Closet

There is no site at
www.humjinsparast.com

r u sure? or my firewall is causing problem. However i could find

http://www.geocities.com/humjinsparast/home.html

Khurram`s article is at:
http://www.geocities.com/humjinsparast/archive/twistingsociety.html

Other sites are:

http://www.geocities.com/gaypakistanicommunity/

http://www.geocities.com/danial96/

oh maaan..frere hall is a gay meeting point?! i go there every sunday, how come i don know???

I agree with most of what Khurram said... except for the getting married part. Why would he want to marry a girl, if he`s so sure of his gaiety. I know quite a few American gays and one Pakistani gay friend who choose to go single their lives albeit with gay partners. Why make a mess of things and get married to a girl when its not the thing for you and you know it ?

was this article edited at ALL, before Chowk agreed to post it?

N J: You`ve brought a lot of tough issues to focus with this interview.
In many cases it seems that Khurram has an open viewpoint about which kind of society he lives in and how he has to continue to live and function within it.
It was a unique viewpoint, whereas in the west there are campaigns and pride days, in the east (Khurram claims - and rightly so), there`s nothing to be proud about - yet.
In a society, where even movies get banned and producers/directors get harrassed for tackling tough social issues (Deepa Mehta for Fire, and then Water - which was not about homosexuals but another social issue - which never could be completed), it does seem a bit silly to assume that people in the eastern social environment can do what people living in western environment do.

cheesoo you go there for the book fair!...

and

what do you think the hordes of maalishyaas that emerge in the evening at busy intersections and around the ghazi mazar do?...hint?...they do far more than johnny walker did in that old classic a la `sar jo mera chakrayay...``

agree with snow...if he had to marry he should marry a lesbian...keep it all in the family...

(sorry this is a serious issue: i don`t feel like being serious today)

Dear NJ,

Your `piece` also raises some questions about your writing skills.

And quit employing the derogatory term `homo` please!!

And finally your piece de resistance:
``After exchanging couple of mails and stating my purpose of this dialogue he agreed to make out with me. ``

Do you even know what this means?? lol

the_happy_one:

welcome back...

...wherever you have been happy you have not been here, happy...and that absence caused unhappiness...such is the card fate dealt...good humour and happiness...or `sense` thereof amidst the desis was carted off across oceans...not divvied up...hence happiness aat seeing happy here...

...first ana, now you...so enlighten the writers about propriety in usage...i go off riding in sunset...happily, might i add

...t


...t

South Asian people outside of South Asia, have a hard time coming to terms with a gay child, within South Asia, especially Pakistan gay people are putting their lives at risk, and the family... well it depends on the kind of family you have.

We live in the UK and my brother came out many years ago, it turned our family upside down. But what was surprising was the support my parents got from their circle of friends, constantly reminded that it wasn`t their fault. Its between the gay person and God. The family can only do so much, though the social stigma the family especially the parents feel, is overwhelming.

the_happy_one #7

it is quite pecular of South Asian ppl to mock the angrezi of other brown ppl. That is one big reason why the overall intellectual level is so low.

``I am not a homosexual and never met any homo. ``

?? Why take the trouble of writing this article then?? How does this matter concern you??

10 by freesoul:

{...it is quite pecular of South Asian ppl to mock the angrezi of other brown ppl. That is one big reason why the overall intellectual level is so low...}

this is very insgihtful...care to elaborate?

...do you think if desis do not indulge in this practice their intellectual level would soar?

...also what theories would you have about the intellectual level of millions of desis who do not comminicate in english?

rgds,

...t

stuka #12

:) good point.

I think he wants to clarify that he has no bias in favor of gays, based on his sexual orientation.

And when he says he never met any homo, it means he is coming with a `clean sheet`.

temporal #11

>>...do you think if desis do not indulge in this practice their intellectual level would soar? <<

atleast ppl will concerntrate on rational arguments to the point. There is some chance there, dont u think?

>>...also what theories would you have about the intellectual level of millions of desis who do not comminicate in english?<<

There is nothing wrong with ppl speaking desi languages.

Throritically, intellectual level or analytical skills of any person has nothing to do with the languages he speaks. However, incidently, being educated in pakistan/india means some sort of english communication skills. So yes, English becomes a criterion of one`s education and hence analytical power. I have no bias against that. But pointing out grammatical mistakes and other minor stuff (when u exactly know what the author wants to say) is low.

freesoul...
speaking as one who made the point about editing...i would not say that it is low. But first of all...the word homo has been used by those who do not care for gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transsexuals in a derisive manner, and so like the happy one..I would object to the use of that term.

Secondly, it is definitely NOT low, to suggest that one check what he/she has written for mistakes, even those of us who write well such as temporal (who i hope will forgive me for using him as an example) has been known to have posts here with errors. The point is not to bring a person down, but merely to suggest (on my part at least) that if one cares so much about getting a point across, then one should also care just as much about how the person gets the point across, regardless of how little or well versed one is in angrezi. And if you still think that is low, to each his or her own.

All this hoopla about ``Khush`` people.

Homosexuality is the least of our current world concerns.

Don`t ask. Don`t tell.

Aur bhi hain gham zamanay mein ``Khushi`` kay siwa.

This unnatural segregation of the sexes in Pakistan and other Muslim

societies is bound to create an environment for this kind of alternate

behaviour.

But then again, all these Khush people in San Francisco?

And we joke about the Frontier?

Ras

NJ,

Welcome to Chowk!

Thanks for the article; its nice to see people wrangle with these issues-kind of help us live in the real world, na?

Have to agree with Noor; homo is not acceptable to the gay, lesbian, and transgender community; I believe queer and gay are....

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nooralain (15)

The author has not used any derogatory tone for gays. He perhaps does not know that homo is derogatory term. His tone is sympathetic and his writing is quite inquisitive. I am not sure how that `happy one` reached this conclusion about the `derogatory` intent of the author. Any term (including nigger) without proper context does not automatically become derogatory.

I have nothing against the good communication and composition skills. And I do share everyone`s concern at the editorial quality of chowk. But if upgrading the editorial quality means that these sort of artciles r not published and this author type weak `angrezdan` do not write, then I am willing to sacrifice english composition quality at chowk in favor of new things to read.

