The Endangered Species

Total evasion....complete refusal to look at anything past your own nose-and you wonder why you have to bring this issue to me...

WHEN and IF you grow up Umer Sahib, you`ll understand what I have written, unless you are invested in being one of those myopic nags who cannot tolerate that people- even PARENTS!- gasp! -might not agree with the agenda of a child who has never raised a human being....

Well, Samina,

I am happy to hear of your mother. I hope she is healthy and please pass this jamaati`s regards to her. As for whether I can take her opinion on board, I`m afraid to say that your interpretation skills are not exactly the best in the world. For all I know, you were reading the Chinese menu to her.

Now, I`ve answered all your questions. If you feel that there`s some hidden agenda, please feel free to consult this issue with me and we can go over the possible motivations for my so-called obsession with this character, if only to relieve you. Reminds me of the dog chasing her own tail because the only reason it seems I`m so involved is because I`m being forced to reply to your questions. I have expressed before that this matter is finished, that I only spoke to her and tried to give a her a `real` picture and that is as far as I went. There must be something in the rule books about discussing someone`s life for so long which is why I said to Ajeet and yourself that we should finish this. However, since you fail to appreciate the point of my first post and are doing 180rpm on an autopilot, I have to speak about our study…again. Hence the illusion that I`m dwelling shwelling.

Now then, you have utterly failed to reach to the core of the situation and appreciate that the study is behaving selfishly. You just don’t get it, do you? I`m surprised that a mature person like you cannot appreciate and juggle various terms such as culture, selfishness, independence, liberty, privacy, talking, suggesting, imposing etc. etc. Instead, you have to consult with a wiser person to back up your opinion. Quiet sad really. Moreover, you fail to realise different cultures and different schools of thought. You still fail to realise that for it`s a two-way thing. Why should a parent bust their a$$? Where is it written that it is an obligation for a parent to give up their life for a child but they deserve nothing in return? Does the parent not deserve the truth? Do they not deserve that fundamental right? Is selfishness not a universally acknowledged evil? Is truth not a universally acknowledged right? Name me one culture where this is not so.

It`s the height of selfishness, not to mention cowardliness, to do all these things behind someone`s back and not face those contributing towards your life...hell, giving you life! If you really believe in something, why not stand up for it. Who are we kidding? It`s called having one`s cake and eating it also. Okay, so it`s none of our business but surely it`s her parents business or does our `best of both worlds` philosophy extend only to becoming eastern when it comes to using one`s parents and western when enjoying freedom? Why do the parents not become western also and tell their children to find their own lives at the age of 18?

You also didn’t answer my `Taliban` question just like you`ve been staying away from all other questions also and answering only selectively.

What happened, Samina? Cat got your tongue?

Umer M.

Umer,

A couple of things, since I`ve been pretty busy, but wanted to at least address a few points in your response:

1. I think that when you write that you dont think about what kinds of relationships are possible between parents and children, you are limiting your understanding of those relationships. You have typified the actions of this young woman as ``selfish`` and a ``betrayal``, when I beleive many Pakistanis and muslims would see this woman`s decisions differently. Actually, I asked my mother what she thought of this case, and she said 1. that this issue is really the family`s biz and noone elses 2. she did NOT see the daughter`s actions as a betrayal to the parents. She was puzzled by the idea of conditional support and conditional love. Her words were, ``its the responsibility of the parents to provide shelter, food and an education for their children``. Mind you, my ma is a fairly devout Muslim. So, you may think about that.

2. I am concerned about your utter lack of imagination when it comes to the narratives and trajectories of immigrant generations. Your friend is not the first and she wont be the last to break with tradition. WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES, THERE IS ALWAYS A REIMAGINING OF IDENTITIES, PATHS AND CHOICES. PAKISTANIS ARE NOT UNIQUE, NOT IS IT MORE TRAGIC THAT THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER ETHNIC YOUNGER GENERATION. You are completely in the wrong when you claim otherwise.

3. Why is it imp. for you to be involved in this? Really, what are your motivations?

4. I am super patient with my students. This is why I like being on Chowk-I can really speak my mind and dont have to worry about hurt feelings...you on the other hand, would benefit from a great deal of reading and researching this issue.

Ref Mullah321 #141

[harimau #140 For once I have learnt something from you.]

Keep an open mins and you will learn at least history from my diatribes.

[The tribal areas have been a nest of car thieves and kidnappers for years and get free electricity from the government as well and on top of that are permitted their own ``jirga`` system that essentially perpetuates the tribal hierarchy.]

