Lessons from Constitutional History
Jawaid Siddiqi October 30, 2002
#54 Posted by MantoLives on November 7, 2006 10:47:09 pm
www.time.com/time/asia/2006/heroes/nb_jinnah.html
Mohammed Ali Jinnah
Pakistan, the nation the Quaid-i-Azam founded, needs him and his values more than ever
By Mohsin Hamid
My earliest memory of Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Pakistan`s Quaid-i-Azam, or Great Leader, is from my childhood. The electricity had gone because of load shedding, and I was doing my homework despite my grandmother`s insistence that this was bad for my eyes. My textbook was part of the curriculum assigned to all primary-school students in Pakistan, and it described Jinnah as a young boy, himself reading a book by candlelight at his home in Karachi, a hundred years earlier. I had heard of Jinnah before, of course; his name was ubiquitous in Pakistan, a country otherwise unsure of its heroes. But it was the small miracle contained in the notion that he—a character in a book—and I—a reader in real life—were doing precisely the same thing that struck me most, and has stayed with me ever since.
In Pakistan, Jinnah is venerated because his struggles on behalf of the Muslims of India resulted in the establishment of the country. But Jinnah`s true claim to greatness as an Asian leader is more universal: he sought to protect the rights of minorities through constitutional law.
Jinnah was a secular, Westernized, British-trained barrister; himself a Muslim, he married a Parsi, spoke mainly in English and wore European clothes. In 1920, he left Mahatma Gandhi`s Indian National Congress, of which he had been a member for two decades, not because of his own faith but because he believed Gandhi`s use of Hindu symbolism would encourage religious zealotry in politics. As Asia emerged from colonization, among the most vexing problems facing the continent`s nascent nation states was that of their large minority populations. Jinnah`s preferred solution was a legal one: constitutional measures ranging from electoral safeguards to guaranteed representation in state institutions. It was only when his attempts to achieve these measures failed that he began to campaign for a separate state for the Muslims of the subcontinent.
Six decades later, Pakistan has drifted far from Jinnah`s vision of a secular democracy. President Pervez Musharraf, who invokes Jinnah`s values in speeches, has little patience for democracy. The religious opposition parties reject as un-Pakistani the concept of secularism. And the inhabitants of smaller provinces like Baluchistan find themselves lacking the protection for minorities that Jinnah made his life`s mission. If one believes in the rule of law, mistrusts religious zealotry and opposes tyrannies constructed in the name of majorities, one should find it easy to see oneself in Jinnah and to empathize with his struggle. Much of Asia could learn from his example, none more so than those of us who belong to the state he founded.
Mohsin Hamid`s second novel, The Reluctant Fundamentalist, will be published next spring
Mohammed Ali Jinnah
Pakistan, the nation the Quaid-i-Azam founded, needs him and his values more than ever
By Mohsin Hamid
My earliest memory of Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Pakistan`s Quaid-i-Azam, or Great Leader, is from my childhood. The electricity had gone because of load shedding, and I was doing my homework despite my grandmother`s insistence that this was bad for my eyes. My textbook was part of the curriculum assigned to all primary-school students in Pakistan, and it described Jinnah as a young boy, himself reading a book by candlelight at his home in Karachi, a hundred years earlier. I had heard of Jinnah before, of course; his name was ubiquitous in Pakistan, a country otherwise unsure of its heroes. But it was the small miracle contained in the notion that he—a character in a book—and I—a reader in real life—were doing precisely the same thing that struck me most, and has stayed with me ever since.
In Pakistan, Jinnah is venerated because his struggles on behalf of the Muslims of India resulted in the establishment of the country. But Jinnah`s true claim to greatness as an Asian leader is more universal: he sought to protect the rights of minorities through constitutional law.
Jinnah was a secular, Westernized, British-trained barrister; himself a Muslim, he married a Parsi, spoke mainly in English and wore European clothes. In 1920, he left Mahatma Gandhi`s Indian National Congress, of which he had been a member for two decades, not because of his own faith but because he believed Gandhi`s use of Hindu symbolism would encourage religious zealotry in politics. As Asia emerged from colonization, among the most vexing problems facing the continent`s nascent nation states was that of their large minority populations. Jinnah`s preferred solution was a legal one: constitutional measures ranging from electoral safeguards to guaranteed representation in state institutions. It was only when his attempts to achieve these measures failed that he began to campaign for a separate state for the Muslims of the subcontinent.
Six decades later, Pakistan has drifted far from Jinnah`s vision of a secular democracy. President Pervez Musharraf, who invokes Jinnah`s values in speeches, has little patience for democracy. The religious opposition parties reject as un-Pakistani the concept of secularism. And the inhabitants of smaller provinces like Baluchistan find themselves lacking the protection for minorities that Jinnah made his life`s mission. If one believes in the rule of law, mistrusts religious zealotry and opposes tyrannies constructed in the name of majorities, one should find it easy to see oneself in Jinnah and to empathize with his struggle. Much of Asia could learn from his example, none more so than those of us who belong to the state he founded.
Mohsin Hamid`s second novel, The Reluctant Fundamentalist, will be published next spring
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#53 Posted by MantoLives on April 20, 2006 3:41:36 am
The governor general of Pakistan aka Jinnah enjoyed less powers than the President of the United States ....
He operated under schedule 9 of the constitution.
This is not a very factual article and flies in face of reality.
He operated under schedule 9 of the constitution.
This is not a very factual article and flies in face of reality.
#52 Posted by harimau on November 16, 2002 7:01:52 am
Ref punjaban #51
[Harimou, you`re beginning to bore me.]
I am not surprised to hear that you are bored by facts.
[Just for your information, I have not mentioned the word Khalistan or the concept of Khalistan even once. So stop jumping to conclusions.]
It is just the tone of your postings that suggest that you are a closet Khalistani.
As for your brother being picked up by the police, let me tell you a story. I was returning to the US on Jan 26, 1986, from New Delhi. Since the worthless Fakhrs running the Delhi metropolitan area couldn`t guarantee one`s safety in travelling to the airport at night, I was advised to take a cab to the airport at 9 pm for my 2 am flight. Arriving at the airport, I found that I would not be allowed into the terminal building till 1 hour before the flight time because of security considerations. Jan 26, if you care to remember, is Republic Day in India and the police expected some attempts at bombing the airport. Here I was, stuck in the Delhi cold in shirtsleeves, because neither the Hindus nor the Punjabis nor the UP Bhaiyyas, have the slightest clue about how to run a bus station, let alone an airport. However, they are all good at one thing, the result of which is the population boom in India.
That is my unbiased opinion about ``Hindu rule``. So, don`t jump to conclusions.
[Harimou, you`re beginning to bore me.]
I am not surprised to hear that you are bored by facts.
[Just for your information, I have not mentioned the word Khalistan or the concept of Khalistan even once. So stop jumping to conclusions.]
It is just the tone of your postings that suggest that you are a closet Khalistani.
As for your brother being picked up by the police, let me tell you a story. I was returning to the US on Jan 26, 1986, from New Delhi. Since the worthless Fakhrs running the Delhi metropolitan area couldn`t guarantee one`s safety in travelling to the airport at night, I was advised to take a cab to the airport at 9 pm for my 2 am flight. Arriving at the airport, I found that I would not be allowed into the terminal building till 1 hour before the flight time because of security considerations. Jan 26, if you care to remember, is Republic Day in India and the police expected some attempts at bombing the airport. Here I was, stuck in the Delhi cold in shirtsleeves, because neither the Hindus nor the Punjabis nor the UP Bhaiyyas, have the slightest clue about how to run a bus station, let alone an airport. However, they are all good at one thing, the result of which is the population boom in India.
That is my unbiased opinion about ``Hindu rule``. So, don`t jump to conclusions.
#51 Posted by Punjaban on November 12, 2002 12:06:25 pm
Harimou, you`re beginning to bore me. Just for your information, I have not mentioned the word Khalistan or the concept of Khalistan even once. So stop jumping to conclusions.
#50 Posted by harimau on November 12, 2002 7:22:13 am
Ref Parcheesi #45
[Harimau #44
You are one of those who should be ignored in cyber dialogue. Goodbye!]
What happened? You just noticed that facts are not on your side?
Same thing goes for Manjit #48, shibil #47, and punjaban #46.
As for you, punjaban, if you want Khalistan, just look at what happened to land-locked Kashmir in Oct 1947. But then, if you don`t know what happened in the 1980s, I can`t expect you to know what happened in 1947. Oh, in case you haven`t looked at a map, Punjab doesn`t have an outlet to the sea.
[Harimau #44
You are one of those who should be ignored in cyber dialogue. Goodbye!]
What happened? You just noticed that facts are not on your side?
Same thing goes for Manjit #48, shibil #47, and punjaban #46.
As for you, punjaban, if you want Khalistan, just look at what happened to land-locked Kashmir in Oct 1947. But then, if you don`t know what happened in the 1980s, I can`t expect you to know what happened in 1947. Oh, in case you haven`t looked at a map, Punjab doesn`t have an outlet to the sea.
#49 Posted by harimau on November 12, 2002 7:22:13 am
By the way, all of you guys rooting for the Nehru dynasty, here is a piece of good news. Rahul Gandhi is being made the leader of the Youth Wing or some such unit of the Congress. You have got the 4th generation of the Nehru family ready to open his own personal numbered Swiss bank account.
#48 Posted by Manjit on November 11, 2002 7:28:25 pm
punjaban, Harimau needed to be told that he is an idiotic, facist, racist thug. But reading your posts I get a feeling that you have been spending too much time with advani-haters who have their own agenda.
http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/national/20021111-0.html
Advani recommends Sikh jatha be allowed to visit Pakistan
18.44 IST 11th Nov 2002
By IndiaExpress Bureau
Overruling objections raised by officials, Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani has recommended that a Sikh jatha be allowed to go to Pakistan through the Wagah land route.
``Advani has directed that the file relating to the travel by the jatha be sent to the Prime Minister`s Office for a final clearance,`` vice chairman of National Commission for Minorities Tarlochan Singh said on Monday.
Mr. Singh said that the Deputy Prime Minister had convened a meeting to discuss the issue as the officials had objected to the jatha going to Pakistan by road to attend the November 19 birth anniversary of Guru Nanak.
Their objection was based on the ground that road and train travel between the two countries had been stopped following the terrorist attack on Parliament.
According to Mr. Singh, he told the meeting it would amount to discrimination against the Sikhs if they were to be denied an opportunity to go to Pakistan. No Sikh jatha, he reminded the meeting , had gone to Pakistan since the 1999 Kargil conflict.
``Advani was of the view that a special permission be granted for jatha to visit Pakistan,`` Singh said.
He said the Deputy Prime Minister also brushed aside the objections raised by various agencies.
http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/national/20021111-0.html
Advani recommends Sikh jatha be allowed to visit Pakistan
18.44 IST 11th Nov 2002
By IndiaExpress Bureau
Overruling objections raised by officials, Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani has recommended that a Sikh jatha be allowed to go to Pakistan through the Wagah land route.
``Advani has directed that the file relating to the travel by the jatha be sent to the Prime Minister`s Office for a final clearance,`` vice chairman of National Commission for Minorities Tarlochan Singh said on Monday.
Mr. Singh said that the Deputy Prime Minister had convened a meeting to discuss the issue as the officials had objected to the jatha going to Pakistan by road to attend the November 19 birth anniversary of Guru Nanak.
Their objection was based on the ground that road and train travel between the two countries had been stopped following the terrorist attack on Parliament.
