Gandhi, Godse and Geeta

While we are on this subject and, wonder of wonders! enjoying and appreciating RELIGION.

Chowk is definitely becoming a civilised place. I hope similar respect is extended when discussing Islam or Qura`an.


Some interesting points to ponder.

Prophet (Pbuh) Foretold in India (A) Hindu scriptures
There is no doubt that God sent Prophets (Pbuh) to people of India. There is no mention of any Indian Prophet or scripture in Holy Qur`an. But Bukhari records Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) as saying he was enjoying breeze wafting from India laden with fragrance of Tawhid (unity of God). The four Vedas (scriptures) of Hindus and their epics are said to be 5000-10,000 years old. They contain a great deal of monotheistic ideas, and of course, prophecies on Hadrath Muhammad (Pbuh).

Bhavishya Puran
This is a Sanskrit work of prophecies. The title means `Book of the Future`. Since Hinduism is based in India it was, and still is, taken for granted that its sages will be born in India itself. Contrary to this belief the Book says that a great master will appear in a foreign country (mlechcha acharya) and live in a sandy region (marusthal). His name will be Mahaaamad. Within a short span of 18 couplets Mahaamad is mentioned five times.

There is an interesting information in Bhavishya Purana that Mahaamad would appear to Bhoj, ruler of Dhar, and say that he would establish the religion of meat eaters, by the command of Ishwar i.e. God. There is a tradition that long afterwards, Bhoj got terrified on seeing the full moon split into two. Learned men consulted holy books and told him that it was one of the signs of the Universal Master to be born in a country to the West. Bhoj sent his minister to Prophet (Pbuh) in Arabia, who named the king Abdullah. The Tomb of Abdullah is still there at Dhar...

Mahabharat
This is a Hindu epic describing the struggle and triumph of good against evil. It was written by sage Vyas who also authored Bhavishya Purana. Mahabharata says that in the last eon called Kali Yug (in which we now live) a great sage will appear with name Mahaamad. He would preach about unity of God. He will be driven away from his native place by his own folk. By him the world would get peace. (Islam means peace). Mahabharat further says that cloud will provide him shade. It is recorded in history that Buhaira, the Christian priest of Syria observed this sign with Muhammad e in his boyhood and identified him as the last Prophet anticipated for millennia.

Kalki Puran
The signs and events of the final Avatar Kalki point out to final Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh). They fit those of Muhammad (Pbuh) neatly and perfectly. They are as follows;

Kalki will appear in the last on Kali Yug and will be the guide for the entire world.

He will be born on the 12th day of the month. Prophet (Pbuh) as born on 12th Of Rabiyyul Awwal).

His parents will be: Vishnu Bhagat and Soomati meaning servant of God (the Cherisher) and peace. (Messenger`s (Pbuh) father`s name was Abdullah, God`s servant and mother was Amina refuge giver which includes the idea of `peace`.)

He will be with a beauty par-excellence. His body will be fragrant.

He will get wisdom on a mountain. (Messenger (Pbuh) was conferred Prophethood on Mt.Hira)

He will receive a horse from God, which will be faster than lightning. Riding it he will go around the earth and seven skies. (During Mi`raj Prophet (Pbuh) got Buraq meaning lightning and toured the entire universe.)

Kalki will split the moon. Like Bhoj, Cheraman (Zamorin) Perumal the ruler of Indian kingdom of Kerala, witnessed splitting of the moon performed by Prophet (Pbuh). After gathering the facts he sailed to Arabia and became Muslim at Prophet`s (Pbuh) hand. His Tomb is near the city of Salala in Oman[5].


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rsridhar #82

Sounds like you believe whatever you are told. I repeat my statement: There is NO historical evidence for much of the old testament especially folks like Abraham. There is NO historical evidence that a jewish preacher called Yeshua (Jesus) existed around 10BC. If you have such evidence bring it forward. No one else has been able to, so surprise me!

Religion deals with ``sacred stories`` that are prototypical, suggest a point of view etc. They do not need to have ``really existed`` etc. Similar remarks apply to large parts of the Hindu scriptures.

