An All-Inclusive Rejoinder to All the Chronic Complainers

tahmed #100

Very well said. Very well, indeed. Thank you.
I shall work on it further.

tahmed,

At some level, as an educated person, you have to accept taht acountry that charges income tax based on electricity consumtion has no basis what so ever to prepare any kind of realistic national accounts.

It is al the more pathetic when you say that the finance ministry is headed by a well known pakistani economist. Look, your country is a dogs breakfast. Expose it, do not white wash it.

TAhmed:

Jay is the intellectual capital we have export restrictions on, to prevent our image being sullied.

arjun #110 you write ``intellectual capital being sent back to India ``
I hope for India`s sake that you and jay are not representative of the ``intellectual capital`` being sent back to India.

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CASE OF PAKISTAN,

Pakistan has no basic economic system to bring about any kind of progress. In pakistan it is the electricity company that collects income tax from bussinesses, that is income tax is a percentage of the electricity bill.

There are shops selling imported goods, the exise duty collected is based on the number of shutters the shop has.

With this kind of system, the entire notion of national accounting, the GDP, investments, tax revenue...these are all crap.

What the UN and the WB publish as national account data are what is provided by the countries. The entire country called pakistan is a sham.

rsridhar #107 GNP, and GNP growth rates, is a crude, defective guage at best of progress. This has always been understood by the more clear-eyed economists, and is increasingly more so when significant segments of the population are emigrants whose income is not included in GNP figures. To quote Burki again (who is a fine economist, and an absolute gentleman whom I have had the pleasure of meeting off and on for some years now), emigrant Pakistanis (about 4 million of them a few years ago) are generating as much income as the GNP of Pakistan itself! I doubt if any of this shows up in the GNP of Pakistan, and yet the impact on Pakistan is there for all too see - entire families are supported by earnings from the middle east, for example.
The same is true for India as well, of course. Thus, for the region as a whole, it is external factors that are the engine of growth - not just job opportunities but also the opening up to more positive thinking (at least for some emigrants). Clearly the traditional cultures, values, superstitions-that-pass-for-religion, and so forth of both Pakistan and India have nothing to contribute other than violence, misery and poverty. (I am exaggerating, but unfortunately not too much).

Re: Burki`s article in Dawn
No doubt, Pakistan has saved itself from being a defaulter by agreeing to co-operate with USA. The latter has rewarded Mushy with readjustments in debt and soft loans.
But, unless i missed something, Burki does not say how Pak is going to go on to a higher growth rate. What is going to spur that growth? There is a severe water problem and Pak will have accentuation of the problem in future. Pak, unless one forgets, is (like India) a predominantly agrarian economy.
What else has Pak got? IT. But IT in Pak has failed to take off.
All that Burki`s article in Dawn (pointed out by our chowk general) says is that Pakistan is doing some right things: like getting SBP on right track, privatising some sick units etc. Consider the following from that article:

``The best example of this is perhaps the much celebrated performance of the Indian economy over a fifteen-year period from 1985 to 2000. Readers would recall that for nearly forty years after independence the Indian economy was stuck at what their own economists called the Hindu rate of growth. Once the highly debilitating licence raj began to be dismantled, and the hold of the Indian bureaucracy on the economy began to be loosened, the suppressed growth the country had experienced for so long catapulted the economy towards a considerably higher growth rate.

The same could happen in Pakistan. Like India in 1947-85, Pakistan too has experienced suppression of growth for a decade and a half. Once conditions are put right, we should expect the rate of growth to bounce back. ``
Again, all presumptions! Once Pak puts conditons right, it too can have same growth rate as India . No mention of the booming IT industry in India, the fact that this boom has a lot to do with careful nurturing of some centers of excellences like the IITs, IIS during the period of ``hindu growth``. NO mention of how democracy and liberalisation has unleashed a ``thirst`` for knowledge among the middle class, which is sustaining the IT boom and spilling over into other areas like biotechnology.
If Pak has to duplicate what India is doing, it has to be a sustainable democracy (ensuring continuity of reforms), shed its jehadic aspirations vis-a-vis India and the world and most importantly have trade with India. It makes a lot of sense to catch the elephant`s tail and go where it goes rather than reinvent an elephant!
Sridhar

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Shahid Burki is now bullish on Pakistan (as am I):

One of the most well-recognized Pakistani economists in the world, Rhodes Scholar and ex-VP of World Bank has the following to say:

``For forty years, between 1950 and 1990, Pakistan was transformed from being by far the most backward area of what was once British India into the most prosperous and vibrant part of South Asia. I had then said - in particular in a long lecture I gave in 1997 at the annual conference of the Pakistan Institute of Development Economics - that policy missteps by Islamabad in the 1990s had turned Pakistan from a healthy economy to the sick man of South Asia. Had my views changed? Did I continue to be as pessimistic as I was in the late 1990s, or did I see now some reason for hope?

My answer was simple. I had shed my pessimism and I saw considerable reason for hope. This switch in my perception was the result of five developments in Pakistan`s recent economic history each one of which suggested that the country could begin to grow once again - to change the structural rate of growth from the present three to four per cent a year to six to seven per cent a year in the next several years......

One of the most impressive legacies of the Musharraf period is the restoration of health to the financial system. A group of highly dedicated and professional managers has guided public sector commercial banks away from bankruptcy. Privatization has reduced the public sector`s share in the banking sector.

Complete article at http://www.dawn.com/2002/11/26/op.htm

re tahmed32 (# 99):

thanks for not taking my last post personally. i do think that the person at the top of the pyramid can make a difference. i have a detailed response at the ``games generals play`` board.

S,P, Wakil #95 Perhaps the Peter Principle (we can indigenonize this by calling it the Pakistan Principle) could be stated thus for Pakistan: Every incompetent inter-graduate becomes a commissioned army officer, thus making him eligible to transfer his incompetence to every top post in every institution in the country, and to the top post of the country itself.
Would this work??

faisuluno #94 you write ``do you honestly think that having the prince of darkness lording over the current cast of whores will make pakistan a prosperous country twenty years down the road? ``
Hey, I am allowed to dream, am I not?? :-)
Seriously though, I dont think the prince of darkness or his bearded whores (or any government for that matter) is as important to the future prosperity of Pakistan as people (both for and against the government) imagine. External factors are far more important, at least in case of Pakistan and other developing countries whose current culture provides very little impetus to progress. Prosperity in other parts of the world - PARTICULARLY the neighboring parts which include not just the gulf states but increasingly India as well to the east, as well as other up and coming or mature parts of the world.
So let the VVIPs of Pakistan (uniformed and otherwise, bearded and otherwise, fat like fazloo and skinny like mushy) scoot around in their motorcades, with sycophants buzzing around them like flies around a sick buffalo. The saving grace of Pakistan lies in development outside Pakistan. And in the innate qualities of the Pakistani people in terms of hard work and enterprise which has allowed millions of them already to benefit from these influences.

