Jihad – The Misperceptions

hamidm2 (117),

I see you have shifted the focus yet again. Well, in the 50+ years that Pakistan has existed, which Government or Assembly has represented and carried out the wishes of ordinary Pakistanis?


Samina (128),

I don`t have time to waste with clueless people. People like you don`t have the capacity to understand people like me.

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#90 by hamidm2 on November 8, 2002 4:44pm PT

...... jerry falwell and pat robertson are prime examples of the crazy christians who have it equaly bad ............

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hamidm2, read following quote: ``I read enough of the history of his life written by both Muslims and -- non-Muslims, that Muhammad was a -- a violent man, a man of war.``

You know who has said that. For a moment forget who said these words. Just evaluate these words on its own merit and on its own meaning. Are not these words true? Do not say yes ... but. Just a frank evaluation of the meaning of these words.

You also know the full quote prefaced above statement by declaring Muhammad as terrorist. Sure Falwell is crazy. He has crazy views about gays amd lesbians etc etc. But the example of Muhammad`s wars is constant inspiration or source of legitimation of jihad.

Two things needs to be done to make Islam hospitable on planet earth which has more (islamic) non-believers than (islamic) believers:

(1) Muhammad was probably justified in fighting his wars
(2) Concept of jihad is totally unnecessary for Islam

But (2) instantly leads to a crisis in Islam because even the so called ijtehad is not allowed to quetion core beliefs written up in Quran. With ijtehad you can discover Theory of Relativity but you can not question Muhammad`s words. (Since I am not an islamic person I am not 100 percent sure whether the concept of jihad is a unijtehadable concept or not)

This is why in another post I have written: Islam`s time is up. Either it mends itself or it will end itself. It seems mending Islam is not an option.

-einsteinwallah

hey dost (post 111)

finally an example of a hindu with some spine:

New Delhi ‘encounter’

Witness being intimidated
Daily Times, Nov 10, 2002


NEW DELHI: A witness, who contends a shootout at a New Delhi shopping mall was staged, said on Saturday police had tried to intimidate him to change his statement.

“Some police officers came to me on November 5 and asked about what I had seen. I told them to calm down and said there was no cross-firing during the encounter,” Hari Krishna, a doctor, told reporters here. “They said I was wrong and tried to intimidate me and then threatened me. I know they are quite capable of putting me into prison and getting me murdered,” he said.

Human rights activists and newspapers have also questioned the police account of the shootout at the busy upscale Ansal Plaza shopping mall on November 3 - the eve of the Hindu festival Diwali.

Hari Krishna has said the two men appeared drugged and were unarmed when they stepped out of a car, unable to walk properly. “Either they had not slept for several days or had taken a heavy dose of sleeping pills,” Krishna earlier told The Asian Age newspaper. “The police fired about 30 to 35 bullets. It lasted hardly a minute.” He denied that the men had been carrying a bag crammed with weapons, which police, later, produced as evidence, claiming that the two had planned to mow down shoppers. —AFP


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-11-2002_pg8_1

Hamidm2,

Youre damned right about American Muslims and the growing freakiness among some of us. About 2-3 years ago, my ma d-r-a-g-g-e-d me to a Pak-American charity event where the money went to support some godforsaken political party...``Christy`` (so populist, dont you think?) ``Miss Environment not`` Whitman gave some speech after a 9 year old boy translated a sura in the Q`uran warning us all about premarital sex...now, I`m going to say that its either going to be all downhill for this 9 year old from then on, or he`s going to be laughing about this 10 years from now over some Booda (Buddha for weed) and when he goes home, his ma is going to tell him that Buddhism has some not so fun religious laws as well. As for us, you know the answer; its all gone downhill for us since that stultifying boring night, horribly horribly downhill...

Hamidm2,

Youre damned right about American Muslims and the growing freakiness among some of us. About 2-3 years ago, my ma d-r-a-g-g-e-d me to a Pak-American charity event where the money went to support some godforsaken political party...``Christy`` (so populist, dont you think?) ``Miss Environment not`` Whitman gave some speech after a 9 year old boy translated a sura in the Q`uran warning us all about premarital sex...now, I`m going to say that its either going to be all downhill for this 9 year old from then on, or he`s going to be laughing about this 10 years from now over some Booda (Buddha for weed) and when he goes home, his ma is going to tell him that Buddhism has some not so fun religious laws as well. As for us, you know the answer; its all gone downhill for us since that stultifying boring night, horribly horribly downhill...

Once again, Godot,
I am asking you to back up the claim that self introspection that is not delusionary is self loathing. Stand by your guns, man or stop the dithering...surely you can translate your own thoughts and not just the works of the masters....

