Games Generals Play

One major difference, author forgot to mention. Musharraf is the only one who resurrected himself following dismissal and risen to the Presidency. Now it is upto MQM to grant him virgin birth too. No, no, no! I take that back because virgin birth will exclude him from aslaaf.
By the way, Zia was also sitting back, relaxing and had the last laugh over the skies of Bahawalpur.
Does the author know what constitution says about grabbing power through back door? The dictator is a traitor and not a patriot.

as a grown-up (!) looking at pictures from her first six years of childhood spent outside of Pakistan..I always wondered why there was a picture of Ayub Khan on our wall...I have no recollection of it being in our apartment in Minnesota. I still don`t understand why it was there. I have heard more jokes about Yahya`s wine and women than I have about his competency in leading a country. I never had any respect for a surma-rimmed man who suggested on national television that non-Muslims convert to Islam, and whose idea of competency in leading a country was the promotion of jahiliya..the more things change..the more they stay the same. Am still waiting and hoping for the dawn...it`s been darkness for far too long, and these eyes are getting old.
thank you Nafees Ghaznavi.

obviously the faujiz will have the last laugh. they have successfully barricaded any institution from evolving. no country can succeed without independent institutions.

i guess the faujiz can afford to have a free `fourth pillar` of the state. when all the other major foundations have been ripped apart, the press is incapable of representing the people on its own- no matter how good it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2509463.stm

unfortunately all we get is stale, cowardly generals from an incompetant who can`t even piss properly.

this Firdausi speaketh with a forked tongue -- like before -- your shahnama will do u no good -- your Ghaznavi WILL BE PROSECUTED -- this time -- for destroying the Temple of Democracy

nasah: The logic for supporting Musharraf given in this article or often presented by field marshal beats me. It is a standard line that politicians were bad, Asif Zardari 10 percent, baRi tind choti tind, 15th amndment and so onand ending up with statement that this one is a good general, rest were bad.
Don`t they realize that three COAS before this one saw all this what they are basing their arguement upon and preferred not to overthrow civilian governments. They were Asif Janjua, Wahid KakaR and Jahangir Karamat. I suppose they were not good because they opted not to do what Musharraf did.
Second point is their claim that this chowkidar is good. Chowkidar is a chowkidar at the bank. A good chowkidar at the door has no right to kick out manager because he thinks manager is no good.
Musharraf Ghaznavi is not going to sell his plots to pay Firdausi for writing Shahnama. One previous dictator wrote, ``Friends, not Masters`` and Musharraf will have his book, ``Friends not, Masters`` soon.

Gaznavi,

Another rant, repeated a thousand times. It is the educated confused pakistanis based in the west are worried about the generals. One has to look at it in terms of ground reality in pakistan, in terms of the demographics.

Half the population are women, they in any case have no role in anything other than producing children, which they are doing a good job. Of the remaining males, 30 percent are children, less than 18, another 20 percent are old and good for nothing types. That leaves only 25 percent of the population of some political susbstance.

A large part of them can be employed in the military and military related activities like making corn flakes ( hamidm fame). Remaining can be involved in the army of god.

This the emerging final shape of the beast created by one man on a typewriter. The educated like you have to ask the question, what is wrong with this, and this can survive till blasted to smitherin as part of war against terror. Instead of repeating what so many others have said, why cant you try and address the fundamental problem of jihadic value system that drives men to join the military, military of the generals, or that of god.

The presence of the american troops and the IMF noose is a good opportunity for pakistan to change only if the educated take the lead and show a way forward by declaring that the hindoos need not be killed for pakistan to prosper. Or at least as a first step, try and remove the school requirement of hindu identification.

While the generalas have only learned to withdraw, at least the army of god are manking some wins, LET and mujahideen have claimed responsibility for the temple attacks. The amry of gods of pakistan can be proud, what have the generals to show of.

A NEW GAME FOR THE GENERALS,

There is a new game coming up for the generals. It will start after the fall of Iraq. Already the generals are in a tight fix, more of it will come shortly as the war on terror rolls on.

Attack on the temples in India, two organisations in pakistan have claimed responsibility. The new game for the generals will be tretty simple, whom to surrender to, to the amricans or the indians. India has with drawn the troops because of US troops in pakistan, they have assured a slow return of pakistan to the early days of the book. The genrals game should be to achieve this as quickly as possible. If the americans do not deliver this india will have to do it.

Slowly the indians are realising that the issue is not kashmir, it is jihad, and there can be no solution other than a promise to deliver shehdad at the door step of every jihadist, the israeli way.

First things first. There is no subsitute for democracy. Secondly, Pakistan is not a democracy; it is a timocracy. Lastly, remember the salute given by the gladiators to the Roman emperor prior to their deaths, but above all else, consider the words of St. Augustine as he wrote them in his book, ``The Confessions`` and then quote the words of Sir Thomas More, which he said to the British parliament that condemned him to death and end your mediations with the curse shouted by Oliver Cromwell to the Long Parliament.

Ciao

re: nooralain


{suggested on national television that non-Muslims convert to Islam}

...what else is new...don`t you see, he was trying to show you the ``true path``...to ``save`` you...

``Thus the General deserves to be applauded for forcing a semblance of democracy to the working of political parties. ``

These political parties had to choose their Army-bootlicker-in-chief by ballot? How democratic of Musharraf to ask them to do so!

``Also at no time was the media, particularly television so free and so lively (in political debates and interviews) as it is at present under General Musharraf.``

Why be pathetically grateful for something which is every Pakistanis citizen`s right ? Ask the Army why this didnot happen before and what are the bounds they have set on this `freedom`?

``A great deal more has to be done to make these ‘champions of democracy’ democratic, tolerant and transparent first.``

As long as the `champions of democracy` have to prostitute themselves for the Army agenda(which is not transparent, tolerant or democratic) donot expect things to improve.

