If Army acts like a Political Party Why not a Forward Bloc in it?

I wonder why she is a house wife she needed to be a Militaryman or a politician and that candid expresion for a first attempt is too firy. She should have been a man becuse her thoughts do not speak of house wife yet having the knowledge of gashti PM(touring PM).

Excellent writing

re:#36 by faisaluno
This post shows that you and some scums like you will never learn. You do not realise that ISI activities in Bangladesh are ultimately harmful to Pak. You and your ilk may feel happy that ISI is doing its bit to harm India but the fact that these things are coming to light, the fact that evidence is being piled up is something that should alarm every Paki. Obviously, looking at this board and several other boards, few Pakis seem to be alarmed. They have not said they are sorry so many terrorists being apprehended around the world (Kenya, Bali, India etc) are Pakis.This news does not seem to bother them.
India will continue its diplomatic offensive trying to convince US. US is happy with the present dictator of Pak. Fear the day when US walks out of when its job is finished (that might never happen though and Pak may become another US colony). Focus may shift. US seems to have convinced itself that Iraq is of strategic interest and it might do to Iraq what it did to Pak, this time with an invasion (the greatest service that the Ultimate Whore did for Pak, and for which Pakistanis should be eternally greatful to him, was to offer his own A$$ to save his nation`s when US threatened him post 9/11). It may like to capture that nation and sit on its oil wealth. After all Pak has nothing much to offer other than smelly Mushy A$$.
Meanwhile, Putin is in India forging an alliance very similar to the one during 1971. This time, India will take a leap jump when it gets an aircraft carrier and a nuclear sub on lease. This, along with the latest generation of Su-aircrafts will shift military balance for ever in India`s favor. Pak has only one deterrence viz nuclear. Do we know if US does not already have a way of keeping a tab on it but is not revealing it? Of course we do. If US says tomorrow it has Pak`s nuclear program under close scrutiny, it would substantially alter the nature of nuclear deterrence, Pak`s last hope. US is really being a good ally of Pak in keeping this a close secret and being ambiguous about it.

Sridhar

Sridhar

#43 by Pankaj
``Democracy can not imposed from above``
Exactly what happened in Pak. Mushy, the Rat calls it ``democratic dictatorship``. Some word!
Sridhar

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re arjun_m #42:

Buried in your posted link is this gem..........

``Insider tip: Pakistani people portray better English skills than exist in India.``

Happy hate mongering.

later
-sac

jay #44 you write ``There are times when I wish I could be a simpleton``
That would be an evolutionary step forward for you.

arjun_m: Jamali and Muslims in general do not realize that by making Friday off weekly, more sins will be committed on Friday - more listening to music, more watching Kafir movies, more drinking, more dating, more pre-marital sex, more masturbation, more cheating in Juma bazars, more crimes (most crimes take place on holidays),...........all of that to make more people offer Friday prayers and to force most conceptions on Fridays.

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Welcome to NWFP under MMA. All three orders by the new Chief Minister Akram Durrani were `DO NOTS`. One of them was banning music in buses.
Now if one travels from Torkham to Wagah on GT Road, the music will start after crossing the Attock bridge. There goes little bit of Hindu - kameez tehNdi kaali. Now only sound you are allowed to hear in the buses is noise of bus engines....until that one is also banned and the preferred Islamic traveling model is ordered - bull and camel carts.

Amit 38,

There are times when I wish I could be a simpleton, but there are no schools, no books, no dummies guide to simpleton. Wish you the best.

P.S. There is no misfortune for pakistan, it is not a cyclone or earth quake, it is of their own making. Read the posts by tahmed and temporal on ``little bit of hindu`` board. Here is news for you, 6 pakistanis arrested in kenya for bombing, one pakistani executed in the US, pakistanis attacked the red fort, pakistani is the terror leader in philippines... you call it misfortune.

You talk of self criticism by pakistanis, it is superficial, no substance. Have you seen any of the pakistanis say that muslims should not be killing non-innocent hindus. Ask them who decides innocense. Here is news for you, in 1990 lahore high court declared that honour killing is legal, because it is not different from the idea of jihad, killing the non-innocent.

