Husain Haqqani at UC Berkeley

Ras- You are a great writer...I think in the tradition of Tagore. Pakistan Zindabad!

re:#34 by aqazi

``Its always interesting to hear the Indian point of view on things. Always championing the great cause of peace. Did it EVER occur to any of you BJP fundos that had it not been the imperial India imposing its will on Kashmiris and forcing them to subjugation, Pakistan would have probably been one of the strongest Indian ally???? ``
Ha, Ha, Ha. Thanks for the good laugh. You are either naieve or cunning.
The difference between India and pak is ideological coming out of 2 nation theory, of which Kashmir is only a sad and tragic manifestation. Nothing would change even if Kashmir problem were to be solved tomorrow to everyone`s satisfaction.

``If on one hand India accepts the creation of Pakistan, then by God, there`s no argument that can stand against Kashmir joining Pakistan.``
As Clinton said one time: 2 wrongs do not make a right.

``The only thing standing in the way of peace between the two countries is the big Bunya ego.``
Not really. Deep down in South, even Tamilians are saying it is good to kick some Paki A$$. You see, Kargil changed everything. It brought the ugly face of Paki Mujahideens into everyone`s drawing rooms.
``Think of what Mahatma Gandhi would say about Kashmir.``
Gandhi defended the GOI`s action in Kashmir in 1947. If you do not believe me, do some research.
My advice to you: stop blabbering like a fool.
Sridhar

pmishra2 #64
I just realised that I infact am a baniya as charged and perhaps you are a brahmin.. Need any thing more be said? :)

nawaid #62
PS: No I am not defending BJP at all costs. I support the Central govt.(in which BJP is the main party)stand on J&K and Pakistan and I oppose BJP on Hindutva and in Gujarat.

sadna #64


You don`t get it do you? Every hindu is definitionally fascist. Every hindu has a secret commitment (``Protocol of the Elders of Hindutva``) to Bal Thackeray and Praveen Togadia. This is why there are no muslims left in India. Whereas in the land of the pure, the historically 20% hindu minority is now double that ! ooops, I meant 1/20th. But never mind...

nawaid #62
`defending BJP at any cost`

Huh? If jihadis come from Multan and Gujranwala, or if the Pakistani Army doesnot want to fight a war for Indian J&K, what does it have to do with the BJP and why am I accused of `defending the BJP `?

Sadhna#

[Its amazing that Pakistanis come all the way from Multan and Gujranwala to kill election candidates and participants in Jammu Kashmir without any interest in the elections IN Multan and Gujranwala. Its amazing you have no money for schools but there are a lot of donations for jihad. Noone in India thinks Pakistanis want Kashmiris `decide their own future`, because its land grab looking for a toehold. If Pakistanis feel so strongly about self determination, what prevents them from using their wonderful army and taking over Indian J&K and giving them the `right to decide their future`? No guts? }

amazing country? amazing people? of course as some one pointed out, its brain washing which is a result of Jalahat ......any way, i wanted to discuss the strategy of the India Govt, i never tried to defend Paksitan Army`s role here....but it seems that you are defending BJP at any cost because of interaction with a Paksitani......coz i read times of India daily and there Indians are quite critical of their Govt`s role but i dont think that going to come out on chowk............again, what i can see is too much obsession and importance for Pakistan.........

{Your comments about J&K CM Mufti`s interactions and even quarrels with the Central Goverment in Delhi demonstrate your ignorance about indian democracy and federalism. Such quarrels and give-and-take are completely part of the indian system. The states are quite powerful in their own domain and all CMs have these kinds of debates with the center. }

Mishra ji these debates are part of every democratic system, i was just wondering that it may be more appropriate if BJP can realise why Mufti Saheb released militants, of course its both its India`s internal politics and parties always fight.........and BJP should involve in more debates and qurrels with Gujrat Govt.

[There has been and will continue to be a huge impact on Pakistan of this policy. Jihadism and use of religous para-militaries have already led to huge impact on Pakistani economy. So, yes, certainly you can feel you have ``won`` --- India has to make such an effort to control these 2000-3000 trained islamist guerrillas ! Its large army cannot eliminate them. What a great victory ! But what have you ``won``? Not much, I am afraid]

India is asking for sanctions against Paksitan, sactions continued from MAY 1998 till 9/11....nothing much happned, Paksitan somehow survived...........do you think Paksitan army care about economy, i dont think so! and i dont think US going to attack Paksitan coz of infiltration in Kashmir. Any way, if all of you defending BJP Govt`s role here then i guess its one sided debate with no outcome.

By the way Mr. Haqqani was a leader of the Jamiat, the student wing of the Jamaat-i-Islami. He was the president of the Karachi University students union in the seventies.

Humsab #54:
[* Jinnah was an extremely intelligent man leading a secular, honest life. Do you think, he actually believed that he could use `muslim identity card` without getting into religious distinctiveness quagmire? ]
I think he actually believed it. The reason is simple. British have been doing it for 100 years by warming pockets of sufis, pirs, gaddi nasheens and mullahs. Next door in Afghanistan also this had been the standard procedure which Russians did not follow and paid the price.
In 1947 and before, Saudi Arabia and wahabiat had no influence. The deobandi movement did not have the teeth as they do now because of coldwar politics and Saudi influence. Jamaat-e-Islami was negligible in influence. All Jinnah had to do was to bribe sufis and pirs. As I said in the previous post, ML leadership outside UP and Bengal did not have leaders who could excite public like Bhutto. Either use religious card or face defeat in the all important election.
[* Secondly, most of Pakistani secular intelligentia believe that had Jinnah survived longer, Pakistan would have been different. Do you think, Jinnah would have been able to take U-turn after getting a country on the basis of religious identity even after giving that much quoted August speech? I believe after giving that idea of religious distinctiveness and rubbing that in vigorously for a few years, it would not have been possible for even Jinnah to chart a totally different course at the end. Here, the distinction between Jinnah and Nehru is that Nehru never used religious identity card. ]
Had Jinnah lived, he would have opted for cnstitution rather than elections because after split with most popular Bengali leader Suharwardi, ML would have lost in Bengal and in Punjab, Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan had to resort to same Muslim identity card against resurgent ethnic based leaders. Not much happened in Rawalpindi when Liaquat Ali Khan was assassinated overthere because ML was no longer popular. Jinnah would have proposed a secular constitution quickly alongwith warming pockets of religious figures to keep them quiet. He would have opted for acceptance of distinct native cultures and weaker center. He would have realized earlier the fatal potential of unity in oneness of everything important. sooner or later, he would have to go for election and TNT and its extensions would not have won him votes. He would have been forced to play politics local style.
Basically it was wrong to have two horse european style race in subcontinent. The local cultures and conditions demanded free for all race but British made it impossible for more than two horses. A race between many horses and localized would have delayed independence but possibly with better outcome. They should have given independence to Bengal and allowed ethno-nationalism to compete against Congress and ML for few years to get an idea for the rest of subcontinent. I bet at the end of the day, Bengali nationalism would have defeated both Congress and ML.

