Closet

Everything said and done, homosexuality is unnatural. It is as unnatural as any un natural act like canabolism etc can be. However, as alot of people indulge in those acts so do homosexuals indulge in homosexuality.

do you have the link to the ezine?
the one in the article doesnt seem to exist..
thanks

Re: # 24
I beg to differ; if your logic is correct then ``gays`` would vanish from the face of the earth. For two reasons, firstly, there are enough structures in society of reward and punishment that we should be able to train and condition homosexuals into becoming heterosexual. Secondly, we don`t raise our children to be homosexuals, so why is it that despite the opposite nurturing, some still turn gay?
The fact that some do not choose to propagate could be to the advantage of the whole species.
In other words the reason why we see approximately 10% of homosexual behavior cross-culturally and over time proves that there is inherent advantage to the species as a whole in homosexual behavior. Perhaps it is a form of population control. ``genes promoting behavior that prevents propagation of the species would not have any descendants to whom they are passed. `` Genes are passed on because homosexuals do procreate. We do not know exactly how much of a genetic component is required to offset the nurture part. I can see that if someone was born a homosexual and they were put in an environment that such an idea could not be fulfilled in principle, then the genetic component would die out.

Hmmm. Where is this man coming from ? Enough here to keep a shrink busy for a lifetime. I suspect that the ``futile`` surfing on the internet really masks a deep desire that dare not speak its name! I won`t even bother going into the massacre of the English Language.

#108 by AAmir
>>>>
iTS GOD THING FREE SOUL THAT YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL & PPL. DONT GIVE A dAMN ABOUT YOUR HALF BAKED KNOWLEGE.


tHE MOST SENSITIVE & PROFUSELY INNERVATED WITH NERVES PER SQ.CM OF SKIN IN THE BODY IS clitoris !
<<<<

Mr. Aqalmund, read the xcerpt again (not my statement). Nowhere does it say that anus is more innervated than any other part. It just says that what anus is. If u have doubts, go and poke it....i am sure u can figure it out, if there r no unncessary psychological complications.

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Tidbit #114 Many thanks.

tahmed remove double quotes from < and >

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#106 by the_happy_one

In one breath u affirm that u r not speaking for all heterosexuals, and in another u imply: ``generally speaking male heterosexuals find the prospect of anal sex administered to them fairly forbidding``. Make up ur mind, then say something.

As far as i am concerned, I am just asking all of us to challenge our biases because the biology and psychology r quite clear on that.....nothing is un-natural, repugnant, and bestial---everyhting is just in mind. The same irrational fears that we happily employ in homophobia r also operational in racisim, xenophobia, etc.

``The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn`t mean that God doesn`t love heterosexuals. It`s just that they need more supervision.``
- Lynn Lavner

Straights

I have to confess that I still find heterosexuals just that bit weird. Its not like I`m prejudiced about them or anything. Some of my best friends are heterosexual and I`ve been to straight bars and their clubs and seen what they do.

Actually, I`m a bit different from some of you who had gay or lesbian parents because mine were straight and so I was brought up in that sort of environment. I guess I learned to be tolerant about it even though it may have led to me having problems in adjustment in my adolescence. So you see, I do understand straightness and I`ve had a lot of experience of it, its just that I still find it all a bit unnatural.

I mean I just don`t understand feeling desire for the opposite gender. Hasn`t anyone ever emphasised that word `opposite` to them? How can you have a personal relationship with someone who has a whole different biology from you? You haven`t a hope of understanding them with all those differing hormonal cycles, times of sexual maturity, and social conditioning. And your partner will have a fundamentally different body from you and that means you will not know how to work it in any sexual act. Can you imagine all the fumblings they have to go through to get even a rudimentary proficiency?

And there is something right about going off with someone of the same gender. There is something complete about it. Its like matching sets. I have always been quite fascinated by the appearance of identical twins in gay male porn and I feel it points to some essential lesson here. You are going off with someone who is the same as you. Admittedly you are only approaching that goal of identity where you have exactly the same body and the innate psychic understanding of identical twins, but at least you are getting there. You will be having a relationship where you can fuse almost completely, if not quite. Heterosexuals can never even hope to achieve this fusion of identity with those oddly dissimilar bodies and minds that never seem to mesh together.

And breeding. I do understand that they breed and so they were once necessary for the continuity of the race. I like to think, though, we`ve advanced beyond all that brutish stuff. I consider these breeding behaviours just like I think of my appendix, you know, vestigal. I mean nowdays breeding, if it needs to be done, can be performed cleanly and effectively with a teaspoon of semen from one gay man being delivered to a lesbian woman in a 10ml syringe.

With the world population in the state that its in, and all those billions expected to double over the next century, there are good arguments for banning heterosexuals from breeding. Gay and lesbian kids in the year 2100 will be looking around their over-crowded world, eating all those processed soya and yeast products, mourning the loss of the world`s natural resources as the temperature soars and the acid rain comes tumbling down, and they`ll be thinking `Heterosexuals did this`. There are good arguments for stepping in now and stopping it while we still can.

And then a lot of them persist in bringing up their children to believe that heterosexuality is normal. I know mine did. This meant I might have had a few problems coming to terms with who I really was. There are actually those who are so influenced by this prevailing mindset that they never, ever come to realise who they really are and persist in the heterosexual life like it was a bad habit.

They are also so militant about it, forcing it down everyone`s throats and lobbying government for legislation in support of their lifestyles. To be honest I get sick of turning on the television and having to watch them kissing and having sex. Its no wonder gay and lesbian kids get confused with this barrage of heterosexual propaganda.

And the natural consequence of all this maladjustment is war. The history of heterosexual warfare since the dawn of time is fairly dismal. You can see how it happens too. Not only have they been prevented from reaching out to the fulfillment of their true gay or lesbian identities and so they are blocked and frustrated, but it is all that stuff about opposite genders that creates this environment of difference. Wars are fought between opposites. They are a straight reflection of exactly what is going on in your average heterosexual relationship. It is interesting, I always think, to observe that gay and lesbian bars and clubs are singularly nonviolent compared to their heterosexual counterparts. In my opinion our essential peacefulness is based on the fact that our relationships are relationships of similarity, not combative opposition like theirs. It sort of makes you want to get the United Nations to subsidise a intense media campaign saying things like `Turn Gay Or Lesbian And Achieve Peace For All Humankind`.