Harpreet . . . coming from Delhi, on the left side after passing through Kurukshetra, there is an interesting alligator farm. Also, there is this place where Kshatris take the ashes of their dearly beloveds to the banks of the River jamuna nearby.

Close to Kurukshetra also is a town where there are at least 300-400 shops all selling ``pach-ranga`` achaar, which is really nothing much.

Better to keep driving and stop at DharamPur/Giani da Dhaba?

Jay, HN, anyone interested

You might like to look up Eknath Easwaran`s three volumes `The Bhagavad Gita for Daily Living`. His bio says `Born into an ancient matrilineal Hindu family in Kerala state, Eknath Easwaran regards his mother`s mother as his spiritual teacher.``
He mentions the example and the instruction he got from her in his childhood throughout his commentary on the Gita and the fact was she couldnot read or write and had not read any of the scriptures.

Just fyi, he went to the US on the Fullbright exchange program and then settled in Berkeley, California. Apart from books on Hinduism and Buddhism, he wrote books on Christianity too( you can check him out on B&N or Amazon).

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jay #68
Christians may have corporatized charity in keeping with being an organised religion with central authority while Hinduism was never a corporate `religion`, and charity, alm giving and universal welfare was an individual duty (and a raja`s dharma). Within the jaati, operational compassion was mutual help and support. Across jaatis, operational compassion was mostly expressed as charity which was practised as duty even in my grandmothers` generation, for whom giving away food daily for instance was a standard practice. I agree in modern times the charitable spirit or social cohesion is generally lacking. Also instead of building ever more wonderful temples, temple trusts should make it a point to put the donations back into the local community.

There is no twisting or interpreting necessary, btw.

The Gita
3:20 By performing prescribed activities, King Janaka and others realised complete perfection, likewise you should perform as well considering for the sake of benefiting the world(loksangraham)

3:25 O Arjuna, just as the ignorant act attached to activities, even so the wise being unattached should act desiring the welfare of the world(lok sangraham)

5:25 Those seers of truth, whose doubts have been dispelled, devoid of all sins, engaged in self realization and who are always concerned for the spiritual welfare of all living beings(sarva-bhuta-hite-ratah), achieve liberation in the Ultimate Truth.

A few of the many on charity:

9:27 O Arjuna, whatever action you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give in charity, whatever austerities you do, make as an offering unto me.

http://www.geocities.com/hinduismcharity/
Rig Veda
The Devas have not ordained hunger to be our death: even to the well-fed man comes death in varied shape. The riches of the liberal never waste away, while he who will not give finds none to comfort him.

Let the rich satisfy the poor implorer, and bend his eye upon a longer pathway. Riches come now to one, now to another, and like the wheels of cars are ever rolling.


Yakshaprashna in the Mahabharata(Yudhishtra was being queried by the Yaksha)

Who is the friend of the dying? His charity

What is his (a man`s) principal duty? Charity


Thirukkural

The only gift is giving to the poor;
All else is exchange.

Never to say, ``I lack`` and to give
Mark the well-born.

Duty is not for reward
Does the world recompense the rain-cloud?

The worthy work and earn wealth
In order to help others.

The wealth of a wise philanthropist
Is a village pool ever full.

Those bound to their community
Even helpless will not slacken.

dost-mittar #55
Just fyi.
http://www.mkgandhi.org/sfgbook/fourteenth.htm

Here is something he said during one of his fasts(that the timing is post-Partition obvious from his words)

``...A pure fast like duty, is its own reward. I do not embark upon it for the sake of the result it may bring. I do so because I must. Hence, I urge everybody dispassionately to examine the purpose and let me die, if I must, in peace, which I hope is ensured. Death for me would be a glorious deliverance rather than that I should be a helpless witness of the destruction of India, Hinduism, Sikhism and Islam. That destruction is certain if Pakistan ensures no equality of status and security of life and property for all professing the various faiths of the would and if India copies her. Only then Islam dies in the two Indias, not in the world. But Hinduism and Sikhism have no world outside India. Those who differ from me will be honoured by me for their resistance however implacable. Let my fast quicken conscience, not deaden it. Just contemplate the rot that has set in beloved India and you will rejoice to think that there is an humble son of hers who is strong enough and possibly pure enough to take the happy step. If he is neither, he is a burden on earth. The sooner he disappears and clears the Indian atmosphere of the burden the better for him and all concerned...``
There is an alternative which is also, almost if not quite, as difficult. This creation of two armies be created, not in order to ``face and fight common danger but to destroy one another and demonstrate to a gaping world that they were unfit for any other purpose but to fight one another unto death?..``


In the Harijan, on 20-7-47

``..There is an alternative which is also, almost if not quite, as difficult. This creation of two armies be created, not in order to ``face and fight common danger but to destroy one another and demonstrate to a gaping world that they were unfit for any other purpose but to fight one another unto death?

