My Little Bit of Hindu

Pakistan was Not made in the Name of Islam.Infact most of the Ulemas and Muslim Clergy were against its creation.Pakistan was created to ameliorate the lot of Muslims living in a scular country. MA Jinnah many times denounced radicalism and he was always emphatic to say that Pakistan Will Not be a theoracritic country. Alas! Zia changed everything and Mullas were made powerful,though they never gained anything substantial in Elections.Think how we cn get Quid`s Pakistan Back,other ineveitable result will be what is obvious.We still have time.

THE question is term ``hindu`` itself. Far way back in the history of the subcontinent one of the famous names of the Rive Sindh was `Hind` and the locals living along the banks of the river were called ``Hindus``. when greek translated Hind river into Indus the people of subcontinent were called Hindus. This process also had names like Sindhu in it. So the history named the people living in this area as Hindus. It was never the name of a religion in the Greek times or afterwards. Perhaps it can help a bit with your confusion. Personally speaking being a Muslim has nothing to do with geographical identities. We know the Indus river for centuries now. Wonder what can be the next name of this river , and what can be the next name of us, living along the banks!!!!

Interesting thought from a Pakistani.

Europeans take pride in their non-chritian past, Egyptians take pride in non-Muslim past, why not the Pakistanis?

re:#240 by Romair
Romair, the chowk bluffmaster says the only thing standing between India and Pak from becoming friends is Kashmir. If that were true, why did i read an article the other day about Mushy boy trying to revive sikh militancy in Punjab (Indian)? As i have said before, Kashmir is only one of the several problems between the 2 countries. If Pak does not change its course, will meet the same fate as Yugoslavia.
Sridhar

Urstruly..how do you bring up a pic to show on your replies. Plz tell. I has some interesting pictures to show to the readers

Just Checking

Harpo #271

Ajay Devgan is a Sikh????

LoL @ Shankar

;)

hehehe

Ref AlephNull #277

[Finally, driving a Mercedes or living lavishly is a rather stupid criterion of achievement. Christians from South India woud tend to be frugal rather than the flashy in their lifestyles conforming to the common South Indian stereotype, whereas my sense is that Punjabis tned to spend or display their wealth somewhat more freely.]

Some years back (7-8 years ago), there was a concert by Jesudas, a major film musician from Kerala (and nominally at this point in his life, a Christian) in San Mateo. The only person who came in a Rolls Royce was someone that Androscoggin might deride. I was told that this particular gentleman was in the check cashing business -- a business that would pay a lot since the discount rate is very high because a lot of those cashing checks might be illegal aliens.

Yes, there are some South Indians who don`t mind flaunting their wealth and there are those with no high educational qualifications who make it big.

Thanks AlephNull for a very valuable post. I agree that the percentage of Sikhs and Christian in diaspora is more than 2.5-3 percent in India. I did not know the percentage of Christians in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Parsesh although I know many Andhra Christians from Hyderabad, as a tight knit religious community.
This is not the right board but I would be very much interested to know Christain conversions in India since independence. The story before independence is familiar to me to some extent. Is there some good book or souce with details about the role of Christians in independence movement?

SameerJB #275

{Some 25-30 years ago, Muslims from Karachi (Mohajirs) and Christian nurses from Kerala were well-representd group. Now they have moved up to middle class level and later brought their families/ relatives on family visa.}

{He also wildly exaggerated the BMW, Mercedes owning among Hindus and Christians. Absolute nonsense! The group that could afford these cars were medical doctors, a profession well represented by Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus alike but less Christians perhaps due to their localization in Kerala and Goa or some other reason.}

Sameer Sahab, a couple of comments re Christians in India. Their total numbers are about 25 million, around the same as Sikhs. Three Southern states - Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, account for about 1/3, 1/6, 1/10 respectively of the total number. There are also smaller but still significant numbers in Karnataka, Maharashtra, Bihar, Meghalaya, Orissa, Manipur, Goa, Madhya Pradesh (in approximate descending order).

It doesn`t make much sense to generalise about Christians in India (or about most religious communities, for that matter) since a person`s culture and outlook are most strongly influenced by region and language. Apart from nominal religion, a Christian from Kerala would have far more in common, in terms of language, diet, general worldview, with another Keralite irrespective of religion, than with a Christian from Bihar or Nagaland. Moreover, even within a given state one often finds multiple Christian communities with distinct histories etc and thus with different current economic and occupational profiles.

That said, my impression is that, overall, Christians in India are slightly overrepresented in the `professions` - medicine, engineering, academia, the sciences, journalism etc - whether in India or the US. One particular community with which I`m somewhat familiar - so-called `Syrian` Christians, of various denominations - has historically been very well-educated and is markedly overrepresented [you might want to check out (past?) office-bearers of the Indian physicians` organisations in the US, for instance]. However, about half the time their names are not an immediate giveaway of origins except to initiates. To a casual Pakistani observer and most North Indians they might well pass as Hindus.

Finally, driving a Mercedes or living lavishly is a rather stupid criterion of achievement. Christians from South India woud tend to be frugal rather than the flashy in their lifestyles conforming to the common South Indian stereotype, whereas my sense is that Punjabis tned to spend or display their wealth somewhat more freely.

None of this is to endorse 30-head`s worldview, of course

Harpreet #269

You`re most welcome .. I`m glad I could be of help with the earlier reference..

Harpreet,

arjun beat me to it:)
(shucks, arjun, please dont tell me you are a Bombayite!)

Anyways, if you go to Sion-Kohliwada, you`d probably see more turbans than in Delhi. The place is famous for its Punjabi fish & other heavenly Punjabi cusine...

Best of all, if you ever go to Bombay, dont miss a women`s hockey game at Khalsa college. Gotta say this, but most of those young kaurs are not only beautiful, but ...er..well ..er endowed, in the right places...they jiggle while they dribble to the goal....a naughty little secret only Bombay collegewallahs knew...

But that was 24+yrs ago, when I was young, handsome & single:) Maybe things have changed now. Man, those kaurs could dance in a disco with the same flair...put Travolta to shame...seems to me a bra doesnt restrain those bouncing boobs!!:)

Only one caveat, though...you better treat them like shareef ladies, even in a disco...ie. NO slow dances, even if she encourages it....:)
Hell hath NO fury like a pissed off sardar father or brother:)!!

Sigh.....woh zamaana guzar gaya...hum buddae hogaye!:)

The post by Androscoggin that started this discussion was stereotypical, bogus or described small segment of socisety.
Some 25-30 years ago, Muslims from Karachi (Mohajirs) and Christian nurses from Kerala were well-representd group. Now they have moved up to middle class level and later brought their families/ relatives on family visa. Next wave Gujratis did the same but they were more into business than seeking jobs. Now it is Bengalis and Panjabis. Just like Panjabi taxi drivers and gas station workers, plenty of Bengalis, both Hindus and Muslims are at the lower end work force. Androscoggin did not go through the construction industry. There are plenty of Chaterjees, Banerjees, Refugees, Ghosh laying bricks and roofing in New York. Another favorite of Bengalis is waiteressing in NY. Among Bengalis, Muslim and Hindus are at roughly same economic level.
He also wildly exaggerated the BMW, Mercedes owning among Hindus and Christians. Absolute nonsense! The group that could afford these cars were medical doctors, a profession well represented by Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus alike but less Christians perhaps due to their localization in Kerala and Goa or some other reason. Now medical profession has saturated due to doctors coming not just from subcontinent but from all over the world. Large number of desis families with housewives or comparatively much lower earning wives, and also higher saving rate do not favor these luxury cars.
Harpreet: I graduated from former Khalsa College, Rawalpindi now known as Government College, Rawalpindi. The richest American before the stock market crash was a Sikh from Dallas owning a business sofware company, ITWO. I do not know what is his worth now but for a while he was worth 9 billion dollars.

