The Endangered Species

Total evasion....complete refusal to look at anything past your own nose-and you wonder why you have to bring this issue to me...

WHEN and IF you grow up Umer Sahib, you`ll understand what I have written, unless you are invested in being one of those myopic nags who cannot tolerate that people- even PARENTS!- gasp! -might not agree with the agenda of a child who has never raised a human being....

Well, Samina,

I am happy to hear of your mother. I hope she is healthy and please pass this jamaati`s regards to her. As for whether I can take her opinion on board, I`m afraid to say that your interpretation skills are not exactly the best in the world. For all I know, you were reading the Chinese menu to her.

Now, I`ve answered all your questions. If you feel that there`s some hidden agenda, please feel free to consult this issue with me and we can go over the possible motivations for my so-called obsession with this character, if only to relieve you. Reminds me of the dog chasing her own tail because the only reason it seems I`m so involved is because I`m being forced to reply to your questions. I have expressed before that this matter is finished, that I only spoke to her and tried to give a her a `real` picture and that is as far as I went. There must be something in the rule books about discussing someone`s life for so long which is why I said to Ajeet and yourself that we should finish this. However, since you fail to appreciate the point of my first post and are doing 180rpm on an autopilot, I have to speak about our study…again. Hence the illusion that I`m dwelling shwelling.

Now then, you have utterly failed to reach to the core of the situation and appreciate that the study is behaving selfishly. You just don’t get it, do you? I`m surprised that a mature person like you cannot appreciate and juggle various terms such as culture, selfishness, independence, liberty, privacy, talking, suggesting, imposing etc. etc. Instead, you have to consult with a wiser person to back up your opinion. Quiet sad really. Moreover, you fail to realise different cultures and different schools of thought. You still fail to realise that for it`s a two-way thing. Why should a parent bust their a$$? Where is it written that it is an obligation for a parent to give up their life for a child but they deserve nothing in return? Does the parent not deserve the truth? Do they not deserve that fundamental right? Is selfishness not a universally acknowledged evil? Is truth not a universally acknowledged right? Name me one culture where this is not so.

It`s the height of selfishness, not to mention cowardliness, to do all these things behind someone`s back and not face those contributing towards your life...hell, giving you life! If you really believe in something, why not stand up for it. Who are we kidding? It`s called having one`s cake and eating it also. Okay, so it`s none of our business but surely it`s her parents business or does our `best of both worlds` philosophy extend only to becoming eastern when it comes to using one`s parents and western when enjoying freedom? Why do the parents not become western also and tell their children to find their own lives at the age of 18?

You also didn’t answer my `Taliban` question just like you`ve been staying away from all other questions also and answering only selectively.

What happened, Samina? Cat got your tongue?

Umer M.

Umer,

A couple of things, since I`ve been pretty busy, but wanted to at least address a few points in your response:

1. I think that when you write that you dont think about what kinds of relationships are possible between parents and children, you are limiting your understanding of those relationships. You have typified the actions of this young woman as ``selfish`` and a ``betrayal``, when I beleive many Pakistanis and muslims would see this woman`s decisions differently. Actually, I asked my mother what she thought of this case, and she said 1. that this issue is really the family`s biz and noone elses 2. she did NOT see the daughter`s actions as a betrayal to the parents. She was puzzled by the idea of conditional support and conditional love. Her words were, ``its the responsibility of the parents to provide shelter, food and an education for their children``. Mind you, my ma is a fairly devout Muslim. So, you may think about that.

2. I am concerned about your utter lack of imagination when it comes to the narratives and trajectories of immigrant generations. Your friend is not the first and she wont be the last to break with tradition. WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES, THERE IS ALWAYS A REIMAGINING OF IDENTITIES, PATHS AND CHOICES. PAKISTANIS ARE NOT UNIQUE, NOT IS IT MORE TRAGIC THAT THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER ETHNIC YOUNGER GENERATION. You are completely in the wrong when you claim otherwise.

3. Why is it imp. for you to be involved in this? Really, what are your motivations?

4. I am super patient with my students. This is why I like being on Chowk-I can really speak my mind and dont have to worry about hurt feelings...you on the other hand, would benefit from a great deal of reading and researching this issue.

Ref Mullah321 #141

[harimau #140 For once I have learnt something from you.]

Keep an open mins and you will learn at least history from my diatribes.

[The tribal areas have been a nest of car thieves and kidnappers for years and get free electricity from the government as well and on top of that are permitted their own ``jirga`` system that essentially perpetuates the tribal hierarchy.]

Oh well. In India, we have been handing out free electricity to peasants for years now so much so that fully 50% of the electricity generated brings in no revenues, either because it is free to peasants (meaning, rich landlords) or it is stolen. As for your jirga system, there have been an increase of ``kattai panchyats`` in Tamil Nadu which are village assemblies with no legal standing, handing out punishments primarily for caste violations. Sangilikkaruppan won`t admit it but 70 years of the Self Respect Movement has only made sure that the OBCs oppress the Dalits in Tamil Nadu. But Sangilikkaruppan doesn`t mind because he got his 30 pieces of silver with which he bought his plane ticket to the US.

harimau #140 For once I have learnt something from you. I dont know about the Indian governmnet, but pakistani politicians and soldier-kings would certainly benefit from a brain transplant from these long dead Englishman so they could get some common sense and start developing some moral values. They could also benefit from a backbone transplant (those should still be available in the ``gora kabristan``) so they can then implement some changes. As it is, primitive tribal laws and customs and primitive ``religious`` customs that are essentially criminal in nature are allowed to continue unchecked in rural areas. The tribal areas have been a nest of car thieves and kidnappers for years and get free electricity from the government as well and on top of that are permitted their own ``jirga`` system that essentially perpetuates the tribal hierarchy.

Ref Mullah321 #63

[sameerJB #40 I have no problem with outlawing (and enforcing strict punishments) dysfunctional cultural practices. After all, the British (I think it was viceroy curzon) outlawed suttee in India,...]

Make it Lord Bentinck. A couple of decades before Curzon set foot inside India.

[.... and I am sure lots of wives heaved a sigh of relief, and the general public had no problem with it either.]

You are right on that point. History records that Job Charnock, the founder of Calcutta, rescued a Brahmin widow from the funeral pyre in Patna, and married and lived with her. The woman seems to have exhibited no qualms about leaving the burning wood pile or marrying a mlechcha.

re: saminasha
[ ... {have you noticed that in many immigrant famillies the first generation tends towards hard sciences while the second generation is making sense of it through artistic mediums ...]

That`s because math education back home is more focused (not necessarily superior). By the way, I never realized that the field of medicine is artistic...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ajeet,

Sorry man. I thought I had put your name on. My point was that the principles are the same. I didn’t ask for anyone’s opinion, minus Samina’s. The only reason for an intrusion was because everyone considered their input (their actions in effect) to be harmless. I was working on the same principle. I spoke to her about this once and that was the end of it. i considered my action harmless. Coupled with the fact that I know this person, it changes things a bit. But let`s forget about this now. It`s gettin boring.

