Teasing or Torture?

Wow, I am so surprised that ``eve-teasing`` exists in Pakistan. I thought it was a word coined in India, and was an inherently Indian problem. I guess the subcontinent is more similar than we think.

I visited India when I was fourteen years old, and trust me it was the first time I ever experienced sexual harassment. It was really, really bizarre, and I did not know how to react. My little cousin and I were strolling by the beach totally immersed in a conversation when we heart rude calls and invitations. Trying to make the situation better, I politely interceded (which was stupid, I should have simply ignored them) ``Wow the people in this town are so friendly.`` Unfortunately, the guy could not understand my accent, and I had to repeat what I said like 3 times. I think his ego was hurt that he could not understand my English (which in India is an insult I don`t know why). Then when he finally understood, he came up to me so that there was an inch left between us and angrily replied ``Yeah? I`ll show you what friendly is...`` He was checked by his friends, while I was dragged away by my LITTLE cousin and was rendered speechless.

I think if a guy wants to sexually harass a girl, he should atleast try one his own age. The guy was like 20 and I was 14. I am also a very small person, and have always been told I look much younger than I am. So I must have appeared to be 12 to him! What was he thinking, trying to sexually corner a 12 year old! Nothing short of child molestation.

The Hudood Ordinance boggles the mind.
It fails to differentiate between zina (adultery) and zina-bil-Jabr (rape). Four male witnesses are required to prove adultery or rape. (What if rape is committed in front of a hundred women???) Pregnancy, any similar physical evidence is taken as proof that the WOMAN was an adulterer; the only way she can prove her innocence is by PROVING that she was raped, and for this the law requires 4 witnesses who have ``actually seen the act being committed`` and who will testify that the woman did not consent. The onus of proof lies on the victim. She must prove her innocence. The woman is the loser in either case, it is easier for the man to go free. The consequence, of course, is that it discourages women to bring cases of rape against their rapist and it encourages men to rape women.

I cant understand the people of this country. There are times when I am proud to be Pakistani and this isnt one of those times. Nobody seems to respect women in this country. They are treated as objects of lust. The day women are respected in this part of the world is a day when hell freezes over.

A thoght-provoking effort!

Frend-frand #71:
Who said I included America in the list of ``civilised`` countries? :))
BTW, an aside but an important one- apparently georgie W. and his cohorts are so sick of every second American marriage headed down the drain they`re gonna include marriage training in the syllabus and spend millions of dollars trying to keep families together! (todays` ToI)
If only they knew the secret that Indian/Paki families have long known--- when you don`t have a choice, it`s the best choice!!

Tahmed & urstruly. #67,#68,#72,#75.

4:2 says at the end: ``And if when they are honourably married and they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of punishment prescribed for free women``.

24:2 prescribes the punishment for adultery..````The adulterer and the adulturess,scourge ye each one of them with a hundred stripes``.

I hope this helps.

Looking at the m-w.com definition, a clarification. A while ago when making a point on the prevalence of profanities like f_k I used the word fornication but I meant plain old sex (which was perhaps the original sin in Christianity and the reason Adam and Eve were banished from Eden?)

dost mittar #73 That is my point!! The Quran is fundamentally directed towards the individuals, his intentions and his deeds. It is not a Code Napoleon or a Constitutional Paper. This is a different paradigm altogether from the one that the ``religious types`` among muslims live in. Thus, the Quran emphasizes kindness, forgiveness, mercy. Since these are the attributes of a good human. The only place where it permits violence is in Self-Defense. This is no different than saying that your freedom of action ends where my nose begins. This does not mean that I stick my nose into people`s personal lives (which is what fornication is all about) and call for cruel punishments that are a travesty of common sense, basic decency and Islam.

urstruly #72 The blithe manner in which you treat such important issues (women in Pakistan are being raped every day and fear to tell anyone given the animals in the police force, mosques, etc.) leads me to conclude that you are not as serious about religious matters as you claim. You just pick on the ``I think`` part as if it negates in any way clear conclusion of the travesty of justice and of Islam that is the Hadood Ordinance shows me you are not capable of the open mind you promised to maintain your earlier post which led me to waste my time trying to explain this to you. If you have any doubts about this reference to the Quran, I suggest you go read that book carefully since you are obviously quite ignorant of the religion you swear by on every third post on chowk.
On the remaining question of why your mind is closed on these matters, I think my response to dost-mittar provides a good indication (i.e. the different paradigms in the Quranic teachings vs. Mullah teachings.

tahmad

``consider this: the Quran says (it is the fourth sura i think) ....``

Reply:

You think? You have to do better than that dude. If this is the way you are gonna argue then my reply is ``I think it does not apply``

soundmeister

Thanks for setting up the context. I will keep that in mind. I am a little tied up which prevents me from writing lengthy posts. But I will see over the weekend. No promises.