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Shankar: A Hindi writer wrote a short story on a Sikh beggar. I read it over 15 years ago so don`t remember the details but the main point was that the narrator/writer had never seen a Sikh beggar in his entire life until one day in November 1984 when he saw a proud sardar begging for his family`s life in a train.

Shankar

Tell us a little about the Sikh community in Bombay...I dont know anything about it, except that there is a very important Gurudwara in Maharashtra called Hazoor Sahib which is where the last Guru, Guru Gobind Singh passed away.

I thought the only Sikhs in Bombay were Sunny & Bobby Deol and Ajay Devgan

:)


-h-

As AlephNull says, its 12-head, so donot take it seriously. I personally have rarely seen Sikhs in the so-called menial jobs in the US. I personally have mostly seen recent arrival UP/Punjab wallahs at petrol pumps. Secondly, while the 60s and 70s wave of migrations from India were from the professional class, these days, there are others migrating too. For instance, those who run retail shops and restaurants mostly import people from their own localities, so a large proportion are Gujarati, some Telugu and etc.

Thirdly, have you seen how hard these people work? Esp people like newstand operators and groceries who work almost 24 hrs a day? Only 12-head can denigrate that sort of dedication and sacrifice. I have often wondered, if people from the other side of the world can come to the US and and shoulder the support of dependents back home with so much focus and personal sacrifice, why can`t the native poor of the US do so, and get out of poverty using the same opportunities? I don`t have an answer, but I salute all such hardworking immigrants.

And its not only Indian immigrants, there are a few Latin American countries whose whole national economies are hooked on the earnings of immigrant workers in the US. I salute them too :).

Harpreet,

I have to agree with you, as far as Sikhs are concerned. My personal view (& I dont think I`m prejudiced) is that amongst all Indians, Sikhs are one of the most industrious, hard working & upwardly mobile community.

Yes, there is no shame in doing any legal profession, no matter how menial it maybe. I lived in Queens, NY for about a year. I used to take the local taxi service, as I had no vehicle at that time. I ran across an ocassional Sikh cabbie , who told me they just migrated from India & started out washing cabs & doing basic maintenence for the cab companies. Today, those same Sikhs are either owning their own cabs or have started rival cab companies that are out competing the local yanks.

There are many very successful Sikhs in white collared professions & in business in the US. I`m sure its the same in the UK. Their children are actively encouraged to do BETTER than their parents. I greatly admire your family that had started out with nothing, as immigrants, & build themselves & their children up by sheer hard work & a need for upward mobility.

I dont think there are Sikhs on welfare in the US. If they are, it is surely for the shortest possible time, before they get on their feet. Thats is the whole point of welfare, IMO..to give the poor a chance before they start helping themselves & then become contributors to the economy. I wonder what percentage of Sikhs are on the dole in the UK? I`m betting its a very very small percentage. The Sikh community, itself, is very well known for its philanthropy.

I grew up in Bombay, a city which attracts Indians from every part of India. It has a sizable Sikh population. I have NEVER come across a Sikh beggar in Bombay!:) I think Sikhs are too proud to beg..& God bless them for that pride!

sac

I am so tempted to put down some lyrics that I think the Pakistani Eminem would rap, but, but...

:)

Dulla Bhatti

Yeah you are right

:)

Aleph-Null

Cheers mate I will check that post out right now. Great to hear from you. That reference you gave me about Gandhi`s statements of the Jewish question in the 1940`s really helped out a friend of mine

:)

-h-

Aleph-Null

Jeez, I seriously think that this guy posts from a psyhiatric Institute! How many personas can one man have?? he is probably having his medication right now...

-h-

Ajeet

Thats a nice story

:)

-h-

Ref Headshrinker #250

[...I actually met an Indian in the US who goes by the name of Ashit Dixit!! ]

You mean, you looked in the mirror?

Ajit, you said it very correctly. I am not sure when other ethnic communities from India started migrating to North America but first Indian group migrating in large numbers were Punjabis. You dig up history of early migration and you will find that muslims sikhs and hindus from the same village or area will come here and stay together. Most of them although ended up doing menial jobs were actually educated by the standards of that time. Many of Sikhs came to North america in early days for studies at Berkley and other places. Few reknowed Punjabi writers from 80 years ago came here for studies and few returned like Gurbakhash Singh PreetlaRhi if you heard about him... First US congressman in 60s from the sub-continent was Dalip Singh Saundh, a Sikh although clean shaven. What he did 40 years ago our recent Indian scholars have not been able to achieve yet.

Even today Sikhs are only about .2% of total US population.

We do have lot of areas of failure but overall we are doing pretty good. People who can`t take their mind of cabbies and truckers are jumping to streotyping. I don`t know why lot of sikhs drive cabs but I know why many of them chose trucking at the first chance..believe it or not many of them have made good fortune in trucking.....Higher education is good but if driving BMW is the aim there are other honest ways of doing so. here is good example: A friend of mine an Engineer from India migrated about 17 yrs ago and then his brothers migrated on petition about 7 yrs ago. One of his brothers was a college dropout from India and 40 yrs old when he came here. He insisted that trucking is probably best for him. So they bought him a truck. The guy is so successful at it that with in last 7 yrs he owns his own trucking company with about 2 dozen people working for him and just bought a new Mercedes(some how sikhs like mercedes more than BMW)..while his Engineer brother is driving 10 yrs old Mercedes.

Harpreet, Dullabhati,

When I moved to NewYork in 1978, I had this strange experience. On multiple occasions I was addressed by americans as Dr Singh. The first couple of times I asked them why they were calling me so, and was informed that everyone with turban they encountered was a doctor.

There is small town called ashboro in North Carolina, there are over twenty doctors who are all Sikhs.

The first migration that took place to us in seventies were all professional, whether Hindus, Sikhs or Christians. It is latter, when their non professional relatives started comming that you saw the cabbies and gas stations attendents. Even those have done well over period of time, but then they sponser their relatives and the circle starts again.

Harpreet #253

{Listen buster, I didnt like the sneering, snobbish tone in your voice. No job is menial if it is done for a reason, and it is a measure of these ``menial`` Sikhs and Pakistanis love for their children that they come abroad and work crappy hours in crappy jobs in order to educate them, especially if they have to shine the shoes of people like you during their working days, all because they commited the sin of being uneducated and wanted to give their kids a break in life, because the opportunities in their crappy motherlands wouldnt allow them.}

Harpreet, while I second the sentiments above, I surmise that you may find post #144 on this thread an source of enlightenment on Androscoggin. No point in getting steamed up each time someone sprouts another cut-n-pasting head!

