Why I Am Not A Muslim?
Ameer Afraid December 23, 2002
#45 Posted by stuka on December 26, 2002 7:04:31 am
Ajeet:
``As you mentioned it was just ten years before the Sikh forces lost to the English army composed of hindus soldiers of UP and Bengal.``
True enough. I wasn`t very sure of the exact dates but I knew it was only a few years. The soldiers of UP and Bengal were both Hindu and Muslim. Interestingly, the British East India Company`s Army constituted a majority of native soldiers of whom a vast majority were Bengali, both Hindu and Muslim. At the time there was no concept of ``Martial and Non Martial Races``. Only after 1857 that Bengali recruitment in the Army was reduced, and it was justified under the classification of Bengalis as a Non Martial race.
``Also the main reason for the loss of the Sikh army was the betrayal of the hindu dogra, who were awarded the kingdom of Kashmir as a price for treachery. ``
Well, I somewhat disagree with you. At least based on British accounts (which I believe were comparativly closer to objectivity) the Dogra General Gulab Singh`s defection did make it easier for the British to win, but even if that had not happened, the Sikhs still would have lost. There were plenty of court intrigues and lack of strong leadership in the Sikh kingdom after the death of Ranjit Singh.
``As such there was good reason for the Sikh Army to return the favour.``
Well, as long as we understand that it wasn`t ``the Sikh Army`` but a British led army with mixed composition. The battle for Delhi, where Bahadur Shah Zafar was arrested and his sons were executed, was led by General Hobson and the soldiers were a Mix of Sikhs, Punjabi Mussulmaans as well as Hindu and Muslim regiments of the Bengal Army that had not mutinied.
`` Also it is correct that we call the 1857, the first war of independence, but in fact it was nothing more then a grouping of small kingdoms, who had cooperated with the british all along, but were rebelling for their self interest. ``
Agreed. I think the term of ``First War of Independence`` was coined to counter the British term ``Mutiny. The truth as usual lies somewhere in between. It was more than a Mutiny and less than a war.
``As you mentioned it was just ten years before the Sikh forces lost to the English army composed of hindus soldiers of UP and Bengal.``
True enough. I wasn`t very sure of the exact dates but I knew it was only a few years. The soldiers of UP and Bengal were both Hindu and Muslim. Interestingly, the British East India Company`s Army constituted a majority of native soldiers of whom a vast majority were Bengali, both Hindu and Muslim. At the time there was no concept of ``Martial and Non Martial Races``. Only after 1857 that Bengali recruitment in the Army was reduced, and it was justified under the classification of Bengalis as a Non Martial race.
``Also the main reason for the loss of the Sikh army was the betrayal of the hindu dogra, who were awarded the kingdom of Kashmir as a price for treachery. ``
Well, I somewhat disagree with you. At least based on British accounts (which I believe were comparativly closer to objectivity) the Dogra General Gulab Singh`s defection did make it easier for the British to win, but even if that had not happened, the Sikhs still would have lost. There were plenty of court intrigues and lack of strong leadership in the Sikh kingdom after the death of Ranjit Singh.
``As such there was good reason for the Sikh Army to return the favour.``
Well, as long as we understand that it wasn`t ``the Sikh Army`` but a British led army with mixed composition. The battle for Delhi, where Bahadur Shah Zafar was arrested and his sons were executed, was led by General Hobson and the soldiers were a Mix of Sikhs, Punjabi Mussulmaans as well as Hindu and Muslim regiments of the Bengal Army that had not mutinied.
`` Also it is correct that we call the 1857, the first war of independence, but in fact it was nothing more then a grouping of small kingdoms, who had cooperated with the british all along, but were rebelling for their self interest. ``
Agreed. I think the term of ``First War of Independence`` was coined to counter the British term ``Mutiny. The truth as usual lies somewhere in between. It was more than a Mutiny and less than a war.
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#43 Posted by amit on December 25, 2002 11:27:41 pm
Ameer,
The failure of Islamic civilization is primarily due to intellectual stagnation rather than anything else. In the early years, Islam was able to unleash people`s intellect as is evident from the scholars, philosophers, scientists etc. produced at that time. However, that trend stopped and has virtually disappeared today. In today`s world, you can only compete by your brains and economic prowess. Unfortunately the islamic world is obsessed with blood feuds, suicide bombings, jihad and other useless stuff that does not improve the life of a single muslim. Rather it makes things even worse and generates hatred and anger among non-muslims against muslims. Unless muslims understand this situation and come up with a different strategy to resolve their problems, they will remain trapped where they are.