I agree 100% about packing bags. I think if people want to preserve their ideas 110%, then they’re in for a surprise.

Thanks again,
Umer M.

Hamid,

Yeah mate. I was kinda outta my head yesterday. Must have got pi$$ed smelling your breath:)

Samina,

[I`m going to address your comments re: the situation you had originally described and not go into the rest because it seems tangential to me at best. ]

That could be anything, Samina. Sounds like a cop out to me:). The loooong post may have killed it but I would be interested in your opinion, nevertheless. What are your ideas on infanticides etc? If you had the power to stop them (by that I do not mean provide the females emancipation and improve poverty prospects etc. etc – but just the power to stop infanticides), would you do so and why? Do consider the points I mentioned along with the questions.

Regarding our study, hurrrmm. As far as I’m concerned, the case has been closed for some time and by talking about her again and again, I feel a bit bad discussing her over and over. It gives the impression that I’m dwelling on her so this is the last time I’m going to reply to these types o posts. My intention was top prove that the study was a user. I know I’ve done that.

[1. What outcome do you hope to achieve by informing this young woman`s parents of her personal actions? Why? ]

I had suggested to her that she should inform them. I do not have any plans to inform any of them (and why should I). From my experience (and it sounds a bit wonky but it’s far beyond her years even though we’re pretty much the same age) it was my hope to give her a real picture of the coming events. She could either inform them now or she could inform them later. If she informs them now, they’ll be angry. If she informs them later, they’ll be angry and hurt because they would have felt used. In effect, I know (not feel) that both parties are going to be hurt. My suggestion, I feel, is a compromise where both parties will be hurt as minimally as possible.

[2. Can you live with the principle that an individual`s personal actions are within that person`s human rights as long as they do not physically, emotionally or spiritually control or abuse another person?]

Which person? Me? The parents. She already has passed that boundary. She has been abusing the trust of her parents for 1 year; maybe not physically but emotionally definitely and according to them, spiritually also. As far as I’m concerned, I’m a live and let live fella. My choice to live with Non-Muslims in the Uni when I was being offered to live with these other Muslim chaps is probably a testimony to that. I live with such principles all the time. I consider keeping secrets from such important personalities as parents a universally accepted breach of human rights.

[3. What do you imagine are possible scenarios for this family if you do not inform this young woman`s parents? ]

Samina, you have this very annoying habit of shoving an idea up someone’s ar$e. Are you an Arian? perhaps it is a way to get me to somehow admit that I plan to inform her parents. I do not have any intentions to inform anyone about anything. They are doing at this moment in time what every Desi parent does.
‘Yes, my daughter is the head of IBM, what does your daughter do.’
‘Oh, she’s doing Pharmacy.’
‘Really?’
‘Yes.’
‘Have you found anyone for her?’
‘Had a few lookers. But study said that she wanted some time to think’ etc. etc. etc.
This is my point. The closer and closer she gets to the end of her studies, the more ‘churchaa’ she’s going to get and the more the name of the family is going to come up in social circles and little tea parties. Now’s not the time to get enlightened and start saying that her parents are intellectual savages or start quoting from this and that. Let’s be honest, Desi parents live in big communities where everyone knows everyone. She knows what’s going on at this moment. Her parents are revving the praising engines and this scenario is going to get worse and worse until the climax is reached. God, I can see it now. Remember this, she is definitely a Hindu and she is definitely going to spend most (if not the rest) of her life with her man. She has to tell them sometime but when will that be, now, when the wedding waters are warm or when it’s boiling. My logic is that if she tell them now, it’ll save them a lot of humiliation (because that`s what they ARE going to feel – it’s not about our opinions – it’s what their state of mind will be) whereas if she tells them at the end, they’ll not only feel humiliated but hurt and used also. Let’s change the example? What if you were going to attend your child’s graduation party and you were going to invite all his friends and family round too but your child had long before become a Taliban and had left his secular education? Hmmm? Wouldn’t it be selfish for the child to have you humiliated in front of all your peers. Wouldn’t it be a better idea to discuss this before.

[4. Will you able to live with any consequences that might occur should you tell her parents as well as not? ]

Good one! Like I said, I felt that as a Muslim I owed them a certain amount of responsibility. The outcome was a combination of your human rights bit plus what I consider a responsible action. I feel that I’ve done my bit by talking to her. In my opinion, going any further, (talking to her again, speaking to her parents etc.) is a violation of her privacy. That’s her problem.

[5. Do you often feel responsible for `correcting` the actions of others? ]

If someone stepped on a cigarette butt, you wouldn`t do anything. If their was $hit coming your friend`s way, you would push them out. (400 years later, this`ll be a classic little quote) Come on. That’s not fair. That’d probably be very long. There’s no yes or no answers and who am I to correct anyone. I practise what I do not preach and the conditions I impose upon myself are far harsher than the standard I would see others from. Selfishness, I must admit, does get my goat. Selfish people do pi$$ me off and it’s very possible that my actions may have been influenced by that. To be honest, it’s a combination of a million and one things, isn’t it, but if you have a connection with someone and you care about that individual, wouldn’t you consider it selfish yourself to not want to correct a perceived problem. What I know is that I personally have no problem with anyone talking to me about anything. Yes, sometimes I may feel offended but I think one should be tolerant enough. After all, If someone`s wasting their breath on me, the least I can do is listen to them.


[6. What are the responsibilities of parents to children? Of children to parents? Are the actions of younger South Asian Americans or Britishers any different from any other immigrant group in terms of familial expectations?]

Too long. I am a student, Samina. Be easy on me. I’m not a parent, only a son. And as a child I know that I’d rather suffer myself than impose suffering on anyone else, least of all, my parents.

[7. If your friend was a man, would your reactions be any different? Would it be more negotiable for a young man to date outside the race/religion?]

Again, Samina, you don’t listen. No offence intended but you’d do well to speak to your students once in a while and ask them if they feel you do not listen to them. I’ve told you before that this was not a woman/man issue for me. I truly do not think that this poor woman scenario exists or at least in the magnitudes that we frequently express; not in this day, age and place. It is a convenient slogan for young western Pak girls to pick that line up.

[8. IF you do divulge this woman`s personal life to her parents, will it set a precedent among other South Asians? Are you willing to live with the consequences of that?

You’ve made two mistakes. You’re bringing the feminist issue into this again. Again, I’ll inform you that I had no intentions of ever telling her parents anything. Like I said before, that’s her business. I tried to show her a real picture. That’s all. But I do believe in communities and I do believe in people being responsible for each other up to some extent. I only say this because white people as a whole who are socially more forward and have experienced what Asians and Blacks will experience in the next 10-15 years are now secretly asking for some form a community spirit to be born (my Samaritan talks) .The one thing people should do is develop tolerance to listen to criticism because something god may actually come out of it. His is what practised with her. If someone is not willing to hear an alternative view point which may burst someone’s blind love bubble, then person is at fault more than I am.

9. Have you thought of contacting a South Asian grassroots women’s org and get their feedback on this situation? Why or why not? To what extent is your reluctance to acknowledge gender dynamics limit your understanding of the different aspects of this situation?

