My Little Bit of Hindu

I have to intercede here and defend those who say that the Quran is a complete book of all knowledge, including carnal and the occult kind. The trouble, however, is that the original manuscript (Quran al Haquiqi) of the Book is preserved in Heaven (hopefully on solid-state media, or at least on acid-free paper). What has passed down to us is suspect in nature as humans have had their filthy paws on it and have done a number just as they did with the earlier editions of the book. Instead of sending stone tablets (or metal castings) God just sent verbal messages to ancient prophets who were often cold, hungry and isolated on mountain tops or vast deserts. Some of them may even have been eating cactus.

The Prophet Mohammed was doing a great job, when he died prematurely (God’s perverse sense of humor) and the followers had to do they best they could since contingency plans for his death had not been finalized. Even so, all was going well until Khalifa Usman appointed that crafty villain, Mirwaan, as chairman of the commission that complied the final version of the Book. You see, Mirwaan had a goat and he forgot (some say deliberately) to feed it one day, so the goat got hungry and ate vital parts of the Quran since they were written on leaves. Then, Mirwaan inserted some useless parts that were irrelevant and nonsensical. That is how we have stuff in the present contaminated version of God’s Books that makes it look like a collection of tribal stories. And this is precisely why we have to wait for the Mahdhi. He will come and reveal all. This time God will not rely on mere verbal communication. Mahdhi will come properly equipped and will bring the TRUE BOOK on electronic media and will download it to the Library of Congress’ computers and there shall be no doubt. Until that time we should quit wasting time arguing about it and going round and round like a neurotic cat circling a pole desperately chasing its own tail.

Za-li-kal-kitabu-la-reh-ba-fee. Indeed there is absolutely no doubt in the ultimate truth of (the original manuscript of) THE BOOK.

...SR

i am a common Pakistani man who lives in Karachi,Pakistan, i hav observed all these messages about Paksitan, just to give little hint, what normal reasonably educated person think about India. What i believe we Pakistani ( i am talking about who have some level of education to think rationally) dont hate indian people, how can we do that, our relatives still live there, Indian movies are most popular in Pakistan, Indian TV plays like Tipu Sultan and Ramayan are always big hit....People in Paksitan still following hundreds of episodes of ``Amanat``(i am not sure if its still on`` that Saas Bahu drama, every one likes it........

Whenever PTV news starts some news about Kashmir( which infact they do daily) ppl change the channel, without thinking whether PTV is right or its just a propogenda, coz most ppl are tired of same Kashmir stuff. The same thing happens with INDIAN channels when they starts some program on Kashmir etc.........when there was a plane hijack which went to Kabul, no one believed on Z or Star TV, although ppl in Pakistan are fully aware of independence of these channels...but their arguments for putting blame on Pakistan were quite weak............

Incident like Babri Mosque, Gujrat riots, Kashmir killings....well of course , even Indian opossition parties blame BJP , so dont expect from Paksitani that they will like BJP or Mr Ball Thakuray. These are common hate factor among Paksitanis against India and i am sure not many Indians are proud of these.

some of our fellow INDIAN lke who posts message in CHOWk trying to prove Pakistan as complete failure state or the state whose future is doom, all the time they give examples of India`s development . Well if INDIA is developing that much then its a very good thing but it dosent mean that life in Pakistan is completely miserable. If you compare Paksitani big cities with Indian big cities, you will find same standard of living in both countires and coz Pakistanis are less in numbers the proportion of good living might be better then India.

I dont know many indians, i met few when i was in mideast for few months and with some when i was in New York. I have never seen any indian living in foreign countries have a desire or thought of moving back to India, those who are living in Mideast want to go to Canada, those who are in Canada want to go to USA and those who are already in USA have found their haven, which is quite surprising as msot of Pakistani living abroad want to settle back to the messy country like Pakistan.

we always believe that Indian education system is far better then Pakistan, just for example in Paksitan now numbers of Chartered Accountants reaching 4,000 and only Dehli has more then 15,000 CAs.

I dont like my Pakistani brothers keep repeating Gujrat and Babri mosque etc on these pages again and again,,,i am sure general INDIAN ppl are aware of these tragedies in their society,,,,same go with Indian people here, honor killing, women abuse etc it always a part of an uneducated society. Education rate in Pakistan is growing and we hope in future things will be better. I assure you despite all these problems Paksitanis are very hopeful about their future.

When i read messages ofrom Jay and Arjun_m , it seems all they have is hate against Paksitan and its people. May be its a result of some kind of frustration among indians against Paksitan or specially Pakistan army. Well nothing we can do about it, if Mr Vajpayee and Advani are also unable to do anything except giving useless threats.

Do you people believe that now if India will builtup its troops on boder again, any one will consider it seriously? i think now not even Indian forces.

