My Little Bit of Hindu

Urstruly #165

Here are some you forgot:

India is actually derived from Indra, a war-like god from the Vedas !! See even the name of the benighted country is a threat to its neighbors !

Hindu is actually a corruption of Sindhu. This means these bizarre people have actually named themselves after a province of Pakistan. Who can doubt their naked aggressiveness and territorial ambitions !

I think it is clear now that we are dealing with a worldwide Zionist-Hindu conspiracy of the worst kind. Prithvi in fact, stands not only for Prithiviraj Chauhan but it also stands for Prithveon ben Abraham, a 2nd century jewish general!

Thank you for revealing the truth to all of us.

Re: Ustruly (165)

That’s a cop out and a cheap shot!
I can fully understand why you don’t want to prolong this discussion. We have both been around the block a few times on Chowk but you know fully well that I have at no point agued that Pakistanis are hatemongers or that Indian missiles are harmless.
When I pointed out the paranoia of the Pakistani establishment I was not necessarily vilifying the Pakistani people. And as far as rsridhar goes, he represents neither the Indian people nor me. If he thought that Prithvi was for Prithviraj Chauhan then he’s lost it too.

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re: #166

...ouch, laying the smack down on tahmed...

re: romair

{Even on that line, Pakistan has approved a pipeline from Iran to India. Yet India is still hesitant to accept it.}

...geee, i wonder why...

...here`s a clue: the next time pakistan feels frisky about kashmir, that pipeline will become a blackmail tool...and when it is functional, a good % of the rent from that pipeline will go to buy chest-strap-on bombs for friends of lashkar-e-t to use in kashmir...

...surely you don`t think the baniya is stupid enough to not see that...

sadna #166 You mean to tell me that jay has been writing on chowk to express his horror at female infanticide in India all this time? I think it is very clear to anyone except the totally blind that he uses every excuse he can find (honor killings being his favorite one) to vent his hatreds?
You further misrepresent what I wrote by presuming that my comments - specifically directed to jay - apply to all ``Indian chowkies``. Given this attitude, I cannot have a discussion of any kind with you, and will not be responding to any further comments you may have.

The happy one

You made such a pwerful case that you have convinced me thoroughly that Paksitanis are hatemongers and Indians are peacelovers whose missiles will deliver rose petals at their targets. However, you own countrymen are not covinced of your assertions. See #143 by rsridhar. Can you also convince him.

rsridhar

I dont hate hindus.

tahmed32 #164
``Of course one wont hear a peep out of jay on this. (female foeticide)``

There was an article published on chowk recently on this subject, kindly read the responses before commenting on Indian chowkies response to someone raising the subject of female foeticide in India. Noone in my knowledge said for example, that Ms Bina Shah is hatemongering or asked why Pakistanis are `obsessed with India`.

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001568&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1
The Endangered Species by Bina Shah



dost-mittar #whichever
The fact is you will continue to get a merry-go-round ride on generalities, you will NEVER get even an acknowledgement of uncomfortable specifics from the humanist lobby.

One simple example relevant to this article is that there has NEVER been an honest acknowledgement of the anti-Hindu element in education in Pakistan, though multiple references have been provided to bear this out on several occasions. Any poster posting these references only gets the general abuse treatment by self-righteous chowkies for `hate-mongering`.

Is it hatemongering to a. teach children to view Hindus negatively or
is it hatemongering to b. mention the above fact or
is it hatemongering to c. abuse anyone who mentions the above fact?

a. and c. is my answer but b. is all you get on any subject the insaaniyat lobby feels uncomfortable. Doesnot seem to me there is much insaaniyat being put into practice though it is certainly PREACHED.

As a Hindu who is not Pakistani, what is taught about Hindus in Pakistan doesnot concern me unless I plan to interact with Pakistanis or as it affects their relations with India as Amit said.

But given the published article by the author(where is he?) the issue he raises is just not being addressed honestly.

Amit #155: You have made some valid points. I partially agree.