According to Mr. Singh, he told the meeting it would amount to discrimination against the Sikhs if they were to be denied an opportunity to go to Pakistan. No Sikh jatha, he reminded the meeting , had gone to Pakistan since the 1999 Kargil conflict.
``Advani was of the view that a special permission be granted for jatha to visit Pakistan,`` Singh said.
He said the Deputy Prime Minister also brushed aside the objections raised by various agencies.
#47 Posted by Shibil on November 11, 2002 7:34:59 am
reading the discussion here has been very interesting. i imagine communal riots and massacres start in much the same way, with displays of ignorance, factual inaccuracies, and chauvinism on both sides. and harimau`s unrepentant and fascistic ethnic slurs betray the dark heart of ethnic nationalism. i thank you all for the enlightenment.
#46 Posted by Punjaban on November 10, 2002 10:24:10 am
Pardesi, good thinking. Can`t argue with an idiototic, facist, racist, Advani worshipping thug. Harimou, I`m not talking to you, I`m talking at you. Yeah, I read a lot of your previous posts thug. Forget about the Golden Temple for a second, and go read a few books yourself on the state-sponsored terrorism that took place against the Sikhs in Punjab. My 17 year old brother was picked up by the police whilst he was simply visiting as late as 1990. So buddy you take off your `Hindu`s rule supreme glasses` for a second and take a look at the facts. Each and every post you`ve written in full of hate, ignorance and facism. Foaming at the mouth again? Its a constant problem with you isn`t it? During Arungzebs` time, Jahangir`s time? What were your lot doing? Begging for protection from the same lot you consider stupid, what a short memory. Pathetic. More? I don`t think so, enough time has been wasted on you. Thankfully most of the Hindu`s I know are great people, otherwise what a horrible impression I`d have from reading your rantings. Die slow Hitler!
#45 Posted by Pardesi on November 10, 2002 7:10:46 am
Harimau #44
You are one of those who should be ignored in cyber dialogue. Goodbye!
You are one of those who should be ignored in cyber dialogue. Goodbye!
#44 Posted by harimau on November 10, 2002 1:12:33 am
Ref Parcheesi #43
In case you don`t remember historical events, you can always search for information on the net or -- gasp, this ought to be a major revelation to you -- read some books on the subject.
As to your comments about starving the rascals to death, you want to forget the fact that several visitors to the Golden Temple were held as hostages by Bhindranwale. As to smoking them out using some incapacitating gas, when you do not have a HVAC system (that is Heating, Ventilating and Air Conditioning) in place, you cannot pump in gas. If you fire tear-gas grenades, because of the various enclosures within the temple, one needs to send a force in and fire the grenades into each room and Bhindranwale already had his sharpshooters on the high points within the Golden Temple.
The fact is that the Indian Army, not being forced to recruit OBCs like you to meet some arbitrary quotas in its planning department, did consider the available options and took the best course of action feasible under the circumstances.
As to getting rid of Indira Gandhi`s descendants, that seems to be the only way to eliminate dynastic succession in India. Of course, brain-dead mofo`s like you do not have any idea what democracy means and are willing to perpetuate political dynasties. If only Aurangzeb had half a brain, he would have had a referendum and pathetic idiots like you would have confirmed him as Emperor.
Does your mom know you are posting on Chowk?
In case you don`t remember historical events, you can always search for information on the net or -- gasp, this ought to be a major revelation to you -- read some books on the subject.
As to your comments about starving the rascals to death, you want to forget the fact that several visitors to the Golden Temple were held as hostages by Bhindranwale. As to smoking them out using some incapacitating gas, when you do not have a HVAC system (that is Heating, Ventilating and Air Conditioning) in place, you cannot pump in gas. If you fire tear-gas grenades, because of the various enclosures within the temple, one needs to send a force in and fire the grenades into each room and Bhindranwale already had his sharpshooters on the high points within the Golden Temple.
The fact is that the Indian Army, not being forced to recruit OBCs like you to meet some arbitrary quotas in its planning department, did consider the available options and took the best course of action feasible under the circumstances.
As to getting rid of Indira Gandhi`s descendants, that seems to be the only way to eliminate dynastic succession in India. Of course, brain-dead mofo`s like you do not have any idea what democracy means and are willing to perpetuate political dynasties. If only Aurangzeb had half a brain, he would have had a referendum and pathetic idiots like you would have confirmed him as Emperor.
Does your mom know you are posting on Chowk?
#43 Posted by Pardesi on November 9, 2002 7:19:41 am
#32 by harimau on November 4, 2002 10:26pm PT
Harimau, you are right that Sikhs do not have half a brain. You and your kind are the smarter ones. In your ideal and efficient world, when a woman commits crime, you guys will kill her son or grandchildren. If a “thug” hides at historical or religious site, you will destroy the place to get him rather than close all entrances and starve the rascals to death. If some bodyguards kill a Prime Minister, you will kill thousands of innocent civilians with official approval. You are indeed part of a superior culture and are at a higher level of evolution!
I wish you and your kind of brainy fellows a very happy and prosperous future given your ethos and justice system.
Harimau, you are right that Sikhs do not have half a brain. You and your kind are the smarter ones. In your ideal and efficient world, when a woman commits crime, you guys will kill her son or grandchildren. If a “thug” hides at historical or religious site, you will destroy the place to get him rather than close all entrances and starve the rascals to death. If some bodyguards kill a Prime Minister, you will kill thousands of innocent civilians with official approval. You are indeed part of a superior culture and are at a higher level of evolution!
I wish you and your kind of brainy fellows a very happy and prosperous future given your ethos and justice system.
#42 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 7, 2002 11:02:16 am
punjaban#41 Enjoy ur visit. Just wanted to emphasize that talking to friends, looking externally, visiting briefly can give only inaccurate idea of a society. Real nature of people becomes understood only by carefully seeing what historical stories impressionable children are taught, what languages little children learn in schools, what they are told are society`s ideals, what groups are children are taught to be `in group` and `out group`, what memories of 200, 300, 1000 year old are used to motivate people. This information is difficult to get unless one becomes part of a society and its too very late. Bengalis have had very bitter experience for the emotional decision we made in 1947.
nawaid#40, no matter how hard you try, that Pakistani soul inside you has been sold to an alien culture. You are incapable of appreciating your mother culture. Some pakistanis learn to hide their soul better than others but you are all the same.
nawaid#40, no matter how hard you try, that Pakistani soul inside you has been sold to an alien culture. You are incapable of appreciating your mother culture. Some pakistanis learn to hide their soul better than others but you are all the same.
#41 Posted by Punjaban on November 7, 2002 9:31:05 am
Waheeduzz #39, it would be my first visit to Pak and I am prepared only to be surprised. You are certainly right about Punjabi in schools, its not exactly promoted, and although its an option at higher level education, thats no consolation.
Nawaid before I answer your question in any detail, please could you explain to me what you think Punjabi cluture is, and if Basant, Bhangra, Abrar are not part of that culture then what category do you put them under?
Nawaid before I answer your question in any detail, please could you explain to me what you think Punjabi cluture is, and if Basant, Bhangra, Abrar are not part of that culture then what category do you put them under?
#40 Posted by nawaid on November 6, 2002 8:44:17 am
#38 by punjaban:
all information u gave absloutly right..in recent years Basant has become major event in Lahore and related cities....yeah no doubt its a fun . and i been to that once........my question is whether Basant and Bhangray are the real punjabi culture we should preserve and promote?...coz when we read in newspaper and watch on TV, Lahore`s intelectuals talk about promoting `` Heer Ranjha`` Baba Bhullay Shah , punjabi dresses , Lahore`s old city area, the old style houses, Lahore`s Mughal history etc
Most punjabi culture expert denied Basant as culture, they always labled it as Hindu tradition..... and may be it is...........its like pop singer Abrar Ul Haq sings punjabi songs which are very good and famous but no one claim these songs as real punjabi cultural songs........and most punjabi ppl apply same thing for Basant...........althoguh popular but not real punjabi culture and should not be promoted.
Eid is quitter affair....of course its an islamic tradition which mostly based on simplicity......whether ppl follow that simplicity or not it should b simple.
all information u gave absloutly right..in recent years Basant has become major event in Lahore and related cities....yeah no doubt its a fun . and i been to that once........my question is whether Basant and Bhangray are the real punjabi culture we should preserve and promote?...coz when we read in newspaper and watch on TV, Lahore`s intelectuals talk about promoting `` Heer Ranjha`` Baba Bhullay Shah , punjabi dresses , Lahore`s old city area, the old style houses, Lahore`s Mughal history etc
Most punjabi culture expert denied Basant as culture, they always labled it as Hindu tradition..... and may be it is...........its like pop singer Abrar Ul Haq sings punjabi songs which are very good and famous but no one claim these songs as real punjabi cultural songs........and most punjabi ppl apply same thing for Basant...........althoguh popular but not real punjabi culture and should not be promoted.
Eid is quitter affair....of course its an islamic tradition which mostly based on simplicity......whether ppl follow that simplicity or not it should b simple.
#39 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 5, 2002 9:58:01 pm
Punjaban #38, will this be the first time you will be setting foot in Pakistan? Give us a report on how Punjabi is being promoted there in Punjabi school system. My opinion of Pakistan is completely different from your. Any unbiased information will be appreciated.
#38 Posted by Punjaban on November 5, 2002 7:41:45 pm
`preserving culture....if punjabi culture is , Basant, Arif Lohar and Bhangray then... i dont see any one intrested in preserving it........`
I`ve learned that there are people such as Nawaid who even whilst living in Pakistan don`t realise what is going on right under their nose. Basant is celebrated in West Punjab with a fervour that increases each and every year...so much so that today even major corporations in Pakistan is clamouring to get their banners on the most prominent roofs in Lahore. Seems that even Eid is a quieter affair.
I draw your attention to a few pieces of of just two of many similar articles written on Basant this year.
********************************************************
From all accounts, Basant this year was utter fun in Pakistan. Lahore looked quite spectacular. The weather was divine and there was a tangible feeling of goodwill across the city. Several Pakistani writers have gone to great lengths to pay tributes to Basant. Mir Jamilur Rahman, for instance, writes, ``The idea that the people should have pleasure has always been shocking to the clergy. Mullahs put forward a number of arguments to dissuade the common people from kite flying. It was said that it is a Hindu festival, many lose lives and many others are injured celebrating it, it causes wasteful expenditure and is thus irreligious, and so on. However, the Lahoris rejected all these sanctimonious sermons and celebrated Basant with a zest that was never witnessed before``.
*****************************************************
The Festival of Basant (Sanskrit for Spring) was celebrated with great enthusiasm and fervour across Punjab and the rest of Pakistan in early February. Lahore formed the centre of celebrations with the entire city coming out to celebrate this joyous occasion. Basant is a popular and ancient festival and kite flying is an important activity associated with Basant. Contests in which kite fliers try to snap the kite of the rival high above, began overnight with search-lights chasing the kites.
Every success was celebrated with the Bhangra dance and beating of dhols, followed by a feast. Automatic weapons used to be fired also on the occasion but the military Government banned the terrifying practice two years ago.
Thousands of outsiders joined the Zindadilan-e-Lahore (fun-lovers of Lahore) in celebrating the festival which Islamic zealots had been campaigning to be banned as an un-Islamic activity. However the Islamists’ argument that it is a Hindu-Sikh festival impressed neither the Lahore High Court, which rejected such a plea last week, nor the Lahoris who go on celebrating Basant on a grander scale each year
**********************************************************
I suggest you pay Lahore a visit this year at Basant, fly a kite, and try not to get trodden on in the rush of the partiers celebrating who are obviously doing so because they are not interested in preserving this festival, punjabi music, bhangra and let me add Punjabi literature.
