Skeptical And Counter-Skeptical Trends In Medieval Islam

WHERE IS OURS?

From Jang Group`s The News International, Monday Decenber 2, 2002

Tolerance

By Hafizur Rahman

Have you noticed how every nation, every society, every individual claims that tolerance of political, religious and social views of others is the cardinal feature of their personality? Compare this with the tolerance that actually prevails and you come to the conclusion that either all those nations, societies and individuals are liars and hypocrites, or they don`t know what tolerance means.

We take pride in the fact that Islam is the most tolerant of religions. Nobody can deny this fact. But what about Muslims, and particularly the
Muslims of Pakistan? Are they as tolerant as their faith teaches them to be?
Please note that I do not accuse Muslims in general of being intolerant, only those who belong to the land of the pure where even the government has
been made intolerant by certain laws promulgated by General Ziaul Haq. As for Muslims of other lands, I am writing this piece specially to highlight
an amazing example from the Far East.
.................cont``d.

Ghalib Zaman #72 Sabatai did convert from Judaism to Islam, and after getting all of Europe`s 17th century jews excited by his movement to set up a jewish state in the middle east. The conversion to Islam was (as you will note from your cutandpaste) an option to being executed. It is true though that he lived for many years after that as a muslim in Constantinople (or perhaps some other part of what is now Turkey), BUT continued to receive jewish visitors. But, given the mess out of islam that muslim fanatics have made nowadays, I for one dont rejoice any conversions to ``islam`` (i.e. the travesty of islam). And of course, the Quran makes it clear that converting to islam is not required to be in good standing with Allah, so the whole bs about conversions to islam is just that - bs. With no standing in the Quran.

einsteinwallah #75: Some time ago I asked all the chowkies to name one real Jihad from the history of Islam after Muhammad`s death because I did not want to bring him in the discussion. Nobody, not a single example of jihad is there according to the definition. Now I challenge name one rich/ famous individual thief from the 1400 year history of Islam whose hand was amputated or one person who was stoned to death for adultery. Fact is that there is not a single example of any of these unless an enemy or rebel was accused of such crimes in order to get rid of him. Only stupid and pathetic people would keep on discussing, interpreting and reinterpreting useless things with no examples from real life in the last 1400+ years except fooling simple people in the name of religion. Why was god so obsessed for such matters that never happened? He would have convinced more to believe in him by suggesting medicine for headache instead of bloody road to conversions and other blah blah.

re: Discoveries and inventions of early cultures
This article in NY Times is apt for this forum
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=271368
Sridhar

Ref ferozk #70

[re: Harimau
The Roman emperor Marcus Aureilius was correct. You have just vindicated his observations by your comments. Just remember what Sun Tzu said: do not hate your enemies; it clouds the jugement. ]

Naither Pakistan nor Pakistanis are my enemies.

I do not hate any person.

I do hate ideas that tyrannize people`s minds. Thus my questioning of certain Islamic beliefs or certain people.

[ #46 by ferozk on November 30, 2002 7:23am PT
...
Romair, skepticism is discouraged in Islam, because to question Islam itself and to offer a different interpretation from the offically sanctioned one, is punishable by death. Islam, as it is practiced in the contempoary sense, is an insecure religion, whose perception of skepticism, as defined within itself, is seen as a threat to its survivial and hence, it opts for violence, where necessary, to silence any dissent against it.

To further eludicate your observations, the ``need of the hour`` is not to have reformists in Islam, but to instill a culture of tolerance in Islam, which encourages the efforts of those Islamic reformists. There are no reformists in Islam and neither will there be any reformists in Islam unless Islam and its practioners create a tolerant environment; an environment, which encourages a reflection of thought upon the nature of Islam itself and does not encourage an environment of fear, insecurity and ignorance through the ill-considered employment of non-religiously motivated death threats. ]

I think so this leads to a catch 22 situation. Because there are no skeptics who would question the very concept of jihad and because all religions are ultimately ideologies of mass consumption, concept of jihad as understood by masses is going to stick around for a long long time to come. Skepticism and counter-skepticism to resolve issues mentioned in ``The Incoherence of the Philosophers`` means nothing if it does not also naturally lead to questioning of very cynical concepts of jihad and apostasy. Unfortunately revolutionary change has gone out of fashion. Masses are not going to miraculously provide itself with brand new religion just like that. Only a revolution can. And for that you need a leader. A ``committee`` of reformists cannot do the job.