What is the last time that i and u read anything about gays in pakistan? I am happy that i read something, irrespective of bad quality of article, anonymous sources used, and no scientific reasearch (the last 2 reasons r more severe in my opinion than the first one).

Re: temporal (8)

Glad that my presence brings you joy. In return I can only provide wryness. The warts on the face of Chowk that drove me away remain firmly planted. Now when I look into Chowk’s face I do so infrequently, reluctantly and with a shuddering wince.

Re: freesoul (10)

You are right. It is very much a ‘brown sahib’ tendency to mock other people’s English. You will find however that almost without exception those who partake in this nonsense could do well to use an English 101 at their friendly neighborhood community college. You know… people in glass houses and all that…

Re: All

To me the whole debate about same sex relations basically boils down to a very simple question.
Is homosexual behavior a matter of choice?

If homosexuality is a ‘life style choice’ as the right fringe would have you believe then the whole question of tolerance or compassion does come into play. Once having decided that somebody ‘slipped up’ or ‘made a bad choice’ in being gay, one can then consider whether such a person deserves any compassion or tolerance. We can endlessly debate back and forth about how much compassion or tolerance to accord a person afflicted with such fallibility. Platitudes regarding ‘god’s’ kindness towards ‘sinners’ can also be doled out with a semblance of validity.

But what if the answer to this question were in the negative? What if people were built to be gay? What if it was a genetic and physiological condition? Like being colored, or fat, or curly haired! The whole debate about compassion and tolerance goes out the window then doesn’t it?
Imagine how repulsed a black person would be if a couple of white guys (however well-meaning) sat and talked to each other about how tolerant and compassionate they were of black people and how the balcks needed to be gently guided to whiteness instead of being bashed upside of their heads. Black people don’t need the white people’s permission, tolerance or compassion to be black. They are black. The very same applies to gay people.

Ask someone who’s gay whether this was a ‘choice’ they made and 10 times out of 10 they will tell you that they can remember being gay from the first day of puberty. This means that gays are ‘created’ gay. Unless of course you think the entire gay community is flat lying!

Gay people don’t want special rights, they just want all the rights that straight people have. The rights to marry, adopt, show affection in public, eat burgers, fart, take roller coaster rides, fight in the military, go bungee jumping, dance, pray, joke and play cricket. They are not looking for a positive reaction from you, they are hoping for no reaction at all.


And one more time:
Could people please not use the term ‘homo’? It’s like using the word ‘nigger’ in a serious debate about race relations. Come on!

for those of you who missed 12-head...lijiye...woh laut aaya.
Freesoul..
unfortunately i cannot agree with you on everything that you have said. Your explanation or interpretation as to what the intent of the writer is, is just that your interpretation...it is not the interpretation. And I don`t believe that the happy one is saying the piece is derogatory, or unsympathetic (or are you, o happy one?)...merely that the word homo is, and should not have been used. Perhaps the writer will be more aware the next time he should write or talk about gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transgendered folk. Your reference to context here is interesting, given that we are discussing the struggles of a gay man in a restrictive environment...the intent may be sympathetic, but that word is not. I don`t think I need to focus on this anymore...I just hope the writer will bear this criticism as open-mindedly as he has been here.

I am extremely shocked that...there would be this many gay people in Pakistan, i can unsderstand india, but pakistan...anyhow thats not exactly a bad thing....equality is the most important thing a state strives to achieve....and in order to do that the society needs to accept these people as there is nothing wrong with them, as Mr. Khurram so rightly states...we all commit sins...and most of them are considered `ok` by the society then why not homosexuality...not that its a sin, but why discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation...
I havent been to Pakistan for the longest time...but i have been told that the society is much more open...i hope there is hope for the helpless gay community of Pakistan.

somone once told me that there`s actual love involved in same-sex relationships instead of mindless sex....is that true? (pardon my ignorance)

Let me be the devil`s advocate (in other words, speak my mind): I reject the presumption that gays are born, not made. The reason is simple: genes promoting behavior that prevents propogation of the species would not have any descendants to whom they are passed.
In other words, these would be ``dead-end`` genes that would have been the first ones to be eliminated (if they ever entered the human genome to begin with that is) millions of years ago.
This logic is also apparent in everyday life: from all indications, for example, the human body is built with one major goal in mind - the propogation of the species. Many diseases (cardiovascular, cancers, to name the most common) do not kick in until an individual is beyond child-bearing age.
I have never heard this rather obvious argument presented in the west or anywhere else. I think the reason is with the negative connotations most people have with being ``anti-gay``.
As far as I am concerned, if two grown men fancy each other`s hairy legs and smelly armpits, that is their business. AS LONG as they keep this enjoyment private, and dont parade it around like a badge of progressiveness. I dont even care if they give gay couples the same civil and property rights as unmarried heterosexual couples. But, by making a virtue out of their fetish, gays merely confuse younger people with unfounded ideas that some people have ``gay`` genes in them. They might as well tell them that some people have ``foot fetish`` genes in them, while others have ``masochist`` genes in them. All logic tells us otherwise. This may offend some politically correct people, but this is chowk and ah sez what ah seez.

``......has involved in many sexual encounters, which include, assault, harassment and pleasure. ``

Wasn`t there an article on chowk recentlly about how our womenfolk are harassed by sexually depraved males, on the road, in the markets, on the buses and so forth. What about the harassment young men have to face at the hands of other?

There was one who used to visit our school too, and have quite a good time, until the administration got whiff of his activities. He used to harass schoolboys. And when I was in grade 7th, he was caught, and brutally beaten, before being handed over to the authorities. I pitied him then. His father being a someone [in karachi, everyone is a someone] got him out. Then, when I was in grade 10, he started frequenting school again. And the prefects had to stay back. It was scary. I was the one who caught him. Had it not been for the intervention of the schools principal, the pedophile`s parents would have got him out again....as he was someone big in the Electronic Market situated opposite to our school.

I`m sure that young man is out in the open again..

Such incidents are not easily to overlook, and they leave a distinct scar on the minds of those who have to go through all this.