I have put the prospect in its awful nakedness so that everyone may see and shun it. The alternative escape is undoubtedly attractive. Will the vast mass of the Hindus and those who had joined them in the struggle for Independence realize the danger in its proper perspective and rise to the occasion and swear even now that they do not wish to have an army at all or at least refuse ever to use it against their Muslim brethren whether in the Union or outside it in Pakistan? This proposal is tantamount to asking the Hindus and their associates to turn thirty years’ weakness into strength of great beauty. Perhaps to state the Problem thus is to demonstrate its absurdity-may be God has been known making for the sake of all the parties who have subscribed to the dangerous division of the army into two self-destroying warring camps...``—H, 20-7-47, 24I.

Jay # 68

I am glad you brought that thing up. About the total disrespect for issues like compassion in Hinduism, as a tenet of justice. It is however, always exalted in heroes of Hindu mythology. So while it is an accepted as a social value worth cherishing, it is NOT considered the cornerstone of Universal/Cosmic justice. There only karma counts. It is almost exact opposite of the Shakesperean dictate of ``Justice tempered with mercy.``

IN fact that is exactly what is exciting about Buddhism. It is in exact contradiction to Hinduism`s relatively ``objective`` view of the concept of justice. Maybe that explains the popularity of the religion as a counterpoint tothe Hindu view of life.

Then again,. is it any surprise that it is HIndu society`s dalits who are today`s ``neo-Budhists.``

There is an interesting book called ``The Serpent and The Rope`` by that old savant of Sanskritised culture in English Raja Rao. It postulates why Budhism was squeezed out of India, and why it fascinated the rational Western/Cartesian mind. And Rao argues the elaborate conceptual intricasies of Maya and Reality in that.

I myself think that a justice system that precludes all chances of ``compassion`` ``mercy`` and ``forgiveness`` is the best likely to succeed at a meta physical level.

And yet, the beauty of Christianity or Islam is that they bring ``forgiveness`` to the fore as a part of their theology. Thus placing a very ``human`` quality as the centre piece of their meta physics. It is both easier to relate to MOST human beings, as well as makes a religion more equitably participatory than an esoteric Hinduism does.

Explains a lot for the reasons why more Christians and Muslims know their holy books....or at least have read it...than Hindus crowding graves without ever having read Ramayan/Mahabharat/Upanishads/Vedas.

There are several more academically sophistaicated reasons also...caste, subjugation etc....BUt above all, the esoteric nature of Hindu meta physics and its constantly widening distance from the common man is a major reason we are in many ways not so much a living breathing faith as a living breathing presense. ONly National Geographic or Discovery and their documentaries recording colourful rituals seem to be Hinduism to a whole other world that is NOT Hindu.

Harish

arjun

(100 when this dude was blind..imagine what would have happened if he wasnt blind).

Errr......didn`t think you needed eyes to.....;)

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re:#68 by jay
You seem to be a devotee (if i may use the word) of SriAurobindo. I respect that Sage a lot. Many of his words were prophetic. But i am not sure if he is right about Adisankara interpolating Geetha in Mahabharata. It is entirely possible that he popularised it when it was lying dormant. I mean, people may have lost its true meaning, immeresed in ritualistic traditions as they were at the time. By popularising Geetha, Sankara may have shifted emphasis away from rituals towards something more concrete. Remember, during his time, ritualistic and kabalistic traditions were popular. He was attempting to revive Vedic tradition with emphasis on Advaita and spent later part of his life in Bhakti (devotion).
Whatever the truth is, i have no problem if he did it or Vyasa did it? It is a beautiful peace and thank God many of us can read it in English.
Sridhar