[Having said that, the critical problem in Islam is not what Islam teaches, because the modern practioners of Islam have deviated from its teachings and are more ritualistic in their interpretations of Islam. Islam, if it is to find a escape from its presend day problems, will have answer the questions based on how Islam, as a religion, is being practiced today and not how it was being practiced in its golden age. The answers to the questions haunting Islam will have to be discovered in the light of its contempoary experiences and not by seeking refuge in its past historical experience. ]

Yes. And uppermost in the minds of leaders must be natural corollary of violence that is preached in the name of Islam. Not whether or not there was creation or not. Not whether or not God knows particulars and all the rest of metaphysical mumbo jumbo. But plain and simple questions about jihad and apostasy.

-ew

``i humbly submit that 2 centuries of economic exploitation by British and 50 years of stupid Nehruvian policies have impoverished India more than anything else.``(sridhar)

rsridhar maharaj:

i am no anglophile -- i fought the British for our independence -- but let`s be fair

for all the `exploitations` the British did they gave us back two jewels -- John Stuart Mills -- and a Koh-e Noor of the language -- called English -- for which we will always be indebted to them.

regarding the ``50 years of stupid Nehruvian Policies`` -- thanks to those years -- we still look civlized -- not barbarians -- despite our barbarian Guja rat.

so count yur blessings -- and put your blame where it belongs -- Ralph is Right --

Face it humble man -- CASTE is a BLOT on Hinduism --

and if it has not damaged you beyond repair -- it`s only because of those -- ``50 years of stupid Nehruvian Policies``.

And it is only because of those ``50 years of stupid Nehruvian Policies`` --that TODAY -- NO General Vajpayee is running the country -- or will ever run the country -- period.

``i humbly submit that 2 centuries of economic exploitation by British and 50 years of stupid Nehruvian policies have impoverished India more than anything else.``(sridhar)

rsridhar maharaj:

i am no anglophile -- i fought the British for our independence -- but let`s be fair

for all the `exploitations` the British did they gave us back two jewels -- John Stuart Mills -- and a Koh-e Noor of the language -- called English -- for which we will always be indebted to them.

regarding the ``50 years of stupid Nehruvian Policies`` -- thanks to those years -- we still look civlized -- not barbarians -- despite our barbarian Guja rat.

so count yur blessings -- and put your blame where it belongs -- Ralph is Right --

Face it humble man -- CASTE is a BLOT on Hinduism --

and if it has not damaged you beyond repair -- it`s only because of those -- ``50 years of stupid Nehruvian Policies``.

And it is only because of those ``50 years of stupid Nehruvian Policies`` --that TODAY -- NO General Vajpayee is running the country -- or will ever run the country -- period.

Now who has ever heard the `prophets` or messiahs of other religions, converting to any other religion but Islam.

Fascinating indeed.



Sabbatai Zevi
The Jewish mystic and messiah, Sabbatai Zevi (1626-76), referred to by the abbreviated title of Amirah by his followers, was born in Smyrna (now Izmir), Turkey. Sabbatai`s first teacher was the Gadol Reb. Isaac di Alba, a member of the Bais Din in Smyrna with whom he studied Kabbalah beginning in 1650. After six years under Master Isaac, Sabbatai continued his studies under the illustrious R. Joseph Eskapha, author of ``Rosh Yosef`` and a leading halakhist of his time. He most probably gave Sabbatai smicha and the rabbinical title of hakham (``wise`` or ``sage``) when the latter was still an adolescent.

