Skeptical And Counter-Skeptical Trends In Medieval Islam

Islamic Philosophy is, in any case, a pleonasm. It suffers terribly from what it cannot do, which is to explain how it conceives the use of logic within theistic and non-theistic context. If Muslim Philosophers are to abandon all together the prefix ``Islamic`` leaving it as philosophy pure and simple, or logic pure and simple, then these philosophers run the risk of being labelled un-islamic. The mind-body dualism of the Enlightenment in Europe has produced many errors in the way we conceive of what we ordinarily understand ``the realm of thoughts and ideas`` to consist in. The first most important error was the assimilation of the Intellect with the Soul, broadly speaking, or the tacit replacement of the classic ternary of spiritus, animus and corpus, as clarified by the Scholastics, with a vulgarised dualism between the rational faculty and the body. Muslim intellectuals have become a hardened lot in the last few centuries especially upon further contact with European civilisation. Some have ridiculed it while others have opened their arms to all of its tellurian productions. Muslim intellectuals, forever torn between impish imitation of those productions and a fundamentalist self-conceit, have largely failed to elucidate the way in which genuine Islamic firasa (discernment) or falsafa (philosophy) is to be learned through the experience of life itself. The sin of ``intellectualism`` does not therefore consist in the flagrant display of narcissitic self-concern but in the inability to perceive objects as they stand in relation to the perceiving subject and to replace science with theology. The Islamic world does not learn from ``muslim intellectuals`` and vice versa. The Islamic World is in no need of justification or defence in circumstances where the insight of the one-eyed is given precedence over the objective perception of truth or justice. The visceral identity of home-grown professional Muslims is self-contradictory, unhelpful and marked by its inspid myopia. Genuine ``Islamic philosophy`` if it is to ring true to its self-description should be in a position to apply the tools of logic correctly to all aspects of the real and illusory in the sensible worlds. Islamic philosophy, like philosophy without prefixes, cannot be simply about the rationalization of religious belief; it must cater to all aspects of the real including those of different observers.

GhalibZaman #106 ``When was the last time you saw an englishman performing ball-room dance for the appreciation of a `watching` audience ``
How about a bunch of unemployed englishmen doing the full monty? As in the movie.
Actually you have a point. Last time I went to a ``world fair`` (Hanover, Germany, 3-4 years ago), I was struck by the fact that while the ``advanced`` countries were focussing on technology (e.g. French) or environment (e.g. Finns), the ``developing countries`` were invariably showing off their damned ``cultural`` bs (the Moroccans were the worst, with their loud music and singing and jumping around).

Gill Saab,

``...they came in contact with other civilizations and cultures, philosophy, and other rational sciences such as mathematics, astronomy, physics etc. that had been transmitted from Greece into these countries...``

My information is that an Indian mathematician (Sindhi or Punjabi) visited the court of Mamun-al-rashid bearing contemporary Indian works on mathematics (Brahmagupta`s books). The Arabs took their first steps into mathmatics and astronomy with Brahmagupta.

To those who are surprised by this...know also that the Arabs borrowed a large number of sanskrit terms directly into their techinical usage, including the famous `arabic numerals`.


Gill Saab, did you know all this? If you did...its a crying shame!

Greece, huh?!!

A punjabi refuses to acknowledge his own forefathers!!!


best wishes,

Now this REALITY will definitely BITE --

unless that Texas moron has his Daddy`s money to squander over waging war against -- already broken -- third world countries

