Gandhi, Godse and Geeta

jay #68
Christians may have corporatized charity in keeping with being an organised religion with central authority while Hinduism was never a corporate `religion`, and charity, alm giving and universal welfare was an individual duty (and a raja`s dharma). Within the jaati, operational compassion was mutual help and support. Across jaatis, operational compassion was mostly expressed as charity which was practised as duty even in my grandmothers` generation, for whom giving away food daily for instance was a standard practice. I agree in modern times the charitable spirit or social cohesion is generally lacking. Also instead of building ever more wonderful temples, temple trusts should make it a point to put the donations back into the local community.

There is no twisting or interpreting necessary, btw.

The Gita
3:20 By performing prescribed activities, King Janaka and others realised complete perfection, likewise you should perform as well considering for the sake of benefiting the world(loksangraham)

3:25 O Arjuna, just as the ignorant act attached to activities, even so the wise being unattached should act desiring the welfare of the world(lok sangraham)

5:25 Those seers of truth, whose doubts have been dispelled, devoid of all sins, engaged in self realization and who are always concerned for the spiritual welfare of all living beings(sarva-bhuta-hite-ratah), achieve liberation in the Ultimate Truth.

A few of the many on charity:

9:27 O Arjuna, whatever action you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give in charity, whatever austerities you do, make as an offering unto me.

http://www.geocities.com/hinduismcharity/
Rig Veda
The Devas have not ordained hunger to be our death: even to the well-fed man comes death in varied shape. The riches of the liberal never waste away, while he who will not give finds none to comfort him.

Let the rich satisfy the poor implorer, and bend his eye upon a longer pathway. Riches come now to one, now to another, and like the wheels of cars are ever rolling.


Yakshaprashna in the Mahabharata(Yudhishtra was being queried by the Yaksha)

Who is the friend of the dying? His charity

What is his (a man`s) principal duty? Charity


Thirukkural

The only gift is giving to the poor;
All else is exchange.

Never to say, ``I lack`` and to give
Mark the well-born.

Duty is not for reward
Does the world recompense the rain-cloud?

The worthy work and earn wealth
In order to help others.

The wealth of a wise philanthropist
Is a village pool ever full.

Those bound to their community
Even helpless will not slacken.

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Jay, HN, anyone interested

You might like to look up Eknath Easwaran`s three volumes `The Bhagavad Gita for Daily Living`. His bio says `Born into an ancient matrilineal Hindu family in Kerala state, Eknath Easwaran regards his mother`s mother as his spiritual teacher.``
He mentions the example and the instruction he got from her in his childhood throughout his commentary on the Gita and the fact was she couldnot read or write and had not read any of the scriptures.

Just fyi, he went to the US on the Fullbright exchange program and then settled in Berkeley, California. Apart from books on Hinduism and Buddhism, he wrote books on Christianity too( you can check him out on B&N or Amazon).

Harpreet . . . coming from Delhi, on the left side after passing through Kurukshetra, there is an interesting alligator farm. Also, there is this place where Kshatris take the ashes of their dearly beloveds to the banks of the River jamuna nearby.

Close to Kurukshetra also is a town where there are at least 300-400 shops all selling ``pach-ranga`` achaar, which is really nothing much.

Better to keep driving and stop at DharamPur/Giani da Dhaba?

rsridhar #82

Sounds like you believe whatever you are told. I repeat my statement: There is NO historical evidence for much of the old testament especially folks like Abraham. There is NO historical evidence that a jewish preacher called Yeshua (Jesus) existed around 10BC. If you have such evidence bring it forward. No one else has been able to, so surprise me!

Religion deals with ``sacred stories`` that are prototypical, suggest a point of view etc. They do not need to have ``really existed`` etc. Similar remarks apply to large parts of the Hindu scriptures.

While we are on this subject and, wonder of wonders! enjoying and appreciating RELIGION.

Chowk is definitely becoming a civilised place. I hope similar respect is extended when discussing Islam or Qura`an.


