Closet

Let me be the devil`s advocate (in other words, speak my mind): I reject the presumption that gays are born, not made. The reason is simple: genes promoting behavior that prevents propogation of the species would not have any descendants to whom they are passed.
In other words, these would be ``dead-end`` genes that would have been the first ones to be eliminated (if they ever entered the human genome to begin with that is) millions of years ago.
This logic is also apparent in everyday life: from all indications, for example, the human body is built with one major goal in mind - the propogation of the species. Many diseases (cardiovascular, cancers, to name the most common) do not kick in until an individual is beyond child-bearing age.
I have never heard this rather obvious argument presented in the west or anywhere else. I think the reason is with the negative connotations most people have with being ``anti-gay``.
As far as I am concerned, if two grown men fancy each other`s hairy legs and smelly armpits, that is their business. AS LONG as they keep this enjoyment private, and dont parade it around like a badge of progressiveness. I dont even care if they give gay couples the same civil and property rights as unmarried heterosexual couples. But, by making a virtue out of their fetish, gays merely confuse younger people with unfounded ideas that some people have ``gay`` genes in them. They might as well tell them that some people have ``foot fetish`` genes in them, while others have ``masochist`` genes in them. All logic tells us otherwise. This may offend some politically correct people, but this is chowk and ah sez what ah seez.

somone once told me that there`s actual love involved in same-sex relationships instead of mindless sex....is that true? (pardon my ignorance)

I am extremely shocked that...there would be this many gay people in Pakistan, i can unsderstand india, but pakistan...anyhow thats not exactly a bad thing....equality is the most important thing a state strives to achieve....and in order to do that the society needs to accept these people as there is nothing wrong with them, as Mr. Khurram so rightly states...we all commit sins...and most of them are considered `ok` by the society then why not homosexuality...not that its a sin, but why discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation...
I havent been to Pakistan for the longest time...but i have been told that the society is much more open...i hope there is hope for the helpless gay community of Pakistan.

for those of you who missed 12-head...lijiye...woh laut aaya.
Freesoul..
unfortunately i cannot agree with you on everything that you have said. Your explanation or interpretation as to what the intent of the writer is, is just that your interpretation...it is not the interpretation. And I don`t believe that the happy one is saying the piece is derogatory, or unsympathetic (or are you, o happy one?)...merely that the word homo is, and should not have been used. Perhaps the writer will be more aware the next time he should write or talk about gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transgendered folk. Your reference to context here is interesting, given that we are discussing the struggles of a gay man in a restrictive environment...the intent may be sympathetic, but that word is not. I don`t think I need to focus on this anymore...I just hope the writer will bear this criticism as open-mindedly as he has been here.

Re: temporal (8)

Glad that my presence brings you joy. In return I can only provide wryness. The warts on the face of Chowk that drove me away remain firmly planted. Now when I look into Chowk’s face I do so infrequently, reluctantly and with a shuddering wince.

Re: freesoul (10)

You are right. It is very much a ‘brown sahib’ tendency to mock other people’s English. You will find however that almost without exception those who partake in this nonsense could do well to use an English 101 at their friendly neighborhood community college. You know… people in glass houses and all that…

Re: All

To me the whole debate about same sex relations basically boils down to a very simple question.
Is homosexual behavior a matter of choice?

If homosexuality is a ‘life style choice’ as the right fringe would have you believe then the whole question of tolerance or compassion does come into play. Once having decided that somebody ‘slipped up’ or ‘made a bad choice’ in being gay, one can then consider whether such a person deserves any compassion or tolerance. We can endlessly debate back and forth about how much compassion or tolerance to accord a person afflicted with such fallibility. Platitudes regarding ‘god’s’ kindness towards ‘sinners’ can also be doled out with a semblance of validity.

But what if the answer to this question were in the negative? What if people were built to be gay? What if it was a genetic and physiological condition? Like being colored, or fat, or curly haired! The whole debate about compassion and tolerance goes out the window then doesn’t it?
Imagine how repulsed a black person would be if a couple of white guys (however well-meaning) sat and talked to each other about how tolerant and compassionate they were of black people and how the balcks needed to be gently guided to whiteness instead of being bashed upside of their heads. Black people don’t need the white people’s permission, tolerance or compassion to be black. They are black. The very same applies to gay people.

Ask someone who’s gay whether this was a ‘choice’ they made and 10 times out of 10 they will tell you that they can remember being gay from the first day of puberty. This means that gays are ‘created’ gay. Unless of course you think the entire gay community is flat lying!