Hamidm2, SameerJB,
Not a single day in my life passes when I don`t mourn how out of hand things have gotten...where the mere idea of tolerance for all beliefs is assaulted on a daily basis by Muslims who should have enough self respect to allow other peoples to have their beliefs....how much affection can you have for the khandan at Biriyani dawats when most folk are tenuously attached to those narratives that will make them forever innocent, forever unaccountable....enough already.

sameerjb

...... i don`t know, but something has gone terribly wrong in the last twenty five years ..... when i was growing up we were all muslims but islam was not the big deal that it seems to be today .............. i didn`t know anyone who prayed five times a day or sat around debating the pros and cons of jihad .................the masjid between D and E hall at UET couldn`t muster more than three rows of namazis on a good friday...... the jamatis at new campus used to have the best flash game in town at one rupee boot ............a friend of ours od`d on mandies and vat-1, took off all his clothes and declared his nabuwat - everyone laughed and for years and we sang `` wo dekho aa rahey hain muhammad jinhon ne pahnee hai patloon kalee`` whenever we saw him approaching .........and even i was content with being a ``muslim`` and islam never really bothered me ........... we went to bari imam to drink bhang with the malangs, and to data sahib to get stoned and get a free meal ....... the only time religion was a problem was when they shut down heera mandi for ten days in muharram and we couldn`t go visit the gorgeous tops-wali girl ( remember her? she was in the movie ``road to swat`` with kamal ....``) ................

...... my grandfather`s generation didn`t seem to know much about religion other than the fact that my grandma would run to kohat and sacrifice a black bakra once in a while ........on my father`s side, my grandma smoked a chillum, wore a dhoti that showed her leg all the way to her skinny thigh and couldn`t tell which way was kaaba if her life depended on it ..........my mother made halwa and zarda and kheer four or five times a year for eid-i-milad-un-nabi and chahar shamba and shab-i-barat ............i didn`t know anyone who wore the burqa or the chaddar ......... my mother donned the top part when we entered sarki darwaza in peshawar or turned onto gurdat singh road in quetta - but it was a meaningless pathan thing that had nothing to do with islam ............ my father ranted like a mad man twice a year to find his jinnah cap for eid prayers and looked so silly and awkward while praying that we all laughed ( i guess i must have inherited it from him - my kids laugh every time they see me pray) ........... islam used to be gurday kapooray at eid, fireworks at shab-i-baarat and a few trips a year to pir sahinb at kohat, with a picnic on the way ............ it was all good fun .........

............ what happened ? .....at first i thought it was an american-muslim sickness that made people behave like arabs, dress in abayas, call total strangers brothers and sisters, have little boys scream the azan and pray ba-jamaat, go to tafseer and disect koranic verses, separate men from women, and talk about jihad and the ingredients in halal toothpaste ................then i found people in pakistan, who had once been reasonable folks, were also afflicted by this terrible disease ........... what happened and where are we headed? .......... may allah have mercy on us and protect us from the demons that are let loose in the month of ramadhan (formerly known as ramzan)..............

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{I don`t know any Pakistani, and I know quite a few, who approves the blasphemy law in Pakistan - Godot}

This is the face of Pakistan presented to the world. Yet Christians in Pakistan live in abject fear of being jailed and murdered by Pakistani government for the crime of uttering one wrong word within the earshot of any mullah.

Pakistanis belive that jihad is peace and growth, we are told. Yet Pakistani parents take their children to large jihadi gatherings where speakers openly call for the blood of non Muslims in the name of Islam:

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2002-weekly/nos-10-11-2002/dia.htm#1

{Another constant theme with the speakers was jehad. There was hardly any speaker who did not stress the need for jehad in present times. Hafiz Abdus Salam Bhutvi termed jehad a religious obligation for all Muslims and that it would continue till the Day of Judgement.

Contrary to popular belief that Islam spread in the subcontinent with the efforts of the saints, the Jamatud Dawah claims that Islam spread with the use of the sword. Hafiz Abdur Rehman Makki echoed this belief when he said that the supremacy of Islam in the world is possible only with the help of the sword.

There was a large number of young participants at the convention, many of whom had come with their parents. The interpretation of Islam and the concept of jehad advocated by Jamatud Dawah are thought to be widely popular in the Pakistani society. This is one reason for the increasing number of parents sending their children to such organisations, as there are almost 20,000 students studying in Jamatud Dawah`s 131 schools all over the country. Like in the past, one of the banners at the ijtima advocated the establishment of a ministry of war and the abolition of the ministry of defence.}

Ferozk, Rsridhar:
Check out this book, `What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response by Bernard Lewis`

Ref. Godot`s post #121

Preconceived notion appears to be your forte, dear Godot. I recall this recent interaction when you barked at the authors of a Chowk article. I think this proves the point in crystal clear terms.

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#7 by Lucy on October 22, 2002 4:12pm PT
Ref.: Godot`s post


``With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!``

It is always wise to think before speaking so you don`t make a fool of yourself like you just did. You don`t have to believe these authors. Just go read the World Bank`s latest reports. The link is provided below for your convenience. In case you have trouble reading, the data is in the 8th column from the left. You can scroll up and down to your heart`s content and check the data for every country to convince yourself that India is indeed the 4th largest. How does it feel to be a clown? ;)

http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2002/tables/table1-1.pdf

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Ciao,

Lucy

godot #121

I was not wrong about godot. He is not the original hydra, but hydra in a more refined skin. The only distinction is that the hydra doesn`t put on a mask here, godot does.

dost-mittar #111
``Ronald Reagan, called these mujahids the greatest freedom fighters, feted them in his white house and compared them to the pioneers of the ``land of the free````

True. Reagan termed it a fight for democracy. ZiaUlHaq was toasted as the great friend of democracy and the Afghan war lords the equivalents of the US founding fathers.

