The Christian Coalition & Israel - An Open Letter

To those Pakistanis who think they have been used.

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Impoverished Djiboutians See No Payoff for U.S. Presence
Surrounded by poverty, the U.S. military sticks to its secretive base in the Horn of Africa.
By Mark Fineman
Times Staff Writer

December 23 2002

DJIBOUTI -- Just beyond the barbed-wire berms and guard posts that mask the U.S. military`s secretive special-operations base, past a cratered road strewn with scrap heaps and human waste, Kadija Omar expects the Americans to deliver.

Like her desperate nation, the 40-year-old mother of six has been waiting for American jobs, food, money, schools, medicine and even a bit of U.S.-style democracy, said Omar, who earns $5 a month smuggling diesel fuel into neighboring Somalia.

But for the moment, she and her 2,000 neighbors in a parched squatters` patch of tin, plywood and sand in the shadow of the U.S. military`s Camp Lemonier would settle for a few engine parts to get the pump in their well up and running. It has been broken since August, leaving a vegetable crop to wither.

Villagers asked the American soldiers for help weeks ago, she said, when their Humvees rumbled through on a security patrol. But still, Omar said, sighing as she cradled a baby covered in flies, ``we are waiting.``

A full year after the Djiboutian government quietly gave the U.S. military free land, free rein and full secrecy for a forward base to hunt Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups in troubled East Africa, even senior officials grumble that they have gotten precious little in return. The U.S. must do more to contribute to this deeply impoverished Muslim nation, they and others said, or it will soon lose the hearts and minds of a country that is culturally, linguistically and socially almost identical to neighboring Somalia — the failed nation where U.S. soldiers were savagely beaten to death and dragged through the streets in a fierce battle that ended America`s last military venture in East Africa nearly a decade ago.

The U.S. military`s return to this turbulent region through a strategic beachhead in so needy a land says much about the often-conflicting priorities in America`s global war on terror. It is a portrait of what ensues when a superpower meets superpoverty in a quirky, little-known nation suddenly thrust onto center stage in a new kind of war.

``We are poor. We have nothing,`` said Mahmoud Ali Youssouf, minister of international cooperation. ``We readily enrolled in this global war on terror after 9/11, and we`ve given the Americans everything they have wanted. But for the time being, we haven`t seen anything from the United States in return.``

Several weeks ago, a visiting U.S. delegation added insult to injury, Youssouf said. The Agency for International Development offered his government just $4 million in development aid for this nation of 600,000 people. Three-fourths of it was earmarked for upgrading security at Djibouti`s international airport.

``I was so angry,`` Youssouf said. ``Don`t give us $3 million for security at our airport when we need schools, jobs, clinics, wells and roads. I told them: `We don`t want this money. Take it back to Washington.`

``We`re not begging for such money. But if you`re going to spend money here, spend it more effectively. We have basic needs.``

The scene from dawn until dusk at the corner of Athens and London streets in downtown Djibouti, the capital city, is testimony to the most basic need: Hundreds of young men waving resumes and trade certificates gather each workday at the Personnel Management Agency. The tiny storefront allots the precious few menial jobs the American base has on offer.

``America! America! We want a job,`` they chanted one day last week, crushing against the entrance. A manager later explained that thousands had applied for 250 day-labor jobs that the base had filled three weeks before. ``And still they come every day,`` he said.

Since independence from France in 1977, Djibouti has survived on foreign aid; its main domestic product is salt. Official corruption, which is as endemic here as cholera, has kept much of the aid from those who need it most.

Djibouti has the highest rate of malnutrition in all of Africa, a chronic condition that draws none of the emergency food given to its neighbors fighting famine. The U.S. gives Djibouti about 8,000 tons of food a year through the United Nations in an aid program that long predates the American military base.

Ninety-nine of every 1,000 Djiboutians die at birth, and the maternal death rate is triple that of Rwanda — the result of a bad diet, widespread maternal anemia and rampant female genital excision. About 60% of all Djiboutians are unemployed. Female rural illiteracy tops 85%. And the average Djiboutian lives just 51 years.

``The needs are enormous here,`` said Jorge Mejia, the resident representative of UNICEF. ``All the economic indicators are extremely low.``

A Skewed Economy

The prices of Djibouti`s consumer goods also top the list for Africa. Everything is imported and heavily taxed. The result is a skewed, split-screen national economy, where Cabinet ministers and a tiny elite of powerful businessmen dine on lobster and steak au poivre with European dignitaries on crisp linen in fine French restaurants, while most Djiboutians cook vegetables and pasta over open fires fed with scrap wood outside tin shacks. A block from the sweltering job seekers at the U.S.-base employment agency, foreigners and wealthy Djiboutians pay $3.50 an hour for Internet access at air-conditioned workstations in the Filga Foire Informatique, a cafe that even features private Web cameras.

So far, though, U.S. aid for Djibouti appears to be targeting America`s most basic needs. The airport-security funds that U.S. AID officials recently offered are for an international airport that abuts the new Camp Lemonier, which reportedly houses the most secretive Army, Navy and intelligence forces in the terror war.

The U.S. government has also committed an additional $2 million to renovate state-run Radio Djibouti, along with $100,000 in annual rent, in exchange for a strategic transmission station the U.S. is building for the Voice of America just outside the capital. The targeted audience: Yemen and the southern regions of Saudi Arabia — rich recruiting grounds for Al Qaeda and home to more than half the Sept. 11 hijackers.

America also is spending $500,000 to help finance next month`s Chamber of Deputies elections here, which diplomats say will be a lightning rod for Djibouti`s democratic aspirations — and for a possible anti-American backlash if the polls are seen as unfair.

Watershed Vote

It will be the first multiparty election in Djibouti`s quarter-century of independence, and U.S. officials are hoping it will usher in a stable era of democracy. After the French ended colonial rule, the country became a typical, one-party African autocracy. A new constitution ratified in 1992 — the year that also marked the beginning of Djibouti`s nine-year civil war — called for the multiparty system to begin now. An opposition, five-party coalition launched its first campaign last month.

``These elections are very, very important for the future of this country because we are in a situation that cannot continue,`` said Daher Ahmed Farah, a former political prisoner and newspaper editor who leads the opposition Party for Democratic Renewal.

``People are very, very angry. Until now, the anger is generalized. People want change, and we are determined not to allow the government to steal the election.``

Farah, who is known as Daf, for his initials, said he has warned Western diplomats: ``If you want this military platform to continue to be quiet, you have to help us make sure these elections are transparent. So if people are unhappy, anything can happen. An explosion is possible, just like the one that happened over there`` in Somalia.

Farah stressed that Djiboutians remain a peaceful and welcoming people, and most diplomats here played down the likelihood of an anti-American backlash. But they too cautioned that the potential for it is compounded by the lack of tangible U.S. assistance.

``The American troops live in a closed system,`` Farah added. ``We have no positive communication with them. They just stay in their base. Their only communication with the people is through their power, when they go to the countryside and fire their weapons during their exercises.

``They come, they do as they like, they disturb our peace, they give us no jobs and, finally, the impression is negative.``

President Ismail Omar Guelleh said in an interview Saturday that ``it is normal that we should get something`` in exchange for allowing the U.S. military to have a base in Djibouti. Negotiations for a formal base agreement that will fix those benefits are underway and will be signed in January, he said, but he ruled out any anti-American backlash by the Djiboutians if the U.S. falls short.