The failure of Islamic civilization is primarily due to intellectual stagnation rather than anything else. In the early years, Islam was able to unleash people`s intellect as is evident from the scholars, philosophers, scientists etc. produced at that time. However, that trend stopped and has virtually disappeared today. In today`s world, you can only compete by your brains and economic prowess. Unfortunately the islamic world is obsessed with blood feuds, suicide bombings, jihad and other useless stuff that does not improve the life of a single muslim. Rather it makes things even worse and generates hatred and anger among non-muslims against muslims. Unless muslims understand this situation and come up with a different strategy to resolve their problems, they will remain trapped where they are.
#42 Posted by m_souza on December 25, 2002 9:26:37 pm
#31 by DRUMZ on December 24, 2002 4:47pm PT
``m_souza has such a small opinion of himself that the only way he can make himself feel good is to live in the glory of people born hundreds of years before him and who have nothing to do with his lil azz life. ``
C` mon, who doesn`t live in the glory of people born hundreds of years ago before him or her?
When was the Holy Quran written? why do you believe it, follow it blindly, adhere to it rigidly even if it as written around 1300 years ago? You guys feel proud of something which came from a foreign land(Arabic). I don`t want to disrespect any great being but..Why do you have anything to do with a person who was born ages ago and he is your Prophet?
You ignorant drumz, you feel proud of an alien culture but stop others from respecting their own. Indians who feel proud of their ages old vast culture, books etc are at least respecting their very own culture. And they have tried to discontinue everything in their culture which is not so good.
And drumz....mind it. the only way I can make himself feel good is not just ``to live in the glory of people born hundreds of years before him`` as u said...
Indians have made lots of progress in every area.
PS: History is very much a part of us. If their ws no Babar, then temples would not have been destroyed, and hence the Babri masjid would not have been destroyed later on and hence Gujrat riots would not have taken place....so every thing is related with history...we are just a part of this whole big sequence of things
``m_souza has such a small opinion of himself that the only way he can make himself feel good is to live in the glory of people born hundreds of years before him and who have nothing to do with his lil azz life. ``
C` mon, who doesn`t live in the glory of people born hundreds of years ago before him or her?
When was the Holy Quran written? why do you believe it, follow it blindly, adhere to it rigidly even if it as written around 1300 years ago? You guys feel proud of something which came from a foreign land(Arabic). I don`t want to disrespect any great being but..Why do you have anything to do with a person who was born ages ago and he is your Prophet?
You ignorant drumz, you feel proud of an alien culture but stop others from respecting their own. Indians who feel proud of their ages old vast culture, books etc are at least respecting their very own culture. And they have tried to discontinue everything in their culture which is not so good.
And drumz....mind it. the only way I can make himself feel good is not just ``to live in the glory of people born hundreds of years before him`` as u said...
Indians have made lots of progress in every area.
PS: History is very much a part of us. If their ws no Babar, then temples would not have been destroyed, and hence the Babri masjid would not have been destroyed later on and hence Gujrat riots would not have taken place....so every thing is related with history...we are just a part of this whole big sequence of things
#41 Posted by Saminasha on December 25, 2002 9:26:37 pm
This latest church bombing is disgusting. And on top of that we have to read creepy posts on baa baa black sheep, etc....Rid Pakistan of fundo scourge!
#40 Posted by rsaxena on December 25, 2002 6:32:25 pm
re: hamidm
{i guess we all come from the same bad gene pool ............ }
...no no no my man...bakistanis descend from fair, tall, muscular central asians....you are no match for dark, weak, short indians... ;)
{i guess we all come from the same bad gene pool ............ }
...no no no my man...bakistanis descend from fair, tall, muscular central asians....you are no match for dark, weak, short indians... ;)
#39 Posted by DRUMZ on December 25, 2002 4:17:22 pm
These silly stereotypes. What does vegetarianism have to do with being weak?
#38 Posted by hamidm2 on December 25, 2002 4:17:21 pm
rsaxena
...... i guess the indians are not far behind ........ i guess we all come from the same bad gene pool ............
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2605153.stm
``A Christian priest and 14 others have been injured in an attack on a Christmas service in India.