However, I think Indians are greatly misinformed about Pakistanis` attitude towards India. A lot of that is due to the Indian press (I follow is regularly) and a lot of that is due to the lack of knowledge about Pakistan in India.

In my opinion, Pakistanis have been far far more receptive of the good things that have and are coming from India, than many Indians think. Music, movies, entertainment, etc. in Pakistan are now dominated by India. On the whole, Pakistanis interact far more with Indians, than vice-versa. You can see that here on this site. Pakistanis can go in length about various Indian aspects of life. SameerJB, temporal, tahamad, etc. (I am going to put myself in this category also) have extensive knowledge of some aspect of India. Even young kids like AnNy and ylh. My last name is, ``Indian.`` And so is that of eveyone in my family and they have yet to change it, nor have dropped many of their, ``Hindu Indian`` customs. So Pakistanis aren`t as antogonistic as many Indians may think them to be.

I have however, yet to see or met any Indian who can commment correctly about Pakistan in detail. Their are many, including yourself, who comment very politely. And that is appreciated. But how many really know the internals of Pakistan? I think very few, if any Indians, know Pakistan`s ethos, its motivations, its culture through first hand experience etc.

Because of this, I think Pakistanis do not get as effected by Pakistani govts.`/press propoganda about India, as much as vice-versa. Go to the remotest parts of Pakistan, and you will see two things: a mosque and an Indian video shop. Go to Liberty Market in Lahore and you will hear A.R. Rahman`s Vande-Mataram. Even anti-Pakistan Indian movies like Mission Kashmir, Pukar etc. do booming business in Pakistan.

I do however think Indians are effected greatly by their govts.` proganda against Pakistan. There is generally a vacuum in their knowledge of Pakistan, and it gets filled by whatever is supplied by their govt. and the press. They have nothing to counter it with. This could be due to the smaller size of Pakistan and its media and entertainment industry in comparison to India etc. Or it could be a lack of attempt on Indian`s part to approach Pakistanis.

The other thing you have to remember is that India, ``is`` a threat to Pakistan, as a country. While Pakistan, ``is not`` a threat to India as a country, even if it wanted to be (other than nukes). This is because India is seven to eight times the size of Pakistan. Imagine if a country with a population of 8 billion people (more than the whole population of the world) and the size of the USSR, with a $70 billion dollar defense budget, 3 million soldiers and eight times the economy was threatening India, by piling up all its army on India`s border - or with its PM stating that it wanted to destroy India, once and for all. What would be India`s reaction? These are exactly the ratios that India has with respect to Pakistan. In that light, don`t you think Pakistanis` fears, mistrusts etc. have some sound basis.

In a recent survey in Herald about concerns of Pakistani citizens, overty and unemployment were one. Attack by India was number two. Kashmir was number seven or so. And return to democracy was even behind Kashmir.

MFN is a debate, related to talks. Pakistan has been asking India to at least talk with Pakistan. If we assume that India and Pakistan both hate each other equally and both have equivalent complaints against each other, then both should not talk to each other. Yet Pakistan is repeatedly asking India for talks (as is the rest of the world). One has to talk first and then get to MFN, etc. Even on that line, Pakistan has approved a pipeline from Iran to India. Yet India is still hesitant to accept it.

In this sense, I disagree with your analysis about Pakistanis` misperceptions about Indians. I think Indians have far more misperceptions about Pakistan, than vice-versa. Heck, I regularly find myself explaining Indian movies and actresses to Indians on this site (seriously). I am still waiting for any Indian with whom I can discuss an Anjuman or Mustapha Qureshi movie :) And I doubt I will ever hear Junoon`s rendition of Pak Sar Zameen in India`s equivalent of Liberty Market.