while the ECONOMY goes to the dogs:

```` WASHINGTON (Dec. 6) - In the worst case, a war with Iraq could cost the United States almost as much as the government spent in the last budget year - nearly $2 trillion, according to new projections.

Researchers concluded in a study released Thursday that war with Iraq could cost the United States from $99 billion to more than $1.9 trillion over a decade.

The lower figure assumes a successful military, diplomatic and nation-building campaign; the higher figure assumes a prolonged war with a disruption of oil markets and a U.S. recession, the authors say in a study by the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.````(AP)

Does this illiterate President know anything better than WARMONGERING ??? –

while his -- ```Treasury Secretary Paul O`Neill and economic adviser Larry Lindsey resigned amid growing concern about the ailing economy.

Bush advisers have been increasingly worried that a lagging economy could hamper the president`s re-election prospects.

The unemployment rate rose to 6 percent on Friday, the highest in nearly nine years.

The resignations came four weeks after Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey Pitt resigned under fire. (AP)

can u read the writing on the wall -- dumbo?

it says:

IT IS THE -- ECONOMY -- STUPID – NOT --- IRAQ.

#107 nasah sahib,

aadab arz, aadab arz.

(Encores)

tO ghalibun aap doosra misra yuoon parrhain gay:

tujhhay humm valee sumajhhtey, jo naa ZIYADA khwar hota. :)

aap kee nazr hai:

Lutf aanay lagaa jafaaoN mein
voh kaheen mehrbaan naa ho jaaey.

Guzray hain maiy kuday sey jo taubaa kay ba` ad humm
kuchh dooor aadatunn bhee qadam dugmagaaey hain. :)

(ubb mazeed munh kyoon khulvaatay hain. )

ziyadaa hudd aadab.

#106 by GhalibZaman to #104 Feroze

````Theory, any theory, is nothing but belief. Study of this belief is theology.```` (Ghalibzaman)

yeh massayele aqeedut ye teraa beyaan Ghalib!

