Kissinger of Death

re:#101 by ali87
It has now become fashionable for Pakistani muslims in this and other forums to quote Gujarat pogrom whenever they want to embarass hindus. But the world today is troubled by Islamic terrorism, with its epicenter in Pakistan and NOT by hindu fundamentalism. India and US are forging a security alliance like the one with Singapore, Australia. Check out this news in Nation and think about why this is happening to Pakistanis and not the vily Indoos:
url: http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/241202/main/top5.htm

Sridhar

#100 by ssdhillon on December 18, 2002 3:58pm PT

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My problem with people like you is that your criticism of the US is very insincere. You are trying to prove that the US is to blame for everything.
On the other hand you defend Saudi Arabia...the chief supporter of terrorism in the world.
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From what I can make out if this criticism came from a Hindu or any other non-Muslim then it can be seen in its true light. Thus you offer no reason to declining my argument(so can I assume that you accept essentially accept the arugment?) only it is not good since it is insincere on my part not to blame Saudi Arabia along side.

Read my posts again. I have not offered any justification or analysis of saudi actions. only that their actions should be judged by the same rules that apply to hindus in Gujrat as well the americcan massacares around the world. Also you if you read my earlier posts you i have clearly said that im not any fan of what the Saudi do or dont do.

That said reading your posts in chowk it seems fair to me that you subscribe to the theory of denoucing actions of Muslim Invaders over a 500 year history of India and thus holding present day muslims accountable for it.

Now how un-orignal of you. You are vary of the leftist historians that much you have admitted(Im not to enamoured of them either). However it is intellectual dishonesty to let our like or dislike cloud over better judgement. The need to examine impatrially facts wether they come from biased sources or unbiased sources. It our duty to sift the fact from Ideology.
Now you dont do that you replace it with another ideology. (The BJP, RSS kind)

Lets us say that we go with your arguments and do admit what you say about Muslim Invaders (which I accept as a fact even if you exxagarate it quite a bit). In nearly 5 thousand years of history muslim invaders came about 500 years back. Even during this 500 years they ruled paritaly or through local kings and appointes.

You want to say that the hindu kings were a peaceable lot? They had courtly arguments instead of wars?? They did not kill one another in the name of various sects? They had no action in eliminating the Buddhists(you are lucky that there are few records of that). You are saying that Hindu kings did not loot temples when they conqured and raided neghibouring kingdoms? (Is it not a fact that temples were a political statements and a vehicle of power dispensation and housed many riches and often royal treasuries, many aspects of the temples had little to do with religon)

You are saying that in the thousands of years of history all the muder and mayhem was done by muslims only?

Im not denying that many muslim invaders killed natives in war and at times in punishment many time not justified. However this was nothing different from what anyone else was doing at that time. On the other hand there is also evidience once they consolidated thier empires the were as fair (as much as you can ask any one in their social context to be) or as punitive as any one else. Aslo there is plenty of evidience to inidcate that they did not anhiliate the hindus (800 millon are proof they did not do that)
Now then comes the isue of snatched land(pakistan and bangladesh). Now there are nearly 400 million muslims in the south Asia nearly 40 percent of the total people. These rations were similar earlier 50 years back , 100, years back and even earlier.

On the earlier hand look at the population of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Central Asia these are quite small compared to India(undivided) and have been so historically for a very long time. So people did come and Invade from these lands and those people themselves were converts to Islam. Simlarly most people in South Asia are of native origin(much as you would like to belive otherwise) If they accepted Islam under force then it goes to say that Hinduism has been weak in its ideological moorings that it could not adapt these people back to Hinduism.

So your complaint boils down to why these people converted and thus giving you a sense of inferiority in your own land. If you are angry about that then you suppourt a thinking that people are not free to choose (even if that choice is passive in present time as most choose because they are born into Islam)their way of life.
It does not help that Hinduism while it tolerates many ways of life(you can choose your own god or way of life)but at the same time makes structures which (which incidently form the basis of socitey for thousands of years) have discriminated (the dalits,, now who were those people? ... that is another story)heavily against large sections of the population to the extent not considering them as part of their socitey(usually far less in important than animals.. Read what your Ideological gurus say from time to time about Dalits Vs Cow).