Now I am fairly liberal, I like to think, but a limit is a limit and sometimes I think that I`ve reached it. I am as tolerant as the next gay or lesbian and I can see that some people may have a need for heterosexual behavior. I`m happy for them to do it. I just resent the fact that they are destroying the world politically and ecologically while they do it. I resent the fact that they are creating an atmosphere of violence which is even intruding into our clubs and bars, when it used to be outside. I also get annoyed that their prevailing atmosphere of propaganda is creating maladjustment in our gay and lesbian kids. Its just not right.

I`d like to think that psychiatry can get onto the job. Then I`d also like to think that gender-segregated schools with lots of pro-gay and lesbian lessons might help. Banning heterosexual propaganda in the media might help and there should be a rigorous quota of good healthy gay and lesbian role models. I do feel there should be population laws so that we do not all have to suffer the consequences of their unnatural behaviors. But heterosexuals are a problem, aren`t they and I obviously haven`t got all the answers. I just think its time we said `enough is enough` and clamped down. Someone`s got to start the ball rolling.

Those last two jokes were taken from websites that feature jokes about heterosexuals....

tahmed32 #107

``<``IMG SRC=``http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/otn/laughing/yelrotflmao.gif````>``


just remove the double quotes from

more smileys at: www.mysmilies.com

eNJOY

tdbit #101 thanks for the link. I searched chaathouse and miserably failed to find anything related to nice guys fininshing last. Perhaps if you would do me one more favor and let me know the title of the article....I must learn how to draw this yo-yo`s and guys-with-tongues-sticking-out on chowk.
So far this is all I can do :-)
pathetic.

Re: Freesoul,

I do not claim to speak for all avowed heterosexuals. That would mean speaking for 5.9 billion humans. It speaks volumes about your cognitive abilities if you got that impression!

Are you denying that generally speaking male heterosexuals find the prospect of anal sex administered to them fairly forbidding?? If you do you obviously have been living under a rock.

As far as I am concerned this discussion has gone on long enough and you can now crawl back under your rock where all heterosexual males sing kumbayah while poking each other’s pumpkins.

#102 by the_happy_one

u r also being very presumptuous to think that u can speak for all heterosexuals. maybe this `painful maneuver` and `cringing effect` r ur own experince. Some women find normal intercourse painful....and they r referred to sexologists...Sometimes it is medical problem, sometimes just pshycological, and the good thing is that it is usually cured.

Also,

Is it not a fact that every person is neither 100% hetro or homosexual. Based on genes and social factors, one side can be dominant and the other repressed or comatose. So what is so strange, if a guy prefers a girl for marriage and then explores other options? If it does not happen much (and hence all the blame on such orientation-confused ppl), then maybe social repression is one factor here.

Its really hard to beleive that despite being homosexuals..these ppl marry to the opposite sex and destroy two lives at the sametime. If they think that they cannot face the society by disclosing that they are homosexual..atleast they can stand for themselves..and say that they would lead a bachelor life...don`t they have any sense at all?...how do ppl make such an imp decision of live a game...I seriously pity those innocent girls..

OK, First up...

I guess it was rather presumptuous of me so here`s a clarrification! Norm McDonald is a comedian. The weekend update is a segment on Saturday Night Live. The `poll` was a joke!

Secondly...

Freesoul, knowing fully well that this is a slippery slope let me offer you that there is a significant difference between getting a rim job and having an object of substantial diameter thrust up your Kit and Kibbutle.

Straight men cringe neither at the thought of thier anus being stimulated nor at the prospect of inserting their thingie up another carbon based life form`s back door. They cringe simply at the grim prospect of being at the business end of this rather painful maneuver. And this cringing I reckon they`re very well entitled to.

tahmed: check out the links on nice guys finish last wala board chaathouse parr...

#96 by temporal

u should read my relies twise. First time did not have much effect on u, i guess.

Not all women r illiterate and poor. If an educated working woman do let their lives manipulated by others than their share of blame is far greater than any illiterate poor woman. But everyone is responsible for the acts hes/he wither committed and/or willingly let others commit on themselves.

Is it too difficult to understand?

#94 by freesoul

[``Anal Stimulation and Intercourse: Because the anus has many nerve endings, it can produce intense erotic responses. Both homosexual and heterosexual couples use stimulation of the anus....``]

and

[``I think many ppl show their disgust to anal pleasures on moral (read religous) and traditional grounds. If ppl r open to new things and courageously challenge their biases, the poll result would be quite different.``]

Freesoul bhai saab, interesting thought indeed. I think the ultimate gift that a woman (the feminazi type) can offer a man is her tight, pulsating anus. However, all women that I have known are not ``open`` to the idea of enjoying ``anal pleasures`` i.e not willing to ``challenge their baises`` :-( so backward and non-progressive of them :-(

Have you met any progressive chicks lately?

(submission follows these two quotes)

#85 by freesoul:

Actually, it is becoming fashionable to blame society, and start puffing cigs in unaffected manner.

This is as much girl`s fault as man`s fault. y should a girl be stupid enough to marry a man who is gay? And why should she suffer ater she knows he is gay? is she not educated?

It is time we start looking into mirror before blaming some vague culprit (society)

and

#95 by freesoul:

I just want to say that `dont make society as a villian`. What society is? It is nothing but a general manifestation of all of us. if an educated girl is dumb enough to marry a starnger, then she is answerable to none but herself if her hubby turns out gay, impotent, abusive, or alcoholic. Some risks r always worth taking, but major issues on which the marriage stands, can not be just God to manipulate.

I am sick and tired of ppl projecting educated women as victims in all such cases. No one is victim. We all contribute to rigidity of society in one way or other. If we do not have the courage to challenge biases and traditions, we should all weep at the corner, and not some public form. This is unacceptable victim mentality.