Excellent point. I must admit, this never ever came to my mind. Bloody hell, good idea that! Forget gender dynamics, I`m not reluctant to accept them. I know that in this situation they do not exist. Maybe in third world countries but in the civilised world like UK, this is just a victim thing. One needs to understand that both girls and boys have access to various institutions and if someone’s parents are screwing around with you, then all you may do is give them the one-finger salute. I simply used my own experiences and from what I’ve compiled/understood from my voluntary social work. The point is this: majority of Muslim parents would be mighty pi$$ed off with both their daughters and their sons if they changed religion. I don’t think they would discriminate. It’s not what you or I think. It’s what I KNOW they will think.

10. What this it mean for you to be involved in this?
Sorry, Samina, I didn’t understand this last question.

Take care,
Umer M.

harpreeto...
if you like tagRi chicks, i will give up my diet right this instant! LOL ;)
And I agree with you about creative writing courses...they DO stifle a certain amount of individuality. I considered taking some just to help me be more disciplined and focused, but even that, i think i could attempt to do without spending tons of moolah.
xx

ps: to #132

...and it is only a matter of time before he loses it and starts spreading his brand of poison around...and then crawl back under the rocks...

Saminashah,

That was a no-breeder, err no brainer. Most of us practise what we preach. Do you?

Cackle-hens cannot lay eggs but the ability to lay eggs does not automatically make you a breeder either. Someone else is really needed to get the ball rolling and stake half a claim on the egg. There is no Life if the sperm and egg do not dance. A barren woman, whether by design or accident is as desolate as an impotent or celibate man.

I thank Allah that your parents were breeders, otherwise chowk would be so barren & desolate.

Are you an outie or an innie, no breed or half-breed? You can`t have it both ways-- but then you might question, `why not`.

Enjoy your flickering & fluxing sexual orientation at a different time of day everyday. We enjoy the peepshow you present. But like everything gaudy, garish, and gluttonous, that too becomes a grind ;).


Tahmad:
Your intelligence is exceeded only by your comprehension. Let us not belabor the point.

sammi...what is this world coming to?

do you know that sac has his head firmly screwed to his shoulders and acts mischieviously to stir the hornet`s nest here sometimes...go easy on him...

...whereas the frangi hydra jr. is full of bile, venom and illusions of grandeuer and self loathing...and he purposefully crawls out from under the rock to spread venom...

...in the past sac had this frangi hydra by the throat ...if i recall the hydra had boasted about being a world class banker, financier and venture-capitalist...and sac took the clue and would not leave his throat...that is when hydra decided to crawl under...

...t

GZ,
Its too rich, too much the way you and sac are advising me to ``give up my hang ups``....why not accept your status as a breeder? The unthinking, biological imperative to procreate as impelled by human biochemistry... No different from any breeding animal...although all animals and some humans are more noble breeders than some.....I`ve leave you to guess who`s what....and since I have the op, why dont you and sac accept reality as most people know it and put away those tinfoil hats you guys have fashioned in order to receive messages from other solar systems....

GhalibZaman #125 ``Jihad is a lifelong and ongoing duty of every muslim. ``
Who told you that? Jihad (as commonly used to mean violent conflict, not the bs about jihad against cholera an dysentary, as the apologists for the jamaatias like to claim when pressed on this point) is clearly permitted only in case of self-defense in the Quran. And then of course the mullahs will stretch ``self-defense`` to include terrorist acts, when common sense says otherwise.

Reply Harpo #104

``Freaking RSS mutts.
I hate their guts...``

Pomes. I like pomes. That was the start of a very sohna pome, i am thinking.

``...the pope is a Sikh.``

And why not? I think that`s a great idea. (``His Holiness, Santa Singh, here seen passing through Delhi`s Punjabi Bagh Extension II in the Pope Mobile...``)

Reply dost-mittar #80

``Can she also write in the contract that her son will have the right to - how to put it! - keep all his body parts whole? ``

Different person, different contract. Sorry.

#123
mama musalmaani,

Jihad is a lifelong and ongoing duty of every muslim. From the advent of Islam It has never stopped and it never will. If it is not by Saif then it is by Qalam (or keyboard ).
Most likely you yourself are a scion of such an illustrious and cherished heritage---the Imams. The radicalism that you eschew has been a hallmark of such a background. It is no accident of fate that each & every noble sage (pir faquirs) who waged jihad against the ``muslim`` tyrants and are buried throughout muslim lands happened to be from ``the family``.

But then even Noah`s son went astray.

I have strong objection to use the term /heterosexual . It is the homo who is the odd man/woman out. One never uses the word uni-cultural for a place where majority is the same race/color or that you identify only thieves not declare that so many stayed honest today (maybe in homo-rule , that too will happen) . It is the odd, unusual, dramatic, shocking, vulgar, and violent which makes the news & identity, never the normal and regular (please do not give any spin-doctoring trash here on behalf of such people---sinners & deviants can only ask for forgiveness & clemency from Allah).

PS: Please give up your ill-founded hang-ups. Women with hangups & intellectualism are not a pretty sight anyway. Their hair start looking like steel-wool even at a younger age----the effect of stannic acid & caffiene.

re: saminashah

{have you noticed that in many immigrant famillies the first generation tends towards hard sciences while the second generation is making sense of it through artistic mediums}

..so basically the first generation will have to fund the second generation, many of whom could have trouble finding financially stable jobs...

Umer,

I`m going to address your comments re: the situation you had originally described and not go into the rest because it seems tangential to me at best.

You`ve asked yourself what your responsibility is. I think thats a great question. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. What outcome do you hope to achieve by informing this young woman`s parents of her personal actions? Why?

2. Can you live with the principle that an individual`s personal actions are within that person`s human rights as long as they do not physically, emotionally or spiritually control or abuse another person?

3. What do you imagine are possible scenarios for this family if you do not inform this young woman`s parents?

4. Will you able to live with any consequences that might occur should you tell her parents as well as not?

5. Do you often feel responsible for `correcting` the actions of others?

6. What are the responsibilties of parents to children? Of children to parents? Are the actions of younger South Asian Americans or Britishers any different from any other immigrant group in terms of familial expectations?

7. If your friend was a man, would your reactions be any different? Would it be more negotiable for a young man to date outside the race/religion?

8. IF you do divulge this woman`s personal life to her parents, will it set a precedent among other South Asians? Are you willing to live with the consequences of that?

9. Have you thought of contacting a South Asian grassroots womens org and get their feedback on this situation? Why or why not? To what extent is your reluctance to acknowledge gender dynamics limit your understanding of the different aspects of this situation?

10. What this it mean for you to be involved in this?

Btw, Umer, you prolly wont like this, but the aunties and my ma say that the American husbands that their daughters marry are more soliticitous and supportive of the parents than desi son in laws...

Hamid,
The problem with all immigrant communities is that we think we`re all so damned special and different from everyone else....like God spoke to no-one else...have you noticed that in many immigrant famillies the first generation tends towards hard sciences while the second generation is making sense of it through artistic mediums? I often feel like I have to haul out Khalil Gibran`s poem `Children` now and again...hmmm...maybe I should....