urstruly #68 fair enough. consider this: the Quran says (it is the fourth sura i think) that if a couple are found fornicating, punish them UNLESS they repent. In that case, the Quran says, LET THEM GO IN PEACE.
The Hadood Ordinance, by contrast, does not carry over this very important instruction from the Quran - it makes lashings etc. a requirement EVEN IF the couple expresses repentence.
This about the implications. The difference between the Quran and the Hadood Ordinance are night and day on this point.
And this is consistent with the other differences between the Quran and Islamic law as understood in the Quran - the Quran repeatedly calls for mercy and compassion and forgiveness. Sahriah law, the creation of evil men and implemented by blind followers of other men, makes no such provision and is rightly considered synonymous with cruelty.
Also note that STONING to death is NOWHERE prescribed in the Quran. It crept into shariah laws from ancient jewish traditions - and has long been discarded even by the jews. But muslim fundamentalists find it in harmony with their cruel natures, and keep this brutal custom alive in the name of God. God will have something to say to them on this issue too, I am sure, at an opportune time.

Urstruly#66:
Sounds good. Just setting the context, some definitions from Merriam-Webster---

1. Main Entry: fornication
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other -- compare ADULTERY

2. Main Entry: adultery
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of avoutrie, from Middle French, from Latin adulterium, from adulter adulterer, back-formation from adulterare
Date: 15th century
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery

3. Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception -- compare STATUTORY RAPE b : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman
3 : an outrageous violation

4. Main Entry: statutory rape
Function: noun
Date: 1898
: sexual intercourse with a person who is below the statutory age of consent

My stand:
In favour of 1.
Qualified support (case-by-case) for 2. Hubby may be impotent, wifey may be frigid, divorce not an option.
Strongly against 3. This includes sex with animals and others incapable of giving consent.
Against 4. Frankly it`s illegal. But certain borderline cases might exist where it`s justified.... e.g. when both partners are teenagers, when the partners are in love and one is marginally underage etc.

Ball`s in Urs court...

tahmad32


``The punishments for fornication that you mention from the Hadood Ordinance are in violation of the Quran``

Please support your claim with evidence that you have; by doing that you can save the ``aakhirat`` of billions. I am open to your point of view. On the other hand I can support my claim with evidence; are you open to my point of view?

Soundmeister # 64

Good questions. Why fornication is forbidden or should be, in any society. This question needs a detailed answer. I intend to write an answer which is not based on any religious or non-religious moral values. I intend to prove that fornication is ``anti-human``. Unfortunately my hands are tied at the moment - if I dont get back to you we will talk about it in near future

Urstruly: The punishments for fornication that you mention from the Hadood Ordinance are in violation of the Quran, not consistent with it. AND the Quran says you, as an individual, will be held responsible for using your God-given faculties, including your ability to think for yourself. By simply accepting what an evil man (Zia) introduced in this country for his personal benefit (blasphemy laws, hadood ordinance, which are a travesty of Islam and a travesty of good sense), you are opening yourself up to some SERIOUS cross-examination on the Judgement Day. If you really believe in it, i.e., as I assume you do.

urstruly #61
Thanks for a succinctly informative post.

dost-mittar:
When I said ``In India at least...``, I meant in context of our favourite India-v-Pak theme. Of course there is no comparison in the way a rape victim here is treated with, say America (and it`s bad enough I suppose there too, though perhaps not so obvious).
The point is that there has to be a start somewhere and these kinds of small steps will only help. The question is- and I`m baiting Urstruly again here- what has Pakistan done? How can any civilised country declare ``fornication`` a crime? The only factor to be considered must be if there was consent. If not, it`s rape. Is that so difficult to understand?
Personally, I can`t see how anybody can defend their religion for this idiotic stand and still live in the contemporary era. Even if ``fornication`` IS frowned upon by your holy books, can`t some amount of rationality prevail when making the laws of the land?
And---forgive me, this is just getting more and more interesting-- what about other ridiculous concepts like alcohol being haraam and interest ditto? Are you seriously telling me there are no single malts and fixed deposits in Pakistan?
We hindoos may be horrible but we sure as hell let our heads rule our hearts when making our laws.
SM

Urstruly #61:
Thanks for the clarification. I agree SH is notoriously difficult to prove even in the most ``liberal`` of climates, not to mention rape convictions are only slightly easier to get.
In India at least there seems to be some sort of effort to increase the sensitivity of the authorities to the trauma of a rape victim. All-women police stations for one. Plus I read an article yesterday on how the police are being trained to be more sensitive in their questioning of victims.
Of course as long as the stigma of being raped exists, there will always be leering idiots who say ``She asked for it``...
We have a long way to go, in both our countries. Trust me- this is not propoganda, just concern....
Cheers
SM

Soundmeister

Either you are too assumptive or do not care to separate propaganda from truth (or you might yourself be an instrument of propaganda).