``However the results of the elections have made it possible for General Musharraf to sit back, relax and have the last laugh.``

Yes, first Zardari was released then Hafiz Saeed of LeT and the Sipah-e-Sahiba guy. Thats the cost of the coalition. How many people are going to pay in blood for this government?

And why does he still look so worried? Nuclear proliferation blues or Osama blues?

This is truly great wisdom. I suggest that there should be a pakistani delegation that would go around the world explaining how only military generals can save democracy. This will need a lot of explaining as most of us na-pak people seem to think that democracy is something you have to build step-by-step and over time.

But, of course, now there is a chance to enlighten us stupid folks by explaining how Pakistan, the leader in human rights, equal treatment of minorities and good relationships with its neighbors, has created its special system of khaki-ocracy.

This article would truly be hilarious and an amusing demonstration of political illiteracy, if only the kind of thinking it embodies were not the cause of 100s if not 1000s of deaths in South Asia.

``General Yahya Khan was a soldier of wine and roses.``

Stories circulating about our mard-i-momin(s) speak of the gilded age of Mohammed Shah Rangeela being born afresh. Crore commanders are parcelling out firing ranges to each other. Pimps are pulling the strings for all major transfers. And drunkards have the country in a choke-hold. Pakistan`s eventual tryst with the mullahs gets closer and closer. Nothing but pain and suffering lies ahead.