Children

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said,
``Speak to us of Children.``
And he said: Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life`s longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
Which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
And He bends you with His might that
His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer`s hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies,
So He loves also the bow that is stable. ``

-Khalil Gibran

GZ

Hows the Jihad going? Is it coming to a theater near us soon?

Congratulations on burying your hate speech so effectively that Chowkies can only get an inkling of your miserable Islamicist rant...for the benefit of Mr. Poindexter, I`m certain....what happened to that unrepetant mouth foamer who inflicted his ``Englisyphilitic`` pathologies on us?

The mask will eventually melt off, wont it?

Umer

Cheers for the tip. The long-lost-burnt-faced-Sikh-father-shocker sounds intruiging actually I may just borrow it from the library...I am too skint to buy books these days.

........................................................................................................

cheese-on-toast

I will take a look at it! But I am generally allergic to supernatural kind of magic realism with feminist slant kind of books...but I am open to anything really so. I will try

:)

........................................................................................................

Noorie,

I will let you know how I get on with the book, she looks like a real cutie on the cover. In fact I have decided to make it the next book I read. I like stories written from the point of view of children.

So do you think creative writing courses are worthwhile?? I have my doubts...what do you think...I think they can stifle individuality...I mean how do you teach somebody to write?? I dont see the point in them.

ps: I like tagRi chicks

;)

-h-

harpreet
iv only red mistress of the spices by her so cant say about the other books..its a really fun read...not the kind youd die of pleasure reading but a good book nevertheless..i loved how its divided into all these sections...pepper, red chilli, tumeric! the magic in the book is the supernatural things the spicelady does..its like an adults magic faraway tree...if u read it, do a review for us
cheers

Umer #112

Boy, that was a looong post! My first complaint, I mean the second, is that I did not see my name in the looong thank you list.

Kidding aside, your comparing of other posters comments on you post to your unasked for advice to the girl is far fetched to say the least. This is a public forum and when you post something, the assupmtion is - heck you are inviting - that other people will comment. On the other side you intruded on something that this girl is trying to keep very private.

As far as the desi parents and their kids in western society, here is my two cents worth. If you bring them into such an open society where they are going to be exposed to all kinds of influences then you can not blame them if they do not toe the line a 100%. If you can not take this then you should have stayed in your neck of the woods. The most you can do is teach them your values when they are growing up and then hope for the best. Trying to force your views on them or playing the blame game will only widen the gulf and you will risk loosing them altogether. Also USA is called the melting pot for good reason. Even if you can somehow control your children, the next generation will do their own thing. If you cannot accept this, pack your bags and head home.

hamidm2#17

You quoted the statistics from UK, and you may be right, but my experience in the USA is, that kids from desi families do better in academics than the rest of the population.

Pankaj, Banjaara

Jeetay raho aur phulo phoolo.

Since you have been good kids and are using chaste urdu, you deserve a Qand-e-mukarrar (Candy----arabic origin-- once again)

Khamoshee kuchh, bole rahee hai.
bhaid anokhay, khole rahee hai.
punkh pakharoo soach mein gum hain,
Pairr kharray hain, sheesh jhukhaai

Dhundlay dhundhlay, musst nazaaray.
urrtay badal, murrtay dhaaray.
chhup kay nazar sey, jaanay yeh kis nay,
rang brangay khail racha aye

koyee bhee uss kaa bhaid naa jaanay.
eik haqueequat , laakh fasaanay.
Eik hee jalvaa, shaam savairay,
Bhais badal kar, saamnay aayay.

PS: For proud, practising and true to your faith hindus like you---this should not be difficult to understand. Subb Raam kee Leela hai sahibaan aur maya kee kalap aur chhul bul hai.

Banjaara jee

``Khoob parda hai ke chilman se lage baithe haiN
saaf chupte bhi nahiN ,saamne aate bhi nahiN
``

Wah, wah, kyaa khoob kahee hai :-). Farangi Kush Sahab, ab to bhed khol dijiye.

to: saminashah

cc: umer

...... please do us all a favor and summarize umer`s rambling lamentation so that we know what the heck he is talking about ....... personally, as the proud father of two ``western`` paki kids (as umar calls them) i don`t think they owe me a darn thing ............ as long as they don`t join the msa and start behaving like foolish bedouins, i am happy ............i hear this self serving crap about the virtues of paki parents all the time - trust me, it is sheer nonsense ............ we are no better than john smith or ram das down the road .............. highly overrated, i must say - after all how many nobel prize winners or olympic gold medalists have we produced ............. as a matter of fact, if we go by the statistics from the uk, we have managed to produce the largest underclass of unemployable idiots in that country .......... dedicated parents - nonsense! ............ our parenting style might be different but, contrary to popular superstition, it is not better ............ it might make us feel better about ourself but it is pure horse puckey ........most of us spend a lot of time parenting and ``taking care`` of our children because we don`t have anything better to do with our miserable lives and so spend our time trying to make our kids lives miserable ..........our parenting style is suffocating, selfish, ignorant, authoritative, condescending and extremely harmful to the well being of our children .............

#115

Khoob parda hai ke chilman se lage baithe haiN
saaf chupte bhi nahiN ,saamne aate bhi nahiN

Umer Murtaza,

My reply, though addressed to you specifically, was more directed towards the ones who are giving us an impression that they have just discovered english language & culture. None of these poor souls are born in the west. Most of those who were born & brought-up outside India & Pakistan have been to madressas & are regular masjid attendees. These brilliant young people have never been under a colonial yoke. They exercise their freedom here to assert their muslim pride rather than be apolegetic about it. You yourself are such kind and I am happy that you clarified your stance here ,for others` sake. I always was confident that being a muslim you are neither enamoured or impressed by the mammas, aunties, broom-carriers, or cackle-hens . In the present day and age they are nothing but an echo of the eons mentioned in the holy Qura`an. I am sure when their western masters decide they will be justifying other yet to be outed-taboos. Maybe they are itching right now at the appropriate places for the clandestine trysts.

Keep hammering and chipping away at kufr. It is important to reduce them to the embarrassment it is to humanity and bring it to its senses. Sometimes illusions, delusions, and pretentiousness etches a lasting profile of self-aggarandisement in its mind & it considers itself modern & advanced . Kufr can never ever be modern or advanced. It is rooted in antiquity which can`t even be traced anymore.

re: umer

{Saxena had proposed that parents are to blame. }

...some desi parents are to blame when they force their daughters to marry whom they (the parents) want and when they want...they are to blame when they decide daughters don`t deserve as good an education as sons...i`m surprised you disagree with my statement and approve of such practices...(see, i can twist statements out of context just as well as you can :) )...

{Desi parents are, in my opinion, the best parents (if not one of the best). }

...some are the best in all respects...some are the best in some respects, but the worst in others...why make blanket declarations?....

{As far as Ajeet’s comment on a girl converting to Islam is concerned (sorry Saxena – you’ll have to try again sometime later), I’d have exactly the same attitude.}

...ok, but the point was a general one, made considering that many muslims and to some extent christians pursue and revel in conversions...can`t deny that...