(taking some deep breaths…)


freesoul sahib:


which society are you talking about? Surely it cannot be Pakistani society…where the majority of people are uneducated and women are treated just a tad above chattel status…where the young women succumb to economic and societal pressures …and marrying the two-legged animal paraded before her…

(since this whole discussion has been generated by this article…and the author is trying to highlight the plight of homosexuals in that country…you cannot jump countries or societies and blare about other far off places…

next time before you misinterpret shanzeh1 or navaid or feel `sick and tired` may i be audacious enough to repeat here your wise words that perhaps you wrote but did not fully comprehend?

It is time we start looking into mirror before blaming some vague culprit (society)

regards,

t

tahmed saab,
carry on.......

Tidbit #90 That face sticking its tongue is neat. How do you do it?

khamkhwa #87 ``The sooner you get off your high horse the better for all of us.``
What exactly is it that I am writing that troubles you so much. Please cut and paste, and if possible explain how that puts me on a high horse. I will be much obliged.

#89 by the_happy_one

From a sex education book:

``Anal Stimulation and Intercourse: Because the anus has many nerve endings, it can produce intense erotic responses. Both homosexual and heterosexual couples use stimulation of the anus by fingers or mouth as a source of sexual arousal and engage in penile penetration of the anus...``

I think many ppl show their disgust to anal pleasures on moral (read religous) and traditional grounds. If ppl r open to new things and courageously challenge their biases, the poll result would be quite different.

#86 by nawaid

I just want to say that `dont make society as a villian`. What society is? It is nothing but a general manifestation of all of us. if an educated girl is dumb enough to marry a starnger, then she is answerable to none but herself if her hubby turns out gay, impotent, abusive, or alcoholic. Some risks r always worth taking, but major issues on which the marriage stands, can not be just God to manipulate.

I am sick and tired of ppl projecting educated women as victims in all such cases. No one is victim. We all contribute to rigidity of society in one way or other. If we do not have the courage to challenge biases and traditions, we should all weep at the corner, and not some public form. This is unacceptable victim mentality.

the_happy_one #89
Your post explained some things I did not consider. The poll figure you quoted was interesting.

Re: Brat (66)

Some people think that extreme homophobia exhibited by ostentatiously heterosexual men towards gay men is a violent manifestation of latent homosexuality within themselves. These are typically religious men who are over-ridden with guilt driven into them by their pastors who eloquently tee off on gays every Sunday. Remember the Mathew Shepard case in Laramie Wyoming?

But then there is ‘natural’ disgust too. I think this is quite forgivable considering all that is involved in an act of anal sex. The disgust is not simply due to the thought of two people of the same gender engaging in a sexual act, I don’t know any man who’s ‘disgusted’ with two lipstick lesbians going at each other. It’s the anal sex that is disgusting to some people.

Reminds me of a famous Norm McDonald quip from his days at the helm of weekend update and it went something like this:
“In a recent survey it was found that 85% of Americans have no objection to gay relationships. When reminded however that gay relationships often involve anal penetration, the number dropped sharply to 25%”.

mastram2: interesting point...though i still think `condemned by society` wala rule applies...

stuka:

shanez1: you brought a good point to discussion. There is a very valid question that what happens when a gay man marries due to social pressure. (we can assume that without social pressure he`d not want to marry or if he does he`s at least bisexual or in denial)

I have also heard of the complications people get into when gay men (the topic being restricted to gay men), marry and have children for `society`s sake`. The guy is not happy, the girl is not who he wants to be with, both of them are eventually unhappy. Besides the married guy over time may have affairs with men - which only makes the situation worse for both and not better.

What you said shanzeh1 was sad, the guy resorted to beating, and other forms of abuse. Abuse is abuse, whether it comes from a gay guy or a straight guy. But because of this we can`t assume that the guy turned abusive because he was gay and married to this woman (maybe he would have been abusive if he`d lived with a guy too? maybe not). Nor can we assume that All gay men who marry women end up being abusive. And I think shanezh1 you agree on this. I`m just elaborating, because this seems to be one thing that bothers other people too.

adnan_rafiq: I know gay men who have been pressured to get married, and they have resisted. Believe me it`s not easy, it`s draining, parents and relatives use all the emotions they can find and it`s not easy for the guy to keep saying - i just dont` want to get married, because in our culture - people naturally assume that `something is wrong` when someone (man or woman) does not want to marry and has not had any obvious visible contact with a person of the opposite sex. No?
Also, as discussed in this article to some degree, coming out to friends and family is not easy either. Given so many misconceptions - gay men assume they are better off in the closet than outside, and some of the time rightly so.

tahmed32: I must say that I respect that you`re openly expressing your opinion - most people would not.

And I know that there are others on this board who find the idea of sex between two men not acceptable. I`ve met people too, who openly state that `look I don`t care for what they do, as long as I don`t know about it`. I am trying to figure out why is the preference of some other fellow human beings repulsive to some people. Why do people get so worked up about this?

The argument that `it`s not natural` is too easy. There are other things that are not `natural` that may not repulse us. We`re talking about (gay or straight) sex between two consenting adults. For example, personally bondage and all the other S&M stuff at the most scares me, and at the very least I`m neutral about and know for sure that I will never be a part of something like that - because it does not click for me (no funny comments from rsaxena, stuka or any other guy on this!).

#85 by freesoul

{This is as much girl`s fault as man`s fault. y should a girl be stupid enough to marry a man who is gay? And why should she suffer ater she knows he is gay? is she not educated? }

how can she know beofre marriage, if someone not going to tell her?

You are right for after marriage thing, but getting divorced....ummmm....., still scoiety not going to believe her if gay man denies it. and its not easy for a divorcee woman to get marry again.the second important thing is children, if they hav children then hav to sacrifice......
[And y should a gay man marry a girl? r gays not MEN enough to stand up to pressure}

I guess its only easy to say......not every one can take society`s pressure specially living in muslim society.

tahmed#83

In the immortal words of lajwantii...i am a fried don otan geryes?
The sooner you get off your high horse the better for all of us.As for
one liners...haven`t got enough ``wisdom`` to pontificate like most of the interactors ;)

#72 by shanzeh1

>>>Why do poor girls have to pay for their husbands` problems and for our so-called society`s lack of effort to even understand what makes a man gay. On top of the many problems that Pakistani girls face every day of their lives, they now have to wonder whether or not their future spouse IS GAY. This is neither the man`s fault....or the girl`s fault. This is society`s fault. <<<<


Actually, it is becoming fashionable to blame society, and start puffing cigs in unaffected manner.

