Jihad – The Misperceptions

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Samina,

You are a very nice person. I hate to lose you as a friend. You are right. This was a totally useless argument which took us to death valley. No hard feelings from me. Hope all is well with you.

Godot,

Chance after chance? We`ve had an argument over absolutely nothing....and you still dont know who I am!....

re: Pak`s superiority over India
Indians (at least some of them) are complaining that they can never compete with Pakis. In what? You could have never guessed it. In Sycophancy and A$$licking uncle sam:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1021113/asp/opinion/story_1377789.asp

Sridhar

Ref Dikshit #142

[The days when a couple in love can go to certain secluded spots at Mahalaxmi & Haji Ali & make out with reckless abandon to the sounds of the Arabian Sea crashing on the coastline...are numbered.]

You keep waxing lyrical about Bombay. Bombay has NO beach worth the name. What is worse, the coast near Mahalaxmi Temple and Haji Ali is rocky. There is no sand there and on top of it, it is slimy. One would need to take not a blanket but a bedstead in order to do anything there that requires lying down. Unless of course you are a yogi who sleeps on a bed of nails.

For one who claims to have grown up in Malabar Hill, you display the most amazing ignorance about the neighborhood.

Ref pmishra2 #146

[shankar #142

You seem to live in a very protected world.]

Nope. Just in a cloud of ignorance.

Ref Rizwan #147

[Amazingly enough each one had witten the same thing. I mean four hungry persons and no difference in what the wrote, and that is for 23 years.]

Amazingly, there is nothing like a closed mind to ward off opposing viewpoints.

The fact is that copies of various versions of the Koran have been found which differ from each other. Since you can`t burn copies of the Koran, they have been sealed in urns and ceremoniously buried and have been discovered a la the Dead Sea Scrolls. Nobody can talk about it because the minute somebody says that there have been multiple versions of the Immutable Word of God as Dictated to The-Prophet-to-End-All-Prophets by God`s Own Angel, he will come under a fatwa pronouncing the death sentence.

So, keep believing that the Koran has been handed down with no changes. It is a comforting thought in a world that changes rapidly and you can find solace there that you still can beat your wife and kick the dog because God told you you can do so.

Samina,
Hey, don`t complain now. I gave you chance after chance, but you kept asking me to explain my self...yeah, so typical...just like Judge Judy...

Godot,
Well I see you Have Gotten the Last Word....typical....

Sameer, you need to add your signature in the poem. Here I take your permission to change the last 2 lines.;

Sameer kahe tutt paine kafiro,
waDD ke dakray keetae jaoge.:-)

snow #151: What Auranzeb could not achieve in 50 years of his rule. we accmplished his unfulfilled dream in 25 years. It did not happen overnight. We had our military brains working overtime to put together a strategy to defend ideological borders (read: a permanent and dominating stay in the internal and external affairs of Pakistan). The Islami Jamiaat-e-Talaba cadre were moving on to military and bureaucracy from colleges to universities and military had their cronies running the show on their behalf like Pagara, MQM, Jihadis, Sharif brothers and now Jamali. Finally Aladin came out of the lamp and grew so big with feeding from military, Saudi Arabia and coldwar politics that even his toe won`t fit back in the lamp. Now it is:
MaareN gae aur mar jaayeN gae
marney ke baad jaza paayeN gae
ab khoon ke naddyaN bahayeN gae
phir hooroN se aankh laRayeN gae
Jum`aa ke Jum`aa nahaney waley
har din baar baar nahayeN gae
din raat janimaz pe sajdey waley
ba-sujood ber-hooran bitayeN gae
angoor kee mithass tarsney waley
sharab sae ghus`l furmayeN gae
Aur Sameer:
begum se jhiRkeN khaney walo
allah se jhiRkeN khao gae
apna khana aap pakaney walo
kisi kee khana ban jao gae
apna chuhla aap jalaney walo
Uss ke chuhley mieN pae jao gae
sharab ka lut`f uthaney walo
angoor galey meiN phuNsao gae
be-haya, be-sharm, tut paiNeo
wadd ke dakrey keetae jao gae

Muslamano, aaj kee tafseer khatm!!!

Samina (150),

I wish you stopped keep asking me to ``explain`` my self. Yes, there are ``convoluted`` logics out there that are not for everybody to understand. I know, for some, if it`s not black-and-white, they can`t get it. It`s very foolish for them to try to understand something they are not meant to, just as it`s even more foolish for one to try to explain it to them.

No, I am not interested in being read in any particular way. I am sorry if said that in my last post, forgetting that you`d very quickly pick on that. One can read me any way one wants to. I don`t really care about it; except that I am not going to ``explain`` my self. I know what I mean when I write, and the smart ones--and there are quite a few of them at Chowk--know what I mean.

A wise man once said, ``Like kind attracts each other.`` As this interaction between us clearly shows, we know how attracted we are to each other!

I agree that no one, me included, likes to be insulted. So, just say goodbye and good-riddance and leave it at that.

HamidM, SameerJB, Samina et al

I couldn`t agree more. Just the other day I spoke to my mom and she said that they had a couple of friends over to have a tafseer, as in someone read the Quran and there was a Q&A session afterwards. The first thing that came to mind was this is like Bible study in universities. The second thing was Why ? you never did it before, why start now ? Turns out everyone`s doing it... its the latest fad after coffee mornings and committees.

Go figure.. Koran study a fad ! I have a nagging feeling it might get out of hand...

re: shankar

{Heheh...next time try rolling around with a broad next to the tidepool off the Mahalaxmi temple.}


...that`s probably because it is on temple premises...even the pope would be pissed if he saw tongue-dancing sessions going on by his church...i`ve got friends in bombay and they say there is no dearth of places to go do this...

Saxena,

Heheh...next time try rolling around with a broad next to the tidepool off the Mahalaxmi temple. The ambience is peaceful, serene, beautiful & romantic. Also many nooks & crannies for you to dissappear from the world.

Now I`ve heard there are hawaldars patrolling the nooks & crannies. The SOB ``Sakarams & Shindes`` wait for a poor bakhra couple to be in a very..er.. compromising situation & then pounce on the scene saying ``saala bchod tumkho sharam nahi aata hai?!``..Well, for 20 bucks they`ll look the other way, though:)..they`ve got families to feed too...

ThankGod I`m not a young guy in Bombay, these days...Price of housing in Bombay is absolutely INSANE. Even many married couple have to share a bedroom with several other family members. The sad part is, most of the couples behind the Mahalaxmi temple & Haji Ali mosque are MARRIED (er..to each other). The just want to carry out their God given ..er duties, in privacy..Now even thats gone!..OK OK, theres a 20Rs TAX imposed...Maybe thats one good way to curb population growth..

Godot,

re:``...your response you don`t trip over the wire again and force me to set up another one for you...``

Really? Would you care to explain the logic of this convoluted sentence?
Or does my asking ``force you to set up another one``....how are you interested in being read? Readers, regardless of their political identities, don`t like to be insulted. It would do you good to remember that.

Rizvan,

``...found is they have written something and Amazingly enough each one had witten the same thing. I mean four hungry persons and no difference in what the wrote, and that is for 23 years``.

You are assuming this `history` is true. For most Muslims questioning this history is not possible.

Reply to #134 By einstenwallah

You wrote.