Anyone else catch Husain Haqqani on the CBS program ``Sixty Minutes``
last night? He seemed to make a lot of sense!

Ras

nawaid #53

Your comments about J&K CM Mufti`s interactions and even quarrels with the Central Goverment in Delhi demonstrate your ignorance about indian democracy and federalism. Such quarrels and give-and-take are completely part of the indian system. The states are quite powerful in their own domain and all CMs have these kinds of debates with the center. Of course, not all of them have to deal with 2000-3000 well funded and armed fanatics !

Finally, an insurgency that is supported by millions ($$$) in funding from Gulf States and Pakistani goverment is not going to easily die down. India is relatively open society (compared to its neighbors it is very open) and terrorists can penetrate it without great difficulty. To an extent this is true of the industrialized West as well. So, the continuation of violence in J&K mostly means that the stupid people funding the extremists havent yet given up, just as attacks on WTC and western toursist demonstrates that well-organized murderers will always find victims.

There has been and will continue to be a huge impact on Pakistan of this policy. Jihadism and use of religous para-militaries have already led to huge impact on Pakistani economy. So, yes, certainly you can feel you have ``won`` --- India has to make such an effort to control these 2000-3000 trained islamist guerrillas ! Its large army cannot eliminate them. What a great victory ! But what have you ``won``? Not much, I am afraid.

Here is a small sample of the fall-out:

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=274117

Exporters were expecting an increase in demand in 2001 to $42 million from $20-25 million in 2000, but under present conditions, exports were predicted to range between $16-17 million. Over 70 per cent of exports are destined for the US.

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nawaid #various

If Pakistanis donot get to decide about their own futures, and didnot let the Afghans `decide their own futures` noone pays attention to them lecturing Indians on what to do about other Indians such as Jammu- Kashmiris. If Pakistan had genuinely wanted Kashmiris to decide their futures, they wouldnot have initiated war in 1948, then refused to implement terms of referendum later, then attacked Kashmir in 1965 and then signed Simla agreement in 1971. Later after 1989, if Pakistanis wanted Kahsmiris to decide their future, Pakistanis wouldnot have suppressed the independence-minded Kashmiris, killed Kashmiri moderates including Hindus and injected Afghan veterans into the struggle.

Its amazing that Pakistanis come all the way from Multan and Gujranwala to kill election candidates and participants in Jammu Kashmir without any interest in the elections IN Multan and Gujranwala. Its amazing you have no money for schools but there are a lot of donations for jihad. Noone in India thinks Pakistanis want Kashmiris `decide their own future`, because its land grab looking for a toehold. If Pakistanis feel so strongly about self determination, what prevents them from using their wonderful army and taking over Indian J&K and giving them the `right to decide their future`? No guts?


You also need to apply yourself more to Indian news. The Mufti was being blamed for indirectly increasing violence by releasing militants. To which his government and Sonia Gandhi replied that militants were released only after checking with the intelligence community.

Yashwant Sinha himself didnot blame Mufti, he even said its too early to judge the performance of the Mufti government. BJP did create a noise about Mufti releasing militants to embarrass Sonia Gandhi and the Cong before the Gujarat elections, but in its Gujarat campaign it is also holding up the successful elections and change of government in J&K as a BJP achievement. It is an achievement, but doesnot mean people will refrain from criticising their political opponents. Thats the way democracy works.

I watched Yashwant Sinha in Hardtalk too, btw, where he denied a BJP role in the Gujarat riots. That shameful part came in the end of a good interview of which you seem to have conveniently forgotten everything else he said, including about being grateful for only one of WTC falling and hence holding talks with Osama.

The US can now sympathise with Indian complaints of infiltration to/from Pakistan because it keeps appearing in the Western press how they are having the same problem with Taliban/Al Qaeda on your western borders in Afghanistan.

SameerJB # 43

First of all, thanks for such an informative piece. You are walkiing encycleopedia on most of the subjects.
I agree with your analysis but can you throw some light on following points:-

* Jinnah was an extremely intelligent man leading a secular, honest life. Do you think, he actually believed that he could use `muslim identity card` without getting into religious distinctiveness quagmire?

* Secondly, most of Pakistani secular intelligentia believe that had Jinnah survived longer, Pakistan would have been different. Do you think, Jinnah would have been able to take U-turn after getting a country on the basis of religious identity even after giving that much quoted August speech? I believe after giving that idea of religious distinctiveness and rubbing that in vigorously for a few years, it would not have been possible for even Jinnah to chart a totally different course at the end. Here, the distinction between Jinnah and Nehru is that Nehru never used religious identity card.

Whatever I have written above that should not give any idea that Cogress or majority community of India was not responsible for 1947. That issue is historically different.
But what I want to stress is that Pakistani public should open up and start looking at their one and only one icon Jinnah also critically without getting emotional. This has happened in India more that a decade ago and Nehru and Gandhi are no longer considered infallible. This has no way reduced their respect in public mind.

