Gandhi, Godse and Geeta

Veeresh#114
The evidence you are searching for in the 4 corner problem lies in the answer to why humans evolved with less than 360 degree vision.

Is it because our ancestor primates were always social pack animals and there was always someone else around to watch out for one`s back? If so, we need to figure why were our ancestors were social pack animals, and so on.

Of course the basic premise used above, evolution, is something you have to accept without first hand knowledge like the existence of the 4th corner :)

#108 vereesh

My point is of course that historical fact is alien to religion. My point is the exact opposite of yours ==== in a discussion of religion, whether or not something ``actually happened`` is simply irrelevant. What is relevant is the contents of a religous text and the what people believe in. These deserve analysis and study.

The recent much hyped claim of finding the stone casket of the ``brother of jesus`` should be approached very carefully. These names are very common jewsih names and there is no reason to connect them to religous figures. There is also a long history of ``creating`` such relics of Jesus.

dost-mittar

It is relevant to mention here the story of Rishi Valmiki, who started life as a vicious forest bandit. When, one day he tried to rob the seven celestial rishis, they asked him was he aware how much negative karma he was accumulating by his daily acts of violence. He said he did know, but he was blameless because he was only doing his duty and upholding the dharma of providing for his family of aged parents, wife and children. The seven rishis asked him to go check with his family whether they too thought him blameless and as the beneficiaries of his actions, whether they were willing to share the negative karma he was accumulating on their behalf. He did go back to ask, each person in his family said his karma was his own, they didnot want a share as they were blameless and the rest is history.

Moral of the story : doing your duty as you understand it doesnot dissipate the bad karma you may incur with your actions.

Since the Mahabharata is in focus here, I cannot resist recalling the story of how at the end of their lives on their last journey, after Draupadi and his brothers fell down and died one by one and Yudhishtra alone(with a faithful dog) arrived at the gates of heaven. (Firstly he refused to enter heaven without the dog also gaining admission. That turned out OK because the dog was Yama/Dharmaraja and it was a test of Yudhistra`s adherence to Dharma till the last ).

Anyway when he was escorted into heaven he his brothers were nowhere to seen but there was Duryodhana seated on a golden throne having a good time. He was astonished that his brothers could not attain heaven while Duryodhana could and insisted that whereever they were, he should be taken there and that was his swarga.

He was then escorted to a dark and revolting place with dead men`s bones, mutilated bodies and a terrible stench. It was so repulsive for a moment he thought of going back but then he heard his brothers`, Draupadi`s , her sons` , Karna`s etc voices beseeching him to stay there with them. Yudhishtra was astonished and enraged at the injustice of dharma and the gods and told his escort to go back, he himself was staying here.

Then after the thirtieth part of a day had passed, all the darkness and foul surroundings disappeared. It appears it was another test which Yudhishtra had passed perfectly.

Yama pointed out to him that though Yudhishtra had never failed in his dharma, in life or in death, even with such perfection, as a king and a ruler it was inevitable that he would have resorted to some minimum amount of undharmic practice to carry out his duties and hence had to suffer from the horrors of hell, even if for only a thirtieth part of a day.

Moral of the story : same as above :)

Ghalib 110,

I liked that srcasm, here is one for you.

Sky is blue. blue is not sky, sky is not blue. Is connects but still seperates betwenn blue and sky. ``is` is that nothing by which every thing is. from ``politics of experience`` by an unknown indian.

GhalibZaman (I live close to Nizamuddin, and if you are thataways, look me up?) . . . the 4-corner riddle exists in a slightly more complicated form in a book lying in a room in a family ashram, said book also contains detailed mathematical equations trying to prove a sort of ``pi`` for 4th dimension as well as astral curves which I will one day try to understand from the head who is actually an M.Tech from one of the better US Universities and whose jeep I ``borrowed`` in the old days to drive past Rishikesh . . . briefly, what the 4-corner riddle says is that you have no evidence whether the fourth corner in your room exists because you can`t see it, since it is behind your back.

What happens when you turn around? Well, another fourth corner vanishes, maybe it vibrates from here to Mars while you are not looking?

What about another person in the same room who can see your fourth corner? Well, that is not my fourth corner.

From the point of view of ``historical evidence``, I cannot defeat this logic.

Dost Mittarji - you are Nand Tandon? Mubarak, mubarak!

If I may make so bold:

``So, who was following the message of Geeta in the true sense? Gandhi, Godse or both?``

Truth kya cheez hai? You perceive it one way, I perceive it another, asli cheez tho kuchh aur hi hai. Meaning, clearly they both thought they were - and people who agree with Gandhi think HE was closer to the truth, ditto for those who agree with Godse, right?