Police say more than 50 armed men stormed a church in Maliapota in the eastern state of West Bengal late on Tuesday. ``
...... i guess the indians are not far behind ........ i guess we all come from the same bad gene pool ............
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2605153.stm
``A Christian priest and 14 others have been injured in an attack on a Christmas service in India.
Police say more than 50 armed men stormed a church in Maliapota in the eastern state of West Bengal late on Tuesday. ``
#37 Posted by rsaxena on December 25, 2002 1:57:53 pm
...while some chowk bakistanis are tickling their behinds over gujarat, christmas is being celebrated in the islamic republic of bakistan...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/12/25/pakistan.church/index.html
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Three people were killed and 14 others were injured in an apparent grenade attack on a Protestant church, Pakistani police said.
A local police official, Malik Iqbal, said no one had claimed responsibility for the attack in Daska, about 40 miles northwest of Lahore.
He said a grenade was hurled through an open front door while the congregation, mostly women and children, were holding a Christmas Day service.
There have been a number of other attacks against Christian institutions in Pakistan in recent months in protest against Pakistan`s support of the U.S. war on terrorism.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/12/25/pakistan.church/index.html
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Three people were killed and 14 others were injured in an apparent grenade attack on a Protestant church, Pakistani police said.
A local police official, Malik Iqbal, said no one had claimed responsibility for the attack in Daska, about 40 miles northwest of Lahore.
He said a grenade was hurled through an open front door while the congregation, mostly women and children, were holding a Christmas Day service.
There have been a number of other attacks against Christian institutions in Pakistan in recent months in protest against Pakistan`s support of the U.S. war on terrorism.
#36 Posted by m_souza on December 25, 2002 7:03:08 am
#34
I am NOT endorsing any brutal killings..not those that happened in the hands of muslims in Godhara by burning the train and killing 60 people. Even worse was what followed lateron.
All I am saying is that the uneducated, unthinking, poor mob of any community can easily be swayed into any such destructive actions by even slightest provocation. So, it should be an effort made by all communities not to have any superiority complex(like that felt by those who think all enuchs went to India). Not to make any personal comments.
`All enuchs went to India`..this statement doesn`t include those Indians who were already staying in India(current India) in 1947. Here, Indians mentioned are those who left that part of India which became Pakistan so they had to leave it...and these people who went to India leaving Paksitan were..Hindus. So, she is talking about Hindus here. That is why I wrote all that. Otherwise, who cares!! We know it well that Pakistanis can never be pleased with India.
And see.. after India started withdrawing its troops from the border after months, I came across comments and letters in Pakistani newspapers that India is a coward country...it could not attack. If India lines up its troops, it is a `bully` and if it withdraws, then it is a coward.
I am NOT endorsing any brutal killings..not those that happened in the hands of muslims in Godhara by burning the train and killing 60 people. Even worse was what followed lateron.
All I am saying is that the uneducated, unthinking, poor mob of any community can easily be swayed into any such destructive actions by even slightest provocation. So, it should be an effort made by all communities not to have any superiority complex(like that felt by those who think all enuchs went to India). Not to make any personal comments.
`All enuchs went to India`..this statement doesn`t include those Indians who were already staying in India(current India) in 1947. Here, Indians mentioned are those who left that part of India which became Pakistan so they had to leave it...and these people who went to India leaving Paksitan were..Hindus. So, she is talking about Hindus here. That is why I wrote all that. Otherwise, who cares!! We know it well that Pakistanis can never be pleased with India.
And see.. after India started withdrawing its troops from the border after months, I came across comments and letters in Pakistani newspapers that India is a coward country...it could not attack. If India lines up its troops, it is a `bully` and if it withdraws, then it is a coward.
#35 Posted by m_souza on December 25, 2002 7:03:08 am
#30
``oon moghloN ka ilzaam mujh per keoN laga raheiN haiN -- vo moghal ancestor tou aap ke bhee rishtedaar ho sakte haiN ``
nahi ho sakte..kyunke mere paas to meri saat peerion kaa hisaab hai..books mein.
And i am not saying they were your rishtedaars...rather i am sure they were not because most of the people converted to Islam lateron and did not come with moghuls.
And ..aap kis duniya mein rehtey hain nasah miyaan..most of the Hindus drink `doodh` as well as eat tarkari..these days many have given up vegetarianism so as to be strong, so as not to be called `cowards` `lilliput hindus` (look at the film stars)and they eat chicken, pork, fish, octopus, prawns... anything they can..