Mr. NJ, do me a favour and tell Mr.Khurram to write in his ezine about certain rules homosexuals should put forth. To not indulge in such activities with people against their wishes, and to not victimize school going children.

And I`ve nothing against homosexuals, as long as they confine their activities to those who consent to it. Be happy in your own little world.

H.

Re: Ras and Ashok

You guys are basically saying that the problems a gay person faces are negligible compared to other issues so we shouldn’t waste our time with this. Well, tell that to a gay person!
What a disingenuous argument to make!
By that token nothing can ever be written about any societal ill because someone will always point out another ill that they perceive to be a greater one!

Re: Moulanabux

The FBI reports that last year in the United States alone there were 90,000 incidents of heterosexual rape.

In a majority of the cases the culprit is out in the open again..

Such incidents are not easily to overlook, and they leave a distinct scar on the minds of those who have to go through all this.

Mr. Moulanabux, do me a favor and write your Chowk posts about certain rules heterosexuals should put forth. To not indulge in such activities with people against their wishes, and to not victimize women.

And I`ve nothing against heterosexuals, as long as they confine their activities to those who consent to it. Be happy in your own little world.

Tidbit-
Having had 12 gay co-workers at one point, and countless gay friends, i can reassure you that sex is just as important to them as heterosexual couples...if not more so. :) And plenty of it is mindless. ;) Hey! Did you get the engagement pictures?? What`d you think?

sara

I am all for the equal rights of anally challenged people. There should not be any prejudice towards one`s sexual orientation either. Thus they deserve equal rights of a fair trial where judge and jury must decide their fate, without prejudice, leading them to their execution or flogging in a public place; oh.....and may be an acquittal.

Maybe articles like these don`t have to be literary masterpieces. The author is trying to discuss something that is somewhat taboo in Pakistani society, so lets concentrate on the message rather than in what terms it has been couched in. Politically correct meter-maids are more than welcome to debate whether `homo` is acceptable to the gay and lesbian community or not. It would be nice if some actual `homos` came out and described their `feelings` on the subject.

All power to the homos. My only beef with them is the same one I have with the mullahs. Ok you folks are awesome, your understanding of religion far exceeds mine BUT for Christ`s sake keep than feather tipped fedora out of my nose. I don`t know why Jimmy is shacking up with Andy and not you. Maybe you have bad breath. I am all for your right to marry Ali in the local masjid or Synagouge and wait 3 hours to see the HMO drone-terribly accented Raju Patel MD for allergies caused by spermicide that you told Dick NOT to use after he had nine Tequilla shots(and you had ten but whose counting). You are my friend. I know we prefer different openings. Lets leave it at that. I wasn`t there when God put a different carburretor into your system and I sure can`t do anything about it.

re Tidbit #23:

How about replacing same-sex with opposite-sex relationships in your question(pardon my ignorance)?

later
-sac

Q: What`s the difference between a hobo and a homo?
A: A hobo has no friends at all, whereas a homo has friends up his ass.

SaraJ: amaazing amazing amaaazing pictures....u guys looked so hot mashallah say :)...

sac: `pardon my ignorance` is the operative phrase....it was a simple enough question especially coming from someone who`s never been abroad and who`s lived in a country where the word `sex` is a taboo in itself let alone homosexuality!

Alright people, line up along the sides, so we can see who`s where. And some of you may want to wander around, taking no sides at all.

Humans have many different (and sometimes even classified as weird) sexual preferences, why? People have fetishes, but comparing that to someone sexual orientation is not fair. Fetishes are about what turns a person `on` - regardless of their orientation. Some people have harmless fetishes and others may have harmful ones, but this still doesn`t mean that only `twisted` people have fetishes or that homosexuality is a fetish.

You cannot `confuse` someone about their orientation by giving them access to some information. Even if you did how long could it last? It would be more of a curiosity. Yes, believe it or not, people have curiosities, and they can be harmless. It`s not like a cold that you can transmit by being in the company of someone who has a cold. The only people who would `turn` into homosexuals would be the ones who had already experienced similar feelings and after receiving some kind of validation from others, decided to `come out` or express it more than before. And if we try and keep `these sort of people` away from the rest of the world, we`re only forcing those other people to live in the closets -- we`re still not `changing` their sexual orientation. We`re contributing to their unhappiness.

Sexual orientation is about whether a person is attracted to a person of their own sex or the opposite sex. There has been some research that suggests that there isn`t fixed categories for sexual orientation.

-------http://www.sbu.ac.uk/stafflag/kinseyscale.html ---
When Alfred Kinsey began his research into male sexuality he assessed the degree of homosexuality according to a seven-point scale. (Kinsey, Pomeroy, and Martin, (1948)). Individuals are rated as follows.
0 Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual experience
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidently homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, but incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual, with no heterosexual experience
The implication of the scale is that the question is not necessarily whether someone is homosexual or not. Rather that there is a continuum of homosexuality.

The scale can apply to either behaviour or sexual feeling.

Homosexuality can refer to inclination, activity, status, role, or self-concept. People may not be ``homosexual`` to the same extent for all dimensions. For example. a hustler may engage in homosexual activity while denying the self-concept. A married man may have the inclination but not act on it. The investigator must decide which dimension is of interest.
----

There are other research sources that could be cited that claim that humans are essentially bisexual. Of course, research doesn`t mean solid proof, but I think research implies that the possibilities do exist.

Yes genetically humans are programmed to reproduce, and even lgbt (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered) people want to have children and have families etc. If we don`t know enough, we cannot simply assume that we do, and assume that anything that we don`t know firsthand is wrong, or weird or a `sin` or not a big enough problem.

Each one of us knows a different set of issues that are hard to face, what`s that saying...you have to walk a mile in someone`s shoes before you truly get to know them?

I would say that no matter what the issue (racism, homophobia) - as long it`s not causing someone harm (pedophiles, serial killers) - we need to have an open mind and heart.