#186 by tahmed32:

``I am a paper warrior on chowk, so please dont ask me to become a political activist.``
and,
``But, as I said, I am content to rant on chowk.``

This is precisly why you people failed pakistan (You just proved what Jay said about your generation of pakistanis).

an `Islamo-logical` answer to your post, hamidm miaN whould be -- YES –

all ‘ etio-logical’ ANSWERS -- to ALL our physicological, chemicological, biochemicological, biological, medicological, psychological, anthropological, paleontological, cosmological, entomological, pathological, physiological, astrophysicological -- PROBLEMS -- are indeed in the BOOK -- it is sooo logical!

a Muslim mit PhD and a master orthopedic surgeon should spend the rest of their lives searching prescription for reinventing the all those wheels from that -- inevitable BOOK.

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hamidm #178 I have on many occassions (the last one in my previous post on this board, I think, or the post before that) said that one can be a non-muslim and still be on the right side of God. It follows that one need never have read the Quran and still do fine by God.
The reason I refer to the Quran is to point out the sharp contrast between the teachings of the Quran (which explicitly support what I say above, e.g., as well as some other fundamental issues) and Islamic Ideology as understood by the mullah. This pulls the rug from under the feet of the mullah, and leaves him with no rug - I mean leg - to stand on (to confuse metaphors). If someone has not read the Quran or is not interested in it, that is fine - I would simply present any arguments I have without reference to the Quran. As I have done on many occassions on chowk.
I have always stressed using your common sense, not to confuse science with religious dogman and so forth. You seem to have some trouble comprehending all this (after over months and months and months of interaction on chowk!!), and that is why you seem to think that I consider the Quran to be a book of science, as well as of everything else.
Perhaps you are a slow learner, and should read what I have written above a few times until what I am saying sinks in. There will be a test on Eid day to make sure you finally got it.

InYourFace #176 I am a paper warrior on chowk, so please dont ask me to become a political activist. Incidentally, my late father became an activist in his old age (when he sensed the danger to pakistan society that mullahism presented). Among other things, he wrote a tract that challenged the 18th amendment that was being introduced by Nawaz Sharif to in effect give him complete powers and to convert Pakistan into a fully ``Islamic`` state (i.e. dictatorship, with the dictator getting his sanction from God) in the process. This article was used by other people to challenge this attempt by Nawaz Sharif in the Lahore High Court. The court proceedings delayed the passage of this amendment and NS was kicked out anyway in the meantime.
But, as I said, I am content to rant on chowk.

Re:romair #162
Umair, the conundrum facing India is that it is not able to develop the right strategy to establish a working relationship with Pakistan. If it tries to emphasize the similarities, there are immediate accusations that it is trying to establish hindu hegemony. If it focuses on the differences, then it is accused of being unfriendly and anti-muslim. If it simply hangs on to the status quo, then it is accused of not showing leadership. So, basically there are no openings left to start a process of normalization.
Indians have tried to analyze this situation by attributing it to the heritage struggles in Pakistan that we have been talking about. Basicaly the belief is that Pakistanis identify themsleves more with the middle-east, which causes them to shun India. I think this is a naive explanation since India actually has great relationships with all other muslim countries. The other possibility is that we are too similar which creates feelings of insecurity in Pakistan about getting overwhelmed by India. This is a complex phenomenon that we need to understand.
As far as Indian leadership is concerned, you need to remember that we have just stepped out of 1000 years of imperial rule. We do not know how to lead which creates misunderstandings. We are still quite insecure as a nation. Also we are a soft state and we cannot imagine ourselves to be aggressors. We do not understand it when Pakistan looks at us as aggressors. I agree with you that we Indians do not know enough about Pakistanis. It is probably because of the iron curtain between the two countries and the lopsided demographics in third countries.

Romair:

#162: You are very right when you say that there is a great lack of knowledge about Pakistan in India. But instead of the Indian press being at a fault, I think it is the Pakistani media that is to blame. The reason that you or any other Pakistani citizen is able to know so much about India, and from different points of views, is because India has a very vibrant and free media (news, entertainment, print, electronic, etc.), which is hardly what you can say about the Pakistani media. So now if as an Indian I want to learn more about Pakistan, about what the people of Pakistan are doing, what are their views on a particular topic, there is hardly any avenue for me, so I have no choice but to go along with the stereotypical impression. Well, there are a few sites maintained by a few newspapers, but what do I get there? Most of them sound so much govenrmentspeak that it puts you off instantaneously. In the early 90`s with the beginning of cable television in India there was a great opportunity for PTV to fill in this gap. There were not many channels, PTV had a prime satellite band, and most of all Pakistani television serials were very much appreciated in India. But what did they do? They started showing news almost every half hour on it, and the news that would keep pounding it on you again and again that you are the biggest evil on this planet, very much propogandish. Now why on earth would I want to watch such a channel? Today cable operators have pushed even Chinese and Russian channels ahead of PTV, and this is not on goverment instructions, but plain and simple demand and supply. Its not as if Indians are totally unreceptive of things Pakistani, Adnan Sami today feels more at home in India than in Pakistan, Junoon and Strings have had reasonably good success in India. Actually most of the Pakistani musicians who have ventured into India have done reasonably well, infact some of them even sell more albums in India than they manage to in Pakistan.