This particular article by Ishtiaq Ahned, I liked because not many Pakistani try to tread this path. And then Ishtiaq Ahmed does believe in genuine peace in the sub-continent.

arjun_m#51
+++That logic obviously didnt apply whe Pakistan GIFTED away part of Kashmir to China. +++++

ok, here i dont get it... may be you can explain as i am not here to fight or calling names, ........................so Kashmiri ppl have no right to choose their future because Pakistan Army done something wrong in past................how that make sense!

and again one thing i never get it, it will be really helpful for me if someone can give me some info on that, what is strategy of Indian Govt`s here.........what is the capibility of Indian Army? when Paksitan were gifting Kashmir what Indian Army was doing to protect its Kashmir? `` we cant stop infiltration Please USA and western world ask Paksitan to stop infiltration............it seems that Paksitan is controling the region..............i heard that its more then 500,000 army in Jammu? How people cross LOC if that much troops are in border....Indian spending million of Dollars on what?

either Indian army is really hopeless or its really a freedom struggle which cant be controlled.

May be its not Indian Army`s fault, one day PM visits troops at border and asked Jawans to be ready as time has come for final fight.....second day suddenly something happens and sky become clear, third day PM feels that he is very tired should go on vacations at HamachalPerdesh.....excellent moral boosting technique.........................

nawaid #49

[quote]
.....you people seem more obssesed to Paksitan then Pakistani to Kashmir.
[end-quote]

The day Pakistan stops funding mass murderers in J&K, it will dissapear of the screen in India. Growing up in the 60s and 70s, I barely recall a discussion about Pakistan (70-71 is an exception).

But then creation of jihad is the only successful Pakistani export ! How can you abandon it! Only when the stick is shown and complete banruptcy arrives ! Don`t worry, post Iraq both of these eventualities will ariive.

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#48 by sadna

[If you go to a neutral person who is not backward and doesnot know anything about Pakistani history, what will be his answer, obviously let the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan decide the Kashmir and India policy not the military-mullah complex}


absloutly right so now we both agree on one point which is unbiased and nuteral from both sides tht

Pakistani Elected PM should decide Kashmir policy and Parliment should complete the term and...

Kashmiri ppl have right to decide their future.

[And he will say stop trying to sabotage the elected government in J&K]

again very true! i am not sure about Paksitani army`s capibility on this, if they are that much capable then, India has to do a lot of work, after all they more then 500,000 army in JK....second the same advice should be given to BJP govt, who seems to be blaming Mufti Saeed and Congress Govt for recent attacks....and Yashwant Sinha was of he opinion that he has every right to criticise Kasmiri Govt of Mufti on these attacks, but when asked about the performance of BJPs own Govt in Gujrat , then blamed Paksitan for riots.

47 by mohar11#

{And then - hold a referendum in POK and see what those Kashmiris ( whatever is left of them ) want. Also the Balochis and Sindhis are not too happy the Punjabi Army treats them!! Get a self-determination going there too.}

i think if its goes with UN resoloution then refrendum for whole Kashmir including POK, who knows, may be they choose INDIA.

{Also the Balochis and Sindhis are not too happy the Punjabi Army treats them!! Get a self-determination going there too.}

Punjabi army badly treated Bengali people and they are not with Paksitan now! regarding Sindhi, Balochi...no such movement of self determination is on so.....i dont know what you are talking.........and are you admiting that as Sindhi and Balochi are not happy wiht army, Kashmiri are also not happy with Indian army.

[You have got a lot of ``self-determination`` jobs to do man. Indian Kashmir is least of your problems.]

you are right, kashmir is only a problem for Paksitan army and not of general pakistani public...but by looking all this storm of hate messages it seem small, backward and full of clowns country Pakistan is really causing a pian in the ass for such a big and regional superpower India.....you people seem more obssesed to Paksitan then Pakistani to Kashmir.

nawaid #46
``obviously `` why fighting, let the Kashmiri people to decide``.

If you go to a neutral person who is not backward and doesnot know anything about Pakistani history, what will be his answer, obviously let the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan decide the Kashmir and India policy not the military-mullah complex.

He will also say, let the elected Parliament and government of Pakistan complete one full term without being dismissed.

And he will say stop trying to sabotage the elected government in J&K.

But for this you need a neutral person not someone who claims Pakistan is a frontline ally.

#46 by nawaid
//...Untill and unless we pakistani beleive that Kashmiris dont want to come with Pakistan, weather backward clowns or not we all going to continue supporting their right of self determination...//

First try to get the right to ``self-determination`` for yourself - Mushy`s ``guided democracy`` is big load of c**p heaped on you guys. First clean that mess.

And then - hold a referendum in POK and see what those Kashmiris ( whatever is left of them ) want. Also the Balochis and Sindhis are not too happy the Punjabi Army treats them!! Get a self-determination going there too.

And what about that piece of Kashmir you gave out China? Go ask the chinese for ``self-determination`` for their part of Kashmir and see what happens!

You have got a lot of ``self-determination`` jobs to do man. Indian Kashmir is least of your problems.

wow! all these messages from Indian fellows are great:

by all this i get the idea tht Kashmir is never ending story for both countries...obviously there are factor both sides who want this issue to b alive for their personal intrests................India will not agree for refrendum and Pakistan will not stop infiltration even on US pressure, in recent month attacks on temple and civilians increased and now US denying Paksitan involvement in those events......One option of war and recapture Pakistani side of Kashmir already lost by Indian Govt...may b any Indian bro can explain to me what was Mr Vajpayee`s strategy by first threating Pakistan for war and then after realising that Pakistan is not going to be threat like that, withdrawing of troops. Its like they dont know Pakistan Army? or may be Govt couldnt handle the US pressure. Every second day Mr Advani, Berjesh Mehra and others keep crying on Pakistan interference and govt of Mufti Saeed. Mr Advani weekly issue a threat to Pakistan, i am not sure now how many Indians take those threats serioulsy as Pakistanis already dont like Advani & Company, so who give a damn what old man is saying weekly.

Regarding Pakistanis to listen Husain Haqqani, it dosent matter how much telented he is, no one take him seriously because of his past role in NS and BB govt, he played a key role in all Paksitan`s proprganda (realted to Kashmir) serving as advisor for information for both PMs and mostly know as `` LOTA`` for switiching sides.......and who knows, if he joined Govt now, his all intelecualism disappears in a minute. If you just look it the replies to this article, out of 45 not even 20% replies from Paksitanies, as i said ,not many ppl think of Haqani as genuine person.