This is as much girl`s fault as man`s fault. y should a girl be stupid enough to marry a man who is gay? And why should she suffer ater she knows he is gay? is she not educated?

And y should a gay man marry a girl? r gays not MEN enough to stand up to pressure?

It is time we start looking into mirror before blaming some vague culprit (society)

Reply sac #64

``This field requires your eminence to shed some light. I`ve been told that desis don`t do it............................... ``

What a relief! I thought it was just me...

khamkhwa #81 ``how about replying to #63,#68 and #78.``
On #78 from ramis: I accept charges that I spelled ``urdu`` as ``utdu``, and am ready to jump in a river to kill myself out of shame for this typo.
I also admit guilty to considering NJ to be a jerk, and to having also criticized his communication skills. Can I have a last cigarette before being executed?
On #68 and #78 from you: I must admit being too lazy to go back to read what you wrote. I know you write some one-liners (and commend you for that, which is better than what most of us including myself do), and I am sure you are right in whatever you wrote. Give yourself a pat in the back for being right and for being brief.

tahmed#80
[I am learning a lot today.]

Good! how about replying to #63,#68 and #78.

sac #71 I knew a paki midget (or close enough - he was 5 foot 1 inch) who got more dates than he could handle. He explained (to the rest of us who were then single and therefore could only watch enviously as he cleaned out the chicken coop) the reason in one word: kinky.
So dont underestimate the subconscious yearnings a shiny head brings out in some women.

stuka #74 Your argument (guys dont need foreplay) is the first acceptable argument in favor of the gay school of thought (or the peshawar school of thought, as it is known in pakistan) that I have heard.

shanzeh1 #72 That argument (gays who are married in pakistan due to social pressures, and then proceed to take their frustrations out on their wives) is the second acceptable argument for accepting gays for what they are in soceity that I have heard.
Also, urstruly`s argument (bald guys are aerodynamic, with umarmurtaza performing a scientific experiment to prove the thesis) is the first acceptable argument for accepting bald guys for what they are in society that I have heard.
I am learning a lot today.

re: shanzeh1
[ ... This is neither the man`s fault....or the girl`s fault. This is society`s fault. ...]

And all this time I was under the impression that society consists of men and women. I`m sorry, but if someone`s gay, and he knowingly marries a girl then he should be the first one to blame. Unlike women in our culture, a man can refuse to get married and still lead an independent and financially secure life. And trust me, after a while, people will stop hounding him to tie the knot; a luxury very few women are afforded.

Urstruly,

Regarding your comment #75, that`s so right. I can do 100 meters in just over 12 seconds.

Tahmed,

The lions in Mozambique are very aggressive and eat humans for lunch. They also happen to be bald and tests on them show that they have very high levels of testosterone. sac is prolly just jealous `cos he`s got long hair growing out of his nostrils also :)

Umer M.

#73 by tahmed32

uor message prove you more jerk then NJ. How low one could be to comment someone`s comunication skills:)

and its not (utdu) , its Urdu .

stop jerking and get a life.

One great advantage that bald people have over `normal` people is that they are relatively more aerodynamic.

Tidbit:

``dont mean to presumptuous but figures show tht gays are more promiscuous?? ``

ya, that`s coz gay sex involves two guys...and all guys are horndogs regardless if they are gay or straight...guys will f#ck anyone..women have hangups on ``being in love etc`` before having sex, so less sex :(

I feel this is a very relevant discussion for Pakistanis today. I know of many gay men who are married to decent Pakistani girls simply because of social reasons: to save their family name, to make their parents happy, etc etc. One girl I know has been married to a gay man for the past 6 years. Out of sheer frustration, this man started beating her.....this is on top of spending nights out of the house, being openly gay, bringing shame to HER family, making her act like his doll so he could play dress up with her, and other really weird things. Shouldn`t society realize the repercussions of making gay men marry? Why do poor girls have to pay for their husbands` problems and for our so-called society`s lack of effort to even understand what makes a man gay. On top of the many problems that Pakistani girls face every day of their lives, they now have to wonder whether or not their future spouse IS GAY. This is neither the man`s fault....or the girl`s fault. This is society`s fault. And I thank NJ for making ppl think about this......

NJ #70 Your post is as nonsensical as your article. Forget gays or g----s (in utdu) or whatever. Take a communications class instead (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a jerk in real life, and simply come across as one when you write).

re tAhmed #67:

Dude, I like you so I`ll explain.

Unless your name is Vin Diesel or Barry Diller, the percentage of women that like bald men is the same that likes midgets. Hair treatment(Rogaine, Propeica, hair plugs etc.) is a $6 billion a year business for the same reason.

Baldness like color blindness is genetic. If your father and grandfather are bald, you have a 70% chance of being bald by the time you are 40. So if baldness is genetic and confers a sexual disadvantage, it would make sense that the number of bald people in general population would decline. Scientists have seen no such evidence. The percentage of bald people has remained pretty steady. Same thing with color blindness.

Its not easy to explain away the presence or disapperance of traits based on genetic theory alone. There are a lot of missing pieces to the puzzle. But the evidence so far is largely in favour of sexual orientation being determined at birth rather than after.

Now let me go play with the Field Marshal.

later
-sac

Dear readers

I am sorry; I should have come earlier but due to other commitments (not the homo ones)…………. Ok I had no idea that word Homo would start that much debate here…………….i do know this word is kind of insulting but I never had any intention to do so, but as you people are suggesting, may be unintentionally I did insult homosexuals, may be because I am also a part of society and intentionally or unintentionally we don’t miss any chance to taunt on homosexuals, transsexuals etc. So I admit I am feeling guilty on my neck but I believe although I am guilty not responsible. I apologize, if any homosexual is reading, for using the word homo, I had no intention to insult u and If I wanted to insult I have better word in Urdu which you know what is it.