In Paksitan 4 male witnesses are required to prove the case for fornication, since extramarital sex is a cognizable offense. That is based on Islamic standard of witness to issue the hadd punishment. The Hudd punishments are those which are prescribed by Almighty Himself. For a married fornicator the hudd punishment is death by stonning and for unmarried fornicator the hudd is flogging with 100 lashes. If the standard of witness, which is four adult males of good characters is not fulfilled the hadd punishment is not applicable; but it does not mean that the offender (s) will go scott free. If standard of witness is not met then the punishment imparted is a Ta`azeer, which is a punishment decided by society - could be any thing from simple fine to imprisonment and flogging with maximum of 10 lashes. In case of Pakistan it is a any combination of the three.

Rape is a different story. Rape does not come under Hudood laws, which means that the standard of witness (4 adult male witnesses) is not applicable in this case. Unfortunately, worldwide rape is such a crime for which the onus of proof is always on victim. And it is not just in Paksitan but all over the world. According to Islamic law a rape victim does not have to produce 4 male witnesses to prove her case. So in this case, since hudd cannot be imposed the cases are prosecuted on the basis of circumstancial or medical evidence, or witnesses account and Ta`azir is applied which is punishment that society suggests. In case of Paksitan it is imprisonment of 7-14 years with hard labor, 10 floggings, and fine upto a million rupees.

In the recent past there was, however, a confusion regarding the rape cases where the victim was asked to produce 4 witnesses to prove her allegation as to she was raped. Since it is also a Hudd crime to slander and accuse someone with fornication (Qaz`f) without proof, there was a legal blackhole where in the law the differnce between rape and fornication was not clearly defined. But that loophole was voided by Federal Shariat Court in its decision in a rape case last year and therefore now rape victims do not have to produce 4 witness to prove their allegation.

Sexual Harassment is neither fornication nor rape, if actual sex did not happen. In this case Hudd is not applicable. SH is always very difficult to prove worldwide. The cases are usually decided on witnesses accounts or evidence such as a letter written by alleged offender etc. The allegation of victim is not enough around the world. And since SH is not fornication or rape by definition, the Islamic law of slander (Qaz`f) also does not apply.

I hope that helps.

With absolutely no intention to hijack your article, Bina- it`s well written as usual, and this one has genuine angst to back it up-- is it true that Pakistani courts will only convict a rapist if there are 4 male witnesses? I mean, what if there is physical evidence proving the crime?
If that`s the case, I shudder to think how cases of sexual harassment can EVER be proved....

#53 by Bina:

no doubt very well written and the poblm u mentioned is genuine,,,,for soloution u said

{As to my ideas of how to solve this problem, I support the manner the UAE authorities have tackled it. Once in Dubai my sister told me that two Asian women were walking down the street and an Arab in a car was following them and harassing them verbally. One of the women whipped out a mobile phone, called the police, and within minutes the roadside Romeo was on his way to jail. A stiff fine should finish the deal nicely.}

i think we r missing the ground realities here, pakistani society is not compatible to UAE in most of the aspects . Yesterday a seventeen year old gil in Hyderabad killed by electric shock coz of Karo Kari tradition....it was unfortunate that she didnt have the mobile phone to call someone for help....and do you think our police is much efficient now to do something............for some matters we are far behind then African Zolo tribe which is we consider as uncivilised.
Today an educated gil murdered her parents living in posh area like Defence coz parents made her to get divorced. If parents are that much involve in EVE teasing that gil killed them then what we can expect from other ppl. We have to remember Pakistan is a country with only 15% of literacy rate, we can not compare it with the other countries.

UAE and pakistan , economy, systems, awareness of rights, education,and above all every body has mobile phone.......nothing is near to each other....i dont see any comparison or adopting their methods.

Saminasha #57 DNA testing is indeed shaking the assumption that all those behind bars (not to mention those who have been executed) actually committed the crime. In the US, at least one state (Indiana I think) has put a halt to all executions after DNA evidence exonerated at least 15-20 condemned prisoners. And all this in a country where the justice system is driven by hard evidence and due process to a greater extent than virtually any other country in the world.
In Pakistan, the abuse of the justice system is rampant, from all indications. Professional witnesses are a dime a dozen. Truth is so often hidden behind power and influence, that it is not unreasonable to say that there is only punishable thing you can do in Pakistan: be without influence.

I think so one should exclude mild cases of eve seeing from the definition of eve teasing especially if man and woman involved happen to be single. I mean if one stops altogether this seeing in case of all singles, life would dull for both men as well as women.

Excluding ``mild eve seeing in singles`` cases may create problems for arresting officers. How will they determine marital status or whether it was mild enough eve seeing case or was it leering case?