Some interesting points to ponder.

Prophet (Pbuh) Foretold in India (A) Hindu scriptures
There is no doubt that God sent Prophets (Pbuh) to people of India. There is no mention of any Indian Prophet or scripture in Holy Qur`an. But Bukhari records Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) as saying he was enjoying breeze wafting from India laden with fragrance of Tawhid (unity of God). The four Vedas (scriptures) of Hindus and their epics are said to be 5000-10,000 years old. They contain a great deal of monotheistic ideas, and of course, prophecies on Hadrath Muhammad (Pbuh).

Bhavishya Puran
This is a Sanskrit work of prophecies. The title means `Book of the Future`. Since Hinduism is based in India it was, and still is, taken for granted that its sages will be born in India itself. Contrary to this belief the Book says that a great master will appear in a foreign country (mlechcha acharya) and live in a sandy region (marusthal). His name will be Mahaaamad. Within a short span of 18 couplets Mahaamad is mentioned five times.

There is an interesting information in Bhavishya Purana that Mahaamad would appear to Bhoj, ruler of Dhar, and say that he would establish the religion of meat eaters, by the command of Ishwar i.e. God. There is a tradition that long afterwards, Bhoj got terrified on seeing the full moon split into two. Learned men consulted holy books and told him that it was one of the signs of the Universal Master to be born in a country to the West. Bhoj sent his minister to Prophet (Pbuh) in Arabia, who named the king Abdullah. The Tomb of Abdullah is still there at Dhar...

Mahabharat
This is a Hindu epic describing the struggle and triumph of good against evil. It was written by sage Vyas who also authored Bhavishya Purana. Mahabharata says that in the last eon called Kali Yug (in which we now live) a great sage will appear with name Mahaamad. He would preach about unity of God. He will be driven away from his native place by his own folk. By him the world would get peace. (Islam means peace). Mahabharat further says that cloud will provide him shade. It is recorded in history that Buhaira, the Christian priest of Syria observed this sign with Muhammad e in his boyhood and identified him as the last Prophet anticipated for millennia.

Kalki Puran
The signs and events of the final Avatar Kalki point out to final Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh). They fit those of Muhammad (Pbuh) neatly and perfectly. They are as follows;

Kalki will appear in the last on Kali Yug and will be the guide for the entire world.

He will be born on the 12th day of the month. Prophet (Pbuh) as born on 12th Of Rabiyyul Awwal).

His parents will be: Vishnu Bhagat and Soomati meaning servant of God (the Cherisher) and peace. (Messenger`s (Pbuh) father`s name was Abdullah, God`s servant and mother was Amina refuge giver which includes the idea of `peace`.)

He will be with a beauty par-excellence. His body will be fragrant.

He will get wisdom on a mountain. (Messenger (Pbuh) was conferred Prophethood on Mt.Hira)

He will receive a horse from God, which will be faster than lightning. Riding it he will go around the earth and seven skies. (During Mi`raj Prophet (Pbuh) got Buraq meaning lightning and toured the entire universe.)

Kalki will split the moon. Like Bhoj, Cheraman (Zamorin) Perumal the ruler of Indian kingdom of Kerala, witnessed splitting of the moon performed by Prophet (Pbuh). After gathering the facts he sailed to Arabia and became Muslim at Prophet`s (Pbuh) hand. His Tomb is near the city of Salala in Oman[5].


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Jay #68
PS: I agree there wasn`t any compassion for avarnas in operational Hinduism except among the reformers. My point was once Gandhiji chose to apply the satyagraha principle to the address the degradation inherent in British-Indian relations, he couldnot avoid applying it to the degradation inherent in Indian-Indian relations. Didn`t he say, the upper caste treatment of Dalits dehumanizes not only Dalits but also the upper castes themselves.