Harpreet: Religions can not make one succeed but they certainly keep the doow wide open for faithfuls to slide down. Islam spreads red carpet for those believers who wish to fail miserably in exchange for rewards in afterlife. Islam is excellent in providing moral and dogmatic support to resisting change due to built-in mechanism of restraining from freethinking, freedom of expression and experimenting under blue skies because such tendencies lead to skepticism and rejection of dogma which are considered sins. Muslims do not like to commit sins whose rewards are not instant and enormous. The sins like sex, stealing, cheating, corruption, drinking etc are juicy and instant rewarding to pass easily but sins like learning and playing music, adopting western dress, dancing, pork eating etc are sins with little or no instant rewards.
Islam is a quiet religion in dar-ul-amaan except for camel noises, and noisy in dar-ul-harb whereas music is a man-made noise in dar-ul-amaan. The noise of qawwali singing in dar-ul-amaan is an adoption of Hindu traditions and contrary to quietly following of Islamic Sharia. Even having legal sex in dar-ul-amaan must not be accompanied with too much noise; the noisy sex in dar-ul-harab and particularly if sex comes as a logical conclusion of jihad through booty is altogether different matter.

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Amit #249: I agree with everything you have stated. I think the Pakistani govt. should open upto the new Kashmir govt. and I think it will, as soon as Vajpayee agrees to some kind of a talk.

In a convoluted type of way, maybe nuclear weapons will have a peaceful effect. I think both countries are now convinced they cannot militarily win. My opinion is that there will be no more all-out wars, now.

Shankar #250: Madhuri apparently lives in LA, from what I hear. She got married to an expat Indian doctor. The guy you talked to could have been her husband.

The worst names to have in the USA come from Pakistan. I would put, ``Fakhar`` as no. 1. And, ``Butt`` as no 2. I am sure there is a ``Fakhar Butt`` or ``Butt Fakhar`` from Pakistan walking around in America, cursing his parents.

You are a bit behind the times, if you are still looking for Madhuri movies. She is now on the wrong side of the hill. And Ashwariya Rai has basically swept away the Indian movie industry, and now has zero competition. Devdas is pretty good, and has both of them. I was never much of a Madhuri fan, though.

For my money, any movie made by Raj Kapoor is a classic - better than most Hollywood movies. His are head and shoulders above any other Indian movie. Here are my choices:

Any Raj Kapoor movie (Joker, Awara, Satyam Shavam, Ram teri Ganga Maili (I think he made that), etc.)

Among the new stuff, Kamla Hasan`s movies are different - they are either wierd or really good. Hey Ram is really good (I think you would like it).

Others in the 70s and 80s stuff, Amitabh Bachan`s serious work is really good - like Kabhi Kabhi and Silsila. I don`t like much of his non-serious/violent work.

Most Indian actors seem under-utilized, because most of the demand seems to be for stupid romantic movies. But every now and then, there are good serious movies. I would say the top current Indian actors/actresses are, in decreasing order of acting capabilities: Nana Patakar, Naseeruddin Shah, Kamla Hasan, Amitabh (in serious stuff), Ashwariya Rai, Tabu

Harpreet: I was having a nice day and thought to give him a break.:)
It is very easy to think about yourself only and be succesfull when you land in USA at age 18 with no responsibilites attached but to supporting only yourself , while sacrifice your time and money to bring in and settle extended families is lot of work. I will respect a high-schooled cab driver who petitioned, brought and helped settle 7 siblings of himself and his wife and hence about 20 cousins growing up right now who can have a shot at it more than 1 guy all he could do in his miserable life was spend his life in university campus and drive a BMW as an reward and run away from his past.

Sikhs are doing well percentage wise according to their low numbers but Sikh with a turban is very visible. Even in a airport where only 4 sikhs are cabbies amongst the 200 group they seem to be so many. There is usually 4/5 turbaned sikhs in my workplace and when they all show up in cafeteria at the same time it looks like we are in Ludhiana or something.

harpreet:

``I cannot wait for the Pakistani Eminem``

He`ll probably be called aliflammeem and the hit single would be ``Without lota`` :)

later
-sac

Andrescoggin

[[In contrast, when Pakistanis, and also many Indian Sikhs,
come to the U.S., the first thing they do is take some menial job at a
gas station or driving a cab...They pump gas, but are not mechanics. Therefore, they are almost never running the station, but only working there. They seem to be happy just to have a job and will do without everything else in life just to be able to keep it. They do not bother to go to school to improve their prospects for employment, even though many of them probably qualify for financial aid if they are legal residents (although many are not). They live in the most depressed areas of town, often in tenement buildings, and they are not driving Hondas and Toyotas and Lexus, they are driving old Dodges or Chryslers that make a lot of noise. From the meager money...... Why such a disparity?]]


- Andrescoggin, while I am in awe of the brilliance and genius of the Hindus and Christians you describe that go to the USA from India, I am a walking case study of the above. My family came from dirt and scraped and toiled in factories to give me a break. All of my generation of cousins have been educated and are doing very nicely thank you very much thanks to their struggle to feed and educated us. My Uncle is a taxi driver and is sending his three sons to niversity and they will do very well, too.

The worst thing of it all is that they had do deal with and serve pompous clever-clogs like you all the time.

If people live in rough parts of town its because life is tough as an immigrant. Comprendez?

Listen buster, I didnt like the sneering, snobbish tone in your voice. No job is menial if it is done for a reason, and it is a measure of these ``menial`` Sikhs and Pakistanis love for their children that they come abroad and work crappy hours in crappy jobs in order to educate them, especially if they have to shine the shoes of people like you during their working days, all because they commited the sin of being uneducated and wanted to give their kids a break in life, because the opportunities in their crappy motherlands wouldnt allow them. Now that is real LOVE, to while away the best years of your life to give your kids a break. And I also know lots of Christians and Hindu Punjabis I grew up with that were the same, so I dont know where you get all this ``Hindu Christian`` baloney from. Maybe Christian Punjabis are different from the ones you are referring to. They would want to kick your ass too.

Think of that next time a menial fills your car up with petrol.

Can I touch the hem of your garment now, thou shining light of wisdom?

-h-

dullabhatti,

I think you are too kind on Andrescoggin for his ignorant generalisations. I think he is a snob who would wretch at ever having to get his hands dirty.

-h-

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Re:Romair#240
Thanks for your kind words. My personal experience is that whenever Indians and Pakistanis meet each other face to face, the hostilities melt away. When they are in their own exclusive groups, the hostility against the other side comes up, largely because of a lack of understanding about the other side. I remember reading on chowk how sadna and ylh actually met face to face. Prior to that they had been bitter adversaries on chowk for years. Apparently they were both pleasantly surprised after meeting each other in person.
Without belaboring the Kashmir issue, which we have discussed many times in the past, I believe it is time for India and Pakistan to start burying the hatchet. The common man in India really wants to move on because his priorities are on economic development. If the situation with Pakistan becomes slightly better, the communal scenario will improve and the BJP will be voted out of power. The sabre rattling will reduce as well. Also the moves afoot in Kashmir with the recent elections are opening the doors for a dialogue to start. Pakistan would be well served if it modifies its current strategy and starts a thaw in the relationship.

Romair,

(though shankar`s neem-military strategist views sometimes scare me :)).

Hey! I heard that!!!!... you handsome bum!..how dare you...

Jeeze, of all the things about India you guys can love, its bloody Bollywood!
Isi baat par Pakistan hameesha maar kha jaata hai, yaar...

Btw, I`m still waiting for you to recommend a good Madhuri Dixit movie to me...

Speaking of which...I actually met an Indian in the US who goes by the name of Ashit Dixit!!

I asked him, ``how do you live in this country with a name like that?!..either you should go back to India or comit suicide!!``

Unfortunately, he didnt appreciate my sense of humor!

Maybe the guy is actually a Paki agent working for the ISI, to spy on us incredible Hindians....