later
-sac

sameer

````Friends, not Masters`` and Musharraf will have his book, ``Friends not, Masters`` soon``

............ that is precious!

sax...#10
your wisdom never ceases to amaze me. how could i not have known that he, and others I went to school with were trying to show me the right path to salvation...*slaps hand on forehead*
;)

i agree with the author. mush’s presence can provide stability to the system.. in my previous life, i was a banker in pakistan and this role provided me with the opportunity to interact with some of the top paki entrepreneurs during a period which saw the reign of messrs. zardari, shariff and musharrif. to a person, the biggest reason cited for slow pace of investment by these entrepreneurs was the inconsistency in the government economic policy. the other big complaint was the unending hassle of dealing with leeches in public sector organizations like cbr, kesc/wapda and customs etc. there is no point in commenting on zardri’s tenure. (zardari actually cut the power supply to our building for two weeks in the middle of june because the owner of the building refused to sell him the property) n.s. did propose some bold economic reforms but he never implemented the bold part of his agenda. instead he just spent his time hounding his opponents while appointing his corrupt cronies on top of public sector organizations. cronies in turn turned a blind eye to the rot at the bottom because they themselves had their hands in the till. even when n.s. appointed decent people to organizations like ubl, his cronies never gave them a free hand. remember saifur rehman’s campign against ubl? if i remember correctly, saifur rehman actually kidnapped the ubl loan officer who was hounding him for loan repayments. mush on the other hand, while deserving gobs of criticism for being very timid on the political front does deserve credit for bringing about a semblance of sanity to the economic house. it is important to remember that he took power at a time when the banking sector was suffering from a serious crises in confidence because of default on foreign currency borrowed from individuals and foreign banks. mush’s team also deserves credit for the skillful handling of the riba issue because this was something that was giving rise to a great deal of uncertainty. mush’s team also deserves kudos for not squandering the aid that has flowed in after sep 11. god knows what bb/ns would have done with the money.

while a lot of good work has been done on the economic front, the real challenge now is going to be how the administration responds to the shenanigans of democratically elected ministers who are going to demand their pound of flesh. and since most of these ministers would probably be in power in a setup even without mush, the issue of comprises with the corrupt political class is moot anyway. having a clean person at the top can hopefully limit the damage these ministers are going to inflict.

faisaluno #16 Your cross-reference to your post on this board brings me here. you say ``mush on the other hand, while deserving gobs of criticism for being very timid on the political front does deserve credit for bringing about a semblance of sanity to the economic house. ``
mush is timid on the political front? He is timid LIKE A FOX: He has kept the spectre of the mullah alive, thus ensuring support from the west and from most pakistanis (who, like you, fault him on being timid when in fact you should fault him for playing with fire - i.e. islamic neanderthals - in order to stay in power).
He did put the fear of god on some looters of pakistan, but spared sons of fellow military generals (Zia`s son, Akhtar`s son) and some chosen others (at least one has made minister I see in this new govt). Aside from this gripe, I agree that he has done a good job of putting at least some thugs in the slammer and/or gotten them to cough up what they swallowed. The economy is moving? It is moving indeed - like a painted ship upon a painted ocean (to borrow lines from Coleridge).

{but spared sons of fellow military generals (Zia`s son, Akhtar`s son) and some chosen others (at least one has made minister I see in this new govt}.

you are right in your analysis, but for above, Ijaz and Humayon are sitting MNA since 1988, how can you blame Mushi for bringing them into assembly. the reason i can see (which may not be true) Humayon being in cabinet , he is the only sitting MNA of PML(Q) from Lahore, all other MNAs from Lahore belong to PML(N), PPP & MMA. Lahore is Pakistan number two city and few say its also Pakistan`s heart.it always had representation in cabinet. For Khi after MQM refusal PML(Q) has no choice, again MMA, and PPP are other parties. i dont recall any previous cabinet without a minister belongs to Khi.....may be after sanate elections(if Govt last by tht time) some one would join.

``General Yahya Khan was a soldier of wine and roses.``

when filmstar Tarana was visitng Presidency, she was stopped at the gate by the gurads for not having clearance and couple of them misbehaved to her, however, after her visit to President Yahya, she received full salute from guards. They knew now Trana has beocme Qaumi Trana (national anthem) and salute is necessary.

In Yahya`s time, most famous gernal was Gernal Rani and Madam Noorjehan was serving as Chief of Staff.

Yesterday Mushi distributed white paper and folders in Jamali`s cabinet meeting ,so all ministers can go through to his last 3 years performance and details of ongoing projects. That is one of the reason for Sheda Tali (Sheikh Rasheed) to form Govt`s media policy based on Mushi`s instructions rather then of Jamali`s, as he mentioned in his TV interview.

Off the record he revealed that folder handed over to Jamali by Mushi contains comrehensive diet and exercise program so Jami can lose some fats. Mush made it crystal clear that pulling back his tushi should be Jamali`s first priority as PM.

Hey Sameer -- did u write this column in Dawn about Musharraf Ghaznavi? -- r u the `Onlooker`??

Here it is:

Musharraf`s sand castle

(excerpts)

let me make it very clear, every one of the elected representative in the National Assembly, no matter to which party he/she belonged or how he/she got elected, has behaved most responsibly against the heaviest of odds put in the member`s way by the military regime of President General Pervez Musharraf which continues to insist on holding on to power no matter through what underhand method.

All those who voted for the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker and the Prime Minister and those who opposed them inside the House are all honourable people.

Compared to President Musharraf even Faisal Saleh Hayat seems to have behaved highly responsibly and honourably because had it not been for him and his bloc, Musharraf`s castle of sand would have simply collapsed within no time sending this nation on another journey into the unknown.

Faisal has put at stake everything in which he had believed in all these years and everything for which he had stood for along with the PPP leadership since he was elected to the parliament in 1977 on a PPP ticket. Of course, in return he and his friends were rewarded with some high profile ministries.

But by doing what he did, Faisal seems to have forfeited his future in electoral politics.

However, with his sacrifice he seems to have saved the country from further chaos which President Musharraf had already promised that he would cause when on August 24 he had warned while talking to media personalities what he would do if the future parliament did not accept him with his uniform.

Even those like the Chaudhry brothers and their PML-Q cabal, Farooq Leghari and his NA clan, and the MQM cult in the final analysis seem to have behaved much more responsibly and honourably than the President