Now would do you worry about the Dalits who you have treated even worse than the Invaders have treated hindus as?? Now can I call your complaints as Insincere?? Do you acknowlege that in human treatment?? Im not sure. Most of India does not. (Witness how nothign will come out of the Harayana cow skinning incident. )

Yes I agree that there are great humanist principles in various texts of yours I also see the reality that is far from the Ideal (Now this is your compalint about Islam and muslims too) of the peacefull people living in harmony with not only men but animals as well as nature.

Read the recent political history of India to develve in to the myth of peacefull nature of Hinduism.

2000 muslims killed in Gujrat, 3000 Sikhs killed in Delhi roits. Plenty of condemenation (including by people who participated in in them) will any action be taken against these peace loving people?? Guess what ? You know the answer. You only look for condemanation. Empty words!! Words brefet of action have no meaning.

So now comes your protests against Saudi Arabia(notice im at present not offering any opinoin about their actions ... In case you jump the gun again) terrorists etc.
Let us look at the number of people killed by them and consider also why. Then count the number of muslims and other minority and dalits(most action can be linked to the Idealogicial moorings of the Hindu right wether it comes in a congress rule or Bjp rule)

But even that is nothing. Consider the people killed by the West in the crusades, occupationof forigen land, Colonial ism, marxsim(including subjugation of many musim countries now free from their rule), vietnam the tally adds up to nearly 30 million or more. I do not want to disregard the killing of millions by muslims more recently in bangaldesh and in the iran iraq war and in afirca etc,

here My point is that much of this can be laid at the door of muslims but any one will be hardpressed to justify that as a islamic action.

However the crusades, colonialism, the recent world wars, now american Imperialism there is a common thread and that is the justificaion of what is called Manifest Destiny. This concept has not changed for hundreds of years and is still being touted as ``US uses its power responsibly``, ``Colatteral Damage`` ``Worth the sacrifice(of others lives??!! not their own!!)`` `` America is destined to be the leader of the world`` ``We will not allow any country to become as powerful as us miitarily or economicaly`` ``American Intrests (There fore if any time American intrests in pakistan conficts with Indias then India will have to bow to it)``
``Globalisation, it is inevitable they say and want to browbeat every country into it

Globalisaiton of economy means only free flow of goods and Captial and not labour which forms the third leg of any economy, similary any and ever commodity which gives any advantage to developing nation is regulated in import, thus textile quotas for imports, and High subsidies if agriculture so that poor countries cant make money from exporting the only thing they can produce cheaply or constantly pushing the bar on eviormental norms for goods produced for export to US , similarly a menaka gandhi withthe help of PETA can protest against slaguhter of camels while all kinds of exotic meat incluidng deer, turkey, crocodile, dogs, Kangroo, etc is leagly available in US. Similarly Leather exports can be stopped from India for inhuman treatment of animals while transporting them from source to markets and slaughter houses.

Face it Dhillon they have got us covered from all bases.

History they say repeats itself (perhaps the usaid thing is that ``if you dont learn from it``) a couple of hundred years back the eurpoeans came to various countries and taking advantage of lose confedration of the then state system got landing and ownership rights for small hamlets (like bombay , pondicherry, Madras, calcutta)Initally they used these terroritries as landing points for their ships for trade. Then they subverted these by making small towns and inviting traders to setupshop there promising very minimal taxes (do you wonder why small nations like singapore, hongkong, oman, dubai, Qutar, Kuwait and now Chile are favoirites of the west??) Subsequently gains from conqured lands (in terms of ship loads of silver and Plantations income based on slavery)in the americas enabled them to finance these entery ports in the Indian land mass(Now you know what is the value of pet dicators and cheap oilis). They started giving out loans to the zamindars and sponsring small troop formations in the local power brokers like zamindars etc , then with this basis of money and ownership(indirect though) of troops they penetrated the social structure of the Inidan states. The offered to mediate (mixing trade, finiancing and peace keeping roles by virtue of financing troops of local zamindars) in local disputes and in a few decades they made themselves indispensable to the local patorns. All this was much before the East India company was formed. Subsequently the bought their own armed men from eruope as well as started maintianing thier own band of paid local troops (to guard their peaceful havens) Were their intentions just to trade?? Indian traders as well as Arabs have traded without the need to get bases for nearly a thousand years. Sometime back in europe they agressively fought each other for religon and initated Crusades usually they never compromised on any where anhiiation or the other was usually thier goal. When they turned to the rejection of older religous edicts and slowly moved to protestant movemnt the took upon trade and occupation of forigen lands to boost their strength against each other.
Thus conquest and anhiliation of Millions of natives was justified as ``Manifest Destiny`` in americas and austrila and those who were weak they had Aparthied impsosed on them.
the key was to manufacture a reason to justify anhilliation where possible and where not complete subjucation and where even that was not possible there was ``White mans burden`` ie to keep the natives from killing each other (you and I should thank our stars that arabs did not subscribe to such notions).they did not care about the religous affliation of people (missonaries were used just as atool in a afterthought) their only intention was to grab land and wealth by all means possible the had little use for people.