Regarding backwardness of Pakistanis, no doubt in that.....but when it comes to Pakistan, its also not in your gene to except any argument from any Pakistani, and same goes with a normal pakistani. If you go to a netural person who is not backward and dont know anything about Kashmir history and you tell him about dispute, what will be his answer, obviously `` why fighting, let the Kashmiri people to decide``.

So with all you open and broad mindness you are not going to accept the right of kasmiri people to decide, although i dont think, Kashmiri people are stupid enough to choose mess like Paksitan. On the other side if Kashmiri really want to go with Paksitan, then this thing will never end. Any way, Pakistani Govt choose the path of infiltration to obtain Kashmir not realising damage to its economy and world image.....and Indian Govt choose the path to protect Kashmir by spending million of dollars and lost of valuable human lives.

Untill and unless we pakistani beleive that Kashmiris dont want to come with Pakistan, weather backward clowns or not we all going to continue supporting their right of self determination. Some of us choose the way of Jihad and some just keep posting messages coz how much intelectual i am, i dont understand the theory that Kashmiri cant decide their future coz they might choose Pakistan.

#44 hari

You are completely missing the point! No one except muslims have any problems in the world.!

More seriously, here we have people lecturing us on Kashmir, and when I point out that my mothers entire extended family has been ``cleansed`` from the Kashmir valley, they just keep up their nonsensical prattle. My extended family, being non-muslim, does not exist. They may have lived in J&K for god knows how many years, but these clowns will simply ignore the whole issue. Why? I think the answer is obvious.

We are dealing here with a backward-looking culture of grievance. A culture in which the long-ago age of ``islamic supremacy`` is to be worshipped and recalled, especially in its military aspects. Nothing else matters.

Certainly, there are also indians who are also trapped in the past. But the depth and extent of the Pakistani delusion is truly remarkable.

What can be done? Not much. Just as the marxist world view could only be contained and defeated over a long time, the islamic supremacist world view will have to be dealt with the same way. Firm security, an open society and a forward looking orientation is the only long-term answer to these folks. In the short term, of course, they will continue to kill and maim a lot of us folks.

#34 by aqazi

the problem with Pakistan`s claim to Kashmir or for that matter Islamic claim to Palestine, chechnia, indonesia is this:

the islamists want to convert all these places as ``islamic countries`` at the expense of NON-MUSLIM NATIVES.

It never occurs to the islamists that there are Kashmiri buddhists, kashmiri hindus, kashmiri sikhs. A kashmiri non-muslim may not want to live as a ``dhimmi`` under an islamic constitution. What if a kashmiri hindu
wants his ``own`` self-determinaiton to have the valley carved into a
``hindu`` land. If a kashmiri non-muslim uses this arguement, then all the
islamists immediately talk about ``islamic tolerance`` or that Kashmiri
hindus can live peacefully in Islamic kashmir. Bull Sh$t.
kashmiri hindus or for that matter kashmiri non-muslims can only live as
2nd class citizens. For all those who say, it won`t happen, look at
Pakistan, Bangladesh. These countries started as ``people`s republic`` at the time of independence, then slowly converted into ``islamic republics``, which means, a Pakistani non-muslim cannot aspire to become that country`s prime minister, president.

For all who say, that Abdul kalam is a dummy president, then my answer is please have a ``token/dummy`` non-muslim as Pakistan`s president?
Is it possible?

Finally the western world have understood the islamic thinking. that is why Turkey is not getting admitted to EC.

Islamists are self-centered. They talk about Kashmiri, chechnia, bosnia self determination; have you ever heard Musharraf or any islamic despot or leader talk about ``tibetian, taiwanese`` self-determination, or southern sudanese christian, southern nigerian christian, southern algerian christian self-determination aspiration? the answer is a BIG NOOO>>>>

president Bush went to the DC mosque to give greetings to muslims after
ramadan! Has the Saudi King, Musharraf visited hindu temples to greet
hindus or for that matter buddhists, christians for their diwalis, christmas,
buddha jayanthi. the answer is NOO>>>>