All I can say is I died laughing hearing some person - joined a monastery and applied for asylum (his is a persecuted lot back hjome) - when his visa ran out. Talk about hitting 2 birds with one stone. And why is everyone getting so anal on this board.

we have people on these pages who advocate teaching ahemdis a lesson. pretty soon, nwfp will have a govt that believes that a woman`s hair is something evil. reformers in pakistan have a difficult battle ahead. advocating the most contentious issue around will do undue damage to the progressive agenda. gays should not have a problem because gop is not installing a camera in every bedroom. and they have more freedom in public anyway. when was the last time anyone saw a man and woman holding hands in public?

#27 by moulabux

>>There was one who used to visit our school too, and have quite a good time, until the administration got whiff of his activities. He used to harass schoolboys<<<

and u boys wanted free candies, huh?

;)

#31 by Urstruly

>>I am all for the equal rights of anally challenged people.<<

Funny that gays would think of u as `anally challenged `, as u do not use the rear hole to its fullest capabilities as much as they do :)

Sal

``I am extremely shocked that...there would be this many gay people in Pakistan, i can unsderstand india, but pakistan...``

Dude, what the hell are you implying?? Why is it understandable for India to have more gays than Pakistan? Hain? You think we are a nation of gay people?

We have larger population than you. Obviously, our people have way more straight sex than your people. Besides, everyone knows that Pathans are rearenders in a sensual sense. That means proportion of gays in Pakistan is way more than in India.

the_happy_one,

What a disingenius arguement to make.
By that token, nothing can ever be written about any homosexual ills because someone will always point certain heterosexual ills that they perceive to be a greater one.

reading some of the comments here, i feel like giving up on this Chowk qaum altogether...but then i realize just how much this place is in need of broader minded people, and that most if not all of you should not be taken seriously.
khudahafiz!

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#23 by Tidbit on November 19, 2002 0:15am PT

somone once told me that there`s actual love involved in same-sex relationships instead of mindless sex....is that true? (pardon my ignorance)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tidbit,

Yes that is true, my brother had a boyfriend for many years, they were very emotionally involved with each other. When they broke up, they went through the same pain and agony that every normal couple goes through. Many gay people are looking for a monogomous relationship, and some are not, just like straight people.

Re: moulabux

Firstly: What is `disingenius`?

Secondly: So you agree that homosexual are as guilty or innocent of rape as are heterosexuals? You make my point for me! You were the one implying that somehow homosexuals are more prone to rape than heterosexuals. Any and every statistic will prove your point duly laughable.

I suggest you first grow an IQ before spouting off since until the time that you cultivate some basic cognitive abilities all that will drool from you will be asinine drivel.

warm regards.

the author is naive to writing and the usage of politically correct terminology......we shouldn`t make fun of his naivete or criticize him so harshly. not all of us grew up in a Western `politically correct` society.
not all of us learned to speak and write English perfectly in school.

what is good is that this author is expanding his knowledge and understanding about this controversial subject....and allowing others the chance to express their opinions about it.

i havent see any remarks from any homosexuals here, chowk`s readership dont have any queer ?
and most suprisingly not many Indian bursting to show they have doing better from Paksitan. SWEET DREAMS

39# by nooralain [but then i realize just how much this place is in need of broader minded people} LOOK WHO IS TALKING!

I am surprise that people are more interested in communication skills rather then issue, which part of the article you didn’t get? If you got all then what’s wrong with the communication? Why is important to set high standards of English. Is it necessary to have only those articles on Chowk where most of the readers have to look into dictionary? After a long time I read something different on Chowk, which is not repeating same, politics, India & Pakistan, Jihad, USA, Women issues etc.

What’s wrong with the word homo?

Happy_a_day and Nooralain…. its seem you people never been to Pakistan or atleast not in recent years. Homo is the term, which is most commonly, used to identify homosexuals in Pakistani society; may be in the places where you live it kind of insulting but in paki land its normal,I am,being a paksitani living in karachi cant see any bias or insult in it. Remember, the writer is the one who is bringing this issue, why you thought he want to insult the community? You don’t have to see everything in your society’s prospective.

``Making out``, again Happy_A_DAY, its not writer’s fault if you are not aware of use of this terms in Pakistan especially big cities like Khi. It’s clear that writer is referring to Khurram’s agreement to open his thoughts and I have seen many people in Khi use this term in similar meanings quite often, irrespective of its actual meaning.. how many meanings the word fu*k has , NOT EVEN AN ACTUAL WORD?

Freesoul is right, intellectual level of brown skin is very low, how can those people comment on sexual discrimination, who themselves involve in discrimination based on standards of English.

Links pasted in #1 by Freesoul give very good info to understand homosexual life in Pakistan.

ramiskhan...
first of all...you have no idea what i was referring to when I made that statement. I have no quarrel with what the writer has said...nor do I see this completely from my society`s perspective (which culture and society I belong to is and always has been questionable anyway)...I have not been away from Pakistan long enough to know that even the word `nigger` is what you would call a normal term in Pakistan. Yes, we Pakistanis shorten words, and use terms we read in books thinking that it is normal, because the social significance/context/whatever of these terms are not explained to us. We can call ourselves Pakis, but heaven forbid a white Britisher should say that to us. Or is that now normal as well? And while we`re talking about normal terms...is it still normal to call a Christian like me a `choora` in Pakistan?
I think this is a good article...but I will say as I have before...doublecheck, read and reread before you submit something...this applies to all of us. I don`t have a problem with the writer`s english. I`m glad ramiskhan sahib, that you don`t have a problem with the word homo in Karachi...just be aware that the shortened version of homosexual has been used in beatings of gays here, as a serious insult, not just kind of an insult. I love my `khush` friends dearly and am always startled when I see words such as `homo`. It was not my intention to make a big deal, or see this from just one perspective.
and I will not be returning to this board...so please don`t even bother replying to me at least..because i will not be reading it.
thanks for your time, and peace!

I am beginning to suspect that heterosexuals are a low IQ cult....or perhaps part of one massive alien conspiracy to take life as we know it to the verge of extinction....I mean, all this breeding cant really be good .... can it ?

Btw...someone mentioned the Kinsey report.... its a funny little report. Says many many heterosexuals---oh well, I mean people with more than incidental or exclusively heterosexual experience--- like their rear end being poked while having a heterosexual go at the opposite sex. Something is rotten in Denmark...dont you think ? Perhaps Kinsey is a member of the counter hetero cult. Less low IQ, but low still. Perhaps he just made it up to support his spectrum of sexuality/continuum of sexuality theory.