Now we have a similar situation there are debates going on about how America can be a Just Imperial power (dont tell me you are not aware).
most of the world is surrounded by such pliable entreports(small pliable countries ruled by despots and subjugated allies under american military protection. who have pacificst constituion which regect any miitary role for their countries) which dance at the tune of America. America funds and finances most of the business around the world directly or indirectly thorugh its companies.
Now there are more american troops in more countries and more military officers, america allied business men and politicans than any time in history. America does not love democracy it prefers to deal with dictators as they dont ask questions they only quote a price.

With past and continuing action this scenarion is stirkingly similar to what it was before colonialism. Even same paralels are there while US companes and their patents are rigorusly protectd as well as their investments (wheter they bribed officals or not)are procted native recources are stolen (rembeer the basmati, neem, haldi and the genomoe mapping of biodiversity ) or killed by the ingenous means (Genticaly modified crops which require that the farmer buy seed from american companies every time he wants to sow as the seed produced does not natrualy germinate).
What next will you wait for Dhillonji? Till they buldoze the feilds in punjab to make way for golf courses(buy from america we have plenty of sulprus agriucltural produce--- which by the way was paid through heavy subsidy).

In case you mistake all this to conclude that I hate america I just want to say that I will protect my self against their deeds but I dont need to hate them for it just their actions. This is not to be confused with what my or your opinon about their very good social structrue in US it self. But forigen policy is another thing. More than 95% americans have to slog for their keep the alternative extreme poverty. They hardly have the time or inclination to see what the govt(controlled by the big business and its lobbies--- dont you love the concept of leagal lobbying??) does abroad The media never independent of the big business control toes in the line of the Govt be cause it promotes its intrests and has no stake in informing the masses of the role of the Govt abroad feeds it with black and white stories.

So Dhillonji our respective greviances are just loose change compared to the big threat we have before us in form of the imperal US. Just put it out of your mind that I hate them and love the Saudis. Hate cant acomplish much as Gandhi(Now dont call him leftist or a coward) preached and Godse and now Modi and Sharon have shown in their own preverse way and this is what the (now i know you wont belive it) Quran had informed some 1400 years back.

#99 by ali87 on December 17, 2002 10:02pm PT

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Looks like all of Islamic countries hate US therefore it is to reason the rest of the world loves US..

Smart way of gauging the world opinion man.. keep it up.

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My problem with people like you is that your criticism of the US is very insincere. You are trying to prove that the US is to blame for everything.
On the other hand you defend Saudi Arabia...the chief supporter of terrorism in the world.

Save me the sarcasm........I can also come up with a couple of wise-ass comments like these.

#88 by ssdhillon on December 11, 2002 7:08am PT

<>

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Hmm... Dhillon ji looks like you like to take polls world wide. Probably your method goes like this.

Looks like all of Islamic countries hate US therefore it is to reason the rest of the world loves US..

