The Election Burp

The title of article attracted me, so I thought to read it, after first 2 paragraphs it became confusing to me, I live in real world and like to talk in real sense. So my regrets to the author that I am unable to understand in full what she meant to state. Nevertheless, I looked at the replies to know what the discussion is going on about and read #39 rsridhar. First, with due respect to all, please use civil language and try to reason here not abuse. But than if democracy says so that let every one speak his/her mind, so be it, I am not for such democracy which is without respect, reasoning and justice.

Coming to some of the ``facts`` that rsridhar states let me bring him to reality, which the present land India normally keeps away from its citizen (such as maruti is Indian technology not suzuki of Japan).

Pakistan is arguably the most civilized country in the world as far as ancient civilizations are concerned; it is unfortunate that the present generation has been influenced by hollywood and bollywood civilizations which are mere fantasy and does nothing but mislead; the earlier the Pakistanis are out of this influence the better it will be for them. The present land India has no ancient civilizations, its not too old history is all tied to some of the Pakistani civilizations mainly from Harappa. From where people went and settled mostly in the South and some near Delhi.

I have been involved in this discussion few times with Indians, at UNICEF, CPNN and Melbourne University Forums. They have always tried to tell me that Pakistan is only after 1947, I tell them changing the name does not means changing the history, when they do not follow I give them example that if a father change his name today, it does not means that the children will lose parental hood relations. It is the land which is significant not the present names. Iran or Persia they have the same history because the land is the same.

Prior to Harappa in Pakistan, Indus Valley was the known civilization, which cultivated most of international trade relations in the region now comprising of Asia, Europe, China and CIS. It was because of Indus river, part of the present Pakistan, that travelers named the Pakistan-subcontinent as ``India``. Prior to Indus Valley, civilizations of Mehar Garh and Takht Bhai exists which dates back to 6500-8500 BC. Hinduism history is tied with Harappa era, some may argue that traits are found in Mohinjodaro as well, well I want argue – it may or may not be so. But for sure does not go beyond it to Mehar Garh or Takht Bhai.

The present land India has no significant archeological monuments other than build by Muslim rulers, based on which actually Europeans were amazed and decided to have trade relations with them. It was this reality that during partition, it was decided to partition ``India`` into Pakistan and Bharat (see the earlier maps prior to partition and immediate after). However Nehru and Mountbatin opted to select the title ``India``, the history of which really is in Pakistan, to the utmost dismay of Jinnah.

Further, please remember individual acts are not representatives of society at large. Yes when the entire societ is involved, things are bad as mass killings, abductions, etc. In Pakistan against minorities only individuals acts would be seen, in India it is on mass scale, which is diplorable. Anyway this was not the topic of the article, so therefore I feel this articleboard should not be used for these discussion. So ones again my regrets to the writer of this article.

With best wishes.

re:#37 by JS
The only garbage is in your mind and not in the subcontinent. There is a tendency among Pakistanis now to drag Indians into their thought process and label everything as ``South Asian``. That is understandable considering the abyss that Paksitan is in today. If your are a Pakistani, you may be excused for your ignorance.
Let me tell you that your glories in the past are tied with the ``hindu`` identity. Islamic conquests of Indian subcontinent is not a happy chapter to recapitulate. It is fraught with bloody mess. You say there are no manuscripts from the past. Are you a scholar? Where have you looked? Did you know that Nalanda, the world university for a 1000 years (at a time when India under a lot of Buddhist influence), was completely and utterly destroyed, first by Huns and then by muslim invaders. There are few manuscripts and the ones availble are in a language you may not care to learn. So, do not be a bloody food and say there are no manuscripts.
A visit to www.atributetohinduism.com may open your eyes. India`s past glory and prosperity is not mythical but factual. India had trade with countries far and wide, all the way to Egypt and Rome. Fall of Byzantium and decrease of trade thr` the silk route in 7th century led to fall in earnings for India. Muslim conquests, British Raj all continued to impoverish India in centuries that followed. More than a year ago, I had posted an article from ``The Atlantic monthly`` written in 1908 by an American how British impoverished India. For centuries India has been at the receiving end. Western imperialism flourished due to its colonies scattered across the globe. Only very recently,India seems to be waking up. IT revolution, coming of BJP to power are all indicators of Indians (esp Hindus) trying to reassert their pride. What shape this will take, only time will tell.
Sridhar

What was it that Bilal Musharraf, son of Pervez Musharraf, wrote on the Chowk? Yeah, ``He had no choice``. Read what The Economist has to say about how Musharraf used his only choice.