because unlike Musharraf who refuses to see what he is doing to the country by holding the nation hostage to his own whims these politicians seem to have preferred to make costly political adjustments in order to retrieve the country from the depths that the Army leadership is trying to push it into.

And, of course, hats off to the MMA, the PPP and the PML-N.

Despite collectively possessing a mandate far more weighty than Musharraf`s own, these parties have made it very clear through their actions since the NA came into being that they would not do anything on their own to destabilize the elected government whose majority is completely dependent on the opposition.

The PPP, after the PML-N, has lost the most in the drama that Musharraf staged on October 10 and then on November 19 and 21.

But despite having emerged as the second largest party and despite having polled more votes than the PML-Q, the PPP`s leadership did not bargain for any relief for Zardari or Benazir Bhutto.

In fact it has preferred to allow the King`s alliance to form the government rather than enter into politically costly deals in return for an illusionary power with the Army constantly breathing down its neck.
______________________________________________________
However, if you think you can escape a charge just because you committed an illegality at a time when the relevant law was suspended, you are sadly mistaken.
________________________________________________________

Any Bachaa Saqqa can perform this sleight of hand. But he can hardly escape the long arm of law by conjuring up `artificialities` like forward blocs and rewarding almost every one of the bloc with a ministerial slot.

Attempts at passing off all these `artificialities` as new realities can hardly wash.

The tell-tale evidence of the unconstitutionality is all there for every one to see.

How can you look up at the President and not see his uniform?

How can you look at the parliament and not see its impotence vis-a-vis a serving COAS who refuses to allow the elected representatives of the 140 million people the power to go through the constitutional amendments made by one single individual who gets his salary from the taxpayers` contribution.

And how can you look at Faisal Saleh Hayat and not be reminded of horse trading?

These are just three questions which would take you back again and again into the dark alleys of LFO.

On Saturday the President advised the new parliament to forget about how it came into being and how sovereign it is and instead get on with what he called `nation building` work. Good advice.

But why can`t he himself take this advice for the sake of Pakistan and if he actually believes in his own slogan of `Pakistan First`.

What, however, he wants to achieve through this loaded advice is this: Now that I have obtained for myself the label of democracy, I would like the world to play the ostrich on issues like

my uniform,
my extra-constitutional powers and
my complicity in the on-going horse trading.
____________________________________________________
His predecessors too had followed the same story line but failed miserably before long to escape the long arm of law.
____________________________________________________

Well, Musharraf has travelled thus far `successfully` with the help of a pliable judiciary and by framing self-serving laws.

But, now that an elected parliament is in place, it is to be seen how long can he keep himself above the law of the land. -- Onlooker
(DAWN)

the moral of the story --

Ghaznavi`s Goose is cooked -- this Mahmood will not escape the LAW this time -- he WILL BE prosecuted for continued vandalizing of the Temple of Democracy -- only a matter of time --

smells a lot of Chowk -- doesn`t it:-)

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nasah #20 I think the next couple of years will be a struggle for power between musharaff and the parliament. Let us see who fires whom this time around.

GAMES PAKISTANIS PLAY

Demise of sovereignty



The United States recently executed Mir Aimal Kasi. That he was a murderer might be true, but the way he had been captured in Pakistan by the FBI was quite objectionable.

The question arises: can Pakistan arrest wanted criminals in the US without bypassing American laws? Clearly, the incident could be termed the demise of our sovereignty.

M. TAHIR GURCHANI

Islamabad

(2)

We, the students of a Karachi school, express our sorrow at the unfair execution of Mir Aimal Kasi. His execution was inhuman and should be condemned by all.

That the FBI was allowed to arrest Kasi and take him to the US without following any due process of law and in the absence of any extradition treaty between Pakistan and the US is all the more shocking. It can safely be said that Kasi was in fact kidnapped by the FBI. How many innocent Pakistanis will suffer in this manner before our conscience awakes?

SAD STUDENTS

Karachi
//////

aBOVE IS FROM DAWN OF TODAY.

The ones who wrote the above letters are the educated pf pakistan. What one can see is the same mindset that is on chowk, the posts of romair that support jihadic killings in the name of human rights, the urstrulies who find the jihadic fight as low cost military operation, modern progressive words to support the essentially barbaric traditions of killing the kafirs in the name of religion.

Here we have another two romairs, clothing barbarism as violation of sovereignity, the same outrage of temporal about the shootimg to death of pakistanis involved in killigs in india.
What these pakistanis should remeber is the case of omar sheikh. The stupid indian laws put this killer of german tourists in prison in india, he was released through a hijack operation. The great jihadist of omar went on to kill daniel pearl in pakistan.

The games that pakistanis play cannot appreciate that omar were shot dead in a shopping centre in delhi, may be many will not be killed in pakistan. The final proof came in the resolution by the newly elected pak paliment in honouring the great shaheed. What is pathetic is according to the social values of pakistan kasi wanted ti get killed and all that americans have done is to deliver him to the heaven.

The games that pakistanis play has to have the pretence of modernity, the question of soverignity while the most celebrate the martyrdom, delivered to kasi by the americans.

felicitations to isi for planting moles in the upper echelons of indian society.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20021202&fname=Tribunal+%28F%29&sid=1

Truth is like water. You can`t hold it back forever. It was in the June 3
issue that Outlook broke the story of a meeting on the night of February 27 at Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi`s official residence. Godhra had happened that day. Present at the meeting were senior ias and IPS officials. Modi told those present that a Hindu reaction to the Godhra train carnage was to be expected and that no one should come in the way of this backlash. The Outlook report was outright denied by Modi. But the controversial meeting at the CM`s residence has now been confirmed. An eight-memberinquiry commission-the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-which includes former judges of the Supreme and High Courts and retired IPS officials, released its findings in Ahmedabad on November 21, and it has confirmed the meeting.

The tribunal`s report also speaks of another similar meeting on the same
night in the backward Panchmahals district where the ``strategy of mass
murder, that was to follow, was chalked out in the presence of two ministers of the Modi cabinet``.

---The report is very clear on Modi`s role. ``Chief minister Narendra Modi is the chief author and architect of all that happened in Gujarat after the
arson of February 27, 2002. It is amply clear from all the evidence placed
before the tribunal that what began in Godhra could have, given the
political will, been controlled promptly at Godhra itself. Instead, the