I dont understand whats so wonderful about this allegedly predominantly hetereosexual world which homosexuality will destroy ? And I cant also think of much that would be wonderful in an equally homosexual world. Well, except that there might be fewer people.

I notice that most things have opposittes. Dark-Light, Black-White...its a kind of natural thing, isnt it ? Wouldnt it be a bit unnatural if heterosexuality didnt have its oppositte i.e Homosexuality !

Are only homosexual humans bad ? Or homosexual dolphins too ? Or homosexual Iguanas ? Or bisexual cats ? Personally, I am scared to death of heterosexual snakes.

Oh i really dont know. But variety is quite wonderful. Dont you think ?

The amount of trouble that I went through to create a new e-mail address to be able to register at this web site and pen down my two cents’ worth should speak for itself when it comes to a desi queer’s self-consciousness at putting forth something as simple as ‘his point of view’ on the subject. But first things first:

I wonder what locale of my dear country you are referring to ramiskhan when you say that ‘homo’ and ‘making out’ have the seemingly innocuous meanings that you put forth as the norm of everyday vernacular in ‘big cities like Karachi’. The author’s naivete aside, ‘homo’ is not the word of choice when one wants to refer to a fellow homo erectus who belongs to the happy clan. And may God have mercy on the poor beings that agree to ‘make out’ on important issues of geo-political and/or national security. And before temporal’s gut gives another heave, I think ‘intellect’ is favoured over ‘intellectual level’. Or shall I take my foot outta ma mouth?

Why does the notion of a serious relationship or more precisely the concept of a monogamous same-sex relationship seem so absurd? And the question, believe me, is addressed to people on both sides of the happy divide. My relative inexperience at interacting with fellow happy people limits me in pronouncing a judgement but I have yet to see the concept given any credence by both straight and gay people alike.

all those who question the relevance of the homosexuality issue: please read the_happy_one reply#16 – “Gay people don’t want special rights, they just want all the rights that straight people have. The rights to marry, adopt, show affection in public, eat burgers, fart, take roller coaster rides, fight in the military, go bungee jumping, dance, pray, joke and play cricket. They are not looking for a positive reaction from you, they are hoping for no reaction at all.” Thank you the_happy_one. I’d be honest with you, this particular piece was the reason why I even went to the trouble of ‘interacting’ on this board. But alas, I have yet to see a post that even vaguely begins to accept this prescription.

So my point of view? Let me just second what I’ve transcript-ed above and say kudos to the_happy_one. That and the fact that in another 15 minutes I need to have my butt in me boss’ room with a 5-pager report (in a VERY non anally challenged context ofcourse! She’s a she you see).

Deewar,
Breeders are an interesting lot, some of us more than others...start using that term for hets and see how quickly Sac and his lot start thinking about terminology...but of course, some of refuse to deal...we get off on our use of the word ``homo``-even though every culture and language has a term for being queer that was chosen by the queer community-so that not using the terms the khush community defines themselves with is a bit of a power play. Noor`s right; call a African American person a ``negro`` over here and see how much time people are going to waste in sympathy while you hide behind some of the excuses we`ve read on this board....and I dont mean the writer Sahib who I believe as Scout opined should be commended for opening up the discussion, but for the breeders who should know better....

the_happy_one,

leaving spelling errors and punctuation mistakes aside, you also make the point for me. You somehow perilously assumed that I implied homosexuals are more prone to rape than heterosuxuals. Your counter statements are self-defeating.

And about spouting off asinine drivel , speak for youeself. All you`ve done [so far ; and the future isn`t too bright either] is spew self contradictory balderdash. You`ve an IQ of a 4 year old. [and i`m sure he was glad to get rid of it.]

H.

the_happy_one,

leaving spelling errors and punctuation mistakes aside, you also make the point for me. You somehow perilously assumed that I implied homosexuals are more prone to rape than heterosuxuals. Your counter statements are self-defeating.

and I don`t itend to make this a personal battle ground. You tell me of growing an IQ, while all you do is spew self contradictory balderdash.
You`ve an IQ of a 4 year old. [and i`m sure he was glad to get rid of it.]

Seems like there are two controversial issues and one implicitly non-controversial issue on this board, as follows:
Controversial Issue 1: Are gays good or bad? And corollary: Are those who think gays are bad themselves bad. My conclusion: This is a meaningless issue, not worth wasting even ``chowk time`` on.
Controversial Issue 2: Is it OK to use deviate from the standard form of the english language? Thanks to poster ``happy one`` for raising this issue. My conclusion: Most of the time (at least using examples from this article and from various posts it is not OK). Reason: Most of the time (in case of the writer of this article, and in case of poster moulabux) he is clearly trying to use words and phrases that he either misspells (NOT mistypes, as moulabux claims, but simply cant spell - as in case of his use of the word ``disingenious`` as the happy one pointed out, causing moulabux to respond by posting insults to the happy one). OR, worse, whose meaning he does not understand. As in case of the writer of this article inviting gays to ``make out with him`` (clearly unaware of the meaning of this phrase, which is an invitation to come screw him). Happy One was correct in pointing this out. This of course is the common disease among many pakistani ``educated`` people: trying to impress people with the use of words they dont really understand, or snappy phrases, rather than trying to write thoughtfully and clearly. Ludos, I mean kudos :-) , to the happy one for making this an issue on a board where the main issue (as above) is a superficial one.
Noncontroversial Issue: This is where I pointed out that, there cant be any such thing as ``gay genes``, since by logic these would have been dead end genes that the ``gay couple`` would not have any descendants to pass on to. And as such, gays can stop acting as if they are represent anything more than (a) another form of kinky sex and/or (b) individuals having difficulty building relationships with people of the opposite sex. They cant claim they are built this way. I assume the silence means that all those politically correct people on this board agree on this point.

re Tidbit #30:

I thought you weren`t serious. I apologize.