``If both, should holy scriptures play a role in morality?``

I think one of the things that comes out of the Mahabharata is that holy scriptures can only play a role in PERSONAL morality. Both ``sides`` in the Mahabharata had people who were acting, according to their lights, dharmically - this didn`t mean that one side was dharmic or the other adharmic. (ie good people can disagree fundamentally and clash without either of their being amoral.)

Just MHO

Anyway, all - pranams from the homeland (or next door for some of you). (If anybody`s in Delhi and wants to have coffee and samosas I`m on zafreallyzaf@yahoo.com - it would be nice to see chowkistas in real life.)

Veeresh #108
Now this is the kind of thought-provoking or mind-teasing stuff which everyone from across the world admires in aborginal India (call it hinduism, if you will). Why not share & promote what is your forte?

Such enigmatic and riddle-laden queries which have no real answers but still remind us of the awe we experience of our own ignorance. This alone makes Life a worthwile sojourn.

Would you or others (sridhar?) please share whatever of such stuff you can recall from the ancient sanskrit texts.

pmishra2 and others seeking historical ``evidence`` . . . here is another take on the matter - evidence does not exist, it is like the breath we just took, gone and subjective.

Do you have evidence that the 4th corner in your room exists? Can you see all 4 corners at the same time in history? Think about this question . . .

noorie #104: Technically I disagree with you. Whose responsibility comes first is the issue. It is always believers responsibility to prove it whether it is big bang, black holes, UFOs or anything else. Pharmaceutical companies spent hundreds of millions of dollars to prove that their medicine works before approved by FDA because an affirmation is to their advantage. How much money a company B spents to disprove the claims of company A? Not even 5 percent of company A. The believers had roughly 1800 years to prove before few voiced of disapproval were raised during enlightenment period. You should not expect a non-believer or doubtful person to disprove it before yourself proving it. The onus of prove lies with you and benefit of the doubt lies to the other party in this case.
Expecting to respect from other the things you respect is also subjective and conditional. A neo-Nazi or Osama Bin Laden might expect same respect from rest of the world. Only things we should expect others to respect must be common to all such as common sense or humanism or hamidmism. Myths, mysteries, magic, beliefs, snake oils, towels, tooth brushes apne apne.
Some times two or more people can agree on certain principles but the principles can be good, bad or ugly.

re:#92 by pmishra2
It is not i but you who has to furnish proof that Jesus did not exist. More than a billion souls on this earth believe in his existence. Are they all under some kind of mass delusion?
Sridhar

GhalibZaman...I`m not really sure whether it was a plea, but `nyways...people have free will...they either choose to believe or not. I`m not sure that posting what you did is going to change anyone`s mind or heart, and that`s not what this forum should be about anyway. On these forums, it is very difficult to be critical without being insulting and offensive, and I choose to remain silent for the most part when it comes to religion. Which is what I may revert back to again, as soon as I post this.

mittar ji...regardless of whether people think holy scriptures should play a role in morality or not...holy scriptures DO play a role in morality.

#104 nooralain
Thanks for your plea for reverence and respect towards our prophets. With all our bloodied history our prophets are still of the same lineage and we of the same tradition and heritage.

Jerusalem and kaaba and bethelehem have always been part of an uniterrupted and alive culture tradition and religion.


Common roots
An ancient bond

It’s called the Holy Land, its ancient history dear to the world’s three main monotheistic religions — Judaism, Islam and Christianity. While many argue that the theological past has little to do with the nationalistic forces driving the region today, protection of religious areas and icons remains a rallying cry for the faithful.

DAVID H. WELLS / CORBIS
The Tomb of Abraham: An Israeli Hebron man holds his hands in the air as he visits the tomb of a man revered by the three monotheistic religions.


IN THE BEGINNING
Abraham, the Bible says, was called by God to leave his home and move to a new land, where he was to become the father of a mighty nation. His journey has become a tale of faith and transformation embraced by Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

As the story goes, some 4,000 years ago Abraham traveled from the Chaldean city of Ur — in present-day Iraq — to the land of Canaan — essentially modern-day Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The book of Genesis says God then spoke to Abraham in Canaan, saying: ``To your offspring, I will give this land.``

Abraham`s offspring included two sons. The first was Ishmael, whom he fathered with Hagar, his wife Sarah`s former servant. The other was Isaac, whom he fathered with Sarah.