Smart way of gauging the world opinion man.. keep it up.

````Kissinger has resigned from heading the commission due to conflict of interests````(hari)

GOOD RIDDANCE

to hassann #51

no hassann you read carefully: i did not say that kissinger authored the domino theory, i said he was part of the same establishment that came up with ideas like the domino t... that club includes McNamara.

i hold exactly the opposite sentiment as you, when you say that kissinger was a strategic thinker... where has that kind of thinking got us?

and you clumsily have sidestepped my simple line on kissinger:
``Kissinger is very well known for having argued that US interest is a reason in and of itself. It has nothing to do with moral consideration.``

that kind of american policymaking is getting us all in a world of trouble...

the kind of men that are kissinger, mcnamara, and of their generation and homegrown--altaf gauhar-- i wish had never existed...




on December 9, 2002 11:49am PT
Rehan:

Your observations are factually wrong and flawed although I believe that Kissinger is not the best man for this job. Kissnger does have a sense of history and he alongwith Nixon in fact changed the course of history.

Kissinger was not the person who started the Viet Nam war, nor he was the person who brought the peace to the Middle East. The so called Domino Theory was not his invention. The left leaning liberals of Kennedy era including Robert Mcnamara started this Viet Nam War.

Kissinger and Nixon started reducing the forces in Nam gradually to save the honour and prestige of the USA. Read and you will find that his efforts were mainly to negotiate orderly withdrawal.

You may not like it, but he is strategic thinker of the World affairs and there is hardly anyone who has come along to guide American foreign policy.

I will say that Clinton in his second term emerged as a president with a first hand knowledge of World. He followed centrist policies.
I know that some readers will condemn his personal character but that would be an immature and idiotic response.

********Latest News****************

Newswire indicate Kissinger has resigned from heading the commission due to conflict of interests.

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Arjun,

`But the fact that Dubya was in the guard or Cheney hasnt served has no bearing on the iraq policy`.

It is not a question of whether, a military person is, or is not a better person to make the decisions at the political level. The point is morality of a person who hid behind excuses, when it was his turn to serve in the armed forces, going for an avoidable war, and risking other peoples lives.

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{{i don`t think anyone said that, you`re just causing trouble :) as usual.}}

scouty,

Aw, c`mon sis, I`m just giving credit where credit is due--& you accuse me of ``causing trouble``:)!

It wasnt ``anyone`` who said that---MOIS said that !!!

Considering the population growth rate of Pakistan, you Pakistani shernian can not only out-breed Indian stris, but probably boast one of the highest rates in the world!

Let me HUMBLY surmise that you Pakistani ladies just reserve your incredible beauty ONLY for your husbands` pleasure & wont share it with the rest of the world---like in a demeaning beauty contest...

Aaap shareef devian kisi se kam nahin!!

er...either that , or your handsome Pakistani male counterparts have absolutely NO clue of what contraception means!!:)))

For all those Pakistanis who think that America is a reliable friend:

Kissinger in his book ``Years of Renewal`` says that the US had already conceded the independence of Bangladesh, India was aware of it, but India wanted to humiliate Pakistan and that is the only reason India went to war with Pakistan. So, there goes US support for the territorial integrity of Pakistan.

The US with equal alacrity declared its support for a ``One China`` policy and abandoned Taiwan under Kissinger.

That same China that keeps making noises about uniting Taiwan with the Motherland doesn`t say a single word about the Republic of Mongolia, a far larger country that seceded from China in 1924 with Russian support. It does look like Russia is a more reliable partner.

# 87 by AzadMunna on December 10, 2002 9:46pm PT
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Chinese hate America & Indians hate America except for VHp RSS & BJP latelly .who have Agnotri as Ambassador at large for the first time or 48 yrs India hated America & cordial with russia.
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That is not true. The ordinary guy in India has a lot of admiration for the US. India was more friendly with Russia because Nehru believed in a socialist system. In any case he believed in non-allignment rather than taking sides in the cold war.

BTW it was not the common man burning flags. The commies(or the socialists) were. They still do. That is the nature of their politics. That is probably the reason they could never do well in more than two states(W. Bengal and Kerala). Even in those states they did not win on an anti - US agenda. It was more anti-capitalist, pro- labour union etc etc.


“Same is true in Pakistan...some support in Admin & less among th people .”

The situation in India is not the same as Pakistan. The common man in Pakistan is taught day in and day out that Israel and US are evil. That is not the case in India. The truth is exactly the opposite. In India the ruling class was historically very socialist(George Fernandes kicked out IBM and Coke the last time he had some power). They were more anti – US than the common man.