Guelleh, a former police intelligence officer, said his people were likely to be merely disappointed. ``We are a peaceful country.``

U.S. Marine Maj. Gen. John F. Sattler, commander of the region`s new military forces, said he would fight the shortcomings in American aid.

``Guilty as charged,`` he said on his command ship that arrived near Djibouti`s shores just a week ago. ``If we just build a camp, and we stay inside that camp, and we don`t bring folks in to work in the camp, and there`s no distribution of wealth outside by virtue of spending our money in the Djiboutian economy, I would feel the same way they did.``

Different Spending

A beer in town costs $6, a pizza $17 — prices that have helped keep the U.S. troops at Camp Lemonier off the streets and largely confined to a camp that brings in its own supplies and contributes almost nothing to the economy. That American dearth contrasts sharply with a French largess that has accompanied the thousands of soldiers and French Foreign Legion troops Paris has maintained here since independence.

The French forces are credited with preserving Djibouti as a nation. Without them, it probably would have been swallowed by neighboring Somalia or Ethiopia, which coveted its seaport. And unlike the Americans, the French have been ubiquitous, buying from local markets, using local services and renting local houses, until they opened a modern French compound that is a virtual city within the capital a few years ago.

According to one U.N. calculation, Djibouti`s annual per-capita income is $800 when the salaries of the 2,800 French troops stationed here are included. When they`re not, that figure is cut almost in half.

Even the German navy, which is part of the coalition task force patrolling the region for terrorists, has spent a fortune here. On average, a spokesman said, it has contributed $2 million a month to the local economy since its 800-strong force arrived in February.

Yet, only a fraction of that has trickled down to the impoverished grass roots.

Eight miles outside town, near the future site of the VOA transmitter, sits the squalid Pointe Kilometre 12 squatters` city. Among the few concrete foreign-aid projects that these 10,000 people have seen since they were scooped up by police in the capital and shipped out to a barren stretch of desert 20 years ago is a mosque built by Saudi Arabia.

The mosque is a rare solid structure in PK 12, as the locals call their village. It`s part of a Saudi project that has financed hundreds of new mosques throughout Djibouti, Pakistan, Yemen and other impoverished Muslim countries. The program is largely meant to export Saudi Arabia`s fundamentalist Wahabbite form of Islam — the religion shared by most of the Sept. 11 hijackers and Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden.

``We don`t care about this Wahabbism. We Djiboutians are far too moderate for all of that,`` explained Mohammed Nour, 30, who helped organize a village development committee in a squatter city that lacks electricity and running water but does feature a school built by the U.N.

``The U.N. also has given us some sewing machines and training, and that is a good start. But what we really need is sustained vocational training, a factory where we can produce something. Maybe even some old computers, and a generator to run them.

``We are happy to meet the Americans. We need the Americans. We have been trying to find them. But until now, they`re invisible.``

Minister Youssouf agreed. ``We`d like to keep the Americans in this country because we believe there is a great potential for us, and for them,`` he said. ``But if the Americans do not play this kind of game, or use this kind of strategy, it is they who will be the ultimate loser, not we.``

Somehow I dont understand why people dont realize that what is really happening today is not as much religion based as it is political. Its about time the muslims ``grew up`! There as been enough hiding behind our ideologis and defending them with mere words, its aout time we realize we are a failed nation. We need reform. The world is always with a winner and we need to get real. The USA or so called Christian world as the writer above so naively says is not backing ISrael because they are Jewish, its because they are winners. They have worked hard to be something from nothing. The americans love winners.
Today the plight of the muslims is similar to that of the Jews sometime back(but not as bad). So to all the people of the muslim world, keep your religion to yourself, and start getting a little worldy or you will see you hereafter a little too soon!!

``This is the Earl of Cromer`s `` should read as ``In the Earl of Cromer`s``

Guess what? if US had given the money which it gave to Israel over the past 50 years it would have been the more popular at Arab street, it would have guaranteed flow of oil, and a huge market to sell its products, as the arabs are not interested in making anything, they are happy selling oil and buying forign made stuff. works well for all.
But who will tell the christain majority who are inclined towards helping Jews in this massacar, that it is the Jews who actualy refused to accept Jesus as a tru prophet of God, and it is the Jews who still do not accept Jesus as the Son, born to Virgin Mary. It was the Jews who actualy (God Forbid), blamed Mary of bad character, when she was pregnant with Jesus.
On the other hand Islam and Muslims recognise Jesus as a true prophet of God, and Son of Virgin Mother, and are waiting for his return along with other Christians. We believe that Jesus will come and relieve the mankind from this aggresion will lead the people of God back to the True Faith and God.
But who will tell this truth...

This is the Earl of Cromer`s (first British Viceroy of Egypt-1882) account of why the British took over Egypt
``The population is heterogeneous and cosmopolitan to a degree almost unknown elsewhere. Although the prevailing faith is that of Islam, in no country in the world is a greater variety of religious creeds to be found amongst important sections of the community.``

Now lets see why this guy said this about Egypt and not of any other country in the world?
*Was it because he was forced?
*Was it because he was stupid and couldnt see the genetic Jehadi(what ever that means when you guys say it) afflliction of mulsims.
*This guy was a closet Jehadi?

You look into history and you will find this kind of more of these reports than that of oppression or lack of freedoms(viewed in their historical context) in muslim socities.
Even the Infamous (Now this will rile you) Aurangzeb.
In a boollet titiled `` Hindu Mandir aur Aurangzeb ke Faramin``
by Ataur Rahman Qasmi brought out by Maulana Azad Academy In quoting from a review of the book.

`` talks about a British scholar studying the land endowments of Haryana’s Hindu temples. During her research the British scholar obtained copies of 300 land grant documents from priests of temples all over the state. All these endowments were made on personal orders of Aurangzeb.

If this is the extent of grants made by the Mughal emperor in a small state like Haryana, what could be the measure of his beneficence on an all-India scale, Maulana Qasmi wonders``
Now I havent read this book (only review)Nor gone into the details of the Birtish Scholars (whoever that is)research.


However it is imperative to take a look at what we belive and what are the facts. At times we think with incomplete facts at our disposal, at times we analyse with what ever information is available (Usually thorugh western media or our media at times which doesnot have the time nor the reason to analyse the western media). At times we view actions of people in isolation with history or a chain of events. We expect a particular people to act right all the time no matter what the provcation no matter what decades of history has done to them. We expect them to be prefect in their actions while we discount any actions on part of any other players as expected of humans. Thus any action by US or the its precedesors the colonial powers of europe is taken as history. Even recent history is explained away. Even present actions are also seen as no consequence ``I agree...Their foreign policy has been selfish and at times very ill-adviced``.
Now let us see if the foregin polices that have ``AT TIMES BEEN ILL ADVICED`` or has it been conisistent throught and you are mislead into beliving their propaganda that at times they have made mistakes. Their latest is this `` Occupy Iraq and as a long term change the entire spectrum of political thought in the middle east. This is clearly brought out by the many policy statements by leading members of the present US establishment(Cabinet members, Senate Members, The think tanks that dirve the foregin policy and the media, members of the Democratic party) . If you are not aware of this let me know I will porovide you with many quotes which indicate a consistent thought process and this are not friendly or just but also dangerous to the rest of the world(is it any wonder that all the world governments are opposing the US polices as much as they can without antagonising them because of thier enormous power and ruthless excersise of it). But some how you fail to see all that. If you need the qoutes let me know.