Okay here is one last quick post:

One thing I like about Mahabharat is that it is not a white-washed account. The authors could have shown it to be Pandavas all good-good and Kauravas all bad-bad but that is not the case. The events described are so vivid and diverse in nature that it doesn`t appear to me the imagination of the authors. It is a living colorful account of the customs, philosophical thoughts and history of the Indian people. Of course you would have to interpret it in a meaningful way which includes discarding supernatural things like Brahmastra, Agni-bana, people taking birth from fire etc. But that is a common feature of most of the religious books from different parts of the world and Hindus are not alone in this regard. For those who are unaware, Ramayana and Mahabharat are considered to be historical documents. For example the field of action in Mahabharat is Kurukshetra which shifts to Kosala in Ramayana signifying movement of Aryans eastwards etc. Gotta go. Bye.

re: Gandhi
There is at least one person in chowk who thinks there will be many Gandhis in future. I see only Godses. All he remembers of Gandhi is agitational aspect of that great man. That is all most Indians have reduced themselves to today. Gandhi agitated to liberate India. But, still a free India is in an agitational mode. There is strike/agitation for any rhyme or reason. This is the only way Indians know to agitate. Gandhiji did not realise that his countrymen would take this aspect and blow it up so much. Why not learn the good things from him: his simplicity, his honesty, his patriotism.
Sridhar

re:#65 by pmishra2
May be 20 years from now, no one will remember a dude called pmishra or for that matter sridhar but Abraham or Jesus will live on. BTW, on what basis do you question the existence of these prophets? Please do not harp on science. I am a man of science. Not one of my research Gurus, i mean not one, has said that he or she does not believe in biblical prophets. May be India is turning cynical and i see it in the writings of some Indians in chowk.
Sridhar

Dost Mitter:

The best English translation of Geeta that I have read is by an American. His name is Stephen Mitchell. Mitchell has extensively translated Zen and other Buddhist work, and Eastern Philosophy too.

In my childhood, my Dad made my sister and I remember Geeta by heart, but I learned nothing. Instead grew rebellious. A few years ago I had an opportunity to read Stephen Mitchell`s work, and including Radhakrishnan`s work on Geeta and Upnishads. I also read Rumi`s book on Sufism. This was given as a present to me by a dear person from Chowk. The symmetry in thoughts and expression amazed me. I am sure Geeta and Rumi`s Sufism were expressed distanced both in time and space.

I thought Mitchell`s translation was simply marvellous. I finished and understood every word of it, in about two hours. Mitchell has organized verses of Geeta in abstract thoughts like, Truth, Love, Relationships, Soul, Death etc. He has organized them as the verses of questions that Arjun poses and the answers that Krishna gives. I would recommend it to anyone interested in Geeta.

To me, Geeta reflects timeless Human Thoughts. It is amazing how these thoughts whenever expressed, are still relevant. I do not view Geeta as the expression of GOD`s word etc. Instead, a little more humble, Human Thoughts. Its symmetrical beauty allows people to read, understand and see whatever they want. Just as when a murderer sees in the mirror he/she sees completely different than what the most beautiful woman sees in the mirror when she looks in it. Like Geeta, to me, is for us to see and reflect.

Similarly, expressions for example, in Koran, allows Bin Laden to see whatever he wants, while to a Sufi the expressions in Koran are quite different. Likewise is Godse and Gandhi analogy too.

ANIL KAPURIA

Dost-Mittar jee

I am out of town till Monday, next week. After that we will continue our discussion from where I have left if the article is on front page. Regarding Dharma, let me merely mention what is often called the ``sookshma bhed`` of Dharma for future discussions. Suppose I defined Dharma to consist solely of Truth, Honesty and non-violence. Then what should one do in a situation if two of the aforementioned values contradict each other. How can one decide what value should one give priority to. In other words, what is the bedrock of Dharma and how do the ethics evolve over time and space(ie in different societies). Some of the things that Lord Krishna did will make greater sense once you have pondered over the above questions. I also never understood all this till I developed a basic understanding of the game theory. That is not to say I have answers to all these questions now, but at least I have one ``reasonable`` perspective.