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The quotes in #88 were those of Gandhiji and sorry the first paragraph of the 2nd quote got retyped.

dost-mittar #93
I believe those who wrote the Mahabharata (and the Bhagavatam) also considered the Ramayana preceded the Mahabharata. For instance the `Madhuvan` of Krishna`s childhood was supposed to have been forest under the rulership of an `asura` Madhu who was defeated by Shatrughna, Ram`s brother. Mathura was said to be a city established by Madhu.

And also, during the Pandavas` 13 year stay in the forest, Bhima meets an aged Hanuman.

dost-mittar #96
Perhaps Godse did think he was following the Gita. Information about what he said and did before the assassination might clarify too.

What you say about the period of 1935-1940 is valid though I wonder if the estrangement began primarily in the leadership of the ML. The rejection by the Congress of the Muslim League as a partner in coalition ministries in 1937 is often cited as a reason for final Muslim estrangement. By hindsight(20/20), I wonder if this scenario of estrangement could have occurred during any election in any state in the last 55 years in a hypothetical united India.

Sridhar

A historical mahanharata can only diminish the the essential teachings from it. Jerusalem is a good example where the historical prophets and children of gads are perverting the very essence of their teachnigs. A mythical jesus, mohammed and other varieties of gods could have easily coexisted in jerusalem.

Kurukshetra as the earth and the battle there as the trial of life is more empowering and spiritual that an archeological kurkshetra. If one is ready to dive into the spiritual depths of gita, why come up with archeological trash. When one is trawling the religious oceans for pearls of wisdom, the sharks of history can only shred the nets.

Religious scholars should not delve into the history, for them the books should remain ink blots on paper to devine a higher being.

Anil,
Thanks for the recommendation for Stephen Mitchell`s Geeta.

pmishra2,
I recent NY times article mentions the discovery of a stone tablet bearing an inscription in Aramic, `here lies James brother of Jesus`. This is being touted as the first solid archaeological proof of Jesus`s existence. The article mentioned that scientests had verified that the stone was not a fake and that the inscriptions were not made using any modern tools or methods. The only question is whether this is the same James and Jesus brothers or some other with the same names.

Regards.

all this discussion on whether something happened, or whether Abraham existed or whoever reminds me of my atheist friends demanding I show them proof of the events in the Anjeel. There is nothing that proves that Abraham did not exist either, or that Jesus is not the Son of God...so why ridicule people for what they believe in?

#104 nooralain
Thanks for your plea for reverence and respect towards our prophets. With all our bloodied history our prophets are still of the same lineage and we of the same tradition and heritage.

Jerusalem and kaaba and bethelehem have always been part of an uniterrupted and alive culture tradition and religion.


Common roots
An ancient bond

It’s called the Holy Land, its ancient history dear to the world’s three main monotheistic religions — Judaism, Islam and Christianity. While many argue that the theological past has little to do with the nationalistic forces driving the region today, protection of religious areas and icons remains a rallying cry for the faithful.

DAVID H. WELLS / CORBIS
The Tomb of Abraham: An Israeli Hebron man holds his hands in the air as he visits the tomb of a man revered by the three monotheistic religions.


IN THE BEGINNING
Abraham, the Bible says, was called by God to leave his home and move to a new land, where he was to become the father of a mighty nation. His journey has become a tale of faith and transformation embraced by Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

As the story goes, some 4,000 years ago Abraham traveled from the Chaldean city of Ur — in present-day Iraq — to the land of Canaan — essentially modern-day Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The book of Genesis says God then spoke to Abraham in Canaan, saying: ``To your offspring, I will give this land.``

Abraham`s offspring included two sons. The first was Ishmael, whom he fathered with Hagar, his wife Sarah`s former servant. The other was Isaac, whom he fathered with Sarah.