***Its interesting to note that in recent years Basant has been celebrated with 10 times the zeal of that in East Punjab,India. I know where I`m headed this years Basant.
I`ve learned that there are people such as Nawaid who even whilst living in Pakistan don`t realise what is going on right under their nose. Basant is celebrated in West Punjab with a fervour that increases each and every year...so much so that today even major corporations in Pakistan is clamouring to get their banners on the most prominent roofs in Lahore. Seems that even Eid is a quieter affair.
I draw your attention to a few pieces of of just two of many similar articles written on Basant this year.
********************************************************
From all accounts, Basant this year was utter fun in Pakistan. Lahore looked quite spectacular. The weather was divine and there was a tangible feeling of goodwill across the city. Several Pakistani writers have gone to great lengths to pay tributes to Basant. Mir Jamilur Rahman, for instance, writes, ``The idea that the people should have pleasure has always been shocking to the clergy. Mullahs put forward a number of arguments to dissuade the common people from kite flying. It was said that it is a Hindu festival, many lose lives and many others are injured celebrating it, it causes wasteful expenditure and is thus irreligious, and so on. However, the Lahoris rejected all these sanctimonious sermons and celebrated Basant with a zest that was never witnessed before``.
*****************************************************
The Festival of Basant (Sanskrit for Spring) was celebrated with great enthusiasm and fervour across Punjab and the rest of Pakistan in early February. Lahore formed the centre of celebrations with the entire city coming out to celebrate this joyous occasion. Basant is a popular and ancient festival and kite flying is an important activity associated with Basant. Contests in which kite fliers try to snap the kite of the rival high above, began overnight with search-lights chasing the kites.
Every success was celebrated with the Bhangra dance and beating of dhols, followed by a feast. Automatic weapons used to be fired also on the occasion but the military Government banned the terrifying practice two years ago.
Thousands of outsiders joined the Zindadilan-e-Lahore (fun-lovers of Lahore) in celebrating the festival which Islamic zealots had been campaigning to be banned as an un-Islamic activity. However the Islamists’ argument that it is a Hindu-Sikh festival impressed neither the Lahore High Court, which rejected such a plea last week, nor the Lahoris who go on celebrating Basant on a grander scale each year
**********************************************************
I suggest you pay Lahore a visit this year at Basant, fly a kite, and try not to get trodden on in the rush of the partiers celebrating who are obviously doing so because they are not interested in preserving this festival, punjabi music, bhangra and let me add Punjabi literature.
***Its interesting to note that in recent years Basant has been celebrated with 10 times the zeal of that in East Punjab,India. I know where I`m headed this years Basant.
#37 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 5, 2002 12:34:15 pm
nawaid #36
>ok let see what we hav learned...
>preserving culture....if punjabi culture is , Basant, Arif Lohar and >Bhangray then... i dont see any one intrested in preserving it........
You havent learned anything. I hope Punjaban has.
>ok let see what we hav learned...
>preserving culture....if punjabi culture is , Basant, Arif Lohar and >Bhangray then... i dont see any one intrested in preserving it........
You havent learned anything. I hope Punjaban has.
#36 Posted by nawaid on November 5, 2002 9:15:06 am
.>>>>>Now you are taught that Urdu is essential for Islam and Pakistan<<<<<
i never been told any thing like that,,,may b in Punjab and u ppl believed that?, if thats the case then ........
>>>Even after losing more than half the country you have not learnt any lesson<<<<<<
ok let see what we hav learned...Bengali had to be national language of the country and Mr Jinnah who was a dictator and couldnt even speak URDU was in love with Nazir Akbar Abadi made the mistake .and i also leran ,if we dont have 2004 as Punabi year then soon we will be loosing Punjab as well or Punjab will loose other parts of country.......
preserving culture....if punjabi culture is , Basant, Arif Lohar and Bhangray then... i dont see any one intrested in preserving it........
i never been told any thing like that,,,may b in Punjab and u ppl believed that?, if thats the case then ........
>>>Even after losing more than half the country you have not learnt any lesson<<<<<<
ok let see what we hav learned...Bengali had to be national language of the country and Mr Jinnah who was a dictator and couldnt even speak URDU was in love with Nazir Akbar Abadi made the mistake .and i also leran ,if we dont have 2004 as Punabi year then soon we will be loosing Punjab as well or Punjab will loose other parts of country.......
preserving culture....if punjabi culture is , Basant, Arif Lohar and Bhangray then... i dont see any one intrested in preserving it........
#34 Posted by Shibil on November 4, 2002 11:29:13 pm
>Are you saying that preserving mother tongue and unique ancestral >culture is distracting and divisive political act and learning Urdu is not?
no, thats not what i said at all. if you re-read the post the first point i stressed was the importance of preserving unique languages and cultures. that the minority urdu language was forced into being the national language in a multi-linguistic state was absurd.
what i wanted to equally emphasise was the second point; that in india, pakistan and bangladesh, the most important language still remains english because it is the institutional language. access to courts and justice remains the preserve of elites who can communicate in english. even the supreme charters of these nations, ie their constitutions, which are meant to define us in terms of national character and aspirations, is in english. even employability in these countries often depends upon mastery of this language.
therefore, it is english which has been the biggest tool of social exclusion and marginalisation. but there is no comparable outcry at this state of affairs. hence, i meant to say that certain langauges seem to be more equal than others and it is this status quo is never challenged. what remains is divisive and manipulative politics and politicians using charged slogans and jingoisms for their own strategic gains, and the price in human misery which they extract.
no, thats not what i said at all. if you re-read the post the first point i stressed was the importance of preserving unique languages and cultures. that the minority urdu language was forced into being the national language in a multi-linguistic state was absurd.
what i wanted to equally emphasise was the second point; that in india, pakistan and bangladesh, the most important language still remains english because it is the institutional language. access to courts and justice remains the preserve of elites who can communicate in english. even the supreme charters of these nations, ie their constitutions, which are meant to define us in terms of national character and aspirations, is in english. even employability in these countries often depends upon mastery of this language.
therefore, it is english which has been the biggest tool of social exclusion and marginalisation. but there is no comparable outcry at this state of affairs. hence, i meant to say that certain langauges seem to be more equal than others and it is this status quo is never challenged. what remains is divisive and manipulative politics and politicians using charged slogans and jingoisms for their own strategic gains, and the price in human misery which they extract.
#33 Posted by harimau on November 4, 2002 10:26:10 pm
Ref Pardesi #21
[Harimau, you are mixing up timeline to justify your argument with Punjaban]
Am I? Or, are you deliberately ignoring the truth to paint a one-sided picture? Let us see.
[It’s government’s responsibility to maintain law and order. If Bhindrawale was responsible for innocent Hindus being pulled out of buses and killing them, the federal government had right to send army in Punjab and suppress the movement. Still there was no need to go inside the temple. If you recently followed events in Israel, the Israelis did not go inside the Christian holy place when Palestinians were holed up inside. I guess, Jews cared about Christian world’s feelings. Sikhs are only 1.5% in number, so Indira could afford to screw them at will.]
Bhindranwale was given several months of time to get out of the Golden Temple. He used the time to stockpile food and water, bring in sandbags to fortify his positions, and finally took innocent pilgrims hostage. Looking back today, you could even say that like the Russians did at the theater in Moscow, India should have used some incapacitating gas against Bhindranwale. It is all a question of what weapons one has on hand and what the opponent`s stand is. The Palestinians were in a mood not to fight and that is why they gave up in less than a week. The Khalistanis were in no mood to give up and that is why they didn`t come out even after several months. So don`t compare the two situations.
[On the other hand, when innocent Sikhs were burned alive by thousands in New Delhi and many other cities what did the army and federal government did to stop the carnage? Rajiv was in New Delhi and so was the whole democratic apparatus. Did any inquiry take place immediately afterwards to make sure that these incidents do not take place? Looks like there was no need to. His mother’s life was equal to thousands of “unemployed and unemployable (your words)” residents of New Delhi.]
You have no monopoly on outrage at the indjustice heaped on the Sikhs in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi`s assassination. If you go back and read my earliest posts, I have always held that people who orchestrated the Delhi riots should be hanged in public.
[Oh, but Indira and Rajiv were only part of that immoral and corrupt Nehru-Gandhi dynasty and a rotten party known as Congress-I, but rest of us Indians are highly ethical and moral. Right? How come then Rajiv got most parliament seats just after a month or so after the Sikh massacres? How come there are chowks and airports named after Rajiv and Indira while there is no state level memorial in New Delhi for 1984 innocent victims that could serve as a reminder to future governments in New Delhi that for God sake have some shame and maintain law and order at least in your capital?]
The real problem is that the Sikhs took out their anger on Indira Gandhi. If you guys had half a brain -- yeah, take that as an ethnic slur; I am not going to apologize for it -- you would have finished off Rajiv Gandhi, his kids and Varun Gandhi (Sanjay Gandhi`s son). After all, Indira had at the most another 10 years of life left and wiping out her descendants would have broken her spirit. Instead, the task of finishing off Rajiv Gandhi was carried out by the only clear-thinking terrorist group in South Asia, namely, the LTTE. Once again, Madrasis rule!
By the way, Congress and Rajiv Gandhi still didn`t get anywhere in the elections in Tamil Nadu. So, don`t lump me with the illiterates you guys breed in Bimaru.
[Harimau, admit that despite all the Vedas, Purans, Geetas and 5000 year civilization bull crap, our people in the sub-continent are capable of equally heinous crimes, given an appropriate opportunity and weaker opponent, as we accuse Arabs of all the time on this board. Sikhs need no proof of that.]
Are you telling me the Sikhs are NOT a martial race, a Sikh is NOT worth ten Hindus?
[PS: Indira Gandhi was not the first one to use same faith commander in-charge for an operation that can be perceived as operation against that faith. Akbar raped Rajputs through Man Singh and Aurangzeb used minor Hindu rulers to go after Guru Gobind Singh. British did it all the time against us. Get it? Sell that snake oil somewhere else.]
I am not the one selling any snake oil. The fact is that 98% of the Sikhs know exactly what kind of thugs Bhindranwale and his followers were and were glad to be rid of him.
How come we don`t have any continuing terrorism in Punjab if all you Sikhs think that the Government of India screwed you royally?
[Harimau, you are mixing up timeline to justify your argument with Punjaban]
Am I? Or, are you deliberately ignoring the truth to paint a one-sided picture? Let us see.
[It’s government’s responsibility to maintain law and order. If Bhindrawale was responsible for innocent Hindus being pulled out of buses and killing them, the federal government had right to send army in Punjab and suppress the movement. Still there was no need to go inside the temple. If you recently followed events in Israel, the Israelis did not go inside the Christian holy place when Palestinians were holed up inside. I guess, Jews cared about Christian world’s feelings. Sikhs are only 1.5% in number, so Indira could afford to screw them at will.]
Bhindranwale was given several months of time to get out of the Golden Temple. He used the time to stockpile food and water, bring in sandbags to fortify his positions, and finally took innocent pilgrims hostage. Looking back today, you could even say that like the Russians did at the theater in Moscow, India should have used some incapacitating gas against Bhindranwale. It is all a question of what weapons one has on hand and what the opponent`s stand is. The Palestinians were in a mood not to fight and that is why they gave up in less than a week. The Khalistanis were in no mood to give up and that is why they didn`t come out even after several months. So don`t compare the two situations.