Men are often victim when booked in ``seeing`` cases because they have to put off their marriages and start earning before tying knot. Under the circumstances they have no option but to keep ``seeing`` girls until they are officially allowed to see the girl who would be theirs officially. More and more men and women marry late.

I think so leering becomes problem when more than one man are involved. The fear here factor. In USA construction site workers indulge in it often accompanied by uttering sexual innuendoes. One veteran construction site worker who was also a veteran eve teaser said it quickens up the walk of women and makes them look even more beautiful.

I do not know how frequently such experiences become something more than just leering and innuendo, but important element in these seems to be composure of women and rebuff which women are supposed to show. Composure shows that they are untouched by the experience and are not afraid. And rebuff says to guys to bugger off.

I like Ashok`s idea of desensitizing by controlled meeting of both sexes. In India there are Hindu festivals when women stay awake whole night and fast. There is one Gujarati festival in which a sister fasts until full moon shows up in sky at which sister seeks permission to either eat or play. If brother says play then sister have no option but to fast and play. Full moon day after Diwali is also a festival amongst Gujaratis.

Some of these can easily be pressed into service for doing double duty of bringing sexes together. In these get togethers there can be a lot of working together like cooking together, singing together etc. Recalling my childhood days as a Gujarati sometimes we boys and girls were included in all these but bringing us really together was still taboo. I think so in India (and I am sure also in Pakistan) lot of good quality opportunies of bringing young people together are criminally wasted.

I am sure men on this thread will agree that I am committing no blasphemy writing all these.

-ew

Tahmed,

There is such a shroud around the prison industrial system that one could argue that the envisoners of imprisonment have acheived an institutionalised torture system. You`ve heard the usual charges against the current prison system; that it is funded better than schools, that its filled with predominantly men of color, that the inmates are the perpetrators of blue collar crime/rape/murder/assault, that the free labor the inmates provide makes this system attractive to its proponents, that a prison provides jobs for the town it resides in. The lives of the inmates are the last thing that seems to be on mainstream`s mind.
A few thoughts come to mind: that DNA testing has exonerated many men who were incarcerated -even the Central Park Jogger`s ``wilding`` rape case is being re-examined-this case was exposed about a year ago in the alternative press and I predict much more guano is going to hit the fan soon; the cases of Muslim men who have been wrongfully imprisoned post 9/11 are getting released and so that should raise some issues about psychological torture (its being reported that prisoners were fed pork 3 times a day), etc. The story of the 20 year old being raped is a shameful one, an unjust criminal act against a minor offender-you`ve got to wonder what is going on at these places. I`ll bet its a lot worse than we suspect.
I was reading something about a former Cabinet member`s new book on Animal Rights (which I support, btw) and the litmus test for how humans INNATELY are aware of brutality taking place: if you have to avert your eyes, you are in the presence of evil...

Saminasha #54 It is interesting how jail rapes are treated more like a cultural joke in the US, rather than the serious issue that it is. I read about a 20 year old man who received a short jail sentence on a traffic violation, was raped and got aids. And in places like Pakistan the issue never even makes it to the radar screen of newspapers. I think this silence is a result of the shame felt by the victim on the one hand who chose to keep quiet rather than receive further humiliation, and the lack of concern for the fate of prisoners among the general public on the other.
Once, when visiting an African country, I returned from dinner at an outside restaurant to find the hotel I was staying in surrounded by police. Seems like a young female staff member of an aid agency was assaulted in her room just a couple of hours back. She was quietly escorted out of the country the next day by someone from her embassy. The local press reported about the country`s minister expressing his regrets that she did not wish to stay and help identify the perpetrator. Knowing the prevalence of aids in that country, I wondered for a long time what that young person must have gone through in terms of trauma and shame and on top of that the fear of aids.
Such incidents (and I am sure they are repeated countless times every day around the world) make one wonder at how much horror some people have to go through which never raises emotions on places like chowk like a handful of meaningless political issues.

Thanks to everyone for their comments on this piece. It is the first under the new column, and as such I was very excited. Please continue giving me your feedback, and feel free to get in touch with me at: bina@chowk.com.

I realize the problem I am writing about is just the tip of the iceberg, and the abuse and exploitation is not just restricted to Pakistan. Nor do I support the banning of cable or the Internet; I was just stating one of the effects of the availability of sexually charged material on both mediums.

As to my ideas of how to solve this problem, I support the manner the UAE authorities have tackled it. Once in Dubai my sister told me that two Asian women were walking down the street and an Arab in a car was following them and harassing them verbally. One of the women whipped out a mobile phone, called the police, and within minutes the roadside Romeo was on his way to jail. A stiff fine should finish the deal nicely.

Tahmed,
Actually, the kinds of assaults that take place in incarceration are indeed horrible. I can`t imagine how dehumanizing the hierarchical inmate structures must be- and how much these hierarchies mirror the administration/guards/etc. To allow that kind of abuse to occur is unconscienable.