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S. P. Wakil: How are you doing? Long time no interaction.
Remember ``khar-e-mugheelaN lai bahar, te mele mitraaN de``.

re: faislauno


...how`s that ``military`` government in south korea doing?...

re tahmed32 (post # 59)

Your response is typical of a kgs/kas democrat who has never missed a meal in his life and who probably never took the time to find out about the life of the driver who came to class each day after school ended to carry chotay sahibs basta. Any idea of price of mutton in Karachi? how much do you think does it costs to visit the neighborhood general practitioner? How about the price of a litre bottle of johnnie walker black in karachi? Do you think the peon who works for habib bank and makes pkr 8,000 p.m. and supports a family of 7 including his sick mother really gives a rats ass about who is sitting on the throne in margala. Do you honestly think having the prince of darkness lording over the current cast of whores will make Pakistan a prosperous country twenty years down the road? And do you seriously think that the prince will voluntarily hold elections that will return a government that will throw his ass back where it belongs? Might be a moot issue if you are one of the people who has benefited for the prince’s legendary generosity to his friends.

re tahmed32 (post # 59)

your response is typical of a kgs/kas democrat who has never missed a meal in his life and who probably never took the time to find out about the life of the driver who came to class each day after school ended to carry chotay sahibs basta. any idea of price of mutton in karachi? how much do you think does it costs to visit the neighborhood general practitioner? how about the price of a litre bottle of johnnie walker black in karachi? do you think the peon who works for habib bank and makes pkr 8,000 p.m. and supports a family of 7 including his sick mother really gives a rats ass about who is sitting on the throne in margala. do you honestly think that having the prince of darkness lording over the current cast of whores will make pakistan a prosperous country twenty years down the road? and do you seriously think that the prince will voluntarily hold elections that will return a government that will throw his ass back where it belongs? might be a moot issue if you are one of those people who has benefited for the prince’s legendary generosity to his friends.

tahmad #90

I am holding my breath to see the Pakistani counterpart [of sorts; after a fashion, that is] of the old ``Peter Principle``.

re tahmed32 (post # 59)

your response is typical of a kgs/kas democrat who has never missed a meal in his life and who probably never took the time to find out about the life of the driver who came to class each day after school ended to carry chotay sahibs basta. any idea of price of mutton in karachi? how much do you think does it costs to visit the neighborhood general practitioner? how about the price of a litre bottle of johnnie walker black in karachi? do you think the peon who works for habib bank and makes pkr 8,000 p.m. and supports a family of 7 including his sick mother really gives a rats a$$ about who is sitting on the throne in margala. do you honestly think having the prince of darkness lording over the current cast of whores will make pakistan a prosperous country twenty years down the road? and do you seriously think that the prince will voluntarily hold elections that will return a government that will throw his a$$ back where it belongs? might be a moot issue if you are one of those people who has benefited for the prince’s legendary generosity to his friends.

The solemn occasion of Genral Musharraf administering oath to the prime minister-select Mir Jamali almost brought tears in our eyes especcially to see them stnding soulder to shoulder --

what a heartwarming sight!

aik hee suf meiN khaRe ho gaye mahmood-o ayaz!!!!

Some worth reading articles from todays News and Nation are by Humayun Gauhar, Khurram Dastgir and Farrukh Saleem. Here is somethig interesting about Sardar Zafar Ullah jamali from Farrukh Saleem`s article:
[On the lighter side of the Prime Minister House, Ghous Akbar, the proud Pakistani joint-venture partner of McDonald`s, may soon be asked to build a McDonald`s right within the premises of the PM House. The House now hosts the biggest -- literally so -- Pakistani fan of the Big Mac. From among the 140 million Pakistanis spread over 778,720 square kilometres, Ghous Akbar is to become the largest supplier of fat, calories and cholesterol to the PM House. For the record, one Big Mac has 590 calories, 34 grams of fat and 85 milligrams of cholesterol. The PM`s standard snack of two Big Macs between meals means 1,180 calories, 68 grams of fat and 170 milligrams of cholesterol.]
As Humayun Gauhar said: ``Farce is piling upon farce`` for the last three years and continuing.
khamkhwa: It does not matter if Musharraf now dislikes mullahs because USA likes him now. The military-mullah nexus has been in existance for the last several decades. Field Marshal would not comment on the easing of graduation requirements for the sake of mullahs. The government directly interfered in many places to save mullah candidates from disqualifications by returning officer for not having anything closer to graduation degree. In the list of 102 seats to be rigged in Punjab and Sindh, not a single one effected a possible mullah victory.

khamkhwa #88 Thank you for the explanation sir. It makes things worse, unfortunately, when you say that ``The rank came into question because`` of Romairs incorrect claim that Musharaff went after the mulah brigade and that you ``know for a fact that a gentleman officer of Pak army does not lie``. Exactly what rank does an officer need to reach before he becomes a gentleman-who-cannot-tell-a-lie? Is it when he receives the ``lal fita`` (full colonel an above), or is it from the day he recieves his commission?
And how about all those below the line? I assume they are advised that the are not gentlemen and so may lie whenever they please.
In any case, it is nice to know that we are being ruled by truthful gentlemen who perform a coup d`etat faster than Nur Jehan used to change lovers.
(Sorry to give you a hard time, but seriously - all men really are equal, whether they are generals or mere lance naiks).

Attended a gathering where Husain Haqqani spoke in Berkely recently.
Will send a ``politically incorrect`` version to CHOWK soon.