Some of the members remind me of my father who always remained concerned about my communication skills…all I can say” I try”. On use of the word “Making out”…neither I understand what’s the problem with it nor I care much. I am not sure most Chowk readers do have time to analyze what is politically correct or what is incorrect after all we are not Bill Maher , I owe a responsibility to Khurram and I thought putting his feelings on Chowk might help to highlight this issue, although Chowk don’t attract the masses addressed in the article. Those who think this issue is not important to discuss, if you visit Pakistani gay websites and their chatting channels, you will realize its not as least important as you guys are thinking.

Some of my friends raised questions which I can’t answer as how much I can try I can’t think with the mind of a homosexuals…if any one (which I am sure no one) interested to talk with Khurram you can reach him at boyjone_pk@yahoo.com.

Thanks again for all comments, see you people again with some other item.

Allah Hafiz

N.J

..oh my, lot of excited men on the gay board...have fun, people...adios...

tahmed#65

[each others smelly bodies]

Words of disdain ? Or do they really smell??

sac #64 I thought women considered baldness to equal virility and so baldies had an edge over the rest of us. You seem to know better.
btw, I dont know how bald casanovas, or lack thereof, has anything to do with my conclusions.

khamkhwa #63 You ask ``Do you see the hypocricy? ``
No. Please enlighten.

I don`t know too much about this sex gene theory, but I do know that homosexuals like the rest of the society have the right to be who they are, and they shouldn`t have to hide or `do things in private`. In south-asian culture, and in some places a woman and a man still cannot hold hands, let alone kiss in public etc. It`s a different culture. But in `western` culture people do - so people of any sexual orientation should be able to express their affections without being harrassed about it.

I also want to explore this feeling of `disgust` towards the sexual practices among people of different sexual orientation. Why is that many people find this disgusting? Because it`s not natural? Nature itself, I believe, does not promote `conformity` but rather `growth` or `change`.
Of course not many people would confess to these feelings, simply because it`s not politically correct to do so, so it`s better to be quiet than to say what they feel. Obviously if you don`t identify as a homosexual, you will find that the expressions between two people of your own sex are not attractive to you, but I would imagine that it would bring a feeling of `neutrality`. It would not excite your imagination, but why would it disgust people?

re tahmed32 #59:

``Thus, my original conclusion on this point...``

er....is completely bogus. How many bald casanovas do you know?

re ZafarA #61:

``Bugger (!) the inferences, I want to know the stats for desis...``

This field requires your eminence to shed some light. I`ve been told that desis don`t do it...............................

later
-sac

tahmed#60
[not to point fingers at others]

tahmed#59
[if two men wish to enjoy each others smelly bodies in private]

Do you see the hypocricy?

Reply sac #51

``Now taking your question in earnest, according to a widely quoted study the average gay person(whatever that means) in America has more than 70 sexual partners in their lifetime. The number for a white guy is between 10 and 15. For white women its 4-10. Draw your own inferences.``

Bugger (!) the inferences, I want to know the stats for desis...

(Also, this white guy/woman are straight? Or is this the average?)

Mr Stuka, please email me on zafreallyzaf@yahoo.com regarding a COMPLETELY unrelated matter - ie lassi at bengali market.

maulabux #55 I am glad you feel the need to excuse your insults towards the happy one since this means maybe we will get more mature posts from you in future on chowk.
And indeed I am flattered that you should present these excuses to me as a schoolchild does to the schoolmaster. As your schoolmaster, therefore, let me respond by asking you not to hide behind excuses, not to point fingers at others, and try not to repeat this mistake again.
Now do 50 pushups to remind you not to repeat this mistake again. Class dismissed!! :-)

mastram2 #56 I think my response to sac below also applies to the point you make about gene Xq28 (actually, it is a region containing genes in the x chromosome). I see from google that there are gay websites on it (my first search brought out a Thai gay web site!!), but clearly the conclusion they draw is not supported by science. That is, with the decoding of the human genome we are still far from understanding how human behavior is determined. But it is quite clear even at this stage that genes alone do not determine it.
Thus, my original conclusion on this point - namely that a person is not pre-determined to be gay at time of birth, and that external influences play a significant role.
Having said all this, I agree of course that if two men wish to enjoy each others smelly bodies in private, I have no problem with that. They just need to stop making a virtue out of it and claiming that this is the natural order of things when all evidence and logic points the other way.

sac #54 The underlying point you make - namely, that genes alone do not determine behavior - is of course correct. However, I think you will agree that genes are the sole determinant of the hormonal mix in an individual. Nor is the hormonal mix the sole determinant of human behavior. External influences play a significant role in many different ways. For example, get invited to her apartment by an attractive co-worker, and your sex hormones will increase regardless of what the genes have to say about it. Similarly, get chased by a lion and a different set of hormones start pumping.
Thus, while gays make a big deal about the ``sex gene`` (I discuss that separately in my response to mastram2), I think they are kidding themselves.

sac #54 In my response to your post #54 I forgot a ``not``. The sentence ``I think you will agree that genes are the sole determinant...`` should read ``I think you will agree that genes are NOT the sole determinant....``.

Hehe

``disingenious`` indeed, tahmed32.

and about insults and verbosity, you should go through mr. the_happy_ones post too.

toodles,
H.

re tahmed32 sahab

The gene that shows high positive correlation with homosexuality in men is Xq28 and is present on (as the name suggests) the X chromosome of the 23rd pair. Whether it is a biological determinant of homosexuality in men is ofcourse not known. Since it`s on X chromosome in men, it is inherited from the mother and as such does not mean that it would select itself out of the gene pool in one generation.
Your other suggestion that gay people are individuals having difficulty building relationships with people of the opposite sex is laughable. How many gay men do you know in US? If popular culture and some people I know are to be believed, gay men form very close friendships with women.

re tidbit #53
If evolutionary psychology is to be believed, men are naturally inclined to be more promiscous than women because men have billions of small gametes and women have one large gamete per month. Since women are more selective, heterosexual men are forced to be less promiscous than they would like to be. However, no such constraint exists for homosexual men and they are more promiscous. I do not know if lesbian women on average have more partners than heterosexual women. Evolutionary theories would suggest that they will not and ``condemned by society`` theory suggests that they will.

sac # 51: tis ok :)....dont mean to presumptuous but figures show tht gays are more promiscuous?? wonder why?? could it be that they`re condemned by society so they try to live up to that??

re tahmed32:

Your gay gene theory doesn`t fly. Firstly because it may not be genetic but hormonal. The latest research is that gays have an excess hormone in the lower parts of their brains compared to `normal` men. Secondly if it indeed is genetic, who says gays don`t enter heterosexual marriages. I know quite a few.

later
-sac

re Tidbit #30:

I thought you weren`t serious. I apologize.

