadership of MMA because they do not need orders to perform sacred duties.
Jamaat-e-Islami and Fazloo are already demandingg changes in PTV culture.
Good luck to women, girls, minorities and freedom loving people of Pakistan.
1. The government`s overkilling of PPP (P) and PML (N) left a vacuum filled by only other anti-Musharraf and anti-establishment force, MMA. Obviously this depicts the myopic vision of military establishment.
2. More popular among international and anti-establishment Pakistani diaspora press like South Asia Tribune are more convinced of MMA victory as much engineered by the establishment as PML (Q). Basically the plan was: If you support Musharraf or baradri system or lotas, vote PML (Q); if oppose Musharraf on any basis, vote preferably MMA over PPP (P) or PML N). This shows the extent military establishment is ready to go to keep their hold on power.
The second one ihas started to gain acceptance in the Pakistani media also because, a) they are not willing to believe military establishment to be so stupid not to calculate the risk of PPP (P) and PML (N) overkill in order to block these parties from winning. Morover, it is becoming clear that PML (Q) and MMA will ultimately join hands to form government at the center and control Punjab, NWFP and Balochistan together, and possibly Sindh too, if MQM could be wooed to join hands.
Another very strong reason being pointed out is that the results make everybody in the military establishment happy, given a strong presence of Islamists like General Aziz in the military. He has even given statement welcoming the election results. The so-called Liberal group in the military establishment is happy to keep PPP (P) out and Islamists are happy to have MMA part of the power now.
It becomes more understanding now that madrassah degrees were accepted as bacjeolar degree equivalent while bar at- Law from Lincoln Inn was unacceptable. The MMA was given much free access to politicking than other parties and reports are that in Karachi and NWFP, agencies openly supported MMA because PML (Q) had no chance of winning there. An article by Abdul Sattar in SA Tribune details the MMA activities with the help of invisible hands and MQM and PPP are providing further details of orchestrated victories of MMA in Karachi.
There you have it. MMA victory pleases Islamists in the military establishment and gives them something to cheer about following Lusharraf`s U-turn of longterm association of Islamists and fundamentalists with the military establishment in destabilizing elected governments and providing blood in persuit of Afghanistan and Kashmir policies.
The latest about prime minister slot is that Taj Mohammad Jamali, Farooq Leghari and Khursheed Mahmood Kasuri are top of the list unless MMA asks this position for Qazi Hussain Ahmed who has a very long History of collaboration with ISI, well-known and even disliked with Jamaat-e-Islami. Shaukat Aziz will be brought in as senator and keep his position.
There you have it. Between Musharraf, MMA and PML (Q), any chance of even negotiation with India about anything is out the window for the duration of this holy and unholy alliance in the making. The parties who opposed the creation of Pakistan are in bed with the party who basically run Pakistan dry through spending and ever present lotas (hypocrites and opportunists).
Already some incidents in Islamabad and other places have taken place that suggest things to come. Near Faisal Mosque, Islamabad, a group of girls were beaten up, reminiscent of Taliban style, by MMA workers for not wearing enough Islamic clothes. Police actually supported the MMA workers as people belonging to ruling party. similar events are taking place at small scale, yet, at other places. The limit of Islamic zealots is beyond control of even the leadership of MMA because they do not need orders to perform sacred duties.
Jamaat-e-Islami and Fazloo are already demandingg changes in PTV culture.
Good luck to women, girls, minorities and freedom loving people of Pakistan.
#118 Posted by subroto on October 15, 2002 6:04:15 pm
Re 115 Harimau ``There is a strong possibility that your sons-in-law might be named Swaminathan (Swami - God, nathan - master) or Doraiswamy (Dorai -Lord, Swamy - as before), which would be a MAJOR improvement over Fakhar. ``
Aha but then he could have a surname of Zhawar (the marathi equivalent of fuc..r) or could be named Gandpuse (pimple on bum) maybe even a Ghorpade (iggy the iguana).