ssdhillon #80 I will grant you that Aamir could write more clearly. In fact I will add that I dont generally read Aamir`s posts since he makes them illegible by intermingling quotes from others with his own comments, leaving yards of white space, and so forth. I think he is a smart fellow though, but if he cant be bothered to write clearly, I just skip his posts.

sadna#60

``but the environment and social conditioning in which these choices are made are also someone`s responsibility.
``

Good point. The truth is I dont know the answer. May be the so called ``free will`` is indeed not so free as you imply. May be our ``free choices`` even in our personal sphere are conditioned by the social norms. So there is obviously a limit to my argument; exactly where that limit is unclear to me. Perhaps that limit depends upon specific situations...

The example you gave underscores how many of us actually become a slave of the ``expected`` social behaviors. Nothing is more annoying than to listen to the fake World Peace speech from the beauty queens. One wonders do they know the complexity of what they talk about. I regard these paegents as sort of frivolous activities. But I oppose any attempt by the thekedars of morality, who are immoral themselves, to
ban it.

PS There are two interesting ``labels`` in the American language- cool and nerd. Somehow both are incomprehensible to me :-)

[ #76 by AmericanExpress on December 10, 2002 1:25pm PT
...
AND THEN YOU HAVE REDUCED LIFE TO TRIVIALITY FOR YOU WOMEN FOLK SO MUCH THAT THEY THINK BODY WEIGHT DETERMINES WHO SHOULD LIVEAND WHO NOT .

Weight-gain, illness drives top model to death ...]

Couldn`t this girl`s thyroid problems be behind her depression? In that case at least partly the doctor treating her was responsible. Indian doctors are not the best in the world. Also if this problem was there right from childhood then parent`s responsibility is also there. But in India there is no concept of mental illness. People frown upon pill popping so people do not go in time for early diagnosis. When at last violence, jadoo tona and pooja path does not work then they go for medical advice.

-ew

#78 by tahmed32 on December 10, 2002 2:35pm PT

It is extremely painful to read aamir`s posts. I had to read them a couple of times before I could figure out what he was trying to say. I am not trying to prove I am a english babu....whatever that means. Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake.

#71 by GhalibZaman

Is it any wonder that US is considered the Most Hated nation in the world.
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You mean in the Islamic world right??

The 2billion+ people in China and India (Not to mention hundreds of millions in South America) seems to love the US.

ssdhillon #73: you point to some misspelt words by aamir and ask him which madrassah he went to. Being always pleased to prick babuenglishmen of your kind, I am glad to point out that in writing ``Can’t buy a descent keyboard`` you betray similar spelling problems on your part.

PS: I needed to pick on some jerk on chowk today. arjun is stale meat by now, and jay is undergoing treatment for insanity. so thanks for providing some variety on chowk. :-)

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# 59 Aamir

Can’t buy a descent keyboard….Looks like the Wahabi funds to your madrassa have dried up.

Add Trent Lott to the list of Foot in Mouth in regards to his comments at Strom ``Dixiecrat and Proud`` Thurman`s retirement party...anyone see the internet image parody of ``We Weren`t Soldiers``?

Arjun,

To get back to a comment you had made about my preferring military people in politics...Sahib, you are well aware that I am a except in extraordinary cases, a pacifist...I do know people who have served in the US military and a good number chose that route for financial reasons, youth, lack of options. If their feelings about nationalism were a bit ambigious before, they arent when these workers had completed their duty- they question the constant militaristic standoffs....while the chickenhawks who went awol are chomping at the chains...and whose blood is it? All of our blood....

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WORTH REPEATING:
Is it any wonder that US is considered the Most Hated nation in the world.
Uncle Toms not to worry. US likes your kind.


email this to all.

How did Iraq get its weapons? We sold them
By Neil Mackay and Felicity Arbuthnot

THE US and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological wea pons of mass destruction.
Reports by the US Senate`s committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

Classified US Defence Dep-artment documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.

The Senate committee`s rep orts on `US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq`, undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.

One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers` City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.

The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.

The Senate report also makes clear that: `The United States provided the government of Iraq with `dual use` licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programmes.`

This assistance, according to the report, included `chemical warfare-agent precursors, chem ical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment`.

Donald Riegle, then chairman of the committee, said: `UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licences issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq`s chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programmes.`

Riegle added that, between January 1985 and August 1990, the `executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licences for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record`.