Now taking your question in earnest, according to a widely quoted study the average gay person(whatever that means) in America has more than 70 sexual partners in their lifetime. The number for a white guy is between 10 and 15. For white women its 4-10. Draw your own inferences.

re saminashah #48:

For once surprise me.........be original. You`ve got nothing to lose but your hangups.

later
-sac(hopefully a breeder)

Seems like there are two controversial issues and one implicitly non-controversial issue on this board, as follows:
Controversial Issue 1: Are gays good or bad? And corollary: Are those who think gays are bad themselves bad. My conclusion: This is a meaningless issue, not worth wasting even ``chowk time`` on.
Controversial Issue 2: Is it OK to use deviate from the standard form of the english language? Thanks to poster ``happy one`` for raising this issue. My conclusion: Most of the time (at least using examples from this article and from various posts it is not OK). Reason: Most of the time (in case of the writer of this article, and in case of poster moulabux) he is clearly trying to use words and phrases that he either misspells (NOT mistypes, as moulabux claims, but simply cant spell - as in case of his use of the word ``disingenious`` as the happy one pointed out, causing moulabux to respond by posting insults to the happy one). OR, worse, whose meaning he does not understand. As in case of the writer of this article inviting gays to ``make out with him`` (clearly unaware of the meaning of this phrase, which is an invitation to come screw him). Happy One was correct in pointing this out. This of course is the common disease among many pakistani ``educated`` people: trying to impress people with the use of words they dont really understand, or snappy phrases, rather than trying to write thoughtfully and clearly. Ludos, I mean kudos :-) , to the happy one for making this an issue on a board where the main issue (as above) is a superficial one.
Noncontroversial Issue: This is where I pointed out that, there cant be any such thing as ``gay genes``, since by logic these would have been dead end genes that the ``gay couple`` would not have any descendants to pass on to. And as such, gays can stop acting as if they are represent anything more than (a) another form of kinky sex and/or (b) individuals having difficulty building relationships with people of the opposite sex. They cant claim they are built this way. I assume the silence means that all those politically correct people on this board agree on this point.

the_happy_one,

leaving spelling errors and punctuation mistakes aside, you also make the point for me. You somehow perilously assumed that I implied homosexuals are more prone to rape than heterosuxuals. Your counter statements are self-defeating.

and I don`t itend to make this a personal battle ground. You tell me of growing an IQ, while all you do is spew self contradictory balderdash.
You`ve an IQ of a 4 year old. [and i`m sure he was glad to get rid of it.]

the_happy_one,

leaving spelling errors and punctuation mistakes aside, you also make the point for me. You somehow perilously assumed that I implied homosexuals are more prone to rape than heterosuxuals. Your counter statements are self-defeating.

And about spouting off asinine drivel , speak for youeself. All you`ve done [so far ; and the future isn`t too bright either] is spew self contradictory balderdash. You`ve an IQ of a 4 year old. [and i`m sure he was glad to get rid of it.]

H.

Deewar,
Breeders are an interesting lot, some of us more than others...start using that term for hets and see how quickly Sac and his lot start thinking about terminology...but of course, some of refuse to deal...we get off on our use of the word ``homo``-even though every culture and language has a term for being queer that was chosen by the queer community-so that not using the terms the khush community defines themselves with is a bit of a power play. Noor`s right; call a African American person a ``negro`` over here and see how much time people are going to waste in sympathy while you hide behind some of the excuses we`ve read on this board....and I dont mean the writer Sahib who I believe as Scout opined should be commended for opening up the discussion, but for the breeders who should know better....

The amount of trouble that I went through to create a new e-mail address to be able to register at this web site and pen down my two cents’ worth should speak for itself when it comes to a desi queer’s self-consciousness at putting forth something as simple as ‘his point of view’ on the subject. But first things first:

I wonder what locale of my dear country you are referring to ramiskhan when you say that ‘homo’ and ‘making out’ have the seemingly innocuous meanings that you put forth as the norm of everyday vernacular in ‘big cities like Karachi’. The author’s naivete aside, ‘homo’ is not the word of choice when one wants to refer to a fellow homo erectus who belongs to the happy clan. And may God have mercy on the poor beings that agree to ‘make out’ on important issues of geo-political and/or national security. And before temporal’s gut gives another heave, I think ‘intellect’ is favoured over ‘intellectual level’. Or shall I take my foot outta ma mouth?

Why does the notion of a serious relationship or more precisely the concept of a monogamous same-sex relationship seem so absurd? And the question, believe me, is addressed to people on both sides of the happy divide. My relative inexperience at interacting with fellow happy people limits me in pronouncing a judgement but I have yet to see the concept given any credence by both straight and gay people alike.

all those who question the relevance of the homosexuality issue: please read the_happy_one reply#16 – “Gay people don’t want special rights, they just want all the rights that straight people have. The rights to marry, adopt, show affection in public, eat burgers, fart, take roller coaster rides, fight in the military, go bungee jumping, dance, pray, joke and play cricket. They are not looking for a positive reaction from you, they are hoping for no reaction at all.” Thank you the_happy_one. I’d be honest with you, this particular piece was the reason why I even went to the trouble of ‘interacting’ on this board. But alas, I have yet to see a post that even vaguely begins to accept this prescription.

So my point of view? Let me just second what I’ve transcript-ed above and say kudos to the_happy_one. That and the fact that in another 15 minutes I need to have my butt in me boss’ room with a 5-pager report (in a VERY non anally challenged context ofcourse! She’s a she you see).

I am beginning to suspect that heterosexuals are a low IQ cult....or perhaps part of one massive alien conspiracy to take life as we know it to the verge of extinction....I mean, all this breeding cant really be good .... can it ?