About talks, let us be honest. What is there really to talk about if both hold on to their lines? Mushy sahab very graciously keeps inviting India to talks, but doesn`t forget to remind it that there can be no compromise on the Kashmir position, and he is not willing to talk about any other topic unless Kashmir is settled. Do you really think this can work? Giving the MFN status can actually be a great beginning. I know it is more of a technicality and hardly makes much of a difference anyway, but the sentiment it conveys is tremendous and remember money makes the world go round. If businesses in both countries have significant interests in each country, believe me it will be that much tougher for them to engage in a conflict and perhaps not even be the correct thing to do for the political masters who are very much dependent on them for the funds, their oxygen.

#179: Gujarat elections are indeed a very important event, much more than they would have been in a normal course. But I definitely do not think they are as important as you make them out to be. There are many checks and balances in the Indian system. I will give you an example. Modi the Gujarat CM keeps on saying the riots were a result of a reaction to the Godhra incident. By that definition, there should have been an even more violent reaction after the attack on the Akshardham temple. But this time it was more in Modi`s interests that no violence was repeated. He had to fight an election and win it, and there is only that much violence the people can take. After all Gujaratis are businessmen first, Hindus, Muslims, Parsis afterwards. And about India splitting, Churchill thought so even before India was born, so don’t worry about that too much. The danger of India splitting was I think at its peak in the late 80`s and early 90`s. There was very active insurgency in Punjab and North East, problems with the LTTE in the south, the economic condition was not too great either to put it mildly, and then the Babri Masjid tragedy happened. India came out fairly well out of all that, and I am sure it has a great future as does I am sure Pakistan.

tahmed32 #170
You were the only one who gave me an acknowledgement about the IA hijackers on the other thread, I am grateful to you for that acknowlegement.

Urstruly(for example) also gratuitously vents his hatreds. So I mostly ignore both. But if either raises a valid point, even if I donot agree with it, IMO its a loss not to discuss it on merits.

#164 by tahmed32

``On my opinion on ``Islamic``, my two-penny opoinion is that Pakistan should be renamed the Republic of Pakistan. ``

It`s a wonderful idea. Congratulations! However, talk is cheap. Do something about it. Write a letter. Go on a hunger strike. Organize a protest at the UN .... you get the point. I am sure you don`t need my ``moral support`` how to go about it because you guys (pakistanis) are true democrats and ardent beleivers in ``self-determination``.

#166 by sadna
//...there has NEVER been an honest acknowledgement of the anti-Hindu element in education in Pakistan, though multiple references have been provided to bear this out on several occasions....//

Hear!! Hear!!

tahmed, a moderate and modern muslim, says:``separation of church and state should be part of the constitution, and sharia courts should be abolished. ALL THIS IS IS CONSISTENT with the clear message that I see in the Quran ``..........

..... is this wishful thinking or yet another gallant and desperate attempt at disingenuous obfuscation by a muslim wishing to establish his moderate and modern credentials ?.......... but then he falls into the same old trap of trying to justify everything,from separation of church and state to wife-beating, by looking in the book that claims to be perfect in every respect and which holds the answer to all the secrets of this life and the hereafter......... the other day, a friend of mine - a phd from mit, who used to be an okay guy before he gave up drinking and started attending weekly tafseer classes - was marvelling at the fact that they (he and his tafseer buddies) had discovered an ayah in the koran that implied that the core of the earth was molten metal ............ takbeer!........ wonder of wonders!...... i reminded him of the fact that years ago, under the influence of vodka and weed, we had discovered some pretty amazing laws of physics on our own (and had a lot of fun doing it)........

................ and the same thing applies to the virtues of separation of church and state and the benefits of proper dental hygiene ........ you don`t have to look it up in the book, because if you do you will end up brushing your teeth with a twig and still end up with cavities .......... and what about deodrant ? ........ the book does not mention deodrant, so arn`t we going to use it? ............

............ but it also does not matter what tahmed or urstruly see in the book ......... these folks, desperate to rationalize their blind and irrational faith, will tell you that it is all in the book - ``read it for yourself and then decide if any man could write even one verse to match the beauty of the koran``............. what can you say to that? ............. confused and dazed, modern muslims pore over dawood and pickthall trying to find a sign that will let allow them to use toilet paper and eat a big mac and take out a mortgage without being damned to hell ............ it is sad...........

December 12 is going to be watershed day in the history of South Asia. The fate of the Gujrat elections could decide the future of the Indian society, and thus the future of South Asia, as a whole.

The BJP has come in second everywhere else in India. This could be due to any one of two reasons: it was too extremist to win or it was not extremist enough to win. In Gujrat, the BJP has put all its cards in the later bucket, and will attempt to win on the shoulders of killings of so many Muslims.

If the BJP loses, then it will be a clear indication that Indians consider it too extremist. However, if it wins, then it will be an indication that it wasn`t extremist enough in the rest of the provinces. This would lead to the Advanis of the BJP gaining precedence over Vajpayee.

Not only would the above be disastrous for India (I personally think that if the BJP stays in power or in opposition in India for another fifteen to twenty years, it will split India into pieces), the fallout would be disastrous for Pakistan, also.

Pmishra

You forgot about your national anthem - the song of hate; which is directed to spew hate against your own minority.

happy

It is not a cop out. We just disagree with each other`s interpretation - learn to accomodate dissent.

Trash.