I think Indians need to understand that they are so much bigger in size than Pakistan, that Pakistan cannot do anything to them, even if it wants to. India has to take the elder, more confident and responsible brother`s role, and act as a leader in South Asia. Much like the US does in the Western world. However, the way to such leadership is not by threatening smaller countries. There should not even be a perception of a threat, since smaller countries are jumpy to begin with, when faced by a huge neighbor. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc. all feel threatened by India, in some way. And thus refuse to accept it as a leader. India will be more successful in obtaining a leadership role if it creates an atmosphere where others accept India voluntarily as a leader. Any large country that has tried to force its way into leadership (USSR being a good example) has adversely effected the surrounding countries and itself.

For starters, I think to take a leadership role, India should:

- Agree to talk to Pakistan. I am afraid that pretty soon the pressure on Pakistani politicians maybe such that they are going to stop offering talks again and again. It is quite embarrasing to ask someone to talk and then keep getting refused. Imagine the situation, if Pakistan also says it will not talk.

- India should agree to the pipeline (which it may already have agreed to - I am not sure).

- India should take a leadership role of South Asia by trying to solve South Asian problems.

- Indians should attempt to start understanding Pakistanis and Pakistan better. I really think you are greatly misunderstanding Pakistanis likes andd dislikes of India and the Pakistani thought process in general. I used to have similar thoughts about India, but now I have met so many (hundreds) Indians and worked with them that other than human rights in Kashmir, arms race and BJP, I really don`t have any single issue with India on which I wouldn`t be willing to accept India as the natural South Asian leader.

Re: Urstruly (122)

Many thanks for alluding to my modesty; indeed it is the one virtue, which I strive for while seeming to fall short frequently.

Now regarding your post, I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. First and foremost, the ancient Rajput king’s name was Prithviraj Chauhan. Nowhere and never is he referred to as ‘Prithvi’. That would be akin to going around calling a guy named Allahbaksh Gillani, ‘Allah’!
Hey Allah pass me that pencil!
Hey Allah would you like cream and sugar with that?
How weird is that??

Secondly, you are reading way too much into those names and falling into the same trap that the Pakistani establishment fell into. Dhanush, Trishul & Astra are literal words for specific weapons. When they were wielded in Hindu mythology by Hindu divine figures, obviously the Sanskrit words were used to describe them and not Mandarin!
You are right in pointing out the equivalency between Hatf & Unza and the Indian Missile names but by any reasonable analysis Ghauri, Ghaznavi, and Abdali come from way the hell in left field.

It is this kind of circuitous logic and this amazing fetish for conspiracy theories that crystallizes hatred. You make dangerous assumptions about the ‘Hindu psyche’ my friend. You refuse to see these names for what they are. These are names of weapons after all and they were named after ancient weapons. To jump through logical hoops while making very uncharitable assumptions about an entire mass of humanity in order to justify a laughable conspiracy theory betrays a bias of the greatest order on your part.

The point is that the Pakistani establishment itself claims that they chose the invader names in response to India choosing Prithvi. What I am pointing out is that based on the naming pattern of Indian Missiles, if you conclude that Prithvi must mean Prithviraj Chauhan you must be very close to loosing it. And that does not bode well for anyone.

dost mittar #163 .... I am taking over from where you left off :-)
On my opinion on ``Islamic``, my two-penny opoinion is that Pakistan should be renamed the Republic of Pakistan. The ``Islamic`` part should be taken out of the official name, separation of church and state should be part of the constitution, and sharia courts should be abolished. ALL THIS IS IS CONSISTENT with the clear message that I see in the Quran which is that religion is an individual matter, and that there can be no compulsion in religion (the Quran explicitly says as much, and in other places consistently instructs the Prophet this his mandate is limited to that of a messenger, and implementation of the message is not his responsibility). Since a state by definition has coercive powers, this prefixing of the word ``Islamic`` to the official name of Pakistan is quite clearly a violation of the fundamental instructions of the Quran.
By blaming religion for the deeds that are the result of a primitive culture, one takes responsibility away from the individual. I think that you, or any other reasonable person, will have no problem with this logic. The only people who would have a problem is the fanatic (whether it is someone like jay who hates islam, or some mullah who looks towards islam as being some kind of magic, complete with incantations and rituals) OR who finds this exploitation of islam to be useful to further his political ambitions (and we have a few of those in Pakistan too).
Incidentally, there is a front page article in the Washington Post today about the shortage of girls in India - to the tune of 70 million women! There is actaully a shortage of brides, and instead of males extracting dowries, it writes about how the reverse is now true in many cases. It writes about how this gap is the result of the preference for male offspring, and how girls are killed in infancy. Of course one wont hear a peep out of jay on this. The appalling thing I find is that there are people like jay around who see this misery of less fortunate people than them in South Asia as nothing more than a means to ventilate their hatreds. They compare per capita rates as if they were betting on horses, with never a concern on what it means to live on a per capita income of Rs. 500 or 600 per year. This reflects a crassness of the upper classes (and the new immigrants to western countries) that verges on the criminal, in my view.