[On the other hand, when innocent Sikhs were burned alive by thousands in New Delhi and many other cities what did the army and federal government did to stop the carnage? Rajiv was in New Delhi and so was the whole democratic apparatus. Did any inquiry take place immediately afterwards to make sure that these incidents do not take place? Looks like there was no need to. His mother’s life was equal to thousands of “unemployed and unemployable (your words)” residents of New Delhi.]
You have no monopoly on outrage at the indjustice heaped on the Sikhs in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi`s assassination. If you go back and read my earliest posts, I have always held that people who orchestrated the Delhi riots should be hanged in public.
[Oh, but Indira and Rajiv were only part of that immoral and corrupt Nehru-Gandhi dynasty and a rotten party known as Congress-I, but rest of us Indians are highly ethical and moral. Right? How come then Rajiv got most parliament seats just after a month or so after the Sikh massacres? How come there are chowks and airports named after Rajiv and Indira while there is no state level memorial in New Delhi for 1984 innocent victims that could serve as a reminder to future governments in New Delhi that for God sake have some shame and maintain law and order at least in your capital?]
The real problem is that the Sikhs took out their anger on Indira Gandhi. If you guys had half a brain -- yeah, take that as an ethnic slur; I am not going to apologize for it -- you would have finished off Rajiv Gandhi, his kids and Varun Gandhi (Sanjay Gandhi`s son). After all, Indira had at the most another 10 years of life left and wiping out her descendants would have broken her spirit. Instead, the task of finishing off Rajiv Gandhi was carried out by the only clear-thinking terrorist group in South Asia, namely, the LTTE. Once again, Madrasis rule!
By the way, Congress and Rajiv Gandhi still didn`t get anywhere in the elections in Tamil Nadu. So, don`t lump me with the illiterates you guys breed in Bimaru.
[Harimau, admit that despite all the Vedas, Purans, Geetas and 5000 year civilization bull crap, our people in the sub-continent are capable of equally heinous crimes, given an appropriate opportunity and weaker opponent, as we accuse Arabs of all the time on this board. Sikhs need no proof of that.]
Are you telling me the Sikhs are NOT a martial race, a Sikh is NOT worth ten Hindus?
[PS: Indira Gandhi was not the first one to use same faith commander in-charge for an operation that can be perceived as operation against that faith. Akbar raped Rajputs through Man Singh and Aurangzeb used minor Hindu rulers to go after Guru Gobind Singh. British did it all the time against us. Get it? Sell that snake oil somewhere else.]
I am not the one selling any snake oil. The fact is that 98% of the Sikhs know exactly what kind of thugs Bhindranwale and his followers were and were glad to be rid of him.
How come we don`t have any continuing terrorism in Punjab if all you Sikhs think that the Government of India screwed you royally?
#32 Posted by harimau on November 4, 2002 10:26:10 pm
Ref Waheeduzz #22
[As a child raised in East Pakistan, I was taught to put Jinnah on a pedestal. Like other children of my generation, I learnt to blindly adore him. Later I learnt about the actual constitutionalist Jinnah.]
Don`t tell Yasser Latif Hamdani!
[Jinnah harshly rebuked those opposing imposition of an alien language and culture in his Radio Address before his departure from East Pakistan on March 28, 1948. He characterized them as the ``opponents`` of Pakistan. He said that the supporters of Bengali as a state language are nothing but the ``paid agents`` of foreign countries. Aimed at castigating those who had the guts to demand Bengali to be one of the State languages of Pakistan, an imbecile Jinnah labeled the champions of Bengali language as ``communists,`` ``enemies of Pakistan,`` ``breakers of integrity of Pakistan,`` ``defeated and frustrated hate-mongers,`` ``champions of provincialism,`` `` breakers of peace and tranquility,`` ``political assassins and political opportunists,`` ``traitors,`` `` inhabitants of fools` paradise,`` and ``self-serving, fifth columnists`` , etc.]
Let us see. ``Enemies of India``, ``Breakers of integrity of India``, ``defeated and frustrated hate-mongers``, ``champions of provincialism``, ``breakers of peace and tranquility``, ``political assassins and political opportunists``, ``traitors``, ``inhabitants of fool`s paradise``, ``self-serving fifth-columnists``. Hey, that describes Jinnah and the Muslim League to a T.
[As a child raised in East Pakistan, I was taught to put Jinnah on a pedestal. Like other children of my generation, I learnt to blindly adore him. Later I learnt about the actual constitutionalist Jinnah.]
Don`t tell Yasser Latif Hamdani!
[Jinnah harshly rebuked those opposing imposition of an alien language and culture in his Radio Address before his departure from East Pakistan on March 28, 1948. He characterized them as the ``opponents`` of Pakistan. He said that the supporters of Bengali as a state language are nothing but the ``paid agents`` of foreign countries. Aimed at castigating those who had the guts to demand Bengali to be one of the State languages of Pakistan, an imbecile Jinnah labeled the champions of Bengali language as ``communists,`` ``enemies of Pakistan,`` ``breakers of integrity of Pakistan,`` ``defeated and frustrated hate-mongers,`` ``champions of provincialism,`` `` breakers of peace and tranquility,`` ``political assassins and political opportunists,`` ``traitors,`` `` inhabitants of fools` paradise,`` and ``self-serving, fifth columnists`` , etc.]
Let us see. ``Enemies of India``, ``Breakers of integrity of India``, ``defeated and frustrated hate-mongers``, ``champions of provincialism``, ``breakers of peace and tranquility``, ``political assassins and political opportunists``, ``traitors``, ``inhabitants of fool`s paradise``, ``self-serving fifth-columnists``. Hey, that describes Jinnah and the Muslim League to a T.
#31 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 4, 2002 5:33:37 pm
ali_l #30
>All this talk about Punjabi culture and sh$t. It is not going anywhere.
Exactly my point.
nawaid #29
>the only reason i figure out of Urdu`s quick spreading in west paksitan >that Urdu itself a combination of many languages and has very few >words of its own.......
Urdu is one of North Indian languages. In 1947 it didnt contain words of any of Pakistan`s own languages.
>uor example of Chineese in Canada has no relevence and its way out.
rather you are afraid of acknowledging that other nations don`t let alien languages be imposed on them.
>use in Pakistan movement
There you go. Ultimately you blurt out history as taught to you and taught to us when we were colonized by West Pakistani imperialists. Bengalis played a vanguard role in Pakistan movement. They didn`t need Urdu. Sindhis, Balochis, Gujaratis, Pushtoons didn`t need Urdu. Now you are taught that Urdu is essential for Islam and Pakistan. Even after losing more than half the country you have not learnt any lesson. No matter what languages you speak at home, you will ultimately destroy your languages for an alien ``Islamic` language.
That is what I was telling Punjaban who has developed a romatic vision of Pakistani Punjabis from interactions with some friends. There can not be any serious commitment to Punjabi in Pakistan.
Year 2003 is the Year of Urdu in Pakistan. Can there be a Year of Punjabi in Pakistan?
>All this talk about Punjabi culture and sh$t. It is not going anywhere.
Exactly my point.
nawaid #29
>the only reason i figure out of Urdu`s quick spreading in west paksitan >that Urdu itself a combination of many languages and has very few >words of its own.......
Urdu is one of North Indian languages. In 1947 it didnt contain words of any of Pakistan`s own languages.
>uor example of Chineese in Canada has no relevence and its way out.
rather you are afraid of acknowledging that other nations don`t let alien languages be imposed on them.
>use in Pakistan movement
There you go. Ultimately you blurt out history as taught to you and taught to us when we were colonized by West Pakistani imperialists. Bengalis played a vanguard role in Pakistan movement. They didn`t need Urdu. Sindhis, Balochis, Gujaratis, Pushtoons didn`t need Urdu. Now you are taught that Urdu is essential for Islam and Pakistan. Even after losing more than half the country you have not learnt any lesson. No matter what languages you speak at home, you will ultimately destroy your languages for an alien ``Islamic` language.
That is what I was telling Punjaban who has developed a romatic vision of Pakistani Punjabis from interactions with some friends. There can not be any serious commitment to Punjabi in Pakistan.
Year 2003 is the Year of Urdu in Pakistan. Can there be a Year of Punjabi in Pakistan?
#30 Posted by ali_l on November 4, 2002 3:51:56 pm
All this talk about Punjabi culture and sh$t. It is not going anywhere. You can find these lowlifes everywhere .. drinking lassi, belching and knocking down people to grab their money.
#29 Posted by nawaid on November 4, 2002 2:24:46 pm
28# means u prefer any other language over Urdu? .........but we still didnt figure out y dictator thoguht Urdu is the best as national language.......i didnt mean to argue u,,,,,i just want to understand y..Urdu had choosen by the dictator...... u might think punjabi is easy to learn but the only reason i figure out of Urdu`s quick spreading in west paksitan that Urdu itself a combination of many languages and has very few words of its own.......and Urdu`s component based on regional langauges......uor example of Chineese in Canada has no relevence and its way out. u cant deny that Urdu was not an important language of the region and didnt use in whole Pakistan movement alongwith english.
i beleive English as national language would be a good idea and we should look into now or after few years.................i guess thats the language dictator could speak.......
i beleive English as national language would be a good idea and we should look into now or after few years.................i guess thats the language dictator could speak.......
#28 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 4, 2002 1:37:20 pm
#27 Urdu was made the state language because it was easier to learn than Bengali, Punjabi, Gujarati, Sindhi, Balochi, Pushtoo? How was that established? For me learning Bengali is easiest, learning Pujabi next easiest. Any research conducted between 1930 and 1947 to establish Urdu the easiest to learn for everybody? Who was this `stupid sitting at the top slot` in 1947?
>and if we had 2 languages in majority Punjabi and Bengali .....what >language u think would be the national language in place of alien Urdu.?
Although some Chinese live in Canada, French and English speaking Canada does not make Chinese its state language. If ``at least their intention was fair`` then English or even Esperanto would have been made the national language to disadvantage everyone equally.
In bilingual countries local language are given equal status. In multilingual countries the majority language is made the state language and protection is given to regional languages. In dictatorships what the dictator says becomes the law.
>i dont understand what religion has to do with it and which seminar >Urdu has been promoted as religious language?
I understand that a number of conferences have taken place in Lahore on the issue of Punjabi language - Punjaban.
>and if we had 2 languages in majority Punjabi and Bengali .....what >language u think would be the national language in place of alien Urdu.?
Although some Chinese live in Canada, French and English speaking Canada does not make Chinese its state language. If ``at least their intention was fair`` then English or even Esperanto would have been made the national language to disadvantage everyone equally.
In bilingual countries local language are given equal status. In multilingual countries the majority language is made the state language and protection is given to regional languages. In dictatorships what the dictator says becomes the law.
>i dont understand what religion has to do with it and which seminar >Urdu has been promoted as religious language?
I understand that a number of conferences have taken place in Lahore on the issue of Punjabi language - Punjaban.