I was a bit shocked reading about male-male workplace harrassment. Do you watch the show Scrubs? Part of the humor of the show for me was how the narrator/residency doctor was spoken to by his immediate aupervisor who would call him girl names. After I read the article, I was like, hmmm....Then then the writers started changing the tenor of the jokes; ie the intern gets called ``Bambi`` by all of the residents of all gender...so the writers seem to really understand that fine line of hostility and camp..

sexual harassment is, as Ras says in his post #36, a more serious problem than people realize. And saminasha #40 is right in that it is not restricted to harassment of women only. Saminasha #40 refers to harassment of men (by other men, and in at least a couple of cases that have gone to court, by their women bosses) in the US workplace. There is no doubt some of that going on. Much more widespread is the sexual assault of men in US jails. I understand this is true in jails around the world (AIDS is an epidemic in Russian jails, e.g.).
This brings us to Pakistan, where bad things are not spoken about in polite society. I have no doubt that sexual assaults are at least as common in Pakistani jails as in jails across the world. Public schools and male dorms are another place where homosexuality is a common theme, and in many cases it is in the form of sexual assault. Domestic servants in Pakistan are another unspoken of source of abuse of young children in the homes they work in. The list goes on...
Harassment of women on the street is just the tip of the iceberg.

studebaker #47 The comma certainly makes it a more meaningful sentence. Your meaning is still unclear. Way the sentence reads (with the comma added) is that even though arabs done devour indian culture like we pakistanis do, yet we fall for ``it``. What is this damned ``it``? Is ``it`` the harassment of women that is the subject of this article?? If that is the case, then you are saying that arabs also harass women even though they are not influenced by Indian movies.
If that is the case though, then it seems that you are agreeing with me in criticizing tipu for using indian movies as an excuse for the low class behavior of some men on the street in pakistan.
Now please dont tell me I am wrong and by ``it`` you meant something else...

…bina, glad to see such a no-holds barred article on this topic…living here all the years that i have, i guess i’ve been lucky enough to escape with just the odd lewd comment or two (apart form the omnipresent leering)…smt that i found that helps is staring right back at the a$$hole appraising you like livestock…i take great comfort in watching surprise register in their faces at being eyeballed back…more often than not they’ll drop their eyes first…the smallest victories...:)

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Studebaker #43 Is this nick from the automobile?? Or did you have it before that??

Studebaker #44 you write ``Why then other muslims from from Saudie to Morocco & Gulf countries who dont devour Indian culture as Pakistan does fall for it ? ``
What are you trying to say??

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Tipu #41 Agreed jay is a dunce. Your post (blaming harassment of women in pakistan on indian movies and hindu culture) qualifies you for the other dunce cap.

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Actually, these kinds of assaults are not restricted to females anymore. There was a disturbing article in the NYTimes Magazine about a month ago about male assaults against other men in the workplace.

Apparently, there has been a growing number of reported cases of harassing male environments in which some men are grabbed at, pinched, patted and called female names (meant to demean the recipient by likening him to a woman-interesting psycho social gender dynamics there) in private and public, loading porno into the victims` email, etc. The article reported one class action suit against a company`s management, the first ever male suit against a male environment.

The victims/recipients of these assaults bore them for several months before either quitting or formally protesting (notice how I didn`t use the word ``complain`` or ``charge``) The responses were alas, typical of the enviroment that harassers grow and mutate in. The recipients/victims were ridiculed even further, or ignored not only by the rest of the workstaff but by management. The harassers came up with several ingenious defenses worthy of our own Psycho 12 head Studebaker/amir/shah/whatever- , the victims misunderstood, they were oversensitive, this is the reality, deal with it-anything to deny responsibility or accountability for some outrageous behavior. In most cases, the victims worked for the harassers.



Its all about power, folks.

You are an excellent writer,
writing with great ``Ethos, Logos, and Pathos``

Well, I was wondering if I can get in touch with you,
and show you some of my work.

I am sruggling writer... But I want to emulate your foot-steps, and maybe publish my prose and poetry...

How can I possible get in touch with you!

You could possibly email me at xanaduism@yahoo.com

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=12&ItemID=2537

Adam Teasing -Eve Teasing are soft names for very serious problems.
The forcible separation of the sexes is unnatural. Peole have to eventually dicover that there is a lot more to the opposite sexes than
objects of lust.

Flirting is good. Manhandling is not.

The new era of Information Tech. and mass visual communications is
bringing in just 1/2 the message to viewers. There is a lot more to young shaking bodies and scantily clad performers on TV. The problem is that people do not know how to translate this type of display into their own sexually repressive environment.

Ras

Bina,

It is heartening to see an article of relevance to the pak society, that portrays the reality of pakistan to those who pretend to be blind. Other than the articles by hoodboy, I do not remeber seing another one to discuss the underlying forces of pak society.

