Gandhi, Godse and Geeta

arjun

(100 when this dude was blind..imagine what would have happened if he wasnt blind).

Errr......didn`t think you needed eyes to.....;)

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re:#68 by jay
You seem to be a devotee (if i may use the word) of SriAurobindo. I respect that Sage a lot. Many of his words were prophetic. But i am not sure if he is right about Adisankara interpolating Geetha in Mahabharata. It is entirely possible that he popularised it when it was lying dormant. I mean, people may have lost its true meaning, immeresed in ritualistic traditions as they were at the time. By popularising Geetha, Sankara may have shifted emphasis away from rituals towards something more concrete. Remember, during his time, ritualistic and kabalistic traditions were popular. He was attempting to revive Vedic tradition with emphasis on Advaita and spent later part of his life in Bhakti (devotion).
Whatever the truth is, i have no problem if he did it or Vyasa did it? It is a beautiful peace and thank God many of us can read it in English.
Sridhar

Okay here is one last quick post:

One thing I like about Mahabharat is that it is not a white-washed account. The authors could have shown it to be Pandavas all good-good and Kauravas all bad-bad but that is not the case. The events described are so vivid and diverse in nature that it doesn`t appear to me the imagination of the authors. It is a living colorful account of the customs, philosophical thoughts and history of the Indian people. Of course you would have to interpret it in a meaningful way which includes discarding supernatural things like Brahmastra, Agni-bana, people taking birth from fire etc. But that is a common feature of most of the religious books from different parts of the world and Hindus are not alone in this regard. For those who are unaware, Ramayana and Mahabharat are considered to be historical documents. For example the field of action in Mahabharat is Kurukshetra which shifts to Kosala in Ramayana signifying movement of Aryans eastwards etc. Gotta go. Bye.

re: Gandhi
There is at least one person in chowk who thinks there will be many Gandhis in future. I see only Godses. All he remembers of Gandhi is agitational aspect of that great man. That is all most Indians have reduced themselves to today. Gandhi agitated to liberate India. But, still a free India is in an agitational mode. There is strike/agitation for any rhyme or reason. This is the only way Indians know to agitate. Gandhiji did not realise that his countrymen would take this aspect and blow it up so much. Why not learn the good things from him: his simplicity, his honesty, his patriotism.
Sridhar

re:#65 by pmishra2
May be 20 years from now, no one will remember a dude called pmishra or for that matter sridhar but Abraham or Jesus will live on. BTW, on what basis do you question the existence of these prophets? Please do not harp on science. I am a man of science. Not one of my research Gurus, i mean not one, has said that he or she does not believe in biblical prophets. May be India is turning cynical and i see it in the writings of some Indians in chowk.
Sridhar

Dost Mitter:

The best English translation of Geeta that I have read is by an American. His name is Stephen Mitchell. Mitchell has extensively translated Zen and other Buddhist work, and Eastern Philosophy too.

In my childhood, my Dad made my sister and I remember Geeta by heart, but I learned nothing. Instead grew rebellious. A few years ago I had an opportunity to read Stephen Mitchell`s work, and including Radhakrishnan`s work on Geeta and Upnishads. I also read Rumi`s book on Sufism. This was given as a present to me by a dear person from Chowk. The symmetry in thoughts and expression amazed me. I am sure Geeta and Rumi`s Sufism were expressed distanced both in time and space.

I thought Mitchell`s translation was simply marvellous. I finished and understood every word of it, in about two hours. Mitchell has organized verses of Geeta in abstract thoughts like, Truth, Love, Relationships, Soul, Death etc. He has organized them as the verses of questions that Arjun poses and the answers that Krishna gives. I would recommend it to anyone interested in Geeta.

To me, Geeta reflects timeless Human Thoughts. It is amazing how these thoughts whenever expressed, are still relevant. I do not view Geeta as the expression of GOD`s word etc. Instead, a little more humble, Human Thoughts. Its symmetrical beauty allows people to read, understand and see whatever they want. Just as when a murderer sees in the mirror he/she sees completely different than what the most beautiful woman sees in the mirror when she looks in it. Like Geeta, to me, is for us to see and reflect.

Similarly, expressions for example, in Koran, allows Bin Laden to see whatever he wants, while to a Sufi the expressions in Koran are quite different. Likewise is Godse and Gandhi analogy too.

ANIL KAPURIA

Dost-Mittar jee

I am out of town till Monday, next week. After that we will continue our discussion from where I have left if the article is on front page. Regarding Dharma, let me merely mention what is often called the ``sookshma bhed`` of Dharma for future discussions. Suppose I defined Dharma to consist solely of Truth, Honesty and non-violence. Then what should one do in a situation if two of the aforementioned values contradict each other. How can one decide what value should one give priority to. In other words, what is the bedrock of Dharma and how do the ethics evolve over time and space(ie in different societies). Some of the things that Lord Krishna did will make greater sense once you have pondered over the above questions. I also never understood all this till I developed a basic understanding of the game theory. That is not to say I have answers to all these questions now, but at least I have one ``reasonable`` perspective.