``Enough is enough``

Ras

tahmed32#73&80
Janaab-e-wala,
I have a great deal of respect for all humans specially the ones in khaki.
The rank came into question because of this prediction:
(I had predicted he would go after the mullah brigade, when everybody said he was a part of that brigade like Zia. And he did.)
To my knowledge none of the mullahs arrested after 9/11 is in jail or under house arrest,and I know for a fact that a gentleman officer of Pak army does not lie. As for my question mark on ``racistly hate``,it was a new word for me and has nothing to do with tidiness ;)

````LKAdvani has said in parliament that India will always be secular.`` (rsridhar)

If a Masjid Vandal and a miscreant like Advani -- can by civlized by the rigors of Deputy Prime Ministership -- there is hope for the Bamiyani Vandal Fazlurrahman Abu Omar -- when he takes the NEXT Prime Ministership of Pakistan -- sometimes soon.

this might help explain romair`s point of view

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23614-2002Nov21.html

Bravo!! Coming Direct Dil Se... (or dimagh se?)

Anyway! A very well written piece of work!

khamkhwa #72 It appears from your statement that you believe there is a positive correlation between military rank and tidy writing.
Hmmmm.....

Romair: Actually I would tend to join you in commending Musharaff for putting on the Jamali Fig Leaf. Certainly an improvement over the naked use of military power. And certainly good to see Maulana Fazloo denied his aspirations to becoming the Fig Leaf.
More seriously, if Musharaff continues steadily to promote the growth of healthy politics in Pakistan (meaning with basic freedoms of the people assured, with checks and balances within the government strengthened), then some of us may join you in your praise for this man. I fear that aint gonna happen, though.

IN CONCLUSION:

``All acts of an illegitimate ruler are illegitimate and so is the current government.``(sameerjb)

bless you sameer miaN.

i could see one happy man in new Cabinet i-e , Sheikh Rashid Ahmed .....he is back in his favourite ministery, where he can easily persue to showbiz chicks:

Reema, Meera, Nirma etc. Congratulation Sheikh Sahib is back, now get ready for foreign tours.

only competent person i can figure out in this new cabinet is Zubaida Jalal............. Khurshid Kauri as foreign and Faisal Saleh as interior ...oh paleez...Liquat Jataoi and Ghous Bash ........God help us and why Rao Sikandar is senior minister? and who are these state ministers.....

ROmair #67

``Unlike Ayub and Zia, Musharraf did not gain form the system``

The Chief of Navy who resigned a week before Oct 12 1999(the date of the coup) recently said Musharraf carried out the coup because he didnot want to be courtmartialled for Kargil.

``Unlike the ``democrats,`` he is not corrupt``

Tell me again, those who break laws in the constitution are called corrupt, and what are those who overthrow the entire constitution to protect themselves from prosecution called? Take a guess and look below.

``He has made himself a part of the system now, even if he is not financially benefitting from it``

He HAD to make himself a part of the system simply because he is liable to charges of treason and sedition for overthrow of the constitution, just like he had the coup to prevent his own courtmartial.

Now he cannot afford an unsympathetic National Assembly ever, as he will be in fear of prosecution all his life. No wonder he looks worried these days, the above has only just become apparent to him, he had not thought the whole thing through earlier. (why does this seem typical?).

Of course the harried look could be that `real` democracy is the least of his concerns and the real item on his mind is that he now knows where Bin Laden is hiding and given his rather stern friends the MMA(thats another thing he never thought through), he can neither give Laden up, nor can he be sanguine about how the US will respond when they find out that he knew..

Intertesting article about Zubeida Jalal
http://www.satribune.com/archives/nov18_24_02/P1_jalal.htm
Will the Real Zobaida Jalal Please Stand Up and Explain

By Hasan Jan

QUETTA: Another “clean” minister of General Pervez Musharraf has now revealed her true colors and it has now been confirmed that this “simple looking Balochi doll” used her position as Minister to get a USAID grant of millions of dollars for her own NGO in her province.

Projected as General Musharraf’s favorite for the prime minister’s slot, the real Mrs Zobaida Jalal is not what her public relations image has been made out to be, in the media, among the elite and even to top US White House circles.

Zobaida Jalal has added her name to the list of not so clean members of General Musharraf’s cabinet by getting her NGO, `Mand Trust` several million dollars out of a total USAID allocation of $60 million. This she did in a very clever and calculated manner, using one of her friends and an Education Ministry Adviser to sit on the Board of USAID to disburse the millions which had come from Washington.

This friend, Ms B. Jamil, acted on her behalf and ensured that Jalal’s NGO got the money, although Jalal was supposed to be supervising the fund and was not supposed to apply for the money for her own NGO. It was a clear case of conflict of interest.

She created an aura of simple grandeur around her, posing that General Musharraf had great confidence in her and was going to make her the next Prime Minister. It is believed that even when she left the Education Ministry to contest the elections, her minions made sure that the US money got transferred to her NGO.

----------------------------------------------------------
And another article about Imran Khan
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/
Shameful, is the word

Kamran Shafi

The writer is a retired army officer

and a freelance columnist

kshafi1@yahoo.co.uk

Oft have I pointed out that if there are two ways of doing something, one good and one atrocious, we will always do it the atrocious way; that we will make a mockery of everything we do; that we will always do the wrong thing and make absolute fools of ourselves, to the absolute derision of the rest of the world. This time around, look at the way in
This reminds me. I had requested Mon General to consider awarding the game-warden, a `subordinate` employee of the Punjab Game Department who had apprehended the Great Khan and his powerful friends, a high civil award (why not the Sitara-i-Pakistan?) for doing his job and doing it well. As a matter of fact, when the Great Khan went public denying he was poaching, the warden went public too to say that he might well be a poor man, but he had himself caught Khan and his friends. I request the President once again, for this is one of the few times in recent memory that a public official has done his duty well and honestly, and in the public eye.

khamkhwa #72 You are going to hate me for this, but in addition to indicating your belief that military rank and tidy prose go hand in hand (as I already mentioned below), your post also shows a sincere respect for military rank. I am sure that General PhuN PhaN would be pleased with your attitude.

Carry on, soldier... :-)

A memorable line spoken after the vote for election of prime ministe at Pakistan NA:

``yeh zamir ka vote naheeN, General Zamir ka vote thaa``!! -- wah Maulana

Gen Zamir is the ISI chief -- zamir is conscience

re: democratic exercise in Pak
I read in Dawn yesterday that swearing in by the ministers was quite a fiasco. When the oath was being taken, ministers were supposed to substitute ``I`` for their individual names. Looks like they did not do so, resulting in quite a laugh and merriment all around.
On a different note, LKAdvani has said in parliament that India will always be secular. This is a significant statement coming from him: http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=268699
Sridhar

the problem with romair............

........... romair exemplifies the gallant officers of the pak army who never give up, except on the battlefield, and who think they know what is good for the country ......... it comes from the arrogance and stupidity that is bred at kakul and risalpur and perpetuated by the fauji foundation and the shaheeen foundation ............. it comes form the deep-rooted belief that the army officer is the only clown who can run this circus .........these gentlemen believe that the clowns in khaki own the circus ............this myth, which has been perpetuated by the likes of ayub, zia and musharraf, continues to fog the mind of the fauji .......... it doesn`t matter what everyone else sees thinks, as far as romair and his ilk are concerned, musharraf is the saviour ............ they see true democracy where everyone else sees a farce and a sham ...........they don`t teach the principles of democracy at risalpur, and they certainly don`t teach them to withdraw from a obviously bad position - unless it is kargil ..........

............ it will be interesting to see how many generals are included in the new administration and how many colonels are inducted into the railways ........... one thing is certain - we will continue to have only one brand of corn flakes ..............

``The sitting govt. is already allied with the President (and the Army) so the Army and President won`t kick it out. Only the opposition can kick it out.``(romair)

agree 100% with romair -- and agree 100% with sameerjb -- the opposition should kick it out...

maale haraam bood basooey haraam ruft

racist Punjabis?????? what does `muterwa` mean anyway...does that word indicate some kind of racist thought on the part of punjabis? *confused*

Romair#67

[racistly hate]

Sir jee, I asked your rank earlier also but you were too busy to respond.
Now I don`t need to know....for me the above quote is enough.

Roamings of a roamair

“I have supported Musharraf, throughout, from the time that many racist Punjabis were calling him a, ``muterwa`` dictator…..”