`` Muslim will never accept a rational explanation of his ``communication with the Allah`` as possibly arising out of a psychiatric phenomenon brought on by (say) extreme starvation. Or something else we will never know.``

Please rationalize that communication with the Allah can arise out of extreme starvation. Then it can persist for 23 years and shape itself in the form of a book.

Lets assume it is not a holy book or anything like this. Just treat this as an ordinary book. What is your opinion about the quality of the book written by someone experiencing a psychiatric phenomenon?

Let assume that Muhammad was a person of meager means, probably did not have anything to eat for days, empty stomach he turned himself to write a book. Oh wait, he did not know how to write, but he has his companions who we have to assume were equivalently empty stomach but could write, so some of them memorized it whatever Muhammad said or write it. Let see know, a few days were gone and somehow they got little food, if they were not permanent retards they must have some of the senses back. Well they looked at what they have done when they were hungary, well what they found is they have written something and Amazingly enough each one had witten the same thing. I mean four hungry persons and no difference in what the wrote, and that is for 23 years.

My intent is not to win an argument, waiting for your responce. Just want to see how would you rationalize? Maybe I learn something new from you.

Thanks.

Samina (143),

I do not need to ``explain`` my self to anyone, let alone you. One either understands me or not. If you don`t understand my angle, no reams of paper can explain it to you. And I reiterate that not everyone is going to understand me. You appear to be one of those who can`t read me the way I want to be read. Not every book written out there is meant to be read by just about everyone. One can read a book, of course, but whether one understands it the way it was meant to be understood is another story.

If you find offensive my saying that your kind will not understand my kind and you consider it a battameezi, well, that`s your choice. To me, it`s just your insecurity.

Yes, Samina, setting up little trip wires and then playing games in my responses is my specialty. You are not the only one who is frustrated and offended by it. Join the club.

Now, I will be more than happy to let you have the last word, that is if in your response you don`t trip over the wire again and force me to set up another one for you.


Shankar (142),

I`m not saying it doesn`t happen. All I said that I haven`t experienced it. And I`ll stick to my argument that most ordinary Pakistanis disapprove blasphemy law and most Pakistani men do not consider women beneath them. And just as you pointed out, if I hear that some Hindus drink urine, I am not immediately going to assume that all Hindus do that or even approve of such practice, or that such practice makes the entire Hindu philosophy disgusting.

shankar #142

You seem to live in a very protected world. Have you met any Orthodox Jews or Mormons? Fundamentalist Christians? Wahhabi Muslims? Have you had a discussion with them concerning their life-styles and beliefs?

Believe me, compared to their beliefs having a daily shower in cow-piss is the epitome of reason. It is another matter that political parties are taking advantage cow-reverence traditions to separate one set of indians from another.

re: shrinker

...umm, idiot, when was the last time you spent time in bombay?...last i checked people were still doing what they`ve been doing for the past x years...just because ashcroft would prefer americans stop having fun, has america become any less fun?...if the majority doesn`t want it, it ain`t gonna happen...it`s the same story all over the world...if people want to be fundos, no progressive govt is going to stop them...if people don`t want to be fundos, no bin laden can make them fundos...

...hence saudi arabia will continue to be a hellhole until its women stop saying that despite not having equal rights they are better off than american women...cuba will continue to be a party town no matter which dictator is in business...

hamidm,

Jeeze, you have a real ``cool`` family..eventhough your grandma probably would be accused of ``loose character`` by some nutcases, nowadays. Too bad you were born on the wrong side of the border. Your family would have fit perfectly in the Bombay I grew up in.

Unfortunately, that was Bombay before Bal Thackrey became an idol to the frikking brainless unemployable ghatis. At least in the 70s, the Shiv Sena`s BEST contribution to Bombay was ``Shiv Sena batata-wadas``--to die for--- rolled up in a White Castle type bun & red hot chutney.

Now I hear they are trying to wage a ``hindu jehad`` against Valentine`s Day. The days when a couple in love can go to certain secluded spots at Mahalaxmi & Haji Ali & make out with reckless abandon to the sounds of the Arabian Sea crashing on the coastline...are numbered.


godot,

I my 23 yrs of growing up in India I`ve NEVER EVER seen a hindu drinking cow-urine or s*it....hindus in the US havent done it in front of my eyes, either.

But some illustrious hindu Chowkies have told me that there are hindus who do that routinely! One even told me that he saw a hindu running to a cow who was about to take a leak & helped himself to warm shower!

So just because you havent come across some pratices doesnt mean it doesnt happen . We Chowkies belong in a minority diaspora who have not really been in touch with the ``real`` India or Pakistan.

That DOES it!! I wanna be a Parsi!! Who cares who eats my flesh after I die?

Godot,

Dont try to have the last word in this- you have made sweeping statements, set up little trip wire sentences and then play little games in response...if you wont explain what you mean, you dont get to write sentences like ``people like you...`` -its bad form. You apparently have had this headache long before I showed up....now tameez seh baath karo.

Samina (140),

``People like you don`t have the capacity to understand people like me.``

I rest my case. And thank you for saving me a headache.

Goodluck to you too and regards.

Godot,

I beg your pardon?

I suppose that only the folks who are brave enough to ask themselves uncomfortable questions and understand the myriad of oppressions against Other non Muslim people and all orientations must constantly explain themselves, justify the morality of humanism, explain why just because your family has liberal mores doesnt mean the struggle against misogyny is irrelevant, its only you who doesnt have to submit your conditional morality to any rigorous inquiry.

Thanks for saving me time as well; good luck with your work, may you spend a happy future with your buddy Psycho head.

regards

hamidm2 (136),

Okay, perhaps you are closer to the ``core`` Pakistanis than me. I come from a very Muslim yet very liberal family. Using religion to justify atrocities and degrade women is something I haven`t experienced personally. I count among my friends a Pakistani who is so orthodox that he wouldn`t accept interest on his money from his bank. Yet, he is among the most moderate and rational persons I know when it comes to decency and rights. But, still, going back to Pakistan, unless a comprehensive poll is taken in Pakistan on the issues you and I disagree with, I wouldn`t believe it. So, until then, I suppose you and I just will have to agree to disagree on this.

Yes, I agree. I like Maureen Dowd very much. Finally, you and I have something in common! [ Hope you don`t find this too upsetting!!!]


Ras (137),

Khuda Hafiz rocks!!!

++

From the article:

Consequently, hardly surprising, burgeoning Muslim male population with no outlet for dissent and debate is turning to radically militant Islam, but plausibly not a fault of others.

++

Badly constructed sentence.

-ew

godot

no, no,no ...... i haven`t shifted focus at all ..... i maintain that if you took a poll in pakistan the vast majority will vote for blasphemy laws ...... as for women, an even bigger majority wil tell you that asma jehangir is a woman of ``loose character`` and an american agent and that women should stick to their knitting as prescribed by islam .......... this includes the common man spitting ganderis in raja bazaar and the sphisticate sipping nimbo pani on the verandah of islamabad club ...........and if i may say so, i know what i am talking about because i still spend a lot of time in raja bazaar and islamabad club .............exposure to this virulent form of islam has blinded us all equally.......... american muslims are perhaps even more diseased - if you don`t believe me take a trip to your nearest mosque and talk to the god-crazed brothers and their abaya wearing sisters ............