Breifly examining History let us see what we come up with.
The places where USA has intervened and attempted to destabilise regimes mostly democratic and replace it with despotic regimes who allyed with USA.
Panama
Egypt
Algeira
Iran
Iraq
Sryia
Nicarugua
Chile
Argentina
Elsalvador
It suppourted Many dictatorships/Miltarybacked regimes AGAINST demoratic movements various countries thus skewing local poliitcs(imagine if they had suppourted Indra Gandhi during emergency by offering close ties and technology and funds!! what do you think would have been the effect on Indian politics?)
Turkey
Pakistan
Indonesia
Philipphines(once a colony of USA, Now free unlike Hawa a US statei , Peurto Rico- a protectate)

Do you want more lists?
The present so called Jihaids were created and funded by USA
Similary it still Infuences and thus protects Dictatorial regimes Egypt, Turkey whose Military(much admired by US Politicans of all Hues for its role in keeping Turkey in line with US`s agenda) has Veto power over every thing the parliment does. (Do you want such a arrangement in India? The US admires such a arrangement and is blind to what they do to the Kurds in Trukey which has killed more than one lakh of them, Same Kurds are portected in Iraq by No FLy zones)

Remeber any Muslim Terrorists before the Premtive Isreal war of 1967
and subsequent occupation of whatever little land Palestineans had? US had helped Iseral in this and threatened the arab states (whom Isreal had attaacked without provacation) against taking retaliation and also armed and restocked Israel Army after the ware.
What exactly they have done since then? consistenly targeted Isreal and US. What have the Tamil LTTE (the originators of the Human Bomb)done
when faced with Buddhist Killing and subujagation of tamils? Why was India running training camps in Tamil Nadu? Were we Jahidi sympathisers then? We only turned against LTTE when they assasinated Rajiv Gandhi. Why is LTTE a declared terrorist organisation in negotiation with the srilankan govt and why so much respect is given to LTTE by european govts? (are they Jihadi too?)
Was the USA and Canada which refused to brand the Khalistan Organisation for more than 15 years (even after Kanishka bombing)Jihadi?
Why is a bomb blast by IRA who also claim to be fighiting for thier way of life (Catholocism) not consisdered in the same way as what the Muslim group? Why are the Catholic groups based in Boston who funded IRA and advocated its cause in US not treated in the same way as Al Qaeda? Why is the British does the british govt wants India to free Robert Blake (remeber Purlia arms drop). Is the british govt a Jihadi symptheiser? Why did India release the russians involved in this Incident? The guns dropped in Purlia just contarbrand goods? Probably there is a great demand for them in West Bengal. Apparently bengalis like keeping them in their Drawing rooms for decoration.


You call me a Jihadi? and what is your basis? that I offer you some other view point on world politics?
Im not a hipocrite and say that Jihad is outdated or some thing like that.
What is Jihad as I understand it and as most muslims understand it?
It (the Jihad of arms ie) can be called under three conditons
1) When a Islamic state is attacked
2) When an oppressed people appeal for help to an Islamic country.
3) When another Islamic state is attacked.

Who can give a call for Jihad?
It can be given only from a Islamic State (not a just a muslim state) not by any non-state group.
This can be given either by the head of state or by the Khalifa of the time if he over looks the Islamic states.
The rules of war are in Islamic theology are pretty clear to most (if you are not aware let me know)
Jihad is a call to arms to the able men of a Islamic state.

Now you always lotahe a religon giving a call to arms. The very word Jihad raises your hackles. Now lets see some modern day evivalents of it.
Now replace this word Jihad to a Call to war , or declaration of war.
Let us examine some instances.
1)1962 war against chinese aggression. Were India a Islamic state it would have declaered a war(Jihad) against China in defence of an attack an example of the point 1 listed above.

2) Liberation of Bangaladesh. Were India a Islamic state it would have called for war(Jihad) against a country (pakistan) in suppourt of the opressed(the bengali muslims) This is a example of case 2 listed above

3)A number of groupings exist in the world where member countries pledge to suppourt one another if any one is attacked. let us take the case of NATO. If any one of the countries is attacked then the other countries in Nato are legally obliged(as their respective parliments have ratified the NATO treaty)to come to the defence of the attacked country.
Were NATO a grouping of Islamic countries they would have called for war (Jihad) against the attacker in defence of the attacked country.

Just parroting the lines set by some other source does not make you any more wiser than me nor my viewpoint ridiclous.

If you want to debate do it on the points and give logical reasoning. Just dont allude to solutions which are clearly not logical.

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I am no fan of the cold war but that was the reality of the day. You do not want to see the reality that is your problem. Would you rather have the russians have complete control over the world.
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So lets see what your argument is--- if two countries are fighting over India and one is slightly better than the other then it is ok for Indians call the less dangerous one as a good nation?? Is it not better to give a proper denunication of both? No you dont think so.


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don`t care how malaysians viewed the Indian army in WW11. ...again your argument lacks and semblence of logic. The soldiers were paid by the British. The soldiers in those days used to be among the most privileged people in rural Punjab. It was not a fault of these soldiers that the British colonized India. You are forgetting that Punjab was the last state to be colonized by the british.

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Lets see what points you are making. You dont care what others think of you? No you would not like to make a reasoned analysis as to wether this opinion has any basis or not but would like to regect it altogehter. Perhaps you feel that one does not have to take into account others opinons.

<> So if Indian spies are paid by US then it is ok. This is what is being done for many years. Infact the US govt has announced yesterday that its Military will run operations to subert institituions (like madarsas, Mosques and other organisations)which give any opinon of US apart from what the US govt would like it to be. this is targetted at friends and Allies of India. It will be done in a varietey of ways which will include planting of moderate Muslim groups etc and sponsring madarsas etc which will take a favour able view of USA. I hope you read papers and are well informed.(else Ill give you the links) Now lets see what means (I know that you will not mind if it is done against muslims or madrasas) could these implants(you would not know who they are) be used in future against the Indian establishment? Think next time There is an Dhabol Case there will be a moderate Muslim face in the cabinet espoucing the US line!!! Or Muslim orgainsations advocating and taking the lead in say priviatisation of Defence inddustries and may be ISRO too (to mostly US or US controlled companies). Now you will accuse me of exxagarating. Would you like a list of countries where US agencies have toppled elected govt to replace with dictators? (let me know if you are not aware I will refer you to appropriate sources)

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The soldiers in those days used to be among the most privileged people in rural Punjab.
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Amazing isnt it? Serve your occupiers who did not consider you human enough to be their equal. this is precisely what drew the contempt of the Malaysians the smug contentment of slavery.


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You are forgetting that Punjab was the last state to be colonized by the british.
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Perhaps due to the reason of being the most interior from the beachheads of bombay calcuta and madras. Also to the martial skills of the people of punjab Iwill acknowlege. Also you will perhaps that the Afghans you so revile had decisively dealt defeat to the british and remained independent. perhaps you must also acknowlege the role of the muslims who formed a large part of punjabis(in case you have forgetten)in such resistance.

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Jordan has a population of around 4million. Any comparisons are meaningless. This is the kind of misleading arguments that you put forward.
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True but size is hardly an reason for lack of development just a excuse. Then by that reason USA should be backward or Japan more denser than India in terms of population per KM or (Malaysia 60 million ) equally diverse (just to eliminate that excuse in case you forward it ) with chinese, Indian, few portuguse , Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhists in similar example and a more advanced than india.