Harpreet,

Chitra B. is crap!!! I`ve read her sister of her heart whatever and let me spoil it for you by saying that the Driver Sikh man with a burnt face is infact Anjou`s long last father whom she never knew about. How cheesy and corney can you get? Saying that, her language can get very yummy sometimes.

But I`ve just saved you 7 pounds and that`s what matters. Go treat yourself to a kebab or buy Ben Eltons`s Dead Famous. Not Magnum opus material but very funny nevertheless.

Umer M.

Aw come on, guys. That’s not fair. All I did was swear and shout at her and drag the b!tch by her hair and when she didn’t beg for mercy, I dragged her into the fields where my goons continued to abuse her. You what? No!!! Of course not. All I said was that she was destined to hell and if she didn’t revert back immediately and marry the holy book, I’d 6.5mms into her.

Before you carry on any further, this post is very long but there is logic to it. You just need the stamina. Alternatively, go towards the end and you’ll know where I’m coming from but I suggest you start from the top.

Talk about melodrama coming from some of you characters. Sridhar, I haven’t studied Hinduism yet and I have a dual stance on the religion. 1) From what I’ve acquired from my surroundings/people/the telly/India. And 2) from what I’ve actually read/learnt. I prefer to say that I know nothing on the religion.

Now, let me clarify a few things. The aim of the post was to demonstrate the user mentality of many of the Western Pakistani children. I’m refraining from talking about Indians. Saxena had proposed that parents are to blame. I disagree with that idea almost entirely because I think it stinks of victim mentality. This is usually espoused by sad, confused youths (not you Saxena-don’t take it personally) who become Eastern when it comes to taking cash from their parents and Western when it comes to freedom to parté. Desi parents are, in my opinion, the best parents (if not one of the best). Over the last decade at least, they have alloyed their innate generosity with White parents’ ability to demonstrate a greater degree of understanding and care. How selfish is it to say that it’s one’s parents fault when the traditional generation (the first generation) of parents were busting their a$$es trying to make a future for their enlightened children. Granted, I agree with Sameer that this does not equate the older generation parents to being gods but the basic respect and tolerance and understanding by the younger generation of Pakistanis for what their parents went through is not there.

One disagreement and ones parents become the biggest bunch of dogs. I for one have never seen this in whites or Indians. Also, do you not think that if someone’s sweating for you, then surely they deserve something in return, like the truth. Why is Sameer giving us the example of the Native Indians regarding the father and child? Why is he being selective? This individual (our study case) is using her parents and when she is in a position of absolute comfort, will she reveal the details. It’s happened a million times before. This person is thinking of herself first and her parents later.

There are two big mistakes being made by people. One: that I am delving into her spiritual business. Two: I am flexing my power dynamics. Ajeet, my housemate who I’m very close to asked me the same question, saying he would be upset if someone had defected from Sikhism. He was surprised to hear that I didn’t have any emotional expressions. Neither bad, neither good. Surprised? Yes. Bruised ego? Definitely! Being one of the people who’s got a half-decent relationship with her and knowing about the ins and outs of everyone else’s life, I was a bit offended to not be the first to know. As far as Ajeet’s comment on a girl converting to Islam is concerned (sorry Saxena – you’ll have to try again sometime later), I’d have exactly the same attitude. Hell, I’ve probably practised something along those lines before anyway. I agree with Dost that to change your religion for your amour, be it Hindu Sikh, Muslim Christianity, is sad. Hindu, Sikh and Muslim parents from Desiland are just as good/bad towards each other when it comes to conversions etc. Much like I offered our case study any possible support I could provide, I would have done exactly the same for the Hindu convertee girl. Remember, I didn’t discuss anything religious with her. In fact, if I can remember correctly, I said something along the lines of wishing her the best of luck on her new life. Yes Ghlalib, I was recently reading Chapter The Cow, and during one of the early ruku I read a few verses about Jews, Christians, Sabiens etc. not having any problems as long as they believed in one God, the judgement day and did good deeds etc. etc. For me, the snag was one of selfishness.

Samina has bought in her usual feminism flavour into it. Give up, girl. This female victim mentality is just as much rubbish as the parental victim mentality. No one’s buying it. Yes in the olden days. Not in this day and age. Girls are just as bad as the lads in this respect. In fact it’s beginning to go the opposite way because females are naturally assumed to be the more innocent of the two sexes.

As for the comment regarding her education etc. etc. what makes you think that I do not care? Did I inform her parents? Had I been the gandasa wielding Sultan Rahi that I’m being portrayed as, wouldn’t I have done just that? Have I informed anyone else, knowing that it may lead to a possible break up? No. What does it say then? Yes, I can see where someone’s coming from when someone say that it’s none of my business but surely the other party must develop some tolerance, if not for anything, then at least to hear some futile advice.

I’m surprised as to why Sameer says I want her to be disowned. Shameful parents or not, I doubt they share his enlightenment. He is failing to step outside his mental circle. Whereas it’s lovely for digital zeroes and ones to support her, I have basically tried to show a love sick girl the reality and presented an option. You must trust me when I say that I know her parents and I know her and I’ve known how and where this relationship was heading towards for a very long time. I therefore feel able to offer her an opinion. I don’t think many people realise but being used will hurt her parents but being informed will pi$$ them off. There is s difference between the two. I would think that it’s easier for one to recover from anger but not from hurt.

Samina, if it burns you to hear of the sex of the study , then I’ll be more than happy to give you a few male examples. Trust me, they’re all just as bad as each other. I simply gave this example because it’s a little unusual.

I agree with Ghalib. I did act on hearsay but I would like to think that I conducted myself in a harmless manner and that I was thinking of both her interest as well as her parents.

This is what I mean by what Saxena and Semipreciousme have been saying about the parents. They have become the bad guys and religion and sexism have been added from nowhere in order to make the study look the victim whereas she is the person who is being dishonest with her parents.

At this point, I must ask you to form an answer. If you could, would you ban infanticides, knowing that just banning infanticide on its own will not solve the girls’ problems. Yes or no?

Now, to move this argument forward. About the butting out business: one of the things which I did think about was what I wrote in my first post - that I felt partially responsible towards her parents. This scares me somewhat because where exactly does this responsibility stop? And why should I be responsible for anyone? Who asked for my opinion anyway? Right? For me, this responsibility ended with me supposedly showing her reality in the next xyz years time. Where does it stop for others? And if I am being told to be butted out of her business, why have all of you - minus Samina – replied to me? Why the need to feel responsible for correcting me? Wasn’t I also trying to correct her? Remember, I specifically asked Samina to reply; Not you. Haven’t you done exactly what I did with the study?

In both your case and mine, we most probably considered our actions harmless and so we intervened. What I didn’t do was go any further much like what most of you haven’t done is turn offensive.

Now, let us tie Bina’s (I’m so sorry for this) article into this. Judging by your replies, you all detest infanticides. If you had the chance, would you stop this practise or would you respect the ideas of these people and let them be? Understand this, just like many of you realised that I know more about the situation than I have written (and so you refrained from going offensive) and just like I didn’t go any further (because there’s so much more to this whole thing) would you do the same thing with infanticides. After all, do you know the situation under which these people commit these acts. Isn’t it true that they know their state of affairs (dowry, unequal distribution of strength, patriarchal society) better than we do so what right do we have to intervene?