P.S. maureen dowd rocks - in today`s column she has us pinned: ``a society engaged in a momentous struggle for its future, torn between secret police and secret undergarments. ``

hamidm,
TOUCHE......

There used to be a time when religion was not a tool used to back fascism and that was even during our lifetimes.

FUNdamentalists have decided to quit having FUN.

And you are right on another count.

Most of my old friends are afflicted
too.

Khuda Hafiz...

Sorry

Allah Hafiz....

Dear saminashah: I think it is the ``teacher` in you that tries to explain and clarify when something is deemed not right. You do not have to respond and please everybody about preconceived notion and self laothing. Those are the words thrown at you without seriously understanding the meanings of them in relative terms.
All of us conceive our notions based on our understanding and experience of yesterday or past few years. A rational preconceived notion is better than faith based preconceived notions of 1400 years ago because only you would be hurt if your preconceived notion is wrong but look at the risks (actual realities in real time) of faith-based preconceived notions of 1400 years ago.
Self loathing is only important if you laothe the most important identity or anything that you held very dearly. A person X with Islam as most important identity can not justfiably label `self laothing` to another person Y whose order of identities is quite different. If you love your top ten identities and laothe eleventh to the extent of ignoring or abandoning, labeling self laothing would not be correct. A beautiful mind and talented individual should not lose sleep over a comment regarding one of the nails on the left foot. Theek hae naaN?

++

From article:

... Nowhere in the entire Muslim world, rule of the law runs supreme and/or judiciary independent enough and free of executive interference to deliver justice in a true sense. Consequently, hardly surprising, burgeoning Muslim male population with no outlet for dissent and debate is turning to radically militant Islam, but plausibly not a fault of others.

++

Okay so rule of law is subverted and citizenry are oppressed and they do not have enough freedom to debate and disent. So why would they adopt radically militant Islam against outsiders? Would not a more natural consequence be a revolt and a civil war? Instead they adopt radically militant Islam and wage jihadic wars against their neighbours.

Okay fine the author has argued that followers of Islam have butchered more Muslims than number of Muslims killed by outsiders. But a few paragraph before author gives two exceptions to this. Palestinian and Kashmiri jihads. Assuming number of Muslims killed by outsiders would be proportionate to number of outsiders killed by Muslims it would seem that first victims of jihad are Muslims. My question is: is this why the author has written this article? This article would not have been written for a million years had not had a significant adversery of Islam had not been provoked. As long as outside adversery of Islam were inflicted minor damages thinkers of Islam would not have felt a need to explain jihad. So let us accept that jihad and only jihad which even author wished to talk about was jihad against outsiders. And let us accept that absence of enough freedom to debate and disent at home cannot be used to explain jihad against outsiders.

My submission is that since genetics cannot be used to explain all these violence amongst Muslims, only other source that can explain is: ideas. The main source of ideas Muslims draw on is the Quran. Since especially misanthropic parts of Quran are beyond question there is no future for Islam on planet Earth.

If an ancient text is found which does not have misanthropic elements then Muslims have some hope of salvaging their religion. Even if slightly different ancient text is found one may throw doubt on accepted version. But Muslims are not interested in making such discovery. Others cannot be expected to take interest in finding such texts. First you have to go to virulently anti-nonmuslim countries to make any discovery of this sort. Even if slightly different ancient text is found task of questioning accepted version is not easy.

Muhammad`s wars may be legitimate response to aggressors he faced. I do not reject historical Muhammad and historical Jesus. But all the rest is nonsense. A Muslim will never accept a rational explanation of his ``communication with the Allah`` as possibly arising out of a psychiatric phenomenon brought on by (say) extreme starvation. Or something else we will never know. And Islam will always remain at loggerheads with rest of world. Any positive contribution Islam was capable of making has already been transmitted to west. No one will shed a tear if Islam disappears from face of Earth.

-einsteinwallah

hamidm2 (117),

I see you have shifted the focus yet again. Well, in the 50+ years that Pakistan has existed, which Government or Assembly has represented and carried out the wishes of ordinary Pakistanis?


Samina (128),

I don`t have time to waste with clueless people. People like you don`t have the capacity to understand people like me.

++

#90 by hamidm2 on November 8, 2002 4:44pm PT

...... jerry falwell and pat robertson are prime examples of the crazy christians who have it equaly bad ............

++

hamidm2, read following quote: ``I read enough of the history of his life written by both Muslims and -- non-Muslims, that Muhammad was a -- a violent man, a man of war.``

You know who has said that. For a moment forget who said these words. Just evaluate these words on its own merit and on its own meaning. Are not these words true? Do not say yes ... but. Just a frank evaluation of the meaning of these words.

You also know the full quote prefaced above statement by declaring Muhammad as terrorist. Sure Falwell is crazy. He has crazy views about gays amd lesbians etc etc. But the example of Muhammad`s wars is constant inspiration or source of legitimation of jihad.

Two things needs to be done to make Islam hospitable on planet earth which has more (islamic) non-believers than (islamic) believers:

(1) Muhammad was probably justified in fighting his wars
(2) Concept of jihad is totally unnecessary for Islam

But (2) instantly leads to a crisis in Islam because even the so called ijtehad is not allowed to quetion core beliefs written up in Quran. With ijtehad you can discover Theory of Relativity but you can not question Muhammad`s words. (Since I am not an islamic person I am not 100 percent sure whether the concept of jihad is a unijtehadable concept or not)

This is why in another post I have written: Islam`s time is up. Either it mends itself or it will end itself. It seems mending Islam is not an option.

-einsteinwallah

hey dost (post 111)

finally an example of a hindu with some spine:

New Delhi ‘encounter’

Witness being intimidated
Daily Times, Nov 10, 2002


NEW DELHI: A witness, who contends a shootout at a New Delhi shopping mall was staged, said on Saturday police had tried to intimidate him to change his statement.

“Some police officers came to me on November 5 and asked about what I had seen. I told them to calm down and said there was no cross-firing during the encounter,” Hari Krishna, a doctor, told reporters here. “They said I was wrong and tried to intimidate me and then threatened me. I know they are quite capable of putting me into prison and getting me murdered,” he said.

Human rights activists and newspapers have also questioned the police account of the shootout at the busy upscale Ansal Plaza shopping mall on November 3 - the eve of the Hindu festival Diwali.

Hari Krishna has said the two men appeared drugged and were unarmed when they stepped out of a car, unable to walk properly. “Either they had not slept for several days or had taken a heavy dose of sleeping pills,” Krishna earlier told The Asian Age newspaper. “The police fired about 30 to 35 bullets. It lasted hardly a minute.” He denied that the men had been carrying a bag crammed with weapons, which police, later, produced as evidence, claiming that the two had planned to mow down shoppers. —AFP


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-11-2002_pg8_1

Hamidm2,

Youre damned right about American Muslims and the growing freakiness among some of us. About 2-3 years ago, my ma d-r-a-g-g-e-d me to a Pak-American charity event where the money went to support some godforsaken political party...``Christy`` (so populist, dont you think?) ``Miss Environment not`` Whitman gave some speech after a 9 year old boy translated a sura in the Q`uran warning us all about premarital sex...now, I`m going to say that its either going to be all downhill for this 9 year old from then on, or he`s going to be laughing about this 10 years from now over some Booda (Buddha for weed) and when he goes home, his ma is going to tell him that Buddhism has some not so fun religious laws as well. As for us, you know the answer; its all gone downhill for us since that stultifying boring night, horribly horribly downhill...

