Teasing or Torture?

urstruly #72 The blithe manner in which you treat such important issues (women in Pakistan are being raped every day and fear to tell anyone given the animals in the police force, mosques, etc.) leads me to conclude that you are not as serious about religious matters as you claim. You just pick on the ``I think`` part as if it negates in any way clear conclusion of the travesty of justice and of Islam that is the Hadood Ordinance shows me you are not capable of the open mind you promised to maintain your earlier post which led me to waste my time trying to explain this to you. If you have any doubts about this reference to the Quran, I suggest you go read that book carefully since you are obviously quite ignorant of the religion you swear by on every third post on chowk.
On the remaining question of why your mind is closed on these matters, I think my response to dost-mittar provides a good indication (i.e. the different paradigms in the Quranic teachings vs. Mullah teachings.

tahmad

``consider this: the Quran says (it is the fourth sura i think) ....``

Reply:

You think? You have to do better than that dude. If this is the way you are gonna argue then my reply is ``I think it does not apply``

soundmeister

Thanks for setting up the context. I will keep that in mind. I am a little tied up which prevents me from writing lengthy posts. But I will see over the weekend. No promises.

urstruly #68 fair enough. consider this: the Quran says (it is the fourth sura i think) that if a couple are found fornicating, punish them UNLESS they repent. In that case, the Quran says, LET THEM GO IN PEACE.
The Hadood Ordinance, by contrast, does not carry over this very important instruction from the Quran - it makes lashings etc. a requirement EVEN IF the couple expresses repentence.
This about the implications. The difference between the Quran and the Hadood Ordinance are night and day on this point.
And this is consistent with the other differences between the Quran and Islamic law as understood in the Quran - the Quran repeatedly calls for mercy and compassion and forgiveness. Sahriah law, the creation of evil men and implemented by blind followers of other men, makes no such provision and is rightly considered synonymous with cruelty.
Also note that STONING to death is NOWHERE prescribed in the Quran. It crept into shariah laws from ancient jewish traditions - and has long been discarded even by the jews. But muslim fundamentalists find it in harmony with their cruel natures, and keep this brutal custom alive in the name of God. God will have something to say to them on this issue too, I am sure, at an opportune time.

Urstruly#66:
Sounds good. Just setting the context, some definitions from Merriam-Webster---

1. Main Entry: fornication
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other -- compare ADULTERY

2. Main Entry: adultery
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of avoutrie, from Middle French, from Latin adulterium, from adulter adulterer, back-formation from adulterare
Date: 15th century
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery

3. Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception -- compare STATUTORY RAPE b : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman
3 : an outrageous violation

4. Main Entry: statutory rape
Function: noun
Date: 1898
: sexual intercourse with a person who is below the statutory age of consent

My stand:
In favour of 1.
Qualified support (case-by-case) for 2. Hubby may be impotent, wifey may be frigid, divorce not an option.
Strongly against 3. This includes sex with animals and others incapable of giving consent.
Against 4. Frankly it`s illegal. But certain borderline cases might exist where it`s justified.... e.g. when both partners are teenagers, when the partners are in love and one is marginally underage etc.

Ball`s in Urs court...

tahmad32


``The punishments for fornication that you mention from the Hadood Ordinance are in violation of the Quran``

Please support your claim with evidence that you have; by doing that you can save the ``aakhirat`` of billions. I am open to your point of view. On the other hand I can support my claim with evidence; are you open to my point of view?

Soundmeister # 64

Good questions. Why fornication is forbidden or should be, in any society. This question needs a detailed answer. I intend to write an answer which is not based on any religious or non-religious moral values. I intend to prove that fornication is ``anti-human``. Unfortunately my hands are tied at the moment - if I dont get back to you we will talk about it in near future

Urstruly: The punishments for fornication that you mention from the Hadood Ordinance are in violation of the Quran, not consistent with it. AND the Quran says you, as an individual, will be held responsible for using your God-given faculties, including your ability to think for yourself. By simply accepting what an evil man (Zia) introduced in this country for his personal benefit (blasphemy laws, hadood ordinance, which are a travesty of Islam and a travesty of good sense), you are opening yourself up to some SERIOUS cross-examination on the Judgement Day. If you really believe in it, i.e., as I assume you do.

urstruly #61
Thanks for a succinctly informative post.