Btw...someone mentioned the Kinsey report.... its a funny little report. Says many many heterosexuals---oh well, I mean people with more than incidental or exclusively heterosexual experience--- like their rear end being poked while having a heterosexual go at the opposite sex. Something is rotten in Denmark...dont you think ? Perhaps Kinsey is a member of the counter hetero cult. Less low IQ, but low still. Perhaps he just made it up to support his spectrum of sexuality/continuum of sexuality theory.

I dont understand whats so wonderful about this allegedly predominantly hetereosexual world which homosexuality will destroy ? And I cant also think of much that would be wonderful in an equally homosexual world. Well, except that there might be fewer people.

I notice that most things have opposittes. Dark-Light, Black-White...its a kind of natural thing, isnt it ? Wouldnt it be a bit unnatural if heterosexuality didnt have its oppositte i.e Homosexuality !

Are only homosexual humans bad ? Or homosexual dolphins too ? Or homosexual Iguanas ? Or bisexual cats ? Personally, I am scared to death of heterosexual snakes.

Oh i really dont know. But variety is quite wonderful. Dont you think ?

ramiskhan...
first of all...you have no idea what i was referring to when I made that statement. I have no quarrel with what the writer has said...nor do I see this completely from my society`s perspective (which culture and society I belong to is and always has been questionable anyway)...I have not been away from Pakistan long enough to know that even the word `nigger` is what you would call a normal term in Pakistan. Yes, we Pakistanis shorten words, and use terms we read in books thinking that it is normal, because the social significance/context/whatever of these terms are not explained to us. We can call ourselves Pakis, but heaven forbid a white Britisher should say that to us. Or is that now normal as well? And while we`re talking about normal terms...is it still normal to call a Christian like me a `choora` in Pakistan?
I think this is a good article...but I will say as I have before...doublecheck, read and reread before you submit something...this applies to all of us. I don`t have a problem with the writer`s english. I`m glad ramiskhan sahib, that you don`t have a problem with the word homo in Karachi...just be aware that the shortened version of homosexual has been used in beatings of gays here, as a serious insult, not just kind of an insult. I love my `khush` friends dearly and am always startled when I see words such as `homo`. It was not my intention to make a big deal, or see this from just one perspective.
and I will not be returning to this board...so please don`t even bother replying to me at least..because i will not be reading it.
thanks for your time, and peace!

i havent see any remarks from any homosexuals here, chowk`s readership dont have any queer ?
and most suprisingly not many Indian bursting to show they have doing better from Paksitan. SWEET DREAMS

39# by nooralain [but then i realize just how much this place is in need of broader minded people} LOOK WHO IS TALKING!

I am surprise that people are more interested in communication skills rather then issue, which part of the article you didn’t get? If you got all then what’s wrong with the communication? Why is important to set high standards of English. Is it necessary to have only those articles on Chowk where most of the readers have to look into dictionary? After a long time I read something different on Chowk, which is not repeating same, politics, India & Pakistan, Jihad, USA, Women issues etc.

What’s wrong with the word homo?

Happy_a_day and Nooralain…. its seem you people never been to Pakistan or atleast not in recent years. Homo is the term, which is most commonly, used to identify homosexuals in Pakistani society; may be in the places where you live it kind of insulting but in paki land its normal,I am,being a paksitani living in karachi cant see any bias or insult in it. Remember, the writer is the one who is bringing this issue, why you thought he want to insult the community? You don’t have to see everything in your society’s prospective.

``Making out``, again Happy_A_DAY, its not writer’s fault if you are not aware of use of this terms in Pakistan especially big cities like Khi. It’s clear that writer is referring to Khurram’s agreement to open his thoughts and I have seen many people in Khi use this term in similar meanings quite often, irrespective of its actual meaning.. how many meanings the word fu*k has , NOT EVEN AN ACTUAL WORD?

Freesoul is right, intellectual level of brown skin is very low, how can those people comment on sexual discrimination, who themselves involve in discrimination based on standards of English.

Links pasted in #1 by Freesoul give very good info to understand homosexual life in Pakistan.

the author is naive to writing and the usage of politically correct terminology......we shouldn`t make fun of his naivete or criticize him so harshly. not all of us grew up in a Western `politically correct` society.
not all of us learned to speak and write English perfectly in school.

what is good is that this author is expanding his knowledge and understanding about this controversial subject....and allowing others the chance to express their opinions about it.

Re: moulabux

Firstly: What is `disingenius`?

Secondly: So you agree that homosexual are as guilty or innocent of rape as are heterosexuals? You make my point for me! You were the one implying that somehow homosexuals are more prone to rape than heterosexuals. Any and every statistic will prove your point duly laughable.

I suggest you first grow an IQ before spouting off since until the time that you cultivate some basic cognitive abilities all that will drool from you will be asinine drivel.

warm regards.

#23 by Tidbit on November 19, 2002 0:15am PT

somone once told me that there`s actual love involved in same-sex relationships instead of mindless sex....is that true? (pardon my ignorance)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tidbit,

Yes that is true, my brother had a boyfriend for many years, they were very emotionally involved with each other. When they broke up, they went through the same pain and agony that every normal couple goes through. Many gay people are looking for a monogomous relationship, and some are not, just like straight people.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

reading some of the comments here, i feel like giving up on this Chowk qaum altogether...but then i realize just how much this place is in need of broader minded people, and that most if not all of you should not be taken seriously.
khudahafiz!

the_happy_one,

What a disingenius arguement to make.
By that token, nothing can ever be written about any homosexual ills because someone will always point certain heterosexual ills that they perceive to be a greater one.

Sal

``I am extremely shocked that...there would be this many gay people in Pakistan, i can unsderstand india, but pakistan...``

Dude, what the hell are you implying?? Why is it understandable for India to have more gays than Pakistan? Hain? You think we are a nation of gay people?

We have larger population than you. Obviously, our people have way more straight sex than your people. Besides, everyone knows that Pathans are rearenders in a sensual sense. That means proportion of gays in Pakistan is way more than in India.