Hamidm2,

Youre damned right about American Muslims and the growing freakiness among some of us. About 2-3 years ago, my ma d-r-a-g-g-e-d me to a Pak-American charity event where the money went to support some godforsaken political party...``Christy`` (so populist, dont you think?) ``Miss Environment not`` Whitman gave some speech after a 9 year old boy translated a sura in the Q`uran warning us all about premarital sex...now, I`m going to say that its either going to be all downhill for this 9 year old from then on, or he`s going to be laughing about this 10 years from now over some Booda (Buddha for weed) and when he goes home, his ma is going to tell him that Buddhism has some not so fun religious laws as well. As for us, you know the answer; its all gone downhill for us since that stultifying boring night, horribly horribly downhill...

Once again, Godot,
I am asking you to back up the claim that self introspection that is not delusionary is self loathing. Stand by your guns, man or stop the dithering...surely you can translate your own thoughts and not just the works of the masters....

Hamidm2, SameerJB,
Not a single day in my life passes when I don`t mourn how out of hand things have gotten...where the mere idea of tolerance for all beliefs is assaulted on a daily basis by Muslims who should have enough self respect to allow other peoples to have their beliefs....how much affection can you have for the khandan at Biriyani dawats when most folk are tenuously attached to those narratives that will make them forever innocent, forever unaccountable....enough already.

sameerjb

...... i don`t know, but something has gone terribly wrong in the last twenty five years ..... when i was growing up we were all muslims but islam was not the big deal that it seems to be today .............. i didn`t know anyone who prayed five times a day or sat around debating the pros and cons of jihad .................the masjid between D and E hall at UET couldn`t muster more than three rows of namazis on a good friday...... the jamatis at new campus used to have the best flash game in town at one rupee boot ............a friend of ours od`d on mandies and vat-1, took off all his clothes and declared his nabuwat - everyone laughed and for years and we sang `` wo dekho aa rahey hain muhammad jinhon ne pahnee hai patloon kalee`` whenever we saw him approaching .........and even i was content with being a ``muslim`` and islam never really bothered me ........... we went to bari imam to drink bhang with the malangs, and to data sahib to get stoned and get a free meal ....... the only time religion was a problem was when they shut down heera mandi for ten days in muharram and we couldn`t go visit the gorgeous tops-wali girl ( remember her? she was in the movie ``road to swat`` with kamal ....``) ................

...... my grandfather`s generation didn`t seem to know much about religion other than the fact that my grandma would run to kohat and sacrifice a black bakra once in a while ........on my father`s side, my grandma smoked a chillum, wore a dhoti that showed her leg all the way to her skinny thigh and couldn`t tell which way was kaaba if her life depended on it ..........my mother made halwa and zarda and kheer four or five times a year for eid-i-milad-un-nabi and chahar shamba and shab-i-barat ............i didn`t know anyone who wore the burqa or the chaddar ......... my mother donned the top part when we entered sarki darwaza in peshawar or turned onto gurdat singh road in quetta - but it was a meaningless pathan thing that had nothing to do with islam ............ my father ranted like a mad man twice a year to find his jinnah cap for eid prayers and looked so silly and awkward while praying that we all laughed ( i guess i must have inherited it from him - my kids laugh every time they see me pray) ........... islam used to be gurday kapooray at eid, fireworks at shab-i-baarat and a few trips a year to pir sahinb at kohat, with a picnic on the way ............ it was all good fun .........

............ what happened ? .....at first i thought it was an american-muslim sickness that made people behave like arabs, dress in abayas, call total strangers brothers and sisters, have little boys scream the azan and pray ba-jamaat, go to tafseer and disect koranic verses, separate men from women, and talk about jihad and the ingredients in halal toothpaste ................then i found people in pakistan, who had once been reasonable folks, were also afflicted by this terrible disease ........... what happened and where are we headed? .......... may allah have mercy on us and protect us from the demons that are let loose in the month of ramadhan (formerly known as ramzan)..............

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{I don`t know any Pakistani, and I know quite a few, who approves the blasphemy law in Pakistan - Godot}

This is the face of Pakistan presented to the world. Yet Christians in Pakistan live in abject fear of being jailed and murdered by Pakistani government for the crime of uttering one wrong word within the earshot of any mullah.

Pakistanis belive that jihad is peace and growth, we are told. Yet Pakistani parents take their children to large jihadi gatherings where speakers openly call for the blood of non Muslims in the name of Islam:

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2002-weekly/nos-10-11-2002/dia.htm#1

{Another constant theme with the speakers was jehad. There was hardly any speaker who did not stress the need for jehad in present times. Hafiz Abdus Salam Bhutvi termed jehad a religious obligation for all Muslims and that it would continue till the Day of Judgement.

Contrary to popular belief that Islam spread in the subcontinent with the efforts of the saints, the Jamatud Dawah claims that Islam spread with the use of the sword. Hafiz Abdur Rehman Makki echoed this belief when he said that the supremacy of Islam in the world is possible only with the help of the sword.

There was a large number of young participants at the convention, many of whom had come with their parents. The interpretation of Islam and the concept of jehad advocated by Jamatud Dawah are thought to be widely popular in the Pakistani society. This is one reason for the increasing number of parents sending their children to such organisations, as there are almost 20,000 students studying in Jamatud Dawah`s 131 schools all over the country. Like in the past, one of the banners at the ijtima advocated the establishment of a ministry of war and the abolition of the ministry of defence.}

Ferozk, Rsridhar:
Check out this book, `What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response by Bernard Lewis`

Ref. Godot`s post #121

Preconceived notion appears to be your forte, dear Godot. I recall this recent interaction when you barked at the authors of a Chowk article. I think this proves the point in crystal clear terms.

______

#7 by Lucy on October 22, 2002 4:12pm PT
Ref.: Godot`s post


``With Indian PPP of US$ 2,390 it is fourth largest economy in the world! This is a joke!``

It is always wise to think before speaking so you don`t make a fool of yourself like you just did. You don`t have to believe these authors. Just go read the World Bank`s latest reports. The link is provided below for your convenience. In case you have trouble reading, the data is in the 8th column from the left. You can scroll up and down to your heart`s content and check the data for every country to convince yourself that India is indeed the 4th largest. How does it feel to be a clown? ;)

http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2002/tables/table1-1.pdf

_____

Ciao,

Lucy

godot #121

I was not wrong about godot. He is not the original hydra, but hydra in a more refined skin. The only distinction is that the hydra doesn`t put on a mask here, godot does.

dost-mittar #111
``Ronald Reagan, called these mujahids the greatest freedom fighters, feted them in his white house and compared them to the pioneers of the ``land of the free````

True. Reagan termed it a fight for democracy. ZiaUlHaq was toasted as the great friend of democracy and the Afghan war lords the equivalents of the US founding fathers.

Needless to say, the expedience of a white man or a Haji doesnot make something either Allah`s jihad or fight for democracy. I had an Afghan woman friend who was an engineer. Those who paid to make it unsafe and later punishable for someone like her to earn a living honestly were either great Hajis espousing the greatness of jihad or great democrats like Reagan espousing the greatness of defending democratic values or spineless authors like this one calling jihadis `dedicated and valorous`. Excuse me if I am not impressed.