#27 Posted by nawaid on November 4, 2002 11:18:23 am
>>>> a language spoken by 4% of the population was imposed on Pakistanis in order to dupe them in the name of religion. Urdu was promoted in East and West Pakistan entirely on religious grounds. Punjabi and other West Pakistani languages will never rise because West Pakistanis ultimately swallowed this poison.<<<<<<<
Waheeduz,,,why west paksitani swallowed Urdu so easily....may b that was easy to swallow? ...........may b some stupids stinig at the top slot of policy making thought its better to go with the language which is easy to learn and excel in all parts of the country, rather then ask Punjabi guy to sallow difficult language like Bengali or Bengalis to sallow Punjabi......at least their intention was fair.
and if we had 2 languages in majority Punjabi and Bengali .....what language u think would be the national language in place of alien Urdu.?
>>>>>Seminars and political speeches in West Pakistan will not change the situation that now common Punjabi, Sindhi, Gujarati children learn Urdu and are told to identifty that as their main religious culture! <<<<<
i dont understand what religion has to do with it and which seminar Urdu has been promoted as religious language?
Waheeduz,,,why west paksitani swallowed Urdu so easily....may b that was easy to swallow? ...........may b some stupids stinig at the top slot of policy making thought its better to go with the language which is easy to learn and excel in all parts of the country, rather then ask Punjabi guy to sallow difficult language like Bengali or Bengalis to sallow Punjabi......at least their intention was fair.
and if we had 2 languages in majority Punjabi and Bengali .....what language u think would be the national language in place of alien Urdu.?
>>>>>Seminars and political speeches in West Pakistan will not change the situation that now common Punjabi, Sindhi, Gujarati children learn Urdu and are told to identifty that as their main religious culture! <<<<<
i dont understand what religion has to do with it and which seminar Urdu has been promoted as religious language?
#26 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 4, 2002 6:42:57 am
shibil
>our more parochial concerns and conceits over preserving regional >languages is little more than a distracting and divisive political acts.
Are you saying that preserving mother tongue and unique ancestral culture is distracting and divisive political act and learning Urdu is not?
Punjaban, a language spoken by 4% of the population was imposed on Pakistanis in order to dupe them in the name of religion. Urdu was promoted in East and West Pakistan entirely on religious grounds. Punjabi and other West Pakistani languages will never rise because West Pakistanis ultimately swallowed this poison. Now new Pakistani generations grow up too ashamed internally of their languages to seriously learn them. They learn the cultural superiority of Urdu over their own languages. In schools they are taught English and Urdu. Even in Bengal West Pakistanis tried the same trick but Bengalis didn`t give in. For Bengalis preserving our language and culture isn`t only a distraction. Division was caused by the advocates of Urdu. Seminars and political speeches in West Pakistan will not change the situation that now common Punjabi, Sindhi, Gujarati children learn Urdu and are told to identifty that as their main religious culture!
>our more parochial concerns and conceits over preserving regional >languages is little more than a distracting and divisive political acts.
Are you saying that preserving mother tongue and unique ancestral culture is distracting and divisive political act and learning Urdu is not?
Punjaban, a language spoken by 4% of the population was imposed on Pakistanis in order to dupe them in the name of religion. Urdu was promoted in East and West Pakistan entirely on religious grounds. Punjabi and other West Pakistani languages will never rise because West Pakistanis ultimately swallowed this poison. Now new Pakistani generations grow up too ashamed internally of their languages to seriously learn them. They learn the cultural superiority of Urdu over their own languages. In schools they are taught English and Urdu. Even in Bengal West Pakistanis tried the same trick but Bengalis didn`t give in. For Bengalis preserving our language and culture isn`t only a distraction. Division was caused by the advocates of Urdu. Seminars and political speeches in West Pakistan will not change the situation that now common Punjabi, Sindhi, Gujarati children learn Urdu and are told to identifty that as their main religious culture!
#25 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 3, 2002 11:42:32 pm
>Most of my Pak friends, inside and outside of Pak, speak Punjabi at >home and with friends, even though they say Urdu when asked what >their langauge is. I think the apparent win on behalf of the `urdu >crusader`s you speak of is somewhat superficial, and like a house of >
>cards.
Your friends dont even acknowledge Punjabi as their language. How many of them seriously teach the language and its literature to their children? Very few because an average Pakistani has been fully sold on an alien language. Electioneering in Punjabi and some conferences by a few elites in lahore wont return the language its status.
>It appears that Pakistani leadership has tried to assert the claim that >Punjabi is the langauge of the kafirs, I fail to see how they convince >people that urdu is somehow closer to the language of Islam.
Your failing to be convinced isnt the issue.
>Inshallah, perhaps the rumblings of an awakening have begun
These rumblings have been going on since the British left.
>cards.
Your friends dont even acknowledge Punjabi as their language. How many of them seriously teach the language and its literature to their children? Very few because an average Pakistani has been fully sold on an alien language. Electioneering in Punjabi and some conferences by a few elites in lahore wont return the language its status.
>It appears that Pakistani leadership has tried to assert the claim that >Punjabi is the langauge of the kafirs, I fail to see how they convince >people that urdu is somehow closer to the language of Islam.
Your failing to be convinced isnt the issue.
>Inshallah, perhaps the rumblings of an awakening have begun
These rumblings have been going on since the British left.
#24 Posted by Shibil on November 3, 2002 10:02:38 pm
the bengalis werent the only ones who resisted jinnah`s call for a ``linga franca``. there were riots and protests in sindh as well. over the years, violent and violently suppressed language riots have claimed the live of thousands of sindhis and even balochis. of course, the point that the so called constitutionalist jinnah refused the voice of the (bengali) majority on the issue of national language (which, i think, was demanding the recognition of bangla as a national language as well) is a good one.
it must also be borne in mind that the language riots had as much to do with underlying schemes of doing away with a federation in favour of ``one unit`` which would have, some assert, sealed punjabi dominance of pakistan through over-representation in the two institutions which run the country; the bureacracy and the military.
despite the `dominance` of urdu, the vast majority of peoples in pakistan still retain their actual mother tongues. the issue of language is of course given pertinence for 2 main reasons: 1) the preservation of the most important vessel of unique cultual identity and reprsentation; and 2) social exclusion or marginalisation of peoples who cant converse in the dominant language. sadly, all over the sub-continent, even bangladesh, it is the english language which is truly dominant institutionally, as the language of law and policy. the constitution of the peoples republic of bangladesh is also in english, like its pakistani and indian counterparts. the supreme charter of these countries in a langage alien to most of its residents! english is thus the ultimate tool of social exclusion in these societies and our more parochial concerns and conceits over preserving regional languages is little more than a distracting and divisive political acts.
it must also be borne in mind that the language riots had as much to do with underlying schemes of doing away with a federation in favour of ``one unit`` which would have, some assert, sealed punjabi dominance of pakistan through over-representation in the two institutions which run the country; the bureacracy and the military.
despite the `dominance` of urdu, the vast majority of peoples in pakistan still retain their actual mother tongues. the issue of language is of course given pertinence for 2 main reasons: 1) the preservation of the most important vessel of unique cultual identity and reprsentation; and 2) social exclusion or marginalisation of peoples who cant converse in the dominant language. sadly, all over the sub-continent, even bangladesh, it is the english language which is truly dominant institutionally, as the language of law and policy. the constitution of the peoples republic of bangladesh is also in english, like its pakistani and indian counterparts. the supreme charter of these countries in a langage alien to most of its residents! english is thus the ultimate tool of social exclusion in these societies and our more parochial concerns and conceits over preserving regional languages is little more than a distracting and divisive political acts.
#23 Posted by Punjaban on November 3, 2002 2:42:26 pm
Pardesi Sat sri akal!
Waheeduzz, Its seems that a number of West Punjabi`s are beginning to awaken to the loss of their mother tongue`s, sindhi`s balochi`s and I understand that a number of conferences have taken place in Lahore on the issue of Punjabi language.
Apparently, even during the recent elections, Punjabi slogans seemed all the rage, Quaid Muslim League used the of Ibrar ul Haq song ``AA jaa be jaa sycle te.`` Most advertisements against Nawaz Sharif were headed in Punjabi like ``Bale ve khoraakaaN teryaaN`` Major newspapers carried an advertisement of Nawaz Sharis, ``asaaN sher nooN votaaN pawaaN ge, asaaN sher te mohraaN lawaaaN ge, asaaN vichchRyaa yaar manaawaaN ge.`` A banner hung in the Liaqat Bagh during the Nawaz Leaque public meeting and the banner carried a verse: ``Bhukhe mar gaey, meN te tooN, luT ke khaa giyaa GHQ``. Seems that the reason the language was used by those seeking power was that this language spoke boldly to the masses. The PPP meeting in the Liaqat Baagh was also very distinct in this regard when public demanded that Ch. Aitzaaz Ahsan should speak in Punjabi.
Most of my Pak friends, inside and outside of Pak, speak Punjabi at home and with friends, even though they say Urdu when asked what their langauge is. I think the apparent win on behalf of the `urdu crusader`s you speak of is somewhat superficial, and like a house of cards.
It appears that Pakistani leadership has tried to assert the claim that Punjabi is the langauge of the kafirs, I fail to see how they convince people that urdu is somehow closer to the language of Islam.
Inshallah, perhaps the rumblings of an awakening have begun and Pakistani`s will reclaim their lost heritage, and be confident in their cultural identities as well as their religious one.
Waheeduzz, Its seems that a number of West Punjabi`s are beginning to awaken to the loss of their mother tongue`s, sindhi`s balochi`s and I understand that a number of conferences have taken place in Lahore on the issue of Punjabi language.
Apparently, even during the recent elections, Punjabi slogans seemed all the rage, Quaid Muslim League used the of Ibrar ul Haq song ``AA jaa be jaa sycle te.`` Most advertisements against Nawaz Sharif were headed in Punjabi like ``Bale ve khoraakaaN teryaaN`` Major newspapers carried an advertisement of Nawaz Sharis, ``asaaN sher nooN votaaN pawaaN ge, asaaN sher te mohraaN lawaaaN ge, asaaN vichchRyaa yaar manaawaaN ge.`` A banner hung in the Liaqat Bagh during the Nawaz Leaque public meeting and the banner carried a verse: ``Bhukhe mar gaey, meN te tooN, luT ke khaa giyaa GHQ``. Seems that the reason the language was used by those seeking power was that this language spoke boldly to the masses. The PPP meeting in the Liaqat Baagh was also very distinct in this regard when public demanded that Ch. Aitzaaz Ahsan should speak in Punjabi.
Most of my Pak friends, inside and outside of Pak, speak Punjabi at home and with friends, even though they say Urdu when asked what their langauge is. I think the apparent win on behalf of the `urdu crusader`s you speak of is somewhat superficial, and like a house of cards.
It appears that Pakistani leadership has tried to assert the claim that Punjabi is the langauge of the kafirs, I fail to see how they convince people that urdu is somehow closer to the language of Islam.
Inshallah, perhaps the rumblings of an awakening have begun and Pakistani`s will reclaim their lost heritage, and be confident in their cultural identities as well as their religious one.
#22 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 3, 2002 12:58:24 pm
As a child raised in East Pakistan, I was taught to put Jinnah on a pedestal. Like other children of my generation, I learnt to blindly adore him. Later I learnt about the actual constitutionalist Jinnah.
There were about 100 million Muslims in British-India. Close to one third 33 million were from Bengal. The leaders of Bengal Provincial Muslim League (BPML) were among the vanguards spearheadeding the Pakistan Movement. When Pakistan was carved out of India, 56% of its population was Bengali.
Yet constitutionalist Jinnah refused to recognize Bengali as a state language. He gave his infamous ``Urdu, and Urdu alone shall be the State Language of Pakistan`` speeches in Dacca (on March 21, 1948 at Race Course Maidan, and on March 24, 1948 at the Special Convocation Ceremony of Dacca University).