Amit#37

IMO, you are considering only one aspect of the issue. True that Indian and Pakistani armies have same roots. But at the time of independence and even now there was at least one glaring difference between India and Pakistan. The presence of a considerably large vocal and politically active class in India and the absence of the same in Pakistan. The heavy involvement of the masses, thanks Mahatma Gandhi, in the freedom struggle ensured a politically vigilant public in India which is a precondition for the success of democracy. Democracy can not imposed from above; but is the result of a politically active citizenry. This factor was missing in Pakistan or was weak in its impact since Pakistan never underwent a secular socio-political struggle in which masses were involved. This factor combined with the presence of a good second rung leadership in Congress guaranteed democracy in India.


PS You present the ``diversity`` of India as some sort of weakness of army due to which there is ``democracy`` in India. To summarise, I believe the more important reasons for democracy in India is politically active middle class and Indian ethos. Diversity without unity at its core is bound to self-annihilate.

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harimau: One of the event of 1965 war makes an excellent story for a movie. An Indian plane was shot down somwhere over Punjab. The Sikh pilot ejcted and landed safely. The locals treated him very very well and then handed him over to Pakistani authorites. What is so special about? Actually his parachute landed in/ or nearby the village he migrated from as a young boy during 1947 partition.

Re:Pankaj#26
I think you are being a bit naive here. Both Indian and Pakistani military have the same roots, similar traditions, similar training etc. Many of the older officers attended the same schools as well. Yet we see the Pakistani army being totally involved in politics since the 50s while the Indian army is a mute spectator. Given our general similarities with Pakistani people, surely there has got to be a good reason for this. The Pakistani army is dominated by Punjabis at all levels (except for Musharraf). Hence would-be dictators have an easier time winning the loyalty of the army for his endeavors. In India, the diversity provides an automatic check and balance against adventurism. There is no issue with regular army tasks like fighting on the front, but if someone wants to do anything extra-curricular such as topple regimes, it is much more difficult to obtain consensus.
I would posit that India`s diversity also influences why we have been able to maintain democracy. Everyone realizes that it is the only way to run the place and ensure equitable participation for all sectors or else the country will fall apart.

Re:jay#31
I have personally no illusions about Pakistan and most Pakistanis I know, are well aware of their problems. After all they have lived there and have first hand experience of how difficult life is over there. On chowk I have interacted with people like SameerJB, Bilal Ahmed and Samina Shah and they have been quite vocal about their feelings about Pakistan. I have also read columnists in Dawn and The Friday Times like Irfan Hussain, Ayaz Amir, Cowasjee, Najam Sethi, Khalid Ahmed etc who are very brutal in their criticisms of Pakistani government and society. In fact, at times I have felt that Pakistani columnists are more vocal than their Indian counterparts.
The problem is that if we Indians are too vocal in our criticism of Pakistan, it actually creates a backlash rather than anything else. It is kind of like if you have an ugly baby, you can say it is ugly but you don`t want your neighbor to say so. Also it seems like we are enjoying their misfortune, which makes us look bad. My personal opinion is that the Indo-Pak conflict will get settled the day India`s per capita income catches up with the developed world and becomes several times Pakistan`s per capita income. That day every account will get settled and we will not need to argue any further.

Ref Nova (``Doesn`t go`` in Spanish) #29

[AND SINCE WHEN HARMI ou ,& JAY HAVE INTEREST OF WELL BEING PROSPERITY & SURVIVAL OF PAKISTAN ,CLOSEST TO THE BOSSOM OF THEIR HEART ??????????????????? ]

I will have no problems at all if Pakistan has a prosperous future, survives as a nation that subscribes to peace on earth and has a sense of well-being that emanates from self-assurance about its position in the comity of nations. I may not be wrong in suggesting that Jay would be happy to see such a Pakistan.

What I have a problem with is Pakistan`s inability to accept the facts of life. Such as it is and will always remain smaller than in India by any yardstick that you use. That it has the ability to surpass India not in sheer numbers but only on proportionate basis such as per capita statistics which is more important. But such gains will come about not through confrontation with India but either through cooperation with India or through indifference to India. So long as Pakistan`s fascination with India remains morbid, Pakistan is only signing its own death warrant.

[I have never seen an H Indian ever speak softly of Ayub,Jinnah,Liaqat,Bhuttoo,Zia Or Musharaff ...... ]

I don`t think even Pakistanis think highly of these people -- with the exception of Jinnah for understandable reasons. And quite a few Punjabis didn`t like Jinnah in 1947 because they opposed the Partition.