It is thought the information contained in the Senate committee reports is likely to make up much of the `evidence of proof` that Bush and Blair will reveal in the coming days to justify the US and Britain going to war with Iraq. It is unlikely, however, that the two leaders will admit it was the Western powers that armed Saddam with these weapons of mass destruction.

However, Bush and Blair will also have to prove that Saddam still has chemical, biological and nuclear capabilities. This looks like a difficult case to clinch in view of the fact that Scott Ritter, the UN`s former chief weapons inspector in Iraq, says the United Nations des troyed most of Iraq`s wea pons of mass destruction and doubts that Saddam could have rebuilt his stocks by now.

According to Ritter, between 90% and 95% of Iraq`s weapons of mass destruction were des troyed by the UN. He believes the remainder were probably used or destroyed during `the ravages of the Gulf War`.

Ritter has described himself as a `card-carrying Republican` who voted for George W Bush. Nevertheless, he has called the president a `liar` over his claims that Saddam Hussein is a threat to America.

Ritter has also alleged that the manufacture of chemical and biological weapons emits certain gases, which would have been detected by satellite. `We have seen none of this,` he insists. `If Iraq was producing weapons today, we would have definitive proof.`

He also dismisses claims that Iraq may have a nuclear weapons capacity or be on the verge of attaining one, saying that gamma-particle atomic radiation from the radioactive materials in the warheads would also have been detected by western surveillance.

The UN`s former co-ordinator in Iraq and former UN under-secretary general, Count Hans von Sponeck, has also told the Sunday Herald that he believes the West is lying about Iraq`s weapons programme.

Von Sponeck visited the Al-Dora and Faluja factories near Baghdad in 1999 after they were `comprehensively trashed` on the orders of UN inspectors, on the grounds that they were suspected of being chemical weapons plants. He returned to the site late in July this year, with a German TV crew, and said both plants were still wrecked.

`We filmed the evidence of the dishonesty of the claims that they were producing chemical and biological weapons,` von Sponeck has told the Sunday Herald. `They are indeed in the same destroyed state which we witnessed in 1999. There was no trace of any resumed activity at all.`

Iraq Indicates Names of Arms Suppliers in Document
Mon December 9, 2002 03:32 PM ET
By Evelyn Leopold
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Iraq`s long declaration of its past weapons programs is expected to include names of foreign suppliers, disclosures that may be embarrassing for nations on the U.N. Security Council.

A table of contents, circulated to the Security Council on Monday, says Iraq listed ``procurements`` of its nuclear programs as well as imported chemical precursors and foreign technical assistance for its chemical arms programs.

Under biological weapons, the index says 33 pages are devoted to ``acquisition of equipment, material, supplies and empty munitions containers for all phases of the program.``

The table, contained in a covering letter from Baghdad`s Foreign Minister Naji Sabri, lists all of Iraq`s banned weapons programs, but does not indicate if any arms were procured after U.N. sanctions were imposed in August 1990.

In the past, sensitive information, has not been disclosed by U.N. weapons inspection units. Companies around the world, which cooperated with the United Nations did so on condition they not be identified publicly, although the United States and others are presumed to have access to such information.

But this time all 15 Security Council members are to get the report, which means it could leak to the press quickly.

Unknown is whether the United States and other council members will try to repress this part of Iraq`s 12,000-page declaration, delivered to the United Nations on Sunday.

Washington now has the sole copy of the report, which it is expected to distribute to Russia, Britain, France and China, the other permanent council members.

The U.N. Security Council decided on Friday to purge the document of information that could lead to weapons proliferation, such as how to make a bomb. But no decision has been made on information about the suppliers.

President Saddam Hussein`s government met a Dec. 8 deadline called for last month in a crucial Security Council resolution that sets the ground rules for new tough weapons inspections and give Iraq one more chance to disarm or face ``serious consequences.``

The Bush administration intends to show that significant information about any illegal weapons programs will put Baghdad in ``material breach`` of resolution 1441, adopted on Nov. 8, which would allow Washington to go to war.

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Ref scout #62

[arjun_m #49, ``Umm..isnt that an evolutionary instinct? Beautiful women are preferred because they are more likely to bear children who have a higher chance of surival?``

what a load of bull.....healthy women are preferred.... correct me if i`m wrong, when a guy sees a beautiful woman, he doesn`t instinctively think about her capacity to bear children.]

You are both right and wrong. A professor studied Western concepts of beauty as expressed by the selection of Miss America and other beauty pageants and came to the conclusion that the waist-to-hips ratio of 0.7 is the ideal female figure. In all the beauty pageants, the winners fell in the range of 0.68 to 0.72 for the waist-to-hips ratio. This ratio is adequate for healthy child-bearing.