Needless to say, the expedience of a white man or a Haji doesnot make something either Allah`s jihad or fight for democracy. I had an Afghan woman friend who was an engineer. Those who paid to make it unsafe and later punishable for someone like her to earn a living honestly were either great Hajis espousing the greatness of jihad or great democrats like Reagan espousing the greatness of defending democratic values or spineless authors like this one calling jihadis `dedicated and valorous`. Excuse me if I am not impressed.

Is it that she and others like her were not Muslim enough or democrats enough or dedicated and valorous enough to become warlords or jihadis or Afghan founding sisters on behalf of Afghan working women? My point is its best to accept the reality that terms like jihad are used to mask less than noble objectives and even dirtier means.

hamidm2 #107
Calling something a war instead of jihad doesnot change the implications of people killing and dying in large numbers.

godot

``I don`t know any Pakistani, and I know quite a few, who approves the blasphemy law in Pakistan, considers women beneath men, or looks down on Hindus as a mere idolaters``

..... then why can`t musharraf, the most important pakistani of us all, repeal the blasphemy law ?......... think about it - he can repeal everything else..... heck, he can rename the days of the week if he wants to, but he can`t go against the dictates of ``true`` islam ............ and why couldn`t the last asembly declare honor killings a crime? ............ the answer is simple : the vast majority of pakistanis - not the palo alto crowd that you seem to know - believe in this version of islam ............. i am talking about the unwashed masses and the council of islamic ideology ............ people like najam sethi and asma jehangir do not represent the ummah - the cii does .........

.........it is a sad fact that the vast majority of pakistanis still believe that the jews were behind 911 and the ahmedis are heretics - this includes generals, retired bureaucrats, college professors, stanford bound students and travel agents .......... the java sipping crowd that believes otherwise is a tiny minority that can be hanged in the stadium on a single friday afternoon, inshallah................

re: faisaluno #113

...you`re a sick ba$tard...using others` suffering to score political points instead of accepting that jihadi terrorism needs to stop...

rsridhar #99: You are falling for the same trap as many others that Islam needs reinterpretation, suitable to 21st century. In the presence of better alternative, above does not make sense. One reinterpretation, agreeable to all, will not work as one shoe does not fit all. Additionally speaking in terms of misinterpretations and reinterpretation suggest inherent truth hidden within. My arguement is that religions are necessities and not absolute truths. Religions are like common spicies in cooking such as garlic, ginger, salt, onion, peppers etcetra. It is individuals choice how much of each ingredient to add in a dish or not add at all. A reinterpretation of two cloves of garlic per kilo meat instead of misinterpretation of three cloves previously makes no difference. Moreover, the condition of either two cloves of garlic per kilo meat or get ready to burn eternally in hell will stay no matter how clearly and completely the amount of garlic is reinterpreted.
Basically Islam needs to be looked separately from spiritual and doctrinal/ collective/ practical/ political point of view. At individual spiritual level, like individual taste for different combinations of spicies, it has been always reinterpreted for individual need and taste throughout history except for the last 200 years when one interpretation was imposed, since Mohammad Bin Abdul Wahab of Wahabi movement. It is for the last 200 years that one interpretation is enforced as duty/ farz instead of taste/ needs. Until 200 years ago, Sufis in particular interpreted Islam in thousand different ways depending on taste (culture)/ need (social). Innovated techniques were added with varying degrees of importance and interpretation of shariat (duty - independent of needs and taste). Within India, Sufis developed many beautiful innovative individual spirituality without forcing it as duty. Some Sufis went so far they are more respected outside Islam than within now. Has any Muslim heard of Bhikan Shah of Banaras? Non Muslims know and respect him more than Muslims for his role in Bhakti movement.
Therefore, thousand/ million interpretations are better and necessary depending on individual Muslim need and taste than one standard, old or modern at spiritual level. There is absolutely no need to worry about this part.
When it comes to standardized ethos and the rest in practical life, it has no role to play in 21st century. The Ummah shummah and other political/ collective concepts need abandoning and not re-interpreting. Now not only it means to enforce a two clove garlic per kilo meat policy but cooking for community together in big pots (`langars` only) as crude concept of faithful Ummah. Jihad at individual level is more like a dedication to any cause but political/ collective Jihad has no role except to provide canon fodders for the benefit of few at the top/ rulers/ kings/ invaders.
The reduction of Islam in practical life of individuals and elimination of Islam from influencing politics, foreign policies and society is the solution, not reinterpretation. Muslims need seculars, liberals and not Muslim Democrats or Modern Islamists.