A Work In Progress
Feroz R Khan January 6, 2003
#40 Posted by arjun_m on January 8, 2003 10:52:35 pm
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#39 Posted by Ashok on January 8, 2003 5:59:34 pm
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#38 Posted by Ashok on January 8, 2003 5:59:34 pm
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#37 Posted by faisaluno on January 8, 2003 5:59:34 pm
fools. or maybe they are just muslims and thus must pay a price for belonging to a cult that produces insane, hate-filled dajjals like jinnah, malcom x, musharrif and obl. too bad cause i hear that hindu passports, like yehudi passports, come with preapproved american visas. not that hindus need it cause they have iit , infy, pota and ttfs (toilets that flush). why else would 20 m bangladeshis be living hindustan?
maybe this is just a big lie. maybe the story was planted by isi to provide ammunition to beleaguered pakis on chowk. still, what resourcefulness. if only other muslim institutions could be so effective.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/comp/articleshow?artid=33745500
3 Indian immigrants found dead near Ukraine border
AFP[ WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 08, 2003 11:02:52 AM ]
BRATISLAVA: Three Indian illegal immigrants were found dead at Vysna Rybnica, near the Slovak-Ukrainian border, Slovak interior ministry spokeswoman Monika Kuhajdova has said.
The three, aged between 25 and 30, were found Monday by Soak police, dead from exhaustion after their long journey that wound up with a trek through the mountains in icy temperatures.
Seven other Indians were found alive near the border and interned in a camp in eastern Slovakia pending a decision on their fate, Kuhajdova said on Tuesday.
#36 Posted by bbabu on January 8, 2003 4:47:57 pm
AmericanExpress #27
The same non-Islamic law allows for the waiver of diplomatic immunity if the country of the diplomat (Pakistan) allows for it.
Even if USA does not get to prosecute Mr Akram will Pakistan prosecute him.
Or is Islamic law reserved for women, minorities only ?
#35 Posted by arjun_m on January 8, 2003 3:56:54 pm
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#34 Posted by rsridhar on January 8, 2003 1:22:04 pm
re:#6 by hrrehman
Yes. Your Qaid-e-Azam is a genius. The Pakistan he carved out left muslims in India in an insignificant minority, at the mercy of hindus (something which he claimed he was trying to prevent). Muslims of the newly independent nation proved so united that within 25 years of its existence, the eastern wing seperated out putting an end to the 2 nation theory. The western wing today is a theocracy, ruled by a military dictator constantly at war with its bigger neighbour. I hardly think Jinnah ever envisioned such a nation for muslims of India.
Sridhar
Yes. Your Qaid-e-Azam is a genius. The Pakistan he carved out left muslims in India in an insignificant minority, at the mercy of hindus (something which he claimed he was trying to prevent). Muslims of the newly independent nation proved so united that within 25 years of its existence, the eastern wing seperated out putting an end to the 2 nation theory. The western wing today is a theocracy, ruled by a military dictator constantly at war with its bigger neighbour. I hardly think Jinnah ever envisioned such a nation for muslims of India.
Sridhar
#33 Posted by rsridhar on January 8, 2003 12:57:21 pm
re: this article
I think, as the Americans would say, Chowk has, with this article, hit rock bottom.
Sridhar
I think, as the Americans would say, Chowk has, with this article, hit rock bottom.
Sridhar
#32 Posted by einsteinwallah on January 8, 2003 10:49:13 am
Found following at: http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html. I have cut-and-pasted beginning which introduces auhtor and few paragraphs which I wanted highlight. Deleted parts are shown with ``***``:
Partition
The Messiah and The Promised Land
Margaret Bourke-White was a correspondent and photographer for LIFE magazine during the WW II years. In September 1947, White went to Pakistan. She met Jinnah and wrote about what she found and heard in her book Halfway to Freedom: A Report on the New India,Simon and Schuster, New York, 1949. The following are the excerpts:
***
What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?