-- Ghalib sahib -- aap anpne yeh do bund phir se phurhiye -- mukarrarr -- mukarrurr

````if this logic of the national existence in the hereafter was applied to fishes, would it mean that there is life over water?```` (ferozk)

yes -- there IS -- in the frying pan.

#104 Feroze

Theory, any theory, is nothing but belief. Study of this belief is theology.
Economic theory, Big Bang theory, Darwin theory, and any other theory has nothing whatsoever to do with material `progress`. The ancients accomplished a lot of technological progress despite their belief in the earth on-cow-horn theory.

You need to study material sciences, hard sciences, tangible sciences to `progress`. This garbage of The-world-according-to this-artsy-fartsy or That dismal-abysmal-`scientist` is a waste of time for the have-not nations--muslims or not. Third-worldness has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam & Muslims. Your angst & pain notwithstanding.

Let us learn from the chinese. Look around the campuses. They are not wasting their time learning the ghetto subjects like sociology, poli-sci, or anthropology. The are into engineering, medicine ; Technical subject which are practical, skill-oriented, which will make them independant to earn a living without resorting to gora kow-towing. Thus they can lead their lives with their language , culture, and theory (belief) intact.

Heritage programs and cultural shows are for those who are recognised as the conquered ones--like the Indians of both the Red & Brown variety.
Those with dignity & honor never & ever make a spectacle of themselves by putting up a show for the pleasure of others. When was the last time you saw an englishman performing ball-room dance for the appreciation of a `watching` audience or a visiting dignitary.

``THe worst form of slavery is when the mind is enslaved and one does not even realise that one is enslaved``

Intolerance is a merely a narissitic relflection of our true identity and though we may rave against the myriad faces of intolerance; intolernance can always turn towards us one, which is our own face.

In Islam, a nation is founded on the principles of theocracy and the theocratic beliefs of Islam determine the policies of the nation itself. Islamic theocracy suggests that, like individuals, nations have will have an after life and the real salvation of a nation lies not in the present, but in next life.

In this sense, Islam needs to pay heed to the words of Cardinal Richelieu, when he said that, ``man is immortal; his salvation is in the hereafter, but a nation is mortal - its salvation is now or never``.

In other words, if this logic of the national existence in the hereafter was applied to fishes, would it mean that there is life over water?

The answer is obvivious, but whether it is accepted or not is the problem aflicting the nature of Islamic goverance in the world today.

Ciao

whats with all the attention the western media is paying to islam all of a sudden? the following article in salon makes some interesting and provocative points on the role of women in islam.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/12/04/islamic_women/print.html

What would Mohammed do?
Geraldine Brooks, an expert on the role of women in Islam, says the ``haters of beauty`` behind the Miss World riots misrepresent what is a ``pro-sexuality`` religion.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Laura McClure



Dec. 4, 2002 | Two weeks ago, a Nigerian fashion writer`s throwaway remark -- that Mohammed would have approved of the Miss World pageant and probably would have chosen a wife from among the contestants -- sparked riots that killed 220 people, left thousands homeless and earned the author, Isioma Daniel, a fatwa.

By and large, the West found this imbroglio baffling, and many immediately blamed Islam. But the religion, to those who know it, is anything but strait-laced. Islam produced Rumi, a 13th century Sufi mystic and poet who wrote verses such as, ``When someone quotes the old poetic image about clouds gradually uncovering the moon, slowly loosen knot by knot the strings of your robe.`` Nowhere in the Koran does it say adulterers should be stoned. Nowhere does it say that women should be completely covered.

In the kaleidoscope that is modern Islam, there are a thousand images of women, says Geraldine Brooks, author of ``Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women.`` Turn the prism one way and you get outspoken religious feminists in Iran and the mosque down the street. Turn it another, and you have Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, where women are not even allowed to raise their voices, lest men find it alluring.

Wahhabist religious schools -- funded by Saudi Arabia -- have managed to disseminate extreme Islamist views into developing countries. In this way, Brooks maintains, the Saudis are much to blame for the growing restrictions placed on women in poorer countries around the world.

Nigeria, she says, is no exception. ``In Nigeria you have a small group of Islamist extremists who want to impose Islamic states on parts of the country where there are significant Christian minorities who just won`t take it,`` says Brooks. ``And so, when you throw a match on that, all the bitterness about other things is being expressed, not just what somebody wrote in a newspaper.``

In an interview with Salon, Brooks talks about the rise of what she calls ``the haters of beauty`` in Islam, and discusses the fragile coexistence in the religion of ``pro-sexuality`` and a fear of women gaining power.

So, how do you get from Rumi to people chanting ``down with beauty``?

Well, I think the best place to start is with Mohammed himself and look at what his attitude was, as far as we can know it, toward women and sex. And it`s pretty interesting to me. If you look at Mohammed`s life, women were crucial figures in it. His first wife was older and a wealthy woman _ _ _ _.

#100 Jay:
Wrong. It was bcause of Muslims AND Islam.

The route to the renaissance of europe starts with the persecution of the Muslim & Jews in the 14th century spain. Then it is the invention of the Guttenburg press. Then Martin Luther...etc etc.

Germany has always been at the forefront of translating Arabic works into German. No one else translated Arabic works into english until after colonisation (France & England). Luther`s movement was as a result of such translations and their publications in German & not in Latin. Germany still is the best centre in Europe for studying muslim history & science.