“I was too young to remember Ayub. I opposed the govt. of Z. Bhutto outrightly, as barely a young teenager. I opposed Zia, even though I was in the military at the time.”

‘I opposed Benazir and Nawaz to the point that I actually ended up joining a political party. That is how much I hated them.”

”Musharraf was the very first leader I supported, in my whole life.”

“I went against the grain, and supported Musharraf. I still feel I can tell a good General from a bad one…”

“I will continue to support him over them, until a better one appears. But, unfortunately, I cannot say that he is the second best since Jinnah. That position still remains unfilled.”

“I, no longer, have the love of my land that I had as a soldier, when I was ready to die for it in a second.”

“I am, like so many Pakistanis, still a patriot. And as a patriotic realist, I still support Musharraf.”

“I am still in search for the, ``second best since Jinnah.``”
____________________________________________________________

“I am more pragmatic and self-centered now”(romair)

Dear romair – pragmatic may be -- but ‘self centered’? --- NO WAY:-)

I opposed Musharraf from day one. I did not know NS or Musharraf personally for one and only one reason. The constitution of Pakistan did not allow unlawful means to overthrow an elected government. It is actually trason according to constitution. Only reason Musharraf overthrew a civilian government was his power hunger. Being COAS is the only position from which power could be grabbed with ease. Holding on to power beyond his rubber stamp Supreme Court clearly attest to his hunger. For three years he has been ruling and manipulating the system to fulfill his ambitions - the PCOs, LFOs and constitutional amendments. He has used military discipline to advance his ambitions whereas the purpose of military discipline is to efficiently defend the country and not lining up turncoats through NAB threats and files. He destroyed the emerging two party system and democratic institutions.
The economy is not much better now than on October 12, 1999. Only difference is accummulation of forex as a result of buying in the open market, decline of hundi system repatriation, IMF and WB releasing loan installments without trouble and total stoppage of almost all civilian development projects. Except for the last factor, rest are the result of US involvement against terrorism following 9/11/2001 incidents.
All acts of an illegitimate ruler are illegitimate and so is the current government. Sooner this government and Musharraf leave, better it is for Pakistan. Opposition must try their best to bring down this government and Musharraf as soon as possible to be replaced by an interim set up of civilian national unity government for one year with elections in October 2003. Beg those five honorable Supreme court justices who refused to take oath under PCO, to come back to SCP with their seniority in tact. Nawabzada Nasrullah for President and Asghar Khan as prime minister for one year, dropping all cases against BB, NS and Altaf Hussain immediately and allowing them to return as soon as possible. For once, SCP must declare overthrow illegal without handing down punishments to culprits.

End of another innings
--------------------------

Now that the new govt has been elected, and all the MNAs are in place, I think they should all at least do one thing:

Make sure they don`t spend all their time trying to bring each others` govts. down. This is exactly what Benazir and Nawaz did to each other. Benazir put Nawaz`s old father in jail. She nearly shut down his business empire. Nawaz put Asif Zardari in jail (where he still is). Both parties ran pillar to post, from Chief Justices to COAS, in an attempt to kick each other out. It reached a stage where each party had to literally fly all their members and lock them up in guest houses, to make sure the other party did not steal them away for no-confidence votes.

What did either of them gain by this? Both of them are out and are now trying to be united. They have even been unable to do that, since the PPP tried to hoodwink the MMA and ARD, due to which the PML(N) is now with MMA.

The sitting govt. is already allied with the President (and the Army) so the Army and President won`t kick it out. Only the opposition can kick it out. The opposition should only concentrate on pointing out the corruption of individual ruling MNAs. It should make it a point that it will let the sitting govt. complete its term. If it doesn`t do that, then we will be back to square one.

Musharraf should also now retreat into the background, and only come into the foreground if there is corruption to check. Shaukut Aziz and Ishrat Hussain are still the financial bigwigs, so they should be able to make sure everyone stays clean.

The other important factor are the women MNAs. This is almost a revolution for women, and for that the outgoing govt. deserves a hell of a lot of credit. The women MNAs, most of whom are feudal off-springs, should make sure they concentrate more on protecting women`s rights in a united fashion, rather than protecting their own feudal rights.

Religious minorities are also very well represented now, through joint electorate, and through reserved seats. They are more enfranchised now than Pakistani Muslims. For this, the outgoing govt. deserves a lot of credit also. The empowered minority leaderss should concentrate on using their power to protect minority rights also.

Unfortunately, my prediction is that unless the PPP and/or MMA comprimises with PML(Q), the sitting govt. will not last more than two years. Not because the President will fire it (as many people fear), but because the opposition will bring it down.

----------------------

I have supported Musharraf, throughout, from the time that many racist Punjabis were calling him a, ``muterwa`` dictator, for ousting the, ``Punjabi`` regime of Nawaz Sharif. I have absolutely nothing to gain from this personally. I had predicted he would hold elections in three years, when everyone said he wouldn`t. And he did. I had predicted he would go after the mullah brigade, when everybody said he was a part of that brigade like Zia. And he did. I think he has stabilized the economy and has given women and minorities great power. Three things which, when it comes down to it, are the most important things in a society (even more important than democracy - for, what is the benefit of democracy if it leads to poverty and cannot protect the most suppressed elements of society, ie. women and minorities).

Pakistan is no longer a potential failed state - for this Musharraf and his team, deserve our thanks - dictator or no dictator.

I was too young to remember Ayub. I opposed the govt. of Z. Bhutto outrightly, as barely a young teenager. I opposed Zia, even though I was in the military at the time. I opposed Benazir and Nawaz to the point that I actually ended up joining a political party. That is how much I hated them.

Musharraf was the very first leader I supported, in my whole life. The easiest thing for me to have done was to use my career in the military as a base, and oppose him outrightly, thereby gaining cheap popularity amongst the peanut gallery here on Chowk. An Indian criticizing India is worth fifty Pakistanis criticizing India, and vice-versa. Similarly, an ex-fauji criticizing a fauji could have become a hero to people like SameerJB, who racistly hate that whole profession.

But, I went against the grain, and supported Musharraf. I still feel I can tell a good General from a bad one. He is about as, ``good`` a dictator as possible, that the Pakistan Army can produce. All others, previous and future, will be worse.

So did he completely live upto hte high standards many of us had set for him?

Unfortunately not completely. He should have gone after the feudals (a lifelong unfulfilled dream of mine) like he went after the maulvis. After that, he should have resigned into the Boston sunset, after Oct. 12 of this year. Two things he did not do.

Due to the complete famine of leadership in Pakistan, no one since Jinnah has emerged on the scene, who did anything worthwhile for the country. This would have made Musharraf the second best leader in Pakistan, in my book since Jinnah (though there is no comparison between the two). Unlike Ayub and Zia, Musharraf did not gain form the system and did not make his family a part of the system. Unlike the ``democrats,`` he is not corrupt.

But! He has made himself a part of the system now, even if he is not financially benefitting from it. Even if this is with good intentions, it breaks the rule of ethics. Due to this, all I can say now is that he is still the best option amongst the other available leaders, and I will continue to support him over them, until a better one appears. But, unfortunately, I cannot say that he is the second best since Jinnah. That position still remains unfilled.

Leaders should never be, ``just the best available option.`` They should be role models. And when they have played their innings, people should be asking, ``Why is this person leaving us,`` not, ``When will this person leave us.``

I, no longer, have the love of my land that I had as a soldier, when I was ready to die for it in a second. Like all civilians, I am more pragmatic and self-centered now. But I am, like so many Pakistanis, still a patriot. And as a patriotic realist, I still support Musharraf. But as a patriotic idealist, I am still in search for the, ``second best since Jinnah.``

Who knows, maybe Imran Khan or Zubeida Jalal........Or maybe no one....

Lets see what happens, now that the old politicians are back in power.....