I am kicking myself for not studying sociology and becoming a professor for I could have been applying for research grants in this area. As usual, somebody else beat me to it: in this case, Prof. Devendra Singh of the University of Houston. A Desi, would you believe it?

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[ #10 by Saminasha on December 7, 2002 7:14am PT
einstein,
You are aware that your namesake was quite a progressive?....Go see the movie and then talk....also Noam Chomsky`s got a doc. about him.... ]

No thanks, I will pass.

Movies. Books. These are ``kind of sort of`` religions of USA. Freedom of information is religionized in USA. Information is purveyed and consumed with religious fervor. Didn`t I say my prayer five times a day? Didn`t I watch CNN? May God save me from such religion(s).

-ew

hamidm2 #47, ``..... it is not an ``either/or`` thing - as long as she gets a minimum of 1400 on her SAT (which she did), she can do anything she wants .........``

granted she can do anything she wants, but would you HONESTLY be happy if she decided to put a great SAT score on the back burner to fulfill the beauty pageant nonsense?

``and really, it is not a question of what you or i or urstruly think is right and proper - we all have the right to do or not do something, we simply don`t have the right to tell other people what to do and then if they don`t do it go on a burning and killing rampage ........``

i`m not condoning burning/killing because i don`t believe in something, but anyone with a little common sense knows the actual worth of beauty pageants. people just don`t win the Nobel Prize for beauty pageants.
and the sooner women realize it, the better.

``........ and, oh by the way, mrs hamidm watched the entire victoria`s secret fashion show, even though i got thoroughly bored after the first five minutes and wanted to switch to cnn..........and here is a woman with enough brains for a clan of mad mullahs and their harem of virgins ......... ``

maybe she was thinking about buying the lingerie. besides, modeling by profession is a slightly different concept than beauty pageants.

arjun_m #49, ``Umm..isnt that an evolutionary instinct? Beautiful women are preferred because they are more likely to bear children who have a higher chance of surival?``

what a load of bull.....healthy women are preferred.... correct me if i`m wrong, when a guy sees a beautiful woman, he doesn`t instinctively think about her capacity to bear children.

``urstruly is getting his undies in a know because the contests are ``demeaning to women``....i dont see the women participating of their own free will expressing this sentiment.``

why would they......you`re kind of stupid.

shankar bhai #56, ``beauty pagents are necessary for pretty women...
where else can a pretty girl stand on stage in front of millions & say things like ``if i get crowned `miss world`, i will work for world peace!``-- & be taken seriously!?:) ``

it`s painful to see that. someone should do a study on how many beauty pageant winners actually went on to do something substantial....except for vanessa williams with her lovely voice.

``afterall, pakistani women are the leaders of world morality...the most efficient breeding machines in the world...thanks to their men who have trained them so well... ``

i don`t think anyone said that, you`re just causing trouble :) as usual.
considering the population of India, we might say Indian women are the most `efficient breeding machines.` ;)

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Pankaj #58
No question, everyone must have the inalienable right to their individual choices and we must uphold it, but the environment and social conditioning in which these choices are made are also someone`s responsibility.

For example, my very talented cousin who grew up in white suburban US would relate how girls didnot like to ask questions in class in high school because the teachers and their classmates tended to `stereotype` such girls as nerds. I doubt that sort of negative connotation was associated with the prom homecoming queen. Thats undoubtedly one reason why for example, fewer girls choose to go for the science and engineering disciplines in the US. Whereas in India, education of ANY kind is still viewed in the middle class as making a girl more fit to tackle an uncertain future (often more fit merely to be married off), so often half the engineering class is female. Which individual choice/social conditioning is `better`?

As far as holding beauty contests or Valentine day celebrations are concerned, I regard it as a fundamental privilege of participants. Everyone has a personal sphere of activities and a public sphere of interactions with the society. Any act which does not harm any other person directly or interfere with anyone else`s freedom is a ``personal act``. I resent any interference in this ``personal sphere`` by the ``thekedars of morality``, be it Mullah, VHP or any one else. If somebody wants to participate in a beauty contest, she is making a personal decision that doesn`t directly harm the others. If you dont want to watch a paegent or consider it a depravity, change the channel and watch some thing more ``moral``. Let me define according to this view what constitutes immoral. If you cheat your partner in a business or accept a bribe, it is a ``public act`` since your act directly harms someone else. Such kinds of acts would be called immoral. Most of these ``thekedars of morality`` are mired in corruption and they have some temerity to ban Valentine`s Day Celebration/beauty paegent calling it immoral !!! The right thinking people need to get together to defend the liberties of a person in this ``personal sphere`` before the thekedars of morality take over.