This is a response to Humsab from another board. It is a feedback about an article that was published in the last week TFT regarding role of religious parties in Pakistani politics. Rest must ignore it, if they can.
Humsab: Ishtiaq Ahmed is a specialist in the area of `role of Islamic parties in the creation and later in the politics of Pakistan. He is of the same caliber like Ayesha Jalal, progressive historian Sheikh Mubarak Ali and lesser known Yunus Samad. As an academician abroad (University of Stockholm, Sweden), he has the liberty to speak his opinion more clearly than living in Pakistan.
Jinnah and Nehru were politicians than freedom fighters. In addition to leading their parties to independence from colonialism, they were shrewd politicians like modern western politicians who believe in the rule of law, do not involve in corruption but winning is the most important thing. For Jinnah, without using TNT meant losing the political game for his party, Muslim League. There was no way of winning in the apolitical Punjab and Sindh without charging up the atmosphere using religious sensitivities.
They tried Muslim identity card without Islam during late thirties and early forties but were defeated badly by the local alliances of feudal, tribal, businessmen and ethno-nationalists. Losing Punjab and Sindh in 1946 election meant Pakistan based in Dhaka or former East Pakistan only.
Nobody exactly know what Jinnah compromised with powerful Sir Sikander Hayat, off the record during Jinnah-Sikander accord but untimely death of Sir Sikander Hayat Khan, left Jinnah-Sikander accord on the record only.
Unionist in the hand of weak Khizar Hayat Tiwana, separate electorate for Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs were not sufficient to win over apolitical Muslim vote in Panjab. Muslim voters have to be brought out to vote and Muslim league did not exist outside cities. Most of the population, more so than today lived in villages and only local leaders could influence them. The local, turncoats from Unionists, leader could not make a case to public just like recently turncoats could not make a case for Musharraf. It was difficult because these leaders had very friendly (brotherly) relationship with local Sikh and Hindus on personal level and asking Muslims to vote for expelling them soon. In this situation, Muslim League had to rely on pirs, gaddi nasheens, mutwallis and local mullahs who were either not as cosy with non-Muslims or saw it as religious duty above personal interests.
The religious element helped Muslim Laeague through charging up the atmosphere on religious grounds whose consequences were terrible. Perhaps Jinnah knew the consequences but the other option for him was losing Punjab. Prior to election, Jinnah was resisting Islamic group with Punjab Muslim league, leftover from Pakistan National Movement (PNM) headed by Ch. Rehmat Ali. This group once had Allama Iqbal among its supporters. They wanted politically Islamic state after independence whereas Jinnah wanted secular Islamic. Had Jinnah accepted PNM stand during thirties, ML might not have needed pirs and gaddi nasheens to win and with both Iqbal and Ch. Rehmat Ali gone in 1947, he could have steered Pakistan to secularism. But once pandora box of pirs, mullahs and gaddi nasheens was open, they could not be put back in place.
Anyway, in 1946 elections, voter turn out was still lower for Muslims than Hindus and Sikhs but ML won most of the Muslim seats. Unfortunately this being the end, it was the beginging.
The Unionists with only ten seats, like PPP forward block, were able to muster support from Congress and Akali Party and formed Panjab government with ML in opposition. Khizar Hayat Tiwana got the vote of confidence from Panjab Assembly. This was very dangerous scenario for Muslim League. Independence was around the corner and their crown jewel, Panjab was in the hands of opponents. In January 1947, ML announced agitation against Tiwana government to bring him down as quickly as possible. Mere call for strike or demonstrations would not do it because democratically Tiwana enjoyed majority support in the assembly. The assembly had to be dismissed according to ML plans and that required more serious law and order situaltion. Knowing extreme unhappiness of Sikhs being left out of power game, inciting Muslim-Sikh clashed was the best solution. As usual the consequence were worse than original plan of using the pretext of communalism to bring down Tiwana government. The Muslim League thought that Tiwana will be held responsible for not being able to control the situation but Tiwana realizing the ML game plan and his personal ego, resigned unilaterally without consulting even his cabinet and coalition partners. The Muslim League succeeded but could not pass on the blame to Tiwana and left alone to take the blame.
In this situation, the support of ML went down in Panjab in general but increased in religiously charged segment becaue now ML justifies its actions as Islamic duty. From now on Muslim league had to always rely on pirs, gaddi nasheens, mutwallis, mullahs and feudal to win in Panjab all the way to last rigged elections of October 10, 2002. The word Muslim League is roughly alien to Panjabis.
The day Pakistan was created, Panjab gave a deserted look. Few hundred people in Lahore and Rawalpindi and numbering less than hundred i other cities came out with candle light and flag waving celebrations of independence on August 14, 1947. The biggest event of the century turned out to be a non-event, not because any yearning for united India but for apolitical folks to go through all this because of Sherwani-clad masters sitting in Lahore, Delhi or Bombay taking decisions to win at all cost, at their expense.
Humsab, you might do a google search for Ishtiaq Ahmed and read more of his writings. Sorry for the delay.

qusman1 #37
India is a multi-religious country. Just because whiny Pakistanis like you keep insisting (for lack of anything better to do, apparently), even long after you got your nation that `obstinate` Indians should believe in TNT, doesnot mean I will tell my Muslim neighbours that we cannot live together in one country because Pakistanis hate Hindus.

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#37 qusman1

I have no interest in taking a person like you seriously. Any guy who believes that a 1000 years ago a new nation was created in India (the nation concept was invented in Europe between 1400-1600!) suffers from complete and total historical illiteracy. I would advise you to read the muslim historians of the invading armies to understand the reality of what happened in North India a thousand years ago. You may get a little surprise there....

The rest of your message is an attempt to somehow to ``equalize`` india and pakistan. It consists of drivel about indians being hated here and there. Who cares about silly stuff like that? Which large and relatively powerful country is not disliked/resented by its neighbors?

The day indian terrorists kill a 1000 pakistanis in Pakistan, I will agree that the two countries are ``equivalent``. The day I see middle-class indians support the use of suicide bombers to injure a neighboring country is the day I will agree that the two are the same. Needless to say that will never happen. Till then you can live in your phantasy world....

re: aqazi

{I know enough Indians to know that deep down inside they all know how wrong it is for India to occupy Kashmir.}

...i know enough pakistanis to know that deep down inside they all know how wrong it is to send terrorists to other countries to steal land that does not belong to pakistan...

qusman1 #37
India is a multi-religious country. Just because whiny Pakistanis like you keep insisting (for lack of anything better to do, apparently), even long after you got your nation that `obstinate` Indians should believe in TNT, doesnot mean I will tell my Muslim neighbours that we cannot live together in one country because Pakistanis hate Hindus.

More on Kashmir etc.

Mes chers pmishra and company: What I was trying to explain was not so hard: LeT and JeM APPARENTLY do a lot of bad things in Kashmir. The Indian army also APPARENTLY does atrocious things in Kashmir. To my knowledge, conflicting propaganda and the conditions in Kashmir have not allowed much objective truth to come out.

==>You are all too well conditioned to see the `phoren hand` everywhere, but how about allowing yourself some more space and seeing a `bharatya hand` as well?

If you do the latter, Pakis (or at least some of us) will take you more seriously. Otherwise, just as you have built-in mechanisms to discount the `Others` as lying criminals, so do we `Mlecchas` vis-a-vis you. Goes back a long way! After all the two nation theory insists Pakistan really came about 1000 years ago, no? And Bangladeshis hate you just as much!

Also, just as not all hindus who take their faith seriously are violent rioteers, not all madrassah students are going to bite you. So my sympathies if you are disturbed by images of several million madrassah students coming to get you. Again, I can`t prove this but perhaps only 10-15% of madrassahs in Pakistan would be the kind you won`t like if you met them. Still enough to breed a lot of deranged young men though.

