Jihad – The Misperceptions

Godot,

re:``...your response you don`t trip over the wire again and force me to set up another one for you...``

Really? Would you care to explain the logic of this convoluted sentence?
Or does my asking ``force you to set up another one``....how are you interested in being read? Readers, regardless of their political identities, don`t like to be insulted. It would do you good to remember that.

Rizvan,

``...found is they have written something and Amazingly enough each one had witten the same thing. I mean four hungry persons and no difference in what the wrote, and that is for 23 years``.

You are assuming this `history` is true. For most Muslims questioning this history is not possible.

Reply to #134 By einstenwallah

You wrote.

`` Muslim will never accept a rational explanation of his ``communication with the Allah`` as possibly arising out of a psychiatric phenomenon brought on by (say) extreme starvation. Or something else we will never know.``

Please rationalize that communication with the Allah can arise out of extreme starvation. Then it can persist for 23 years and shape itself in the form of a book.

Lets assume it is not a holy book or anything like this. Just treat this as an ordinary book. What is your opinion about the quality of the book written by someone experiencing a psychiatric phenomenon?

Let assume that Muhammad was a person of meager means, probably did not have anything to eat for days, empty stomach he turned himself to write a book. Oh wait, he did not know how to write, but he has his companions who we have to assume were equivalently empty stomach but could write, so some of them memorized it whatever Muhammad said or write it. Let see know, a few days were gone and somehow they got little food, if they were not permanent retards they must have some of the senses back. Well they looked at what they have done when they were hungary, well what they found is they have written something and Amazingly enough each one had witten the same thing. I mean four hungry persons and no difference in what the wrote, and that is for 23 years.

My intent is not to win an argument, waiting for your responce. Just want to see how would you rationalize? Maybe I learn something new from you.

Thanks.

Samina (143),

I do not need to ``explain`` my self to anyone, let alone you. One either understands me or not. If you don`t understand my angle, no reams of paper can explain it to you. And I reiterate that not everyone is going to understand me. You appear to be one of those who can`t read me the way I want to be read. Not every book written out there is meant to be read by just about everyone. One can read a book, of course, but whether one understands it the way it was meant to be understood is another story.

If you find offensive my saying that your kind will not understand my kind and you consider it a battameezi, well, that`s your choice. To me, it`s just your insecurity.

Yes, Samina, setting up little trip wires and then playing games in my responses is my specialty. You are not the only one who is frustrated and offended by it. Join the club.

Now, I will be more than happy to let you have the last word, that is if in your response you don`t trip over the wire again and force me to set up another one for you.


Shankar (142),

I`m not saying it doesn`t happen. All I said that I haven`t experienced it. And I`ll stick to my argument that most ordinary Pakistanis disapprove blasphemy law and most Pakistani men do not consider women beneath them. And just as you pointed out, if I hear that some Hindus drink urine, I am not immediately going to assume that all Hindus do that or even approve of such practice, or that such practice makes the entire Hindu philosophy disgusting.

shankar #142

You seem to live in a very protected world. Have you met any Orthodox Jews or Mormons? Fundamentalist Christians? Wahhabi Muslims? Have you had a discussion with them concerning their life-styles and beliefs?

Believe me, compared to their beliefs having a daily shower in cow-piss is the epitome of reason. It is another matter that political parties are taking advantage cow-reverence traditions to separate one set of indians from another.

re: shrinker

...umm, idiot, when was the last time you spent time in bombay?...last i checked people were still doing what they`ve been doing for the past x years...just because ashcroft would prefer americans stop having fun, has america become any less fun?...if the majority doesn`t want it, it ain`t gonna happen...it`s the same story all over the world...if people want to be fundos, no progressive govt is going to stop them...if people don`t want to be fundos, no bin laden can make them fundos...