On the other hand taking a diffrent issue(since you seem to be allerigc to all things islamic--pardon me if im wrong)Iran has had 92 percent litreracy for both males as well as females despite Islam (how do you account for it?) do you know the litreacy levels of Palestians? those stateless people? or the Iraqis?

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The statistics prove that muslims are probably more brainwashed than any other people. Without that they would not have been blowing up building in New York.
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Hmm.. looks like you are deep into statistics.. One incident operated by a handfull of peopleand you conclude by its weight that muslims are brainswashed. You have to do better than that in staticsitcs.

Lets see what about the Hindus who mascarred 3000 sikhs killed in Delhi (mostly)and so far no one punished(sure lot of condemmnation). How may people participated. How deep was the involment of the people, the political establishment, the religous establishment, the business commuinity, the govt arms like bureacracy(suppossed to call the army), police, Judicary etc in this 3 day killing spree before any attempt was made to contain it?

What about he Hindus who in (reports of crowds of above 10thousand in many places)who macassared 2000 muslims and burnt down house of tens of thousnads more? What about the whole establishment which stood by it and now the whole sale endorsment of it by the Millions in the just concluded election? No punishmets expected for the next 50 years my garuntee.

No no... It is the muslims who are evil due to being brain washed. very nice arguments Dhillon Ji.


But some how this Earl guy that I have quoted above seems to be a subsersive English man perhaps he too was brain washed.... Hmm that explains it.


Now lets see you meerly dislike the US Iraq policy which has killed hundreds of thousands already and will kill more. But it is perhaps understandable because a guy has to watch his ratings!! And these silly muslims they want to kill just for occupation of land, for dictators being imopsed on them, their recources being expritated at cheap rates by US corporations through control of countries through such dictators...

Hmm wonder why those stupid kuwaitis see in Saddam. Perhaps they were aware that Kuwait was doiing Slant drilling(stealing) oil in the common oil bank on the Iraqi/Kuwait border at the behest of US to entrap Saddam (because he had started to develop Nuclear Weapons)to protect Israel.
Hmm... Now wonder why the US needs to protect Isreal?? Was it formed by people who lived in that area for the last 100 years, 300 years? 500 years? 1000 years? did any one ask (ie did the western owned and dominated UN) the palestinians wether they wanted to give up their land to give it to Isreal?

Nooo..... there cant be another reason but brain washing. these muslims just refuse to lay down peacefully like the Native Americans and Native
Australians did. Now that Terrorist mandela(rembeber that designation) and (closet )Terrorist Mugabe should have should have been taught a lesson on what happens if you resist occupation of the land by its rightful owners...

Perhaps that can wait for some time first Iraq the Iran (will sirya protest cant it be a good boy like eqypt,Trukey and Jordan, Algeria)

Hmmm those two pakisistan and India got to take them nukes out of their hand .. Let us see if the subersives we are planning to plant are going to be of any help in that task..

Papa ji dhillon WAKE UP CALL
and when you do that if you need help in keeping your eyes open let me know.

There can be a difference in domestic policy and foregin policy. Britan demonstarted it 200 years back and US is doiing it now in our time. Dont confuse the excellent state of freedoms inside US with what it does outside and dont think that the contradictions cant exist.

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I do support US policy on Iraq
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Missed a ``not`` in there . This is what I was trying to write:

I do not support US policy on Iraq.

#53 by ali87 on December 13, 2002 9:25pm PT

Your arguments are ridiculous. This is my response.

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Afghanistan and its hundreds of thousands killed were used by US
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I am no fan of the cold war but that was the reality of the day. You do not want to see the reality that is your problem. Would you rather have the russians have complete control over the world.

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Strange you have such a desire for self flaggelation. But this is not new either we provided the troops to the british army in its conquests around the world. And people from Punjab were in the forefront in that. Perhaps you should read how Malaysians viewed Indians who served in the British Army during world war 2. A reading of Amitav Gosh`s ``Glass Palace`` gives captures the contempt for this kind of thinking very well.
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I don`t care how malaysians viewed the Indian army in WW11. ...again your argument lacks and semblence of logic. The soldiers were paid by the British. The soldiers in those days used to be among the most privileged people in rural Punjab. It was not a fault of these soldiers that the British colonized India. You are forgetting that Punjab was the last state to be colonized by the british.

Funny you should be tellimg me about self flaggelation. You muslim buddies(Pakistan, Qatar etc) have long since sold their sovereigneties to the US. See the problem...the FBI is operating within Pakistan and not India. The Pakistani Govt. helped US fight Taliban which contained Pakistani army regulars not to mention Pakistani Jehadis. Forget the fact that the Taliban was basically Pakistan`s love child.

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Seems to me that it holds the country wealth by historical precendent. It may or may not be spreading misinformation but certainly that is not the reason it is in control.
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Historical precedent is hardly a justified reason.

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By the way you forget who owns the Wealth in Nepal or In Bhutan. Simialry there is a King in jordan a mulsim one at that and they are very forward in education, better statistics than India
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Nepal, Bhutan and Jordan. Do you think these countries are examples of success stories. Don`t give me that crap anout Jordan having better statistics than India. Jordan has a population of around 4million. Any comparisons are meaningless. This is the kind of misleading arguments that you put forward.

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Who is anybody to decide thier future except the Saudis.
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The whole world could care less about a country which wants to live in teh 7th century. We do care because they are the primary financiers of terrorism around the world.

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What is your view of Ram Rajya desipte a Monarchy?? or views change as per the latest hawa??
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I don`t want ram rajya or for that matter any rajya. I want a democracy.

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I have no agenda just hav
ing my eyes open Im just not brainwashed.
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The statistics prove that muslims are probably more brainwashed than any other people. Without that they would not have been blowing up building in New York. ......not to mentions destroying their own countries.

++++++++++
did you conduct a survey? Even if they so what? Majority of Hindus belive that Beef Eating is sin while there is sufficient evidience that this was not the trend earlier during vedic times. It is in the Vedas it self?
+++++++++++++

This is exactly the problem with Jehadis like you. Time change, people have to adapt themselves to the new times. We can not impose laws based on the Vedas. Anyways.....again you raise a trivial point. If hindus want to eat beef they should be allowed to. Unlike muslim countries people do have such freedoms in India.

You go on and on about US excesses. I agree...Their foreign policy has been selfish and at times very ill-adviced. However I am not convinced that this is your real problem with the US. You guys hate the US because it kicks jehadi/terrorist ass.

I do support US policy on Iraq. Seem like Bush is doing it to raise his ratings. If it happens , the Iraqi people will be much better. I can not see how anybody can be worse than Saddam. Again I remember he was a hero among muslims during the Gulf war. Even more surprising is that the Kuwaitis now think he is the best thing since sliced bread. This is the kind of thinking that permeates the muslim world.

I am not here to defend America. However I can not stand the hypocrisy in Muslim countries. No doubt american foreign policy has made great errors in the past. However the government in still answerable to the common man. On the other hand the Governments in muslim countries(e.g Pakistan) operate terrorist camps and promote terrorism as a form of state policy(``strategic depth`` etc.). The worst part is ordinary muslims support all these policies but cry foul the moment US kicks some ass.


+++++++++
Dhillon open your eyes
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If opening my eyes means fall to your anti - US propoganda...no thanks.