state government under Shri Narendra Modi took an active part in leading and sponsoring the violence against minorities all over Gujarat. His words and actions throughout the developments in Gujarat show that he has been openly defying the Constitution and indulging in actions which are positively detrimental to the interests of the country

nawaid #19 While Ijazulhaq and Akhtar may have been MNAs in the past, that is no reason not to subject them to accountability and make them cough up their stolen wealth.
Nawaz Sharif and BB (to name the two most prominent people) have in the past been prime ministers and as such, by your reasoning, that would be enough to exempt them from corruption charges and make them eligible to run for office and become prime ministers again. I hope you see the defect in your reasoning.

faisaluno #24
You seem a bit of a lost soul so let me take pity and explain.

Noone blames the ISI for the Gujarat riots. On the contrary an election campaign is being fought which Modi is trying win by taking credit for the riots while also disowning all responsibility for the same riots at the same time. The Outlook and a number of people are trying to nail him to prevent him from doing that. Get it?

The incident for which ISI is blamed by a number of people, is the Godhra incident which just preceded the riots, ie, the incident in which 58 train passengers were burnt to death in a town called Godhra when a mob was stoning their train.

When one quotes the Indian press, its best to know why one is quoting it.

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#25 by tahmed32
Actually i was`nt talking about their corruption etc as i am not aware of any charges agaisnt them. may b officially no charges coz army is protecting Ijaz and Akhtar, but i cant understand BBs 5 year of rule in two terms,,,, why PPP didnt file any corruption charges against them as done against NS. After all Ijaz is son of Zia who is responsible for Bhutto`s execution.......May be BB was also afraid of Army......if this is te case then why blame Army and Mushraf for all mess.

BBC always use this line in news`` Gen Mushraf took power in bloodless coup three years ago``.......

nobody is realising why it always bloodless coup in Pakistan,,,,why people come out on street to dance rather then to protest on army takeovers.

these days PML(N) is becoming the champion of democracy and every body from the party including Raja Zafar (who is also a production of Zia) is criticising Mr Mushraf but no body asking a single question from NS who provided army a chance to take over and ran away from the country. I should give all credit to Asif Zaradi who spent last 7 & half years out of 10 in Jail, irrespective of what facilities he has in there, Jail is always Jail. and BABA JAHMORIAT , Nawabzada sending message of thanks to Mr NS.

its intresting that people of Paksitan blame Mushraf all the time and Ch Shujat who always lined up with army got 100,000 votes in election and he will continue to win more elections, might become new PM.

sadna #27

On this one I am with faisaluno. He is suggesting that Modi is an ISI agent! Heh, heh, I have often suggested this angle as well.

There could be no better characterization of this slime-ball. With ``leaders`` like this, the ISI might as well declare victory and disband.

24#faisaluno

{The report is very clear on Modi`s role. ``Chief minister Narendra Modi is the chief author and architect of all that happened in Gujarat }

but it seems, Gujrat people not going to believe that, its clear that BJP going to win next month elections with good margin. In world`s biggest secualr democracy Hinduism card is working effectively for BJP.

Yesterday in HardTalk Yashwant Sinha refused to accept any human rights or foreign govt report on Gujrat`s riots and role of chief minister, and was more willing to dicuss the role of Mufti Saeed and ISI . He even refused to call Gujrat massacre as massacre, he was showing more satisfaction that death numbers are not in two thousands but its only 790 something.

I ll be greatful if someone living in Gujrat can highlight BJP,s performance , i just want to know why Gujrat people still prefer BJP over others specially Congress party with most secular image. and what about muslim voters, why they are still with BJP or BJP lost them?

#30 nawaid

I wouldn`t be so sure that Gujarat will be a BJP victory. Modi will probably slip through (shame ! shame !) and be returned to spread his poison. But I think otherwise that the Congress will give him a good run for the money. Many analysts think it will break at 50-50.

nawaid (post # 30)

sir:

you obviously are not a follower of alon pincus/ benjamin netanyahu/ u.s. congress school of political philosophy. it is not for us to question or even understand the ways of people who live in democracies. for when an individual enters a voting booth, he or she establishes a direct connection to a higher power that gives him or her insights far beyond the understanding of us ordinary mortals. citizens of democracies are therefore guided by the highest ethical and moral principles and any action they undertake is only for the betterment of humankind. narendra modi’s action must be seen in this light. voters in gujrat are simply rewarding him for upholding justice in the face of savage attacks. it should also be obvious that people who write reports criticizing him, like the people who were questioning the shopping mall incident are in the clutch of evil. hope narendra modi has the strength to fight on.

nawaid #28 I think it is perfectly legitimate to criticize Musharaff, or any other head of state (including someone who became head of state through a more legitimate process than a coup detat) even if people were dancing in the streets when he took over from NS. Musharraf has done some things right (e.g. cozied up with the US, NAB, and so forth) and many things wrong (in my view): Kargill, not cracking down hard on islamists, selective accountability, and so forth. He deserves criticism for that, even if he is a more sincere man than BB, or a smarter chap than NS.

Ref faisaluno #24

News item:
[KADUNA, Nigeria (Nov. 22) - At least 105 people have been killed in riots in Nigeria stoked by Muslim fury over the country`s staging of the Miss World contest next month, Red Cross officials said on Friday.

More than 500 people have also been injured in the street riots in the northern city of Kaduna, where enraged youths have torched churches and mosques.]

So, it is okay for you mufukka Muslim thugs to kill because somebody said that Prophet Muhammad (he of the 20 wives including 6-year-old Ayesha) might have married a beauty queen but it is not okay for Gujarati Hindus to avenge the killing of 60+ passengers on the train at Godhra?

re:#24 by faisaluno
No one in his/her right senses will deny Modi`s role in the Gujarat pogrom. So what is your point in posting the article from an Indian newsmagazine? It is good that Modi will be booked in future for his crime. Justice in India is painfully slow. I hope it happens.
sridhar

re: Pakistan-North Korea alliance

Pakistan seems to be making news lately. As always,for the wrong reasons. Pakistan`s quid pro-quo with North korea, wherein former got missiles in return for bartering nuclear secrets to the latter` is a case of perfect marriage. Both sides come out satisfied after a serious engagement.
I always knew Musharraf to be a great ``whore`` who can always satisfy his clients. I, however, am surprised he is not an intelligent but a ``stupid`` whore. Doing this under the very nose of Uncle Sam, using the very transport plane given to Pakis to assist locate Al-quaida, is a stupidity that only Mushy is capable of.
Read the following links (only a few that i post here; google search gives you more than 50) to understand why Pakistan would soon (by soon i mean after this Iraqi business is taken care of) be in deep SH!T and i mean deep SH!T.
