Moderate Muslims

#337 by keshto on January 8, 2003 5:59pm PT

The practice of female genital mutilation by Muslims all over North Africa, Middle East, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. have nothing to do with real Islam

dear dear .... your are forthing ...

so female genitial mutilation... in pakistan and indonesia, middle east??

clever .... but not so clever...
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The Taliban`s destruction of Bhuddist antiquities has nothing to do with real Islam.

they were there for more than 600 years under muslim rule.... that was not Islam enough for you..

Iran ... is a better place than a slum in mumbai.. or a tribal hamlet in India or it truns our even the Haryana where 5 humans were burnt for skinning a dead cow.. and subsequent events indicate nothing that denotes that the common people (in the power stucture, ie majority hindus) are against it.. So this is hinduism or not?? If it is not then why not...

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Women oppression and inequality ...


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you mean sati is part of hinduism??
my my you would sitll be hard pressed to find an answer because the here is the truth...

Atharva Veda.6.2.3 : `` Let a female child be born somewhere else; here, let a male child be born.``

or is it..

Manu.IX.94 : `` A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner.``


tut. tut.. why hide behind the west to beat the muslims ....



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The verses in the Quran and hadiths justifying the slaughter of the Banu Qurayza by Allah`s Apostle (pbuh) have nothing to do with real Islam.
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you mean you have differnet methods to deal with tratitors... now how about a taking a differnt view of the seperatists in Kashmir by the same logic.....

.........hmmm i think that you are the ones who think that religion is some thing that is left to religous ceremonies where the bhramisns can tax the ceremonies..

after all your wife would not sit on a pyre if you die in a accident tomorrow..

KESHTO STICK TO COMEDY.. IN BOLLYWOOD MOVIES...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Moderate Muslims? the decaff version? Let`s face facts, most ``moderates`` do not imagine that they have enough education in the religion to take these lunatics who have so effortlessly hijacked Islam. This is especially true of Pakistanis, in every area where the competition is which values shall Islam emphasize, the moderates concede - is it any wonder then that someone here has a article about being a eunuch and a Muslim as not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Of course the problem is not the Dowd`s the Friedman`s or the Rushdie`s, the problem is not outside Islam, it`s inside Islam. Who will prevail, my money is on the underdog.

#334 by rsridhar on December 26, 2002 10:20pm PT
I think most indians need to get over their Pakistan mania.. It is no better or worse than Bihar(beign mainly agrarian and fedual) except that its geopolitics gets its involved in issues with internal ramifications. Now you wouldnt balme hinduism for the mess in Bihar would you?
But your main point seems to be how the world is reacting to pakistani along with the other countries mentioned.
Now this world would react the same way if it happened that the Hindu fundamentalist had to interact withthe world as the voilent muslim groups do mainly becuase the world is heavily involved in their countries.
Also the world as you deifine it is the west US in particular. So as long as IRA terrorists were killing innocents in UK it was not a big botheration as their fight was with UK and even the US Bostonians could be major Funders of IRA and get away with it.
Similarly as long as the khalaisthanis did not target America (because it is not geopoliticaly involved in India)they let them stay in America even after the Bombing of Kanishka.

So the crime according to you is going international in terrorism(more preciesily taking it to US)..... Strange morality...

That LTTE has sued for peace did not happen in isolation. It is because they have been able to get the srilankan govt to its knees. But however you will have to acknowledge that it has some goals and now those are being negotiated.

With indias policy of not negotiating (mainly with Kashmiris other groups now mainly in the north east it is ok) and just opposing is a designed policy which has more to it than meet the eye. The arrogance and hate that the Indian establishment harbours against pakistan(recriprocrated by them or initiated as we prefer to belive) results in them not bothering with the people being killed or a entire community being improvshied..

Now if we are honest about democracy the very basis should alllow us to let people to go their way if they choose to. In fact neogtiateing for extended autonomy will be better than the present response which is simply is unethical considering that the muslims under Sheik Abdullah prefered to remain in India when they thought their independence would be preserved within inida by autonomy rather than by merging with pakistan they Quickly changed their opinion when they saw the response of Indian establishment which saw the promises it gave as simply carrots to trap a state to spite pakistan and prove the TNT wrong.