Now taking your question in earnest, according to a widely quoted study the average gay person(whatever that means) in America has more than 70 sexual partners in their lifetime. The number for a white guy is between 10 and 15. For white women its 4-10. Draw your own inferences.

re saminashah #48:

For once surprise me.........be original. You`ve got nothing to lose but your hangups.

later
-sac(hopefully a breeder)

re tahmed32:

Your gay gene theory doesn`t fly. Firstly because it may not be genetic but hormonal. The latest research is that gays have an excess hormone in the lower parts of their brains compared to `normal` men. Secondly if it indeed is genetic, who says gays don`t enter heterosexual marriages. I know quite a few.

later
-sac

sac # 51: tis ok :)....dont mean to presumptuous but figures show tht gays are more promiscuous?? wonder why?? could it be that they`re condemned by society so they try to live up to that??

re tahmed32 sahab

The gene that shows high positive correlation with homosexuality in men is Xq28 and is present on (as the name suggests) the X chromosome of the 23rd pair. Whether it is a biological determinant of homosexuality in men is ofcourse not known. Since it`s on X chromosome in men, it is inherited from the mother and as such does not mean that it would select itself out of the gene pool in one generation.
Your other suggestion that gay people are individuals having difficulty building relationships with people of the opposite sex is laughable. How many gay men do you know in US? If popular culture and some people I know are to be believed, gay men form very close friendships with women.

re tidbit #53
If evolutionary psychology is to be believed, men are naturally inclined to be more promiscous than women because men have billions of small gametes and women have one large gamete per month. Since women are more selective, heterosexual men are forced to be less promiscous than they would like to be. However, no such constraint exists for homosexual men and they are more promiscous. I do not know if lesbian women on average have more partners than heterosexual women. Evolutionary theories would suggest that they will not and ``condemned by society`` theory suggests that they will.

Hehe

``disingenious`` indeed, tahmed32.

and about insults and verbosity, you should go through mr. the_happy_ones post too.

toodles,
H.

sac #54 In my response to your post #54 I forgot a ``not``. The sentence ``I think you will agree that genes are the sole determinant...`` should read ``I think you will agree that genes are NOT the sole determinant....``.

sac #54 The underlying point you make - namely, that genes alone do not determine behavior - is of course correct. However, I think you will agree that genes are the sole determinant of the hormonal mix in an individual. Nor is the hormonal mix the sole determinant of human behavior. External influences play a significant role in many different ways. For example, get invited to her apartment by an attractive co-worker, and your sex hormones will increase regardless of what the genes have to say about it. Similarly, get chased by a lion and a different set of hormones start pumping.
Thus, while gays make a big deal about the ``sex gene`` (I discuss that separately in my response to mastram2), I think they are kidding themselves.

mastram2 #56 I think my response to sac below also applies to the point you make about gene Xq28 (actually, it is a region containing genes in the x chromosome). I see from google that there are gay websites on it (my first search brought out a Thai gay web site!!), but clearly the conclusion they draw is not supported by science. That is, with the decoding of the human genome we are still far from understanding how human behavior is determined. But it is quite clear even at this stage that genes alone do not determine it.
Thus, my original conclusion on this point - namely that a person is not pre-determined to be gay at time of birth, and that external influences play a significant role.
Having said all this, I agree of course that if two men wish to enjoy each others smelly bodies in private, I have no problem with that. They just need to stop making a virtue out of it and claiming that this is the natural order of things when all evidence and logic points the other way.

maulabux #55 I am glad you feel the need to excuse your insults towards the happy one since this means maybe we will get more mature posts from you in future on chowk.
And indeed I am flattered that you should present these excuses to me as a schoolchild does to the schoolmaster. As your schoolmaster, therefore, let me respond by asking you not to hide behind excuses, not to point fingers at others, and try not to repeat this mistake again.
Now do 50 pushups to remind you not to repeat this mistake again. Class dismissed!! :-)

Mr Stuka, please email me on zafreallyzaf@yahoo.com regarding a COMPLETELY unrelated matter - ie lassi at bengali market.

Reply sac #51

``Now taking your question in earnest, according to a widely quoted study the average gay person(whatever that means) in America has more than 70 sexual partners in their lifetime. The number for a white guy is between 10 and 15. For white women its 4-10. Draw your own inferences.``

Bugger (!) the inferences, I want to know the stats for desis...

(Also, this white guy/woman are straight? Or is this the average?)

tahmed#60
[not to point fingers at others]

tahmed#59
[if two men wish to enjoy each others smelly bodies in private]

Do you see the hypocricy?

re tahmed32 #59:

``Thus, my original conclusion on this point...``

er....is completely bogus. How many bald casanovas do you know?

re ZafarA #61:

``Bugger (!) the inferences, I want to know the stats for desis...``

This field requires your eminence to shed some light. I`ve been told that desis don`t do it...............................

later
-sac

I don`t know too much about this sex gene theory, but I do know that homosexuals like the rest of the society have the right to be who they are, and they shouldn`t have to hide or `do things in private`. In south-asian culture, and in some places a woman and a man still cannot hold hands, let alone kiss in public etc. It`s a different culture. But in `western` culture people do - so people of any sexual orientation should be able to express their affections without being harrassed about it.

I also want to explore this feeling of `disgust` towards the sexual practices among people of different sexual orientation. Why is that many people find this disgusting? Because it`s not natural? Nature itself, I believe, does not promote `conformity` but rather `growth` or `change`.
Of course not many people would confess to these feelings, simply because it`s not politically correct to do so, so it`s better to be quiet than to say what they feel. Obviously if you don`t identify as a homosexual, you will find that the expressions between two people of your own sex are not attractive to you, but I would imagine that it would bring a feeling of `neutrality`. It would not excite your imagination, but why would it disgust people?

khamkhwa #63 You ask ``Do you see the hypocricy? ``
No. Please enlighten.

sac #64 I thought women considered baldness to equal virility and so baldies had an edge over the rest of us. You seem to know better.
btw, I dont know how bald casanovas, or lack thereof, has anything to do with my conclusions.

tahmed#65

[each others smelly bodies]

Words of disdain ? Or do they really smell??

..oh my, lot of excited men on the gay board...have fun, people...adios...