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/pak021126.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134582675_pakkorea24.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/78043.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/24/international/asia/24KORE.html?ex=1038718800&en=ab75b82c5f75e2aa&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
Even Paki`s favourite Indian journalist Praful Bidwai reluctantly concedes that Pakistan has stretched itself too thin this time around: http://www.antiwar.com/bidwai/bidwai-col.html

What says our Chowk`s General Romair to all this?
Sridhar

rsridhar #36 ``So what is your point in posting the article from an Indian newsmagazine?``
I think the point is the same that Jay and some others have been seeking to make over and over again when they post critical articles from Pakistan press: i.e. one-up-man-ship, rather than a genuine concern for the sufferings of the poor people of the subcontinent and for the future of that part of the world.

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Nawaid:

``I ll be greatful if someone living in Gujrat can highlight BJP,s performance , i just want to know why Gujrat people still prefer BJP over others specially Congress party with most secular image.``

Historically, in India people have voted on community based lines after periods of communal tension. It is universally acknowledged that governance by BJP has been very poor in Gujarat. However, if historical trends follow through, then the Hindus will vote for a ``Hindu`` party and the Muslims would vote for a ``Secular`` party. Usually Hindu votes are divided, based on a combination of caste and performance issues. However, whenever a communal confalgration takes place, community members tend to come together. Hindus, being the majority, end up voting for a party they feel best represents Hindu interests. In 1984, the Congress won on a wave of symoathy and anti-Sikh sentiment.

``and what about muslim voters, why they are still with BJP or BJP lost them? ``

The Muslims never voted for the BJP, so the BJP does not care about Muslim votes. It`s like the Republicans and the African Americans...neither does anything for the other.

#39 by stuka

thnx for the detail

>>>>>>[Historically, in India people have voted on community based lines after periods of communal tension. It is universally acknowledged that governance by BJP has been very poor in Gujarat. However, if historical trends follow through, then the Hindus will vote for a ``Hindu`` party and the Muslims would vote for a ``Secular`` party. Usually Hindu votes are divided, based on a combination of caste and performance issues. However, whenever a communal confalgration takes place, community members tend to come together. Hindus, being the majority, end up voting for a party they feel best represents Hindu interests.]<<<<<

so, it seems Sir Syed and Jinnah`s two nation theory is working but their counter`s secualr theory is falling apart....or i am not assessing it correctly?

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Nawaid:

It does and it doesn`t. My problem with the Pakitan concept is that it ended up giving protection to the Muslims who needed it least ie ones in majority districts such as NWFP, West Punjab etc and left the most vulnerable Muslims, those in minority, in India ie. UP, Bihar, Maharashtra etc.

Not only did the creation of Pakistan weaken the political standing of Muslims in India, it made the Indian Muslims a convenient whipping bag for Indo-Pak relations. This was anticipated by the Muslim League and and Jinnah had talked about the ``Hostage Theory`` according to which large minorities in both countries would lead to equitable treatment for fear of reprisal. The Hindu and Sikh evacuation from Pakistan put paid to that. However, even at a hypothetical level, as a son of refugees, I find it extremely offensive for someone to hold my well-being hostage to another country`s treatment of their minorities.

So, was the TNT a success? I guess that depends on which side of the divide you stand. For Pakistani Muslims, yes, for Indian Muslims who are equally sizeable in number, No.

re: Pak`s real enemies
Pak`s real enemies are within its borders. India is the projected enemy (projected by Pak`s army). This projection has worked well, so well that Pak`s military ruler has successfully installed a PM of his choice and will remote control everything of vital interest to the Pak army in future. Truely, a ``guided democracy`` as he called it.

Pak`s real enemies are the fundamentalist islamic elements. It was hair-raising to read how much sympathy Aimal Kansi received in Pak after his execution in US. After all, this man was just a common criminal, who killed some innocent Americans. Since when and how did he become a martyr? What is Islam`s definition of a martyr? Anyone (even a common criminal) who kills a non-muslim, better still an American? Thousands of Pakis flocked to his house and to his funeral. The MPs and the MLAs (NWFP) paid him tributes. How did this common criminal suddenly become a hero?
Some terrorists blew up a bus carrying children and family of security forces in Indian Kashmir. Some innocent people were killed in a temple blast in Jammu. It goes on and on. All in the name of islam. All these were just innocent civilians.
Before any Pakis paste anymore articles on Indian atrocities in Kashmir, let them explain all these incidents. Why is a religion being hijacked by terrorists? Why do Pakis not realise that they are ultimately going to be the targets and that what is happening in Kashmir is only a dress-rehearsal? Yes, BJP`s role in Gujarat pogrom was bad but at least some people are asking questions and the national media has ruthlessly exposed the culprits (one eg of that was given by the article in Outlook pasted on chowk by faisaluno #24). NObody in Pak is asking tough questions as to why fundamentalist elements are slowly taking over everything in that country.
Read the following by Tom Friedman and you realise how the west feels about Islam, its claim being a tolerant religon notwithstanding:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/1679099
Sridhar

how can the achievements of burki possibly standup against the achievements of hindus on chowk (hoc)? burki after all has a diploma from some third rate correspondence university in the west. hoc’s on the other hand have access to the website of times of india. and while burki can only write meaningless books that no one reads, hoc can actually cut and paste articles from publications available to only the smartest people on earth. and while burki wastes his time hobnobing with third world types in london, ny and d.c, hoc actually get to interact with us.

it will be a proud day for the creators of chowk when people who reside in these spaces step up to the podium to collect their nobel peace prize and the nobel prize in economics.

Lest the chowkies feel i am the only person ranting about Islam, rest assured, there is at least one more person who feels the way i do:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/opinion/27RUSH.html

Excerpts from Rushdie`s column:
``Where, after all, is the Muslim outrage at these events? As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?

At least in Iran the students are demonstrating. But where else in the Muslim world can one hear the voices of the fair-minded, tolerant Muslim majority deploring what Nigerian, Egyptian, Arab and Dutch Muslims are doing? Muslims in the West, too, seem unnaturally silent on these topics. If you`re yelling, we can`t hear you.``

Sridhar

rsridhar #44 you write ``Pak`s real enemies are within its borders. India is the projected enemy (projected by Pak`s army).``
Could have fooled me, given the nasty tone of many Indian posters (the arjuns and jays) on chowk. Or I suppose they do it out of habit - if it wasnt pakistan they would be at each others throats (like our mullahs).

Ref rsridhar #35

[re: Pakistan-North Korea alliance]