Oh, what a lovely ally

Oct 17th 2002 | LAHORE
From The Economist print edition


Getty





An anti-American grouping makes important gains that are likely to embarrass President Musharraf


“AMERICANS are the killers, the butchers, the murderers,” observes the mild mannered but plain speaking secretary-general of Pakistan`s Jamaat-i-Islami party, Syed Munawar Hassan. The views of Mr Hassan and his party are not new. Like much of the Muslim world they are convinced that the United States and Israel have formed a tag team for the purpose of oppressing Muslims, a belief fanned into fury by the American bombing of Afghanistan, Israel`s assaults on Palestinians and now the threat of war against Iraq.

Until now, such views could be treated as dissent, blasting Pakistan`s pro-western policies without injuring them. Pakistan has been among the most valuable members of the American-led coalition against terrorism. Last week`s general election may have changed that. The MMA grouping of religious parties, including Jamaat-i-Islami, stormed from the fringes of Pakistani politics into the centre, positioning themselves to govern two of Pakistan`s four provinces and winning more seats in the national parliament than they have ever done. There is a chance that this group will be part of the coalition in charge of the central government.

Opposition to Pakistan`s anti-terrorist alliance with the United States was the centrepiece of their campaign and will be their top priority in government, says Mr Hassan. The two provinces they look set to govern, North West Frontier Province and Balochistan, blur into Afghanistan. They are prime hunting grounds for refugee members of al-Qaeda, including, perhaps, Osama bin Laden. George Bush and Pakistan`s president, Pervez Musharraf, must now be wondering what the religious parties can do to sabotage the hunt. They are not the only ones in shock. The days of freedom of expression in parliament are behind us, laments Aitzaz Ahsan, a leader of the centrist Pakistan People`s Party. He recalls that in 1999 a handful of fundamentalist senators so intimidated their colleagues that only four voted for a resolution condemning honour killings of women who had eloped. Will tradition now smother modernity?

India, Pakistan`s perennial enemy, is also worried. Its foreign minister, Yashwant Sinha, called the gains of the religious parties a bad signal. How much closer will fundamentalists get to controlling Pakistan`s arsenal of nuclear weapons? The rise of the religious parties is the sum of some fears, not all of them. It brings an illiberal, anti-American element to the centre of Pakistan`s political arena, which cannot but complicate the war on terrorism. General Musharraf, who tried, though not very consistently, to curb the influence of religion in public life in the three years since seizing power in a coup, will probably stop trying.

Concessions to India over the disputed state of Kashmir, never imminent, are even less likely. But there is little danger of Pakistan becoming a rogue Islamist state, an Iraq with a hankering for martyrdom. Some of the religious parties are pro-Taliban, but are more worldly and pragmatic than their defeated Afghan brothers. Access to political power will make them more so. They must contend with many other forces, including rivals in the fragmented parliament, the armed forces, which can veto almost anything politicians do, pressures from the United States and divisions within their own ranks. Pakistan is in for a period of uncertainty, perhaps even instability, but not revolution.

The elections knocked Pakistan askew. The idea had been to restore democracy after three years of military rule without bringing back the habitual sins of corruption, political vendettas, masochistic economic policies and clashes between civilian and military authorities, which often ended with the army taking over. To this end, General Musharraf first secured his own position as president by holding a referendum in April, which almost no one but he regards as legitimate. He then amended the constitution to give the president the power to dismiss parliament and to give the armed forces a permanent role in government through a National Security Council, headed by the president and including the top generals and elected officials. Finally, he tried to engineer the election so that the parliament it produced would acquiesce in all of this.

Criminal proceedings against Pakistan`s two pre-eminent politicians, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, both former prime ministers, kept them out of the country. A split was arranged in Mr Sharif`s Pakistan Muslim League; PML(Q), the bit friendly to General Musharraf, got extra help from the administration and won more seats than any other party. The election had serious flaws, said observers from the European Union. Not serious enough, though, to deliver a comfortable result for General Musharraf. The religious parties were supposed to do well (a decent showing would make the general look all the more indispensable to the West as a bulwark against extremism), but not too well. As things turned out, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), the six-party religious alliance, won enough seats in parliament to deny the general`s allies, PML(Q) plus assorted others, a reliable majority.

General Musharraf`s other potential partner is the People`s Party of Miss Bhutto, which agrees with him about fighting terrorism but, like the MMA, rejects the constitutional innovations that place him above parliament. He seems to face a choice between a party with a hostile ideology and one that is merely hostile to his ambitions. Just what will emerge from the parliamentary scrum is uncertain. The price the People`s Party will set for joining the government, which may include dropping cases against Miss Bhutto and her husband, who is in jail, may be too high for General Musharraf to meet. Other coalitions are quite possible. A friends-of-Pervez government, including everyone but the MMA, the People`s Party and Mr Sharif`s faction of the Muslim League, might eke out a majority, though it would be too slender to last.

The current parliament, however, is unlikely to deliver stable government. Avowed foes of military rule have about half the seats. Even seemingly compliant civilian prime ministers have a way of turning on the generals once they sniff power. The current political line-up seems doomed to constant bickering over position and policy, which may end with the president dismissing parliament or even with the politicians getting rid of the president. None of this would be new for Pakistan. What is new is that the religious right will have a big say in what happens.