When unlike west-Pakistanis, Bengalis refused to renounce the due rights of their mother language, Jinnah harshly rebuked those opposing imposition of an alien language and culture in his Radio Address before his departure from East Pakistan on March 28, 1948. He characterized them as the ``opponents`` of Pakistan. He said that the supporters of Bengali as a state language are nothing but the ``paid agents`` of foreign countries. Aimed at castigating those who had the guts to demand Bengali to be one of the State languages of Pakistan, an imbecile Jinnah labeled the champions of Bengali language as ``communists,`` ``enemies of Pakistan,`` ``breakers of integrity of Pakistan,`` ``defeated and frustrated hate-mongers,`` ``champions of provincialism,`` `` breakers of peace and tranquility,`` ``political assassins and political opportunists,`` ``traitors,`` `` inhabitants of fools` paradise,`` and ``self-serving, fifth columnists`` etc. He praised the Chief Minister Khawaja Nazimuddin for using various forms of repressive and aggressive measures against the supporters of Bengali language.
Before and after his return to west Pakistan, Jinnah repeatedly reminded the supporters of Bangla language that Pakistan ``is determined to take appropriate stern actions`` against these evil forces.
Ultimately we got rid of those evil forces in 1971. Since then our situation has been improving. Pakistanis are ashamed of their own languages and are learning Urdu.
There were about 100 million Muslims in British-India. Close to one third 33 million were from Bengal. The leaders of Bengal Provincial Muslim League (BPML) were among the vanguards spearheadeding the Pakistan Movement. When Pakistan was carved out of India, 56% of its population was Bengali.
Yet constitutionalist Jinnah refused to recognize Bengali as a state language. He gave his infamous ``Urdu, and Urdu alone shall be the State Language of Pakistan`` speeches in Dacca (on March 21, 1948 at Race Course Maidan, and on March 24, 1948 at the Special Convocation Ceremony of Dacca University).
When unlike west-Pakistanis, Bengalis refused to renounce the due rights of their mother language, Jinnah harshly rebuked those opposing imposition of an alien language and culture in his Radio Address before his departure from East Pakistan on March 28, 1948. He characterized them as the ``opponents`` of Pakistan. He said that the supporters of Bengali as a state language are nothing but the ``paid agents`` of foreign countries. Aimed at castigating those who had the guts to demand Bengali to be one of the State languages of Pakistan, an imbecile Jinnah labeled the champions of Bengali language as ``communists,`` ``enemies of Pakistan,`` ``breakers of integrity of Pakistan,`` ``defeated and frustrated hate-mongers,`` ``champions of provincialism,`` `` breakers of peace and tranquility,`` ``political assassins and political opportunists,`` ``traitors,`` `` inhabitants of fools` paradise,`` and ``self-serving, fifth columnists`` etc. He praised the Chief Minister Khawaja Nazimuddin for using various forms of repressive and aggressive measures against the supporters of Bengali language.
Before and after his return to west Pakistan, Jinnah repeatedly reminded the supporters of Bangla language that Pakistan ``is determined to take appropriate stern actions`` against these evil forces.
Ultimately we got rid of those evil forces in 1971. Since then our situation has been improving. Pakistanis are ashamed of their own languages and are learning Urdu.
#21 Posted by Pardesi on November 2, 2002 2:04:49 pm
harimau #18, #19
Harimau, you are mixing up timeline to justify your argument with Punjaban (Welcome to the board 1Sikhniji).
It’s government’s responsibility to maintain law and order. If Bhindrawale was responsible for innocent Hindus being pulled out of buses and killing them, the federal government had right to send army in Punjab and suppress the movement. Still there was no need to go inside the temple. If you recently followed events in Israel, the Israelis did not go inside the Christian holy place when Palestinians were holed up inside. I guess, Jews cared about Christian world’s feelings. Sikhs are only 1.5% in number, so Indira could afford to screw them at will.
On the other hand, when innocent Sikhs were burned alive by thousands in New Delhi and many other cities what did the army and federal government did to stop the carnage? Rajiv was in New Delhi and so was the whole democratic apparatus. Did any inquiry take place immediately afterwards to make sure that these incidents do not take place? Looks like there was no need to. His mother’s life was equal to thousands of “unemployed and unemployable (your words)” residents of New Delhi.
Oh, but Indira and Rajiv were only part of that immoral and corrupt Nehru-Gandhi dynasty and a rotten party known as Congress-I, but rest of us Indians are highly ethical and moral. Right? How come then Rajiv got most parliament seats just after a month or so after the Sikh massacres? How come there are chowks and airports named after Rajiv and Indira while there is no state level memorial in New Delhi for 1984 innocent victims that could serve as a reminder to future governments in New Delhi that for God sake have some shame and maintain law and order at least in your capital?
Harimau, admit that despite all the Vedas, Purans, Geetas and 5000 year civilization bull crap, our people in the sub-continent are capable of equally heinous crimes, given an appropriate opportunity and weaker opponent, as we accuse Arabs of all the time on this board. Sikhs need no proof of that.
PS: Indira Gandhi was not the first one to use same faith commander in-charge for an operation that can be perceived as operation against that faith. Akbar raped Rajputs through Man Singh and Aurangzeb used minor Hindu rulers to go after Guru Gobind Singh. British did it all the time against us. Get it? Sell that snake oil somewhere else.
Harimau, you are mixing up timeline to justify your argument with Punjaban (Welcome to the board 1Sikhniji).
It’s government’s responsibility to maintain law and order. If Bhindrawale was responsible for innocent Hindus being pulled out of buses and killing them, the federal government had right to send army in Punjab and suppress the movement. Still there was no need to go inside the temple. If you recently followed events in Israel, the Israelis did not go inside the Christian holy place when Palestinians were holed up inside. I guess, Jews cared about Christian world’s feelings. Sikhs are only 1.5% in number, so Indira could afford to screw them at will.
On the other hand, when innocent Sikhs were burned alive by thousands in New Delhi and many other cities what did the army and federal government did to stop the carnage? Rajiv was in New Delhi and so was the whole democratic apparatus. Did any inquiry take place immediately afterwards to make sure that these incidents do not take place? Looks like there was no need to. His mother’s life was equal to thousands of “unemployed and unemployable (your words)” residents of New Delhi.
Oh, but Indira and Rajiv were only part of that immoral and corrupt Nehru-Gandhi dynasty and a rotten party known as Congress-I, but rest of us Indians are highly ethical and moral. Right? How come then Rajiv got most parliament seats just after a month or so after the Sikh massacres? How come there are chowks and airports named after Rajiv and Indira while there is no state level memorial in New Delhi for 1984 innocent victims that could serve as a reminder to future governments in New Delhi that for God sake have some shame and maintain law and order at least in your capital?
Harimau, admit that despite all the Vedas, Purans, Geetas and 5000 year civilization bull crap, our people in the sub-continent are capable of equally heinous crimes, given an appropriate opportunity and weaker opponent, as we accuse Arabs of all the time on this board. Sikhs need no proof of that.
PS: Indira Gandhi was not the first one to use same faith commander in-charge for an operation that can be perceived as operation against that faith. Akbar raped Rajputs through Man Singh and Aurangzeb used minor Hindu rulers to go after Guru Gobind Singh. British did it all the time against us. Get it? Sell that snake oil somewhere else.
#20 Posted by Punjaban on November 2, 2002 7:08:28 am
Harimau: The first conclusion you jumped to was way off the mark. You continue to jump to more.....I`ve read a few of your posts now, I have some questions to throw your way that you may or may not care to answer, later though...
#19 Posted by harimau on November 2, 2002 12:24:59 am
Ref punjaban #17 by punjaban on November 1, 2002 5:51pm PT
[a victim is a victim is a victim, whether he be a Sikh in Punjab, an Ahmadi in Pakistan, a Bangladeshi, a Muslim in Gujrat or a Hindu living under Moghal oppression a few centuries ago. My heart cries for them all, and I would like to think that if Sikhs ever perpetrated that kind of oppression on any people, I would speak out just as loudly. ]
It is obvious you are clueless about Indian and even Punjabi history.
Ranjit Singh kicked serious Afghan butt. After he conquered Peshawar, any Afghan found in Peshawar was put to death. That was just about 150 years ago.
On the other hand, you seem to have swallowed wholesale the propaganda put out by London-based Khalistan supporters. Indira Gandhi found Bhindranwale a useful tool to throw out the Akali Dal government in Punjab. Pakistan found in Bhindranwale, who now was getting too big for his britches, a useful tool to cause trouble for India, what with the demand for Khalistan which had no support among common Sikhs. Bhindranwale huddled inside Sikhism`s holiest shrine, the Golden Temple, and India had no choice but to send in the army (under a general officer who happened to be a Sikh but an Indian first and a Sikh second). Bhindranwale gets killed and Indira Gandhi herself pays the price later. Innocent Sikhs are slaughtered in Delhi like innocent Sikhs and Hindus were slaughtered by Bhindranwale himself earlier in Punjab. Graham Greene could not have written a darker novel of intrigue. It was a morality play acted out in public over a dozen years. And the moral is: there is no morality in governing a country. The corollary is: the poor public will always pay the price.
[a victim is a victim is a victim, whether he be a Sikh in Punjab, an Ahmadi in Pakistan, a Bangladeshi, a Muslim in Gujrat or a Hindu living under Moghal oppression a few centuries ago. My heart cries for them all, and I would like to think that if Sikhs ever perpetrated that kind of oppression on any people, I would speak out just as loudly. ]
It is obvious you are clueless about Indian and even Punjabi history.
Ranjit Singh kicked serious Afghan butt. After he conquered Peshawar, any Afghan found in Peshawar was put to death. That was just about 150 years ago.
On the other hand, you seem to have swallowed wholesale the propaganda put out by London-based Khalistan supporters. Indira Gandhi found Bhindranwale a useful tool to throw out the Akali Dal government in Punjab. Pakistan found in Bhindranwale, who now was getting too big for his britches, a useful tool to cause trouble for India, what with the demand for Khalistan which had no support among common Sikhs. Bhindranwale huddled inside Sikhism`s holiest shrine, the Golden Temple, and India had no choice but to send in the army (under a general officer who happened to be a Sikh but an Indian first and a Sikh second). Bhindranwale gets killed and Indira Gandhi herself pays the price later. Innocent Sikhs are slaughtered in Delhi like innocent Sikhs and Hindus were slaughtered by Bhindranwale himself earlier in Punjab. Graham Greene could not have written a darker novel of intrigue. It was a morality play acted out in public over a dozen years. And the moral is: there is no morality in governing a country. The corollary is: the poor public will always pay the price.
#18 Posted by harimau on November 2, 2002 12:24:59 am
Ref punjaban #14
[a disgrace to the women of Pakistan? Interesting! Since I have never set foot in Pakistan. Then crocodile tears for Sikhs, I am Sikh my friend,]
With the ignorance that you displayed and the Pak propaganda sites you showcased, I chose to call you a Pakistani. So, now you are a disgrace to Sikh women! Are you happy?
[...and lost a few friends to violence after `84, none of whom were involved in any fight for freedom, although those who wish for that have every right to their opinion, just as Pakistani`s had when they fought for Pakistan.]
Read my earlier reply. As to your friends` deaths, I am sorry to hear that but that is what happens when a bunch of unemployed and unemployable people get involved in ``freedom struggles``: the innocents get killed first.