dost-mittar:
When I said ``In India at least...``, I meant in context of our favourite India-v-Pak theme. Of course there is no comparison in the way a rape victim here is treated with, say America (and it`s bad enough I suppose there too, though perhaps not so obvious).
The point is that there has to be a start somewhere and these kinds of small steps will only help. The question is- and I`m baiting Urstruly again here- what has Pakistan done? How can any civilised country declare ``fornication`` a crime? The only factor to be considered must be if there was consent. If not, it`s rape. Is that so difficult to understand?
Personally, I can`t see how anybody can defend their religion for this idiotic stand and still live in the contemporary era. Even if ``fornication`` IS frowned upon by your holy books, can`t some amount of rationality prevail when making the laws of the land?
And---forgive me, this is just getting more and more interesting-- what about other ridiculous concepts like alcohol being haraam and interest ditto? Are you seriously telling me there are no single malts and fixed deposits in Pakistan?
We hindoos may be horrible but we sure as hell let our heads rule our hearts when making our laws.
SM

Urstruly #61:
Thanks for the clarification. I agree SH is notoriously difficult to prove even in the most ``liberal`` of climates, not to mention rape convictions are only slightly easier to get.
In India at least there seems to be some sort of effort to increase the sensitivity of the authorities to the trauma of a rape victim. All-women police stations for one. Plus I read an article yesterday on how the police are being trained to be more sensitive in their questioning of victims.
Of course as long as the stigma of being raped exists, there will always be leering idiots who say ``She asked for it``...
We have a long way to go, in both our countries. Trust me- this is not propoganda, just concern....
Cheers
SM

Soundmeister

Either you are too assumptive or do not care to separate propaganda from truth (or you might yourself be an instrument of propaganda).

In Paksitan 4 male witnesses are required to prove the case for fornication, since extramarital sex is a cognizable offense. That is based on Islamic standard of witness to issue the hadd punishment. The Hudd punishments are those which are prescribed by Almighty Himself. For a married fornicator the hudd punishment is death by stonning and for unmarried fornicator the hudd is flogging with 100 lashes. If the standard of witness, which is four adult males of good characters is not fulfilled the hadd punishment is not applicable; but it does not mean that the offender (s) will go scott free. If standard of witness is not met then the punishment imparted is a Ta`azeer, which is a punishment decided by society - could be any thing from simple fine to imprisonment and flogging with maximum of 10 lashes. In case of Pakistan it is a any combination of the three.

Rape is a different story. Rape does not come under Hudood laws, which means that the standard of witness (4 adult male witnesses) is not applicable in this case. Unfortunately, worldwide rape is such a crime for which the onus of proof is always on victim. And it is not just in Paksitan but all over the world. According to Islamic law a rape victim does not have to produce 4 male witnesses to prove her case. So in this case, since hudd cannot be imposed the cases are prosecuted on the basis of circumstancial or medical evidence, or witnesses account and Ta`azir is applied which is punishment that society suggests. In case of Paksitan it is imprisonment of 7-14 years with hard labor, 10 floggings, and fine upto a million rupees.

In the recent past there was, however, a confusion regarding the rape cases where the victim was asked to produce 4 witnesses to prove her allegation as to she was raped. Since it is also a Hudd crime to slander and accuse someone with fornication (Qaz`f) without proof, there was a legal blackhole where in the law the differnce between rape and fornication was not clearly defined. But that loophole was voided by Federal Shariat Court in its decision in a rape case last year and therefore now rape victims do not have to produce 4 witness to prove their allegation.

Sexual Harassment is neither fornication nor rape, if actual sex did not happen. In this case Hudd is not applicable. SH is always very difficult to prove worldwide. The cases are usually decided on witnesses accounts or evidence such as a letter written by alleged offender etc. The allegation of victim is not enough around the world. And since SH is not fornication or rape by definition, the Islamic law of slander (Qaz`f) also does not apply.

I hope that helps.

With absolutely no intention to hijack your article, Bina- it`s well written as usual, and this one has genuine angst to back it up-- is it true that Pakistani courts will only convict a rapist if there are 4 male witnesses? I mean, what if there is physical evidence proving the crime?
If that`s the case, I shudder to think how cases of sexual harassment can EVER be proved....