``America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America,`` was Jinnah`s reply. ``Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed`` -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- ``the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves.`` He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. ``Russia,`` confided Mr. Jinnah, ``is not so very far away.``
This had a familiar ring. In Jinnah`s mind this brave new nation had no other claim on American friendship than this - that across a wild tumble of roadless mountain ranges lay the land of the BoIsheviks. I wondered whether the Quaid-i-Azam considered his new state only as an armored buffer between opposing major powers. He was stressing America`s military interest in other parts of the world. ``America is now awakened,`` he said with a satisfied smile. Since the United States was now bolstering up Greece and Turkey, she should be much more interested in pouring money and arms into Pakistan. ``If Russia walks in here,`` he concluded, ``the whole world is menaced.``
In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam`s thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. ``Surely America will build up our army,`` they would say to me. ``Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in.`` But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. ``No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan.``
This hope of tapping the U. S. Treasury was voiced so persistently that one wondered whether the purpose was to bolster the world against Bolshevism or to bolster Pakistan`s own uncertain position as a new political entity. Actually, I think, it was more nearly related to the even more significant bankruptcy of ideas in the new Muslim state -- a nation drawing its spurious warmth from the embers of an antique religious fanaticism, fanned into a new blaze.
Jinnah`s most frequently used technique in the struggle for his new nation had been the playing of opponent against opponent. Evidently this technique was now to be extended into foreign policy. ....
No one would have been more astonished than Jinnah if he could have foreseen thirty or forty years earlier that anyone would ever speak of him as a ``savior of Islam.`` In those days any talk of religion brought a cynical smile. He condemned those who talked in terms of religious rivalries, and in the stirring period when the crusade for freedom began sweeping the country he was hailed as ``the embodied symbol of Hindu-Muslim unity.`` The gifted Congresswoman, Mrs. Naidu, one of Jinnah`s closest friends, wrote poems extolling his role as the great unifier in the fight for independence. ``Perchance it is written in the book of the future,`` ran one of her tributes, ``that he, in some terrible crisis of our national struggle, will pass into immortality`` as the hero of ``the Indian liberation.``
In the ``terrible crisis,`` Mahomed Ali Jinnah was to pass into immortality, not as the ambassador of unity, but as the deliberate apostle of discord. What caused this spectacular renunciation of the concept of a united India, to which he had dedicated the greater part of his life? No one knows exactly. The immediate occasion for the break, in the mid-thirties, was his opposition to Gandhi`s civil disobedience program. Nehru says that Jinnah ``disliked the crowds of ill-dressed people who filled the Congress`` and was not at home with the new spirit rising among the common people under Gandhi`s magnetic leadership. Others say it was against his legal conscience to accept Gandhi`s program. One thing is certain: the break with Gandhi, Nehru, and the other Congress leaders was not caused by any Hindu-Muslim issue.
In any case, Jinnah revived the moribund Muslim League in 1936 after it had dragged through an anemic thirty years` existence, and took to the religious soapbox. He began dinning into the ears of millions of Muslims the claim that they were downtrodden solely because of Hindu domination. During the years directly preceding this move on his part, an unprecedented degree of unity had developed between Muslims and Hindus in their struggle for independence from the British Raj. The British feared this unity, and used their divide-and-rule tactics to disrupt it. Certain highly placed Indians also feared unity, dreading a popular movement which would threaten their special position. Then another decisive factor arose. Although Hindus had always been ahead of Muslims in the industrial sphere, the great Muslim feudal landlords now had aspirations toward industry. From these wealthy Muslims, who resented the well-established Hindu competition, Jinnah drew his powerful supporters. One wonders whether Jinnah was fighting to free downtrodden Muslims from domination or merely to gain an earmarked area, free from competition, for this small and wealthy clan.
The trend of events in Pakistan would support the theory that Jinnah carried the banner of the Muslim landed aristocracy, rather than that of the Muslim masses he claimed to champion. There was no hint of personal material gain in this. Jinnah was known to be personally incorruptible, a virtue which gave him a great strength with both poor and rich. The drive for personal wealth played no part in his politics. It was a drive for power. ......
Less than three months after Pakistan became a nation, Jinnah`s Olympian assurance had strangely withered. His altered condition was not made public. ``The Quaid-i-Azam has a bad cold`` was the answer given to inquiries.
***
_______________________________________________________
In olden days there used to be magazines which sometimes carried serialized detective stories in which an episode would end with a terrible scream of a lady (or a gunshot) disturbing night. And then abruptly the episode would end there, remaining story ``to be continued`` in next instalment. That way author kept interest alive and subscriptions coming in. So...
So if you want to read what happened to after Quaid-i-Azam had bad cold, read it at the link provided or buy the book. ;)
Partition
The Messiah and The Promised Land
Margaret Bourke-White was a correspondent and photographer for LIFE magazine during the WW II years. In September 1947, White went to Pakistan. She met Jinnah and wrote about what she found and heard in her book Halfway to Freedom: A Report on the New India,Simon and Schuster, New York, 1949. The following are the excerpts:
***
What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?