PS. You on the other hand seem to have such a problem with India. You claim to have graduated from a top medical school in India (kicking the butts of your classmates, if I remember the expression you used in another post). You have used that as your ticket to a high-paying job in the US. Sitting here, you constantly rail against India and express your ardent support for Pakistan. You remind me of another gentleman who used to do that between the 1920s and 1940s by the name of Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Fortunately, the only damage you can do is to the psyche of your own children and not to an entire country. And, more fortunately, even that may be limited because of the influence of the liberal American environment in moulding your children`s minds. We all need to get down on our knees and thank Allah for small mercies.

Time to revisit a parable and a quote from jay to enable new chowkies to put jay’s diatribes in perspective:

_______________________________


Let me share with you the story of this Keralite Brahmin.

One day when KB was three or four and playing in the courtyard a provoked rooster fought back and attacked him. KB was frightened of roosters ever since. He genuinely believed that roosters are out to swallow him.

KB comes to States, graduates, returns to marry a beautiful Keralite girl KG. She soon discovers his phobia of roosters. Reasons with him. Rationality in this respect takes her nowhere. Eventually she nudges him to seek psychiatric help. Thus enters KP in the parable.

KB has scores of sessions with KP. KP tries hard to overcome KB’s resistance. One day he tried to use simple reasoning. He brings in a rooster in a cage, points at the rooster’s mouth and asks KB, “Look at yourself and look at this mouth, how can this rooster swallow you?”

An unconvinced and adamant KB replied, “Dr. you know it, I know it, but the rooster does not know it. Given the chance he will swallow me.”


+++++++++++++


and this admission from him


+++++++++++++


Date Posted: Jan-28-100 -2:49:52 PST Reply #: 167
jay
Temporal,

Take it easy, I didn’t /piss/ in your coke.

There is a game called intellectual origami, I take the clean pure paper of Pakistan, fold it around to make it into a jihadic monster and my good Pakistani friends are busy for a few days, removing the folds, ironing it out.

Take it easy I didn’t….

Regards

__________________________________

blood is thicker than water. congrats to isi for aligning bangalis with the good guys again. i see that progress is being made in on another very important front.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=29553659&sType=1

“Suspending their mutual hostility for a change, the government and the opposition on Wednesday shared concern over the alarming rise in the ISI activity in the eastern region and Bangladesh`s role in it”

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=29716217

“The Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) was making use of Indian expatriates working in the Gulf countries for its destructive game-plan in India, home ministry sources have said”

For those Pakistani men who are currently foaming at the mouth because of the history lessons they have learned in their schools (and this includes that dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani who claims he went to school in the Persian Gulf and that Ivy League of New Jersey and not Pakistan), here is an article from Dawn.

Read it and weep, for this is what the Pakistani Army and the fixation of being not-India have accomplished for its citizens. (And, as you read the article, don`t forget that it was that champion of the poor and the downtrodden, the great ZA Bhutto, who advised Ayub Khan to start the 1965 war.)

The final partition

By Irfan Husain

When Mr Jinnah contemplated the new country he had been pivotal in creating 55 years ago, he did not sell his property in India as he could not visualize a future in which travel between the two neighbours would become extremely difficult.

The mass killings and the vast migration that accompanied partition on both sides of the border must have been a heavy weight on his conscience.

He could not have foreseen the bloody consequences of the division of the subcontinent. Indeed, being a rational and secular person, he probably did not fathom the capacity for hatred and violence concealed in so many human hearts.

Gandhi, a leader of an altogether different mould, went on hunger strike to protest against the Congress government`s delaying tactics in transferring Pakistan`s share of the divisible cash resources, and as a result, he was assassinated by a Hindu fanatic.

Many people who fled the violence in both countries left their property and possessions in the expectation that they would be able to return to their homes once the madness had faded. Indians and Pakistanis of that generation still speak nostalgically of growing up in cities that have suddenly become enemy territory. But despite the magnitude of their loss, they are not bitter about their old friends and neighbours; indeed, they retain nothing but fond memories of their childhood. Their anger is focused on the leadership of both countries that have made travel between the two such a nightmare.

Despite the political gulf that opened up with partition and the still-festering Kashmir dispute that erupted immediately afterwards, the cultural and personal affinities between the two countries remained largely intact for some time. Until the 1965 war, travel was relatively simple and people thought little of going across the border to attend a wedding or watch a Test match.

In short, the slogans and shrill rhetoric that emanated from the leaders and propaganda machines had not infected the minds of ordinary citizens who continued to make a distinction between politicians and people. In short, the demonization of the two countries had not yet begun in the popular imagination.