...hence saudi arabia will continue to be a hellhole until its women stop saying that despite not having equal rights they are better off than american women...cuba will continue to be a party town no matter which dictator is in business...

hamidm,

Jeeze, you have a real ``cool`` family..eventhough your grandma probably would be accused of ``loose character`` by some nutcases, nowadays. Too bad you were born on the wrong side of the border. Your family would have fit perfectly in the Bombay I grew up in.

Unfortunately, that was Bombay before Bal Thackrey became an idol to the frikking brainless unemployable ghatis. At least in the 70s, the Shiv Sena`s BEST contribution to Bombay was ``Shiv Sena batata-wadas``--to die for--- rolled up in a White Castle type bun & red hot chutney.

Now I hear they are trying to wage a ``hindu jehad`` against Valentine`s Day. The days when a couple in love can go to certain secluded spots at Mahalaxmi & Haji Ali & make out with reckless abandon to the sounds of the Arabian Sea crashing on the coastline...are numbered.


godot,

I my 23 yrs of growing up in India I`ve NEVER EVER seen a hindu drinking cow-urine or s*it....hindus in the US havent done it in front of my eyes, either.

But some illustrious hindu Chowkies have told me that there are hindus who do that routinely! One even told me that he saw a hindu running to a cow who was about to take a leak & helped himself to warm shower!

So just because you havent come across some pratices doesnt mean it doesnt happen . We Chowkies belong in a minority diaspora who have not really been in touch with the ``real`` India or Pakistan.

That DOES it!! I wanna be a Parsi!! Who cares who eats my flesh after I die?

Godot,

Dont try to have the last word in this- you have made sweeping statements, set up little trip wire sentences and then play little games in response...if you wont explain what you mean, you dont get to write sentences like ``people like you...`` -its bad form. You apparently have had this headache long before I showed up....now tameez seh baath karo.

Samina (140),

``People like you don`t have the capacity to understand people like me.``

I rest my case. And thank you for saving me a headache.

Goodluck to you too and regards.

Godot,

I beg your pardon?

I suppose that only the folks who are brave enough to ask themselves uncomfortable questions and understand the myriad of oppressions against Other non Muslim people and all orientations must constantly explain themselves, justify the morality of humanism, explain why just because your family has liberal mores doesnt mean the struggle against misogyny is irrelevant, its only you who doesnt have to submit your conditional morality to any rigorous inquiry.

Thanks for saving me time as well; good luck with your work, may you spend a happy future with your buddy Psycho head.

regards

hamidm2 (136),

Okay, perhaps you are closer to the ``core`` Pakistanis than me. I come from a very Muslim yet very liberal family. Using religion to justify atrocities and degrade women is something I haven`t experienced personally. I count among my friends a Pakistani who is so orthodox that he wouldn`t accept interest on his money from his bank. Yet, he is among the most moderate and rational persons I know when it comes to decency and rights. But, still, going back to Pakistan, unless a comprehensive poll is taken in Pakistan on the issues you and I disagree with, I wouldn`t believe it. So, until then, I suppose you and I just will have to agree to disagree on this.

Yes, I agree. I like Maureen Dowd very much. Finally, you and I have something in common! [ Hope you don`t find this too upsetting!!!]


Ras (137),

Khuda Hafiz rocks!!!

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From the article:

Consequently, hardly surprising, burgeoning Muslim male population with no outlet for dissent and debate is turning to radically militant Islam, but plausibly not a fault of others.

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Badly constructed sentence.

-ew

godot

no, no,no ...... i haven`t shifted focus at all ..... i maintain that if you took a poll in pakistan the vast majority will vote for blasphemy laws ...... as for women, an even bigger majority wil tell you that asma jehangir is a woman of ``loose character`` and an american agent and that women should stick to their knitting as prescribed by islam .......... this includes the common man spitting ganderis in raja bazaar and the sphisticate sipping nimbo pani on the verandah of islamabad club ...........and if i may say so, i know what i am talking about because i still spend a lot of time in raja bazaar and islamabad club .............exposure to this virulent form of islam has blinded us all equally.......... american muslims are perhaps even more diseased - if you don`t believe me take a trip to your nearest mosque and talk to the god-crazed brothers and their abaya wearing sisters ............