Dear readers

I am sorry; I should have come earlier but due to other commitments (not the homo ones)…………. Ok I had no idea that word Homo would start that much debate here…………….i do know this word is kind of insulting but I never had any intention to do so, but as you people are suggesting, may be unintentionally I did insult homosexuals, may be because I am also a part of society and intentionally or unintentionally we don’t miss any chance to taunt on homosexuals, transsexuals etc. So I admit I am feeling guilty on my neck but I believe although I am guilty not responsible. I apologize, if any homosexual is reading, for using the word homo, I had no intention to insult u and If I wanted to insult I have better word in Urdu which you know what is it.

Some of the members remind me of my father who always remained concerned about my communication skills…all I can say” I try”. On use of the word “Making out”…neither I understand what’s the problem with it nor I care much. I am not sure most Chowk readers do have time to analyze what is politically correct or what is incorrect after all we are not Bill Maher , I owe a responsibility to Khurram and I thought putting his feelings on Chowk might help to highlight this issue, although Chowk don’t attract the masses addressed in the article. Those who think this issue is not important to discuss, if you visit Pakistani gay websites and their chatting channels, you will realize its not as least important as you guys are thinking.

Some of my friends raised questions which I can’t answer as how much I can try I can’t think with the mind of a homosexuals…if any one (which I am sure no one) interested to talk with Khurram you can reach him at boyjone_pk@yahoo.com.

Thanks again for all comments, see you people again with some other item.

Allah Hafiz

N.J

re tAhmed #67:

Dude, I like you so I`ll explain.

Unless your name is Vin Diesel or Barry Diller, the percentage of women that like bald men is the same that likes midgets. Hair treatment(Rogaine, Propeica, hair plugs etc.) is a $6 billion a year business for the same reason.

Baldness like color blindness is genetic. If your father and grandfather are bald, you have a 70% chance of being bald by the time you are 40. So if baldness is genetic and confers a sexual disadvantage, it would make sense that the number of bald people in general population would decline. Scientists have seen no such evidence. The percentage of bald people has remained pretty steady. Same thing with color blindness.

Its not easy to explain away the presence or disapperance of traits based on genetic theory alone. There are a lot of missing pieces to the puzzle. But the evidence so far is largely in favour of sexual orientation being determined at birth rather than after.

Now let me go play with the Field Marshal.

later
-sac

NJ #70 Your post is as nonsensical as your article. Forget gays or g----s (in utdu) or whatever. Take a communications class instead (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a jerk in real life, and simply come across as one when you write).

I feel this is a very relevant discussion for Pakistanis today. I know of many gay men who are married to decent Pakistani girls simply because of social reasons: to save their family name, to make their parents happy, etc etc. One girl I know has been married to a gay man for the past 6 years. Out of sheer frustration, this man started beating her.....this is on top of spending nights out of the house, being openly gay, bringing shame to HER family, making her act like his doll so he could play dress up with her, and other really weird things. Shouldn`t society realize the repercussions of making gay men marry? Why do poor girls have to pay for their husbands` problems and for our so-called society`s lack of effort to even understand what makes a man gay. On top of the many problems that Pakistani girls face every day of their lives, they now have to wonder whether or not their future spouse IS GAY. This is neither the man`s fault....or the girl`s fault. This is society`s fault. And I thank NJ for making ppl think about this......

Tidbit:

``dont mean to presumptuous but figures show tht gays are more promiscuous?? ``

ya, that`s coz gay sex involves two guys...and all guys are horndogs regardless if they are gay or straight...guys will f#ck anyone..women have hangups on ``being in love etc`` before having sex, so less sex :(

One great advantage that bald people have over `normal` people is that they are relatively more aerodynamic.

#73 by tahmed32

uor message prove you more jerk then NJ. How low one could be to comment someone`s comunication skills:)

and its not (utdu) , its Urdu .

stop jerking and get a life.

Urstruly,

Regarding your comment #75, that`s so right. I can do 100 meters in just over 12 seconds.

Tahmed,

The lions in Mozambique are very aggressive and eat humans for lunch. They also happen to be bald and tests on them show that they have very high levels of testosterone. sac is prolly just jealous `cos he`s got long hair growing out of his nostrils also :)

Umer M.

re: shanzeh1
[ ... This is neither the man`s fault....or the girl`s fault. This is society`s fault. ...]

And all this time I was under the impression that society consists of men and women. I`m sorry, but if someone`s gay, and he knowingly marries a girl then he should be the first one to blame. Unlike women in our culture, a man can refuse to get married and still lead an independent and financially secure life. And trust me, after a while, people will stop hounding him to tie the knot; a luxury very few women are afforded.

shanzeh1 #72 That argument (gays who are married in pakistan due to social pressures, and then proceed to take their frustrations out on their wives) is the second acceptable argument for accepting gays for what they are in soceity that I have heard.
Also, urstruly`s argument (bald guys are aerodynamic, with umarmurtaza performing a scientific experiment to prove the thesis) is the first acceptable argument for accepting bald guys for what they are in society that I have heard.
I am learning a lot today.

stuka #74 Your argument (guys dont need foreplay) is the first acceptable argument in favor of the gay school of thought (or the peshawar school of thought, as it is known in pakistan) that I have heard.

sac #71 I knew a paki midget (or close enough - he was 5 foot 1 inch) who got more dates than he could handle. He explained (to the rest of us who were then single and therefore could only watch enviously as he cleaned out the chicken coop) the reason in one word: kinky.
So dont underestimate the subconscious yearnings a shiny head brings out in some women.

tahmed#80
[I am learning a lot today.]

Good! how about replying to #63,#68 and #78.

khamkhwa #81 ``how about replying to #63,#68 and #78.``
On #78 from ramis: I accept charges that I spelled ``urdu`` as ``utdu``, and am ready to jump in a river to kill myself out of shame for this typo.
I also admit guilty to considering NJ to be a jerk, and to having also criticized his communication skills. Can I have a last cigarette before being executed?
On #68 and #78 from you: I must admit being too lazy to go back to read what you wrote. I know you write some one-liners (and commend you for that, which is better than what most of us including myself do), and I am sure you are right in whatever you wrote. Give yourself a pat in the back for being right and for being brief.

Reply sac #64

``This field requires your eminence to shed some light. I`ve been told that desis don`t do it............................... ``

What a relief! I thought it was just me...