``oon moghloN ka ilzaam mujh per keoN laga raheiN haiN -- vo moghal ancestor tou aap ke bhee rishtedaar ho sakte haiN ``
nahi ho sakte..kyunke mere paas to meri saat peerion kaa hisaab hai..books mein.
And i am not saying they were your rishtedaars...rather i am sure they were not because most of the people converted to Islam lateron and did not come with moghuls.
And ..aap kis duniya mein rehtey hain nasah miyaan..most of the Hindus drink `doodh` as well as eat tarkari..these days many have given up vegetarianism so as to be strong, so as not to be called `cowards` `lilliput hindus` (look at the film stars)and they eat chicken, pork, fish, octopus, prawns... anything they can..
#34 Posted by Manjit on December 24, 2002 9:27:46 pm
m_souza
You owe an apology to nasah. Brother, if you haven`t followed this gentleman and can`t apologise to him, I will beg his forgiveness on your behalf. Ignorance leads us to great error. You have erred greatly. Debate, but if nasah called you silly, reflect upon it in humility. You can only benefit from such reflection, whether you are a hindu, a muslim, or a Christian. This advice is from an army man, who does not shrink from a debate or a fight.
You owe an apology to nasah. Brother, if you haven`t followed this gentleman and can`t apologise to him, I will beg his forgiveness on your behalf. Ignorance leads us to great error. You have erred greatly. Debate, but if nasah called you silly, reflect upon it in humility. You can only benefit from such reflection, whether you are a hindu, a muslim, or a Christian. This advice is from an army man, who does not shrink from a debate or a fight.
#33 Posted by soysauce on December 24, 2002 9:27:46 pm
#27
This is a gem of an article and i don`t wish to sidetrack discussions of it. Therefore this will be my last post in response to you.
Why don`t you reread what you wrote and tell me if it didn`t sound like you were endorsing the pogrom in gujarat? You were implying that they had it coming. You are now implying that since hindus were peace loving (sic) it`s the muslims` fault that they were attacked. It was not pakistanis (who you say have been provoking indians) who were attacked in gujarat. It was indians and gujaratis who happened to be muslim who were murdered and maimed. Are you claiming that gujarati muslims as a group taunted hindus and hence got what they deserved? It is perverse that you`re feeling offended after writing in the vein you did.
This is a gem of an article and i don`t wish to sidetrack discussions of it. Therefore this will be my last post in response to you.
Why don`t you reread what you wrote and tell me if it didn`t sound like you were endorsing the pogrom in gujarat? You were implying that they had it coming. You are now implying that since hindus were peace loving (sic) it`s the muslims` fault that they were attacked. It was not pakistanis (who you say have been provoking indians) who were attacked in gujarat. It was indians and gujaratis who happened to be muslim who were murdered and maimed. Are you claiming that gujarati muslims as a group taunted hindus and hence got what they deserved? It is perverse that you`re feeling offended after writing in the vein you did.
#31 Posted by nasah on December 24, 2002 4:47:38 pm
souza miaN to nasah mahashai:
````And what your Moghul ancestors(were they? are u sure? only some of you, i think) did was an act of cowardice...the looting and plundering of indian temples and cities..````(m_souza)
arre -- arre -- souza miaN -- yeh aap keya kah raheiN haiN -- oon moghloN ka ilzaam mujh per keoN laga raheiN haiN -- vo moghal ancestor tou aap ke bhee rishtedaar ho sakte haiN -- -- uncle mansingh se poochiye --
arre bhaiee -- meiN tou aadhaa Hindu hooN -- tarkaari khata hooN mugur doodh nahee peetaa...
````And what your Moghul ancestors(were they? are u sure? only some of you, i think) did was an act of cowardice...the looting and plundering of indian temples and cities..````(m_souza)
arre -- arre -- souza miaN -- yeh aap keya kah raheiN haiN -- oon moghloN ka ilzaam mujh per keoN laga raheiN haiN -- vo moghal ancestor tou aap ke bhee rishtedaar ho sakte haiN -- -- uncle mansingh se poochiye --
arre bhaiee -- meiN tou aadhaa Hindu hooN -- tarkaari khata hooN mugur doodh nahee peetaa...
#30 Posted by DRUMZ on December 24, 2002 4:47:38 pm
WOW, its like the stupidity has spread.........