During the 1965 war that began in Kashmir (where else?), pilots of both air forces took great care to avoid civilian targets. Similarly, artillery fire was directed at military targets only, and the little activity that the two navies were engaged in did not include commercial shipping. Although the propaganda war was probably more fierce than actual combat, most Pakistanis did not consider ordinary Indians to be their enemies.

Meeting Indians after the war, one did not get the impression that they felt any differently. Officers from the opposing armies who met after the end of hostilities did not harbour any personal animosity either.

Although the 1971 war evoked far greater bitterness, it was largely confined to the eastern theatre. In West Pakistan, the fighting was more of a defensive nature. But despite the air superiority the Indian air force enjoyed over Pakistani skies, it did not engage in deliberate attacks on civilian targets. I was in Lahore then and remember watching an Indian jet attacking the radar installation at the old airfield in Gulberg (which, incidentally has been taken over by our air force for officers` housing colony). Despite the target being close to so many private residences, I do not recall any reports of civilian casualties.

It was in the seventies that travel became more and more difficult. An entire generation of Pakistanis and Indians grew up with no personal knowledge of each other, their minds poisoned by jingoistic textbooks and official propaganda. More and more young people on both sides of the border began to harbour a personal animus without really knowing very much of the cultural ties that still existed. Even though Pakistanis watched (and continue to watch) Bollywood blockbusters and Indians were enthralled by Pakistani TV soap operas, the gulf between the two countries grew. Popular music, cricket and hockey supplied just about the only glue to the relationship.

Over 30 years have passed since the 1971 war, and apart from Kargil, we have not engaged in any major conflicts. But Kargil was a watershed in many ways. For the first time, there were allegations of uncivilized conduct when infiltrators from this side were accused of having mutilated the bodies of Indian soldiers.

Right or wrong, ordinary Indians were shocked and outraged that the peace moves initiated by their government had been answered by an act of perceived aggression. Being mostly unaware of the hold the military has on decision-making even when a civilian is nominally in power, they saw the infiltration as an act of treachery. More than that, they became convinced for the first time that Pakistan was not interested in peace.

Coming as it did after a decade of escalating violence in Kashmir, for many Indians, Kargil was the proverbial last straw. A hit movie was soon churned out showing Pakistanis as brutal killers; a computer game carried the same message. On our side, the official media and many private newspapers spared no effort in showing Indians in the same light.

Similarly, when General Musharraf travelled to Agra last year, many of us in Pakistan wished him to succeed, and were bitterly disappointed when the talks were broken off when they seemed so close to success. The general perception was that the hawks in India had succeeded in derailing the negotiations just when there was promise of a breakthrough.

Whatever the reality, the fact is that relations between the two nations have never been worse. Despite the economic, cultural and geographic imperatives, we are further away from normality than ever before. Whenever I have written about the urgent need for peace, I have been tauntingly reminded of Kargil by Indian readers who have also gratuitously informed me that their country is far ahead of Pakistan and does not need us. Several of them gloatingly sent me reports of the successful visit of Microsoft`s Bill Gates to India. Pakistani detractors, on the other hand, go on at length about the rights and wrongs of the Kashmir issue and advise me to return to India if I am unhappy about the state of affairs in Pakistan.

Irrespective of whose fault it is, the fact is that we have succeeded in partitioning the subcontinent far more thoroughly than was originally visualized for we have achieved a division of a shared culture and a shared past.

re: amit

{It is difficult for a South Indian general to get the loyalty of the Sikh regiment, if he tries to become a dictator.}


...which looney bin did you pick that out of?...

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Pankaj 26,

You could be very far from truth. The divide and rule policy of the british is followed even today in the indian army, not in air force and navy. The regiments are on ethnic lines, maratha regiment has only maraths up to the NCO level, similar with the rajputana rifles, sikh and others with officers mostly from other ethnic groups.

During the stay of the officers, the foot soldiers develop a healthy hatred to wards the officers. In the 1965 war with pakistan many officers were shot by their own foot soldiers. Since then it is a standard practice to transfer the officers just before a war.

Once again the three chiefs are not supposed to meet even socially with out the presence of a person not below the rank of a secretary in the defence ministry. Socialising across the forces is frowned up on and can barr you from higher ranks, though not stated publically.