Oh well. In India, we have been handing out free electricity to peasants for years now so much so that fully 50% of the electricity generated brings in no revenues, either because it is free to peasants (meaning, rich landlords) or it is stolen. As for your jirga system, there have been an increase of ``kattai panchyats`` in Tamil Nadu which are village assemblies with no legal standing, handing out punishments primarily for caste violations. Sangilikkaruppan won`t admit it but 70 years of the Self Respect Movement has only made sure that the OBCs oppress the Dalits in Tamil Nadu. But Sangilikkaruppan doesn`t mind because he got his 30 pieces of silver with which he bought his plane ticket to the US.

harimau #140 For once I have learnt something from you. I dont know about the Indian governmnet, but pakistani politicians and soldier-kings would certainly benefit from a brain transplant from these long dead Englishman so they could get some common sense and start developing some moral values. They could also benefit from a backbone transplant (those should still be available in the ``gora kabristan``) so they can then implement some changes. As it is, primitive tribal laws and customs and primitive ``religious`` customs that are essentially criminal in nature are allowed to continue unchecked in rural areas. The tribal areas have been a nest of car thieves and kidnappers for years and get free electricity from the government as well and on top of that are permitted their own ``jirga`` system that essentially perpetuates the tribal hierarchy.

Ref Mullah321 #63

[sameerJB #40 I have no problem with outlawing (and enforcing strict punishments) dysfunctional cultural practices. After all, the British (I think it was viceroy curzon) outlawed suttee in India,...]

Make it Lord Bentinck. A couple of decades before Curzon set foot inside India.

[.... and I am sure lots of wives heaved a sigh of relief, and the general public had no problem with it either.]

You are right on that point. History records that Job Charnock, the founder of Calcutta, rescued a Brahmin widow from the funeral pyre in Patna, and married and lived with her. The woman seems to have exhibited no qualms about leaving the burning wood pile or marrying a mlechcha.

re: saminasha
[ ... {have you noticed that in many immigrant famillies the first generation tends towards hard sciences while the second generation is making sense of it through artistic mediums ...]

That`s because math education back home is more focused (not necessarily superior). By the way, I never realized that the field of medicine is artistic...

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Ajeet,

Sorry man. I thought I had put your name on. My point was that the principles are the same. I didn’t ask for anyone’s opinion, minus Samina’s. The only reason for an intrusion was because everyone considered their input (their actions in effect) to be harmless. I was working on the same principle. I spoke to her about this once and that was the end of it. i considered my action harmless. Coupled with the fact that I know this person, it changes things a bit. But let`s forget about this now. It`s gettin boring.

I agree 100% about packing bags. I think if people want to preserve their ideas 110%, then they’re in for a surprise.

Thanks again,
Umer M.

Hamid,

Yeah mate. I was kinda outta my head yesterday. Must have got pi$$ed smelling your breath:)

Samina,

[I`m going to address your comments re: the situation you had originally described and not go into the rest because it seems tangential to me at best. ]

That could be anything, Samina. Sounds like a cop out to me:). The loooong post may have killed it but I would be interested in your opinion, nevertheless. What are your ideas on infanticides etc? If you had the power to stop them (by that I do not mean provide the females emancipation and improve poverty prospects etc. etc – but just the power to stop infanticides), would you do so and why? Do consider the points I mentioned along with the questions.

Regarding our study, hurrrmm. As far as I’m concerned, the case has been closed for some time and by talking about her again and again, I feel a bit bad discussing her over and over. It gives the impression that I’m dwelling on her so this is the last time I’m going to reply to these types o posts. My intention was top prove that the study was a user. I know I’ve done that.

[1. What outcome do you hope to achieve by informing this young woman`s parents of her personal actions? Why? ]

I had suggested to her that she should inform them. I do not have any plans to inform any of them (and why should I). From my experience (and it sounds a bit wonky but it’s far beyond her years even though we’re pretty much the same age) it was my hope to give her a real picture of the coming events. She could either inform them now or she could inform them later. If she informs them now, they’ll be angry. If she informs them later, they’ll be angry and hurt because they would have felt used. In effect, I know (not feel) that both parties are going to be hurt. My suggestion, I feel, is a compromise where both parties will be hurt as minimally as possible.

[2. Can you live with the principle that an individual`s personal actions are within that person`s human rights as long as they do not physically, emotionally or spiritually control or abuse another person?]