``America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America,`` was Jinnah`s reply. ``Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed`` -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- ``the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves.`` He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. ``Russia,`` confided Mr. Jinnah, ``is not so very far away.``
This had a familiar ring. In Jinnah`s mind this brave new nation had no other claim on American friendship than this - that across a wild tumble of roadless mountain ranges lay the land of the BoIsheviks. I wondered whether the Quaid-i-Azam considered his new state only as an armored buffer between opposing major powers. He was stressing America`s military interest in other parts of the world. ``America is now awakened,`` he said with a satisfied smile. Since the United States was now bolstering up Greece and Turkey, she should be much more interested in pouring money and arms into Pakistan. ``If Russia walks in here,`` he concluded, ``the whole world is menaced.``
In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam`s thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. ``Surely America will build up our army,`` they would say to me. ``Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in.`` But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. ``No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan.``
This hope of tapping the U. S. Treasury was voiced so persistently that one wondered whether the purpose was to bolster the world against Bolshevism or to bolster Pakistan`s own uncertain position as a new political entity. Actually, I think, it was more nearly related to the even more significant bankruptcy of ideas in the new Muslim state -- a nation drawing its spurious warmth from the embers of an antique religious fanaticism, fanned into a new blaze.
Jinnah`s most frequently used technique in the struggle for his new nation had been the playing of opponent against opponent. Evidently this technique was now to be extended into foreign policy. ....
No one would have been more astonished than Jinnah if he could have foreseen thirty or forty years earlier that anyone would ever speak of him as a ``savior of Islam.`` In those days any talk of religion brought a cynical smile. He condemned those who talked in terms of religious rivalries, and in the stirring period when the crusade for freedom began sweeping the country he was hailed as ``the embodied symbol of Hindu-Muslim unity.`` The gifted Congresswoman, Mrs. Naidu, one of Jinnah`s closest friends, wrote poems extolling his role as the great unifier in the fight for independence. ``Perchance it is written in the book of the future,`` ran one of her tributes, ``that he, in some terrible crisis of our national struggle, will pass into immortality`` as the hero of ``the Indian liberation.``
In the ``terrible crisis,`` Mahomed Ali Jinnah was to pass into immortality, not as the ambassador of unity, but as the deliberate apostle of discord. What caused this spectacular renunciation of the concept of a united India, to which he had dedicated the greater part of his life? No one knows exactly. The immediate occasion for the break, in the mid-thirties, was his opposition to Gandhi`s civil disobedience program. Nehru says that Jinnah ``disliked the crowds of ill-dressed people who filled the Congress`` and was not at home with the new spirit rising among the common people under Gandhi`s magnetic leadership. Others say it was against his legal conscience to accept Gandhi`s program. One thing is certain: the break with Gandhi, Nehru, and the other Congress leaders was not caused by any Hindu-Muslim issue.
In any case, Jinnah revived the moribund Muslim League in 1936 after it had dragged through an anemic thirty years` existence, and took to the religious soapbox. He began dinning into the ears of millions of Muslims the claim that they were downtrodden solely because of Hindu domination. During the years directly preceding this move on his part, an unprecedented degree of unity had developed between Muslims and Hindus in their struggle for independence from the British Raj. The British feared this unity, and used their divide-and-rule tactics to disrupt it. Certain highly placed Indians also feared unity, dreading a popular movement which would threaten their special position. Then another decisive factor arose. Although Hindus had always been ahead of Muslims in the industrial sphere, the great Muslim feudal landlords now had aspirations toward industry. From these wealthy Muslims, who resented the well-established Hindu competition, Jinnah drew his powerful supporters. One wonders whether Jinnah was fighting to free downtrodden Muslims from domination or merely to gain an earmarked area, free from competition, for this small and wealthy clan.
The trend of events in Pakistan would support the theory that Jinnah carried the banner of the Muslim landed aristocracy, rather than that of the Muslim masses he claimed to champion. There was no hint of personal material gain in this. Jinnah was known to be personally incorruptible, a virtue which gave him a great strength with both poor and rich. The drive for personal wealth played no part in his politics. It was a drive for power. ......
Less than three months after Pakistan became a nation, Jinnah`s Olympian assurance had strangely withered. His altered condition was not made public. ``The Quaid-i-Azam has a bad cold`` was the answer given to inquiries.