Amit 24,

The reason why I have to read letters to the editors in dawn can be found in my post to pankaj. No pakistani would dare to post something like that about pakistan pointing out a reality of pakistan simply because of fatwafobia or a nation of patriotism. Pakistanis enforce the ultimate form of censorship, the most debilitating version, the self sencorship. Only place one can see some glimpses of pak reality is in tangential references in letters to the editors.

To give an example from chowk, at least five times YLH posted that almost every city in pakistan has a road named after Abdus Salam, no one, except hamid in his unique style commented up on it.

Do you know that several temples in pakistan were raised to the ground in what pak govt says as spontaneous response to babri masjid. Youu can never see a report on it, nor you can expect any pakistani on chowk to accept it. In india it is still a raging topic, the babri majid.

Do you know that in pakistan bussiness income tax is collected by electricity company as a percetage of electricity bill. No body will mention it while extolling the great finace minister they have.

The apparently decent tahmeds, temporals and others on chowk are living a sherade, it is only a pretention of decency, and at the slightest provocation, the true pakistani comes out. Read their comments the thread `` the little bit of hindu``.

What you read about pakistan in their news papaers and on chowk is a self censored version, the reality in pakistan is very different. Just imagine for a moment, the biggest event in pakistan, the equivalent of maha kumbh mela in india is the annual get together of lasker e toiba in madreke, attended by more than a million pakistanis.

The burka pakistanis were is not a body cover, it hides their minds.

westwind #18:
[YESTERDAY,S FAROQUE SATTAR,S PRESS CONFERENCE IS THE EVIDENCE...IN WHICH HE SAID THAT A POWERFUL LOBBY IN THE ESTABLISHMENT WAS RESISTING GEN MUSHARRAF} AND MOREOVER IF ARMY ENTERS INT POLITICS, POLITICS WILL ALSO ENTER INTO THE RANKS OF ARMY. ]
Thanks god there are still some people in the establishment who consider Musharraf illegitimate and a robber. Why should anybody support him on principles? Should they support him because of referendum or rubber stamp Supreme court decisions?
During my college years in Pakistan, Islami Jamiaat-e-Tuliba were deliberately asking their cadre to apply for commission in the Army. I knew so many of jamaatias from Government College Rawalpindi who joined army. Many of them must be now colonels and possibly Brigadiers. The JI was openly trying for years to fill military ranks with their supporters. I do not know the situation now. Who knows how many of them are thinking themselves to be divinely ordained to fix all the problems of the world overrunning any law any government in their way.

[Thus, why not a forward bloc in the army? PAP – Pakistan Army Patriots. ]

I do not understand what the concept of Forward Bloc is supposed to be. I am low on PIQ (Political IQ). Explain me: Can there be factions within Forward Bloc. Like PAP-Musharraf, PAP-XYZ, PAP-ABC? How does it work? Don`t you think it is much sensible and simpler to ask army to go away, like t says?

-ew

Mr. Amit

``The diversity in the Indian army is one reason we do not see this phenomenon in India. It is difficult for a South Indian general to get the loyalty of the Sikh regiment, if he tries to become a dictator. ``

Thank God, Indian soldiers and Generals dont think like you. And praise be to the Lord that people like you are not in the Indian army. Sir, I can say this with some confidence because if enough people started thinking the way you do, there would be no India. The Indian Army is a cohesive and disciplined unit and doesn`t consist of people with divisive agendas as your highness. If there are no coups in India, the reason is the presence of strong civil institutions and respect for the choice of the people. The Indian Army is there to protect the interests of the nation and people; not to enslave them. The day Indian Army or politicians start storming Supreme Courts and destroying the civil institutions, will be the beginning of the end for India.

A thunderbolt of a punching column -- a red hot idea

3 cheers for Nighat Yasmeen -- for delivering a General`s Jaw Breaker

and why not --

as Westwind says in his memorable sentence -- ``IF ARMY ENTERS INTO POLITICS, POLITICS WILL/MUST ALSO ENTER INTO THE RANKS OF ARMY.````

Re:jay#20
Jay, as someone who totally hates Pakistan, you seem to be obsessed with them. You even read the letters to the editor section in Dawn and bother to cut and paste from there. You have every right to hate Pakistan but it is intriguing that you spend so much effort researching your enemy. What is it that keeps you attracted to Pakistan ? Did some Pakistani girl break your heart in the past ?