#50 by ssdhillon on December 12, 2002 6:52pm PT
You seem to read too much in the lines.
Where did I give the impression that I was a leftist, rights or centerist?
I have no objections for any body investing anywhere. Only bullying by stronger countries and you defending that as acceptable.
Notice Indias response to the Pakistani Nuclear explosion ``Pakistan is a sovergin country it is for it to decide how to defend itself`` Now India is more in danger of pakistani Nuclear bomb but it displays some sense of civility in its response. Compare this to the response of the Europeans and America. You mean to say that you find this Ok? Or do you under the delusion that the American rethoric about various issues concerning other countries is just for the sake of making noise around the world??
Afghanistan and its hundreds of thousands killed were used by US (by its own admission) to deliver a blow to soviet union and you are perfectly happy that India may be another such staging ground should China grow big enough(which it looks all set to be).
Strange you have such a desire for self flaggelation. But this is not new either we provided the troops to the british army in its conquests around the world. And people from Punjab were in the forefront in that. Perhaps you should read how Malaysians viewed Indians who served in the British Army during world war 2. A reading of Amitav Gosh`s ``Glass Palace`` gives captures the contempt for this kind of thinking very well.

>>The royal family controls all the wealth by spreading misinformation<<

Seems to me that it holds the country wealth by historical precendent. It may or may not be spreading misinformation but certainly that is not the reason it is in control.

>>Forget about no taxes in saudi. I would rather the Saudis have more taxes and educate their people properly<<

Who is anybody to decide thier future except the Saudis.

By the way you forget who owns the Wealth in Nepal or In Bhutan. Simialry there is a King in jordan a mulsim one at that and they are very forward in education, better statistics than India.

What is your view of Ram Rajya desipte a Monarchy?? or views change as per the latest hawa??

<>
did you conduct a survey? Even if they so what? Majority of Hindus belive that Beef Eating is sin while there is sufficient evidience that this was not the trend earlier during vedic times. It is in the Vedas it self?

>>I do not knoiw what your agenda is. I just do not see the US as a threat to world peace<<
I have no agenda just having my eyes open Im just not brainwashed.

US was Involved in more than 100 confilict around the world.
Killed Millions in Vietnam?? What for?? Its Intrests. It has more Intrest in Arabian gulf than the gulf countries.

Yes I know that some calim that the US is assisting may people around the world.
So whom was it assisting when it killed 2 millon in vietanam? Did it not go away defeated? and what calamity was coming upon Vietnam that it didnot come on it when US turned tail without defeating the enemy there?
Why did it sail the 7th fleet threatining India and asking Chinese to help them by moving to forward postions during 1971?
Why did it bomb Sudan medical factory? Why did they not complete the over throw of Saddam in 1991 and instead used a tactic of destroying water treatment plants (these are public statements on record) power stations and other public anemites and said that it did so that Saddam will be over thorwn by people when they suffer? Why did it suddenly abandon the Oppostion forces after asking them to topple Saddam and that they will stand behind them? Saddam later killed 40000 thousand people in retaliation? Was it by any chance that no matter which leader or what form of govt came to Iraq it would not be a hand dog of US. And Iraq with a very strong education system and a strong industrial base would have been a major power in the Gulf thus lessining the US influence to control the oil.
Why does US need to control the Oil when India does not feel the need to do so? Why should US`s intrest in gulf be more than the that of any country in that region?
Why did US suppourt the disolutoin of the Iranian parliment and installation of the Shah Of Iran? Why did it support a Socialist Bahat party in Iraq when Khomeni took control of Iran? Did any muslim country attack or conspire against US at that point of time? Why did it suppourt Saddam Hussain when he abbrogated the Iraqi connsittuion and delcared himself supreme leader?
Why did they suppourt the many dictators in south andcentral america Many times against democraticaly elected leaders?
Why does it suppourt so many dictators in Pakistan and even now it does?
Why did it declare Nelson Mandela as a terrorist and ANC as a Terrorist organisation? Why did it refuse to declare the khalistani terrorist organisations even after the kanishka bombing as terroirst and allowed them to operate freely until after september 11?
Why does it maintain Thousands of Missiles enough to finish the world many times over?
Why was US intervention in Nicaragua leading to killing of hundreds of civillians called a terrorist action by the world court?
Why does it still impose sanctions against Cuba crippling that country? and why not against China?
Did any Iranian people attack any US intrest in the last few decades? so why did it declare it a part of AXIS of Evil?
What is US`s business if North Korea has a nuclear Plant ora Nuclear bomb? Why does India also not do the same after all it is more affected by the misslile transfers?

Is it so difficult to see all this? but you have brainwashed your self. Not speaking out becaue o fear is one thing putting your head in the sand is another.

Power flows from Economic strength without which military strength cant be built or sustained.

India is presently 20 times behind US (and number 10 economy)in termsof economic acctivity china is eight times. I hope you belive that India will be a developed economy at some point of time. Even when we come just to the level of what China is now in terms percapita GDP ie $3000 ie six times its present strength its economy will become the third largest in the world. May be it will be as big as Japan is now (wont you bless our numbers then) and be the third largest economy (china is the third largest now). Apart from India there will be other countries growing too. This means that US`s market share in the world will reduce. Its influence will aslo reduce accordingly. But will its attitude change?? Or will it be in line with its past history?/
How many countries have accepted reduced influence peacefully in the past? with belligerence and Imperial notions deeply etched in it natioal Physce it and its enormes military at its disposal what do you think will be the result?
May be you have missed how the whole world is opposing (as much as it can without antagonising) the US with its behaviour in throwing its weight around in the last few months. Intresting to note that before annoncing the suppourt for the UN resloution on Inspectinos France announced an 30 percent increase in its military spending. simalary when it was obvious that US will get its way germany announced that it will revealuate its military policy.
Similarly what did the combodia say on the intense pressure to hand over the Iraq doucments. Was is the nature of this pressure?

Dhillon open your eyes

ali87 # 49:

Bill Gates does not own Microsoft. He owns 19% of Microsoft shares. In theory the 81% shareholders could combine to remove him from running Microsoft. Microsoft earns 30 billion dollars in revenue or sales out of which $7 billion is profit.

#49 by ali87 on December 12, 2002 3:00pm PT

The royal family controls all the wealth by spreading misinformation. No opposition is allowed. The royals know that if they let the ordinary people get educated, they would be overthrown. A majority of the pople in Saudi beleive that Israel did 911 to malign Arabs. This is the kind of misinformation that is fed to the people. No wonder 15 of the 911 highjackers were Saudis

Yes it is wrong that the royal family control all the wealth. That is the root of all problems. I don`t see the comparison with Bill Gates. Bill Gates opened up a business and made money. The royals treat a national resource as their private property. Also, Bill Gates in not the ruler of the country.

Forget about no taxes in saudi. I would rather the Saudis have more taxes and educate their people properly. It would be weird if the people are taxed. The Government controls the only resource the country has. What right does it have to tax the people.

I do not knoiw what your agenda is. I just do not see the US as a threat to world peace. I do however see Saudi sponsored terrorism as a threat.
But for the US, the Taliban would still have been training terrorists to kill people in Kashmir.

I don`t buy this ultra left view that all US businesses are evil. If our officials want to sell us out to American businesses that is not a fault of the Americans. What is wrong with US politicians promoting US companies. Look at the Chineese. They seem to have doubled their per capita incomes because of investment by US companies.The fact is countries like India need to attract Investment from US companies. I don`t see a way to increase living standards without heavy foreign investment.