The official line, from the government, headed by General Musharraf until he gives way to a prime minister, from the religious parties themselves and from potential coalition partners, is that the MMA will use power responsibly. It is not fundamentalist or militant, merely religious, says Pakistan`s information minister. Some Pakistanis compare it to the Bharatiya Janata Party, the Hindu-nationalist party that rules India. The MMA downplays its radicalism, eager to be seen as a savvy player in the give and take of parliamentary politics. Even on its top priority, ridding Pakistan of American terrorist-hunters, the party sounds reasonable. It`s a process, says Mr Hassan of Jamaat-i-Islami, not a switch button.

Parliamentary polish does not quite obscure the MMA`s rough pedigree. Some of its constituent parties have a soft spot for the Taliban. One leader said that if the United States molested Mr bin Laden Americans in Pakistan would be attacked. Largely non-violent themselves, their advocacy of jihad has underwritten violence in Afghanistan, against Indian rule in Kashmir and even against other Islamic sects within Pakistan. In their commingling of violence and respectability they are typical of Pakistani institutions, including the army. Fazlur Rahman, issuer of the threat to kill Americans, heads the most powerful faction of the Jamiatul Ulema-i-Islam (JUI). Its madrassas (religious schools) educated the Taliban and supplied legions for its army. Its fierce creed, a puritanical brand of Sunni Islam, developed during the 19th century in the Indian town of Deoband, spawned even fiercer groups.

Sipah-i-Sahaba, a Punjab-based group started by former JUI men in 1985, has a record of killing Shia Muslims. It spun off an even more violent group, called Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, which is suspected of involvement in recent attacks on westerners and foreigners. Sipah-i-Sahaba is banned, and too disreputable for the MMA, but its leader, Azam Tariq, won a parliamentary seat in the southern Punjabi city of Jhang, boasting in a campaign brochure of loving the great soldier, Osama bin Laden. Mr Rahman is more politician than warrior. He was chairman of the foreign-affairs committee of parliament and an ally of Miss Bhutto, and has been named by his party as a candidate for prime minister.

His nickname, Maulana Diesel, testifies to a reputation for commercial acumen, which some suggest can be exploited in the cause of moderation. Like many stalwarts of the religious right, he is thought to be partly beholden to the armed forces, which, through its Inter Services Intelligence agency (ISI), has used religious parties for tasks as diverse as promoting Pakistani influence in Afghanistan, fighting Indian rule in Kashmir and clipping the wings of political parties at home.

Jamaat-i-Islami, the driving force behind the MMA, has had nothing to do with the narrow ideologies that spawn violence among Islamic sects; though it was a pioneer of promoting jihad in Afghanistan and in Indian-administered Kashmir. Qazi Hussain Ahmad, its leader, is more moderate than Mr Rahman, but perhaps less yielding. He is generally considered the MMA`s weightiest leader.

Its other constituents make strange bedfellows. Shias and Barelvis, an easier-going sort of Muslim, have both been victims of savage Deobandi attacks and answered in kind. Yet they have shown up in the MMA. The fusion of these and other groups is something of a miracle, brought about, some say, by the army, which wanted a counterweight to the mainstream political parties besides PML(Q). It betokens moderation. Or maybe, its adversaries hope, an eventual falling out. Their rising stake in democratic politics could tame them further.

This is what General Musharraf counts on when he declares that Pakistan will remain a key member of the coalition against terror. If the United States attacks Iraq, the MMA can express Pakistan`s rage from the podium, making it less likely that people will do so with guns. Despite the brave face some Pakistanis are putting on it, the MMA`s success has put it in a position to slow down, if not derail, the initiatives that have made General Musharraf a popular figure in Washington.

By just how much depends on the outcome of the multi-sided tussle now taking place in Islamabad, the capital. Fighting al-Qaeda is mainly the job of the central government. The brunt is borne by such agencies as the ISI, by the army and by centrally run militias such as the Frontier Constabulary. Some 60,000 Pakistani troops and a handful of Americans are ranged along the border with Afghanistan, most in the federally administered tribal areas of North West Frontier Province, which are governed by the centre to the extent they are governed at all. If the MMA tries to undermine the fight against terrorism, the government has hinted that General Musharraf`s National Security Council will block it. One message this sends out is that Americans ought to love the council, even though most Pakistani parties want to dismantle it. But the MMA can make trouble. Even if it sits in opposition, the MMA chief ministers of the North West Frontier Province and Balochistan will occupy two seats on the 13-member council. It could get more, through such offices as the speakership of parliament and the chairmanship of the Senate.

Most MPs from the tribal areas are MMA men who may, some analysts worry, provide havens for foes of Afghanistan`s American-backed government. In Quetta, the capital of Balochistan, newspapers report that a dozen local Taliban were freed from the district jail on instructions from newly elected MMA representatives. This could be a taste of sabotage to come.