DID YOU KNOW ... Around 1200 B.C.E., about the same time Moses led the Israelites back to Canaan, a Mediterranean seafaring people called the Philistines settled on the western seaboard of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. After the Jews returned, the Philistines battled them for years, including the skirmish recounted in the story of David and Goliath. The word Philistine is the etymological predecessor of the word Palestine. However, the modern-day Palestinians do not claim a cultural or hereditary connection to the Philistines — the tie between the two peoples is in name only.
A GLOSSARY
The Crusades: About 1090 C.E., Pope Urban II called for the rescue of Jerusalem from Muslims, and by 1099 C.E. armies had conquered Jerusalem and massacred most of its Muslims and Jews. The first crusade led to others over the next 200 years, each eventually defeated by Muslim forces. When President Bush referred to a ``crusade`` against terrorists after the attacks of Sept. 11, he hit the sorest of spots in early relations between Muslims and Christians.

Diaspora: Refers to the Jews exiled from Israel, beginning with the conquest of Israel by Babylonians. Also used today to describe Jews who live outside Israel. Palestinians also have used the term to describe their refugees from wars with Israel.






Jews believe they are descended from Isaac, who, as the legitimate son of Abraham, was the intended inheritor of God`s promised land. Muslims believe they are descended from Ishmael, Abraham`s first-born. They say Hagar was Abraham`s second wife and believe their claims to the holy land are as valid as those of the Jews.

Abraham is said to have lived 175 years, and then buried in a cave called Machpelah, in what is now the city of Hebron in the West Bank.

Abraham has become revered by three religions. In the Christian New Testament, Abraham is called ``the ancestor of all who believe.`` The Koran mentions Abraham more often than the prophet Mohammed, who is believed by Muslims to have been a direct descendant of Abraham. Jews see Abraham as the first person to recognize their God.

GhalibZaman...I`m not really sure whether it was a plea, but `nyways...people have free will...they either choose to believe or not. I`m not sure that posting what you did is going to change anyone`s mind or heart, and that`s not what this forum should be about anyway. On these forums, it is very difficult to be critical without being insulting and offensive, and I choose to remain silent for the most part when it comes to religion. Which is what I may revert back to again, as soon as I post this.

mittar ji...regardless of whether people think holy scriptures should play a role in morality or not...holy scriptures DO play a role in morality.

re:#92 by pmishra2
It is not i but you who has to furnish proof that Jesus did not exist. More than a billion souls on this earth believe in his existence. Are they all under some kind of mass delusion?
Sridhar

noorie #104: Technically I disagree with you. Whose responsibility comes first is the issue. It is always believers responsibility to prove it whether it is big bang, black holes, UFOs or anything else. Pharmaceutical companies spent hundreds of millions of dollars to prove that their medicine works before approved by FDA because an affirmation is to their advantage. How much money a company B spents to disprove the claims of company A? Not even 5 percent of company A. The believers had roughly 1800 years to prove before few voiced of disapproval were raised during enlightenment period. You should not expect a non-believer or doubtful person to disprove it before yourself proving it. The onus of prove lies with you and benefit of the doubt lies to the other party in this case.
Expecting to respect from other the things you respect is also subjective and conditional. A neo-Nazi or Osama Bin Laden might expect same respect from rest of the world. Only things we should expect others to respect must be common to all such as common sense or humanism or hamidmism. Myths, mysteries, magic, beliefs, snake oils, towels, tooth brushes apne apne.
Some times two or more people can agree on certain principles but the principles can be good, bad or ugly.

pmishra2 and others seeking historical ``evidence`` . . . here is another take on the matter - evidence does not exist, it is like the breath we just took, gone and subjective.

Do you have evidence that the 4th corner in your room exists? Can you see all 4 corners at the same time in history? Think about this question . . .

Veeresh #108
Now this is the kind of thought-provoking or mind-teasing stuff which everyone from across the world admires in aborginal India (call it hinduism, if you will). Why not share & promote what is your forte?

Such enigmatic and riddle-laden queries which have no real answers but still remind us of the awe we experience of our own ignorance. This alone makes Life a worthwile sojourn.

Would you or others (sridhar?) please share whatever of such stuff you can recall from the ancient sanskrit texts.