#53 by Bina:

no doubt very well written and the poblm u mentioned is genuine,,,,for soloution u said

{As to my ideas of how to solve this problem, I support the manner the UAE authorities have tackled it. Once in Dubai my sister told me that two Asian women were walking down the street and an Arab in a car was following them and harassing them verbally. One of the women whipped out a mobile phone, called the police, and within minutes the roadside Romeo was on his way to jail. A stiff fine should finish the deal nicely.}

i think we r missing the ground realities here, pakistani society is not compatible to UAE in most of the aspects . Yesterday a seventeen year old gil in Hyderabad killed by electric shock coz of Karo Kari tradition....it was unfortunate that she didnt have the mobile phone to call someone for help....and do you think our police is much efficient now to do something............for some matters we are far behind then African Zolo tribe which is we consider as uncivilised.
Today an educated gil murdered her parents living in posh area like Defence coz parents made her to get divorced. If parents are that much involve in EVE teasing that gil killed them then what we can expect from other ppl. We have to remember Pakistan is a country with only 15% of literacy rate, we can not compare it with the other countries.

UAE and pakistan , economy, systems, awareness of rights, education,and above all every body has mobile phone.......nothing is near to each other....i dont see any comparison or adopting their methods.

Saminasha #57 DNA testing is indeed shaking the assumption that all those behind bars (not to mention those who have been executed) actually committed the crime. In the US, at least one state (Indiana I think) has put a halt to all executions after DNA evidence exonerated at least 15-20 condemned prisoners. And all this in a country where the justice system is driven by hard evidence and due process to a greater extent than virtually any other country in the world.
In Pakistan, the abuse of the justice system is rampant, from all indications. Professional witnesses are a dime a dozen. Truth is so often hidden behind power and influence, that it is not unreasonable to say that there is only punishable thing you can do in Pakistan: be without influence.

I think so one should exclude mild cases of eve seeing from the definition of eve teasing especially if man and woman involved happen to be single. I mean if one stops altogether this seeing in case of all singles, life would dull for both men as well as women.

Excluding ``mild eve seeing in singles`` cases may create problems for arresting officers. How will they determine marital status or whether it was mild enough eve seeing case or was it leering case?

Men are often victim when booked in ``seeing`` cases because they have to put off their marriages and start earning before tying knot. Under the circumstances they have no option but to keep ``seeing`` girls until they are officially allowed to see the girl who would be theirs officially. More and more men and women marry late.

I think so leering becomes problem when more than one man are involved. The fear here factor. In USA construction site workers indulge in it often accompanied by uttering sexual innuendoes. One veteran construction site worker who was also a veteran eve teaser said it quickens up the walk of women and makes them look even more beautiful.

I do not know how frequently such experiences become something more than just leering and innuendo, but important element in these seems to be composure of women and rebuff which women are supposed to show. Composure shows that they are untouched by the experience and are not afraid. And rebuff says to guys to bugger off.

I like Ashok`s idea of desensitizing by controlled meeting of both sexes. In India there are Hindu festivals when women stay awake whole night and fast. There is one Gujarati festival in which a sister fasts until full moon shows up in sky at which sister seeks permission to either eat or play. If brother says play then sister have no option but to fast and play. Full moon day after Diwali is also a festival amongst Gujaratis.

Some of these can easily be pressed into service for doing double duty of bringing sexes together. In these get togethers there can be a lot of working together like cooking together, singing together etc. Recalling my childhood days as a Gujarati sometimes we boys and girls were included in all these but bringing us really together was still taboo. I think so in India (and I am sure also in Pakistan) lot of good quality opportunies of bringing young people together are criminally wasted.

I am sure men on this thread will agree that I am committing no blasphemy writing all these.

-ew

Tahmed,

There is such a shroud around the prison industrial system that one could argue that the envisoners of imprisonment have acheived an institutionalised torture system. You`ve heard the usual charges against the current prison system; that it is funded better than schools, that its filled with predominantly men of color, that the inmates are the perpetrators of blue collar crime/rape/murder/assault, that the free labor the inmates provide makes this system attractive to its proponents, that a prison provides jobs for the town it resides in. The lives of the inmates are the last thing that seems to be on mainstream`s mind.
A few thoughts come to mind: that DNA testing has exonerated many men who were incarcerated -even the Central Park Jogger`s ``wilding`` rape case is being re-examined-this case was exposed about a year ago in the alternative press and I predict much more guano is going to hit the fan soon; the cases of Muslim men who have been wrongfully imprisoned post 9/11 are getting released and so that should raise some issues about psychological torture (its being reported that prisoners were fed pork 3 times a day), etc. The story of the 20 year old being raped is a shameful one, an unjust criminal act against a minor offender-you`ve got to wonder what is going on at these places. I`ll bet its a lot worse than we suspect.
I was reading something about a former Cabinet member`s new book on Animal Rights (which I support, btw) and the litmus test for how humans INNATELY are aware of brutality taking place: if you have to avert your eyes, you are in the presence of evil...