Is it that she and others like her were not Muslim enough or democrats enough or dedicated and valorous enough to become warlords or jihadis or Afghan founding sisters on behalf of Afghan working women? My point is its best to accept the reality that terms like jihad are used to mask less than noble objectives and even dirtier means.

hamidm2 #107
Calling something a war instead of jihad doesnot change the implications of people killing and dying in large numbers.

godot

``I don`t know any Pakistani, and I know quite a few, who approves the blasphemy law in Pakistan, considers women beneath men, or looks down on Hindus as a mere idolaters``

..... then why can`t musharraf, the most important pakistani of us all, repeal the blasphemy law ?......... think about it - he can repeal everything else..... heck, he can rename the days of the week if he wants to, but he can`t go against the dictates of ``true`` islam ............ and why couldn`t the last asembly declare honor killings a crime? ............ the answer is simple : the vast majority of pakistanis - not the palo alto crowd that you seem to know - believe in this version of islam ............. i am talking about the unwashed masses and the council of islamic ideology ............ people like najam sethi and asma jehangir do not represent the ummah - the cii does .........

.........it is a sad fact that the vast majority of pakistanis still believe that the jews were behind 911 and the ahmedis are heretics - this includes generals, retired bureaucrats, college professors, stanford bound students and travel agents .......... the java sipping crowd that believes otherwise is a tiny minority that can be hanged in the stadium on a single friday afternoon, inshallah................

re: faisaluno #113

...you`re a sick ba$tard...using others` suffering to score political points instead of accepting that jihadi terrorism needs to stop...

rsridhar #99: You are falling for the same trap as many others that Islam needs reinterpretation, suitable to 21st century. In the presence of better alternative, above does not make sense. One reinterpretation, agreeable to all, will not work as one shoe does not fit all. Additionally speaking in terms of misinterpretations and reinterpretation suggest inherent truth hidden within. My arguement is that religions are necessities and not absolute truths. Religions are like common spicies in cooking such as garlic, ginger, salt, onion, peppers etcetra. It is individuals choice how much of each ingredient to add in a dish or not add at all. A reinterpretation of two cloves of garlic per kilo meat instead of misinterpretation of three cloves previously makes no difference. Moreover, the condition of either two cloves of garlic per kilo meat or get ready to burn eternally in hell will stay no matter how clearly and completely the amount of garlic is reinterpreted.
Basically Islam needs to be looked separately from spiritual and doctrinal/ collective/ practical/ political point of view. At individual spiritual level, like individual taste for different combinations of spicies, it has been always reinterpreted for individual need and taste throughout history except for the last 200 years when one interpretation was imposed, since Mohammad Bin Abdul Wahab of Wahabi movement. It is for the last 200 years that one interpretation is enforced as duty/ farz instead of taste/ needs. Until 200 years ago, Sufis in particular interpreted Islam in thousand different ways depending on taste (culture)/ need (social). Innovated techniques were added with varying degrees of importance and interpretation of shariat (duty - independent of needs and taste). Within India, Sufis developed many beautiful innovative individual spirituality without forcing it as duty. Some Sufis went so far they are more respected outside Islam than within now. Has any Muslim heard of Bhikan Shah of Banaras? Non Muslims know and respect him more than Muslims for his role in Bhakti movement.
Therefore, thousand/ million interpretations are better and necessary depending on individual Muslim need and taste than one standard, old or modern at spiritual level. There is absolutely no need to worry about this part.
When it comes to standardized ethos and the rest in practical life, it has no role to play in 21st century. The Ummah shummah and other political/ collective concepts need abandoning and not re-interpreting. Now not only it means to enforce a two clove garlic per kilo meat policy but cooking for community together in big pots (`langars` only) as crude concept of faithful Ummah. Jihad at individual level is more like a dedication to any cause but political/ collective Jihad has no role except to provide canon fodders for the benefit of few at the top/ rulers/ kings/ invaders.
The reduction of Islam in practical life of individuals and elimination of Islam from influencing politics, foreign policies and society is the solution, not reinterpretation. Muslims need seculars, liberals and not Muslim Democrats or Modern Islamists.

Samina (110),

Preconceived notion seems to be your forte. 12-head is not wrong about you.

now that you mention chechnya:

“as a candidate, george w. bush was asked by larry king what he thought
of russia`s actions in chechnya. ``not acceptable,`` replied bush. ``and that`s why we need to cut off foreign -- the aid to russia.`` ``now?`` king asked. ``yes, absolutely,`` bush insisted, adding, ``the nations of the free world [must] condemn the -- you know, the killing of innocent women and children”

fareed zakaria, wp, nov 5, 2002

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/a5348-2002nov4.html

“for months now i have thought about an eight-year-old girl who was repeatedly raped by russian soldiers in chechnya after watching her mother go through the same. the child apparently did not cry at all and let the men push her on to the next, then the next rapist. she told her aunt she did not want to upset further her bleeding and screaming mother. her father had been shot and her two brothers had disappeared, and like the african american writer maya angelou, who was raped as a child, this girl is now wilfully dumb”

yasmeen alibhai-brown, independent, oct 28, 2002

http://argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/yasmin_alibhai_brown/story.jsp?story=346500.

On a lighter note:

A jihad every day

Hafizur Rahman
The News, Nov 6, 2002

If I had the authority I would ban the use of the word `jihad` except for jihad proper. Which means that a committee of the most reputed Islamic scholars would decide whether the campaign or movement or activity for which it was intended to be employed warranted it to be called jihad or not. Since I can never hope to be such in authority, I hope the MMA, the party of maulvis, will do this for me if it joins the government.

It is not only the public which misuses this sacred expression; every ruling regime is constantly announcing the launching of jihad to weed out corruption, lawlessness and violence from society, or some other social ill. A cynic, and a wag to boot, once asked me, ``Does this means the government is going to do jihad against itself?``

Since we, the Muslims of Pakistan, are apparently incapable of living up to the noble ideals of Islam -- jihad included -- we try to pull the ideals down to our prosaic and material level. Islam is not too demanding a faith, but it does ask for morality of a high order, and a sense of sacrifice based on love for mankind and unselfishness of a rather sincere sort.

Being disinclined to rising to the occasion, we make the occasion climb down to our limited capacity for doing good. In this process we trot out our individual versions of Islam. But I am not here to write about the treatment that we and our political and religious leaders have meted out to our faith. That is too vast a subject for the likes of me. Let me confine myself to jihad as a plaything in the hands of tub-thumping orators and cheap slogan-mongers.

In the history of Pakistan we have had three full-scale wars with India. All three were referred to as jihad. I am not scholar of Islam, but I would like to know from those who are whether a war that ends in a cease-fire, sought by the Muslim contestants themselves, can be called a jihad. I remember Maulana Maudoodi, founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami, arousing the anger of Pakistani Muslims when he refused to see the Kashmir was as Jihad. I don`t know what his views were about the two other wars.