Pakistans polity has been affected by its need to keep kashmir on top of agenda and it is has been paying the price for this.
India is going on the same path the National investment of the Idea of India is commonly based on terrority and not any Ideals. had democracy been the basis then we would not have need to retain Kashmir and a few other north easternstates within india to justify the union of India. As it is we are scared to death that any modification of borders will some how bring about a total collapse all over India and we go to absurd lengths to keep our prentions (Keeping the pakistan occupied kashmir on our maps even after 50 years). Has any one honestly considered if any kashmiri in that part of kashmir wants to merge back into India??
Even a casual round of interviews with the mirpuris living in UK will prove that there is no love for India among the kashmiris living in that part of kashmir. Similarly if we had the guts to accept that India should be a state that can survive with those people who agree to be with India we wouldnt be having the colflict on kashmir.

The negotiations with LTTE as well as the Negotiations with IRA give the path those socites(not arrogant enough because of ulimited power) are taking to bring about peace. However The US has a diffrent agenda they are least bothered as they can bomb and kill a few millions without affecting their citzens and similarly India has no qulams to going to any length including rigging elections, going back on negotiated treatys, Killing thousands to keep kashmir.

As long this Idea of terroritial boders is kept in the national Phsyce it cannot counter the agenda of the of the Sangh. In fact the agenda of the Sangh just takes this Idea to its logical conclusion.
The Indian investment in this is so deep that there is very little chance to change the course of political change taking place. Without abandoing the method of hooking our national Identity on teritoriral boders we cannot logicaly oppose the rise of the the Sangh.
It is inevitable that we will travel down the same path as pakistan sooner or later then there will be nothing much to complain....
Looking at politician-burecracy nexus is just looking at the symptom not the disease. I hope that you are not under the impression that they exist in isolation with socitey. Which politican or burecracat would you blame the votes in favour of Modi in gujrat. Whom would you blame for the rise of Advani to home minister.
The answer is clearly the people.
We cant escape the fact that the politicans that we throw up are a reflection of the people and beliveing in anything else is wishful thinking at best or cover up at worst.

re:#332 by ali87
You don`t get it, do you? I never denied the fact that riots have happened in India at regular intervals since 1947. Poverty and ignorance in India feed fanaticism. BJP did not invent riots. Congress has specialised in political rioting over the last 50 years. Every Indian is aware of that. The media is aware. Noone is denying it. As political awareness spreads and media becomes stronger, it will break the politician-bureaucracy nexus. Police will then not be subservient to politicians and will be answerable to the people. Media will be the watchdog. All this will come to pass and will make India a more humane society than it is today.
I was talking about the route Islamic fundamentalism is taking today. Pakistanis in US have to register by end of February 2003 or face the wrath of INS. Not even the Indian muslims face this situation. Nobody in US is saying book the Indoos because the party in power in Gujarat killed a few thousand muslims. Do you see the difference? Shias and Sunnis regualarly kill each other in Karachi. How many Shia doctors have died there? The world is not bothered. The world is not bothered about Gujarat pogrom the way it is about madrassas in Pakistan and what Mushy is upto with his ISI cronies and if his nuclear assets are safe or not. Gujarat is India`s problem and it will deal with it. For Paksitan, its very survival is at stake. So, i suggest you get down to ground zero and smell the SH!T around you.