And what of those nukes? The prime minister will head the National Command Authority but de facto control of the weapons rests with the armed forces, says Hasan Askari Rizvi, an expert on the Pakistani military. The army will not countenance an extremist as prime minister; if he rashly ordered deployment of nuclear weapons, says Mr Rizvi, the military would disobey.

If the MMA`s anti-American agenda is blocked, its domestic wishlist may become more important. It has called for the implementation of sharia, Islamic law, which it says can be done within the framework of the revived constitution. The party wants to banish interest from bank lending. Its aversion extends to the financial-aid programmes within Pakistan that are underwritten by the IMF and World Bank. Whether the MMA sits in government or opposition, it is hard to see a revival of a programme to modernise madrassas, which General Musharraf had already put on a slow track. In the North West Frontier Province and Balochistan state schools may come to resemble madrassas rather than the other way around. Pakistani liberals now fear a chilling effect that will close minds, hinder reasonable expression and make women timid.

Prelude or interlude? Those who fret about fundamentalists taking over used to be reassured by the religious parties` consistent failure to win more than a few seats in elections. That comfort is no longer available, but that does not mean that Pakistan is succumbing to fundamentalism. The MMA`s success arises in part from a fleeting alignment of circumstances: the hobbling of the mainstream parties, the Afghan war and the fragile alliance itself. It won a tenth of the popular vote, not much more than religious parties had won in previous elections. The difference was that this time they pooled votes rather than splitting them.

The vote for the MMA is not a vote for beards, burqas, and jihad, wrote one columnist, but rather a vote against imperialism and indignity. And against political fat-cats, some of whom shifted from the mainstream parties to General Musharraf`s PML(Q). The new affection could be strengthened by war in Iraq, or weakened by incompetent government, which would not be surprising with so many newcomers in the assemblies. Blacking out cable stations could alienate people. People love to see Indian movies, even in the villages, says Haji Muhammad Adeel, a candidate whose pro-American party was decimated by the MMA. After one or two years will everything return to normal? Not quite. General Musharraf has had three years to set Pakistan firmly on the road to modernisation. The elections confirm that he has failed.

My Dear Mohar11-I apologise if my comment has touched your sensibilties.Perhaps ,this is my fault that i could not make my point clear.To my mind the intellectual currents which shape and has shapped world civilization are two streams flowing side by side but never to merge rather they are obverse.One intellectual current which ushers in ``Thought`` revoplution is mundane-i mean thinkers who postulate theories by oservations.This lineage can easily be seen or determined from the great beacon of wisdom and knowledge-SOCRATES-even pre Socrates period is no less contributory to thought process.This is the start of the civilization of Hellas.Such is not based on conjectures or deciphered from the archialogical discoveries and ruins.The crete ,Athens. etc are visible.The Lyceum of Aristotle and Plato`s academy are still verifiable.Than Egyptian civilization-10,000 years old -the pyramids ,the great libraries,the papyrus writings are real and facts.This ``Thinking``process shifts to Rome.The Law and not Christianity is the light and road to civilization.Than comes marching the Abbasides in 8th century and Garnada-Spain-The real contribution is that they became conduit for Greek and other learnings to West in 14th century.Again that was nothing to do with Islam.those were teachers of great learning irrespective of bellief-chritians,jews.sabians coptics etc.With the sack of Baghdad ,Garnada and finally the fall of constantanople by a conqueror mehmet,the renissance set its feet in Europe,than with the light of free thinking and knoledge and wisdom, reformation took its sway all over Europe.
Now the second stream of thought is of divine knowledge.This starts from the first divine who declared that he is come from above to tell the truth.These sages ,prophets ,mystics,propounders of different religions and cult-their contribution to shape the world is massive but very sorry to comment that all is negative rather all such so called divine inspired wisdom always proved detremental to ``Thought``revolution.Always came in the way of human development as a whole,as world society.And no wonder that when west was dominated by Holy Roman empire-they do not hesitate to declare that period as ``Dark`` ages.After the age of reasons ,the age of enlightenment,and wise men like Martin Luther-Spinoza,Kant ,Nitchze ,Goethe.Hegel ,Bergasan-apart from great discoverers due to whom we are today enjoying the fruits of modern world .
Now back to ``Garbbage`` theory.With all due deference,sub continent is envoloped in darkness till today.Whatever name dropping one can do does not exceed few names and that is also after achieving western knowledge.They are no reckoning to people i mentioned above,though they are just few.Besides that nothing is there available to verify any claim.So much so that upto 300BC no original manuscipt is available.About Bhuddha etc,i will refrain to comment because i do not consider divines and their teachings as ``Thought`` revolution nor people of worldly wisdom.Their contrbution is negative.They might be solace to individuals or groups but definetly not world over.In sub continent we find few inscription or some paintings.Still Indialogy require research.Even when Alexander swept over from all the distance of Macedonia-what was there in Sub continent is shrouded in oblivion.Zero,astrology etc-i could not lay my hands on any orginal manuscript.I believe,none not only me.So from me no offence is intended.My effort is to call spade a spade.Do not live in conjectural past glories.It is a wake up call.Bury the past ,stand up and upright in thought prcees and do stock taking,shed away false truths,half truths and go out to search wisdom.Self proclaimed divine wisdom has never led any society to prgress but to dooms.No wonder the history of sub continent is littered with ivasion and devastation and same shamblled society is still continuing rather propagated by very people.
Note.China has civilization and nobody ever in that geographical area-called China-ever claimed to be sent by divinity.May it be confusius.Tao.or Lao etc.etc.Thus in the end, i would welcome any different view point if any!Nothing speaks better than visiable reality.Thank you.