Since the beginning of chowk may be a few hundred authors have found the images on chowk, but only two out of them who has seen the reality of pakistan in a critical way and are honest enough to write about it only reinforces the hopelessness of the pak socity.

Your article is not the harbinger of changes in mental landscape of the pakistanis, it is only an oddity like the five leaved clover, randon as a bolt from the blue.

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The learing is the staple diet of the frustrated Paki male. Standing in high noon at apwa college just to have a peek on chadar laden girls is the most silly and pathetic sight. But in the society where women are cheapen as personal property and no venue to vent those frustration, this is the end result. I agree with the other poster this is least of the problems when there are more shameful crimes are commited.

BTW why there is so much fascination with sex when the end result is liquid mess.

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nawaid #95 you write ``and i hope some female here having decent size of breast can eloborate the inside feeling ``
On the other hand, if you or urstruly have a decent size bottom, perhaps you could experience the inside feeling of being groped by visiting certain parts of pakistan. If you have not already enjoyed that experience. Alternatively, try it out on your mom, and ask her for her inside feelings.
:-)

well, of course the usual suspects don`t seem to be taking this a whole lot seriously.
And there is a big difference between FLIRTING, and guys chasing you, grabbing your breasts, and your ass, and trying to pull off your dupatta, which results in your falling and being dragged across the ground. And some of you `men` are going to tell me that women like this kind of attention???

AAmir (27)

Well, once i used to have long hair and keep a pony tail. I thought it was quite OK, but then i observed men leering at me while overtaking my car from behind. After seeing my rugged face and big moustache, the disappointment on their face overlapping the dwindling excitement was quite something to watch :)

Urstruly (#22)

Actually what happens is that women/girls get prepared in the morning to blow the minds of Richard Gere type MEN. And they end up uninetentionally seducing bus conductors and uncouth hourly laborers. I am sure all women enjoy being given attention by attractive men, and even more.

Think of a society where most men r gays, and most women r staright. What would happen then?

Some poet (who committed suicide---dont know his name), has said:

`jab hum he na rahay to sahab
tum bad-e-saba kehlao to kia?`

(when we r longer there---what if u r the morning sypher(or beauty queen)?`

Also reminds me of some famale french PM, who has made some controversial remarks about London. She said most women do not take notice of a scantily clad woman passing by (implying most men r homo)

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``You get the mental image of boys in the playground, pulling girls’ braids, or throwing frogs at them in an attempt to make them scream with fright...``

heLL noooo!!!!!!!! when you`ve lived in karachi for 23 years, learnt the art of dodging idle hands that conveniently find a place on your butt or your boobs, slapped men for rubbing their privates with feverish delight every time they see something that looks remotely like a woman....Eve-teasing DOES NOT conjure an image that resembles the braid-pulling episode that you mentioned

rgds,
samina

i think Urstruly has a good point and i hope some female here having decent size of breast can eloborate the inside feeling .....
....gils really want a guy to cros by looking down and without checking her figures?

and when boys are stocking them how much superiority they feel?

I remember once `` Faryal Gauhar`` said `` i liked when ppl flurt with me, they ask unappropriate questions, this make me feel important``.

#13 by AmericanExpress

{Unfortunately for fantisizer ,Madhuri is pregnant}

Amex

whats wrong with fantsizing a pregnent woman....i think thts make her more hot & suxy......:)

What I find interesting how low-class, cheap behaviour (harassment of women on the street) is referred by some Pakistani reporting on such cases in english newspapers by the pompous cliche ``eve teasing``. I am waiting for the day when they learn to speak straight, and refer to such incidents ``harassment of women on the street``, or even (in case it goes beyond passing remarks and involves physical contact) ``physical assault``?
PS: If it helps make you feel better, sometimes these lowlife get theirs: I know one fellow who used his dog chain to bring down from their motorbike and a couple of such lowlife who were bothering his sister as she went out for a walk.

#18 by Ashok

{My example of truely islamic culture if practiced as in Saudie etc where marriage age is lower & compulsory is ANOTHER ways of achieving civil behaviour .Go in any Arab country u wont see badtameeze like Delhi ,Kanpur Kanpur }

the Gulf countries are totally diffrent from INDIA, PAKISTAN,,,,,their economy, systems, population are totllay diffrent from our society. If we follow the practice of early marriages someone like Bina Shah will write about it by saying that women forced to early marriages and its been opposed severl time on the pages of Chowk and other forums. Other factor is economy....normally no male get financial stability to afford marriage in our society before the age of 25.

Great write up. Reminded me of my eve-teasing days.......aaahh those were they days (sigh).