India is not a perfect place. Whereas sikhs were victimised post-Indira Gandhi assasination, what you fail to mention is the number of lives of sikhs saved by ordinary hindus. Politicians in Delhi organised the rioting but average hindu saved lives. I was an intern working in a Delhi hospital at that time. So i should know.
LTTE may be a hindu organisation but even Tamilians in India have disowned any connection with it. What is your point? Tamilians the world over are not being victimised because LTTE has been terrorising the Srilankan population. LTTE`s agenda is limited to its country. Besides, it has sued for peace now.
Sridhar

alephnull`?          

alephnull is the mathematical symbol for the smallest infinitely large number sounds oneself already rather crazy, but there are ranges in mathematics, in those it sense makes differentiated to the more well-known indication of ` infinitely ` - the lying eight - is the following: the potentially infinite, thus everything designates the lying eight that strives to the infinite alephnull is aktual the infinite, alephnull is thus ` genuinly infinitely `, while the eight only is ` perhaps infinite `.
I do not study by the way mathematics (at least not whole...)
  Aleph-null has always represented something more to me than just the set of ordinals. It`s the smallest of the infinities. The least of the infinite. It is infinite, but it could be more; it has room to grow.For me this is like people. Each contains the infinite, whether it is viewed as potential, the god-head, the fuzzy logic idea that the whole is contained within the part, the spirit, the soul, or even the self-destructive determinism of the atheist with its power to decide among infinite possibilities of states of being that one must be true and finite.But if the individual is infinite or contains it, why bother growing? Because we are but the least of the infinites until we add to ourselves. We can be more, and finite additions can develop patterns that imply infinite continuity, and so possibly increase our ordinality. Individuals can combine to grow together and so find greater ordinalities through mutual growth and support. This implies that by sharing and participating in relationships, in communities, that we not only contribute to the growth of others, but to ourselves, as well. And then the expression ``get Real`` has a whole new meaning (if you don`t get this, go back and read the mini-text on infinity--Real numbers have a greater ordinality and are represented as aleph-one)The flip side is that we truly are only limited by the boundaries placed upon us by ourselves and those whose influence we chose to accept. This may or may not sound terribly obvious, but I think it`s a point most people miss--we choose how much of our infinity to recognize. We are continually influenced by those around us, by patterns of behavior, expectations of others and ourselves, by who we were yesterday, and last week, and ten years ago. We can choose whether to accept those influences or not. Some choose to ignore or circumvent many of these influence; many of these are societal criminals. The more successful are artists, writers, poets, and other people with both the vision to see in ways others fail to, and the ability to convey what it is they see in a way that is comprehensible to those who are more limited in their interpretations of their experience.Divergent or nonlinear thinkers.Visual artists see things--angles, colors, shapes--the way they ``really are`` instead of the way most others interpret them (okay, it`s all abstract interpretation of data, but they interpret from a more basic interpretation set). They must see beyond what they have learned about interpreting vision while growing up, and learn that seeing and interpreting are two individual stages that most people never separate. Similar differences between perception and interpretation can be found in the other senses, and I believe in thinking. Most people are rather trapped in their normal modes of interpretation and evaluation. I attempt to see things from other perspectives. I try to associate seemingly disparate concepts and elements and see that they are not so different after all. Or maybe they are, but we`d never really know if we didn`t try and see.Okay, it all sounds kind of crazy to most people, but it helps me maintain what Thoreau calls ``an infinite expectation of the dawn.`` It also seems to conform to my theory of solipsistic congruity, which I`ll link to as soon as I can manage a coherent explanation. Back

#328 by AlephNull on December 23, 2002 7:55pm PT

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I have better things to do with my time than learn the uncouth tongue of barbaric Bedouin nomads in order to read alleged `revelations`

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HEY GUYS READ WHAT HE WROTE IN HIS EARLIER POST...

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I would fish out my well-thumbed volumes of Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim or whatever and point to the hadith where the Prophet Mohammed advises....
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You are pathetically literal-minded and don`t seem to understand the subjunctive mood (``Were I to answer in the same mode``). Those traditions are available in English translation

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He.. He.. he... so you only dont want to read it in the orignal language....

boy you have got your self in a twist...(Bharamin convlulsion)

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Not everyone buys the spiel of having to learn the original language in which a text was supposedly `revealed`. You do not find typically find lay Christians queueing up to learn Hebrew and Syriac and Hellenistic Greek in order to intelligently discuss and critique their religion; they are generally content to rely on authorized translations of the bible with footnotes explaining the nuanced readings of controversial words or passages.
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Perhaps they that is because they dont have a text to speak of. The Bible that exists is more of a narrative of what was heard or suppossedly recorded by some. The Bible in its present compilation/edition is culled from thousands of such scrols and many have been left out for reasons best know to the team of scholars(sic.) who are suppossed to have slaved for decades to ARRIVE at the Bible in its present form.