Which person? Me? The parents. She already has passed that boundary. She has been abusing the trust of her parents for 1 year; maybe not physically but emotionally definitely and according to them, spiritually also. As far as I’m concerned, I’m a live and let live fella. My choice to live with Non-Muslims in the Uni when I was being offered to live with these other Muslim chaps is probably a testimony to that. I live with such principles all the time. I consider keeping secrets from such important personalities as parents a universally accepted breach of human rights.

[3. What do you imagine are possible scenarios for this family if you do not inform this young woman`s parents? ]

Samina, you have this very annoying habit of shoving an idea up someone’s ar$e. Are you an Arian? perhaps it is a way to get me to somehow admit that I plan to inform her parents. I do not have any intentions to inform anyone about anything. They are doing at this moment in time what every Desi parent does.
‘Yes, my daughter is the head of IBM, what does your daughter do.’
‘Oh, she’s doing Pharmacy.’
‘Really?’
‘Yes.’
‘Have you found anyone for her?’
‘Had a few lookers. But study said that she wanted some time to think’ etc. etc. etc.
This is my point. The closer and closer she gets to the end of her studies, the more ‘churchaa’ she’s going to get and the more the name of the family is going to come up in social circles and little tea parties. Now’s not the time to get enlightened and start saying that her parents are intellectual savages or start quoting from this and that. Let’s be honest, Desi parents live in big communities where everyone knows everyone. She knows what’s going on at this moment. Her parents are revving the praising engines and this scenario is going to get worse and worse until the climax is reached. God, I can see it now. Remember this, she is definitely a Hindu and she is definitely going to spend most (if not the rest) of her life with her man. She has to tell them sometime but when will that be, now, when the wedding waters are warm or when it’s boiling. My logic is that if she tell them now, it’ll save them a lot of humiliation (because that`s what they ARE going to feel – it’s not about our opinions – it’s what their state of mind will be) whereas if she tells them at the end, they’ll not only feel humiliated but hurt and used also. Let’s change the example? What if you were going to attend your child’s graduation party and you were going to invite all his friends and family round too but your child had long before become a Taliban and had left his secular education? Hmmm? Wouldn’t it be selfish for the child to have you humiliated in front of all your peers. Wouldn’t it be a better idea to discuss this before.

[4. Will you able to live with any consequences that might occur should you tell her parents as well as not? ]

Good one! Like I said, I felt that as a Muslim I owed them a certain amount of responsibility. The outcome was a combination of your human rights bit plus what I consider a responsible action. I feel that I’ve done my bit by talking to her. In my opinion, going any further, (talking to her again, speaking to her parents etc.) is a violation of her privacy. That’s her problem.

[5. Do you often feel responsible for `correcting` the actions of others? ]

If someone stepped on a cigarette butt, you wouldn`t do anything. If their was $hit coming your friend`s way, you would push them out. (400 years later, this`ll be a classic little quote) Come on. That’s not fair. That’d probably be very long. There’s no yes or no answers and who am I to correct anyone. I practise what I do not preach and the conditions I impose upon myself are far harsher than the standard I would see others from. Selfishness, I must admit, does get my goat. Selfish people do pi$$ me off and it’s very possible that my actions may have been influenced by that. To be honest, it’s a combination of a million and one things, isn’t it, but if you have a connection with someone and you care about that individual, wouldn’t you consider it selfish yourself to not want to correct a perceived problem. What I know is that I personally have no problem with anyone talking to me about anything. Yes, sometimes I may feel offended but I think one should be tolerant enough. After all, If someone`s wasting their breath on me, the least I can do is listen to them.


[6. What are the responsibilities of parents to children? Of children to parents? Are the actions of younger South Asian Americans or Britishers any different from any other immigrant group in terms of familial expectations?]

Too long. I am a student, Samina. Be easy on me. I’m not a parent, only a son. And as a child I know that I’d rather suffer myself than impose suffering on anyone else, least of all, my parents.

[7. If your friend was a man, would your reactions be any different? Would it be more negotiable for a young man to date outside the race/religion?]

Again, Samina, you don’t listen. No offence intended but you’d do well to speak to your students once in a while and ask them if they feel you do not listen to them. I’ve told you before that this was not a woman/man issue for me. I truly do not think that this poor woman scenario exists or at least in the magnitudes that we frequently express; not in this day, age and place. It is a convenient slogan for young western Pak girls to pick that line up.