#35 by JS
//...the geographical entity called sub-continent could never boast of any intellectual who could somewhat impact upon the world society as a whole....//
Wrong. Come on man - do you really need somebody to repeat the cliches!!! Gandhi and his non-violence has impacted the world so much so that it has been adopted in at least two other historical fights for freedom - black freedom in USA and in South Africa. Nehru had at least part of the under-developed world under his Non-aligned movement (however controversial that might be). GOing back in time - Indian subcontinent has inspired the whole world with its contribution from ``Zero`` to ``mysticism`` - from mathmatics to medical sciences. Its culture has impacted its neightborhood - east and south-east asia ( also called Indo-China). One of its numerous religions ( buddhism ) now covers whole east asia and china (even though it has been marginalised in the subcontinent itself).

There are so many ``thought revolutions`` in its 5000 year history that nobody has kept a count. From buddhism, jainism to gandhism, sufi movements ( not sure if it was originated here - but certainly thrived here). One of earliest promoter of secularism was Akbar the great. The subcontinent was at the peak of its civilization when the europeans were learning to walk straight.

Until some 300 years ago - the subcontinent was one of the richest regions in the world - why the heck do you think the goras covered thousands of miles of open ocean risking lives and limbs to look for India? They were certainly not looking for ``garbage of the world``.

The tragedy was that last foreign invasion proved to be the most disastrous for the subcontinent in many ways ( even though it did enrich it in some other ways - that is a very small consolation ) - it brought in poverty of all kinds , fractured the peoples and the land ( even though it also united them in some other ways). The current period is certainly the darkest in its long history - but don`t count the subcontinent out just yet. It has survived for so long and it might surprise you yet again.

Article only touches the tip of the iceberg.In fact whole subcontinent-India-Pakistan-Bangladesh-Srilanka-Nepal including-is the garbage of the world.The malaise is deep rooted in the history.Strange enough,the geographical entity called sub-continent could never boast of any intellectual who could somewhat impact upon the world society as a whole.Never experienced a ``thought`` revolution?Pakistan and democracy are two contradiction in term.Democracy is in essence a secular concept.How can democracy work in Islamic Republic?And Mr.Captain is ,like others,a faceless magical and mythical shadow of the past hundred of years,rowing with the same magical wand the rudderless ship.The people of subcontinents are bibilical sheep-why they should go to vote,they wait for God sent Messiah-unfotunately led by wolves.Therefore no lamentation.The cruel hands of time and space will do the natural justice as the same is done from time immemorial.

A tribute to the great Lahori poet of 20th century, Ustaad Daman.
---------------------------------------------------------
Fissile do, Missile lo

saadi paalicy bass ayho.
Fissile dao, Missile lao.

Camp kholo, RiyaleaN badle,
band karo phir DaaleyaN badle,
paise nu apna Khuda kaho..
Fissile dao, Missile lao.

khabay gwanDi nu dewo unglaN,
sajjay gawandi nu wando raflaN,
puThi je paindi jaapay baazi,
Dhihla munh kar, bholay ban rahvo..

Osamay nu pakRo, te Laden lukao,
doweiN paasay,behja behja karao,
eho je veile nai murh murh aunday,
dowiN hathi laddo bhoro ji bhoro...

Wazarat te Sadar nu akhaN wikhao,
kare oon aan je, thallay chuk laho,
jado loRh jaapay, jadoN jee chahwe,
apnay hi mulakh nu ja sar karo..
Fissile dao, Missile lao.....

bhukhay awaam da karo na jhohra,
Europe America ch rakho phera tora,
kade New York, kade Tora Bora,
aidhar di suno, udhar jaa kaho...
Fissile lao, Missile dao.
saadi paalicy bass ayho....

Very interesting article, Saima. Made me think...I enjoyed it :-)

Will give my thoughts later...