As for any Pakistani fighting for Pakistan, that is a comforting myth for Pakistanis but the fact is that no Pakistani wanted Pakistan or fought for it. That is why people like Yasser Latif Hamdani ask, ``What is so special about going to jail for your beliefs?`` Jinnah appealed to the illiterates with the slogan, ``Pakistan ki matlab kya, La ilahi il Allah``. Because of that your folks had to leave their possessions behind and had to escape to India with barely their lives. And Pakistan is stuck today with the mullahs.
[a disgrace to the women of Pakistan? Interesting! Since I have never set foot in Pakistan. Then crocodile tears for Sikhs, I am Sikh my friend,]
With the ignorance that you displayed and the Pak propaganda sites you showcased, I chose to call you a Pakistani. So, now you are a disgrace to Sikh women! Are you happy?
[...and lost a few friends to violence after `84, none of whom were involved in any fight for freedom, although those who wish for that have every right to their opinion, just as Pakistani`s had when they fought for Pakistan.]
Read my earlier reply. As to your friends` deaths, I am sorry to hear that but that is what happens when a bunch of unemployed and unemployable people get involved in ``freedom struggles``: the innocents get killed first.
As for any Pakistani fighting for Pakistan, that is a comforting myth for Pakistanis but the fact is that no Pakistani wanted Pakistan or fought for it. That is why people like Yasser Latif Hamdani ask, ``What is so special about going to jail for your beliefs?`` Jinnah appealed to the illiterates with the slogan, ``Pakistan ki matlab kya, La ilahi il Allah``. Because of that your folks had to leave their possessions behind and had to escape to India with barely their lives. And Pakistan is stuck today with the mullahs.
#17 Posted by Punjaban on November 1, 2002 5:51:33 pm
Shibil,
those were wise words , a victim is a victim is a victim, whether he be a Sikh in Punjab, an Ahmadi in Pakistan, a Bangladeshi, a Muslim in Gujrat or a Hindu living under Moghal oppression a few centuries ago. My heart cries for them all, and I would like to think that if Sikhs ever perpetrated that kind of oppression on any people, I would speak out just as loudly. We all need to learn to put humanity before nationality, and religious fervour, and speak out equally against all human rights atrocities, regardless of whether they occur at home, next door, or abroad.
those were wise words , a victim is a victim is a victim, whether he be a Sikh in Punjab, an Ahmadi in Pakistan, a Bangladeshi, a Muslim in Gujrat or a Hindu living under Moghal oppression a few centuries ago. My heart cries for them all, and I would like to think that if Sikhs ever perpetrated that kind of oppression on any people, I would speak out just as loudly. We all need to learn to put humanity before nationality, and religious fervour, and speak out equally against all human rights atrocities, regardless of whether they occur at home, next door, or abroad.
#16 Posted by Shibil on November 1, 2002 4:34:50 pm
my bad about how jefferson felt about his slaves. i stand corrected.
the debate here seems to have been sidetracked and the original thread forgotten. its quite telling though that we (referring to the pakistanis here, and not our indian bretheren) instantly tend to foget our own historical and political blights and problems and jump on the gun shooting criticisms at india and indians (some valid, others not so) instead. indians, by the looks of it, enjoy doing the same.
i dont particularly see a cause of argument here. the short of it is that both india and paksitan have horrendous human rights records and have been responsible for massacres of its own citizens. the indian state has slaughtered muslims in kashmir, and the much publicized riots of bombay, gujarat and a number of others. the reasons have been political, as gujarat is the last big state which still has a bjp government. india has persecuted, incarcerated, tortured and killed thousands of sikhs in punjab, as well as others in nagaland and even tamil nadu.
pakistan has similarly persecuted and killed thousands of ahmedis in and since the 1950`s, tens of thousands of baluch in the rebelions of the 1950`s and 1970`s, around 200,000 bangladeshi`s in the 1970`s, thousands of muhajirs in the 1980`s under zia and thousands since, and of course, our military advenures in kashmir, as well as our military backed militants, have also cost thousands of kashmiri lives.
we should shed tears for all of them (it is quite true that when we mention bangladesh, we mention our military failiures and indian intervention rather than our humanitarian failiures and crimes. pakistanis have been largely silent about bangladesh since 1971. our previous ambassador to bagladesh was sent back because he spoke in favour of the genocide. it has only been musharraf who apologised very recently for bangladesh, because of certain political pressures). interesting that our perceptions are so molded by the official lines which both india and pakistan toe, that is, whenever there are domestic problmes there is heavy fighting in kashmir. similar arguments or conflicts here about adopting holier than thou positions doesnt take away that both states have cost the peoples of the many nations living within this geographical area dearly.
like all the lives lost in the subcontinent because off and since partition, partition itself is also a historical fact. personally, i feel that india has long since accepted partition and pakistan as a state (whatever other problems india might have, i will not be vane enough to address them here). pakistan now has to move on and stop defining its identity and politics, especially its foreign policy, in oppositional terms to india. if we, as pakistanis fail to achieve this level of mental and intellectual independence from india then that is what might be the final nail in the coffin of the 2 nation theory.
the debate here seems to have been sidetracked and the original thread forgotten. its quite telling though that we (referring to the pakistanis here, and not our indian bretheren) instantly tend to foget our own historical and political blights and problems and jump on the gun shooting criticisms at india and indians (some valid, others not so) instead. indians, by the looks of it, enjoy doing the same.
i dont particularly see a cause of argument here. the short of it is that both india and paksitan have horrendous human rights records and have been responsible for massacres of its own citizens. the indian state has slaughtered muslims in kashmir, and the much publicized riots of bombay, gujarat and a number of others. the reasons have been political, as gujarat is the last big state which still has a bjp government. india has persecuted, incarcerated, tortured and killed thousands of sikhs in punjab, as well as others in nagaland and even tamil nadu.
pakistan has similarly persecuted and killed thousands of ahmedis in and since the 1950`s, tens of thousands of baluch in the rebelions of the 1950`s and 1970`s, around 200,000 bangladeshi`s in the 1970`s, thousands of muhajirs in the 1980`s under zia and thousands since, and of course, our military advenures in kashmir, as well as our military backed militants, have also cost thousands of kashmiri lives.
we should shed tears for all of them (it is quite true that when we mention bangladesh, we mention our military failiures and indian intervention rather than our humanitarian failiures and crimes. pakistanis have been largely silent about bangladesh since 1971. our previous ambassador to bagladesh was sent back because he spoke in favour of the genocide. it has only been musharraf who apologised very recently for bangladesh, because of certain political pressures). interesting that our perceptions are so molded by the official lines which both india and pakistan toe, that is, whenever there are domestic problmes there is heavy fighting in kashmir. similar arguments or conflicts here about adopting holier than thou positions doesnt take away that both states have cost the peoples of the many nations living within this geographical area dearly.
like all the lives lost in the subcontinent because off and since partition, partition itself is also a historical fact. personally, i feel that india has long since accepted partition and pakistan as a state (whatever other problems india might have, i will not be vane enough to address them here). pakistan now has to move on and stop defining its identity and politics, especially its foreign policy, in oppositional terms to india. if we, as pakistanis fail to achieve this level of mental and intellectual independence from india then that is what might be the final nail in the coffin of the 2 nation theory.
#15 Posted by sac on November 1, 2002 10:32:11 am
re shibil #10:
Thomas Jefferson did not keep his slaves locked up in a cellar. According to several of his biographies, he was a model slave-owner(sounds like an oxymoron I know). Jefferson spent quite a bit of time in France around the time of the French revolution and upon his return to Virginia there are accounts of him being carried on his shoulders to his home by overjoyous slaves.
Your point about him being still relevant in political and constitutional debates is a good one. Just wanted to keep the record straight.
later
-sac
Thomas Jefferson did not keep his slaves locked up in a cellar. According to several of his biographies, he was a model slave-owner(sounds like an oxymoron I know). Jefferson spent quite a bit of time in France around the time of the French revolution and upon his return to Virginia there are accounts of him being carried on his shoulders to his home by overjoyous slaves.
Your point about him being still relevant in political and constitutional debates is a good one. Just wanted to keep the record straight.
later
-sac
#14 Posted by Punjaban on November 1, 2002 7:05:02 am
Harimau,
a disgrace to the women of Pakistan? Interesting! Since I have never set foot in Pakistan. Then crocodile tears for Sikhs, I am Sikh my friend, and lost a few friends to violence after `84, none of whom were involved in any fight for freedom, although those who wish for that have every right to their opinion, just as Pakistani`s had when they fought for Pakistan.
a disgrace to the women of Pakistan? Interesting! Since I have never set foot in Pakistan. Then crocodile tears for Sikhs, I am Sikh my friend, and lost a few friends to violence after `84, none of whom were involved in any fight for freedom, although those who wish for that have every right to their opinion, just as Pakistani`s had when they fought for Pakistan.
#13 Posted by nawaid on November 1, 2002 7:05:01 am
reference to harimau:
when ll b the time when Indian will accept pakistan as a state, Dear,Akhand Bharat dream should be over by now , as u r very sensible person plz concentrate much on the acts of BJP and ppl like Lal Baig Advani , Ball Thakuray etc as they r damaging India`s image of world largest democratic country,rather then wasting immense amount of time on criticising , paksitan`s demoractic system, pakistan army, General Musharf and Mr Jinnah etc. These things are way out of uor leauge.
We Pakistani ppl are fully aware that what a mess Paksitan is as a country now, but still 98% of paksitani ppl believe that Two nation theory is still applicable and how much dictator Mr Jinnah was he took the right decision that time
when ll b the time when Indian will accept pakistan as a state, Dear,Akhand Bharat dream should be over by now , as u r very sensible person plz concentrate much on the acts of BJP and ppl like Lal Baig Advani , Ball Thakuray etc as they r damaging India`s image of world largest democratic country,rather then wasting immense amount of time on criticising , paksitan`s demoractic system, pakistan army, General Musharf and Mr Jinnah etc. These things are way out of uor leauge.
We Pakistani ppl are fully aware that what a mess Paksitan is as a country now, but still 98% of paksitani ppl believe that Two nation theory is still applicable and how much dictator Mr Jinnah was he took the right decision that time
#12 Posted by harimau on October 31, 2002 11:59:21 pm
Ref punjaban #9
[faisluno...I agree, except just wanted to correct that actually in 1984, well over 40,000 sikhs (many organizations quote upto 250,000 killed in a decade) were killed in the Dehli riots, in Punjab during operation bluestar and in dissapearances, fake encounters until the early nineties.]
More than 600,000 people died in the US Civil War and that too out of a population that was not quite 60 million.
Khalistan and demands for an independent Kashmir or Nagaland will be suppressed no matter what the cost.
So, shut up and stop shedding crocodile tears for Sikhs. Shed some tears for Bangladeshis first.
[http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/All+by+Date/
1A1A4DC6B5C5555B87256C2500007F90?OpenDocument
http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/rights/104/260595.html]
I am surprised you didn`t give the URL for the Kashmir Freedom Council.
You are a disgrace to the women of Pakistan. Thank God for such sensible people as anNy, Semipreciousme and a host of other Pak women who are well-read and who have not swallowed the propaganda of the Pak Army or Yasser Latif Hamdani.
[faisluno...I agree, except just wanted to correct that actually in 1984, well over 40,000 sikhs (many organizations quote upto 250,000 killed in a decade) were killed in the Dehli riots, in Punjab during operation bluestar and in dissapearances, fake encounters until the early nineties.]