Following the frontal attack by three chowk heavy weights, temporal, sac and hamidm, field marshal is retreating on the pretext of poor ministerial choices. I wonder he did not see the list of ``elected members of King`s parties. Humayun Akhtar - cousin of three sitting generals, son of Khamosh Hero Akhtar Abdul Rehman, Khrsheed Mahmood Kasuri - unable to speak Urud or Punjabi, detested by the people of his constiturncy for never living or visiting Qasur, was not considered worth minister during NS government, Faisal Saleh Hayat and Rao Sikander -price for floor crossing, Aftab Sherpao - second most corrupt Pathan of past 20 years after Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Abdus Sattar Lalika - good choice, Umar Ayub - oh sh1t. Compare this list with the list of people I provided in my previous post.
At least it confirms that NS was right in dismissing Musharraf - three years pf planning, thinking and implementing by the most expensive and most powerful organization behind Musharraf yielded this heap of garbage. We are so fortunate for not going to war under his leadership. Thanks India for not attacking us. With a person like Musharraf at the helm, we are/ were so vulnerable given the outcome of his planning of last three years within Pakistan.
And thanks USA for leaving him with no choice but buckle.

temporal: Good verse! The list of military perks you provided is actually lootmar of one time for one season. They do it every year. Romair always comes back with bogus arguement of putting the lives on the line for the sake of nation. Those who put their lives on the line actually get leftovers or nothing. Full one half or more people in the army provide services and nothing to do with putting their lives on the line. They are the ones who move up, grab fertile land pieces and plots. The military perks delivered to shaheed families are very tiny portion of spoils. Even Nishan-e-Haider does not make a family rich the way GHQ people become rich. Another noticeable point is presence of captains in that list. Except for Navy, only way to retire as captain is either discharge, incapability or corruption the way Gohar Ayub retired as captain from the army. All these captains are relatives of big families or serving military elite of GHQ. Two years of college at Kakul, two years to become captain, get retirement and posted in embassies in Berlin, London, Rome or positions in civil services. Cashing in on the blood of poor lance naiks and hawaldars........

Temporal:

Dude, you really should post English translations of your Urdu couplets. Kinda leaves us linguistically challenged people out in the cold otherwise.

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sac:

woh meri chain-e-jabeeN say gham-e-pinhaaN samjha
raaz-e-maktoob be bay-rabti-e-unwaaN samjha

...t

(thud thud...clicking heels...about turn...march off into sunset!)

re: faisaluno #50

...good joke...should`ve included america in that list too...

``Sources said that about eleven ministers are in the federal cabinet. Faisal Saleh Hayat has been named as Interior Minister, Abdus Sattar Lalika (Agriculture Minister), Humayoon Akhtar and Umar Ayub (Commence Minister), Khursheed Mahmood Qasoori (Foreign Minister), Sheikh Rashid (Tourism), Kanwar Khalid Younus ( Production and Industry), Dr Ibrahim Jatoi and Dr Gaffar Jatoi (Health Minister). Rao Sikandar Iqbal, Ghous Bux Mahar, Aftab Sherpao and Zubaida Jalal are also included in the cabinet, the sources added. Shaukat Aziz is stated to be appointed as adviser.`` (www.jang.com.pk)

I hope the above isn`t true.

If the above list is correct, then Pakistan is going back to the days when the ministers had no clue about what they were doing. A Prime Minister is only as good as the people he/she appoints to head the ministries. He/she doesn`t need to do much more. The outgoing ministers were the most professional bunch Pakistan has had in my lifetime. They are all progressive, philanthrapic/NGO types, or others with proven international record. They did not have a single case of corruption against them in three years.

Abida Hussain, with a high school degree was the minister of Science and Tech. under NS. Zardari was the minister of Investment under Benazir (jackal gaurding the melons).

From the above list:

Kasuri is a good choice. Don`t know him personally though, but people speak highly of him. He would have actually made a good PM. I was hoping however that Maleeha Lodhi would be the Foreign Minister.

Zubeida Jalal is an excellent choice. She was minister of education under Musharraf. I think she should continue in this position or be Minister for women`s affairs. I think Musharraf has insisted she be a minister. She was my first choice for Prime Minister (Kasuri being second).

Hamayun Akhtar is suave son of Gen Akhtar of Zia days. He has a reputation of being a very sophisticated and very corrupt man. Don`t know how much of that is true.

Faisal Saleh Hayat is the Gaddi Nashin/feudal leader from Jhang. Him and his aunt Abida Hussein compete against each other. They are filthy rich and rule over one of the poorest areas of Pakistan, which continues to turn poorer. Terrible choice. Not to mention, a turncoat.

If Umar Ayub is the son of Gohar Ayub, then God help us. I believe he is only 23 years old, I think. He is the grandson of Ayub Khan. His extended family competes against each other. from every single party (PPP, ANP and PML). How can a 23 year old be a minister? He should be completing his studies.

I believe his mother, wife of Gohar Ayub, was also elected on a women`s seat. She is the daughter of Gen. Habib ur Rahman. This whole family, connected from Khattaks to Saifullahs to Ayubs runs the area. One generation takes over from another. Umar is the third generation now of the legacy Ayub Khan has left behind.

I hope against hope that Shaukut Aziz is kept as the finance minister. It is due to him and Ishrat Hussain (head of State Bank) that Pakistan`s economy has stabilized, and is now ready to grow, at least according to all international credit agencies. Stock market has more than doubled in three years, foreign exchange reserves etc. etc. NS had appointed his chief accountant of Ittefaq Foundries as the finance minister of Pakistan.

Welcome to democracy, Pakistani style, (with high school diploma holding minister of S&T)!! Musharraf is going to have his hands full trying to keep these guys and gals in line. I think he feels he can keep them from corruption by having the power to kick them out. Its too late for that now. He should have gotten rid of this lot, when he had the chance. And then retired to Boston.

Big mistake......

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Sac the exhalted one’s reaction is so predictable!

…one of the first things they teach in khaki school of aggression..after how to click heels smartly… is strategic withdrawal (and no this is not about orthodox birth control practices)…have no idea if baron clausewitz or bismarck or archduke ferdinand had anything to do with it…(you are free to pipe in feroz) ...i know mao said ..if the enemy advances we retreat and vice-versa….but then sac surely romair would know that in this holy month of abstaining from day time sex…among other things…we are not enemies…but brothers in a certain non-tablighi milieu…or does he not?

not!

...t

fasialuo #50 you write ``what about chile, south korea, taiwan, thailand, spain, portugal and turkey? dont see citizens of those countries complaining about army rule too much. ``
Ha! Ha! You are a born comedian. Now repeat that again with a straight face, and the talent scouts will come marching in. Just like in the song:
Oh when the tinpots
Oh when the tinpots
Oh when the tinpots come marching in...
Oh how I want to be in that number-r-r-r-r
When the tinpots come marching in...

The Washington Post, inspired no doubt by this chowk discussion, ran a front page article on the subject which I have (tastefully of course) cut and paste below for your reading pleasure.
PS to Romair: Maybe you should have stuck around in the army...

Title: ``Pakistanis Question Perks of Power
Many Say Military Confuses National Interest With Its Own ``
KARACHI, Pakistan -- Public schools here are little more than warehouses, grim concrete shells lacking libraries, sports facilities, sometimes even teachers. Classes have as many as 60 students. But the children of Pakistani military officers almost certainly are not among them. For them, there is Army Public School O Levels.
Geared toward preparation for the competitive O Levelexams required by British universities, the handsome school is an educational showpiece whose computer, physics and biology labs would not seem out of place in an American suburb. Teachers make three times as much money as their public school counterparts.
......There is no denying the military`s dominant role in Pakistan. The military owns the best farmland and several of the largest industrial conglomerates. Retired or active-duty military officers run the ports, postal service, electric utilities, sports federations, telecommunications authority, culture ministry, mineral development agency, anti-drug police, railroads, civil aviation authority, national shipping company and Pakistan`s biggest steel mill. They hold top administrative posts at the best universities. Many ambassadors are retired officers.

While Musharraf has vowed to restore ``real democracy,`` he also has tried to institutionalize the army`s role in politics with recent constitutional amendments that he says do not need parliamentary approval. ...Government officials say the military`s preeminent role is justified by several factors. They cite in particular the looming threat of India, with its lopsided advantage in population and resources, and the dismal record of civilian politicians who plundered Pakistan`s wealth and drove many of its institutions to ruin. ...One of the fanciest clubs in Karachi is the Defense Housing Authority County and Golf Club, a sparkling new facility with lush fairways, a two-story driving range and a gracious stone clubhouse overlooking an inlet of the Arabian Sea. Active-duty military personnel can join the club for an initiation fee of $16, compared with $9,166 for civilians, according to the club`s fee schedule.