#42 by ssdhillon on December 10

As regards to Gujrat, the state of education has very little to do with voilence. Voilence which is taking place in Gujrat and at times in other places is usually not a spontaneous reaction. The strategy of any society or grouping is decided by the elite and the organised people who exploit latent feelings among the masses. First indoctrination takes palce for years to mangify the latent feelings then opportunites are exploited and usually there is a long term strategy and goals behind all this. This not done by the uneducated but by the educated who have access to money. I toured New Delhi extensively during 1984 Anti-Sikh roits what I saw and my interaction with various spectators, participants, security forces gives me nothing to belive otherwise. On the other hand if the elite wish they can contain and redircect to constructive use such latent negative feelings if it sees its benift in it.

As for my defending Arabs I dont know where you saw it in my post. I only asked that they be seen/treated in similar fashion as anybody else.

Also I dont see why should Saudi Royals would bother to satisfy me by directing my attention to US. Are you assuming that they think that im their resposibility? Or are you assuming that I look towards them on how to view the world?
What is inherrently wrong in a family owning $160 billion in revenues. How much one single man Bill Gates own in revenues? Also remember that Saudis (at least at present)dont pay any kind of tax. Calculate how much in terms of Income tax, and other taxes adds up to. That is also a form of redistribution of wealth, may be you and I are not comfortable with it but it is for the Saudis to decide.

#41 by arjun_m on December 10, 2002 2:12pm PT

In the future scenario US is the biggest danger to the world. Read the response they have reserved for any power which comes close to them Militarlily. At one point of time the US and western europe and its allies were the biggest market in the world. They had the only industrial infrastructue in the world. They had the largest intellectual capital in the world. This has changed substantially. India, China and many other countries have a reasonable Industrial infrastructre and a economic market within Non US powers is bigger than it was before(therefore reducing dependence on US). Both China and India in sheer numbers have a great deal of intellectual captial and in near future even in percentage of populations terms will near the levels of US and western europe. Imagine a hypothecial scenario in future when say India, China and russia (more developed and thus more dependent on Oil)have substantial investment in oil infrastructre of say Iran and US has a dispute with Iran. Do you imagine that US will suddenly start behaving differently than what it does now? With more economic power and technological power on part of India, russia and china how do you think the scenario will play out? US will make all attempts to punish us directly or indirectly if we come in its way. It is a Imperial power by self admission.
US sees China as the main emergeing power in the future and is engaging India as a counterweight to it Hoping that the either thorugh us or others it will prevent Chinese hegemony over the smaller states in the region. Like you said the Indian govt is aware of this but sees in it a opportunity to gain access to technology and markets. It feels it can manage the bear crush which even pakistan in some way has managed to endure. Anyway there is no other better option at present.

As far as US companies and US govt is concerned. You over look how the US officals and president hammered us about enron on every visit to India and even while attempting to diffuse Khargil crisis. Same script is being read out to bangladesh regarding the Uncoal project there. How many US politicians are involved in major Oil other infrastrauctre companies. How many people behind the many think tanks which guide Washington policy are heavily involved in US businesses? Perhaps that will give you a reason to belive that US govt can be very closely identified by US companies(even more than ordianry US workers)

#47

`Holiday festivals`, `How will you spread the cheer` `toys that teach` `email this story` `subscribe to treeless edition` `shoplifting woes go beyond Winona Ryder` `printerfriendly version` `make a donation`

Chowkstaff, why?

#44 by AzadMunna on December 11, 2002 7:08am PT
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Translation :Those that rush to give PUNISHMENT ask them to give PROTECTION first .If you condemn humanbombergive them protection from bigger guns .and if you cant shattapp
++++++++++++

So now the Israelis should base their policies on the peaceful principles of the Bhagvada Geeta but it is OK for the Palestinians to encourage their kids to blow themselves up......Great logic man!!!

Stop quoting religious texts. These conflicts(Kashmir, Middle East) are to complicated to be solved by these philosophical(religious) texts. That is the problem with jehadis like you....``Lakeer Ke Fakeer``.

I don`t want to start a discussion with you but you haven`t explained what is wrong with what Ram did(In case he did it). Is it one of those Muslims brave, rest Cowards, 1 muslim = 10 non-muslims kind of jehadi crap.

++++++++++++
he only place where children have formed human bomb is Palestine
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I don`t know about that. The taliban had a ton of underage boys fighting for them. They had the complete support of your jehadi army.

Question is who wrote this ``open letter``. Is it Terrell E. Arnold or it is
Intikhab Utmanzai.If it is Terrell Arnold, what is Mr. Utmanzai`s contribution to this `masterpiece`. On the contrary,if it is Mr. Utmanzai`s creation,then who is this Terrell E. Arnold. I am so confused.

# 36 Tipu
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THANK GOD THAT I AM NOT CODE COOLIES
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I know Pakis in the US prefer being taxi drivers. I am sure you are proud of it.

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DONT YOU WORSHIPP RAM WHO HAD HIS SON LUV KUSH FIGHT & SAVE HIS LIFE?????????
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I don`t know if that is true.....But how is that worse than asking your kids to kill innocent people by blowing themselves up.

#40 Ali87.

The violence in Gujarat does have something to do with uneducated(and therefore unemployed unemployed) youth. Beleive me if they had the means(education) ...they`d be improving their lives rather than destroying others.

I have no idea whay you guys defend Arabs.....The Arabs should be pissed at their rulers rather than the Americans. I guess the only way the royals can pacify the Islamists and the common people(not to mention people like you) is by shifting attention from themselves to the US and Israel.....Otherwise how can one family control oil revenues of $160B a year.

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Ref Tipu #35

[November 29, 2002
Once a Close Economic Rival of China, India Falls Behind
By KEITH BRADSHER]

You should read a recent issue of the Far Eastern Economic Review (www.feer.com). Had a spread on India. It seems up to half the Foreign Direct Investment in China may be Chinese money going outside illegally and coming back as investment dollars.

Also, Electra Partners of UK said not one foreign investor made any decent profit on a Chinese investment. They got 25% return on an investment in China and plan never to invest again there. They claim to have had fantastic returns on their investment in Moser Bayer (India) which makes blank CDs and other media. In case you don`t know it, venture investors want to make it big (like a 1000% return -- you got that right, that is one thousand percent) on their investments so that even if only 2-3 investments in 10 pan out, they will be ahead of the game.

#32 by pmishra2
Remember in 1971 the seventh fleet sailed to threaten India? Not much has changed except America sees some benifit in investing in us economicaly as well as politically mainly as a counter to China. In sure that you are neither deaf nor blind and read newspapers as well as watch TV. You must know what the US thinks of any country trying to come close to being their equal in economy or military and how they plan to respond to that challenge.
As regards Arabs being savages or not let me remind you despite the Phds the Gujrat govt couldnt respond like a govt and arrest those responsible for Godhra and later on lead a lynch mob killing 3000 mostly innoccents. Looks like some the you need to do a Phd to arrest and contain a communal incident. May be you also need to have a Phd to know that a train full of ticket less goons are going to create trouble. Also you need a Phd to understand that cows are animals and not your mother.
People are rich or poor due to circumstances. What elevates them is how they respond to it. This is not to say that Arabs are without fault. They are humans like anyone else with their good points and weak points. So when you dont call Indians Savages why do you think you should call Arabs savages? Or do you want me to point out some more savage behaviour of some Indians?
In all this silly name calling what we forget how we could help each other in what is ultimately going to be the biggest challenge, that of standing up to the USA.