***
_______________________________________________________
In olden days there used to be magazines which sometimes carried serialized detective stories in which an episode would end with a terrible scream of a lady (or a gunshot) disturbing night. And then abruptly the episode would end there, remaining story ``to be continued`` in next instalment. That way author kept interest alive and subscriptions coming in. So...
So if you want to read what happened to after Quaid-i-Azam had bad cold, read it at the link provided or buy the book. ;)
#31 Posted by einsteinwallah on January 8, 2003 9:52:17 am
[ #26 by slodhi on Janauary 8, 2003 7:57am PT
...
I have heard about Ayesha Jalal, but was unable to find her titles at Amazon, and B&N.
...]
That is surprising because I was able to find ``The Sole Spokesman`` on Amazon site. May be you mistyped the serach words. I sometimes search the British and German sister sites of Amazon for highly academic books. But mostly I had to do that only for Math and Finance books. Most other books I always managed to find in main Amazon site. Also there is a site for O/P books: www.alibris.com. HTH
...
I have heard about Ayesha Jalal, but was unable to find her titles at Amazon, and B&N.
...]
That is surprising because I was able to find ``The Sole Spokesman`` on Amazon site. May be you mistyped the serach words. I sometimes search the British and German sister sites of Amazon for highly academic books. But mostly I had to do that only for Math and Finance books. Most other books I always managed to find in main Amazon site. Also there is a site for O/P books: www.alibris.com. HTH
#30 Posted by tahmed32 on January 8, 2003 9:52:17 am
Thank you for this History of Pakistan, replete with previously unknown information. I would never have guessed all this happened if I did not read your article.
So it was Jinnah who founded Pakistan!! And Pakistan is located close to Central Asia. My, my. I always thought Pakistan was a small island in the Carribean, and that jinnah was merely a panjabi word for person. And this treasure trove of information you provide about the succession of tribal rulers of this place you call Pakistan - previously unheard of names like Ayub Khan, and Bhutto, and Bibi, and Nawaz Sharif, and lately Musharaff, and the light you shed on their shenanigans - will no doubt force anthropologists and historians to re-write history books. The light you shed on the geostrategic location of Pakistan will undoubtedly become required reading in military staff colleges the world over.
So it was Jinnah who founded Pakistan!! And Pakistan is located close to Central Asia. My, my. I always thought Pakistan was a small island in the Carribean, and that jinnah was merely a panjabi word for person. And this treasure trove of information you provide about the succession of tribal rulers of this place you call Pakistan - previously unheard of names like Ayub Khan, and Bhutto, and Bibi, and Nawaz Sharif, and lately Musharaff, and the light you shed on their shenanigans - will no doubt force anthropologists and historians to re-write history books. The light you shed on the geostrategic location of Pakistan will undoubtedly become required reading in military staff colleges the world over.
#26 Posted by slodhi on January 8, 2003 7:57:48 am
Peace,
#25 by drsubrotoroy on Janauary 8, 2003 0:35am PT
I have heard about Ayesha Jalal, but was unable to find her titles at Amazon, and B&N. I have heard that she and some new authors have re-written the history of our region in the light of these new official documents of British Raj, released by the Crown, recently. Have read some excrepts of Ayesha`s work referenced in another book. Also would love see your work and am open to any more recomendations if you may make about the new authors on both sides of the divide. But please make sure I hate the apologists, or people with a narrow vision who do not see things with the historic perspective and think of our region in isolation.
Peace...
#25 by drsubrotoroy on Janauary 8, 2003 0:35am PT
I have heard about Ayesha Jalal, but was unable to find her titles at Amazon, and B&N. I have heard that she and some new authors have re-written the history of our region in the light of these new official documents of British Raj, released by the Crown, recently. Have read some excrepts of Ayesha`s work referenced in another book. Also would love see your work and am open to any more recomendations if you may make about the new authors on both sides of the divide. But please make sure I hate the apologists, or people with a narrow vision who do not see things with the historic perspective and think of our region in isolation.
Peace...
#25 Posted by Ally on January 8, 2003 12:35:45 am
i am convinced it must be in the blood of us Pakistanis to be `fasad di jurh` but it didn`t occur to me that we were also geographically `fasad di jurh`
chal i suppose it adds a bit of colour on things...
baqi tussi pagal Indian Pakistani lardey rahiyo...
chal i suppose it adds a bit of colour on things...
baqi tussi pagal Indian Pakistani lardey rahiyo...