...One of Pakistan`s most coveted addresses, for example, is the blandly named Army Housing Scheme II, which is built on the site of an old antiaircraft battery in the upscale Karachi suburb of Clifton. A gated community protected by paramilitary troops, the development consists of spacious, Mediterranean-style villas grouped around a playground and an elaborately landscaped Japanese-style garden. Nearby are clothing boutiques, jewelry stores, restaurants and a yoga studio.

...Durrani, the principal of Karachi`s army school, acknowledged that he is troubled by the military`s gradual encroachment on civilian institutions. At the same time, however, he has big plans for the school, including a new auditorium and perhaps even a swimming pool.

``I just have to convince the general,`` he said, referring to the school`s chairman. ``If the general wants to arrange for funds, he can.``

re temporal:

All right let me join the fun. Lets see how long the Field Marshal keeps blabbering till he makes a `tactical retreat` ala kashmir,kargil,Bangladesh etc. before trying again.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/838562.asp?0cl=c3

The authors of this piece are zionists and Indian agents of course.

later
-sac

...re: eric margolis...this is fcukin hilarious...romair loves to quote this guy but would get his undies in a knot if indians quoted francois gautier...

what about chile, south korea, taiwan, thailand, spain, portugal and turkey? dont see citizens of those countries complaining about army rule too much.

JUST TO KEEP THINGS IN PERSPETIVE PART I


The faujis are the new ashraafs…the syeds of syeds…closest and dearest to Allah and Mohammed (saw)…neither of whom allegedely discriminate ..but that is another discussion…here is a partial list of the real qualified pakistanis:


The Partial List of Civilian Posts taken over by Army Officials

http://www.satribune.com/archives/sep23_29_02/P1_armylist.htm


01-05: General Pervez Musharraf (President, Chief executive, Defence Minister, Army Chief and Chairman of National Security Council);(The COAS slot has been included here just to show the hats Gen. Musharraf wears. This job will naturally remain with the Army).
06. Major General (Retd) Muhammad Anwar (President of Azad Kashmir);
07. Lt Gen (Retd) Khalid Maqbool (Governor Punjab);
08. Lt General (Retd) Syed Iftikhar Hussain Shah (Governor NWFP);
09. Lt General (Retd) Moinuddin Haider (Federal Interior Minister);
10. Lt General (Retd) Javed Ashraf Qazi (Federal Communications Minister);
11. Col (Retd) S.K. Tressler (Federal Minorities & Culture Minister);
12. Lt Gen. Hamid Javed (Chief Executive’s Chief of Staff);
13. Major General Muhammad Yusuf (Chief Executive’s Deputy Chief of Staff);
14. Major General Rashid Qureshi (President’s Information Adviser);
15. Lt General Muneer Hafeez (Chief of NAB);



122. Brig (R) Mian Khalid Habib, Chief of Protocol, M/o foreign Affirs;
123. Brig Tipu Sultan, Director General, Ministry of Foreign Affairs;
124. Group Capt (R) Khalid Aziz Babar, Director General, M/o Foreign Affairs;
125. Naval Lt (R) Ghalib Iqbal, Consul General, Toronto (son-in-law of former Air Chief Anwar Shamim);
126. Naval Lt (R) Qasim Raza Mutaqqi, Counsellor, Rome;
127. Col (R) Salik Nawaz, Deputy Chief of Protocol, M/o Foreign Affairs;
128. Capt (R) Masood Akhtar, Deputy Chief of Protocol, M/o Foreign Affairs;
129. Capt (R) Shaukat Muqaddam, Counsellor, Dublin;
130. Capt (R) Zaighamuddin Azam Khan, Counsellor, Berlin;
131. Capt (R) Sohail Ittehad Hussain, Director General,M/o Foreign Affairs;
132. Capt (R) Khalid Durrani, Director, M/o Foreign Affairs.


...more to come...let me search for part II

...t

JUST TO KEEP THINGS IN PERSPETIVE PART II


SA Tribune has got a list of over 100 armed forces men who allotted to themselves at least 400 or more acres of prime land in Bahawalpur, heart of Punjab, ``to defend it from the enemy,`` at the throw away rate of Rs 380 per acre (US Dollars Six & 50 cents). The list is only of one District. Such lists exist all over Punjab and Sindh where a new breed of landlords has already been created through similar allotments.

* General Pervez Musharraf, Current President, Village (Moza) Nouabad Yazman, Bahawalpur;
* General Zubair, Chak DB/14;
* General Moinuddin Haider, Current Interior Minister, DB/43;
* General Aziz, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, BC/16;
* General Iqbal, BC/16;
* General Saroop, BC/17;
* General Javed, DB/61;
* General Irashad Moin;
* General Zarar Niazi, DB/64;
* General Zulifkar Ali (Current Wapda chief) 54/P;
* Lt General Saleem Haider 54/p;
* Lt General Mohammad Akram 94/9;
* Lt. General Mohammad Naeem;
* Lt General Mohammad Afzal Janjua 54/P;
* Lt General Amin Burki( 96/p);
* Lt General Khalid Maqbool (Current Governor Punjab) 54/P;
* Lt General Irshad Hussain;

and

* Brig Iftikar, Chak 46/P
* Brig Shahid Naeem, Chak 46/P
* Brig Ziaullah, IL/119;
* Brig Saddik Khan, 54/P;
* Brig Masoud Bashir; 54/P
* Brig Pervez Akhtar son of Saleem Khan; 54/P
* Colonel Shaukat Hayat, IL/123;
* Colonel Safdar Hussain, 250/P;
* Colonel Mohammed Tariq Khan, 256/P ;
* Colonel Bahadur Nawaz, 256/P
* Lt Colonel Ahmad Yar Khan, 44/46;
* Lt Colonel Abdur Rahim Khan, 93/P;
* Lt Colonel Arshad Pervez Khan, 93/P

more at:

http://www.satribune.com/archives/Aug17_23_02/P1_landgrabbing.htm

__________________________________________________________


DISCLAIMER:

i love the faujis...please do not get me wrong...have stated my position before...just for the record:


http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001483&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

...t

Humsab: I certainly will comment over the weekend.
Sadna: Excellent remarks. Pakistan and Pakistani politics today is absolutely the product of military involvement with ZAB, BB, NS, Jamali, Altaf Hussain, Jehadis, mullahs and the rest are there because of military interference all over the affairs of Pakistan for the last 45 years. The military establishment shares lion share of blame even if BB and NS are considered failed governments. All military has to do is to swear on Quran not to interfere in domestic and foreign affairs for at least 20 years and most of the current crop of leaders would disappear in wilderness. Every party has talented and capable leadres but they are not cut out for agitation, angry, fire-brand speech deliverers, pliant, turncoats, expedients and yes men that are necessary to be on the top in a military dominated atmosphere. I can name Aithzaz Ahsan, Shah Mahmood Qurshi, Javed Hashmi, Ch. Ehsan Iqbal, Khurram Dastgir, Ch. Anwar, Khwaja Asif, Zubeida JAlal, Asghar Khan, Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan, Mahmood Khan Achakzai, Asma Jahangir and many many more but they need a non-military dominated atmosphere to perform and shine above the current crop of leadership. Unfortunately there has always been a Hameed Gul, Javed Ashraf Qazi or Zamir representing and acting on the directives of military establishment, making and breaking a crop of leaders in order to keep their control over all state machinery and policies.
Some people fail to understand the principle of cost effectiveness. Even if, for the sake of discussion, Musharraf is accepted a marginally better administrator than NS or BB, the price to get one person is roughly one-third of the annual budget because except for ``providing`` Musharraf they have failed in every arena they were trained for. BB or NS are not sitting on top of a money eating machine. BB and NS are measured against each other and Musharraf as the ultimate product of 3 billion dollars per year investment. What else have they delivered? Bangladesh, Kashmir, Siachen, education, doctors, engineers, clean drinking water, bridges, roads, industries? Nothing but Musharraf, defense colonies, stifling competition in industries, plots and land grabs for mutually exclusive military elites, Altaf Hussain Nawaz Sharif, Jamali, Jehadis, cheating, fraud and manipulation of elections.
Not that without Musharraf, investment in military will drop but as a matter of principle, board of directors represents investment and output side and not spending guzzler.

Romair:

I have not had a chance to see the link because my company`s web watch software keepls blocking the site.

I will read it from another terminal.

In any case, I remember you yourself said that the problem in Pakistan is the lack of institution building. The politicians that you blame, maybe much worse than Indian politicians, but they are a by product of a system where they had to kowtow to the Army.

The usage of the Army to rule the country only erodes it`s institutions further. In any case, in principle, the nation of Pakistan constituting it`s people, are far superior to the Army. If the people are voting for religious parties, then those parties should come to power. If there is a coalition, then it should be created by the people elected, not a supra-entity that changes rules to suit it`s conveniences. God knows I am no fan of Islamic parties, but right now they seem to be the only principled lot in Pakistan.

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hey romair:

the karachi page link does not work. can you please post the complete article.

Romair:

As far as Bhutto`s story is concerned, I feel like laughing. She was after all the Prime Minister. We had the IT dep`t conduct a raid on the Telecom Minister. They found crores of ruppes in cash behind idols of Hindu Gods in the ``prayer room``.

That man, instead of being sent to jail, switched parties and is currently in the Himachal Pradesh government. Damn right situations like this piss me off...damn right I love to imagine the Army taking over and shooting the dude in the back of the head..but hey, in the real world, democracy is the least of all imperfect systems.

Stuka: I hope you had a chance to read the link I provided for Nawaz Sharif.

Since we are debating who has more corrupt politicians, I am reproducing an article by internationally respected American writer in Canada, Eric Margolis, on BB. He is an expert on South Asia. Can you point me to something similar on Indian politicians:

````Foreign Correspondent
PAKISTAN`S ``PRINCESS`` DETHRONED
by Eric Margolis
January 19, 1998

Benzair Bhutto and her relatives have finally been exposed
as world-class thieves.

Extensive investigations of the former Pakistani prime
minister and her family by Pakistan, international forensic
specialists, and the `New York Times,` concluded Bhuttos and
her in-laws may have stolen a staggering $US 1.5 billion.

Benazir Bhutto, twice prime minister of Pakistan, and the
first female to head a Muslim nation, was idolized by the
western media. She was beautiful and glamorous, gushed
women`s magazines, educated at Harvard. Better yet, Bhutto
openly scorned Islamic tradition, and mocked pious Muslims,
She denounced Islamic fundamentalism, drank in private, and
conducted an open affaire with an American diplomat.

Twice kicked out of office for corruption and incompetence,
Bhutto blamed her dismissal on male jealousy and hatred for
her family. Westerners rallied to Bhutto as a lovely lady
and democrat, relentlessly harassed by brutal, chauvenist
Pakistani generals, notably President Zia ul-Haq.

Benazir inherited the media role previously held by
Egypt`s late strongman, Anwar Sadat: the `good Muslim`
leader, a `moderate` who complied with American wishes, and
was ready to accept Israel. Support from liberals in the US
Congress helped keep Bhutto in power.

To Pakistanis. she showed a different face. The Bhuttos,
are one of Pakistan`s 100 families of enormously powerful,
feudal landowners who pay almost no taxes. They rode to
power on a platform of rabid populism. Benazir`s father,
brilliant, fiery Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, became prime minister
by promising Pakistan`s poor all sorts of curry-in-the-sky.
Zulfikar and daughter Benazir became masters at whipping up
crowds, appealing to the ignorance or greed of desperate
illiterates. Gullible supporters actually believed the
Bhuttos would shower them with cash handouts, free housing,
cheap food and fuel.

Watching the Bhuttos always disgusted me. They lived and
behaved like maharajahs, while pretending to be part of the
people. Ali Bhutto treated even his cabinet ministers like
serfs, and inflicted a reign of sexual terror on the wives
and daughters of his retainers and political supporters.
Benazir and her imperious mother, Nusrat, deported
themselves like Iranian princesses, complete with palaces,
chauffeured Rolls-Royces, and an army of lackeys and
lickspittles.

The world refused to see the real Benazir, or the outrageous
behavior of her new husband, Asif Zardari and his thieving
family. This column was one of the few voices outside
Pakistan trying to expose the Bhutto`s corruption,
hypocrisy, and lies.

In August, 1990, I revealed in the Toronto Sun that Hakim
Ali Zardari, Benazir`s father-in-law had secretly deposited
400 million pounds (US $652 million) in a London bank - in
1990 alone. British authorities suspected the money came
from drug payoffs. Zardari pere had been appointed by
Benazir as head of a commission overseeing all government
contracts for honesty!

My story was widely reported by the Pakistani press. I was
warned acid would be thrown in my face on my next trip to
Pakistan. The Pakistani Embassy accuse me of `vituperation`
and slander.

Now, eight years later, the truth about the Bhuttos/Zardaris
has finally exploded. Investigators have traced US $100
million in secret foreign bank accounts and property to
them. An investigation begin in 1996 suggests the corrupt
first couple obtained a staggering $1.5 billion from
kickbacks and bribes, bled from almost every sector of
Pakistan`s feeble economy.

So far, investigators have linked Benazir`s shady husband,
Asif Zardari, known as `Mr 10%,` to a $200 million bribe
paid by French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault, and millions
more from a Swiss company hired to supervise Pakistani
customs.

A Pakistani gold dealer was discovered to have paid Zardari
$10 million in cash after the government granted him a
monopoly on gold imports into Pakistan. The bribe money went
into one of Zardari`s secret, overseas accounts, that
stretch from Abu Dhabi to the British Virgin Islands.

As I reported last fall, Swiss banks froze 17 secret
Bhutto/Zardari accounts worth millions, after suspicions
that part of the funds may have come from drugs. Pakistan
and neighboring Afghanistan are the world`s largest
producers and exporters of heroin.

Last summer, financial detectives Kroll Associates, managed
to buy, for $1 million cash, documents stolen from the
Geneva office of the Bhutto`s long-time lawyer and manager
of their secret accounts, . This information provided
evidence of $100 million in kickbacks, bribes, and outright
theft from land, aircraft, rice, petroleum and arms deals.
Investigators call it the tip of the iceberg. After all,
Benazir Bhutto was Finance Minister as well as Prime
Minister. Husband Ali Baba Zardari was Pakistan`s
Investment Minister. His hands were in every pocket.

What makes the massive thievery of the Bhuttos and Zardaris
so uniquely disgusting is that Pakistan is one of the
world`s poorer nations. Some 70% of its 132 million people
are illiterate. At least a third lack adequate housing,
food or medical care.

While robbing Pakistan blind, the Bhuttos lived like the
royalty they believed themselves to be, bought huge estates
abroad, bribed US congressmen, and proclaimed themselves
patriots, democrats, and champions of the `little people.`
With imperial disdain for common decency or public opinion,
the Bhuttos moved in 1996 into a new $55 million mansion in
Islambad, with a lovely view of their impoverished nation.