Its a big bad world lets be careful out there...
Aha but then he could have a surname of Zhawar (the marathi equivalent of fuc..r) or could be named Gandpuse (pimple on bum) maybe even a Ghorpade (iggy the iguana).
Its a big bad world lets be careful out there...
#117 Posted by shammi on October 15, 2002 3:45:48 pm
Re: Dost-Mittar
``…I dont think a madrassa degree qualified…"
Wrong, you would be surprised. Musharraf`s government upheld a madrassa certificate as being the equivalent of a college degree.
``… MMA have been duly elected by the people…"
Perhaps you missed out on the criticism of the EU and the Pakistan Human Rights Commission that declared the elections to be `deeply flawed`.
I do, however, agree that the MMA should not only govern, but should one day come to power throughout Pakistan. That will be ultimate reward for MMA supporters who live in the comfort of liberal democracies while wishing a theocracy for the Pakistani people. After the creation of Bangladesh, this is the 2nd logical needed `endorsement` of TNT that is sorely needed. :) Who knows, the MMA might usher in free markets, capitalism, greater scientific achievements, greater integration with the rest of the world, increased Pakistani exports, a run for the money to Bangalore. Anything is possible, right?
``…I dont think a madrassa degree qualified…"
Wrong, you would be surprised. Musharraf`s government upheld a madrassa certificate as being the equivalent of a college degree.
``… MMA have been duly elected by the people…"
Perhaps you missed out on the criticism of the EU and the Pakistan Human Rights Commission that declared the elections to be `deeply flawed`.
I do, however, agree that the MMA should not only govern, but should one day come to power throughout Pakistan. That will be ultimate reward for MMA supporters who live in the comfort of liberal democracies while wishing a theocracy for the Pakistani people. After the creation of Bangladesh, this is the 2nd logical needed `endorsement` of TNT that is sorely needed. :) Who knows, the MMA might usher in free markets, capitalism, greater scientific achievements, greater integration with the rest of the world, increased Pakistani exports, a run for the money to Bangalore. Anything is possible, right?
#116 Posted by stuka on October 15, 2002 1:54:01 pm
Re Romair`s Post:
Quite a heartfelt one. You`re probably right about the unwillingness to cede power to the Mullahs by the educated elite.
Keep this in mind however...the MMA won a province today, what if they win the country tomorrow? The MMA does not recognize parliamentary democracy. What if they choose the path of democracy to take power but refuse to take that power when it comes time to cede it? Is it ``democratic`` to elect a government which will never have elections again.
I see your point about the mullahs never being given a chance too. Maybe they should be given a chance to rule Pakistan as well, just like the BJP proved itself to be as bad as any other party in India. After all, the governing elite of Pakistan from 1947 onwards has always played lip service to Islam for the sake of the masses while being quite liberal in their personal lives.
Maybe it is time for that dichotomy to end. Let Pakistan immerse itself in Islam the way Iran did. Let the Maulvis make Pakistan as ``Pak`` as they can with the implementation of Shariah and an isolationist foreign policy.
If the Mullahs then do good by Pakistan, the country would have found it`s way as an Islamic emirate. If the Mullahs end up like the mullahs of Iran, well at least the people themselves will rid themselves of the ghost of Islam. You may then end up dropping the ``Islamic`` from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a dichotomy by itself.
Quite a heartfelt one. You`re probably right about the unwillingness to cede power to the Mullahs by the educated elite.
Keep this in mind however...the MMA won a province today, what if they win the country tomorrow? The MMA does not recognize parliamentary democracy. What if they choose the path of democracy to take power but refuse to take that power when it comes time to cede it? Is it ``democratic`` to elect a government which will never have elections again.
I see your point about the mullahs never being given a chance too. Maybe they should be given a chance to rule Pakistan as well, just like the BJP proved itself to be as bad as any other party in India. After all, the governing elite of Pakistan from 1947 onwards has always played lip service to Islam for the sake of the masses while being quite liberal in their personal lives.