#24 Posted by drsubrotoroy on January 8, 2003 12:35:45 am
The author may wish to consult the work of Ayesha Jalal titled ``The Sole Spokesman`` (CUP 1985), which may well be definitive, as well as the chapter by FPR Robinson in ``Foundations of Pakistan`s Political Economy: Towards an Agenda for the 1990s``, edited by W. E. James and myself (Hawaii MS 1989, Sage 1993, Karachi OUP 1993). If the author happens to know of these or similar works already, I would be interested in hsi response to them.
Subroto Roy, PhD (Cantab.)
Professor, VGSOM, IIT Kharagpur,
India 721302.
Subroto Roy, PhD (Cantab.)
Professor, VGSOM, IIT Kharagpur,
India 721302.
#23 Posted by takshak on January 8, 2003 12:35:44 am
JINNAH was a war criminal.. Direct action day itself led to death of more than 20000 people.. Equal number died in the attacks by Kabailis in Kashmir...
People worshipping Jinnah do seem wanna make their kids follow his lessons and message: Rape and kill as many non-muslims as possible..
Thats Jinnah in nutshell..
Cant believe the women worshipping Jinnah, support the message of violence by Jinnah..
People worshipping Jinnah do seem wanna make their kids follow his lessons and message: Rape and kill as many non-muslims as possible..
Thats Jinnah in nutshell..
Cant believe the women worshipping Jinnah, support the message of violence by Jinnah..
#22 Posted by bbabu on January 7, 2003 8:49:39 pm
Considering Mr Akram has argued for recognition of the Taleban in the past I wonder if Islamic law applies to Pakistani UN envoy.
----
U.S. Asks Pakistan to Lift U.N. Envoy`s Immunity After a Violent Quarrel
By JULIA PRESTON
UNITED NATIONS, Jan. 7 — The State Department has asked Pakistan to withdraw the diplomatic immunity of its envoy here, Munir Akram, after New York City prosecutors sought to bring misdemeanor assault charges against him as a result of a quarrel with a woman, United States and New York City officials said today.
Marjorie Tiven, the city commissioner in charge of United Nations issues, wrote to the United States Mission here on Dec. 26 requesting that the envoy`s immunity be removed, according to Edward Skyler, the mayor`s spokesman. Mr. Skyler said the Manhattan district attorney`s office had advised city officials that it was prepared to prosecute if Mr. Akram`s immunity was lifted. Pakistan has not yet informed the United States of any decision.
The legal dispute comes at a bad time for the ambassador. On Jan. 1, Pakistan took a seat on the 15-nation Security Council for a two-year term, just when the Council will be weighing whether to authorize war on Iraq.
On Dec. 10 at 1:36 a.m., the New York City police were summoned by an emergency 911 call to a residence at 47 East 92nd Street in Manhattan, police officials said.
Marijana Mihic, 35, told the 911 operator that a man whom she identified as her husband had smashed her head into a wall and that her arm hurt, according to the police dispatcher`s notes of the conversation. She said the man had hit her before.
``Female caller states husband has diplomatic immunity,`` the dispatcher noted.
When police officers arrived, Ms. Mihic said that Mr. Akram was her ``boyfriend`` and that after an argument with him she had tried to leave.
``He prevented her from leaving, he grabbed her and she fell,`` said Lt. Brian Burke, a police spokesman. The police officers at the scene reported that Ms. Mihic had a bruise on her head, he said.
Mr. Akram, who is 57, was at the residence when the police arrived and identified himself as an ambassador.
``There was nothing really that the officers could do,`` Lt. Burke said. United Nations envoys enjoy immunity from local criminal prosecution.
A spokesman for the Pakistani Mission said today that Mr. Akram and his friend had reconciled.
``The ambassador and his friend both strongly believe that there is no basis for any legal action in this matter,`` said Mansoor Suhail, the spokesman. ``And they have both communicated that belief to the concerned authorities.``
Once the police officers arrived at the residence, Ms. Mihic seemed to become less alarmed, and she refused medical attention when an ambulance from the city`s Emergency Medical Service went to the scene, city officials said.
The district attorney`s office advised Ms. Tiven that Mr. Akram could be prosecuted for a misdemeanor charge of third degree assault, a law enforcement official said. She wrote to Patrick F. Kennedy, a senior diplomat at the United States mission here, and the State Department lodged its request with Pakistan on Dec. 28.
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