The fourth `jihad` that we have seen from close quarters was in Afghanistan, in which we Pakistanis enjoyed free participation. By free I mean without actually joining the struggle (except for private volunteers). It was a kind of vicarious participation. It was almost like saying, ``We shall not rest till the last drop of Afghan blood has been shed.``

And what about the pseudo-jihads that we have conducted? There have been many over the last half a century. We have fought a jihad against illiteracy and lost it. Then we`ve had one twice a year for tree plantation. There was a jihad against irreligious socialism, and since it was aimed at the poor man`s welfare it succeeded. There have been jihads in support of charities, to promote vaccination and national savings, against wasting water and electricity, even one for elimination of mosquitoes, and others too numerous to mention.

The common factor in all these jihads was that, by and large, they were dismal failures. Not one of them succeeded completely despite the fact that in our misconceived zeal we tried to make them worthy of the noble sentiment associated with this sacred word. The only jihad in which we have always come out successful is lip service to Islam.

A senior police officer of Punjab told the press some time ago that a jihad had been launched to counter crime. Well, the past experience of the public shows that apparently this is not the job of the police, but it was good of the officer to say so. He did not take the press into confidence as to what the police had been doing so far. But it is most comforting to know that from now on the police will tackle crime too. I only hope the men haven`t been put on this new duty without some kind of training, because, from what we read about other countries, dealing with crime and criminals can be pretty dangerous.

Some ten years ago the Lahore police conducted an operation (most improperly given the name of jihad) in Hira Mandi, the city`s red light district. The newspapers were not able to tell us what the policemen did there, but it was given out that the officers were satisfied with the results. What form these `results` took was not disclosed. However I remember an Urdu daily writing in its light column that the men wanted to go there again the next evening but a strong protest from police wives stopped the operation.

Today the religious parties are united politically and call themselves MMA. Good luck to them for putting their ideological differences aside. But long before this unity came about there was an association of theirs called the Milli Yakjehti Council. One day it decided that a jihad should be launched against obscenity, vulgarity and shamelessness, but it wanted the government to conduct it. Apparently the government was unable to espy obscenity, vulgarity and shamelessness anywhere, so the whole thing fizzled out. But I notice that the MMA too talks about it `if we come into power.`

The field for our type of jihad is so vast that you can have a new jihad every day and remain busy with it all the year round. If the new government would only appoint me as its adviser on the subject (preferably in Grade 22) I promise to suggest ever-new jihads which can be undertaken at a moment`s notice.

It is said that a jihad against an interfering and nosey press was on the anvil many times during the military regime, but somehow the regime could never bring itself about to begin it. Then, according to the government`s advisers from the World Bank there is need to launch a jihad against the low rates of petrol, gas, transport, etc. The only way to discourage the use of these luxuries is to bring about a sudden and substantial rise in their rates and solve the problem once and for all.

The Ministry of Education is quietly but persistently engaged in its old jihad against literacy. Its day and night efforts have managed to contain the national percentage of literacy at 20. Some unthinking critics of the government believe that the ministry can`t tell the difference between literacy and illiteracy, but that may be an exaggeration. Meantime the jihad against the teaching of un-Islamic subjects like science is proceeding apace.

Of course the final and biggest jihad -- the mother of all jihads -- is against that chronic cancer, democracy. They very mention of the word gives sleepless nights to some important sections of the population. It began soon after Pakistan came into being on the strength of democracy itself, and has been going on unabated ever since. From what the people have seen during the last 55 years, there seems to be a fair chance of its success.

#111 by dost-mittar
//...It was not only the muslim who eulogised the jihadis back then, the white man did so too....//

true. The Jihad child born out of unholy union between the white master and the islamic whore has grown up now and viciously biting back the master and the whore. If the situation wasn`t so tragic - the horrible hindoo would have been laughing its a** off. Now give the credit to the horrible hindoo when it is due - he did told you so.

And horrible hindoo is not as ``spineless`` as you think.

Here are some other articles with spirit similar to this one:

My Rath Yatras --- Some Misperceptions
by L. K. Advani

Good Governance === Some Misperceptions
by Narendra Modi

I wonder when they will appear on Chowk?

You get the idea. Here we have a concept that is being used in the most horrific way to torture non-muslims (and of course, naturally muslims as well). Instead of saying: we have gone mad, we need to reject comletely this whole business and its foundations from our history, we have this apologia for murder.

#104 by sadna on November 9, 2002 0:19am PT
//...armed jihad was a compulsion until 911 when a number of whites got killed and some angry whites got nasty. Daisycutters have elicited an `introspection` among noncave dwellers which millions dead and devastation in a neighbouring country could not manage to elicit in 20 years...///

Amen. Sadly for the non-cave dwelling believers - the Jihad chicken has come home, in more ways than one. The white masters are really mad and the ``cave-dwelling`` brothers are even madder. Visas and goodies from white masters have dried up and the islamic ``brothers`` have threatened to impose sharia, islamic banking and other assorted glorious islamic ``value systems``.

The ``introspection`` is too late now.

Godot,

I disagree with you completely. Perhaps you can extend your ideas on why you think that unflinching introspection is self loathing?

hamidm2 (90),

For you one sentence, as you interpret it, is a blot and nullifies the rest of the article. The author is not an apologist for Jihad. The understanding of this article, just as everything else in life, is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is diametrically opposite of mine. That`s all I have to say about it.

I don`t know any Pakistani, and I know quite a few, who approves the blasphemy law in Pakistan, considers women beneath men, or looks down on Hindus as a mere idolaters. Perhaps that is the fundamental difference between you and me: the company we keep. And you know what they say about company one keeps: a man is known by it.

Also, your agreeing with Jay (another form of company,) for me, defies rational thought and logic. Jay is, as you once very eloquently put it, a ``one legged syphilitic whore`` who claims to be a virgin and for him others are morally corrupt; he is a one-eyed hunchback who shamelessly calls others ugly without looking into the mirror. And you agree with him! To me, then, anyone writing on jihad is a lot more credible than those with your chain of thoughts and logic!!!

sadna

....... let`s not confuse jihad with a war of liberation or just any old plain old war fought for a just cause ...otherwise we will end up condemning folks like muhammad, patton, macarthur and sivaji .............war, in its purest form, is a nobel human endeavour ........... jihad, in any form, is bad ...........now if the guys in kashmir stopped bringing god and his prophet into their battles with the occupation army i would be all for supporting them ........ if only they were decent, hard drnking guys who went to church on sunday and fought monday through saturday ..........so let`s not generalize and confuse a just war with god-induced lunacy ............pretty soon our president bush is going to launch a just war to get rid of a mad man and knock some sense into the ummah ..... ar you going to label him a jihadi ? ............ remember- war can be good, jihad is always bad, and there is nothing wrong with killing your enemy as long as you don`t invoke god`s name while doing it ..................

re:#102 by ferozk
Thanks for your kind comments
Sridhar

The plain fact is that armed jihad was a compulsion until 911 when a number of whites got killed and some angry whites got nasty. Daisycutters have elicited an `introspection` among noncave dwellers which millions dead and devastation in a neighbouring country could not manage to elicit in 20 years.

Similarly Mr White Putin only said after the recent Moscow theatre incident `Russia will attack any country which offers even moral support to terrorists` and lo and behold a couple of days later Mr Najam Liberal Sethi wrote an editorial about how `nonstate actors` had unnecessarily involved themselves in the Chechen war, their selfish agenda leading to increased human cost of the Chechen war and persecution of the poor Chechens. Meanwhile, in other news those who continue to throw grenades at civilians and their elected chief ministers in J&K are still `dedicated and valorous` and on an average 20 die every day.

