Games Generals Play

re:#46 by harimau
What you say may still happen. US has shown the world it is not serios about proliferaton. This sends a wrong signal. India, as the largest democracy and a nation of 1 billion people, should have no compulsions in selling nuclear tech to any country that offers a good price. After all, what incentive India has for not selling.
One way to pay back Chinkoos in the same coin would be to transfer nuclear tech to Taiwan and put to rest any speculations of an invasion from the mainland ever happening in future. Also, India can seriously start discussions about co-operation in nuclear areas with Vietnam.
US does not care about India. I am surprised Indian politicians run to US everytime Pak does something, the way a kid in school runs to his schoolteacher, when he is taunted by his schoolmate. It is time India realised it is in this alone. Take the US factor out of your mind and do what you would if US were not there.
sridhar

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faisaluno #50
``shadowy bodies across America are helping to pay for mass murder in India, while the U.S. government turns a blind eye``

I am sorry that Muslims had to be brutally killed in India for Pakistanis like you to understand how Indians feel about organisations like JeM and LeT operating freely in Pakistan, collecting money to kill Indians and actually kill Indians for 5-7 years while the US government turns a blind eye( until the Indian Army threatened war last Dec).

Indians have to cope with both our own and your crap as well, no thanks to you.

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Lest the chowkies feel i am the only person ranting about hindus on chowk, rest assured, there is at least one more person who feels the way i do:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A4544-2002Aug27?language=printer

Excerpts from Rushdie`s column:

``Nor is Kashmir the only South Asian grievance. The massacres in the Indian state of Gujarat, mostly of Indian Muslims by fundamentalist Hindu mobs, have been shown to be the result of planned attacks led by Hindu political organizations. But in spite of testimony presented to a congressional commission, the U.S. administration has done nothing to investigate U.S.-based organizations that are funding these groups, such as the World Hindu Council. Just as American Irish fundraisers once bankrolled the terrorists of the Provisional IRA, so, now, shadowy bodies across America are helping to pay for mass murder in India, while the U.S. government turns a blind eye. Once again, the supposedly high-principled rhetoric of the ``war against terror`` is being made to look like a smoke screen for a highly selective pursuit of American vendettas``.

Ref rsridhar #35

[re: Pakistan-North Korea alliance]

Let us see. The Pressler Amendment says that any country developing nuclear weapons will be denied aid and Bush Sr. conveniently certifies Pakistan to be nuclear-free so that he can continue anti-Russian aid to the Afghan mujahideen.

Bush Jr. (through his mouthpiece Colin Powell) says that FUTURE transfers of nuclear technology to North Korea will result in penalties on Pakistan.

I say the time has come to sell the Bomb in the open market. If the Chinese and the Pakistanis can get away with it, why not anybody else?

I believe Gadhafi offered $1 billion a couple of decades back and surely the price has gone up since then. And to complicate matters, Taiwan could buy a dozen nukes to test the Chinese Communists` threat that they will invade if Taiwan acquires nukes. A nukefest between Beijing and Taiwan involving a dozen cities in mainland China ought to make for huge reductions in the world`s population not to mention reducing the Chinese lead in manufacturing Nike sneakers and Sony Discmans. A couple of nukes in the hands of Iran would be nice; they already have the deal with the North Koreans on missiles. A Bomb in the hands of the Kurds ought to keep the Turks honest and one in Chechnya would be peachy-keen. If Libya buys one, surely the Egyptians will come calling. And surely, the Saudis won`t want to be left behind.

Time for a garage sale!

rsridhar #44 you write ``Pak`s real enemies are within its borders. India is the projected enemy (projected by Pak`s army).``
Could have fooled me, given the nasty tone of many Indian posters (the arjuns and jays) on chowk. Or I suppose they do it out of habit - if it wasnt pakistan they would be at each others throats (like our mullahs).

Lest the chowkies feel i am the only person ranting about Islam, rest assured, there is at least one more person who feels the way i do:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/opinion/27RUSH.html

Excerpts from Rushdie`s column:
``Where, after all, is the Muslim outrage at these events? As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?