Saminasha #244 I checked that out, and I see that Judge Judy, I mean Judge Bina, has rendered her decision, and both parties have been absolved of all wrong doing. No hangings, no life-term prison sentences (with no chance of parole), not even 60 hours of community service writing articles for chowk. I fear the learned judge may have permitted her good feelings on eid (even though it is tomorrow in most places) to cloud her judgement. But nevertheless, I think we can let the judgement stand without appealing it, and wish all Eid Mubarak.

sac

{{Pakistani immigrants in England are representatives of the lower and middle class values prevalent in their motherlands}}

- So are Sikhs. Most Sikhs in England are straight from the pind.

And alot of Hindu Punjabis and Gujaratis come from working class backgrounds too. The only Asians in Britain who came here from a prosperous, bourgeoisie background are the Africans, especially Ugandan refugees, who were booted out by Idi Amin. They were of all religions, and lots of them feature in the lists of ``Richest People in Britain`` that is published every year.


{{The black community has a disproportionate number of singers due to a tradition of gospel singing in churches. But now the eminems of this world are encroaching in that space also}}

I cannot wait for the Pakistani Eminem

:)

-h-

roohi #239
Thanks! Good to see you.

btw, about pre-Islamic festivals. There is a threat in the west of Pakistan too. If I`m not mistaken a festival called Navroz is celebrated in Iran and Afghanistan which is pre-Islamic(Zororastrian) in origin. Are Iranians are lesser Muslims than Pakistanis? Perhaps they are.

The Taliban tried to put an end to widespread Navroz observance in regions of Afghanistan and didnot succeed.

Also, in a documentary on lost tribes of Israel , to bear out the theory that some Pashtun tribes were Israeli in orgin an Afghan Jew was interviewed who talked of rituals a number of Muslim Afghans still follow on traditional Jewish Sabbath Saturday which they(the Muslims Afghans) have forgotten the meaning of. What will JI/JUI/JUP/OBL say? Alas these folks donot watch A&E on cable TV, or many more would be dead and their religion would be even more pure by now.

SameerJB # 232

Thanks and regards

Tahmed,

Boy are you in for a treat! :) Click on your community icon up on top of this page-you`ll see some choices-click on Unplugged...once on the umplugged board, click on Off the Wall Discussion...you`ll find reams of bakwaas...peruse or not, but click on Phoren Biwi and Umer vs Samina threads, where you`ll find your latest post cut and pasted. Accredited of course. I am ethical. Mostly.

Saminashah: Whenever you need my help, knock at my Punjabi chowk unplugged at Market Street. That is the place to find dost-mittar, Harpreet, Dullabhatti, Stuka and rest of handsome, pretty and intelligent Punjabis. Not a word about Kashmir, Kargil and Kafir! Most peaceful thread like Illegal Poetry at leafyglade.

#238 by Androscoggin :

When you describe it like that it does sound very depressing. But I think you have generalized to the extreme. It is true that Indian Hindus are more educated in USA on average than other Indians but the reason for that is that most of them came here single and for the purpose of studying. Most of the Sikhs have come here on family visas. Suppose you are an uneductaed or poorly educated married man at age 40 with 3 kids and you get a family visa to come to USA, what are your options here? People with 3 figure incomes are having trouble raising kids here and when you are already half way through your life and have the burden of raising family you can`t go the route a single guy of 20 will take. Remember most of the Indian Hindus who migrated to USA are coming from cities and already affluent or above average families...most Sikhs are coming directly from the village they were born..it is 90 miles in 5 seconds for them my brother. I think they still deserve credit to take this step while their counterparts(high school graduates, 36 yr old with 4 kids in a village) in UP, Tamilnadu etc won`t even dream about doing so. Particularly people who came here last 15-20 years came here due to political violence and disturbances in Punjab and most of them made the first priority to bring in as many kins as they can. Our average Doctorate from India here can`t think beyond his own BMW and will invite old parents for a 2 month vacation at the most.

Still percentage wise things are not that bad. There are plenty of Sikh doctors, engineers and small businessmen here. One of the richest Indians in USA is Sidhu from Sikh background. They own more land in California than any other ethnic group of their numbers.

I do agree that the concept of education that we have is you go to school when you are young and then you quit. Most our guys don`t even try to go to school again once they are out. I think the emphasis on education should continue all throughout life.

Saminasha #235 ``Unplugged``? ``Phoren Biwi``?? What corner of chowk are these hiding in? And who is this Pathan chap, and why is he spinning on plates of okra? Granted pathans are partial to okra, the only vegetable they think can be eaten by a man without his masculinity being suspect.

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I feel a C-h-i-l-L in on the board....almost if I just saw a GHOSTWRITER....

#227 Harpreet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indians and Pakistanis seem to handle their lives very differently, and
I would be interested in hearing both Indians and Pakistanis (and Indian
Sikhs)comment on this observation: When Indian Hindus and Christians
come to the U.S., usually because some relative has sponsored them, they
are either educated or get their education when they arrive. Their
extended families take care of their material and financial needs while
they go to college, and then graduate school, and then often on to
receive their doctorates. At some point along the way, they marry. With
the education they`re getting or have gotten, they are then qualified to
get a very well-paying job that supports their new family in a very NICE
standard of living. They drive new Toyotas and Hondas and RV`s, some
even Lexus and Mercedes. They buy homes in the most affluent areas. They
have huge tv screens with satellite dishes so they can receive all the
Indian stations. Their children grow up to have the best advantages,
never having a day of struggle. Their only responsibility is to do well
in school. In contrast, when Pakistanis, and also many Indian Sikhs,
come to the U.S., the first thing they do is take some menial job at a
gas station or driving a cab. Then they work at these jobs almost every
waking hour of every day, making slave wages, usually under the counter.
They pump gas, but are not mechanics. Therefore, they are almost never
running the station, but only working there. They seem to be happy just
to have a job and will do without everything else in life just to be
able to keep it. They do not bother to go to school to improve their
prospects for employment, even though many of them probably qualify for
financial aid if they are legal residents (although many are not). They
live in the most depressed areas of town, often in tenement buildings,
and they are not driving Hondas and Toyotas and Lexus, they are driving
old Dodges or Chryslers that make a lot of noise. From the meager money
they make at these menial jobs, they send a portion home to whoever
they`ve left behind in their home country -- wives, mothers, etc. They
do nothing but work. The owners and mechanics of the gas stations you
will see from Monday through Friday between 8:00 and 5:00. But no matter
what day or time you pass by a gas station, you will always see Mohammed
or Mohid. If they have any aspirations at all of doing better, the most
it will be is to scrimp and save whatever pennies there are left over
after sending money home, and one day, maybe in twenty years, have
enough to buy a gas station of their own. Meanwhile, their Indian (Hindu
and Christian) continent-mates are 28 years old, have their M.D.`s or
Ph.D`s and are driving around in BMW`s. Why such a disparity?

Sadna, Dost Saab- anyone else intrested in folk music in rural North India... check out http://www.beatofindia.com - I am SO glad someone is making an effort to preserve the grassroot music of india before it absolutely vanishes forever !! It great !!

Amit #183: First of all, I must say it is a pleasure to interact with you.

You and Shankar are two individuals who, at least in my opinion, look at India-Pakistan very objectively (though shankar`s neem-military strategist views sometimes scare me :)). You guys are not apologetic about India like many Pakistanis are about Pakistan (no one should ever be apologetic about their country(s)), yet you are factual - which is a quality I greatly admire.