Perhaps this is the reason that they are not encouraged to look at the orignal texts. Perhaps then they will question why is christianity was given the name when jesus himself didnot specify such. Why the concepet of church was not enunicated by Jesus. Why is there a new set of scriptures when Jesus in the present bible says that he has not come to bring a new religion but has come to call for application of the existing (then courropted ) Law (ie jewish). Well anyway that is digressing ....


Try to understand and enjoy Ghalib in english and you will get an Idea why he is better read in the orignal language he wrote.

Ever tried to make sense of the English subtitles in Hindi Movies.. You will know why Muslims prefer to have the Koran in the Orignal language..

May be you should chant the slokhas in english in your temple makes for better understanding.. Now why didnt this pandit think of this earlier???... Hmm.. the reasons are well known to both hindus aswell as Muslims from the subcontinent.
Dont think everyone has forgetten why the lower castes were penalised when they attemped to learn Sanskrit.

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Anyway, still more desperate evasions and excuses but no attempt to argue your original position

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More `` Bhramin convulsion``

The pandit now fully twisted in his own counfused rambling frogot to read the large text cut and pasted in #322 .......

But like I said he is not intrested in discussiion....;

Where do you think the various funders of the famous VHP are in the US? The funding which enabled the VHP to carry out its progrom in Gujrat.. Do people think that they are sitting in mandirs chanting slokhas?? they are here in the guise of entirely reasoning ALephNull`s and his kind.

#329 by AlephNull on December 23, 2002 7:55pm PT
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You make me laugh - projecting your pathetic persecution complex on your opponents. I`m sorry to disturb your paranoid delusions, but I suspect that a survey may actually find Brahmins to be on the whole more liberal in their attitudes to Muslims than Hindus at large.

Anyway, still more desperate evasions and excuses but no attempt to argue your original position. A most impressive performance!
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#330 by rsridhar on December 25, 2002 6:32pm PT

The reason is simple. The vily Indoos are not going around killing other people over religion as muslim terrorists from your country are doing.


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Honest I think that if a research is done it may find that cow urine does dement the brain.. he he.. Joking..

But seriously who else would call others demented or having preseqution mania and like to calim to the hurt inflicted by muslims on their Physce for centuries.... and even claim that majority of muslims(coverted) are seriously trying to recover fromthis pain by adopting some hindu cultural rituals in their marriages or social interactions...

The sillest fo the myths is of peacefull hindus ... Where are they?

You mean the peacefull who killed 2000 in Gujarat, 2700 in delhi, many more thousands in various roits and in the many and continuing caste based massacres all over India..


Lets see the facts RSSridhar....

A few muslims kill about 3000 people in New york, they are cheered by some muslims and most condemm them..

And Hindus kill thousnads in roits in India. How many thousnads were killed by the LTTE?? They are not muslim are they??
How many sikhs were killed in Delhi in 1984 .... 2700 Now no pakistan or US or Taliban to interfere i catching the culprits.. Who was responsible? Who was caught? who was punished? Plenty of condemmnation though I will admit..

Similarly Advani sits in as a Home Minister. This man was leading the mob in demolishing Babri masjid.. Now how does it happen that the whole of India accepts him as Home Minister?? Now even the case against him is withdrawn...
Admitted there are diffculties in prosecuting him. And why are these difficulties? Because he has popular suppourt or at least suppourt of substantial minoroty of Hindus.
Now your gall is only against the Muslims in pakistan or else where in similar situation... Why??
We dont see you ranting about the a fairly large section of hindus who are responsible for this.. In india

Or do you want to count the thousnads of muslims Killed in Gujrat?? Now We have a Govt which orcheraestrated such a mass murder and looting and burning spree. The hindus of Gujrat have put such a govt back into power while whole of India sits and twiddles its thumbs while Vajypayee alternatively blames muslims for their own killings time and again....