At least in Iran the students are demonstrating. But where else in the Muslim world can one hear the voices of the fair-minded, tolerant Muslim majority deploring what Nigerian, Egyptian, Arab and Dutch Muslims are doing? Muslims in the West, too, seem unnaturally silent on these topics. If you`re yelling, we can`t hear you.``

Sridhar

how can the achievements of burki possibly standup against the achievements of hindus on chowk (hoc)? burki after all has a diploma from some third rate correspondence university in the west. hoc’s on the other hand have access to the website of times of india. and while burki can only write meaningless books that no one reads, hoc can actually cut and paste articles from publications available to only the smartest people on earth. and while burki wastes his time hobnobing with third world types in london, ny and d.c, hoc actually get to interact with us.

it will be a proud day for the creators of chowk when people who reside in these spaces step up to the podium to collect their nobel peace prize and the nobel prize in economics.

re: Pak`s real enemies
Pak`s real enemies are within its borders. India is the projected enemy (projected by Pak`s army). This projection has worked well, so well that Pak`s military ruler has successfully installed a PM of his choice and will remote control everything of vital interest to the Pak army in future. Truely, a ``guided democracy`` as he called it.

Pak`s real enemies are the fundamentalist islamic elements. It was hair-raising to read how much sympathy Aimal Kansi received in Pak after his execution in US. After all, this man was just a common criminal, who killed some innocent Americans. Since when and how did he become a martyr? What is Islam`s definition of a martyr? Anyone (even a common criminal) who kills a non-muslim, better still an American? Thousands of Pakis flocked to his house and to his funeral. The MPs and the MLAs (NWFP) paid him tributes. How did this common criminal suddenly become a hero?
Some terrorists blew up a bus carrying children and family of security forces in Indian Kashmir. Some innocent people were killed in a temple blast in Jammu. It goes on and on. All in the name of islam. All these were just innocent civilians.
Before any Pakis paste anymore articles on Indian atrocities in Kashmir, let them explain all these incidents. Why is a religion being hijacked by terrorists? Why do Pakis not realise that they are ultimately going to be the targets and that what is happening in Kashmir is only a dress-rehearsal? Yes, BJP`s role in Gujarat pogrom was bad but at least some people are asking questions and the national media has ruthlessly exposed the culprits (one eg of that was given by the article in Outlook pasted on chowk by faisaluno #24). NObody in Pak is asking tough questions as to why fundamentalist elements are slowly taking over everything in that country.
Read the following by Tom Friedman and you realise how the west feels about Islam, its claim being a tolerant religon notwithstanding:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/1679099
Sridhar

Nawaid:

It does and it doesn`t. My problem with the Pakitan concept is that it ended up giving protection to the Muslims who needed it least ie ones in majority districts such as NWFP, West Punjab etc and left the most vulnerable Muslims, those in minority, in India ie. UP, Bihar, Maharashtra etc.

Not only did the creation of Pakistan weaken the political standing of Muslims in India, it made the Indian Muslims a convenient whipping bag for Indo-Pak relations. This was anticipated by the Muslim League and and Jinnah had talked about the ``Hostage Theory`` according to which large minorities in both countries would lead to equitable treatment for fear of reprisal. The Hindu and Sikh evacuation from Pakistan put paid to that. However, even at a hypothetical level, as a son of refugees, I find it extremely offensive for someone to hold my well-being hostage to another country`s treatment of their minorities.

So, was the TNT a success? I guess that depends on which side of the divide you stand. For Pakistani Muslims, yes, for Indian Muslims who are equally sizeable in number, No.

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#39 by stuka

thnx for the detail

>>>>>>[Historically, in India people have voted on community based lines after periods of communal tension. It is universally acknowledged that governance by BJP has been very poor in Gujarat. However, if historical trends follow through, then the Hindus will vote for a ``Hindu`` party and the Muslims would vote for a ``Secular`` party. Usually Hindu votes are divided, based on a combination of caste and performance issues. However, whenever a communal confalgration takes place, community members tend to come together. Hindus, being the majority, end up voting for a party they feel best represents Hindu interests.]<<<<<

so, it seems Sir Syed and Jinnah`s two nation theory is working but their counter`s secualr theory is falling apart....or i am not assessing it correctly?