I will insist again that Indians are misinformed about Pakistanis shunning India. Pakistanis do not do that. Infact, just the opposite. The only thing they shun about India are its attitudes on Kashmir and now the rise of the BJP. Other than that, they actually intake everything that comes in from India, wholeheartedly. Let me give you another example:

Every single military station that I was ever stationed in had an Indian video shop (just Indian videos - no Pakistani videos) either right outside the station or inside. One had a shop adjacent to our mess hall. If you ever get a chance to visit a Pakistani military base, go to the alert stations. This is where pilots sit through the night on alert duty just in case India attacks (standard procedures for all militaries - I am sure Indian pilots do the same). Since nothing ever happens for months and months, they get bored. So they are provided with TVs, VCRs etc. What movies do you think they watch - of course Indian movies.

The above should be as convincing an explanation, as anyone can give regarding the fact that Pakistanis are willing to accept anything good that comes from India. If Pakistani were to deliberately reject India, why in the world would there be such a huge market for Indian movies, songs, sattelite TV, magazines etc. I have asked this question to every Indian who says that Pakistanis shun India, yet no one can answer it. No one is forcing these Pakistanis to spend so much money on things Indian. I can take you to areas in Pakistan, where there are fifty to one hundred Indian video shops in one major market area. Infact, the Indian VCR movie industry nearly forced the Pakistani movie industry to bankruptcy.

All of the above is despite the fact the very legitimate threat Pakistan faces from a much much larger India. Just imagine how much more business there would be if this threat did not exist.

Also, you can go to any neutral country and see how well Pakistanis get along with Indians. I have Pakistani friends who have attended foreign military courses in England, USA etc. with Indians. Invariably, the Indian and Pakistani officers and families hang around with each other there, more than they hang around with anyone else - despite the fact that they will then go back to fight each other (I would have to say that Pakistani and Indian military men show far more chivalry between each other, than civilians - specially politicians. However after reading the comments on Chowk, one would think that military men are chomping at the bit to attack each other. I never found that to be the case - probably because the soldiers know they will the ones who die, if there is a war) .

I have now worked with Indians and Pakistanis for too long, and consider myself somewhat of an expert in this area. One can only understand the other, after working/living with the other daily. And I am 500% convinced that the only problem between India and Pakistan is Kashmir. It is not water resources, it is not religion, it is not fishing licenses, it is not Advani or Musharraf or Bhutto or Sonia, and it is not any deep-rooted hatred. Just Kashmir. And, as neutral and as unbiased as I try to be, I cannot see how that can be solved until India at least gives up on atut-ang, and at least lets international sources solve the conflict - who knows they may solve it in India`s favor.

P.S. Indians also need to understand that Pakistan cannot destroy India militarily - it is just too small. I have seen the planning and strategy of the Pakistan military from the inside. All our training, nearly all our equipment were defensive. Pakistan does not have a single bomber aircraft. 90% of its military aircraft cannot even reach 2/3rd of India - most of them are purely designed to protect its own cities against attack - others can at most reach some bridges, towns on the border. It only has one or two strike corps in its Army. It does not have any offensive naval ships. No aircraft carriers. No attack aircraft in its Navy. Only radar aircraft. The only offensive equipment it has a nuclear missiles and maybe a few submarines and the tanks in its few strike corps. Everything else is purely defensive.

Take an inventory of all the offensive weaponry India has that can only be used against Pakistan. It is buying billions and billions of dollars worth of it. None of it can be used against China. It can only be used against Pakistan. Advani just stated, that he is looking for a fourth war. BJP just killed two thousand Muslims just because of their religion. India will not even play cricket with Pakistan. Based on this, wouldn`t you agree that Pakistan has a legitimate threat and concern, and would be justified in shunning India completely - yet despite such a situation, all things Indian (other than India`s Kashmir actions) do booming business in Pakistan.

So Indians need to give Pakistanis at least this much credit.

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pmishra2 #205
``Maybe there is a hidden clause in the Pakistani constitution that says hindus can only live in a secular state! ``

How about a whole article :).

``Togadia types (the last was finally arrested someplace?) ``

Only for defying a ban on a procession. He is out again and making vitriolic speeches. I wonder what the heck a `cultural` organisation like VHP is doing campaigning for political candidates, I would think its a violation of Indian tax laws.

About Gujarat elections, IMO, the scene is not so simple as defeating BJP. Firstly, can the BJP be defeated, despite its sins of misgovernance aside from the violence.

Secondly look at the alternative, the Congress. Is their record of communal harmony in Gujarat any better? In the current election, the Cong. is fielding many ex-RSS/BJP candidates. This could be taken as either
1. Good tactics, set a thief to catch a thief and divide the BJP `votebank`. 2. Hypocrisy, do in Rome as Romans do, ie, soft Hindutva

Only people in Gujarat can tell which it is and one can`t tell whether such a policy will get Cong more votes or offend its long time supporters.

And does this tactic bode well for the future actions of a possibly victorious Cong? The Congress refused a pre-poll alliance with other parties against the BJP, donot know if that means its own votes(if it has any) will be divided to BJP`s benefit. How can there be comfort when a party led by Mulayam Yadav seems the best alternative among a bunch of doubletalking doubledealing crooks?

And whatever is said during the election speeches, all depends on what is actually done on the ground to restore confidence and good relations after the election. IMO, we cannot take comfort until the right things are done. And just what are the chances of that, whatever the result of the election? The Indian public and media need to remain engaged with Gujarat long after the election, whichever way it goes.

Tahmed,

Well, if you participated on unplugged, I would appreciate it....very few voices of sanity back there, and Pathan seems to be referring to some nai Islamic cultural practices of spinning on plates of Banarsi okra on ``Phoren Biwi`` thread....

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Saminasha #231 you write ``..I`m going to use some of your posts...``
O quelle joie, ô quel honneur!
translation: O what joy, o what honor!
:-)

Humsab: I read the article you mentioned and wanted to respond but could not figure out who and where to post response. I have read the similar and more detailed article by him before, I think in a magazine named Sahar a year or so ago. I will post it in couple of days at Ras Siddiqui`s Hussain Haqqani at UC Berkley. Basically I agree in general to his thesis.

tahmed: The code of conduct for Maryland is good, short, simple and understandable. Your opinion about reading/ teaching Quran is right step but undoing of 2 centuries old traditions is not so simple.

Harpreet: You are right. The varieties of arts and culture in the world is contradictory to conservative/ orthodox belief in ummah harmony in unity of all aspects of life. The love for music comes from love of culture. It is impossible for diaspora going totally against the trends back home in Punjab. The inspiration for taking interest in Paunjabi music suffers setback every day in the life of P-Punjab. Only rebellious minds would take interest in an atmosphere where a single MPA out of 300 MPAs of Punjab Assembly wanted to take oath in Punjabi language and was denied by presiding authority.

sadna: I would define MMA, Islamists, Jihadis, Thackrey as short sellers than self-hating. A short seller benefits from decline or loss. The political expediency of these folks requires a losing situation all the way for everybody for them to win. Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Hinduism, Islam, Kashmiries, Gujratis and so on have to keep on losing for MMA and Thackrey of subcontinent to win. Fortunately the admiration for Hinduism and other Asian philosophies among the liberal intellectuals of the west has not been effected by Thackerey types and is not likely to because of the high education/ understanding level of pro-Hinduism western liberals. The stupids on either side are mutually complementing. Kargil helped BJP in elections and so will continuing bloodshed in Kashmir. A much beneficial blinking for Pakistan and by Pakistan on Kashmir will pull the plug on BJP in India too although they might lose without it. But one more stupid Kargil (stupid for Pakistan, beneficial for Pakistan miltary establishment) and BJP will definitely benefit more than opposition.

ally #206
Too bad Lohri has vanished from West Punjab ! It`s kind of fun - even for non-Punj Delhiites like me ... D`you know this Lohri song ?