Dear Ali A,
The Mullah`s of America keep saying that Christmas is a Pagan festival too ... but it doesn`t stop anyone from celebrating it! Get this ... (and I`m NOT making this up !)

The most popular pre-Christian Roman festival was the 7 day Saturnalia around the winter solstice. December 25th was celebrated as the birthday of the unconquered Sun. As the birthday of Mithra the Roman Sun God - the same as the Persian/Zoroastrian Mithra - the only God that Zoroaster said could be worshipped alongside the Ahura Mazda. Emperor Constantine, a Mithranian himself before his conversion, declared it to be the birthday of Christ to be celebrated across the Empire in 336 AD.

Mithra BTW is known as Mitra or Mitra-Varuna in the Vedas of the Indian branch of the Indo-Aryans.

The Christmas Tree evolved from the old German veneration of the evergreens as a symbol of endurance during winter. The English Yule or Yuletide is the festival of the North European God Jol - the Yule Log ditto.

The jolly old elf - Saint Nick himself was an Asian Abbot of the Monastery at Myra in Asia Minor (in present day Turkey) and probably never saw snow in his life, probably was as brown as you or me (sorry, sorry, Pakistanis are whiter than white - I forgot !). The Santa from the North Pole, wearing furs, riding a flying Reindeer Sleigh has more to do with the legends of Thor than Saint Nick himself.

Before St. Francis of Assisi first thought of it in the 1200`s there was no depiction of the Nativity - complete with donkey, manger, Shepard’s and three kings. In India though, there were certainly Janamshtami celebrations for the birth of Krishna with rocking cradles and midnight prayers.

Christmas was banned initially in the US by the Puritans, in Boston it was not a work holiday until 1870.

Ok I`m rambling but ... amazing huh ?

In India the big mid-winter holiday is on Jan 14th Makar Sankranti (or Lohri in Punjab/Delhi) in the North and Pongal/Sankranti in the South. Both celebrate the start of the northward journey of the Sun (Uttaryan) after a long winter. Not that different from the birthday of the unconquered Sun that the ancient Romans and Europeans celebrated - we all came Out Of Africa after all !

Maybe the little Hindu in you can celebrate the end of a long Winter this Jan 14th by lighting a bonfire and (how else ?) flying a kite of course !! ... and don`t let anyone stop you from celebrating Basant - the seasons don`t have a religion - they belong to all of us !!

Q - Does anyone in Pakistan celebrate/know about Lohri ?

dost mittar #154 I think one is free to identify ONE`s OWN SELF as one pleases - by ethnicity; by religion; by passport. However, one is NOT FREE to identify OTHER people the same way for any practical purposes. In fact there are laws against discrimination in ways that impact on the political or economic well-being of an individual in virtually every country in the world.
You obviously enjoy aspects of panjabi culture, and so do I. Doesnt mean I dont enjoy aspects of bangali culture for example - I love their tradition of household girls singing to entertain guests after dinner, e.g. But that does not give someone else a right to come along and label me a panjabi. Often such labels come accompanied with historical baggage (``you`` did this and ``you`` did that some centuries ago), and also takes away the individuals freedom to break away from the culture and to appreciate other cultures as well. After all, there is no such thing even as panjabi culture unless it is defined within narrow walls of time and space - panjabi culture of the 19th century lahore is poles apart from panjabi culture of today`s lahore, for example. And a panjabi born and bred in the US is quite different from a panjabi born and bred in rawalpindi, e.g. Even though both enjoy nur jahan.