Indeed an enlightened discussion.
Ain`t generalisations and stereotyping so much fun. Even though these , the latter atleast, expose you for the congenital jackass that you really are.

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# 21 AAmir
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You know i Hyderabad code coolies line up for the truck to pick them uop as day labourers masons ,carpenters fighting to get in for the days job
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As opposed to Lahore, Multan, Bradford Pakis lining up for the lashkar, Hizbul, al-Qaida to pick them up.....Well who wouldn`t prefer 72 virgins over a measly regular income.

Thank God I am a ``Code Coolie``. You obviously prefer camp X-ray.

#31 AAmir

Savages are people who send their children to be suicide bombers. Dont waste my time complaining about the israelis. The palestinians are lucky to be dealing with them. If thety were dealing with their fellow arabs (imagine an uprising of shias in Saudi Arabia! or what happened to the Kurds in Iraq) not a single one would be alive today.

#27 adnan_rafiq

You are the guy who seemed to be very impressed that arabs actually employ indians. I am merely pointing this means nothing except that they need labor.

You still haven`t answered my question:

A few hundred miles from their shores live more than a 500 million south asians in deep poverty. Have these folks invested any of their money in helping out? Literacy? Infra-structure?

Why do you think this is the case? Yet there are millions available for bringing ``freedom`` thru the use of terror. And you feel this is not savagery?

pmishra2: You`re missing the point. I am not saying that Indians are inferior to Arabs because they work in their countries. Of course when it comes to democracy, education and progress, Indians are head and shoulders above the Arabs. But, your stereo-typing of Arabs as savages is a little out of line. If all of them are indeed savages as you claim, how come Indians (including Hindus) are drawn to their countries in such numbers. Surely, they cannot be as barbaric as you claim they are. When you say, ``They are not doing us any favors. If they could get rid of the indians and replace them by more efficient or cheaper people, they certainly would,`` aren`t you implying that they are smart enough to understand economics. That they understand the value of cheap labor. That they do not let Islamic supremacist logic dictate their actions all the time. Like they say in America, its the economy, stupid!
Your problem is that in the after-math of 9/11, you are hell bent on stereo-typing an entire group of people as savages and barbarians because it has become fashionable to do so. The Saudi Royal family is definitely to be blamed for promoting wahabism and terrorism across the globe, but you cannot spew so much venom against all Arabs indiscriminately. They obtained their wealth in 1974 and its absurd to expect them to improve world culture in such a short period of time. A few decades ago, the British said the same things about Indians. Winston Churchill was not even willing to take the ``naked fakeer`` Gandhi seriously. He used to point to his collection of books and proclaim that they contained more information than the entire Asian sphere of knowledge. I guess, it must be the British residual that makes you say such things.
I hope India continues to prosper and progress, as God knows there are many oppressed and hungry in that nation too, but please stop acting like the noveaue riche. Provide running water, electricity, health benefits and jobs to your people before bragging about your US patents.

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#27 adnan_rafiq

Amusing to hear you say ``exception of Saudi Arabia``. It is like saying all of europe behaves a certain way except for France and Germany!!

What is the relative size and wealth of Saudi Arabia relative to Dubai/Kuwait/UAE? I would be surprised if the latter had even 1/10th the economy and oil revenues.

If Indians (or hindus as you prefer to call them) are flourishing in small enclaves in Dubai and UAE more power to them. Certainly, I see no credit to the local population for having ``brought`` them there.

No doubt you get many requests from indians for jobs. We are still a poor country with a large population. Some of the Gulf countries hire indians. Fine, what is the big deal here? This makes them great people? They are not doing us any favors. If they could get rid of the indians and replace them by more efficient or cheaper people, they certainly would.

Let me ask you this question: since 1974 when these backward people suddenly became rich, what have they done for the poor of the world? A few hundred miles from their shores live more than a 500 million south asians in deep poverty. Have these folks invested any of their money in helping out? Literacy? Infra-structure? What is their positive contribution to world culture?? ZERO.

Instead, we have billions of dollars invested in wahhabism, in the destruction of traditonal forms of islam in india and indonesia. In funding suicide bombers and extremism in every corner of the world.

India produces more PhDs IN INDIA than the entire arab world. And I am not counting the desi folks who study and work outside india. Indians file more US patents than this whole useless bunch. How come we beggars are able to do such things and these folks who claim to belong to the most advanced civilization possible do not??

I stand by my statement. These folks as a class and a culture are bunch of rich backward-looking nothings. 70 years is not likely to make a difference.

re: pmishra2 #26

You`re absolutely right, my man! These Arabs sure are fools bar none. I mean, don`t they know how highly an average Indian thinks of them, as is evident by your post. Yet, with the exception of Saudi-Arabia, most of these dumb savages continue to provide gainful employment to all Indians regardless of race or religion. Anyone who`s ever been to Dubai or Bahrain will attest to the fact that these countries are bursting at their seams with Indians. Many businesses are owned by Hindus who are flourising despite the Islamicist supremacist logic of the savage Arabs. Of course, there can only be one explanation for this: All Arabs are dumb savages.
As the H1B frenzy is coming to its unfortunate end, the Indians have now shifted focus back to the Middle-East. The recruiting agencies in Dubai and Abu Dhabi are unable to handle the overwhelming flow of software programmer resumes. Why are you guys so keen on working for savages and whiners?

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romair #23

[quote]
What happens when its lobbies in the US have no power due to lack of Jewish population, and it is surrounded by equally productive Arab states in 70 years.
[begin-quote]

hah, ha.... That was so funny ! ``Equally productive Arab States``....

What a joke ! These fools sit on 10s of billions of dollars of oil today and are basically savages. And in 70 years they will be ``productive``!! Bihar will be a world super-power well before the arabs are able to do anything ``productive`` !

They will be same old whiners and victimology specialists, wallowing in their islamicist supremacist logic, full of arrogance and ignorance.

Somehow, I feel the israelis dont need you to worry about them. A 1000 people like you could not help the arabs....

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Trent Lott on where the U.S. society went wrong:

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?channel=civic%20center&aid=00001629&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1

Speaking Thursday at a 100th birthday party and retirement celebration for Sen. Thurmond (R-S.C.) in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Lott said, ``I want to say this about my state: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We`re proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn`t have had all these problems over all these years, either.``

Thurmond, then governor of South Carolina, was the presidential nominee of the breakaway Dixiecrat Party in 1948. He carried Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana and his home state. He declared during his campaign against Democrat Harry S. Truman, who supported civil rights legislation, and Republican Thomas Dewey: ``All the laws of Washington and all the bayonets of the Army cannot force the Negro into our homes, our schools, our churches.``

On July 17, 1948, delegates from 13 southern states gathered in Birmingham to nominate Thurmond and adopt a platform that said in part, ``We stand for the segregation of the races and the racial integrity of each race.``

I have always wondered how much influence the pro-Israeli lobby a.k.a. Jewish lobby actually has in US politics. Whatever research I have done on it indicates it has a hell of a lot of influence. The numbers, regarding the powerful positions pro-Israeli (politically correct name for Jews in USA) occupy in the US, presented by Alan Derschewitz in his book The Vanishing Jew (can`t remember the exact title) are quite interesting. They are enough to indicate that Israel can literally runs the US foreign policy.