Jihadi rationalists are basically hynenas and jackals who have no problem scavenging for pickings until the White Lion comes out to hunt, at which time these hynenas and jackals suddenly acquire policy and the need to introspect. India should learn something from this.

The harsh truth is jihadi killing and dying has exactly the earthly consequences which any other killing and dying have, even if, brace yourselves, the killed is nonMuslim and the person dying is a Muslim jihadi. Those who indulge or condone killing and dying for any reason need to fully comprehend the consequences of these inhuman acts in this world, from which consequences stories of rewards in the next donot offer escape.

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freethinker: Islam is best, Muslims are bad is not acceptable logic. Muslims are bad because they followed Islam believing it the best while rest of the world followed evolution path of progress, justice and morality. Muslims followed a fixed path whereas others followed dynamic path, at least for the last 500 years. What stopped Muslims from following the same evolutionary path except Islam? If they followed the wrong meanings of theoretical Islam, wouldn`t it be better to not follow it at all thus excluding the probability of mistakenly following the wrong interpretation? This is what hamidm, nasah and myself are advocating - to seek solution elsewhere. Assuming you and author correct, the danger of mistake has terrible consequences in the case of Islam as the current state of affairs of Muslims exhibit. then you said:
[Another thought provoking line is, “Only by recognizing that the long term dividends of emulating the MIT, Harvard, and Oxford exponentially surpass….. Jihad Academies at Khost, Muridke, or Arora Khattak, we can make progress”. True, this indeed is noteworthy. ]
To me this is a terrible statement. First it talks of long term dividends as if short term dividends could be in favor of Akora Khattack and Muridke. There are no dividends for such Academies. Secondly author does not have the option of stating otherwise because that would be utter nonsense. Think about other options with regard to the above statement, such as “Only by rejecting the long term dividends of emulating the MIT, Harvard, and Oxford exponentially surpass….. Jihad Academies at Khost, Muridke, or Arora Khattak, we can make progress” or “Only by recognizing that the long term losses of emulating the MIT, Harvard, and Oxford exponentially surpass….. Jihad Academies at Khost, Muridke, or Arora Khattak, we are bound to retrogress”. They are absurd options and nobody would like to say them.
Islam is dangerous for Muslims due to the built in high probability of misinterpretation. There is no guarantee of things turning to good by following true and right interpretation either. As they say in Urdu: ``Musalmano, Iman kee rassi ko mazbooti se thamey raho............and keepyourself suspending directionlessly and aimlessly until pulled up by the rope to heavens and eternal life after death.

Re: rsidhar # 99

I agree with most of your observations and as a post-script, it should be added that the present crisis, in Islam, is a political crisis cloaked within religious arguments.

Islam and its interpreations have to understood in the context of the prevailing situation. It is like studying case law and creating precedents; each situation is different and cannot be decided on the basis of what happened in the past, but taking nuances of the situation into account, a better understanding is created towards solving the problem. To pursue this legal metaphor a bit more, Islam, like jurisprudence, has to interpretative based on the prevailing mores and values of the society it is existing within. It cannot be literal, because it is impossible to re-create the societial values, which existed nearly 1400 years ago and gave Islam its early ethos. It should be pointed out that Islam`s Golden Age resulted as a response to applying the teachings of Islam within a contempoary world and the early rulers of Islam did not hark to the past, but tried to deal with the issues facing Islam in a contextual framework of the day.

In this sense, Islam and its adherents cannot regress, because that will not solve the problems of Islam. It simply will not solve the problems, because the problems facing Islam 1400 years were different than the problems, which Islam is facing today. Problems, by their defination, are dynamic and have to resolved within their own merits and do not subscribe to simplified, formulaic and instant solutions. They have to be understood in their individual contexts and the nature of the problem has to disciphered in light of its own contradictions. For Islam to answer the questions facing it today, it has to start discovering what those questions are; if it cannot ask the right questions, it will never understand the problems facing it and thus, will be incapble of solving them.

Yes is much to be said about the statement that ``the past is the prologue``, but the past helps in understanding the future by offering insights or by shedding light on past experiences, which ease the task of the present. However, despite all the benefits of studying the past and learning from it, the future cannot be lived in the past! That is what Islam has to decide; it should look to the past for gaining inspiration for the future, but it must not look to the past as a subsitute and a remedy for the ills of the present ushering in a tommorow`s utopia.

I applaud you, Rsidhar! Your post was one of the more sane, rational and unbiased posts I have had the pleasure to read on Chowk in long time on serious issue!

Ciao

++

#25 by AmericanExpress on November 6, 2002 8:11pm PT

Do you really think Kashmir problem,political intricasies history of independent Princely state is the same as GUJRAT ??????

++

No they are not same. The Princely state you mention was ruled by a Hindu ruler who had signed an instrument of accession in which India had agreed to give special treatment to it.

In Gujarat there was provocation to kill. In Kashmir there was no provocation to Pakistan to attack Kashmir.

-einsteinwallah

re post 90:

when have papers like friday times and dawn spoken in favor of the blasphemy law or the hudood ordinance? do you have any idea of the physical threats journalists face when they speak out against such lunacy? easy to make statements like these when hidden behind the screens of a computer. much harder to stand up on pakistan chowk and say these things

re: Terrorism and islam
My 2 cents on this.
I see 2 main issues here:
1. Failure of Islam to change with changing times. Even though the book is the same, its message has to be put in the context of our present day living. If chopping off someone`s hand for theft was unavoidable in medieval Arabia (even then i hate to think how it could be desirable), it cannot be practised today. However, interpratations of Qoran (Shariat?) has not kept pace with the changing times. Mullahs have been living in a time warp.
2. The nexus between clergy and the ruling elite in forcing the entire muslim Ummah to a certain view to serve their narrow ends, which in case of mullahs is to perpetrate their hold over the population and in case of ruling elite, is to keep ruling. It is well known that Clergy in saudi Arabia are all in the payroll of the Saudi Royal family and it is Saudi Arabia which is becoming the focus for the extreme views that is coming out of there. Even Egypt has clergy under state payroll and have been airing extreme view points. The two, clergy and the ruling elte have a symbiotic relationship. They seem to say: you rub my back and i will rub yours.
What is needed today is a reawakening by educated muslims who should try and isolate the violent elements and bring Islamic teachings to the modern context. Only a modern prophet can do it. But then, when such a prophet comes along, the whole islamic world will reject him as Prophet Md (PBUH) has already said there will not be another prophet after him. Quiet a dilemma!
Sridhar

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freethinker

So many people of diverse backgrounds have written so much on jihad that it seems to have lost its meaning. It has indeed become a word of hatred, violence, radicalism, and negativism. No matter who writes on jihad, he will not succeed in restoring it to any worthy station. It is time we left it alone.

Battles are fought day and night without waging a jihad. Communal killings take place almost incessantly without a mention of jihad and not many people take any notice of them either. Terrorism is not the sole monopoly of the “holy warriors”; many of those who are fighting terrorism now had committed terrorist acts in the past and will do so again if it served their purpose. Human beings are sadly selfish and ruthless in attaining their ends by whatever means. Pointing accusatory fingers at people whom we do not like is human nature.