[8. IF you do divulge this woman`s personal life to her parents, will it set a precedent among other South Asians? Are you willing to live with the consequences of that?

You’ve made two mistakes. You’re bringing the feminist issue into this again. Again, I’ll inform you that I had no intentions of ever telling her parents anything. Like I said before, that’s her business. I tried to show her a real picture. That’s all. But I do believe in communities and I do believe in people being responsible for each other up to some extent. I only say this because white people as a whole who are socially more forward and have experienced what Asians and Blacks will experience in the next 10-15 years are now secretly asking for some form a community spirit to be born (my Samaritan talks) .The one thing people should do is develop tolerance to listen to criticism because something god may actually come out of it. His is what practised with her. If someone is not willing to hear an alternative view point which may burst someone’s blind love bubble, then person is at fault more than I am.

9. Have you thought of contacting a South Asian grassroots women’s org and get their feedback on this situation? Why or why not? To what extent is your reluctance to acknowledge gender dynamics limit your understanding of the different aspects of this situation?

Excellent point. I must admit, this never ever came to my mind. Bloody hell, good idea that! Forget gender dynamics, I`m not reluctant to accept them. I know that in this situation they do not exist. Maybe in third world countries but in the civilised world like UK, this is just a victim thing. One needs to understand that both girls and boys have access to various institutions and if someone’s parents are screwing around with you, then all you may do is give them the one-finger salute. I simply used my own experiences and from what I’ve compiled/understood from my voluntary social work. The point is this: majority of Muslim parents would be mighty pi$$ed off with both their daughters and their sons if they changed religion. I don’t think they would discriminate. It’s not what you or I think. It’s what I KNOW they will think.

10. What this it mean for you to be involved in this?
Sorry, Samina, I didn’t understand this last question.

Take care,
Umer M.

harpreeto...
if you like tagRi chicks, i will give up my diet right this instant! LOL ;)
And I agree with you about creative writing courses...they DO stifle a certain amount of individuality. I considered taking some just to help me be more disciplined and focused, but even that, i think i could attempt to do without spending tons of moolah.
xx

ps: to #132

...and it is only a matter of time before he loses it and starts spreading his brand of poison around...and then crawl back under the rocks...

Saminashah,

That was a no-breeder, err no brainer. Most of us practise what we preach. Do you?

Cackle-hens cannot lay eggs but the ability to lay eggs does not automatically make you a breeder either. Someone else is really needed to get the ball rolling and stake half a claim on the egg. There is no Life if the sperm and egg do not dance. A barren woman, whether by design or accident is as desolate as an impotent or celibate man.

I thank Allah that your parents were breeders, otherwise chowk would be so barren & desolate.

Are you an outie or an innie, no breed or half-breed? You can`t have it both ways-- but then you might question, `why not`.

Enjoy your flickering & fluxing sexual orientation at a different time of day everyday. We enjoy the peepshow you present. But like everything gaudy, garish, and gluttonous, that too becomes a grind ;).


Tahmad:
Your intelligence is exceeded only by your comprehension. Let us not belabor the point.

sammi...what is this world coming to?

do you know that sac has his head firmly screwed to his shoulders and acts mischieviously to stir the hornet`s nest here sometimes...go easy on him...

...whereas the frangi hydra jr. is full of bile, venom and illusions of grandeuer and self loathing...and he purposefully crawls out from under the rock to spread venom...

...in the past sac had this frangi hydra by the throat ...if i recall the hydra had boasted about being a world class banker, financier and venture-capitalist...and sac took the clue and would not leave his throat...that is when hydra decided to crawl under...

...t

GZ,
Its too rich, too much the way you and sac are advising me to ``give up my hang ups``....why not accept your status as a breeder? The unthinking, biological imperative to procreate as impelled by human biochemistry... No different from any breeding animal...although all animals and some humans are more noble breeders than some.....I`ve leave you to guess who`s what....and since I have the op, why dont you and sac accept reality as most people know it and put away those tinfoil hats you guys have fashioned in order to receive messages from other solar systems....

GhalibZaman #125 ``Jihad is a lifelong and ongoing duty of every muslim. ``
Who told you that? Jihad (as commonly used to mean violent conflict, not the bs about jihad against cholera an dysentary, as the apologists for the jamaatias like to claim when pressed on this point) is clearly permitted only in case of self-defense in the Quran. And then of course the mullahs will stretch ``self-defense`` to include terrorist acts, when common sense says otherwise.