DID YOU KNOW ... Around 1200 B.C.E., about the same time Moses led the Israelites back to Canaan, a Mediterranean seafaring people called the Philistines settled on the western seaboard of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. After the Jews returned, the Philistines battled them for years, including the skirmish recounted in the story of David and Goliath. The word Philistine is the etymological predecessor of the word Palestine. However, the modern-day Palestinians do not claim a cultural or hereditary connection to the Philistines — the tie between the two peoples is in name only.
A GLOSSARY
The Crusades: About 1090 C.E., Pope Urban II called for the rescue of Jerusalem from Muslims, and by 1099 C.E. armies had conquered Jerusalem and massacred most of its Muslims and Jews. The first crusade led to others over the next 200 years, each eventually defeated by Muslim forces. When President Bush referred to a ``crusade`` against terrorists after the attacks of Sept. 11, he hit the sorest of spots in early relations between Muslims and Christians.

Diaspora: Refers to the Jews exiled from Israel, beginning with the conquest of Israel by Babylonians. Also used today to describe Jews who live outside Israel. Palestinians also have used the term to describe their refugees from wars with Israel.






Jews believe they are descended from Isaac, who, as the legitimate son of Abraham, was the intended inheritor of God`s promised land. Muslims believe they are descended from Ishmael, Abraham`s first-born. They say Hagar was Abraham`s second wife and believe their claims to the holy land are as valid as those of the Jews.

Abraham is said to have lived 175 years, and then buried in a cave called Machpelah, in what is now the city of Hebron in the West Bank.

Abraham has become revered by three religions. In the Christian New Testament, Abraham is called ``the ancestor of all who believe.`` The Koran mentions Abraham more often than the prophet Mohammed, who is believed by Muslims to have been a direct descendant of Abraham. Jews see Abraham as the first person to recognize their God.

all this discussion on whether something happened, or whether Abraham existed or whoever reminds me of my atheist friends demanding I show them proof of the events in the Anjeel. There is nothing that proves that Abraham did not exist either, or that Jesus is not the Son of God...so why ridicule people for what they believe in?

Anil,
Thanks for the recommendation for Stephen Mitchell`s Geeta.

pmishra2,
I recent NY times article mentions the discovery of a stone tablet bearing an inscription in Aramic, `here lies James brother of Jesus`. This is being touted as the first solid archaeological proof of Jesus`s existence. The article mentioned that scientests had verified that the stone was not a fake and that the inscriptions were not made using any modern tools or methods. The only question is whether this is the same James and Jesus brothers or some other with the same names.

Regards.

Sridhar

A historical mahanharata can only diminish the the essential teachings from it. Jerusalem is a good example where the historical prophets and children of gads are perverting the very essence of their teachnigs. A mythical jesus, mohammed and other varieties of gods could have easily coexisted in jerusalem.

Kurukshetra as the earth and the battle there as the trial of life is more empowering and spiritual that an archeological kurkshetra. If one is ready to dive into the spiritual depths of gita, why come up with archeological trash. When one is trawling the religious oceans for pearls of wisdom, the sharks of history can only shred the nets.

Religious scholars should not delve into the history, for them the books should remain ink blots on paper to devine a higher being.

Jay #68
PS: I agree there wasn`t any compassion for avarnas in operational Hinduism except among the reformers. My point was once Gandhiji chose to apply the satyagraha principle to the address the degradation inherent in British-Indian relations, he couldnot avoid applying it to the degradation inherent in Indian-Indian relations. Didn`t he say, the upper caste treatment of Dalits dehumanizes not only Dalits but also the upper castes themselves.


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The quotes in #88 were those of Gandhiji and sorry the first paragraph of the 2nd quote got retyped.

dost-mittar #93
I believe those who wrote the Mahabharata (and the Bhagavatam) also considered the Ramayana preceded the Mahabharata. For instance the `Madhuvan` of Krishna`s childhood was supposed to have been forest under the rulership of an `asura` Madhu who was defeated by Shatrughna, Ram`s brother. Mathura was said to be a city established by Madhu.

And also, during the Pandavas` 13 year stay in the forest, Bhima meets an aged Hanuman.

dost-mittar #96
Perhaps Godse did think he was following the Gita. Information about what he said and did before the assassination might clarify too.

What you say about the period of 1935-1940 is valid though I wonder if the estrangement began primarily in the leadership of the ML. The rejection by the Congress of the Muslim League as a partner in coalition ministries in 1937 is often cited as a reason for final Muslim estrangement. By hindsight(20/20), I wonder if this scenario of estrangement could have occurred during any election in any state in the last 55 years in a hypothetical united India.