You only have difficulty accepting the reasioning of OBL that the Americans deserved what he gave them...


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In India, caste system will peter out slowly. It will become irrelevant as Dalits and other downtrodden gain political clout.
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True it is possible.. However that was a part of your religon like many other things now abandoned...

Now you feel very optimistic about hindus who have to still modify and abandon many aspects of their religion but you are pessimisitc about muslims who only have to go back to the orignal principles of their religion of justice and peace.


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What future does your country have if it keeps training and sending terrorists across the globe
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I dont know about my country part... but pakistan is a differnt matter.. How ever what future did India had when it was sending terroriists across the palk straits?? Or have you forgetten the LTTE terrorist training camps in Tamil Nadu?? or have you forgetten the assasination of Rajiv Gandhi by a Hindu Human bomb??

On the other hand may be your are right it is only sending across the globe that which is bad.. across to srilanka is ok.. or within Gujrat thats ok.....

AlephNull as you can see that 2700 sikhs, 2000 muslims many thousands of or christians, low caste hindus, muslims and you call paranoid delusions....

Pandit convulsion at work....

re:#315 by ali87
Did you hear the news that Pakis in US are being humiliated by INS? Did you ponder over in your demented brain the reason why this is not happening to the caste-conscious Indoos? You do not have to be a rocket scientist to know the answer. Still, since your brain is not functioning, either due to the cow`s urine that you drank in Bangalore or the same that you ingested from the sweet shop in Hyderabad, let me clarify.
The reason is simple. The vily Indoos are not going around killing other people over religion as muslim terrorists from your country are doing. In India, caste system will peter out slowly. It will become irrelevant as Dalits and other downtrodden gain political clout. What future does your country have if it keeps training and sending terrorists across the globe? Wake up to the reality. Pak`s usefulness as an ally to US is diminishing by the day. You need to fear the day when US will do to your country what it did to Afghanistan. Cow`s urine is not going to kill the Indoos who are foolish enough to drink it but daisy-cutters will kill anything in its way.
Sridhar

Ali87 #327

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I have better things to do with my time than learn the uncouth tongue of barbaric Bedouin nomads in order to read alleged `revelations`

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HEY GUYS READ WHAT HE WROTE IN HIS EARLIER POST...

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I would fish out my well-thumbed volumes of Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim or whatever and point to the hadith where the Prophet Mohammed advises....
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You are pathetically literal-minded and don`t seem to understand the subjunctive mood (``Were I to answer in the same mode``). Those traditions are available in English translation. They can even be found on the web. The affair of the milch camels can be found at the link below (No 234) as well as in multiple other hadith:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/004.sbt.html

Not everyone buys the spiel of having to learn the original language in which a text was supposedly `revealed`. You do not find typically find lay Christians queueing up to learn Hebrew and Syriac and Hellenistic Greek in order to intelligently discuss and critique their religion; they are generally content to rely on authorized translations of the bible with footnotes explaining the nuanced readings of controversial words or passages.

{Now you know what i mean by ``Bhraman convulsion..``}

All these futile contortions, frantic excuses, irrelevant digressions on cow urine - but no real attempt to defend your original position arguing for restricting freedom of speech.

Ali87 #327

{Now the fact is that there are many people who oppose what they dont like but at the same time appreciate what they find good in Islam..

The likes of you do not fall in the category which there is much discussion or explanation that can take place because you are the kind who hold only hatred and want to propogate it. ...}

More likely, the only `discussion` and `explanation` you have in mind is one where you have the whip hand, where the other party sees the supposed necessity of accepting your point of view, no matter how untenable. You are correct in divining that I`m unreceptive to mullah brainwash in regard to restrictions on freedom of speech.