Ref amit #21

[While Pakistanis always talk about Ghairat, they never seem to be able to stand up to their army. Even within the army, everyone is in lock step with Musharraf, even as he goes way beyond his original responsibilities as army chief. I think the solution to this is to make the army a lot more diverse, say give equal representation to all the four provinces in recruitment. This will provide some checks and balances within the army and discourage dictatorships. The diversity in the Indian army is one reason we do not see this phenomenon in India. It is difficult for a South Indian general to get the loyalty of the Sikh regiment, if he tries to become a dictator. ]

If you suggest that the Indian Army`s discipline will break down if a South Indian general attempts a coup, it should break down when the same South Indian general ordered his troops to lay down their lives in the icy mountains of Kargil or Siachen. After all, in a coup, the Sikh regiment could expect to survive with minimal or no casualties.

It is to the generals` immense credit that they don`t think of themselves as the saviours of India. They have the same contempt that the Pak Army officers have for civilians and politicians but they recognize that they do not want to inherit the problems of running a country as fractious as India. The standing orders that say that the GOCs of various Commands cannot meet without the Prime Minister`s authorization may help in preventing a coup but I am sure they can arrange to meet clandestinely if they really want to. It is just that the general officers, having come up the ranks saying ``Yes, sir`` to their senior officers, do the same when they meet with the political leadership of the country. They have the humility to recognize that the politicians, however crooked, however incompetent, however venal and corrupt, have got the one thing that they lack: a mandate from the people.

I wonder, along with another interactor, why Pakistani men are such muddleheaded idiots when the women are so intelligent and clearsighted :)

I look forward to the day India and Pak have all women governments. They can then generously set a `quota` for men`s seats what do you say and then make jokes about testosterone-hormonal imbalance in the legislature house.

Women parliamentarians can then out of sheer liberality mourn the lack of safety for men and debate death penalty for the rape of men, like Shri Advani recently did for rape of women.

Women journalists can then express their liberal thoughts on hijab for men, like Khalid Hassan of The Daily Times recently did about hijab for women. Like Mr Hassan, they can argue, that men shouldnot be asked to wear hijab, because men have always liked to beautify themselves.

Just like Mr Hassan argued that women having to wear hijab was a travesty which would make Marilyn Monroe indistinguishable from Phoolan Devi, women can argue that men having to wear hijab was an injustice which would make Musharraf indistinguishable from George Bush.

Women can then be progressive and set up commissions to make recommendations about men`s abysmal literacy rate and the discriminatory laws against men, including laws of inheritance and adultery. We would have serials called ` Kyonki Sasur bhi kabhi Damaad tha` and raise the masulinists shackles.

Kab aayega woh sunehara din :)?

SAD DAY FOR PAKISTAN

There are reports that the US is recruiting mercenaries for search and destroy missions in pakistan to hunt down the jihadists. It is sad to see the mighty pak army and the people of pakistan are silent on this.

At one time it was the US that funded and funnelled the jihadists from all over the world to fight in afghanistan. Again the pakistanis accepted it as mana from the white gods.

The new set up is against fellow pakistanis. Of course US is benefitted, to knock of kasi in pakistan would have been much easier than all the court drama and the lethal injection.

At last I am happy, at least US is listening to my view that delivering shahdad at the door step is the most humane and cost effective help to any jihadist. US is not well known for its considerations to foreigners, this time it is the greatest help.

A MODEL FOR PAKISTAN

It is rare to see an upright muslim these days, most are ashamed of themselves, unable to speak what they believe in. Here is a a model for pakistanis. I look forward to a day when a pakistani with back bone will stand up and defend their action in kashmir as the lebanese envoy has done. I look forward to the day when a pakistani will accept that it is a jiahdic country and liberate kashmir. from dawn of today



Lebanese envoy`s interview



I Would like to share with Dawn readers the transcript of Lebanese ambassador Farid Abboud`s interview on the Fox News channel.

Fox: Mr ambassador, do you consider Hizbollah a terrorist organization?

Abboud: Yes, Sharon is a terrorist!

Fox: Mr ambassador, this was not my question. I asked you about the operations of Hizbollah in the targeting and killing of innocent civilians. How do you view Hizbollah?

Abboud: Yes, Sharon, the terrorist, has killed thousands upon thousands of civilians. He is the biggest terrorist out there.

Fox: Mr ambassador. Please answer my question. Do you consider Hizbollah a terrorist organization or not? Are you against the killing of innocent civilians?

Abboud: Of course I am against the killing of innocent civilians. You have to define who the innocent civilians are. Sharon, the terrorist, has killed many thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians; and he is continuing to do so.