We all say that we respect people’s beliefs. To you, your religion. To me, mine. Religions are schools of thought and beliefs. According to some interactors, I’m not respecting my study’s beliefs. The people who commit infanticides are following a different school of thought but it has its own set of logic. Why should we not respect their set of beliefs?

Before we get any obvious answers, remember that abortions are rife in the civilised world. Most, if not all of us, agree with abortions up to some extent. Are abortions and infanticides and feticides the same? If not, why not? If they are, why is one practise palatable and the other indelible. A woman has the right to abort her child because the child is a part of her body. Not fully true. The child is 50% mother and 50% father. In feticides, the child is being ‘killed’ by people who share the child. Also, abortion is okay because a baby is not fully developed. If we extend that argument, then surely a mother has the license to kill anyone between the ages of birth to puberty because until then, no one is full developed. Surely, this should sanctify infanticides and feticides also.

What is the difference between aborting a child because you cannot give him/her a good life (and this is a line I’ve heard from hundreds of women from the civilised world during my phone conversations with them) and terminating the life of a child because you cannot give her a good life (because she is a girl in an ultra – patriarchal society? Why am I describing one as an abortion and the other as termination?

If according to you, I have no right to enter into her business, even though I consider this good advice, what gives you the right to enter into the business of these people? What makes you think that you are doing something right? And before I get one of those answers, if we feel the need to be responsible towards the dead children because we’re human, then can I not use the same argument for myself as well, i.e. her parents and I are Muslims and I felt the need to be responsible towards them.

When did these people’s life become our business? I believe we best look to our beliefs to our Higher Power and let everyone have their own beliefs to theirs?

Sridhar, Sameer, Teunkens, Saxena, Hamid, Ghalib, Snow, Harpreet, Cheese, Studbaker, even you godot…thanking you all. Since y’all butted in :), I’ll be looking forward to your answers. Samina, my post isn’t exactly a scientific piece of work but sometimes one has to travel a journey. So answer if you want to.

Best wishes:)
Umer M.

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Harpreeto...
I haven`t read anything of Kureishi`s, since the screenplays for MBL and Sammy and Rosie...(saw the movies first, of course).
Suneeta is a cutie...but then my definition of cutie differs from most...thin like a stick, much to this tagRi chick`s i.e my envy...last I heard she was in a Creative Writing program at Sarah Lawrence College. She must be done with that by now. I liked what she read of `Homework.` Very few people showed up for the reading...and no desis. Perhaps the desis here are more into literature on software and computers, than the literature I like...`nyways. At the end I asked her `bout writing from the point-de-vue of a child, or young adult, because that`s how the bulk of the novel is narrated, I think. I was working on some of my own pieces from a child`s point-of-view and asked for suggestions. She was quite helpful. I really would like to know what you think...especially in terms of the age of the daughter, and how the story is narrated! Haven`t bought it myself, yet.
xx

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``Women in west not only dress like men but hardly of any use for men either !!!!!!!!``

Talk about yourself mate!!!!!!

hey when did you get outta jail? missed you tho.now behave.

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Zafar;

{{Re: modern technology being harnessed in the service of the midieval, this just confirms my basic dislike of people. They are a bad lot, better to avoid them}}

- Freaking RSS mutts. I hate their guts for what they have done. Maybe meeting your friends brought out the above?? Either way I dont believe you feel that way for a second. You are about as much a misanthropist as the pope is a Sikh.

Noorie,

Yep it is called ``Homework`` although I havent started reading it yet. I just picked it up in a thrift store for one pound and I always buy books written by Indians. I will definately let you know how I find it is she a cutie in real life?? When I met Hanif Kurieshi he was a real cool dude to me...he probably was just having a bad day (did you read his last few novels depressing or what..he just has released a new collection of short stories called ``The Body``...)

-h-









74 by nooralain on November 18, 2002 10:31am PT
Harpreeto...
is the Suneeta Peres da Costa novel you`re reading, `Housekeeping` or something like that? I remember going to a reading of hers, and being able to meet with her and speak with her for a while. Much more amiable than Hanif Kureishi was, but then perhaps I caught him on a bad day!!!! What d`you think of her writing?
xx


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#73 by ZafarA on November 18, 2002 10:31am PT
Reply Harpo

Yes - India is great, tho just met some very nervous friends visiting Delhi from Ahmedabad, so I guess I must admit that it isn`t all unalloyed joy and light. Let me know how the book goes. .

Zafar;

{{Re: modern technology being harnessed in the service of the midieval, this just confirms my basic dislike of people. They are a bad lot, better to avoid them}}

- Freaking RSS mutts. I hate their guts for what they have done. Maybe meeting your friends brought out the above?? Either way I dont believe you feel that way for a second. You are about as much a misanthropist as the pope is a Sikh.

Noorie,

Yep it is called ``Homework`` although I havent started reading it yet. I just picked it up in a thrift store for one pound and I always buy books written by Indians. I will definately let you know how I find it is she a cutie in real life?? When I met Hanif Kurieshi he was a real cool dude to me...he probably was just having a bad day (did you read his last few novels depressing or what..he just has released a new collection of short stories called ``The Body``...)

-h-

cheese-burger

{{have u red `the mistress of spices` by chitra divakaruni?}}

- Havent read any of her stuff because I heard it was really syrupy and sickly sweet??

But I read a poem she wrote about the Punjabis in Yuba City somewhere, it was alright

-h-

Sameer

I have got to say, American beer stinks big time. Have you tried Kronenburg 1664?? A French lager that hits the spot everytime, sharp and crisp.

Have you tried Newcastle Brown Ale or any English Bitters like Boddingtons?? They are very smooth and sweet. When my Grandfather first came to England thats all his generation drank after long shifts in the factory...and this stuff called Mild, which is hard to get.

Godot

I like your attitude man, microbrewery sounds good!

:)

-h-

godot #90 Looks like I got that second post in just in time. whew!!! (Actually the first one was not meant to read the way it read too).
I am glad you think I am a nice guy, though. Incidentally, i recall hearing these words twice before: once when i got stood up by a young female thingy, which switched the sun off for me for a day; and once, many years later, by a chappie who then proceeded to cut up what I had been a fast-moving career - ``heart of gold`` is what i was told both times, very sweetly, before the dagger was inserted between the ribs. So, nice to hear these words, but the psychological association sez ``you lose!``.
:-)

Samina (92),

``Beta``? No wonder! Come to think of it, you do sound like my mother: explain yourself, young man. It`s Risky Business, Ammi.

Leave that poor shaitan alone, will you. He`s taken too much crap already. Everyone faults him for their own shortcomings. No wonder he gets so stoned in Mecca of all places. He needs it. Who wouldn`t?