On a serious note, I think too much of everything is bad, especially when it treads into the boundries of psychosis but to be honest with you if boys stop eve-teasing girls, the girls will suffer more from the psychological problems. As a matter of fact the less eve-teased girls usually develope inferiority complex about their breasts etc. and they resort to adam-teasing to get the attention they want........ahhhh the adam-teasing (sigh)...that reminded me of the days when I used to be subjected to adam-teasing from the ``frustrated`` girls (sigh).....aaahh those were the days...(sigh)

`` yaad-e-maazi azab hai ya rab
cheen lay mujh say hafiza mera``

and does anyone remembers Ghalib`s

``chair khoobaaN say chali jaaye Assad.......

or that of Mir Taqi Mir

``Itnay say qad peh qayyamat shareer ho.....


hmmmmm eve teasing (Its a Homer-ish hmmmmm)

Thank you, Bina. I believe it is very important to make public all this information which is otherwise repressed in the name of modesty. I too have heard horror stories of the way female classmates are treated when they go out shopping.

I have a monotrack mind or you, who can`t find his nose without asking for help from those dimwitted arabs? you solve street harassment of women by locking up young girls inside men`s houses and pushing them back by 1400 years?

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# 16 {As a psycho sexual desensitization experiment boys should touch girls in a chapeorened situation to get used to it}

or both boys and girls should be brought up believing that they belong to the same planet. Too subtle for someone who believes in keeping his women covered under black shuttlecocks robes? This hydra is a real weed.

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I think in a lawless poor society, all sort of crimes flourish. Isolating just one crime is wrong.

Take incest, for example. The fact that incest is under-reported in pakistan, does not mean that it does not happen. If different and weird euphemism is used for it, it also tells a lot about ``crimes of shame`` that we do not want to acknowledge or face. Compared to incest, eve-teasing or sexual harassment is not that big thing.

there r many reasons y sexual harassment is on the rise. Madhuri and Krishna on cable TV is just one reason. The other reason is that women`s participation in national life is increasing. Their mobility has increased a lot, and hence more exposure. Do we want to create a tribal society in cities?

Take any advanced country, and u will see that sexual harassment is a price that women have to pay for their independence. It is much like massive layoffs and no job secuorties in a complete free market economics. u know the risks and u r willing to take it for better good.

Why sexual harassment is more in pakistan? it is a lawless society in transition, it is poor, there r no socially accepted channels/institutions (prostitution, strip clubs, dance clubs, dating, etc.) that can take place of a stable institution like marriage. Go to any fast food restaurant in pakistan, and u will see it is being used as social club for dating.

Having said this, what can be done? There is no one answer to root out sexual harassment in particular. Everything depends on evolution of society according to its economics. We gotta get rid of religous bull$hits and traditional institutions. We have to make sure that policing is not used just for anti-riot purpose in pakistan, but for the greater good of maintaining law and order with the civilian perspective. Any other way?

Ashok: What makes you say that this doesn`t happen in any other Muslim country? As for non-Muslim countries, India certainly has its fair share of problems in this regard, but lets talk about America for a second. Like every country in the world it has its cases of sexual harassment, generally though the types of harrassment will vary, copping feels in public is far less common.


I`ve never been to Pakistan, but let me share a couple of experiences I had when visiting India. It was impossible to go anywhere without being stared or leered at, it was like I was the first woman they`d seen, on the couple of occasions I was rode a bus in the Jallundur district of Punjab, I was physically manhandled in an obviously sexual manner, on a bus so crowded it was difficult to tell who the culprit was, if there was only one. On my 3 day journey from Punjab to Maharastra, it was awful, I lost count of the times, someone let their hand slip.


In comparison, in all the hundreds of buses I have been on in England and Canada, only once did someone cross the line, and he too happened to be from some Eastern country.


Media has its share of blame maybe, but in a country like the USA where sexual images and innunendo are far far more common, hell, sex is used to sell everything from candy to tooth floss, it seems that most men are able to control their sexual urges even when confronted by Eve in a mall, marketplace or on the bus, even though she is wearing a lot less than the burqua.

Bina !! a good job at bringing out a shadowy problem to light. people often dont like to talk about it but this phenomenon is even more frequent than load shedding.

However, i would like to ask, if you can highlight how this problem can be remedied. I am sure it has nothing to do with education as people from all starta can be found involved in this stuff. I see it stemming from moral decadance of an entire nation! Now how do u remedy that?? i dont think there is a way. ofcourse the onslaugth of cable, internet is also responsible in part to speed up the process.

Mullah`s solution even though simplistic .. may work.. provided that the environment is made conducive for young couples to find sufficient means of sustenance.

I would like to look at it in a more abstract manner. I think all our social problems like jahez, shadi, illiteracy, impoverishment and many more including the one u discussed arise from economic problems. lets hyphothesize here.. if a young boy or girl after recieving a decent education can find a good job.. i think they would be inclined towards getting married to someone of their or their family`s choice. Moreover, better economics is the key to empower the young generation with independence.. this leads to breaking away from the stranglehold of taboos, upheld by their parents.