So anyway, please go on posting, venting it out as much as you please. But do realize that you will gain quite a bit by being less gullible and obstinate.

aqazi #34
I wasn`t championing the cause of peace, I was answering your lament about Indians on chowk. I have no interest in peace with someone who calls me a BJP fundo and baniya because I am Hindu.

aqazi #34

Coming from a background that includes extended family who have been ``cleansed`` from Kashmir, I find your rant laughable and hypocritical. I have spent many months in Kashmir and my mother was born in Srinagar. I am well aware how the Kashmiri drive for good goverment and autonomy was converted to a ``jihad``. And without shame you support the murder of civilians, children and pilgrims while giving us a lecture on human rights !

BTW, we hear ``freedom`` has arrived in Pakistan. Enjoy ! And if someone in your family or circle of friends has a problem because of freedom dont forget to think of the ``root cause`` ! I am sure it will bring you a lot of joy.

Its always interesting to hear the Indian point of view on things. Always championing the great cause of peace. Did it EVER occur to any of you BJP fundos that had it not been the imperial India imposing its will on Kashmiris and forcing them to subjugation, Pakistan would have probably been one of the strongest Indian ally????

Funny how the BJP fundos always zoom in on ``Paki terrorists this, Paki terrorists that`` without looking at the root cause of the issue. Does it not occur to ANY hindu fundo that if the Kashmiris have been begging for their independence/merger with Pakistan, then maybe they should let them go?

If on one hand India accepts the creation of Pakistan, then by God, there`s no argument that can stand against Kashmir joining Pakistan. According to the logic of seperation of the two states, Kashmir is an Integral part of Pakistan. And please, dont bother giving me the great Maharajah`s decision of joining India speech, because we all know what happened to that same logic with Nizam of Hyderabad.

I know enough Indians to know that deep down inside they all know how wrong it is for India to occupy Kashmir. The only thing standing in the way of peace between the two countries is the big Bunya ego. Its as simple as that.

So Sadna and crew, please understand that everything beyond the basics is jibrish. You lament Kargil, we lament the past 56 years of desecration of humanity at the hands of Indian occupation forces. Respect the wish of the Kashmiris and you will find no other country to support your superpower dreams than Pakistan. Go back and see what even your own dear Nehru said about the Kashmiris and the promise he made to them. Think of what Mahatma Gandhi would say about Kashmir. If he agreed to the creation of Pakistan, however begrudingly, then dont you think he would be the first person to say that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. Once you accept the premise of Pakistan, then the answer is obvious.

...great...another pak-india hiss fight...

faisulano #31

Let me get this straight: you are suggesting that one of your revered religous days should be attached to acts of violence and murder in India? Is that what your faith means to you?

And I am the hindu hate monger? heh, heh, you must really need help.

Hindu hatemongers, eid mubarak.

PWG naxals blow up police station at Veldurti

PTI[ FRIDAY, DECEMBER 06, 2002 01:39:26 PM ]

GUNTUR: Naxals of outlawed People`s War Group (PWG) blew up an abandoned police station building at Veldurti village in Guntur district early on Friday, police said here.


About ten armed naxals planted gelatin sticks around the dilapidated building and detonated them, causing the old building to collapse, they said.


The building was unoccupied as the police force of the station had been shifted three months ago to a new building with bunkers and electric fencing.

qasman 16,

``On Paksitani streets, Lashkar e Tayyaba and others claim that they _only_ despatch Indian army scoundrels to hell. And this is to protect Kashmiris. This is hard to prove or disprove for me.``

You are the quentessential typical pakistani. You accept the idea that individual pakistanis can kill others as long as they are not innocent. Like tahmed and temporal, you cannot accept the idea that there is something barabaric about the pakistanis rushing out of the 200,000 madrasis with only one motive, to searcj and kill the non-innocents. These biped killing machines, so widely accepted and supported by one and all of the pakistanis is the source of islamic terror. These search out for the weapons, travel far and wide with one single aim, to kill and get killed. Kasi went to the US, several others went to kenya, thousand throng to kashmir, many more attack the red fort and the indian parlement, one aim, to kill and get killed to find a reserved place in heaven.

I have no difficulty in accepting the pak idea, bu pl spare me the ideas of human rights, pl stop talking about palestine. Pakistan as a land created for islam has attracted many from all over the world, in kasmir itself jihadists from more than ten countries have gone to the reserved heavens. But spare me the tag of paki hater, when you have an entire nation thriving on killing kafirs, of course the non-innocent variety.

It is a tragedy that even an educated pakistani cannot accept the idea of individuals turned into biped killing automatoms through a system of education is out of step with the modern times. Bring on the disy cutters to send them enmasse to heavens.

WORLD OF MUSHY
``I want the Indian team to visit Pakistan and entertain the public here. I am all for keeping sports and politics separate,`` Musharraf told visiting ICC president Malcolm Gray late on Thursday, the Pakistan Cricket Board said in a statement. mUSHY ADDED THAT KILLING OF NON-INNOCENT HINDUS AS A RELIGIOUS DUTY SHOULD NOT AFFECT INDO=PAK RELATIONS.
Over to you qusman 16

Qusman, aqazi etc
I wouldn`t be on chowk interacting with Pakistanis if it hadn`t been for Kargil and the coup. This unwanted consequence is part of the same famous `internationalisation` of the Kashmir issue which people keep crowing about wrt Kargil. It did indeed succeed in bringing the Kashmir issue to the attention of the international community, which however also included that part of international community which lives in India ie Indians like myself. Its hard to now say, sshhh we didn`t mean YOU. As the Vicks ad says Ab Bhugtho.

#22 qusman

Thanks for your inane and patronizing blather (not to speak of your ignorance of the use of irony!).

You still didn`t answer my question: as you seem to find reports like ``Freedom Fighters kill 7 in Wedding Party`` (actual headline from DAWN) acceptable you must fall into one of two categories:

Are you a person with genuine mental disabilities or a shameless hypocrite. Which one is it? We would all like to learn the truth.

#23 aqazi

I think people can read our respective messages and decide which one of us is a foul-mouthed hate monger. You may get a surprise if you ask a friend.

# 22 #23

What Pakistanis have been doing doesnt concern just the `BJP style fundo hate mongerers` or `privileged castes`.