More than 600,000 people died in the US Civil War and that too out of a population that was not quite 60 million.
Khalistan and demands for an independent Kashmir or Nagaland will be suppressed no matter what the cost.
So, shut up and stop shedding crocodile tears for Sikhs. Shed some tears for Bangladeshis first.
[http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/All+by+Date/
1A1A4DC6B5C5555B87256C2500007F90?OpenDocument
http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/rights/104/260595.html]
I am surprised you didn`t give the URL for the Kashmir Freedom Council.
You are a disgrace to the women of Pakistan. Thank God for such sensible people as anNy, Semipreciousme and a host of other Pak women who are well-read and who have not swallowed the propaganda of the Pak Army or Yasser Latif Hamdani.
#10 Posted by Punjaban on October 31, 2002 8:21:50 pm
faisluno...I agree, except just wanted to correct that actually in 1984, well over 40,000 sikhs (many organizations quote upto 250,000 killed in a decade) were killed in the Dehli riots, in Punjab during operation bluestar and in dissapearances, fake encounters until the early nineties.
Even though Amnesty were not allowed into Punjab to investigate properly, many reports were still pieced together. RAM NARAYAN KUMAR, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: has proven thousands of illegal cremations were carried out by corrupt police officers in a planned and systematic, uniform operation as late as 1994. To date no one has been brought to justice for these crimes against humanity.
http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/All+by+Date/1A1A4DC6B5C5555B87256C2500007F90?OpenDocument
http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/rights/104/260595.html
Even though Amnesty were not allowed into Punjab to investigate properly, many reports were still pieced together. RAM NARAYAN KUMAR, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: has proven thousands of illegal cremations were carried out by corrupt police officers in a planned and systematic, uniform operation as late as 1994. To date no one has been brought to justice for these crimes against humanity.
http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/All+by+Date/1A1A4DC6B5C5555B87256C2500007F90?OpenDocument
http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/rights/104/260595.html
#9 Posted by Shibil on October 31, 2002 8:21:50 pm
i found that the article provided interesting and not generally acknowledged facts about pakistans legal and constitutional (as opposed to straight political) history. it made an important point about one of pakistans most `sacred cows`. jinnah might have been, as nawaid said, ``some sort of dictator``. he appointing himself as governor general (essentially the post of vice-roy, re-packaged for de-colonisation consumption) instead of mountbatten continuing the position till an independent constitution was framed (as was expected). thus, he gave himself all the powers that should have legally or rightly belonged to the parliament (or constituent assembly) and the prime minister.
the issue with the NWFP government was that it was a congress government which did not oppose joining pakistan outright but asserted its rights to maintain its democratically elected government in the province. further, jinnah used arbitrary emergency powers to dismiss khuros government (the then cheif minister of sindh). the dismissal was over khuros long standing dispute with hidayatullah (the then governor of sindh) as the former was a big advocate of land reform and peasant rights while the latter was a major spokesmen for the waderas. in this way it was ensured that, in fact, conventional and not constitutional politics would dominate sindhi and national political life.
i dont quite understand the issue which nawaid takes up with the article but godot definitely makes a very intelligent one. we must look to the future. however, this has to be done with a thorough historical analysis. the political situation in paksitan has historical roots which must be analysed. even today, jeffersons writings and recorded speeches form important parts of debates over US constitutional interpretations and his ambivalent attitude towards slaves (he was against them in principle but not in practice, a conflict he tried to resolve by keeping his slaves mostly locked up out of sight in the cellar) still crop up in contemporary academic debates about race relations and identity politics. only when historical problems are understood and brought into the popular conciosness will popular solutions be devised to them. the resistance to the presentation of facts about jinnah and his role in pakistans sad constitutional history, as well as the general ignorance of these facts is testimony to the fact that the article might be too late but is still a welcome start.
for these reasons, i appreciated the article as it presented its factual analysis in a largely objective manner. if jinnah appears to be a de facto dictator with a view to the facts then it says more about us than about the author. if the shoe fits...but that is a seperate debate altogether and was not what, i believe, the article primarily adressed.
finally, being a stranger to these discussions, the `debate` between tipu and faisaluno is ridiculous (at least to someone not aware of the background) and displays a general tendency to argue gross generalisations rather than actual factual positions.
the issue with the NWFP government was that it was a congress government which did not oppose joining pakistan outright but asserted its rights to maintain its democratically elected government in the province. further, jinnah used arbitrary emergency powers to dismiss khuros government (the then cheif minister of sindh). the dismissal was over khuros long standing dispute with hidayatullah (the then governor of sindh) as the former was a big advocate of land reform and peasant rights while the latter was a major spokesmen for the waderas. in this way it was ensured that, in fact, conventional and not constitutional politics would dominate sindhi and national political life.
i dont quite understand the issue which nawaid takes up with the article but godot definitely makes a very intelligent one. we must look to the future. however, this has to be done with a thorough historical analysis. the political situation in paksitan has historical roots which must be analysed. even today, jeffersons writings and recorded speeches form important parts of debates over US constitutional interpretations and his ambivalent attitude towards slaves (he was against them in principle but not in practice, a conflict he tried to resolve by keeping his slaves mostly locked up out of sight in the cellar) still crop up in contemporary academic debates about race relations and identity politics. only when historical problems are understood and brought into the popular conciosness will popular solutions be devised to them. the resistance to the presentation of facts about jinnah and his role in pakistans sad constitutional history, as well as the general ignorance of these facts is testimony to the fact that the article might be too late but is still a welcome start.
for these reasons, i appreciated the article as it presented its factual analysis in a largely objective manner. if jinnah appears to be a de facto dictator with a view to the facts then it says more about us than about the author. if the shoe fits...but that is a seperate debate altogether and was not what, i believe, the article primarily adressed.
finally, being a stranger to these discussions, the `debate` between tipu and faisaluno is ridiculous (at least to someone not aware of the background) and displays a general tendency to argue gross generalisations rather than actual factual positions.
#8 Posted by Godot on October 31, 2002 10:42:27 am
So, the error in title was fixed after I pointed it out! Okay...!!!...Oh, well...!!!
#7 Posted by faisaluno on October 31, 2002 10:42:27 am
Re harimau:
the two nation theory is as much of a myth as the glory of indian secularism. as 70,000 dead kashmiris, 3,000 dead sikhs and 2,000 dead gujratis graphically testify. if i was i woman, i would prefer to be beaten by a stick rather than being burnt alive with my dead husband.
the two nation theory is as much of a myth as the glory of indian secularism. as 70,000 dead kashmiris, 3,000 dead sikhs and 2,000 dead gujratis graphically testify. if i was i woman, i would prefer to be beaten by a stick rather than being burnt alive with my dead husband.
#6 Posted by Tipu on October 31, 2002 10:08:13 am
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#5 Posted by harimau on October 31, 2002 6:52:06 am
Ref 12-Head #4
[I am used to reading such crap about Jinnah s life in Indian paper & i can understand there moribund sickeming obsession with corpses of Jinnah for he put there tail on fire & sent Indian pirouetting real good right or wrong as soon as they gave him the Excuse for one!!!!]
No. The Indians, AS USUAL, are right: on Jinnah, on Pakistan, on the Two Nation Theory, and yes, even on the Partition. After all, it was Sardar Patel who said it is better to amputate the diseased limb than live with it. We all can see from the current elections in Pakistan what state of necrosis the diseased limb has reached.
[There is no use of your opinion insignificant as it is & some more than 60 yrs too late of use .]
Again you are wrong. You are about 1400 years too late, not just 60.
[Maybe i might not have votedfor Jinnah then but no body asked me either.]
You probably would have voted for Maulana Maudoodi in the very first election in Pakistan. You probably are looking up to the Islamic Republic of Iran as THE model state.
The real question that you avoid answering is: have you stopped beating your wife with the stick whose specifications are spelled out in Al-Kitab?
[I am used to reading such crap about Jinnah s life in Indian paper & i can understand there moribund sickeming obsession with corpses of Jinnah for he put there tail on fire & sent Indian pirouetting real good right or wrong as soon as they gave him the Excuse for one!!!!]
No. The Indians, AS USUAL, are right: on Jinnah, on Pakistan, on the Two Nation Theory, and yes, even on the Partition. After all, it was Sardar Patel who said it is better to amputate the diseased limb than live with it. We all can see from the current elections in Pakistan what state of necrosis the diseased limb has reached.
[There is no use of your opinion insignificant as it is & some more than 60 yrs too late of use .]
Again you are wrong. You are about 1400 years too late, not just 60.
[Maybe i might not have votedfor Jinnah then but no body asked me either.]
You probably would have voted for Maulana Maudoodi in the very first election in Pakistan. You probably are looking up to the Islamic Republic of Iran as THE model state.
The real question that you avoid answering is: have you stopped beating your wife with the stick whose specifications are spelled out in Al-Kitab?
#4 Posted by Shah on October 30, 2002 5:21:03 pm
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#3 Posted by nawaid on October 30, 2002 1:29:08 pm
totally agree with ``urstruly`` on this.........i dont understand what kind of attemp writer is making to prove Mr Jinnah as some sort of dictator....how can one see resemblance in dismissal of Dr Khan`s NWFP Govt for non alliance with Pakistan although through refrendum it was decided that NWFP will join pakistan in very first week of creation of Pakistan with the dismisal of Khwaja Nazimudin`s Govt by disgrace like Ghulam Muhammad.............may be legally it can be prove as same thing but its a very foolish attemp to criticise Mr Jinnah on these basis.
#2 Posted by Godot on October 30, 2002 12:40:05 pm
I think Pakistanis should stop debating endlessly their past. It is very rare to see at Chowk or in Pakistani newspapers an article that says, okay, where do we go from here? How do we ensure that elected leaders push legislation through that would make Pakistan a better country for ordinary people? How do we reform the judiciary and the education system? How do we make the government of Pakistan accountable and transparent? How do we make the military mind its own business of defending the borders and not always trying to save the country from its unruly leaders? How do we make the military accountable to the elected PM and not vice versa? How do we slow the population growth? How in the world the country is going to feed all those mouths and provide jobs?
It’s futile to focus just on past and not the future. One does not see the Americans, or in fact any other country, endlessly debating their past, that Thomas Jefferson, in spite of his brilliance, owned slaves and had black mistresses whom he abused, that when America was created those who were not White did not even matter and were not part of the nation building. What matters to America today is the present and the future direction of the country, the sins of its fathers and a lot of its wrongs lie in the history books and are not the obsession of the policy making of today. It`s true that you learn from the past, but the focus is the future. A smart country knows that if you do not prepare for the future today, there will be no future.
And it’s pretty bad that the author of this article did not even bother to check the spelling errors before submitting this essay to Chowk, even the title has an error!
It’s futile to focus just on past and not the future. One does not see the Americans, or in fact any other country, endlessly debating their past, that Thomas Jefferson, in spite of his brilliance, owned slaves and had black mistresses whom he abused, that when America was created those who were not White did not even matter and were not part of the nation building. What matters to America today is the present and the future direction of the country, the sins of its fathers and a lot of its wrongs lie in the history books and are not the obsession of the policy making of today. It`s true that you learn from the past, but the focus is the future. A smart country knows that if you do not prepare for the future today, there will be no future.
And it’s pretty bad that the author of this article did not even bother to check the spelling errors before submitting this essay to Chowk, even the title has an error!
#1 Posted by Urstruly on October 30, 2002 11:21:38 am
AkhiaN waalio akhaiN bari na`amat haiN.
Laholwila quwwat
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