Derschowitz also states that due to inter-marraiges with Christians, the number of Jews in the USA will reduce from its current number (around 6 million or so) to around less than a hundred thousand (can`t remember the exact number - it may even have been as low as ten thousand) in seventy years.

What happens then?

One would think that by that time, at least one of the twenty two Arab countries in the world will have come out of the third-world, with a highly industrious and educated population, not dependent on oil revenues.

The total population of Israel is around 4 to 5 million or so. According to 60 minutes, most Israelis who can get a US Green card jump at the opportunity of immigration. The Israeli, ``mullahs`` are gaining more and more power in the Israeli assemblies. These mullahs do not recognize most American Jews as Jews, due to certain heridatory reasons (I think one`s mother has to be Jewish or something). These mullahs don`t have to do compulsory military service either.

So, in seventy years, many, if not most of the capable Israelis (and having worked with some, they are extremely capable) will have migrated out of Israel into the USA. In the USA, they will have inter-married with Christians, and the number of Jews in the USA will be down to a few thousands. The people stuck in Israel will be those who could not migrate or are the mullahs. These mullahs will not even recognize the US Jews as Jews. And a couple of Arab states will have educated populations, who will be able to utilize their massive resources efficiently. Not to mention the fact that, by that, some Arabs will have nukes also.

I avoid Arab countries like the plague, and think Pakistan should recognize Israel (after all what Israel is doing to Palestinians pales in comparison to what India is doing to Kashmris, and we recognize India - either recognize both or de-recognize both. And because Arabs consider us Pakistanis third-rate anyways. Not to mention the fact that our record with Afghans and Bangladeshis is equally poor).

But, isn`t Israel digging a hole for itself with its continued conflict with Arabs. What happens when its lobbies in the US have no power due to lack of Jewish population, and it is surrounded by equally productive Arab states in 70 years. There maybe another group of refugees created in the Middle East. And at that time, they won`t be Palestinians.

The survival of any race greatly depends on its ability to recognize the limits of its power. Israel is greatly overplaying its hand.

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Arjun,

` Another MMA leader, Hafiz Hussein Ahmed, was scathing: ``God, destroy those who handed him (Kansi) over to America.`

Didn`t US pay a bounty of a million dollars to the people who gave kansi up. If I remember it right, it was claimed by people of his own tribe, who handed him over to the US government.

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Christian Coalition and the Republican party, also known as God`s Only Party (GOP) are in favor of Israel and its policies, because the GOP cannot alienate the CC`s vote bank. It is the ``die hards`` of the CC, and its voters, who go out and vote, while the democracts are busy sipping their lattes on a cold November`s day.

The present Israeli policy, which can be simply summed as ``escalate`` results from the fact Israel and its actions have marginalized the sane elements in the region and have generally, polarized the opinions into an idee fixe, which is confrontational. The Palestinians have not helped in this either and have always provided Tel Aviv with an excuse to shun compromise. The blame also rests with them and they will have to realize that violence will only engender more confrontational policies.

American actions of appesasing Israel also are also reflective that its planned war against Iraq is not really that popular in the region and if, and when it foregoes the diplomatic opitions and attacks Iraq, it might risk an ``Arab revolt``. If, on the other hand, it pressurizes Israel to accomodate the Palestinians, it risks alienating its influence in the region and thus, is eager to keep Israel as a ``beach head`` in the region should the ``Arab revolt`` be realized as a result of its policies vis-a-vis Iraq.

This is not about elections or morality. It is about the reality of power and its pragmatic limitations.

Ciao

Conservative Republicans see Israel as a chance to get liberal Jewish votes and money.

Faced up with declining number of Jews, Jewish inter-marriages and non-observance of their faith the Israeli lobby looks at the Christian conservatives as a source of extra strength.

Hamid Sahib,

You are incorrigible! :)

.......... i say let them build the &8%^ temple and let christ come back to earth and raise lazarus from the dead one more time since he didn`t such a a good job the first time around .......... so then what? ........ i am not afraid - jesus, like abraham and adam before him, was a muslim and when he comes back the ummah will be saved ......... that will teach jerry falwell !

Saq Donuhue tipi-toe round Jerry Falwell a few nights ago...the audience was stocked with those tourists from the Bible Belt who applauded everything the good Rev had to say, from only born agains are going to heaven to an extraordinary soft shoe about his comments on Prophet Mohammad and Islam....who knew charm could travel miles? Anyhoo, to the credit of the rest of the audience-and yes we CAN really suss who comes from around the way versus Arkansas, several American Christians identified themselves as Christians who did not believe/support the Holy Rollers. Much like the struggles amongst moderate Muslims and those other people.
What seems to bind the Christian fundos is the ideology that Jerusalem must be reclaimed for the second coming? Is this any different from some of the messages from Islamacists?

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The Good, The Bad And the Ugly?

Ras

``Would you willingly bond with people who think your faith is inferior to theirs? ``

Good question.

if there is anything Universal about ANY and ALL religions is the -- Holy Hog Wash:

````This drive to show solidarity with Israel is driven, it is said, by interpretations of the Biblical predictions, mainly in Daniel, that the second coming of Christ will occur 7 years from the date that Israel acquires control of the Temple Mount. The Coalition, as would all of Christendom, would hope to be present and accounted for in that event. In current predictions, the starting date for that 7-year period was the 1999 agreement between Israel and Palestine on settling the status of Jerusalem. ````

Only Holy GOD will save us -- from Holy Men with their Holy Predictions about their Holy Places -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho

if there is anything Universal about ANY and ALL religions -- it is -- the Holy Hog Wash:

````This drive to show solidarity with Israel is driven, it is said, by interpretations of the Biblical predictions, mainly in Daniel, that the second coming of Christ will occur 7 years from the date that Israel acquires control of the Temple Mount. The Coalition, as would all of Christendom, would hope to be present and accounted for in that event. In current predictions, the starting date for that 7-year period was the 1999 agreement between Israel and Palestine on settling the status of Jerusalem. ````

Only Holy GOD will save us -- from Holy Men with their Holy Predictions about their Holy Places -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho -- Ho

AmericanExpress:

yes, spend hours analysing how all the various elements are ganging up to screw muslims, the intricacies of the different religoius nexus` etc...

what is the reason for this infatuation with identifying the `zionist-christian-hindu` nexus? A supposed nexus inspired by RELIGIONS? Is it because you want to JUSTIFY your desires for your PERSONAL RELIGIOUS revivalism (justify to yourself or to your fellow muslims)?

nexus, sinister plots, paranoia. ok, maybe it`s not paranoia.

But it has ALL the symptoms of an insecurity complex. and from this drummed up insecurity some muslims want to create an awakening in the masses. `wake up and look what THEY are doing!` is the message.

however, ideals based on slogans and insecurities fail. and muslims have rendered their religion to just that. slogans and insecurities.

ps) i don`t see how the hindutva will collude with christians. pat robertson`s show gives inspiring coverage showing hindus having seen the light and opening their hearts to our lord and saviour Jesus Christ. i don`t think most hindus will have a high opinion of him (i mean pat robertson).

after listening to the likes of pat robertson, i must say that the beard gets the blame for no reason.

a fundo is a fundo. a maulvi is a maulvi. regardless of race, caste, creed, religion or beard.