Sunder mundriya..ho
Tera kaun vichara..ho
Dulla Bhatti walla..ho
Dulle ne ti viahiyi..ho
Saer Shakar payi..ho
Kudi de boje payee..ho
Shallu kaun samete..ho
Chacha galee dese..ho
Chache choori kutee..ho
Zamindaran lutee..ho
Zamindara sidaye..ho
Gin-gin pole layee..ho
Ik pola reh gaya..ho
Sipahi farh ke lei gaya..ho
Aakho mundao taana..
Mukai da dana..
Aana lei ke jana..

re #227:

Harpreet:

Pakistani immigrants in England are representatives of the lower and middle class values prevalent in their motherlands. Singing, dancing and other artisitic endeavours are generally frowned upon as indecent(or `kanjar` as the resident obfuscator urstruly will explain in great detail).

I wouldn`t hasten to ascribe the lack of artists amongst Muslims to be a major issue though. In due course of time things will change. The black community has a disproportionate number of singers due to a tradition of gospel singing in churches. But now the eminems of this world are encroaching in that space also......

later
-sac

Harpreet,

Your point on chosen identities and how they are reflected in local businesses and grassroots arts is an excellent one. I just wanted to add that in the specific political ideologies of identity, a great number of Pakistanis will chose to focus on a pan Muslim one.

What happens to second generation Pakistanis as they grow older? My contention is one that the writer of this piece makes, that we start looking for legacies and connections that feel authentic to us and that are authentic in accomodating the diversities of that legacy our parents knew.

It seems that too many younger Pakistanis are wilfully ignorant of the great traditions of tolerance and interdependence that existed when we were ``Indians``. You may allow young Muslims an agressive identification post 9/11, but I am less enamoured of the older folk who continue to fuel this hate.

Sadna,
Great points!

Tahmed and Sameer,
I`m going to use some of your posts in the unplugged debate between ``Umer and Saminasha``....hope thats okay...

INDIANS KNOWLEDGE OF PAKISTAN,

For the first time all of the indians, even in far corners know about pakistan. It is the cremation/ burial of some one killed in kashmir with full military honours. For the pakistanis all through the world, the same constututes the fruits of jihad, another uncountable of pakistan has reached heaven.

All that the ilks of tahmed and romair has to point out is the popularuty of hindi movies. That is simply entertainement.

What really counts is the posters all through pakistan calling for jihad, the collection at every mosque where the pakistanis learn with their pockets about what they want to do to the hindus. The millions who throng to the LET meeting at madrike, the young who fann out from the 200000 madrassas are the one whose idea about the hindus that matter.

It is pathetic to see the fools of india accepting the sharade aboutindian movies in pakistan as a sign of goodwill and understanding.

ally #206
Good to see you here. I too have heard/met people who remember the Partition days and suffer the same trauma from the other side. IMO, those of that generation who live abroad seem to have found very little palliative for their memories in their `double` estrangement while those who live in India/Pakistan have been `compensated` to some extent with lives rebuilt in a new homeland.

The other day, there was a short interview with writer Bhism Sahani on DD here about his story `Amritsar aa gaya hai` (?). He said he wrote about what he experienced on a train journey he made from his home town Rawalpindi on some personal business and the train passed through towns which were in the grip of Partition violence. One of Mr Sahni`s comments was ( and I`m sorry for paraphrasing his remarks poorly) that the killings and the hatred were not the only reality, there was also the reality of many ordinary people who, in that surcharged polarised atmosphere, put up their own resistance to it, helping their neighbours, friends, business partners in any way they could, including saving lives. Mr Sahni said, its because of that other reality that we(Hindus and Muslims) are still around.

I hope Muslims in Pakistan understand this soon and find ways to vocalise/operationalise it at the national consensus level or we are done for(IMO).

re: romair

{I have however, yet to see or met any Indian who can commment correctly about Pakistan in detail.}

...why are so many pakistanis obsessed with india and indians?...

Ref sameerJB #218

[A friend would ask to remove Islamic from Islamic republic....]

That makes Jay a friend of Pakistan.

You know that at heart he wants Pakistan to change but sees no sign of that happening. I think that is why he calls for the iraq-isation of Pakistan.

SameerJB #218
`what BJP is doing to Hinduism`
Thats why I consider people like Thackeray etc and even Advani to be `self-hating` Hindus.

arjun_m # 197
``born again south asians``
I donot happen to agree with you here. And better to remember, if you wish that people were different from what you think they are, you have to also yield space for them to be different.

Ally

In my experience, the British- Pakistani youth of today, who like me, are born and raised in England, are much more focussed on their identity as Muslims, than on their kinship with British Hindus and Sikhs of their own generation. I can understand why it is: they want to turn to a religious identity in the face of what they see as media misrepresentation after September 11th and so on. I dont think it is a bad thing if they feel they want to associate themselves more with Arabs or Somalians, if that is what they feel comfortable with.

Another thing I have noticed is how few Pakistanis participate artistically in Punjabi cultural events…Go to a university campus and while the Sikh students will be playing the dhol and listening to bhangra music, most of the Pakistanis focus their energy on political issues like Palestine. I cannot think of a single decent Pakistani musician that has come out of England. Where are the Pakistani Nitin Sawnhey’s and Talvin Singhs and dancers and people that promote Punjabi/South Asian culture in the UK?

I went to concert by a friend recently who does traditional Indian dancing in a cultural centre in Kensington, and there were literally hundreds of girls aged about ten who were learning Kathak and they teach tabla, sitar and so on…And she wants to open up studio’s in Leicester, Birmingham etc…that is her dream, to make a living out of her dancing because the demand from Indian parents to teach their children these skills is so strong…I don’t think Pakistanis in the UK promote these kinds of things. For example, most large Gurudwara’s in England will have classes where people can learn to play musical instruments. If you want to know why there are so many Sikh musicians from England that’s the reason why…not just bhangra bands but people like Talvin Singh and weirdo’s like that bloke from Cornershop, all learned their music at the local Gurudwara.

That’s just the way I see it.

Any thoughts?