P.S. maureen dowd rocks - in today`s column she has us pinned: ``a society engaged in a momentous struggle for its future, torn between secret police and secret undergarments. ``

hamidm,
TOUCHE......

There used to be a time when religion was not a tool used to back fascism and that was even during our lifetimes.

FUNdamentalists have decided to quit having FUN.

And you are right on another count.

Most of my old friends are afflicted
too.

Khuda Hafiz...

Sorry

Allah Hafiz....

Dear saminashah: I think it is the ``teacher` in you that tries to explain and clarify when something is deemed not right. You do not have to respond and please everybody about preconceived notion and self laothing. Those are the words thrown at you without seriously understanding the meanings of them in relative terms.
All of us conceive our notions based on our understanding and experience of yesterday or past few years. A rational preconceived notion is better than faith based preconceived notions of 1400 years ago because only you would be hurt if your preconceived notion is wrong but look at the risks (actual realities in real time) of faith-based preconceived notions of 1400 years ago.
Self loathing is only important if you laothe the most important identity or anything that you held very dearly. A person X with Islam as most important identity can not justfiably label `self laothing` to another person Y whose order of identities is quite different. If you love your top ten identities and laothe eleventh to the extent of ignoring or abandoning, labeling self laothing would not be correct. A beautiful mind and talented individual should not lose sleep over a comment regarding one of the nails on the left foot. Theek hae naaN?

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From article:

... Nowhere in the entire Muslim world, rule of the law runs supreme and/or judiciary independent enough and free of executive interference to deliver justice in a true sense. Consequently, hardly surprising, burgeoning Muslim male population with no outlet for dissent and debate is turning to radically militant Islam, but plausibly not a fault of others.

++

Okay so rule of law is subverted and citizenry are oppressed and they do not have enough freedom to debate and disent. So why would they adopt radically militant Islam against outsiders? Would not a more natural consequence be a revolt and a civil war? Instead they adopt radically militant Islam and wage jihadic wars against their neighbours.

Okay fine the author has argued that followers of Islam have butchered more Muslims than number of Muslims killed by outsiders. But a few paragraph before author gives two exceptions to this. Palestinian and Kashmiri jihads. Assuming number of Muslims killed by outsiders would be proportionate to number of outsiders killed by Muslims it would seem that first victims of jihad are Muslims. My question is: is this why the author has written this article? This article would not have been written for a million years had not had a significant adversery of Islam had not been provoked. As long as outside adversery of Islam were inflicted minor damages thinkers of Islam would not have felt a need to explain jihad. So let us accept that jihad and only jihad which even author wished to talk about was jihad against outsiders. And let us accept that absence of enough freedom to debate and disent at home cannot be used to explain jihad against outsiders.

My submission is that since genetics cannot be used to explain all these violence amongst Muslims, only other source that can explain is: ideas. The main source of ideas Muslims draw on is the Quran. Since especially misanthropic parts of Quran are beyond question there is no future for Islam on planet Earth.

If an ancient text is found which does not have misanthropic elements then Muslims have some hope of salvaging their religion. Even if slightly different ancient text is found one may throw doubt on accepted version. But Muslims are not interested in making such discovery. Others cannot be expected to take interest in finding such texts. First you have to go to virulently anti-nonmuslim countries to make any discovery of this sort. Even if slightly different ancient text is found task of questioning accepted version is not easy.

Muhammad`s wars may be legitimate response to aggressors he faced. I do not reject historical Muhammad and historical Jesus. But all the rest is nonsense. A Muslim will never accept a rational explanation of his ``communication with the Allah`` as possibly arising out of a psychiatric phenomenon brought on by (say) extreme starvation. Or something else we will never know. And Islam will always remain at loggerheads with rest of world. Any positive contribution Islam was capable of making has already been transmitted to west. No one will shed a tear if Islam disappears from face of Earth.

-einsteinwallah