Jay#96
For your information, Indian Muslims have better 1. infant mortality 2. child mortality 3. sex ratio statistics than Indian Hindus.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2002/11/10/stories/
2002111000610300.htm

Religion and fertility behaviour: canards and facts

MALE FEMALE ISSUES.

i AM SURPRISED THAT NO ONE MENTIONED THE SITUATION IN OTHER SOCIETIES. iN THAILAND, it is the responsibility of the youngest female to look after the parents. It is women who take part in economic activities, men are in the military and farm work as per thervada budhist traditions. Females are the ones well looked after, no dowry in this system, it is men who has to come up with the money.

Moral of the story is that it is not economics that inflence this, it the social values. Punjabis might have higher income, the influence of the islamic traditions of killings that lead to the killings of the female.

Zafar #73
If anyone wants insights about huge Haryanvis wrapped in thick blankets and lost to the world on a DTC bus when my stop is next, I am the person. For every other demographic, I beg to be excused :).

--
For anyone interested, from the 2001 census results at www.censusindia.net/results/resultsmain.html

Arranged in increasing order of sex ratio(females/1000 males) for 0-6 age group and with the smaller union territories left out:

(Delhi`s population is almost 14 million people compared to Haryana`s 21 million).

State.....Sex ratio(0-6)....Sex ratio (all ages).....Literacy Overall/M/F
Punjab......793..................874..........................68, 75,63
Haryana....820..................861..........................69, 79,56
Delhi.........865..................821..........................81, 87,75
Gujarat..... 878.................921..........................69, 80 , 58

Uttar Pradesh.....916..........898..........................57, 70, 43

Maharashtra.......917..........922..........................77,86,67
Madhya Pradesh.929..........920..........................64,76,50
J&K............937..................900.........................54, 65, 41
Bihar..........938..................921.........................47, 60, 33
Tamil Nadu..939..................986........................73, 82, 64

Samina: Only good beers are all European. Irish, Dutch and German.
When is Ramzan starting? According to my memory shaitan is caged durng this month. Is 12-head going to be caged?..........
I am just kidding. I know Ramzan is ongoing for a while. During Ramzan I only drink after reading a special prayer: allah humma inni laka sumto wa beka aamanto wa ala rizkeka aftarakto.......Glenfiddich....Ameen!
Three Glenfiddich drinks and the meaning of life, wife and strife pulverize, maya turns volatile and 80 proof good stuff dissolving all the bad karma, dharma, shariaat, tareeqat on its way to kidneys. One becomes privy to an additional dimentional formerly remained exclusive to chosen ones. One more drink induces congnition; for revelation smoking or chewing certain alkaloids containing leaves, roots, bark or seeds is a must!

Rsax,

I dunno...my bro thinks they are solid (...now shut up boys and girls, Samina Bagi will NOT be incriminating herself tonight...)...they support local breweries, dont they?

Godot,
Why is so important that you get buzzed? During Ramzan, no less...Beta....is it Chowk? Has Chowk driven you to the shaitan`s sharab?

rsaxena:

“...what about parents?...aren`t they culprits too?...controlling and sexist desi parents with 15th-century mindsets need to be put in their place as well, don`t they?...”


…def. so…this is exactly the archaic mindset that women here finally need to start taking a stand against…



samina #47:


…one of the most idiotic faq here is whether you’re a sunni or shia…there’s so much prejudice prevailing against each group that it’s amazing…i’ve heard the most ‘educated’ of ppl pass such disparaging remarks against shias that it’s not even funny…

re:#58 by harimau
I agree with your statement about some kerala marriages. I used to have a good friend when i was doing my post-graduate study in Madras. This guy was from Kerala. He once told me he spent something like 2000 rupees for his marriage. He performed it in a temple and invited only close friends. Keralites seem to be made of a different stuff than rest of the southies!
sridhar

re: saminashah

{Get something microbrewed at least}

...don`t tell me, do you really enjoy microbrewed beer? :)...

Samina (82),

What desi ``crack``? I was just stating a fact I see around. Self pity? Go read my writer`s bio. You think that reflects an individual mired in self pity?

No one is asking you to agree with me, btw. Heck, what makes you think I would want you to agree with me? Well, I know both you and I think too much of ourselves. But get this: I`m right.

The idea is to get buzzed. Bud, Miller, Coors, they all are the same pisswater. Who cares after four of those suckers. BTW, I have this lovely microbrewery around where I live. Due to its being overly priced, it`s good for only occasionally. Goes down the toilet quicker than you can say m-i-c-r-o. Ramzan? Yeah, right!!!


Tahmed32 (79, 88),

I wrote a not-so-amusing post to you in response to your post #79. Then I saw your post #88 and dropped my post. Good thing I saw your good post just in time. As you might have noticed, I have got too many enemies at Chowk already. I don`t want another one. Not someone like you. You are a really nice guy.

tahmed,
I don`t know the girl, I don`t know the guy... and I really don`t know what their motivations are. I`m just guessing and playing detective like I like to do... maybe I`m right, but maybe someone has a better more logical reason or the parties involved know something we don`t, so I left it at that.
As for talking out of my ass, I do that alot and there is no embarrasment or shame... it sometimes helps to get to the bottom of things (no pun intended) when you shoot in the dark.

snow #86 Using the right side of your brain (the emotional part) you wrote: ``I believe the girl has got self-esteem problems if she`s embracing Hinduism for some guy``. Then the left side of the brain (the logical part) felt embarrassed by what the right side said, and you wrote: ``I was just talking out of my ass ``
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....Do we have a problem with coexistence going on here?

godot: your remark about desi boys attracting dogs and pigs only was quite funny actually.

dost-mittar,
I don`t agree either... but I`m just hypothesizing/guessing, and in no way am I rationalizing their decisions. I believe the girl has got self-esteem problems if she`s embracing Hinduism for some guy- even if she doesn`t give 2 hoots for Islam.

This is all of course if the hypotheses is correct, because after all I was just talking out of my ass and don`t know what the true situation is.

Regards.

...there seems to be emerging evidence, at least in the US, that educated desi guys and girls should bid each other adieu...neither group likes the other much...so why force it...there are tons of other interesting people around, so why fuss over desi pigs and piglets...

Godot,
Really...what is that desi guy crack s`pposed to mean? Are we to agree with your angry self pity? And Bud`s pisswater. Get something microbrewed at least, if you must, during Ramzan...

Umer
Yes, do that. Lots and lots of greens.

And dont worry. We`ll be gentle.

(Goddess help me, I couldnt resist.)

Good people,

I shall clarify a few points, unblinker some, thank others and hope to forward the discussion tomorrow. Right now, I`ve just come one step closer to entering the Big Boys league. Way too excited right now.

To all who responded,
tomorrow.
Umer M.

Samina.
Yes, mum. And I promisr to eat all my greens.

godot #76 you write ``desi guys, being pure desis, can’t attract anything other than pigs and dogs. ``
I assume you are speaking for yourself.

sac (71),

“I see that as a growing trend. ABCD guys are increasingly importing wives from the motherland and the ABCD gals are living it up with the non-believers.”

That’s because desi girls, being girls, can attract guys, desis or non-desis, without much of a problem; whereas desi guys, being pure desis, can’t attract anything other than pigs and dogs.