Ref Field Marshal #8

[In a national survey carried out by Herald magazine, the top problem according to Pakistanis was unemployment. Threat of war with India was second. Kashmir was around sixth or seventh. Return to democracy was ninth. ]

And exactly where did ``Establishing an Islamic Caliphate in Pakistan`` rank? Or, was that question never asked?

Ref Field Marshal #8

[People need to have some faith in the poor common voter. He/she loves Pakistan more than all of us, since Pakistan is all that he has. He cannot even migrate out of it. At the very least, respect his/her views. He has initiated a process of kicking out the status quo politicians.]

On the other hand, elections in Jammu & Kashmir are `farcical`. And if the Indian voters turn out the Congress in favor of the BJP, that is the rise of fundamentalism.

Really, I have seen more analysis such as these issueing out of your fundament than acceptance of the fact that there is literally no hope for Pakistan until there is a radical change from its policy of confrontation with India which started on Aug 14, 1947.

Ref faisaluno #15

[also think you give mush too much credit for newfound openness found in pak society. it was n.s who started the ball rolling by taking on the mullah over the changing of the sabbath. i am also optimistic that pakis will not give up on their freedoms. we came through zia and we will come through this. and eventually we will find our khatami.]

You may have to put up with several Asahollah -- er, Ayatollah -- Khomenis and even your Khatami may have to labor under your Khamenei. The latter has been explicitly provided for in the PCOs because the Prime Minsiter can be dismissed by the President.

Ref arjun_m #17

[Bin Laden backer seeks top Pakistan post]

CNN reports that Pakistan aided North Korea in developing nuclear arms in return for missile technology.

Looks like Dubya may have to revise his `Axis of Evil` to include another country.

A slight digression if I may;

From Dawn (Karachi)



PPP got highest number of votes


By Our Special Correspondent

ISLAMABAD, Oct 17: People`s Party Parliamentarians (PPP), who won 62 seats in the Oct 10 elections, have polled more votes than the PML(Q) which has bagged 77 seats, according to poll statistics released by the Election Commission.

The PML (Q) received 7.33 million votes, 24.81 per cent of the votes polled. But the PPP had 7.39 million votes (25.01 per cent).

The six-party alliance of religious parties, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA) which won 52 seats, including seven independents from Fata, polled relatively fewer votes. It received just over 3.29 million votes, and its overall percentage comes to 11.10. By comparison, the PML (N), which won a mere 14 seats polled 3.32 million votes (11.23 per cent), slightly higher than that of the MMA.

These statistics are based on the results of 269 out of the 272 seats announced by the Election Commission; three results have been withheld due to irregularities or complications.

More people cast their vote in last week`s election than in the two previous elections. They show high turnout in rural areas and villages; in some constituencies over 50 per cent. This figure is much higher than in the cities where polling was slow.

The EC said that out of a total of just over 70 million registered voters, fewer than 30 million cast their vote, which comes to (41 per cent).

The revised polling figures include votes cast by post, but without any significant difference in the overall party position.

I got taken in... Was just about to lose all hope in humanity (if Saima can be a Musharraf devotee, then....).

Thank you, Saima, for clarifying things. The sun will still rise in the east tomorrow (I think).

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Saima, Samina and Samina:
Very interesting read. First time I read it casually and thought that Saima is lamenting at the masses for not standing behind the Captain / Hero. I was going to respond last night by suggesting a hoard of potential Captains waiting in line at GHQ and that it is better for a nation to back institutions than individuals (Captains and Heroes).
Reading second time, I felt author lamenting at people not voting as one of the Saminas and anNy responded.
Now Saima says that it is tongue in cheek and a satirical look at Musharraf.
Dumb and stupid Sameer becharey ka tau ser hee ghoom gaya. Seven out of last ten articles on chowk are authored by names starting with letter S; bas qayamat aaney wali hae.

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*thumbs up*...great read as always...while there are some things i was a bit confused about in your piece i have to agree with one thing...the people who didnt go and vote have no right to complain that the mullahs are coming to power...one of my relatives, he did the same thing...refused to go and vote because he didnt want a nishaan on his thumb!!! later on he was acting up about MMA winning...i told him very nicely to put a lid on it cuz he didnt vote...his opinion simply does not count!!!!

that`s the problem with us...we`ll let just about anyone do us...ravage us beyond recognition...but we`ll still let ourselves be screwed cuz we`re just too darn lazy to go out and make ourselves heard....sensible people??? where??? show me plz and ill show u a cow tht can fly!!

rgds,
samina

//....you should never have been afraid of .... backing down on Kashmir. //

Sound advice from Saima. The general has one more chance now - to back down on Kashmir. Kashmiris have expressed what they want - through a very legit and successful democratic process. Kashmiris have voted for peace development - they don`t want no more paki/afgan/arab jehdis running around in their backyard. All that the general has to do now is declare innocently that he accepts the verdict of the people of J&K and slowly walk away from the kashmir`s jehadi mayhem - with his dignity in tact. He don`t have to accept defeat or the fact that so called Pakistani Ideology and TNT have failed miserably - the policy of ``thousand cuts`` has boomeranged badly.