Re:Romair 121
Umair, everyone has the right to embrace or reject their heritage whether it is arabic or suryavanshi rajput. From an Indian perspective, our concern is how to achieve a normal relationship with Pakistan. We feel that your inner struggles related to your heritage have collectively influenced Pakistani society to a great extent, to the point that it gets manifested as an irrational hatred of India. If tomorrow, all Pakistanis declare themselves to be arabs, speak arabic and watch arabic movies, but become good friends with India, everyone in India will heave a sigh of relief and totally accept it.
Today it is a peculiar situation where Pakistanis naturally act and behave like South Asians but from time to time, they feel guilty about it as if their pre-islamic past is dominating their islamic present. Then they try to compensate for it by being explicitly anti-hindu and anti-India. There is almost a fear that normalizing relations with India will somehow negate their islamic present. For e.g. Pakistan does not want to award Most Favored Nation status to India, even though it is mandated by the WTO and is a mere technicality. But the concept of even calling India a Most Favored Nation creates a weird reaction in Pakistan. It is not unusual to hear even moderate Pakistanis call for good relations with all countries except for India.
I know all the stuff about Kashmir and so forth, but I am more interested in the root causes that motivate Pakistani behavior. Maybe India should remind Pakistan that India has great relations with every other muslim country and Islam has been around for over a 1000 years in India. We have a muslim heritage that we are proud of, so what is bothering you guys?

temporal 110

``so a cosmic accident made us hindus, muslims, sikhs, christians, buddhists…another accident made us indian or pakistani…and another made us meet here at chowk in these times…``

The words of an ultimate fatalist, we have no choice, there is no point in criticising ones views, there is no hope for learning, it is all part of the fate, the cold blanket of the fatalist arguement that equalises all of the human beings.

What is oathetic is all this types arguements come up when the pakistanis are cornered, when the true outcome of their k for kafir education is exposed.

By this arguement temporal and tahmed are pleading to the world to equate omar sheikh to delai lama, and the recently executed kasi to m.k.gandhi.

This is an attempt to absolve onself of the responsibility for the jihadusts straeming from pakistan to far corners of the world to kill the non-innocent kafirs. What to do, a cosmic accident made them to follow one religion and to be vorn in a country, so with the victims. This is the ultimate apologist to the jihadists.

Dost mitter

``By and large, Pakistani chowkies are much more reasonable and moderate than the columnists and letters to the editors of Pakistan`s english language newspapers (you know that already being an expert on digging stuff from Pakistani media``.

The above quote is a mistake. The tahemed of the chowk are not critical of pakistan, they are just trying to be polite and sofisticated to show signs of modernity. They are not critical of pakistan in the sense that they are interested in finding the root cause out of a social concern. Romair blames the feudals, tahmed blemes the army and one guy said all of pakistanis are corrupt, this is waste of bandwidth.

Take the case of honor killings. tahmed says it is due to poverty and lack of education, the bins of the world write about it in tear jerkers, no body wants to admit that it is legal in pakistan, what is needed is changing the laws.

What the pakistanis disply on chowk is a form of bounded humanity, they believe in human rights like romair, the uncountables of pakistan is accepted by all, the ilks of tahmed.

They talk of humanity, decency on chowk, ask them about killing of non-innocent kafirs by muslims, you can hear..aha ..but...the...book...poverty...ohh..ohh

do not fall a victim to the charade.

The ilks of tahmed are drowning in an ocean of despair and hopelesness, as they bob up to gasp a breath of air do not hesitate to p//iss/ on them, it is a situation of their own making, they could have learned to swim, could have carried a life jacket but instead tied the book to their legs and are weighted down by it. show no mercy. pi//ss on them