re:#71 by rsaxena
In believing or disbelieving Mahabharata, i would rather go by what sages and seers have to say than what some in this chowk are saying. After all what expertise have you or others to say the events really did not happen? If Mahabharata did not happen the way it is being taught, enlighten us as to how it happened.
Of course, Mahabharata is full of symbolism. But the symbolisms are based on real life events. Most Indians miss out on the symbolism and read Mahabharata as a family drama.
So, did Krishna really exist or is he also a myth? After all Krishna forms an important character in this whole epic drama and without him, the epic is nothing.
In this regard, may i point out that a whole new city of Dwaraka has been excavated in 1987 off the coast of Gujarat under the sea by S.R.Rao and his colleagues, putting to rest the mythical Dwaraka. The German archaologist who spend all his millions in trying to find the city of Troy did find it: not one but seven of them one below the other (i am forgetting his name but you can surf the internet and find out).
So, in these matters let the sages speak. Yogananda wrote an eminently readable book on the symbolism of Geetha. He does concede that Geetha was perhaps imagined as a coversation between Arjuna and Krishna by Vyasa. Vyasa was a very spiritual and liberated soul and he wanted to tell the spiritual truths and it is entirely possible that he did introduce this imaginary conversation happening just before the epic war.
Rest of the events in Mahabharata is as real and you and me. So says Yogananda, one of the great masters that India has produced in the last century. I think i will let it rest at that.
Sridhar

re:#69 by jay
You seem to be baffled by too many magical things that happened in Mahabharata. What is it that baffles you? That India had already reached the pinnacle of glory, both spiritually and materialistically or that compared to India`s pathetic condition today, all that is being said in Mahbharata looks like fairy tale?
Without going into controversial things, all i have to say is that science today does not have all the answers. I have seen how science works. It depends on facts. There is no book of science that says God exists or there is something as a soul. Yet, these were the very things that concerned the Sages and Yogis of the past. Many of them seem to have transcended time and space by being one with God. One of them wrote a classic in sanskrit (often quoted by Wayne Dyer, the eminent pschologist and new age Guru in USA). Yogasutra by Patanjali details how to scientifically approach and merge with God. It also details the benefits (including many Siddhis or powers) that accrue during the process. The process occurs in stages and is painfully slow and few can even attempt it. However, it has been done and many yogis of present and past are a living proof. If you or anyone else in chowk says this is all nonsense, it is too bad. It still does not change the fact that it has been or is being done.
I would recommend you or anyone else in chowk a book by Paul Brunton. It is called ``A search in secret India``. Now, Brunton was a British journalist, a well educated man. He was intrigued by yogis of India and he went in search of a real Guru. On this journey, he witnessed a number of miracles that he has written about in the book. This book became a best seller in 1930s, a time when few knew or cared about yogis. BTW, Brunton was also the first man from West to have written in detail about Yoga and introduced yoga to the west. Did he finally find a Guru? Read that book. It is unputdownable.

Sridhar

re:#67 by arjun_m
Proof, Proof! Let me see. Is there a proof God exists? Is there a proof there is something called a Soul? What kind of proof are you talking about? One which can be held in hand or seen under a microscope? Is there something called a life experience? Close to 95% (perhaps more) people in this world (leaving China, we do not know how many in China believe in God though officially it shuns religion) believe in God yet only a handful have experienced or seen God.
How about soul? The best available technology cannot document the presence of a soul in the body, yet it is felt and people believe in it. Raymond Moody became famous for research on NDE (near death experience) and documented this elusive entity. Popular culture in the west does not support it and wants scientific proof. You seem to be aping the west when you talk about proof.

Sridhar

I have driven past Kurukshetra many times but never visited it..is it worth stopping by??

My post #70
PS: correction : Gandhiji was in E Bengal from end of Oct 46 to sometime in Jan 47(more like 2-3 months not 6)

re: rsridhar

{Majority of Indians (including educated ones like me) believe Mahabharata and the epic battle really happened. }

...the mahabharat represents some of the most profound thinking on the human experience...it is creative and imaginative...perhaps there is symbolism based on real events of the time....but let us not insult the author by suggesting that we think it all really happened, particularly as described...

sameer /dostmitter -- at the end of the epic war almost every one of the Family was dead except the Pandavas brothers –

It is said that poor Pandavas were so heartbroken with that pyrrhic victory that they, with Draupadi, self-exile themselves to mountains in Nepal in an area that borders UP.

Interestingly enough even today, up in the high mountains of Nepal -- there is a tribe that claims Pandavas as its ancestors -- and practices Polyandry among its people!

Sadna,

One can quote various verses and interpretations of gita and tie oneself in knots. In an operational sense, hinduism did not include the upliftment of the downtrodden, compassion for the fellow humans. It is worth noting that untill recently there has been no hindu charitable organisations, no orphanages, no salvation army to help the poor, no system for collecting contributions from the avaerage man in the street to consolidate to a common good as in a christian society. No love thy neighbour, no sakkat. Helping the dalits and non-violence are the christian/ budhist rereading of gita by gamdhi, no one in the past had done that.

Many rich indians , maharajas have indulged in charity at the promptings of private karma, not from a notion of social obligation. Hinduism is devoid of aany social consciousness as we understand it today, weach left to her/ his own karma. Ironically, this is the strength of hindus today, adapting to the cultures from fiji to surinam to the US.

Sridhar,

Quoting from memory dating back 30 years, Aurobindo in his essays on gita talks about the role of adi sankara. Till sankara came along there has been no mention of gita in the discourses by earlier scholars. It was sankara who promoted gita to the present status at par with vedas and upanishads. Final comment by aurobindo is that if it was inserted by sankara, he has done a splendid job.

As you say, sankaras main challenge was to contain bidhism and he achieved this by making Budhha the 9 th avatar, another god in the hindu pantheon. Now dont tell me that you havnot heard of this.