One more Pakistani gift to India.

Thursday, 5 December, 2002, 15:57 GMT
Politician killed in Kashmir


Police in Indian-administered Kashmir say suspected militants have killed a prominent pro-India political activist, Ghulam Mohiuddin Lone.
They say he was shot dead outside his home in the district of Kupwara.

Mr Lone was a brother of a former law minister in the state government, Mushtaq Ahmed Lone, who was also assassinated at an election rally in September this year.

Ghulam Mohiuddin Lone gained prominence in 1996 when he, along with some other militant leaders, initiated a dialogue with the Indian Government on the Kashmir issue.

No group has so far admitted killing him.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service

A one star effort marred by a couple of serious typos.

Enjoyed the feedback.

Haqqani Sahib is a civilian and a political personality so the attacks by our very own Khaki fans are not surprising.

I did not mention Mrs. Haqqani. Both husband and wife are extremely
talented.

Ras

Mr. ``P`` Mishra (Could the P stand for Pimpdaddy?) :)
I can picture you foaming at the mouth while writing the emails. Im sure there are plenty of Indian sites where this kind of destructive citicizm and BJP style fundo hate mongering is appreciated. From what I can tell, Chowk is for enlightened discussions.
By you and the other fellow (Arjun_m, cant really say what the ``m`` stands for, but could it be a hyphenated word?) seem hell bent on being the Indian govt`s mouth-pieces. Like you said, this is after all the internet, so learn to think objectively. Name calling went out of fashion back in 2nd grade.

So, much as I hate to become a mouthpiece for LeT and JeM, I should tell you that I`ve never heard any of their associates own up to anything wrong, not even like mistakenly killing innocent bystanders, certainly not pilgrims.

So they say that all the bad things happening in Kashmir are the work of India (read cunning h#*$&s). These evil infidels would gladly massacre some of their own to win propaganda points. Everyone knows that they have `renegade` militants in their pay.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I wish the complete neutralization and destruction of all the rascals creating mayhem in Kashmir-- Bania Army, Mad Mullah Intelligence, other rabid dogs, the whole lot!

pmishra2 #17 & #21

Well... No reason to bring your panicked nerves here either!

The only way you`ll unlearn your priveleged-caste nonsense is by LEARNING that you can`t convince any of us Pakis by refusing to change your discourse. Yeah but do keep posting as you please. One day we`ll get so tired that we`ll stop our misdeeds, you wish! ;-})

aqazi #20

Why are we here? Because you and your country is killing indians on a daily basis. Because you have funded murder and terror all over North India. Because Dawood Ibrahim, an indian mobster and criminal lives in Karachi and has been given a pakistani passport. Otherwise, we wouldn`t care if you and your sort vanished into a black hole overnight.

You see, unlike your pure homeland, the internet is exceedingly open and impure. It cannot be ethnically purified of kafirs like your country. It is full of evil indians and other impure mongrel type people. Get used to it!

Hussain Haqqani is yet another self proclaimed `enlightened Pakistani`. In Urdu, we call them `Thali kay Baingan`.
As for the Indians on writing on this site consistently, one would have to ask them the question that if they think Pakistan is obsessed with India, then why is it that its always the Indian crowding Pakistani sites to chime in with their opinions?