He has the proverbial fig leaf now. He should grab the opportunity now.

This should not be too difficult for him - He has already done this once not long ago - when he walked away from Afganistan - under guise of protecting nuclear assets and Kashmir ``cause`` where as the reality was yet another of the paki foreign ``policies`` have boomeranged badly. Twenty years of investment in blood and money for some elusive ``strategic depth`` went out of the window in just two minute - all it needed was a phone call.

Kashmir ``cause`` is dead. Has the general enough grey cells to grasp the reality now. Judging from the past behaviour - I don`t think so.

``...I enjoyed poking fun at the sacred cows of Pakistani political priorities.``

hai tuabah!....I`m still shaking ten minutes after reading that...

PAKISTANI NATURE,

One thing good about romair is that he is the quetessential pakistani. He is educated was in the military, has been in the west. Only a few weeks ago he was proud that jihadists got only 3 percent votes, that was the rpoof that pakistanis are not jihadists. Now he is proud again because the same jihadists have won power, now thay are the liberal democrats, creatings jobs for the pakistanis. Again he is correct, the jobas are jihadic jobs, to become shaheeds so that the arab money flows to the families.

What is learned as part of the curriculum in the schools can manifest as chamelean, always jihadist at heart.

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re: faisaluno

thanks. just to clarify, the article is tongue in cheek and a satirical look at Musharraf. In his own eyes he has come to the rescue of Pakistan.

re: romair

really enjoyed your critique. It is a brilliantly pragmatic analysis...and I hope you are correct that Mullahs will be better than Feudals. In the meanwhile though, I enjoyed poking fun at the sacred cows of Pakistani political priorities. As for the critical part in the article being Islam vs. Secularism, I dont agree--My point is that Pakistani society has so far not raised its Collective Voice for equal opportunity, jobs and a better economy. And that is why I call it a magic kingdom.

enjoyed reading your article and completely agree with your description of south asia. however dont share your assesment about the architect of kargil. dont forget this is the guy whose actions directly resulted in the death of at least a thousand people and who has now conspired to hand the reins of the country to the worst elements of pak society; the jahil mullah and the feudal. dont think pak army is the sort institution that would take chances with something as unpredictable as the elections. if mush was really concerned about building a tolerant and progressive society, he would have taken at least minimal steps to insure some continuity after the elections. at minimum he could have insured the independence of ptv so that there was some checks on the new government. the fact that ptv continues to escape reform says something about the relationship between the rulers and the masses. there can be no better testimony to the mentality of our godfathers than their belief that they can continue to fool people through khabarnama.

also think you give mush too much credit for newfound openness found in pak society. it was n.s who started the ball rolling by taking on the mullah over the changing of the sabbath. i am also optimistic that pakis will not give up on their freedoms. we came through zia and we will come through this. and eventually we will find our khatami.

Oh Saima, in case my post wasn`t clear, I really like this piece-its just taking me some time to absorb it. It looks daring-so I`m excited!

Don`t understand all this ``captain`` baazi. Understand even less about the ``brave`` captain. But then, these lessons are not for me to learn.

{Overall, things may not be that bad. The military and the mullah - two natural allies and the ultimate sources of each other`s strength and legitimacy (or idiocy) - are far more likely to work together (as they have for the last tweny years) than the military and anybody else. Ideologically, the two legitimated institutions of ultimate coercive violence mirror each other; hence, at least in an administrative sense, some public validation of their cooperation may be a good thing for Pakistan. So long as the military remains scared of the US, mullahs are unlikely to cross certain boundaries. If that happens, Pakistani people may still come out ahead at the end of the day.

Even a faulty democracy in which the military disenfranchises 98% of the population, imprisons and expels 1%, and keeps the remaining 1% on tight leash is better than pure dictatorship. At least this may lead some people to develop the confidence that they can make a difference, that they don`t have to be eternally occupied by the people they themselves appointed to form their military. That belief is a powerful thing. When it arrives, nobody will need any brave captain to continue enslaving his or her nation. On this optimistic note, let me order bottles of mythical champa gi ni for everyone, the mullaists and the militarytes on one hand and the secularites on the other.}

ladyAna: just knew I had got the spelling wrong...thanks!

This was very well expressed Saima. I esp. enjoyed the poem.
(Just a minor aside - I believe u meant the Mullah`s cry of libertarianism).

``In this background, India and Pakistan fight for Kashmir with men, weapons, budgets and international image. Without world approval, neither one can win Kashmir. ``

Correction: We do not have to ``win`` Kashmir. We are happy with what we possess so we have already ``won`` it.

The article hits the nail on the head. Mush tried to please the Mullahs and the Americans. Should have made his choice and gone with it.