#31 by Urstruly

>>I am all for the equal rights of anally challenged people.<<

Funny that gays would think of u as `anally challenged `, as u do not use the rear hole to its fullest capabilities as much as they do :)

#27 by moulabux

>>There was one who used to visit our school too, and have quite a good time, until the administration got whiff of his activities. He used to harass schoolboys<<<

and u boys wanted free candies, huh?

;)

we have people on these pages who advocate teaching ahemdis a lesson. pretty soon, nwfp will have a govt that believes that a woman`s hair is something evil. reformers in pakistan have a difficult battle ahead. advocating the most contentious issue around will do undue damage to the progressive agenda. gays should not have a problem because gop is not installing a camera in every bedroom. and they have more freedom in public anyway. when was the last time anyone saw a man and woman holding hands in public?

All I can say is I died laughing hearing some person - joined a monastery and applied for asylum (his is a persecuted lot back hjome) - when his visa ran out. Talk about hitting 2 birds with one stone. And why is everyone getting so anal on this board.

Alright people, line up along the sides, so we can see who`s where. And some of you may want to wander around, taking no sides at all.

Humans have many different (and sometimes even classified as weird) sexual preferences, why? People have fetishes, but comparing that to someone sexual orientation is not fair. Fetishes are about what turns a person `on` - regardless of their orientation. Some people have harmless fetishes and others may have harmful ones, but this still doesn`t mean that only `twisted` people have fetishes or that homosexuality is a fetish.

You cannot `confuse` someone about their orientation by giving them access to some information. Even if you did how long could it last? It would be more of a curiosity. Yes, believe it or not, people have curiosities, and they can be harmless. It`s not like a cold that you can transmit by being in the company of someone who has a cold. The only people who would `turn` into homosexuals would be the ones who had already experienced similar feelings and after receiving some kind of validation from others, decided to `come out` or express it more than before. And if we try and keep `these sort of people` away from the rest of the world, we`re only forcing those other people to live in the closets -- we`re still not `changing` their sexual orientation. We`re contributing to their unhappiness.

Sexual orientation is about whether a person is attracted to a person of their own sex or the opposite sex. There has been some research that suggests that there isn`t fixed categories for sexual orientation.

-------http://www.sbu.ac.uk/stafflag/kinseyscale.html ---
When Alfred Kinsey began his research into male sexuality he assessed the degree of homosexuality according to a seven-point scale. (Kinsey, Pomeroy, and Martin, (1948)). Individuals are rated as follows.
0 Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual experience
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidently homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, but incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual, with no heterosexual experience
The implication of the scale is that the question is not necessarily whether someone is homosexual or not. Rather that there is a continuum of homosexuality.

The scale can apply to either behaviour or sexual feeling.

Homosexuality can refer to inclination, activity, status, role, or self-concept. People may not be ``homosexual`` to the same extent for all dimensions. For example. a hustler may engage in homosexual activity while denying the self-concept. A married man may have the inclination but not act on it. The investigator must decide which dimension is of interest.
----

There are other research sources that could be cited that claim that humans are essentially bisexual. Of course, research doesn`t mean solid proof, but I think research implies that the possibilities do exist.

Yes genetically humans are programmed to reproduce, and even lgbt (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered) people want to have children and have families etc. If we don`t know enough, we cannot simply assume that we do, and assume that anything that we don`t know firsthand is wrong, or weird or a `sin` or not a big enough problem.

Each one of us knows a different set of issues that are hard to face, what`s that saying...you have to walk a mile in someone`s shoes before you truly get to know them?

I would say that no matter what the issue (racism, homophobia) - as long it`s not causing someone harm (pedophiles, serial killers) - we need to have an open mind and heart.

SaraJ: amaazing amazing amaaazing pictures....u guys looked so hot mashallah say :)...

sac: `pardon my ignorance` is the operative phrase....it was a simple enough question especially coming from someone who`s never been abroad and who`s lived in a country where the word `sex` is a taboo in itself let alone homosexuality!

Q: What`s the difference between a hobo and a homo?
A: A hobo has no friends at all, whereas a homo has friends up his ass.

Maybe articles like these don`t have to be literary masterpieces. The author is trying to discuss something that is somewhat taboo in Pakistani society, so lets concentrate on the message rather than in what terms it has been couched in. Politically correct meter-maids are more than welcome to debate whether `homo` is acceptable to the gay and lesbian community or not. It would be nice if some actual `homos` came out and described their `feelings` on the subject.

All power to the homos. My only beef with them is the same one I have with the mullahs. Ok you folks are awesome, your understanding of religion far exceeds mine BUT for Christ`s sake keep than feather tipped fedora out of my nose. I don`t know why Jimmy is shacking up with Andy and not you. Maybe you have bad breath. I am all for your right to marry Ali in the local masjid or Synagouge and wait 3 hours to see the HMO drone-terribly accented Raju Patel MD for allergies caused by spermicide that you told Dick NOT to use after he had nine Tequilla shots(and you had ten but whose counting). You are my friend. I know we prefer different openings. Lets leave it at that. I wasn`t there when God put a different carburretor into your system and I sure can`t do anything about it.

re Tidbit #23:

How about replacing same-sex with opposite-sex relationships in your question(pardon my ignorance)?

later
-sac

I am all for the equal rights of anally challenged people. There should not be any prejudice towards one`s sexual orientation either. Thus they deserve equal rights of a fair trial where judge and jury must decide their fate, without prejudice, leading them to their execution or flogging in a public place; oh.....and may be an acquittal.

Tidbit-
Having had 12 gay co-workers at one point, and countless gay friends, i can reassure you that sex is just as important to them as heterosexual couples...if not more so. :) And plenty of it is mindless. ;) Hey! Did you get the engagement pictures?? What`d you think?

sara

Re: Ras and Ashok

You guys are basically saying that the problems a gay person faces are negligible compared to other issues so we shouldn’t waste our time with this. Well, tell that to a gay person!
What a disingenuous argument to make!
By that token nothing can ever be written about any societal ill because someone will always point out another ill that they perceive to be a greater one!

Re: Moulanabux

The FBI reports that last year in the United States alone there were 90,000 incidents of heterosexual rape.

In a majority of