{So we are Aware of your strategies no feeling of presecution here.. c`mon this is a faceless discusion board...}

Very good - if this is a faceless discussion board - DEBATE THE ISSUES ON THEIR MERITS. Don`t try to wriggle out of a debate by typecasting your faceless opponent as a `Brahmin` or `Pandit` on the basis of nonexistent evidence. Arguments have no race or nationality or religion or caste. If your arguments are sound, they should stand on their own merit - even if your opponent is a `Pandit.` That you shy away from a debate indicates that you have no argument.

{So Pandit take your slokhas elsewhere here people understand your language....}

You seem to have a delusional fixation on Brahmins/Pandits, apparently on other boards as well. Supposedly there is an evil conspiracy afoot to humiliate you, masterminded by the vengeful Brahmins of the RSS. That is why I characterised it as persecution mania. I used to see this demonisation of brahmins very often from Pakistanis, a product of their education system, far less frequently from Indian Muslims. It parallels that other laughable fixation with Israel and evil scheming Jews.

{What you are decribing is what you feel ... With 80% hindus vs 12 percent muslims you should not be shivering in your boots. Now make that 4% bhramins and you begin to see the sense...}

You make me laugh - projecting your pathetic persecution complex on your opponents. I`m sorry to disturb your paranoid delusions, but I suspect that a survey may actually find Brahmins to be on the whole more liberal in their attitudes to Muslims than Hindus at large.

Anyway, still more desperate evasions and excuses but no attempt to argue your original position. A most impressive performance!

#326 by AlephNull on December 23, 2002 2:42pm PT

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This prodigy apparently does not suspect that I may not be a Hindu, let alone a Pandit
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Possiblilty: yes ,chances: very little in the context of the posts by the Pandit.


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I have better things to do with my time than learn the uncouth tongue of barbaric Bedouin nomads in order to read alleged `revelations`

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HEY GUYS READ WHAT HE WROTE IN HIS EARLIER POST...

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I would fish out my well-thumbed volumes of Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim or whatever and point to the hadith where the Prophet Mohammed advises....
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Now you know what i mean by ``Bhraman convulsion..``

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The implication here is that any opponent of the mullah worldview has to be affiliated with or sympathetic to the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal or allied organization..

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Now the fact is that there are many people who oppose what they dont like but at the same time appreciate what they find good in Islam..

The likes of you do not fall in the category which there is much discussion or explanation that can take place because you are the kind who hold only hatred and want to propogate it. Sepcious arguments while looking civil and reasonable are just a vehicle of your hatred.


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Blah-blah-blah. Now we are treated to a risible display of persecution mania

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So we are Aware of your strategies no feeling of presecution here.. c`mon this is a faceless discusion board...

What you are decribing is what you feel ... With 80% hindus vs 12 percent muslims you should not be shivering in your boots. Now make that 4% bhramins and you begin to see the sense...

So Pandit take your slokhas elsewhere here people understand your language....

Ali87 #323

{Now some may say that I dont want to argue point with counter point on a particular topic.}

They would be justified in saying so. You started out saying that Isioma Daniel and Rushdie ought to have been arrested or handed over to Muslims for `justice`. Since then you haven`t come up with a single cogent argument to defend these positions - just a torrent of unattributed cut-and-paste and now frantic excuses for not arguing. You wouldn`t be attempting all manner of diversionary tactics, bringing up irrelevanices such as cow-urine and outright trying to turn tail if you had even the semblance of an argument on your side.

{However the issue here is not what it seems.}

Nice attempted cop-out. Let us examine what justification this savant provides:

{The RSS , VHP,Bajrang Dal, BJP etc are part of the same fabric which once ruled India a small minority of ruthless selfseekers who will take any guise accept any argument, change any colsely held belif as long it gives them the power to dominate and control.

They look for emotive issues and try to buldoze many who are vunerable against what they consider the largest soucre of their defeat in the 14 th and 15 centuries ie the muslims.}

Blah-blah-blah. Now we are treated to a risible display of persecution mania. The implication here is that any opponent of the mullah worldview has to be affiliated with or sympathetic to the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal or allied organization. He could not conceivably be a non-Hindu.