As I have said before, no power in Pakistan is strong enough to fight the Mullah and India at the same time. Join the Mullahs and fight India, or give up on Kashmir (the Indian part only, you don`t have to give up what you have already) and give the Mullahs a kick on their backside.

Your choice!!!

I am still waiting for the day when (us) Pakistanis stop looking at everything and every solution as a debate between Islam and secularism. It doesn`t make sense to paint every Pakistani problem within these boundaries. It certainly doesn`t make sense to paint every Pakistani solution within these boundaries. This is why people whose whole life revolves around some religion or some lack of religion scare me.

In a national survey carried out by Herald magazine, the top problem according to Pakistanis was unemployment. Threat of war with India was second. Kashmir was around sixth or seventh. Return to democracy was ninth.

There is no perfect solution for Pakistan, nor is there a perfect problem-solver. Countries at such infant stages of development go through repeatative phases of lesser evils (or at least lesser problems), until they find the correct solution. It is obvious the common Pakistani doesn`t really care whether he is ruled by a religious govt. or a secular one. He just wants one that can give him a job.

Hence the debate should be around which govt. can give a poor Pakistani more jobs. Not between which is more or less Islamic. The unfortunate part of all discourses on this website is that it is carried out by Pakistanis, who basically have everything in life, regardless of what kind of govt. Pakistan has (including me). I wish there was equal interaction from Pakistanis who don`t have anything (unfortunately they are illiterate and have no Internet connection).

Comments like, ``The others went off to protect Islam at the polling booths`` are actually a way of insulting such poor and common Pakistanis. I don`t agree with whom they have voted for, but I do understand where they are coming from. They did not vote for religion. They voted against the status quo, which has made their life hell (regardless of how, ``open`` it was for us Internet Pakistanis).

Our criteria for supporting govts. should not be who can make TV more liberal, but who can at least provide TVs to the poor (even if they are forced to listen to azaan the whole day).

People need to have some faith in the poor common voter. He/she loves Pakistan more than all of us, since Pakistan is all that he has. He cannot even migrate out of it. At the very least, respect his/her views. He has initiated a process of kicking out the status quo politicians. If the new ones do not deliver, he will kick them out as well. Anyone looking at this process as a negative, in an attempt to bring back the same BBs and NSs of the world, just because they allowed more entertainment on TV, is completely missing the point of democracy, and is being very selfish, and is greatly underestimating the intellect of the poor voter.

For the first time in my lifetime, Pakistan has a Naitonal Assembly that is less than 50% feudal. I never thought this would ever happen. If the % chunk has been taken by the maulvi, it is no big deal. Consider it a part of the process. Pakistan is not a Taliban or maulvi country. Believe me, the maulvi is a much lesser evil than the, ``liberal (or non-liberal)`` feudal. If for no other reason then because it is much easier to get rid of the maulvi, through a democratic process, since he can only motivate his voters to vote for him. He does not own the land they live on, and hence cannot force them to vote for him.

Musharraf doesn`t need to do anything now. Any major attempt from him now will only cause problems. He does not need to become the Captain of anything. He has done whatever he needed to, and I give him a lot of credit. Now, he should just move into the background, and let the elected folk run the ship, while keeping an eye on their corruption. The Captain of the Pakistani ship should be the poor common folk of Pakistan. We must respect their wishes and their vision, even if it may make our social life more difficult. Hopefully it will make their life a lot better. And in the end, we will all benefit.

im one of those 70 percent who didnt bother to vote. reading this i am feeling deeply ashamed

Hey Godot!!
thanks so much for the nice things you said. I really appreciate the praise from you.
Saima

#4 by godot:

[…t, sometimes I wonder about you!!! Musharraf a usurper? And Benazir, Zia and his child Nawaz self-less givers and motivated by the beautiful future of their country? What magical planet you live on?…]

you are not alone…everyday…at least once I wonder too:).

First godot-ji.…why even mention the names of those unmentionable plunderers and rapists?…did I write or hint about them in my post?…

…don’t you see?...the puppet and the puppeteers (the general or the captain here and the corps commanders) are making decisions over there on and for EVERY single Pakistani?…who gave them that right?

...t

Saima, this is just a wonderful article. Or it appears wonderful to me perhaps because I agree with everything you said. I see where you are coming from because I am coming from the same angle. Thanks for another great article!

t, sometimes I wonder about you!!! Musharraf a usurper? And Benazir, Zia and his child Nawaz self-less givers and motivated by the beautiful future of their country? What magical planet you live on?

Excellent. I really enjoyed reading this. Thank you.
``As for failure? There is no such thing where there is commitment.`` Golden words to live by.

saima:

when the captain
is but an usurper
and an impostor to boot
who owns neither the uniform
nor the medals
who has neither body nor soul
when the captain
is but a puppet
what do you do then
what would you do then?

lve,

t

Outstanding metaphor in the first para! Will get back to you on the rest....