-h-

sameerJB #218 You raise an interesting point: who should read the Quran. I agree with you that it would simply confuse a child to try and read it with understanding (and to read it without understanding, as is done in practice in Pakistan, is worse). The basic actionable message is simple, and no more than a basic code of conduct similar to what public school systems in the US (for example). Here is one for the state of Maryland:
1. Personal integrity and honesty rooted in respect for the truth, intellectual curiosity, and love of learning.
2. A sense of duty to self, family, school, and community.
3. Self-esteem rooted in the recognition of one`s potential.
4. Respect for the rights of all persons regardless of their race,religion, sex, age, physical condition, or mental state.
5. A recognition of the right of others to hold and expressdiffering views, combined with the capacity to makediscriminating judgements among competing opinions.
6. A sense of justice, rectitude, fair play and a commitment tothem.
7. A disposition of understanding, sympathy, concern and compassion for others.
8. A sense of discipline and pride in one`s work: respect for theachievements of others.
9. Respect for one`s property and property of others, includingpublic property.
10. Courage to express one`s convictions.
This may sound apple pie and motherhood, but we need some of that in Pakistan in light of the perverse values (greed, status consciousness) that are prevalent among the sophisticated westernized types like benazir as well as neanderthals like maulvi fazloo. If such values were stressed as much in public schools in Pakistan, and in homes, that would be equivalent to conveying the message of the Quran.
Who then should read the Quran with understanding: I think, first and foremost it should be those who swear by it, treat it as a magical book of incantations, and then live their lives in ways that violate the fundamental message of the Quran - which is no different from the above. So: while I find the Quran to be a fascinating book, and certainly a useful tool to expose the hollow ideology of islamic extremists, I dont think it is necessary to ever read it in order to live ones life as a good human being should.

dulla bhatti #217 you write
``bedford gaddi(truck) howey.
assi nabbay chhaddi howey
naal baithee naddi(kuRi) howey.
phair nazaara aunda ni,
jadoN gear driver paunda ni.``
zindabad, dulla bhatti sahb. :-)

SameerJB # 218

``What denigrating Muslims BJP is doing is minor compared to what it is doing to Hinduism. They have taken a leaf right out of Islamic civilization and culture. Very stupid of BJP. Muslims do not require BJP or USA or anybody else to denigrate or degenerate them, god willing Muslims are good at doing it to themselves. Now BJP is doing same to Hinduism. ``

Absolutely Right ! Hope modi and his supporters are flushed down the drain!

Janab,
You promised to give some comments on some article on my request. Still waiting.

re: Field Marshal`s rantings
Our chowk`s field marshal is in full form. His post # 162 is interesting. He seems to place all blame on India.
1. ``I have however, yet to see or met any Indian who can commment correctly about Pakistan in detail.``
Indians in general are not as much interested in Pak as it is the other way round. This is simply due to the fact that India has many subcultures, each with its own problems and each of these subcultures is dealing with its own problems in its own unique way and has little time for Pak. How many Maharashtrians, Tamilians or Keralites would be interested in Pak? The only time Pak makes news is when its cricket team visits India or when its politicians/dictators go ballistic. South Indians have of late learnt that Pakistan also means terrorism when bomb blasts happened in a far away place in Coimbatore or in a chruch in Kerala. May be it was Indian propaganda but when something like this happens a lot of times and a pattern emerges, one wonders what Pak is upto?
As i was saying, most Indians are not interested in Pak.
Let us face it. Why would a large country like India be interested in Pak when it is self-contained in every respect? India is self-obsessed and much like US, does not see much beyond itself. It has its own movie culture (each subculture having its own version of bollywood), art form, dance form, philosophy so on and so forth. Pak has little to offer (and i do not mean it in a derogatory sense). I realise this everytime i visit Madras. You enter a new world, much different from Delhi, where the daily problem is not if India is going to be nuked but what Amma (Jayalalitha`s other name) is upto. Recently, i am told, Amma stretched a few joints and ligaments when she was bending (God knows for what!) and it made a big splash in the papers.
OTOH, i agree with someone else in chowk when he said Pak is doing a bad job of educating Indians about itself. Its media and news has to reach out to Indians if they are to know anything about Pak.

2. Much is made out of the fact that Indian music, video etc are popular in Pak. I do not know who to blame here. If, despite a lot of hatred against India (ingrained by propoganda, religious beliefs etc) in Pak, Indian music is popular, kudos to Indian music. It does not mean Pakis are being open minded but only that they have few choices in the matter. Give them good Paksitani music and they can be easily weaned from Indian music. Same is true for movies etc.

3. ``India is a threat to Pakistan, as a country. While Pakistan, ``is not`` a threat to India as a country, even if it wanted to be (other than nukes)``
This argument made sense before world saw the ugly face of terrorism. Now-a-days, even Mexico can be a threat to US if it trains terrorists and pushes them across border to create havoc. Terrorism is an invisible enemy. Pakistan has become na-Pak by its association with terrorists and terrorist-cause. Pak is a definite threat to India, not merely thr` terrorists or n-weapons but by the concentration of power in one person (or a coterie) who has the finger on all vital decision making. Can a nation bestow all its trust on one person? What if that person is a rabid-islamist brought up on the diet that India is evil and should be destroyed forthwith?

India is not a threat to its neighbours but i agree its large size is intimidating. Bangladesh can be a security threat to India if former keeps pushing illegal immigrants who flood into India, scatter and disappear into its large landscape merging with the populace. Bangladesh keeps denying any illegal immigration is ever happening. Now, there is a fence being erected to stop this. Look at it this way. Bangladesh is a puny little country with about 120 million population. By 2020, it would cross 200 million? Where will all this population go? Simple. As always, they will be heading for the border and slip into India. What are the implications for India, an already poor country who has now to deal with this additional burden? This is just a case of a small country causing or having the potential to cause serious security and economic challenges to India.
India is a democracy. It cannot and will not go to war against another country unless its own security and existence is threatened. Even then, war has to be ratified by parliament. Indian PM (unlike US president) does not have supreme power to declare war on another nation. Let us keep that in mind.

Sridhar

Ali, I was falling of my chair laughing and reading a Brit like yourself cutting kanak in the month of April and beejing kapaah..man I have cousins in England those bums whenever visited Punjab made fun of us. We used to scare them with our paindoo stories..scare them of snakes in barseem(chhaTaala) and kamaad. These guys were such pussycats...you sound different. I am glad someone on chowk can have empathy for how it feels to do kannak di vaaDi in 115 degrees. My favourite used to be feeding the kannak thrasher at night time. So first year when I was still 13/14 yrs old or so this slave was given the job to feed (rugg dainay) in the thrasher machine. I really loved it with the noise of thrasher and rythmic tik tik of paTaa going over the pulleys and suckign sound of kannak going in and tooRi coming out... I sang all the dirty songs I had heard from my friends...I was singing very loud thinking no one is listening...next morning when I came to know that my chachas and father and others could actually hear 200 yards away my loud voice above the usual khaRaak of the thrasher machine...I wished zameen would eat me up...they made fun of my dirty shaiyree for days. they still remind me my favourite in those days...

bedford gaddi(truck) howey.
assi nabbay chhaddi howey
naal baithee naddi(kuRi) howey.
phair nazaara aunda ni , jadoN gear driver paunda ni.;)

your father in a way reminds me of may in-laws..both were born in Lyallpur and young kids when they moved to Jullandhar in 47. They still talk about that place and what happened durign that time one can see a mixture of sorrow, repentence, anger and pure nostalgia when they talk about Lyallpur.