By 1648 Sabbatai showed signs of what modern scholars (who are caught up in the meme of reductionist materialism) claim to be manic-depressive psychosis. In other words, strange behavior and violations of religious law, and proclaimed himself the Messiah. Expelled from Smyrna around 1651-54, he wandered through Greece, Thrace, Palestine, and Egypt. In 1665 he met the charismatic Nathan of Gaza, who persuaded him that he was indeed the Messiah. Sabbatai Zevi then formally revealed himself, named 1666 as the millennium, and soon gained fervent support in Palestine and the Diaspora. It is important to realize that the entire Jewish world of 1665-66 believed that Sabbatai was no mere ``prophet`` or ``teacher`` but the Promised Messiah and a living incarnation of God. It was the only messianic movement to engult the whole of Jewry; from England to Persia, from Germany to Morocco, from Poland to the Yemen.

Sabbatai attempted to land in Constantinople in 1666, but was captured andimprisoned by the Turkish authorities in 1666. He converted to Islam, supposedly to escape execution, although Nathan and his other followers put a different interpretation on this. Sabbatai`s conversion actually represented the descent into the klippotic realm in order to reclaim the lost sparks of light. Many of his followers converted likewise. Sabbatai - who, like Meher Baba and Max Theon was called ``The Beloved`` by his followers - may have had close relations with the Sufis. He died in exile in Ulcinj (in what is now Montenegro, part of the federation of Serbia and Montenegro). The Sabbatean movement was revived in the 18th century by Jacob Frank.

re:#60 by Ralph
Ralph,
Though caste system was a factor, i humbly submit that 2 centuries of economic exploitation by British and 50 years of stupid Nehruvian policies have impoverished India more than anything else.
Sridhar

re: Harimau

The Roman emperor Marcus Aureilius was correct. You have just vindicated his observations by your comments. Just remember what Sun Tzu said: do not hate your enemies; it clouds the jugement.

Ciao

Ferozk,

It would be great if your post could be converted to an article on chowk, the post is short, and to the point unlike your articles.

Islam as it has influenced the laws of the country could be very illuminating. The religious revivalism all through the world is a response to the new economy, the rules of success are changing rapidly and no one knows. Some are taking to the religion, and in that sense islam is more precise, black and white, the solutions are easy to understand, kill the evil.

What is unfortunate is that there seem to be no ray of hope for islam. You talk of developing tolerance in islam, how can one do that. Despite what motivated pakistanis might say, islamic countries have never put the knowledge to use. islamic, middle eattern countries collected the geographical rent by trading, lnking between the east and the west. They were never producers of anything, at best survival level agriculture. They were simply middle men.

This is what has happened to pakistan. Once it became a separate country, the entire notion of producing some thing of value to others went out and pakistan regressed to the idea, the old arabic idea of collecting geographical rent.

Ayub khan did it by allowing the americans to operate the U2s, then pakistan turned to china to define india as a common enemy, then it was afghanistan and the US money again. Attempt also was made to sell the religion to saudi to make a living and thus came faisalabad.

Learn something, to produce something is not in the islamic mind set. Even today the talk is about laying pipe line central asian countries, iran india pipe, the focuss is to collect the rent. There are no plans what so ever to produce something out of the gas supplies.

The plan to sell electricity to india did not go through, it involved a production process, commercial risk.

The religion has destroyed the pakistanis ability to think of complex issues, trade it is very easy, profit and loss calculations are not complex compared to production.

re: ralph

{One day of discrimination is one too many for people who suffer. }


..agree completely...

Studebaker,

Pakistanis are Indians? Very good news. What is all the fuss about then?

Methinks you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

CURRENT ISLAM,

While the pakistanis relish the skeptical traditions in medieval islam, the fight against terror has passed another way point, the missile attack on an aircraft. May be another attack, that would be the end of foreigh aircrafts operating to the potential terrorist countries. This will be another step in controlling the jihadic frontiers.

The present focuss is on removing the weapons of mass distruction. Fine, do I remeber a country that exploded a bomb and called it islamic bomb.

Afetr the big bombs it might be necessary to limit smaller missiles, to limit the potential for attack on aircraft....logically the de weaponisation should only the medieval ones available to the ones who relish the glory of the religion in medieval times.

Very well written with honest insightful analysis.