Fox: But what about Hizbollah? Are you telling us that Hizbollah never killed any civilians or plotted to kill any innocent civilians?

Abboud: Hizbollah is a resistance movement. They have a place in the Lebanese parliament and they are fighting for justice and for a good cause. If there were innocent civilians hurt in the process, they are a casualty of war. Hizbollah does not target civilians on purpose, unlike the war-monger, Sharon, whose only targets have been civilians, including children.

Fox: Mr ambassador, does this mean you condone the suicide bombers?

Abboud: I do not condone the actions of the war criminal Sharon.

Fox interviewer: Mr ambassador, please stop evading my questions and answer them directly! Do you condone the suicide bombers?

Abboud: I do not condone the killing of innocent civilians, but we have to define who is an innocent civilian and who is not. If a Palestinian suicide bomber kills a bunch of Israeli soldiers who are committing atrocities against the defenceless Palestinian population, do you consider these soldiers as innocent civilians?

Fox interviewer: Mr Abboud, do you recognize Israel`s right to exist?

Abboud: Yes, I recognize Palestine`s right to exist.

Fox interviewer (no words to describe his face): Mr ambassador. Please stop this aversion in answering, and answer our specific questions. Do you recognize Israel`s right to exist or not?

Abboud: Israel already exists, sir. It does not need my recognition. It is the recognition of Palestine to exist that should be addressed.

Fox: Mr ambassador, why are you so one-sided and biased in answering our questions?

Abboud: Sir, it is you who is very one-sided and biased in your questioning.

Fox interviewer (totally at a loss of words): Mr Abboud, Lebanese ambassador to the US, thank you, sir, for your time and the interview.

IMTIAZ AHMED

New York, USA

Nighat,
While Pakistanis always talk about Ghairat, they never seem to be able to stand up to their army. Even within the army, everyone is in lock step with Musharraf, even as he goes way beyond his original responsibilities as army chief. I think the solution to this is to make the army a lot more diverse, say give equal representation to all the four provinces in recruitment. This will provide some checks and balances within the army and discourage dictatorships. The diversity in the Indian army is one reason we do not see this phenomenon in India. It is difficult for a South Indian general to get the loyalty of the Sikh regiment, if he tries to become a dictator.

THE PEOCESS OF A FORWARD BLOCK IN ARMY IS ALREADY IN THE OFFING...{YESTERDAY,S FAROQUE SATTAR,S PRESS CONFERENCE IS THE EVIDENCE...IN WHICH HE SAID THAT A POWERFUL LOBBY IN THE ESTABLISHMENT WAS RESISTING GEN MUSHARRAF} AND MOREOVER IF ARMY ENTERS INT POLITICS, POLITICS WILL ALSO ENTER INTO THE RANKS OF ARMY.

Let me say: Pakistani women zindabad. This article, one by Riffat Jahan, Bina Shah and most Pakistani origin female interactors have outshined the male counterparts over and over. The future of Pakistan is safer in their hands than bunch of masochistic males.
I am now worried about me not fitting in the doli......
Talking about horse trading, guess who made the killing for his vote. No it is not Faisal Saleh Hayat or Rao Sikander. He is Maulana Tahir Ul Qadri of Pakistani Awami Tehrik (Asif Naqshbandi favorite). He sold his vote for a cool 10 crore cash in 1000 rupee bills.
If MQM stays out, look for another round of major Horse trading. This time the member of Jamaat-e-Islami of MMA and Chaudhry Nisar of PML (N) group will go up for trade or dissolution of this assembly.
Very good article, Nighat Yasmeen. Speaking from the heart with open mind is much better than playing politics in articles.

any moment now, someone is going to post the wp article

[The writer is a simple housewife with no extraordinary academic credentials, but refuses to be a passive spectator anymore...]

How come the Pakistani womenfolk have their heads screwed on right whereas the menfolk are generally (with a few exceptions) seen to be foaming at the mouth and ranting and raving? Could it be that girls do not get as much religious instruction as boys do? Perhaps we should all thank Allah and Al-Kitab for the misogyny of the mullahs if that means that 52% of the population of Pakistan is sane.