pmishra #205: What denigrating Muslims BJP is doing is minor compared to what it is doing to Hinduism. They have taken a leaf right out of Islamic civilization and culture. Very stupid of BJP. Muslims do not require BJP or USA or anybody else to denigrate or degenerate them, god willing Muslims are good at doing it to themselves. Now BJP is doing same to Hinduism.
All the chronic complainers about the stress others have applied to Muslims/ Islam should be thankful to others for interfering here and there. Leave it to Muslims and they will finish themselves off. The spiritual entertainment industry of Islam is worse than adult entertainment industry of the west. Here they can try to stop kids from watching too much television but Muslims love to substitute this decadent entertainment with god-fearing entertainment of five times praying, quranic lessons, fasting, friday sermons etc ending up consuming same amount of time as US kids spends in front of TV.
Before partition, they used to blame it on British conspiracy for Muslim kids doing poorly compared to Hindu kids in Schools in Panjab. It was really a divine conspiracy to keep Muslims kids occupy large amount of time each day on spiritual entertainment. the result is that even a C grade high school pass Muslim knows more about his Islam than a Hindu Ph.D. about his religion.
Even reform minded like tahmed would not suggest Muslims to only read quran after having a minimum bacheolar degree and same goes about 5 times a day praying. I think reading Quran with meaning and praying more than once a week should have been banned for people less than 20 years of age. What is the point of making a kid read Quran when its meaning is so complicated that only few intelligent like tahmed can understand. unfortunately SR and I were not so intelligent to understand and felt better to leave it.
so pmishra, it is Hindus duty to save Hinduism from going Islamic way at the hands of BJP and RSS. Do not worry about denigrating Muslims. Muslims are doing everything possibly they can to be self sufficient in degenerating ourselves.
I can`t believe world is worried about Islamic bomb and missiles. Let more than two Muslim countires have it and see them innihilating each other. Best way to deal with Muslims as enmy is to arm them and close the border.
A friend would ask to remove Islamic from Islamic republic and an enemy should make every effort to stay with Islamic republic.

Ref ally #206

[My parents (dad at least) are of the partition generation. The partition was all about Hindu-Muslim hatred, pure and simple. Dad experienced and saw as a child, first hand a lot of stuff that we could not even nightmare of, and wouldn`t want to experience. His hatred which has slowly mellowed of Hindus and Sikhs and of India (post partition) is understandable. But what he hated, wasn`t the individual Hindus/Sikhs or India, but the fact that he had to uproot as a child and leave everything he knew, the fact he had to experience that sh*t, and the fact that, those events changed his life forever, for a long time very miserably. Hindu, Sikhs and India, were the focus of his discontent with his and his family`s kismet, and the loss of everything they had. However, time has slowly began to heal his wounds, and B4U isn`t so bad, although as a child in school he was indoctrinated against Hindu`s and India and that for sure has stayed in him to an extent. He never denied any of his culture or rasms, but along with my big Boa Ji (phoophee) and the rest of his siblings they clung on to every little bit of it, as it was a reminder of Jullundher, and their village and their life, that they never want to forget, and in the process never let us forget, especially now with the loss of his brother and in his old/middle age he remembers his childhood days more and more.]

The Partitions was NOT about Hindu-Muslim hatred. It was a powerplay, pure and simple, by those who thought they would never enjoy power in a united India. They thought that the demographics are stacked against them. So they decided to ask for their own country.

The Punjab Unionist Party stood against Partition and the Muslim League and won big. Even in the very last election before the British relinquished power, the Muslim League, despite its sizeable gains due to Direct Action Day, could not form a government in Punjab. The premier of the Punjab province correctly predicted that the banias will have their throats cut -- after all, that would be the easiest way to settle a debt!

It does not matter if Hindus started the killings in Punjab, Sikhs did or the Muslims did. The real culprits are those who sowed the idea that people are different -- Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan, Suhrawardy, etc. They walked off scot-free, to enjoy the perks of power, while the common man paid the price.

The tragedy of the mass killings of the Partition managed to hide the many kindnesses that Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs, at great potential danger to themselves, did to people of other religions. They were not as many in number as the murders and mayhem that were committed so not everyone would have experienced the kinder, gentler face of ``the enemy``.

I am glad for your dad that he is able to put behind the bitterness of the Partition. As you pointed out, it is the robbing of his childhood and his innocence that that Partition entailed which is the greater tragedy.

re: Gujarat`s elections
Chowk`s Field Marshal says:
``December 12 is going to be watershed day in the history of South Asia. The fate of the Gujrat elections could decide the future of the Indian society, and thus the future of South Asia, as a whole.``
For once i agree with him. But Romair does not say why this election is so important. It is important because it will tell BjP if hindutva can be used as a vote catching gimmick successfully in future elections. If its A$$ gets kicked (which is not unlikely; one thing i have learnt about these elections in India is that they are most unpredictable), it will have to change its strategy. Modi and its class will be ousted. Are the Gujaratis ready to kick BJP`s ass? I do not know. Only time will tell.

Sridhar

Re: #200 by sameerJB [``...SR: You have been reading `Who Wrote Quran` by the same guy who wrote, `Why I An Not a Muslim` - Ibn Warraq...``]

Very reassuring to learn that someone else shares those ideas and has actually published books. Never read anything by this author. Wasn`t even aware of the titles. Did read the old Bertrand Russell classic, Why I am not a Christain, some twenty five years ago. Back then I had the zeal and curiosity (not to mention stupidity) and therefore spent thousands of hours (that sould have been spent worshipping the goddess of beauty -- if I only knew) of my youthful life studying and contemplating theosophy and ideology. Today, I have neither the inclination nor the energy to ponder over phantom issues of religion or nationalism. Let the eager and the enlightened worry about them. Leave me and my fleeting hedonistic pleasures alone. (Ah, if youth only knew; and if age only could...!)

...SR

Adnan_Rafiq #210

I understand what you are trying to say, but my observations or what i wrote about are not from staying in Karachi for a month. And i am not asking `dumb Pakistanis` to change their way, that of course is up to them if they are open to hearing what their fellow country men have to say both those in and out of Pakistan. Often those that live outside can give a different perspective.

I have spent a considerable amount of time in Pakistan, and during my high school years was `sent back` on one way tickets for months at a time (longest stretch 6 months) for `behavioural correction`. I lived like everyone else in the pind, and just like everyone else was dying to leave asap, i worked on the land with my Taya`s and chahcha`s until it was `deemed` my `behavioural correction` was a `success` until, of course, the next time!

This time i went back after a few years due to work and study, instead of every year when i used to spend the entire 4 month university holiday. We `pindoos` go back a lot more often, spend a longer amount of time and live just the way everyone else does. Six months in KHI would`ve been easy compared to months of kanak cutting, kapah beejing and gunna chooping, often in the hot Punjabi sun.

So before labelling people as `phorren` pehley poochleya kar, marabey jaan noo assi nee dardey, valait jummey see, mushkil chadhan da rah ditta Rubb ney (lal passpoort), es galloN na shukrey nee Rubb to.

Dullabhatti #207

We use the same words, although some people especially the shehri`s often use Urdu words, Khalla, KhalloN instead of maasi maaser. Ik din Rubb ney kitta, tey mey Jullundher zaroor jana, `doojey par` dekhan vastey.

Ref the_happy_one #190

[You have one of the most prominent Indian Muslims singing that song at the top of his friggin voice! Why would he do it if it was spewing hatred against him? Oh wait a minute… I know! A.R. Rahman is not a ‘real’ Muslim! ]

AR Rahman seems to be saying that he HAS actually converted to Islam. So that makes a real Muslim.

On the other hand, he is an INDIAN Muslim, which automatically makes him not a real Muslim.

As King Faroukh of Egypt is reported to have said, Pakistanis think that Islam was invented on Aug 14, 1947.

InYourFace #209 You ask ``How does it help you (pakistan) to get rid of ``Islamic`` from Islamic Republic of Pakistan, if I recognize problems in India.`` You would not ask this question if you kept in mind the context in which I said this. Taking things out of context is a great way to have an argument, and a very poor way to have a discussion. I dont want to have a dumb India-Pakistan argument, so thanks for your views and have a nice day.