Samina (65),

Easy tigress! I’m just watching the show and hoping there’s a men’s room nearby...you know with those Buds and all...BTW, I don’t wave doputtas...baseball bat maybe...


UmerMurtaza (59),

Extrapolations you said? Well, friend, extrapolations, assumptions, and make-believes are the order of the day at Chowk.


hamidm (54),

Hope you realize that a lot of people are culturally one thing and deep inside something else. This has been going on from time immemorial and will continue perhaps forever. You are in no way unique or different...potato from outside, onion from inside...brings tears to my eyes...

hoopreeyta
have u red `the mistress of spices` by chitra divakaruni?

umer
what audacity..i quite like...ure like an aunty...if this same scenario was to have occured with a close friend, itd be fine..your concern for the person wouldve been supreme but this, was so not nice..id have smacked u so bloody hard if i were in the girls place

cheeers matey!

samina #65

IMHO, there r two views regarding making ur opinions known:

1. Make them ambigous, and leave some mystery for others to figure out, and take some advantage of it.
2. Take a stand on ut choices (blashphemey, conversion, sexual orientation, etc.) so that the discrminated lot would be defended.


Both choices have adv/disadv. It all depends on how much stamina u have for leading the march of change, and how much u think ur private info is completely irrelevelent in this matter.

For instance: for a muslim woman, marrying an agnostic/atheist is pure adultery. For an agnostic person, marrying her has nothing to do with religious differences. Now, should he come clean? To him, his religion is irrelevelent. But at the same time, he does not want to be discrminated against on the basis of his beliefs. Is his lie a harmless lie?

There r difeferent priorities and choices for each individual. No one absolute answer.

samina #65
Such people are found all over the subcontinent. The best answer depends on who is asking. There is a harmless type of questioner who is genuinely thirsty for information about a world complex beyond his/her understanding. To this type, I would think, give a simple straightforward answer. Such people are usually happy to tell you all the details of their own life in exchange. Then there is also an activist-type of opinionated so-and-so who is being nosy, to them, better be merciless :).

Reply RSax, Ajeet

{Change this story a little bit. What if the boy is muslim and he is marrying a hindu girl, who is converting to Islam. What would be you advice to her? what would be your advice to the boy? }

I would advise the woman to have the right to do fitna written into her marriage contract, also the right to intitiate divorce at will. I think she should have the bit about being paid for housework and breastfeeding spelled out too. Oh, and also she should get serious about meher - ie 40 rupees shouldn`t cut it.

``...that`s a familiar story...we all know how that cookie crumbles, so no need to ask...``

RSax? I think you should be more optimistic about this yaar.

Reply Harpo

Yes - India is great, tho just met some very nervous friends visiting Delhi from Ahmedabad, so I guess I must admit that it isn`t all unalloyed joy and light. Let me know how the book goes. Re: modern technology being harnessed in the service of the midieval, this just confirms my basic dislike of people. They are a bad lot, better to avoid them.


Reply Sadna, Rohini

Rohini, I had a similar opinion of Haryana - so progressive, all villages electrified, etc. etc. So is the country regressing in some ways?? I think, however, that it`s hard to draw conclusions about a state which is so demographically affected by Delhi. Meaning, my parents live in a suburb of Delhi which is in Haryana as far as the statistics go, but not in any real sociological sense. So is it Delhi which skews the ratio, or is it the gaons? Sadna, your insight into Haryanvi culture would be invaluable here...

Harpreeto...
is the Suneeta Peres da Costa novel you`re reading, `Housekeeping` or something like that? I remember going to a reading of hers, and being able to meet with her and speak with her for a while. Much more amiable than Hanif Kureishi was, but then perhaps I caught him on a bad day!!!! What d`you think of her writing?
xx

Bina:

Nice article. The imbalance in male/female ratio is not solely an Indian phenomenon. The Chinese are way ahead of the game. In due course nature has a way of asserting itself. Ironically, biological differences that allow 80 year old men to have babies works against women. But thats another discussion altogether.

Umer:

Let me tell you my experience. I went to five desi weddings this summer and in 4 out of 5 cases the bride with Pakistani parents was marrying non-Muslims(a couple of grooms had converted). I don`t know about England but in America I see that as a growing trend. ABCD guys are increasingly importing wives from the motherland and the ABCD gals are living it up with the non-believers. Now wouldn`t that make for an interesting story a couple of generations later?

later
-sac

Umer

Intermarriage between Hindu, Muslim and Sikhs in England is quite common these days. Its happened in my family. If it bothers you, just dont think about it. Because what you cannot do anything about will literally do your head in if you dwell on it too much.

-h-

Another insightful piece from Bina Shah.
This iceberg of a topic needs as much attention as possible.

Ras

Zafar - Haryanvis sure have changed ... I`m one of 4 girls (and no brothers) and our village is in Jhajjar district ... has Delhi`s suburban crawl already got that far ?! Too bad ... I always thought that women in Haryana were more independent and more valued that say Rajasthan or UP !! Aren`t things different in the South though because of the (eroding!) matriarchal system there ?

Umer,
Interesting story. I wouldn`t have said a thing to the girl becoz its none of my business. Also who knows what her motivations are ? She may really identify with hinduism, or she may really be head over heels over the guy and his sticking point may be that she become hindu and she`s that much in love with him that she doesn`t care... maybe in the end she`s not sure and she`s going with the flow and is leaving her options open i.e. if things don`t work out with the guy later on, she doesn`t have to stay a Hindu because she told everyone including her parents about it...

Because in the end its about the guy not about Hinduism or Islam, IMO.

tata

Zafar

I am sooooo jealous of you being in India. I hope you are having a great time. I just picked up a novel by a young writer called Suneeta Peres Da Costa who is Australian Goan telling the story about Ozzie Desis life, I will let you know about it later.

You said

{{we tend to blame a lot of things on poverty (extremism, sexism, communal violence, casteism, blahblahblah) when the real sources are a lot less comfortable to examine.}}

Zafar, you are right. The fact of the matter is that when a generally backward populace, that cling to backward, feudalistic, misogynistic attitudes achieve prosperity, the technology they exploit as a fruit of that prosperity is used in accordance with their unexamined, backward mindset. Hence gender screening clinics for the prosperous Punjabi/Haryanvis. Everything is out of sync. Prosperity may vanquish demons and backwardness through education and material advance but it is not a smooth process of A following B following C. This is a stark example of what a backward sexist culture does when modernity offers it choices...large scale female infanticide. It is time these things were examined honestly, like you say.

take care mate

(Aussies are thrashing England in the Ashes hahaha)

-h-

Umer,

While you are eating your hummus, make sure your responses are on point.

Godot,
So soon? Waving your sister`s duppatta and feeding the flames? Sigh.

Sadna,
When it is apparent that my husband is Irish, Pakistanis, (and no one else, mind you) feel compelled to ask....any suggestions on how to handle it?

sameerJB #40 I have no problem with outlawing (and enforcing strict punishments) dysfunctional cultural practices. After all, the British (I think it was viceroy curzon) outlawed suttee in India, and I am sure lots of wives heaved a sigh of relief, and the general public had no problem