All the hatered that these Indians have is unbelievable. It has got to be a major inferiority complex that they are trying to overcome by constantly tell themselves that India is doing `great`. If having over 40% of the population living under the poverty line is doing well, then I guess India takes the cake!

````Haqqani was accused by Musharraf of blackmailing the govt, to become the New Minister for Information. When refused he turne dhis pen on them. I wonder how true that story is````(Zakk)

I wonder how true this story is -- Musharraf is blackmailing the govt, to become -- the President for Life...

Haqqani was accused by Musharraf of blackmailing the govt, to become the New Minister for Information. When refused he turne dhis pen on them. I wonder how true that story is?

[quote]
On Paksitani streets, Lashkar e Tayyaba and others claim that they _only_ despatch Indian army scoundrels to hell. And this is to protect Kashmiris. This is hard to prove or disprove for me.
[end-quote]

Sure, sure, whatever. Never mind that your newspapers are full of articles like ``Freedom Fighters Kill Seven in Wedding Party``. Or that dozens of children are killed in Kashmiri markets by grenades that miss their target. Or that many pilgrims are killed at religous sites.

I guess you are either a person with genuine mental disabilities or shameless hypocrite. Which one is it? We would all like to learn the truth.

jay #11

On Paksitani streets, Lashkar e Tayyaba and others claim that they _only_ despatch Indian army scoundrels to hell. And this is to protect Kashmiris. This is hard to prove or disprove for me.

However, my feeling is that they also kill suspected collaborators and harrass a lot of common people. From reading accounts of life in Kashmir, it seems like it`s an open season for all sorts of cut throats anyway, whether they are in uniform, wearing masks, pro-India, pro-Pak or pro-themselves. I would like to see them all neutralized or destroyed.

The Gujarat pogroms did not take place in the shadows. The perpetrators are clearly identifiable. The state machinery for bringing Modi and his thugs to justice exists. It is just prevented from functioning.

So please get out of this Pakistan/India rut!

hindu hai aik aankh mussalman doosree

the subcontinent NEEDS steroscopic vision to see the depth of the bright FUTURE accurately -- Pakistan and India HAVE to learn to live TOGETHER -- Kashmir or no Kashmir --

India may be ahead in some things..

Pakistan needs to BREED more Haqqanis -- to achieve the PARITY... as simple as that!

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#12 by ferozk

{Nice to know that people in Pakistan develop a common sense, once they are out of power. Pity that internationally acclaimed, self exiled, pundit of Pakistan could not offer the same advice to the two ministers, whom he served with no distinction.}

and he left NS soon as his Govt fell and joned BB for the same post..one of the major reason for switiching sides was having an affair with the sister of Naheed Khan (BB`s political secetary). He served as most effective propoganda machine for both BB and NS as inforamtion advisor..................and now he is showing his intelectualism:) good going! keep it up H:H ,

Ras,
It is encouraging to hear Haqqani`s comments. If it reflects the establishment`s thoughts in Islamabad, that would be great. The reality is that a pragmatic approach to Indo-Pak relations is a dire necessity for both nations. Most Indians I know are interested in economic development rather than warfare. I presume the same is true on your side of the border. After all, how long will we continue with our stupid rivalry ? Other countries, muslim or non-muslim, think we are nuts for doing this to ourselves.

empirical 7,

You are another typical pakistani. Those who are involved in killing in gujerat are crimainals according to the law. The laskers who parade their killings in pakistan are the heros, visited by millions. In everuy mosque, there is call for jihad, every street corners there are posters for jihad. There is no count of the pakistanis who have infiltrated to ins dia to be killed, the uncountables of pakistan.

I recognise that no pakistani can accept the significance of the difference.
To guide you in this process, just close your eyes, imageine one man coming to the office of a solicitor, kills his daughter in cold blood. The man is invited next week to the office of the president to be honoured and the lawer is charged for mis-leading young women.

If you can foind something wrong with this image, where murder is an act of honour, you are beginning to understand the pathos, called pakistan. Pl do not write india and pakistan in the same sentence, the two are poles apart.

A country that extolls killing of the non-innocnet kafirs, well my friend you are in the land of the pure. If you have any courrage, if you have any dignity, make a one line statement, killing of non-innocent kafirs is not jihad.

``...advisor to two Prime Ministers and once also an ambassador for the country in Sri Lanka...``

Nice to know that people in Pakistan develop a common sense, once they are out of power. Pity that internationally acclaimed, self exiled, pundit of Pakistan could not offer the same advice to the two ministers, whom he served with no distinction.

Ciao

empirical #7

Pakistan stands for peace in Kashmir? I guess just as it stood for peace in Afghanistan! BTW, I hear there is more and more peace in Karachi. Enjoy, perhaps this ``peace`` will even visit someone in your family, just as it visited some in mine.

Anyway, I am not going to bother to address your delusions. The good news is that all the world today fully understands what Pakistan stands for. It is no longer us benighted, caste-ridden hindus who carry the burden alone.

There are many types of denial/deniability. One type is exceptionally high IQ Pakistani Army type denial displayed on the Ali A board which asserts that Indians are stupid enough to be shamed into stopping reading about the daily death toll by jihadis and rushing to handover J&K to Pakistan because Pakistanis say they watch Hindi movies. The same type of denial thinks India will pay millions of dollars for pipelined oil to help fund insurgencies within its own borders. [This sort of denial is also expressed in editorials like the Daily Times`]Or that India will allow 11 Indians to play cricket with Pakistan even though Pakistanis kill 11 Indians a day in J&K simply so that Pakistani Cricket Board occcupied by Army generals can earn millions of dollars in advertising and sponsorhips.

If Pakistani paper warriors pretend to misread the indoos so badly even in simple matters, what can Haqqani do about it. Let him give a 110 lectures and occupy 20 chairs, exactly what will change? You cannot wake up people who pretend to be asleep.

REF arjun_m, JAY,

Atleast admit that HH is pointing in the right direction. He has managed to rid himself of the classical hatered for india which prevents pakistanis to think clearly.

I am not sure, ``enlightend`` people like yourselves, representing the educated class of indian can do likewise. Your posts are filled to the brim with hatered and malice and its sickening.

Instead of speculating on HHs survival after such a speech, ponder abt the orgy of massacre of thousands of Indian citizens in gujrat. I wonder, how many perpetrators were apprehended in this connection.

As for beating the drums of infiltration across kashmir, take the blame somewhere else. If the 1 million strong indian army cannot sucessfully seal the kashmir border, then their competence and chewing of exorbitant defence budgets needs reviewing.

Bottomline is, atleast people from pakistan have the courage to point out where the problem lies. I believe, peace in kashmir is vital for progress of both people however, as long as people like yourselves represent the mindset of indian elite its just an exercise of fancy.

Lets imagine this guy was in Pakistan. How long would he survive after a speech like this? Just curious....

Ras,

May you should have added a prologue, HH would not have survived another day if he had expressed these views in pakistan.

regards

Jay

I went to HH`s event at Stanford. Although he`s saying all the right things (make peace with India, get army out of politics), I was puzzled by his dismissal of allegations of corruption against NS and BB (esp. the latter).

Does anyone know whether HH got a little piece of the action as well during the `fat years`?

[On the current situation Mr. Haqqani said that Pakistan today collects rent due to its strategic location and that Pakistan is doing this (rent collection) for the third time.]

This rent collection business would not have occurred but for Nixon and Kissinger`s megalomania and hatred of India. If in 1971 India had crossed into West Pakistan after liberating Bangladesh and had liberated Balochistan and Sindh (even if against the wishes of its inhabitants), there would have been one more nation contiguous to Afghanistan other than Pakistan in 1979 when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. India was prevented from doing this because Nixon and Kissinger warned India they wouldn`t stand idly by if India invaded West Pakistan and the Soviet Union made it very clear that their support of India in the Security Council was available so long as military operations were limited to the Eastern theatre. All countries paid the price for this stupidity: the Soviet Union not only lost Afghnistan after a 10-year occupation, it collapsed as a country. The US got 9/11 as the payback as well as a nuclear-armed Pakistan happily trading atom bombs for missiles with North Korea. Pakistan itself is awash in Kalashnikovs and drugs and mullahs with a military twice the size for half the country of pre-1971 eating up the budget and having first dibs on every economic activity. India has ``freedom fighters`` from Pakistan crossing into Kashmir and killing people because they happen to undertake a pilgrimage to Amarnath or Vaishnodevi. It remains to be seen what China is going to reap for its support of Pakistan and its strategic location.

arjun_m:

You no doubt find that finally, after one thousand years, the hour has finally come for forward-caste/communist-hating/secular-bashing/c++ & java-enabled hindus (and mad mullahs are accordingly demoted; time`s up; and Multix is clearly extinct).

You will find your narrow chest swelling after reading:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/2519729.stm

(BBC World`s HARDtalk host talks to BJP`s Brajesh Mishra)

;-)

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