Ali87 #322

{Typical Bhraman convulsion.}

{Now why did not bother to reply to your inane tirade?? Because it is typical Pandit speak!!}

{Anyway a specious argument which is neither new or clever either. (what else can you expect from a Pandit-- when will he realise those days are gone forever.)}

This prodigy apparently does not suspect that I may not be a Hindu, let alone a Pandit.


Ali87 #322

{Characterstics and belif of a Mullah: One who belives all humans are equal.}

And in the same breath demands special treatment for Muslims. And don`t even get me started on Islam-ordained second-class status for women and non-Muslims.

{One who insists that all read arabic and read for him self what the Quran says and understand it for himself. Proof is millions of Muslims read Quran in the language it was revealed.}

I have better things to do with my time than learn the uncouth tongue of barbaric Bedouin nomads in order to read alleged `revelations`.

{Any one can become a mullah.}

Thanks, but no thanks.

More on the freedom of Speech and how some wish it is practiced

The Documentary that they didn`t like

By: Dr. Aslam Abdullah
Iviews* -


http://iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0212-1811

The well-known Islam-hater, Daniel Pipes, is very angry with PBS for airing the documentary on Prophet Muhammad during the Christmas season. In an article published in a local edition of the conservative webzine Human Events and the New York Post the pro-Israeli Mr. Pipes accuses the documentary of not being critical enough. Mr. Pipes, who is the director of Middle East Forum, writes that the film treats Muslim religious beliefs as historical facts and ignores ``an ongoing scholarly reassessment of Muhammad`s life.``

``Its patronizing film might be fine for an Islamic Sunday school class but not for a national audience, `` he writes. He calls for a public-interest lawsuit on behalf of taxpayers against the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB) ``both to address this week`s travesty and to win an injunction against any possible repetitions. It should be noted here that apart from CPB, the documentary has received the funding from several foundations and about 4,000 individuals. The donors include the Arabian Bulk Trading Ltd., the El-Hibri Foundation, the Sabadia Family Foundation, the David and Lucile Packard Foundation, the Irfan Kathwari Foundation and the Qureishi Family trust

Now some may say that I dont want to argue point with counter point on a particular topic. However the issue here is not what it seems.

What is the chance that this guys who pour forth their wisdom here are actually looking for a discussion?

Were they not aware of the various sides of the argument of ``Freedom of Speech`` Issue? Not likely. If that is so they why did they raise it? So that they can listen and analyse another point of view??

Hardly their agenda is different. Their only agenda is Muslim Bashing. Since that is the issue at play I much rather expose their agenda and tackle the real Issue.

The RSS , VHP,Bajrang Dal, BJP etc are part of the same fabric which once ruled India a small minority of ruthless selfseekers who will take any guise accept any argument, change any colsely held belif as long it gives them the power to dominate and control.

They look for emotive issues and try to buldoze many who are vunerable against what they consider the largest soucre of their defeat in the 14 th and 15 centuries ie the muslims.

At times they are the people who are for a different reading of History al Muarli Manohar Joshi at times they are Purverours of ``Freedom of speech`` any thing, any opportunity, any disguise is taken by them as long it serves their needs. Some times they succeed in their misson and when people realise their true nature they abandon them. Then they look for a new way to galvanise people. These people have no intention of discussing religion or Islam or giving a critique on muslim culture issues they are what they are Wolfs in sheeps clothing. the clothing takes shape of various issues some times it is ``Pesudo Secularism`` Some times it is the ``Netwons third law famously propunded by Modi`` Where they cant be blatant about their Intentions the choose to ``Freedom of Speech`` ``Jihadi mentality`` or what ever is convinent and avaliable.

Dont forget that US is the largest suppourt base of the VHP and RSS and the largest source of funds which enabled The Gujrat Experiment.

It is not to be confused that all Hindus are like that. But a cursury reading of the posts on chowk reaveal many of them are active here. There are Hindus who are respectful and considerate and I know many of them as friends and many others thorugh their opinoin about muslims and Islam. They dont always take the same view on many things as Muslims do but they dont have the agenda of Hatred.