#72 by shanzeh1

>>>Why do poor girls have to pay for their husbands` problems and for our so-called society`s lack of effort to even understand what makes a man gay. On top of the many problems that Pakistani girls face every day of their lives, they now have to wonder whether or not their future spouse IS GAY. This is neither the man`s fault....or the girl`s fault. This is society`s fault. <<<<


Actually, it is becoming fashionable to blame society, and start puffing cigs in unaffected manner.

This is as much girl`s fault as man`s fault. y should a girl be stupid enough to marry a man who is gay? And why should she suffer ater she knows he is gay? is she not educated?

And y should a gay man marry a girl? r gays not MEN enough to stand up to pressure?

It is time we start looking into mirror before blaming some vague culprit (society)

tahmed#83

In the immortal words of lajwantii...i am a fried don otan geryes?
The sooner you get off your high horse the better for all of us.As for
one liners...haven`t got enough ``wisdom`` to pontificate like most of the interactors ;)

#85 by freesoul

{This is as much girl`s fault as man`s fault. y should a girl be stupid enough to marry a man who is gay? And why should she suffer ater she knows he is gay? is she not educated? }

how can she know beofre marriage, if someone not going to tell her?

You are right for after marriage thing, but getting divorced....ummmm....., still scoiety not going to believe her if gay man denies it. and its not easy for a divorcee woman to get marry again.the second important thing is children, if they hav children then hav to sacrifice......
[And y should a gay man marry a girl? r gays not MEN enough to stand up to pressure}

I guess its only easy to say......not every one can take society`s pressure specially living in muslim society.

shanez1: you brought a good point to discussion. There is a very valid question that what happens when a gay man marries due to social pressure. (we can assume that without social pressure he`d not want to marry or if he does he`s at least bisexual or in denial)

I have also heard of the complications people get into when gay men (the topic being restricted to gay men), marry and have children for `society`s sake`. The guy is not happy, the girl is not who he wants to be with, both of them are eventually unhappy. Besides the married guy over time may have affairs with men - which only makes the situation worse for both and not better.

What you said shanzeh1 was sad, the guy resorted to beating, and other forms of abuse. Abuse is abuse, whether it comes from a gay guy or a straight guy. But because of this we can`t assume that the guy turned abusive because he was gay and married to this woman (maybe he would have been abusive if he`d lived with a guy too? maybe not). Nor can we assume that All gay men who marry women end up being abusive. And I think shanezh1 you agree on this. I`m just elaborating, because this seems to be one thing that bothers other people too.

adnan_rafiq: I know gay men who have been pressured to get married, and they have resisted. Believe me it`s not easy, it`s draining, parents and relatives use all the emotions they can find and it`s not easy for the guy to keep saying - i just dont` want to get married, because in our culture - people naturally assume that `something is wrong` when someone (man or woman) does not want to marry and has not had any obvious visible contact with a person of the opposite sex. No?
Also, as discussed in this article to some degree, coming out to friends and family is not easy either. Given so many misconceptions - gay men assume they are better off in the closet than outside, and some of the time rightly so.

tahmed32: I must say that I respect that you`re openly expressing your opinion - most people would not.

And I know that there are others on this board who find the idea of sex between two men not acceptable. I`ve met people too, who openly state that `look I don`t care for what they do, as long as I don`t know about it`. I am trying to figure out why is the preference of some other fellow human beings repulsive to some people. Why do people get so worked up about this?

The argument that `it`s not natural` is too easy. There are other things that are not `natural` that may not repulse us. We`re talking about (gay or straight) sex between two consenting adults. For example, personally bondage and all the other S&M stuff at the most scares me, and at the very least I`m neutral about and know for sure that I will never be a part of something like that - because it does not click for me (no funny comments from rsaxena, stuka or any other guy on this!).

mastram2: interesting point...though i still think `condemned by society` wala rule applies...

stuka:

Re: Brat (66)

Some people think that extreme homophobia exhibited by ostentatiously heterosexual men towards gay men is a violent manifestation of latent homosexuality within themselves. These are typically religious men who are over-ridden with guilt driven into them by their pastors who eloquently tee off on gays every Sunday. Remember the Mathew Shepard case in Laramie Wyoming?

But then there is ‘natural’ disgust too. I think this is quite forgivable considering all that is involved in an act of anal sex. The disgust is not simply due to the thought of two people of the same gender engaging in a sexual act, I don’t know any man who’s ‘disgusted’ with two lipstick lesbians going at each other. It’s the anal sex that is disgusting to some people.

Reminds me of a famous Norm McDonald quip from his days at the helm of weekend update and it went something like this:
“In a recent survey it was found that 85% of Americans have no objection to gay relationships. When reminded however that gay relationships often involve anal penetration, the number dropped sharply to 25%”.

the_happy_one #89
Your post explained some things I did not consider. The poll figure you quoted was interesting.

#86 by nawaid

I just want to say that `dont make society as a villian`. What society is? It is nothing but a general manifestation of all of us. if an educated girl is dumb enough to marry a starnger, then she is answerable to none but herself if her hubby turns out gay, impotent, abusive, or alcoholic. Some risks r always worth taking, but major issues on which the marriage stands, can not be just God to manipulate.

I am sick and tired of ppl projecting educated women as victims in all such cases. No one is victim. We all contribute to rigidity of society in one way or other. If we do not have the courage to challenge biases and traditions, we should all weep at the corner, and not some public form. This is unacceptable victim mentality.

#89 by the_happy_one

From a sex education book:

``Anal Stimulation and Intercourse: Because the anus has many nerve endings, it can produce intense erotic responses. Both homosexual and heterosexual couples use stimulation of the anus by fingers or mouth as a source of sexual arousal and engage in penile penetration of the anus...``

I think many ppl show their disgust to anal pleasures on moral (read religous) and traditional grounds. If ppl r open to new things and courageously challenge their biases, the poll result would be quite different.

khamkhwa #87 ``The sooner you get off your high horse the better for all of us.``
What exactly is it that I am writing that troubles you so much. Please cut and paste, and if possible explain how that puts me on a high horse. I will be much obliged.