Let us see. The Pressler Amendment says that any country developing nuclear weapons will be denied aid and Bush Sr. conveniently certifies Pakistan to be nuclear-free so that he can continue anti-Russian aid to the Afghan mujahideen.

Bush Jr. (through his mouthpiece Colin Powell) says that FUTURE transfers of nuclear technology to North Korea will result in penalties on Pakistan.

I say the time has come to sell the Bomb in the open market. If the Chinese and the Pakistanis can get away with it, why not anybody else?

I believe Gadhafi offered $1 billion a couple of decades back and surely the price has gone up since then. And to complicate matters, Taiwan could buy a dozen nukes to test the Chinese Communists` threat that they will invade if Taiwan acquires nukes. A nukefest between Beijing and Taiwan involving a dozen cities in mainland China ought to make for huge reductions in the world`s population not to mention reducing the Chinese lead in manufacturing Nike sneakers and Sony Discmans. A couple of nukes in the hands of Iran would be nice; they already have the deal with the North Koreans on missiles. A Bomb in the hands of the Kurds ought to keep the Turks honest and one in Chechnya would be peachy-keen. If Libya buys one, surely the Egyptians will come calling. And surely, the Saudis won`t want to be left behind.

Time for a garage sale!

Lest the chowkies feel i am the only person ranting about hindus on chowk, rest assured, there is at least one more person who feels the way i do:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A4544-2002Aug27?language=printer

Excerpts from Rushdie`s column:

``Nor is Kashmir the only South Asian grievance. The massacres in the Indian state of Gujarat, mostly of Indian Muslims by fundamentalist Hindu mobs, have been shown to be the result of planned attacks led by Hindu political organizations. But in spite of testimony presented to a congressional commission, the U.S. administration has done nothing to investigate U.S.-based organizations that are funding these groups, such as the World Hindu Council. Just as American Irish fundraisers once bankrolled the terrorists of the Provisional IRA, so, now, shadowy bodies across America are helping to pay for mass murder in India, while the U.S. government turns a blind eye. Once again, the supposedly high-principled rhetoric of the ``war against terror`` is being made to look like a smoke screen for a highly selective pursuit of American vendettas``.

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faisaluno #50
``shadowy bodies across America are helping to pay for mass murder in India, while the U.S. government turns a blind eye``

I am sorry that Muslims had to be brutally killed in India for Pakistanis like you to understand how Indians feel about organisations like JeM and LeT operating freely in Pakistan, collecting money to kill Indians and actually kill Indians for 5-7 years while the US government turns a blind eye( until the Indian Army threatened war last Dec).

Indians have to cope with both our own and your crap as well, no thanks to you.

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re:#46 by harimau
What you say may still happen. US has shown the world it is not serios about proliferaton. This sends a wrong signal. India, as the largest democracy and a nation of 1 billion people, should have no compulsions in selling nuclear tech to any country that offers a good price. After all, what incentive India has for not selling.
One way to pay back Chinkoos in the same coin would be to transfer nuclear tech to Taiwan and put to rest any speculations of an invasion from the mainland ever happening in future. Also, India can seriously start discussions about co-operation in nuclear areas with Vietnam.
US does not care about India. I am surprised Indian politicians run to US everytime Pak does something, the way a kid in school runs to his schoolteacher, when he is taunted by his schoolmate. It is time India realised it is in this alone. Take the US factor out of your mind and do what you would if US were not there.
sridhar

re:#50 by faisaluno
I suggest you think before you post anything. Go over in your mind why you are posting an article. My purpose is not to demean a religion. I have a lot of respect for Islam as a religion. My purpose is to point out why so many people have been silent. We should be seeing a mass demonstration against something like what happened in Nigeria or Bali. But none of that has happened. By remaining silent on important issues, majority of good muslims have given away their freedom to some fundamentalist elements who decide what is right or wrong for Islam.

Most hindus do not deny allegations of misdeeds by VHP or anyone else for that matter connected with Gujarat pogrom. Media has exposed Modi like nobody else. You yourself posted an article from Outlook about an investigation by an independent group that found fault with Modi. Rushdie is not new to India. He is a regular visitor and knows the Indian scene well. He has rightly criticised international agencies who have not done much to pressurise BJP on Modi`s misdeeds. Nemesis will catch up with Modi one day. Fortunately, his brand of politics has not spread beyond Gujarat.
My purpose of posting Rushdie`s article has been to show there is at least one muslim bemoaning the fact that muslim intelligentia is silent while fundamentalists are taking over. By not responding to that, you have only reinforced my belief that the silent majority is in fact in silent approval of the misdeeds of these fundamentalist elements. I expect at least some enlightened muslims in chowk to come openly and say what happened in Bali or Nigeria are deplorable. But, people have been silent so far. I may here remind chowkies that when Gujarat pogrom happened, many Indians in Chowk deplored the mideeds of Modi and his ilk right away. We did not wait for any proof. We do not have to. What is wrong is wrong and needs to be deplored.

Sridhar

``Gujarat pogrom happened, many Indians in Chowk deplored the mideeds of Modi and his ilk right away``(sridhar)

deplored? -- say CONDEMNED..

Hi, I thought the following report might be of interest to chowkies, Here it is:

In a shock conclusion to the BBC’s unique reality drama, featuring former White House officials trying to head off nuclear war on the sub-continent, the US `president` threatens India with military force unless it agrees to a stand-still ceasefire

The surprising decision by the BBC’s fictional US president, played by former US Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia, Karl Inderfurth, was broadcast to British audiences on Wednesday night.

The 90-minute documentary, The Situation Room, offers a fly-on-the-wall view of White House crisis-management, in the room where every major emergency since the Bay of Pigs has been discussed.

The programme is given weight by its heavy-hitter cast of Washington political insiders, including President Bush Senior’s former confidante Arnold Kantor; former National Security Council member Robert Oakley; former CIA head Milton Bearden; former Ambassador to India Tom Pickering; Clinton chief of staff John Podesta; Clinton press secretary Joe Lockhart

The programme is thought to be heading for Indian viewers via BBC World, but some India watchers said its extraordinary, even possibly unwarranted conclusion, may not go down well in Delhi.

But in an early attempt to forestall both Indian and Pakistani objections, programme producer Susan O’Keeffe, who has worked in Jammu and Kashmir, insisted to this paper that she ``believed in the integrity of the programme``.

She said ``a lot of the people I spoke to were Indians`` and insisted the BBC ``had made a credible attempt at being calm and sensible about the whole thing``.

As first revealed in this paper, the BBC’s self-confessed ``plausible, hypothetical scenario`` involves an Indo-Pak war in April 2004. After the Indian defence minister is assassinated, Indian troops march on Karachi and a desperate Pakistani president tells the White House he has no choice but to use nuclear weapons.