Gay people don’t want special rights, they just want all the rights that straight people have. The rights to marry, adopt, show affection in public, eat burgers, fart, take roller coaster rides, fight in the military, go bungee jumping, dance, pray, joke and play cricket. They are not looking for a positive reaction from you, they are hoping for no reaction at all.


And one more time:
Could people please not use the term ‘homo’? It’s like using the word ‘nigger’ in a serious debate about race relations. Come on!

nooralain (15)

The author has not used any derogatory tone for gays. He perhaps does not know that homo is derogatory term. His tone is sympathetic and his writing is quite inquisitive. I am not sure how that `happy one` reached this conclusion about the `derogatory` intent of the author. Any term (including nigger) without proper context does not automatically become derogatory.

I have nothing against the good communication and composition skills. And I do share everyone`s concern at the editorial quality of chowk. But if upgrading the editorial quality means that these sort of artciles r not published and this author type weak `angrezdan` do not write, then I am willing to sacrifice english composition quality at chowk in favor of new things to read.

What is the last time that i and u read anything about gays in pakistan? I am happy that i read something, irrespective of bad quality of article, anonymous sources used, and no scientific reasearch (the last 2 reasons r more severe in my opinion than the first one).

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

NJ,

Welcome to Chowk!

Thanks for the article; its nice to see people wrangle with these issues-kind of help us live in the real world, na?

Have to agree with Noor; homo is not acceptable to the gay, lesbian, and transgender community; I believe queer and gay are....

All this hoopla about ``Khush`` people.

Homosexuality is the least of our current world concerns.

Don`t ask. Don`t tell.

Aur bhi hain gham zamanay mein ``Khushi`` kay siwa.

This unnatural segregation of the sexes in Pakistan and other Muslim

societies is bound to create an environment for this kind of alternate

behaviour.

But then again, all these Khush people in San Francisco?

And we joke about the Frontier?

Ras

freesoul...
speaking as one who made the point about editing...i would not say that it is low. But first of all...the word homo has been used by those who do not care for gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transsexuals in a derisive manner, and so like the happy one..I would object to the use of that term.

Secondly, it is definitely NOT low, to suggest that one check what he/she has written for mistakes, even those of us who write well such as temporal (who i hope will forgive me for using him as an example) has been known to have posts here with errors. The point is not to bring a person down, but merely to suggest (on my part at least) that if one cares so much about getting a point across, then one should also care just as much about how the person gets the point across, regardless of how little or well versed one is in angrezi. And if you still think that is low, to each his or her own.

temporal #11

>>...do you think if desis do not indulge in this practice their intellectual level would soar? <<

atleast ppl will concerntrate on rational arguments to the point. There is some chance there, dont u think?

>>...also what theories would you have about the intellectual level of millions of desis who do not comminicate in english?<<

There is nothing wrong with ppl speaking desi languages.

Throritically, intellectual level or analytical skills of any person has nothing to do with the languages he speaks. However, incidently, being educated in pakistan/india means some sort of english communication skills. So yes, English becomes a criterion of one`s education and hence analytical power. I have no bias against that. But pointing out grammatical mistakes and other minor stuff (when u exactly know what the author wants to say) is low.

stuka #12

:) good point.

I think he wants to clarify that he has no bias in favor of gays, based on his sexual orientation.

And when he says he never met any homo, it means he is coming with a `clean sheet`.

10 by freesoul:

{...it is quite pecular of South Asian ppl to mock the angrezi of other brown ppl. That is one big reason why the overall intellectual level is so low...}

this is very insgihtful...care to elaborate?

...do you think if desis do not indulge in this practice their intellectual level would soar?

...also what theories would you have about the intellectual level of millions of desis who do not comminicate in english?

rgds,

...t

``I am not a homosexual and never met any homo. ``

?? Why take the trouble of writing this article then?? How does this matter concern you??

the_happy_one #7

it is quite pecular of South Asian ppl to mock the angrezi of other brown ppl. That is one big reason why the overall intellectual level is so low.

South Asian people outside of South Asia, have a hard time coming to terms with a gay child, within South Asia, especially Pakistan gay people are putting their lives at risk, and the family... well it depends on the kind of family you have.

We live in the UK and my brother came out many years ago, it turned our family upside down. But what was surprising was the support my parents got from their circle of friends, constantly reminded that it wasn`t their fault. Its between the gay person and God. The family can only do so much, though the social stigma the family especially the parents feel, is overwhelming.