Whether you like it or not you as Hindians are surrounded by Muslims. Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, Middle-East and You know who. Most of you work for them (Arabs) and they are your benefactors, as always were, throughout your history. Admit this in public and the demons in your belfry will disappear. It is really difficult for those who always worked for others to realise what it means to be free & incharge.You can consider this as a kind of intellectual siege. You will not be able to wish it away. Whatever you hear from the most bitter, ardent, and apparently hate-filled muslim-critic of Islam is because of their intense love & devotion to better their muslim lot. Muslims have this talent for rejecting from amongst their own numbers but few want to abandon Islam. .... even during the harshest times , or with all kind of lures by missionaries or persecutions.

Please work towards silencing even more the lilliput-hindu in you by chanting secularism & democracy . That is always the first step.

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Free thinker,

``Europe acquired Greek philosophy from the Muslims. ``

No sir, when the turks invaded constantinople, the greek scholars and artists fled to other parts of europe and that led to the spread of knowledge. In history books, other than in islamic countries, this is called renaissance.
Next time when you meet a french engineer building subamrines in pakistan, just ask him for history books, do it before he gets blown up.

Most of the pakistani posters seem to have hit a low ebb, may be hunger from fasting is affecting the brains.

#96 Freethinker:

You have summed up well and I fully concur with what you have written. It is a shame that most of us excel at adopting only the evil influences.

I read your bio. I share with you a lot of memories , in another era of course, of that great alma-mater. At least it was great then. Arif Mumtaz-ud-in s/o Prof Mumtaz was a school chum of mine (still is), Maybe his elder brother was with you there or at warsak, All the Akmal Rizvis clan boys & girls were my & my sisters classmates/school mates . We used to go there as kids to watch cricket at the annexe, attended the annual sports events and especially enjoyed watching the grease obstacle race. Then the annual musical convention, the best in Pakistan, where I heard Mehdi Hassan render Gulon mein rang bharay for the first time----an event that set the fire alit for the `revolution` under Mubbashir Hassan & two other professors.

``Dil sey jo baat nikaltee hai, asar rakhtee hai
Purr naheen, taquat-e parvaaz, magar rakhtee hai
Qudsee ul asr hai*, Raf a` t pey nazar rakhtee hai
khaak sey uthhtee hai , gardoon pay guzar rakhtee hai.``

*From Him is revealed everything righteous ( qudsee-al asl).

Blessed be you and I wish you well on your journey.
Kahaa sunnaa muaaf.

A related article about change in Iran: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/04/opinion/04FRIE.html

Quote from Shariati from the article: ``He continued: ``We need a religion that respects the rights of all — a progressive religion, rather than a traditional religion that tramples the people. . . . One must be a good person, a pure person. We must not say that if you are not with us we can do whatever we want to you. By behaving as we do, we are trampling our own religious principles.``

Mr. Aghajari concluded: ``Today, more than ever, we need the `Islamic humanism` and `Islamic Protestantism` that Shariati advocated. While [Iran`s clerical leaders] apparently do not recognize human rights, this principle has been recognized by our Constitution. . . .

Freethinker:

There is a lot in the western culture, which can be condemned. Some of the inter-actors have pointed to that fact. But there is a lot in the west, which, I believe, the Muslim world needs to learn and there should be no barrier for acquiring that knowledge.

My first job in Pakistan was on the construction of the Warsak Hydroelectric Project. The Canadian engineers in Niagara Falls designed this project. The Canadian contractors built the project; of course Pakistani engineers and technicians did lot of work under their supervision. Pakistanis could not have built this project by themselves. This was the first dam in Pakistan.

I used to wonder why don’t the Muslims have this technical know-how? Mangla and Tarbela were subsequently built by the foreign engineers. I learned engineering by reading the books authored by the western scholars. The heavy machinery that was used to build these projects was imported; none of those pieces of equipment were manufactured in Pakistan.

I am raising some questions here, which are not wholly rhetorical. Do we need this technical know-how? Do we need the knowledge of manufacturing heavy equipment? Do we need electricity to light our homes, preserve our food, and cool our work places and homes? Do we need cars? Do we need aeroplanes? I believe we do. Then why don’t we learn to make them ourselves?

When I was in Nigeria, I was working as a counterpart engineer with the UNDP team. I worked with a German civil engineer. Whenever any Pakistani went on home vacation, invariably he would take with him car, refrigerator, TV, and other appliances. The German asked me one day when your country does not produce these appliances, why you guys are so much hooked on to them.

If we need to manufacture these goodies, where are we going to learn the processes of making them? Guys, there should be no hesitation in acquiring knowledge even if we “have to go to China” in its pursuit. I’m not suggesting that the Muslim world should acquire the western way of life. And you know what? We in fact have acquired western way of life and are having mental hesitation in acquiring the so-called western knowledge.

Science is not Christian; it is not Hindu, nor even Muslim; it does not have any religion. Why should there be any hesitation in acquiring it? Science is the knowledge about physical phenomena. We need not go into intricate political and philosophical theories. The need is clear. Take one step at a time. One who suggests that we don’t need the western sciences is not really honest to himself. Many of us cherish and admire the academic degrees from the western universities but despise the western knowledge. Those of you who are scientists know that science really works; it’s for real. Stingers are real and nothing could be more real than the atomic bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And know what, science is not the monopoly of the west. When Europe was in dark ages, Islamic world was leading in every thing; mathematics, medicine, physical sciences, even philosophy. Europe acquired Greek philosophy from the Muslims. Ibn Rushd’s commentaries of Aristotle’s work were translated into Latin and other European languages. But the difficulty is that unfortunately we’re stuck in our glorious past and are not paying much attention to ameliorate our dismal present.

Wish you well.