With Podesta revealed to be the only reluctant member of a room full of hawkish Washington insiders, ‘President’ Inderfurth’s men discuss the possible use of B-52 bombers and US ground forces against the Indian Army.


The fictional US secretary of state shrugs as he admits the future will be 25 years of bad relations with India.


But to balance its actions vis-a-vis India, the Situation Room embarks on a covert operation to take-out Lashkar e-Taiba, something ‘President’ Inderfurth is urged to offer to India as the price of ceasefire and withdrawal from Pakistan.


The documentary is said by some to mark a political coup for the BBC, with its all-star cast and the creation of a new reality docu-drama genre.

Ref a_kaul73 #58

[Hi, I thought the following report might be of interest to chowkies, Here it is:

In a shock conclusion to the BBC’s unique reality drama, featuring former White House officials trying to head off nuclear war on the sub-continent, the US `president` threatens India with military force unless it agrees to a stand-still ceasefire ]

Yaaaaawn!

What do you think happened in 1971?

A very balanced analysis of Pakistan`s leadership history. Sounds a lot like what Mazari wrote in, ``A Journey to Disallousinement.``

Usually when General`s describe the history, they forget their own faults. When civlian leaders describe the history, they forget theirs.

When the final history of Pakistan is written, it will say the following:
a country with relatively capable people, led by the most incompetent leaders in the world.

A better title for this piece would have been, ``Games leaders play.``

a_kaul73#58
``a desperate Pakistani president tells the White House he has no choice but to use nuclear weapons. ``

IMO, here is the fundamental mistake made by the US players. They assume there will be someone in the Pakistani Army chain of command who will bother to check with the US before making use of an opportunity to kill hundreds of thousands of dirty infidels in one go.

White House staffer, Bruce Reidel revealed how even during Kargil, satellite picture picked up how the Pakistani Army had begun assembling its nuclear weaponry. They were thwarted by Clinton and Nawaz Sharif on that occasion. What makes the US think the PA brass will stand to be thwarted a second time?

If it is to preserve itself from the inevitable(in my opinion) nuclear war, Indians must prepare themselves for nuclear retaliation and recovery from nuclear attack.

Also, this simulation shows, even when India is under attack, it will likely have to act alone to protect itself and have to even confront the US to do so. Hence IMO, India needs to work on ICBMs as a statement of our intent to preserve ourselves in an otherwise(in my view) inevitable confrontation.

Did a search of google with words: ``Bruce Reidel Kargil satellite Pakistani Army nuclear weaponry`` and found this: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE5-1/narayanan.html.

I predict in years to come there will attempt to achieve ``balance of doctrines`` in the sense that India will evolve a doctrine of second use which will be as frightening as Pakistan`s doctrine of first use. Pakistan`s doctrine is really no doctrine because there is hardly any attempt to define threshold which will trigger its operation. Real use of such doctrines is deterrence. And deterrence works not by what you do or what you are capable of doing but by what your enemy thinks you will do and whether your enemy thinks you have capability of doing it.

-ew

sadna

``Also, this simulation shows, even when India is under attack, it will likely have to act alone to protect itself and have to even confront the US to do so.``

Since simulation involved top-level people from the govt it does portray the way Americans look at the whole affair. To understand the mindset of American govt insiders, the Indians should go through the talks between Zhou en Lai, Henry Kissinger and Nixon that Indian Epress published some time back. Pakistan is a pliable ally that US would hate to lose and I would not be surprised if US went againt India at the critical juncture. In this case I like the approach of Chinese. Basically, lie low and develop your economic and military capabilities. For that you have to swallow your stupid pride and cautiously cooperate with US for mutual benefits. At the same time keep building your defenses against Uncle Tom and your enemies. I admire Chinese for doing exactly that. Bheeshma gave this mantra to Yudhisthira on how to manage foreign policy while on his deathbed . ``Strength respects strength`` will always remain true.

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einsteinwallah #62
Thanks. I tried ``Bruce Reidel AND Nawaz Sharif`` and got this :

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/casi/reports/RiedelPaper051302.htm
American Diplomacy and the 1999 Kargil Summit at Blair House

Pankaj #63
I too admire the Chinese sense of self-sufficiency without hangups. I hope what you recommend is what the govt. is doing.

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einsteinwallah #62 I dont care much for our military nowadays, and regardless of whether or not Pakistan has a nuclear strategy, the fact is that mere possession of the nukes coupled with a couple of well-timed missile shots stopped the bjp paper tigers and their million man army dead in their tracks earlier this year.

PS: I can just imagine Powell dismissing a nuclear attack on India using the same argument with which he dismissed all of Pakistan nuclear proliferation to N. Korea from as early as BB`s tenure (much before the nuclear tests) to as late as July this year ``I donot wish to talk of the past for obvious reasons. I have spoken to Gen. Musharraf and he has given me an assurance that he is 400% certain no such activity is taking place at this time``

After the second nuclear attack Powell will be asked again and he will say ``As I already told you, Gen. Musharraf assured me with 400% certainity that no such activity is taking place and I have full confidence in him that he has been working sincerely toward fulfilling that assurance ``

Even to reduce loss of Indian lives in the short term, India should never depend on US assurances in its relations with Pakistan. Both the assurances US gives us and the assurances they claim they get from Pakistan are nothing but a load of lies. If we are criminally stupid enough to believe these lies, we will end up losing a lot more Indian lives in the long run.

PPS
And I think we should withdraw our no first use policy.

I would like all to read the post for a better historiography on

GENESIS OF RUTHLESS AUTHORITARIANISM AND UNDEMOCRATIC MODE OF GOVERNANCE IN THE EARLY YEARS OF PAKISTAN(1947-’55) [PART I and II]

By M. Waheeduzzaman Manik

#184 by mwzaman on January 3, 2000 1:04am PT

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000687&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

I know that Musharraf would also be added to it by our future historiographers and would make us wiser at the hind sight. Let us hope that PAkistan would not be too late by then.??

Re the article:
The author would certainly be given a chance by the General to head his band brigade!!!

````Thus the General deserves to be applauded for forcing a semblance of democracy to the working of political parties. Also at no time was the media, particularly television so free and so lively (in political debates and interviews) as it is at present under General Musharraf. A great deal more has to be done to make these ‘champions of democracy’ democratic, tolerant and transparent first. However the results of the elections have made it possible for General Musharraf to sit back, relax and have the last laugh. ````
Come on !!! can you dare to speak the truth against the existing dictator????

Cheers!!!!