Maybe it is time for that dichotomy to end. Let Pakistan immerse itself in Islam the way Iran did. Let the Maulvis make Pakistan as ``Pak`` as they can with the implementation of Shariah and an isolationist foreign policy.
If the Mullahs then do good by Pakistan, the country would have found it`s way as an Islamic emirate. If the Mullahs end up like the mullahs of Iran, well at least the people themselves will rid themselves of the ghost of Islam. You may then end up dropping the ``Islamic`` from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a dichotomy by itself.
#115 Posted by hari on October 15, 2002 1:53:42 pm
IMHO:
Short term: Good. Because the religious parties have something to ``lose`` hopefully, there would be less ``jehad`` calls or religious blood letting on shias and other minorities. That way Mush has played a good tactical hand by just giving them marginal power but not all the power.
Long term: Not good. Reports indicate relig parties recd appx 25% of the seats which could keep them marginal for a while, but they would have enough time to consolidate and increase their cloud via perks of the office. It is also not good because as parliamentarians they would want to have access to classified info on nuclear and other sensitive issues and could pass on that info to Al-Queida types(not that they are doing it already with the help of other supporters in the intell community)
Short term: Good. Because the religious parties have something to ``lose`` hopefully, there would be less ``jehad`` calls or religious blood letting on shias and other minorities. That way Mush has played a good tactical hand by just giving them marginal power but not all the power.
Long term: Not good. Reports indicate relig parties recd appx 25% of the seats which could keep them marginal for a while, but they would have enough time to consolidate and increase their cloud via perks of the office. It is also not good because as parliamentarians they would want to have access to classified info on nuclear and other sensitive issues and could pass on that info to Al-Queida types(not that they are doing it already with the help of other supporters in the intell community)
#114 Posted by hari on October 15, 2002 1:53:42 pm
What happened to the Chinese equation since I understand one of China`s muslim area(xing...g or something) borders NWFP and with MMA`s ``strategic depth`` in Balochisthan they could start giving trouble to the Chinese front also?
Any comments? Me thinks, the whole thing about MMA winning was engineered for something big. God knows what?
Any comments? Me thinks, the whole thing about MMA winning was engineered for something big. God knows what?
#113 Posted by harimau on October 15, 2002 1:53:42 pm
Ref hamidm2 #60
[.............verily, the forces of allah are on the march ........... how do i officially convert to hindooism?..........and i am not setting a foot in filthy ganga, or putting that silly red paint on my forehead ........]
Listen, if you remain a Muslim, there is a possibility that one your two precious daughters will bring home a guy named Fakhar as a prospective husband...... I believe there was a candidate in the Paki elections named Fakhar Iman.
Can you imagine your friends and in-laws asking, ``Where is that Fakhar?`` This would be Life imitating Art, the Art being the movie ``Meet the Parents`` where the principal character is named Gaylord Focker.
By all means, convert to Hinduism. There is a strong possibility that your sons-in-law might be named Swaminathan (Swami - God, nathan - master) or Doraiswamy (Dorai -Lord, Swamy - as before), which would be a MAJOR improvement over Fakhar.
[.............verily, the forces of allah are on the march ........... how do i officially convert to hindooism?..........and i am not setting a foot in filthy ganga, or putting that silly red paint on my forehead ........]
Listen, if you remain a Muslim, there is a possibility that one your two precious daughters will bring home a guy named Fakhar as a prospective husband...... I believe there was a candidate in the Paki elections named Fakhar Iman.
Can you imagine your friends and in-laws asking, ``Where is that Fakhar?`` This would be Life imitating Art, the Art being the movie ``Meet the Parents`` where the principal character is named Gaylord Focker.
By all means, convert to Hinduism. There is a strong possibility that your sons-in-law might be named Swaminathan (Swami - God, nathan - master) or Doraiswamy (Dorai -Lord, Swamy - as before), which would be a MAJOR improvement over Fakhar.
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