This is Textbook: m_souza has such a small opinion of himself that the only way he can make himself feel good is to live in the glory of people born hundreds of years before him and who have nothing to do with his lil azz life.
Jesus the way this fool trivializes everything by making abstract concepts so homogenious, like hes the fukkin spokesman for hinduism.
This is Textbook: m_souza has such a small opinion of himself that the only way he can make himself feel good is to live in the glory of people born hundreds of years before him and who have nothing to do with his lil azz life.
Jesus the way this fool trivializes everything by making abstract concepts so homogenious, like hes the fukkin spokesman for hinduism.
#29 Posted by m_souza on December 24, 2002 2:14:39 pm
#26 by yusafkhan on December 24, 2002 10:44am PT
``The perpetrators of Gujrat are cowards; to prove their worth they should have chosen a more level playing field like Kashmir (or if they felt really brave my home city of Peshawar)``
in kashmir..three women beheaded for not wearing burqa..also children beheaded by terrorists....everyday they kill innocent people...so who is playing the game in a wrong way..a cowardly way
yusuf..i don`t believe that being labelled `cowards` by muslims again and again, justifies the killing and the riots in gujarat...all i wanted to say was such remarks stay on in the minds of people.
Normally the moghul invaders formed this impression about ancient hindus that they are cowards because they could be easily overpowered and converted. Fact is they were the easy going, non-violent vegetarian type so could be influenced easily because of their sucular religon that it is supposed to b e, as hinduism doesn`t stop anyone from reading books of other religion ..it is a vast all embracing religion....so ancient hindus were influenced easily.
Quran strictly prohibits even vague interest in any other religion...according to it...Islam is the only true religon...that only people who believe in Allah are believers and will go to heavens, others will be doomed. So, no muslim can think of converting...but that doesn`t mean they are brave..fact is they are scared like hell...of this jannat and jhanum thing...they are scared of even wishign someone `happy diwali` ke kahin jhanum me naa jana par jaye
And that labelling of hindus as `cowards` goes on till now. Even the offsprings of those `coward hindus` who were converted by moghuls, go on to call the present day hindus as `cowards`..`kafirs` etc.. Ironic, isn`t it??
And this is all is leading to revenge kind of feeling in indians...so yusuf i repeat..i don`t believe that being labelled `cowards` by muslims again and again, justifies the killing and the riots in gujarat...all i wanted to say was such remarks stay on in the minds of people.
try it with Buddhism(which came out of hinduism and has similar non-violent philosophies, i have read a lot about it)...call them names again and again..and they will also become `sher`..
``The perpetrators of Gujrat are cowards; to prove their worth they should have chosen a more level playing field like Kashmir (or if they felt really brave my home city of Peshawar)``
in kashmir..three women beheaded for not wearing burqa..also children beheaded by terrorists....everyday they kill innocent people...so who is playing the game in a wrong way..a cowardly way
yusuf..i don`t believe that being labelled `cowards` by muslims again and again, justifies the killing and the riots in gujarat...all i wanted to say was such remarks stay on in the minds of people.
Normally the moghul invaders formed this impression about ancient hindus that they are cowards because they could be easily overpowered and converted. Fact is they were the easy going, non-violent vegetarian type so could be influenced easily because of their sucular religon that it is supposed to b e, as hinduism doesn`t stop anyone from reading books of other religion ..it is a vast all embracing religion....so ancient hindus were influenced easily.
Quran strictly prohibits even vague interest in any other religion...according to it...Islam is the only true religon...that only people who believe in Allah are believers and will go to heavens, others will be doomed. So, no muslim can think of converting...but that doesn`t mean they are brave..fact is they are scared like hell...of this jannat and jhanum thing...they are scared of even wishign someone `happy diwali` ke kahin jhanum me naa jana par jaye
And that labelling of hindus as `cowards` goes on till now. Even the offsprings of those `coward hindus` who were converted by moghuls, go on to call the present day hindus as `cowards`..`kafirs` etc.. Ironic, isn`t it??
And this is all is leading to revenge kind of feeling in indians...so yusuf i repeat..i don`t believe that being labelled `cowards` by muslims again and again, justifies the killing and the riots in gujarat...all i wanted to say was such remarks stay on in the minds of people.
try it with Buddhism(which came out of hinduism and has similar non-violent philosophies, i have read a lot about it)...call them names again and again..and they will also become `sher`..
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