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JUST TO KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE PART III

The Astounding List of Khaki Stakes in Pakistan

A look at the Army’s economic interests in this country would prove that it has an institutional clash with democratic institutions.
Here is a list of these interests:
- Largest economic investment group: Army Welfare Trust;
- Largest goods transport system: National Logistics Cell;
- Largest media managers: Inter Services Public Relations and Askari Information Systems Limited;
- Largest bank-financing conductor and monitoring group: Askari Bank/Financing Ltd
- Largest industrial network: defence production; cement; fertilisers; textiles; footwear; engineering goods; power distribution network;
- Largest (strategic) petroleum and related products consumer, storing manager, distributor and investor;
- Largest construction network (Frontier Works Organisation);
- Largest stocks-holder on stock exchanges on account of the above plus share-buying network;
- Largest land-owner: every 15 kilometre a garrison; each large town having a Defence Housing Society; all retired Army officers holding agricultural land allotted on retirement;
- Largest education network: National Defence College, National University of Science and Technology, 13 Cadet Colleges, numerous Army Public Schools;
- Largest health marketing group: Combined Military Hospitals system; Army Medical Corps;
- Largest research and development (R&D) investors/mangers;
- Largest employer (both in Army, AWT/FWO and Army’s economic networks);
- Largest income-distributor;
- Largest lawgiver: Army’s legal (Jack) branch;
- Largest political network (ISI/MI/FIU);
- Largest electioneering group (retired Army officers and the Club they manage);
- Largest serving bureaucracy group: 21 percent Army officers’ induction in civilian set up.
If you analyse the above carefully, these conclusions are inevitable:
- No taxation can take place without Army’s interest held supreme;
- No legislation can be carried out without safeguarding Army’s interest;
- No investment is safer than buying Army’s stocks;
- No investor can operate independent of Army’s “sensitive” interests;
- No politicians can conceive policies against these vital interests;
- No civilian government can get elected or operate without Army’s consent in all spheres;


full article at:

http://www.satribune.com/archives/nov25_dec1_02/opinion_journalistarmy.htm

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JUST TO KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE PART I

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001541&channel=civic%20center&start=60&end=69&page=7&chapter=1#51

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JUST TO KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE PART II

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001541&channel=civic%20center&start=60&end=69&page=7&chapter=1#52

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sac, where is our friend?

...t

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>>>
Ask yourself, what is a bigger and more deplorable sin: to be a prostitute or to be a pimp? Likewise, who bears the ultimate responsibility for the revival of horse-trading: the horses or the traders?
<<<<

Well, prostitution is not deplorabale. Pimps and prostitutes r both important for sex industry, and sex is important for human beings. It is just the unprincipled business that is deploarable. That is y I ask govts to legalise prostitution, and make them accountable.

And this is the problem with pak army. They r not accountable to anyone except white house. And Bush and co have their own prioritties.

Barring the offenisve use of prostitution example, nice article, though.

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Jeez.......phew!!!!

You are some frustrated houswife....tauba.

Nighat ! welcome to chowk

very well written piece, .....For Chowk staff, i know its thanksgiving, but do we have to stuffed with all Paksitan Army related articles and posts.This one is third in one week time and we are already dying reading neighbourhood posts, give it a break....put more something like Sohail Rana and towards Ramzan stuff.

[Just for putting the record straight, Musharraf’s so-called favourite “silent majority” clearly voted against him in the last election,]

Silent majority remained silent on Election Day and preferred to stayed at home specially in cities.

One thing i assure you may b Mushraf will endup like Ayub or Zia but fagots like Faisal & Rao`ll keep winning their seats with high margin.

Nighat:

Welcome to chowk…a good first effort…please continue speaking out…

(if you are new here, please ignore long, rambling and rambunctious tunnel-visioned response from the Pak Army’s lonely few supporters in the diaspora that will surface here shortly)

…in Unraveling Pakistan have suggested taking on the brave Pak Army from another angle…

…bibi, the problem is the army…it has to be removed in its entirety from the equation…

…the Pak Army cannot be part of any solution…it has to go…away…

…t

Your article seems to indicate that you are not totally happy with Musharraf Bonaparte? Indeed, it can easily be construed to be instigation of the peasants on chowk, and High Treason!! You are sentenced to 14 years RI in the Khera Salt Mines (Women`s Section)!!

The pimps! the pimps are worse!

as for a forward bloc, should we expect some pimps to grow a consciounce? a pimp`s mutiny to emerge?

Interesting, but I think Pakistanis are far from helpless. History is just too repetitive, different name, same story.

This was one of the best thoughtout and well formatted articles I have read in a long time. A job well done!