We have all read and heard a lot about ``aurat ka istehsal`` in our society. That too arise from economic dependence of a female on her father, brother or husband. I think, given a cheaper education system and good economic infrastructure.. more and more girls could see wht they can achieve by putting in some effort. hell!! i would do anything to get a job of 25000 Rs/month.

Keep writing.. i really like your articles, both here and in dawn

M

Nawaid:

From what I have read and sometimes heard, its a big problem in India too. The extent varies by place. Delhi is worst and Bombay and Calcutta are much better in terms of femal assertiveness. Rural areas that I have been to are much better, largely because everyone knows everyone and no such acts can be hidden from parents and other relatives.

In upper middle class and upper class areas, overt hararssment is less prevalent compared to other parts, as the females are more assertive and confident. However in buses and other crowded places, cupping a feel by frustrated teenagers and older men is not common. And some of them dont spare guys too.

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Isnt this is the case of most of the socities in the region

[After fantasizing and daydreaming about Madhuri, Angelina, Karishma, Jennifer, }

what about the society of Maduri? is Madhuri not harrased......any indian bro/sis want to highlight the situation in India where Madhuri, Karishma seen most?

Jennifer. Angelina...what about their society......r things better there?

Banning cable TV or foreign channel is the soloution? agian just an inquiry as this is a big issue. Do we have to make more strict laws on eve teasing.....what about their implementation.? is proper literacy and education going to help it........?

btw very nice written piece. very true.

Harrassment spreads to all levels in Pakistan. Girls have lost top positions because tehy refused to marry teachers, and class fellows of mine, used to be stalked all the way home by guys trying to get their attention (you see NO..means yes in Pakistan)

On the flip side, some girls know how to use their gender to ensure they pass and to ensure their domination in class organisations in University. I am speaking from personal experince as a guy lol..

[... After fantasizing and daydreaming about Madhuri, Angelina, Karishma, Jennifer, who else are they going to take it out on but poor Sana, Khalida, Naila, and countless others walking down the streets, riding in buses, shopping in the malls? ...]

So are you blaming the media for this? One gets the impression that somewhere deep down inside you`re giving a silent nod to MMA`s decision to ban cable TV.

P.S. This is a serious inquiry, not sarcasm.

Bina...
Speaking as someone who has been sexually harrassed in Pakistan, I really appreciate you having written this article.
The deeper malaise in our society has actually existed for eons...and what t. refers to as the sub-surface cultural and religious contradictions have been coming to the fore for a long time, if they haven`t arrived by now. And this doesn`t just happen to college girls and working women...it happens to little girls, and those reaching the age of adolescence, both outside and within the chardewari--I know only too well. It is a source of great shame, and you`re absolutely right--both men and women are equal losers when it comes to sexual harassment in our country.
Thank you!
love, noor

``Decent behaviour`` - well, yes, the problem is that society in Pakistan has lost it`s consensus as to what ``decent`` is. A deeper malaise? cultrual contradiction? Our society is in transition, it may not seem so, but it is. It`s paraochial worldview clashes every second with cultures alien to it, this clash itself reoders priorities, turning the cosmos of the parochial pakistani on it`s head; therefore confusion and the lack of consensus as to what constitutes ``decent behaviour``. Must we ``muddle`` through it - what other choice have we?

As usual, Bina, you`ve written a great article. Never heart the term ``Eve-teasing``. It sounds extremely derogatory; one could say PLAYFUL even, when it is actually harassment.
Its sad to say, but this happens all the time in Pakistan.
Anyhow, great article!

Great Insights. I have expereinced eve teasing in its worse form and ive tried dressing absolutely ``nunnishly`` if I could use or rather coin the term. Its just pointless to think our average male will think twice before having a leering fit or nudging any woman in the butt very non chalantly as if its a very normal thing to do. The absloultely terrifying thing is the fact that it doesn`t just stop there. Its just tragic, sad and absolutely hopeless to ever wish for less overly sexualy inclined men with too many frustarations let alone those which could be classified as remotely gentelmenly. Some things just don`t change or won`t...great article Beena but too bad the person who is supposed to read it is hanging out of the open door of a public bus just to get a glimpse of a perfectly head to toe covered female who happens to have what God made every other woman have ....Tits!

Bina-
loved the article...loved the topic...and you know what? I`ve never even heard the phrase ``eve-teasing`` before...here it`s just harassment. And when I visited last time I was 16 years old and the attention I received was so horrific that I walked in a burka during my 4 weeks in Karachi.

sara

bina:

thanks for this write up…the eve teasing is no simple chaiRchaaR...it is a symbol of a deeper malaise in our society…the sub-surface cultural and religious contradictions are coming to the fore…and in the absence of real education and abundance of intolerance this will continue to grow…sorry, know no short-cut of inculcating decent behaviour…

lve,

t