The Bhuttos covered up and then suppressed investigation of
the murder of Pakistan`s former ruler, President Zia ul-Haq,
a man of outstanding honesty, in which they may have had a
hand, perhaps with American collusion. While stealing food
from the mouths of children, the Bhuttos denounced Islamic
movements that demanded social reform, and an end to
corruption, as `dangerous Muslim extremists,` ..

This writer knows of no greater hypocrites anywhere than the
Bhuttos. They have been a scourge to Pakistan for three
decades. Bhutto`s economic mismanagement alone saddled
Pakistan with ruinous debts that now consume 70% of
government spending. She and her family first plundered
Pakistan, then hocked it to its ears. .

In 1996 Benazir declared $42,200 in income, and paid $5,110
in tax. Hubby Zardari declared income of a mere $13,100. The
word `shame` was not in their vocabulary.

Asif Zardari is now in prison, charged with complicity in
the murder of Benazir`s brother, Murtaza, who tried to wrest
the Bhutto political movement away from her. Younger
brother, Shahnawaz was poisoned on the Riviera in 1985,
reportedly because of disputes with his family over access
to secret funds stolen by papa, Zulfikar Bhutto, and stashed
in Switzerland..


Bhutto lamely claims she`s been framed by political enemies.
Supporters claim she didn`t know what the Zardaris were
doing. Only if she were a deaf, dumb, and blind.

The Bhuttos, Zardaris and other feudalists have turned
Pakistan. which was created as a beacon of morality for the
world`s Muslims, into a cesspool. .

I feel not a whit of sympathy for Benazir. Like the late,
loathsome Shah of Iran, and his thieving relatives, Benazir
hated and was embarrassed by her own country. She despised
her people as backward primitives, and scorned their Islamic
faith. Like the Shah, she wished her country was located in
the Swiss Alps, not Asia, and longed to be European. . Like
Sadat, she played and pandered to the credulous western
media.

Bhutto probably planned to move one day to Paris, become an
international celebrity, and live in imperial style on the
vast fortune she and her family had stolen from the very
people they claimed to champion.

As far as I`m concerned, a jail cell shared with her husband
and father-in-law, not Paris, is what `Princess` Benazir
deserves.

Copyright E. Margolis, January 1998``

re ROmair #37:

Dude, it will not be your dead body the Pakistani public will stomp over when they finally throw out the occupying army because you were lucky to get out. Your compatriots in arms will not be as lucky as they were in East Pakistan. Get ready to welcome loads of your comrades in your Fremont home when the grim reaper strikes. You can then invite Bilal Musharraf to preside over that government in waiting.

later
-sac

#37 by Romair
//..
Indian parties believe in democracy within their own parties...Is there a concept of Chairperson for Life in the Congress or BJP, like there is in the PPP? ...
//

Chairperson for Life: officially no - but effectively, the ``Gandhi`` family ``owns`` Congress party. And a number other influential regional parties like TDP, Trinamul Congress, AIADMK are basically one person shows - there is no internal democracy in these parties.

But you have a point here - Indian politicians, at least some of them, do seem to fare better than their pakistani counterparts. If this is true then that`s because Indian political system have evolved much better than that in pakistan.

Now why do you think political system didn`t evolve well in Pakistan? We all know the answer - it is because of the Army. BB, NS etc are as evil as they are because they are product of a very skewed, inbred and violent political culture created by a military state dominated by egoistic,quixotic generals.

You can blame BB, NS etc. all you want - but they are just the symptoms, not the cause. They are like thorny little cacti that have spawn on the dry,barren political landscape very deliberately created by the Army. And only things that will ever spawn in such land is more of the same cactus, nothing else. You want political behemoths to grow in there then you have got to reshape the landscape and pump some juice into the land and more importantly - weed out the well-entrenched parasites, otherwise knows as Pakistan Armed Forces.

If Musharraf is better than BB, NS - only time will tell. But consider this: If NS was so bad then pakistan could have just waited two more years and vote him out. Then Imran Khan ( or some other ``good`` politician ) would have got a chance to launch a major campaign on how corrupt both BB, NS are and would have a much better chance of getting to power, at least as a major coalition partner. And if Imran Khan is such an angel as you claim - then that would have changed pakistan`s political landscape for better. At the least, pakistani people would have retained their right to shape and size their politics and there-by evolving a better political culture.

But instead, as it turned out - you guys started cheerleading the same upsurpers who are root cause of the problems in the first place and continue to do so till date.

ROmair #37
The arguments you make against politicians may have worked 50 years ago when Ayub Khan took over. These days, everyone, just everyone knows how the Army has screwed around with Pakistan since then.

If it hadn`t been for Ayub Khan and co, you would have a functioning Parliament and Constitution instead of grand detours through One Unit and Basic Democrats and doctrines of necessity. If it hadn`t been for Yahya Khan, ZABhutto wouldnot be PM of Pakistan. If it hadn`t been for Zia Ul Haq, ZAB wouldn`t be a martyr and his daughter wouldn`t been a heroine for life . If it hadn`t been for Zia Ul Haq, Nawaz Sharif wouldn`t have risen above Sugar minister or Chief Minister of Punjab.

The present elected members and elected government know just like all past politicians that they are unlikely to finish their term in Parliament, and that their standing for election(if elections are held again) again is uncertain, because all these things affecting their future careers are going to be decided by the Army, not by any longstanding public agenda of their parties or any competence in governance while showing independence from the Army. And only Army bootlickers are allowed to take office, what sort of selection criteria is that?

As I said, everyone knows, even the Indians.

As if murdering Muslims in NWFP was not enough, this despot has started using state machinery to crush people of Paksitan in Karachi as well. At least one person is already dead in the state coerced violence that is happening between two MQM factions. Shame on altaaf hussain as well, for he has set a price again for mohajir blood just to get his people into the government which does not seem to last for more than two months. Lets not pretend here for just one second that after this election Paksitan is not under Martial Law. As long as generals are running this country from ghq, the country is under martial law. The word LFO does not sanctify the word martial law. I dont care if 178 syasi haramzaday tell me otherwise.

SameerJB ji

Your valuable comments are solicited on an article written by Mr. Ishtiaq Ahmed on Pakistan Movement. This Article is there in latest edition of The Friday Times.

Thanks in anticipation.

I second Ali1. The best thing happened to Pakistan yet, is this `Democrat` general. Now the democracy engine is starting to move again, let`s help it to full steam.

The need of the hour is stability and economic growth, in which the general is doing a better job. If he can successfully launch an era where democracy can`t be hindered frequently, and cycle of 5 yrs election are continue un-interupted. Then, and then we will see the real progress. When I said he can I really mean he can, becuase the army has the will and the power.

stuka #20: ``Ya gotta be kidding me...I know u made that statement in jest, but hell BB and Nawaz were not that bad...they were corrupt...so what..every politician is corrupt...our politicians are way more corrupt than yours..but we still gotta stick with democracy.. ``

Please visit http://www.karachipage.com/nawazsharif/nawaz.html

One must give credit where its due.

Just like Pakistanis are better looking than Indians, similarly Indian politicians (though Indians may find it hard to believe) are quite a bit better lot than Pakistani politicians. Indian Generals are also a better lot than Pakistani Generals (I am only talking about the Army here, PAF and Navy could be a different story).

I don`t think you realize the level of corruption in Pakistani politics in comparison with Indian politics - both financial and moral. I followed the tehelka exposed arms scandal in India quite closely. I couldn`t help laughing when I heard the meagre amounts of money involved. In Pakistan, the amounts would have been many times that. If you ever get a chance, try to get rep