September 11 was a human tragedy and cannot be justified whatever way you look at it. The perpetrators were terrorists.

That said and done, let me mention that the author wrote some poignant lines in his article. For example, “Social equality might be a fundamental tenet of the theoretical Islam but virtually non-existent in all Muslim countries”. How true? What we write so frequently about Islam is indeed about ‘theoretical Islam’, which is practiced in none of the Islamic countries. Many of the authors of such perceptive articles also do not practice what they write. The closest that any country has come to practicing the theoretical Islam in its social aspects, is our USA or several other countries in the west. Majority of the Muslims do not practice what they preach; what they practice frequently contravenes what they preach and what they write. I had concluded one of my Opinion Columns at the Pakistan Link (Human Rights in the Islamic Milieu – 2, September 20, 2002) by stating, “Islam in theory is so very different from Islam in practice indeed”.

Another thought provoking line is, “Only by recognizing that the long term dividends of emulating the MIT, Harvard, and Oxford exponentially surpass….. Jihad Academies at Khost, Muridke, or Arora Khattak, we can make progress”. True, this indeed is noteworthy.

If the author is not a hermaphrodite – the article is….

re:#71 by faisaluno
You seem to get excited very fast. Did you read the article that you posted in its entireity? Tom Friedman goes on to say that Tamil diaspora realised the futility of violent struggle and has stopped helping these militants in Srilanka after LTTE was declared a terrorist organisation.
The Tamil struggle in Srilanka is entirely political. The LTTE suicide bombers never claimed to do these acts for the glory of hindu religion. They did it for their own narrow political end. Most (>99%) Tamilians (and certainly all level headed middle class Tamilians) in India do not approve of what LTTE has been doing. LTTE`s political patronage by Tamil politicians from India rapidly vanished after Rajiv Gandhi`s assasination, which was both traumatic and embarassing and shameful for Tamilians in India.
LTTE is the most ruthless terrorist organisation that has ever come into being. It humbled Indian Army and has kept Srilankan army at bay for several decades. It is however running out of steam. Recently, V.Prabhakaran, the LTTE supremo gave a press conference and showed interest in coming to an agreement. I think there is a truce right now. If there is something Islamic terrorists can learn, it is that no violent armed struggle ever lasts for ever and there comes a time when one has to find a peaceful solution. Violence never pays in the end.
Sridhar

godot

the author, another mealy mouthed apologist for islam, says, ``It would be unfair to mistrust the dedication and valour of the jihadis ``

...... you have to be a true believer or a total imbecile to get past this and still believe that he is sincere in getting over his fascination with the glory days of badr and the conquest of mecca ..........it is a stalling tactic ......... ``let`s fix dar-ul-aman and then we we destroy dar-ul-harb``........ most muslims are so full of their own piety and righteousness that they refuse to acknowledge that there might be something inherently wrong with their faith and value system .............. that`s the reason you cannot find three people in pakistan who are willing to publically declare that the blasphemy laws are a travesty and that women are people and that the poor pigs and hindoos are simply one of god`s creation ..........not to say that muslims are the only people who suffer from this debilitating disease ...... jerry falwell and pat robertson are prime examples of the crazy christians who have it equaly bad ............ but that does not absolve the ummah ............

................ we don`t need self-serving apologists to tell us that islam is good and that the muslims are bad ......... we need someone to tell us that, regardless of what the khulafa-i-rashiden did or said, it is not healthy to share your tent with your camel and beat your wife and break idols..............

++

#14 by Rizwan on November 6, 2002 1:11pm PT

`Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged. And Allah indeed has power to help those who have been driven out of their homes unjustly only for saying ``Our Lord is Allah.`` And if Allah did not repel some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been pulled down wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered. And Allah will surely help him who helps Allah. Allah is indeed Powerful, Mighty.` (Al-Hajj 40-1)

This passage from the Holy Quran leaves no doubt whatever that a religious war is not permitted by Islam unless it is against a people who force another people to abjure their religion; unless, for instance, Muslims are forced to abjure Islam.

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How many islamic jihadic wars were fought in past for ``another`` people who were being attacked primarily because of their religious belief?

I need just one example.

-einsteinwallah

dost-mittar (#84),

I think it has a lot to do with putting up a front. I don`t think any father or mother however poor or illiterate will ``celebrate`` the death of a child (unless it`s a dysfunctional family). That is so inhuman.

A lot of it has to do with peer pressure, of being brainwashed by the leadership of whatever ``struggle`` their child is part of that he did it in the larger interests of the cause. The parents and family daren`t say that it was meaningless that their child died for fear of letting it down.

Picture of al-queida suspect detainees being transported to guantanmo bay.

http://europe.cnn.com/2002/US/11/08/detainees.pictures/

Picture of al-queida suspect detainees being transported to guantanmo bay.

http://europe.cnn.com/2002/US/11/08/detainees.pictures/

I am sure, dr aziz (who was detained for questioning) may be in this grp.

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#9 by sameerJB on November 6, 2002 9:00am PT

... When swords wielding Muslim hordes and invaders were hoisting flags over territory after territory in Asia and Africa using jihad, nobody bothered to challenge or reinterpret the meaning of jihad and other so-called peaceful aspects of Islam. ...

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Ottoman empire once touched Moscow and Vienna also. By the time WWI ended it shrunk to what is today Turkey. So, what went wrong? (In fact there is book entitled ``What Went Wrong`` on the topic of fall of Ottomans). Clearly their rigidity. And first source of rigidity is their strait-jacket religion. It is so stifling. No questioning can take place. So how can Science or Technology flourish?

Islamists constantly talk about all kinds of good things of west originating from their culture. Evidence for this is sketchy. The contribution of Aryans in Asia is ignored. Even when a lot of western culture owes to Islam a lot of this was secondary and borrowed from Greeks and Aryans and Westerners improved upon them immensely. Sure, west took whatever it found good from any source. In some cases they got from Islamic workers a copy of the original destroyed by wars etc.

Some Islamists mention Avicenna as a great example of how great scientific achievements were made during Islam`s days of glory. (One URL on his life: http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Avicenna.html ). But Avicenna had to struggle during those times. He was thrown into prison by some Islamic rulers. I know what the reply of some Islamists would be. That these Islamic rulers were not true followers of Islam.

Islam in current form cannot survive for long. Islam has got to reform. Reform or disappear from face of earth. Reform or Get out.

-einsteinwallah

Dear Readers:
I remember reading somewhere a senior Pakistani politician Khan Abdul Wali Khan proclaiming (not verbatim) that he had been Pakistani for the last 40 years, Muslim for 1300 years and Pashtun for 4000 years. Without challenging the anthropological authenticity of his claim, I wonder, wouldn’t it be appropriate to go one step further, “we have been human beings for the last millions of years”?

As it was beautifully said, “life is too short to love, I don’t understand how people find time to hate”. What a misfortune that in our region, all of our energies are dedicated only to hating each other, under one pretext or the other. Our foremost interest/concern seems to locate dividing factors by all possible interpretations and then exploit them to foment resentment. Never ever we strive to identify, let alone magnify uniting features.

Is it really that hard to comprehend that pain has NEITHER any religion NOR any colour? The agony of a mother who has recently lost her offspring, the torment o