# 55 AAMIR
*******************************8
Its one thing Madison ave .would like us to belive that but Elizabeth Taylor marrie many men for other reasons including a Construction worker Larry Fortado (?)Financillay independent women dont care for degree of wealth.
***********************

In which Madrassa did you learn your english. Your posts are almost impossible to understand.

So now Liz Taylor represents the ``Financillay independent`` woman........Now I really want to know which madrassa you went to.

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scouty,

beauty pagents are necessary for pretty women...
where else can a pretty girl stand on stage in front of millions & say things like ``if i get crowned `miss world`, i will work for world peace!``-- & be taken seriously!?:)

wow..mullah urstruly actually went to a pakistani beauty pagent?!...
tauba tauba...
if pakistani women start doing these things, then i`m afraid the world is going to the dogs...
afterall, pakistani women are the leaders of world morality...the most efficient breeding machines in the world...thanks to their men who have trained them so well...

hassann #51 You may also credit Kissinger with being Nixon`s agent in engineering the rapprochement with China. This was a strategic move that made the world a safer place for everyone. Also it seems that during these times Kissinger made full use of the limelight to, shall we say, enrich his personal life (it used to be said that he was ``Kissinger by day, kissing her by night``). Poor Clinton tried to pull off the same trick with disastrous results. Credit Kissinger for being strategic in both foreign policy and in personal affairs, or you may consider him merely lucky he did not have political enemies who were as ruthless as the Gingrich republicans. Either way, Clinton got fried, while Kissinger became a celebrity for doing the same thing.

Rehan:

Your observations are factually wrong and flawed although I believe that Kissinger is not the best man for this job. Kissnger does have a sense of history and he alongwith Nixon in fact changed the course of history.

Kissinger was not the person who started the Viet Nam war, nor he was the person who brought the peace to the Middle East. The so called Domino Theory was not his invention. The left leaning liberals of Kennedy era including Robert Mcnamara started this Viet Nam War.

Kissinger and Nixon started reducing the forces in Nam gradually to save the honour and prestige of the USA. Read and you will find that his efforts were mainly to negotiate orderly withdrawal.

You may not like it, but he is strategic thinker of the World affairs and there is hardly anyone who has come along to guide American foreign policy.

I will say that Clinton in his second term emerged as a president with a first hand knowledge of World. He followed centrist policies.
I know that some readers will condemn his personal character but that would be an immature and idiotic response.

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hamidm2 #47
``they seem to have their heads screwed on right when it comes to beauty paegents ``

IMO, the Indian attitude is rather schizophrenic. Amitabh Bachchan`s co suffered huge losses because protests in Bangalore forced the Ms World event to leave India and his company is reportedly still paying off its debts.

On the other hand the Indian Ms Worlds and Ms Universes are celebrated as heroines and minor beauty pageants are proliferating.

A few `culture-preservers` got the UP govt. to ban pagaents and there is always an uproar about Valentine`s Day. But I have never heard these pious folks holding any protests against dowry or foeticide or degrading stereotypes of women in Indian movies !

I am schizophrenic too and cannot support this proliferation of pagaents but if an Aishwarya Rai or any other Indian woman speaking confidently for herself on world TV can get many Indians to view daughters as potential achievers more than potential dead weights, I cannot oppose that totally either. There is a fine line between celebration and objectification of womanhood!

Coming to poor urstruly, IMO, career Islamists and beauty contests both get the women angle wrong. The career Islamists want to hide women and commercialism of the west wants to display them, both for the same reasons, because they both think women are sex objects. As for meaningful ways of respecting women, the West at least counterbalances its objectification with real measures unlike the orthodoxy.

scout ....

..... it is not an ``either/or`` thing - as long as she gets a minimum of 1400 on her SAT (which she did), she can do anything she wants ......... and really, it is not a question of what you or i or urstruly think is right and proper - we all have the right to do or not do something, we simply don`t have the right to tell other people what to do and then if they don`t do it go on a burning and killing rampage ........

........ and, oh by the way, mrs hamidm watched the entire victoria`s secret fashion show, even though i got thoroughly bored after the first five minutes and wanted to switch to cnn..........and here is a woman with enough brains for a clan of mad mullahs and their harem of virgins .........

P.S. ........ sadna, as horrible as the hindoos might be, they seem to have their heads screwed on right when it comes to beauty paegents ..... other than that idiot who set himself on fire - goes to show there is an idiot in every tribe ..............

might as well appoint sharon to implement a u.s. mid-east policy:

``_ _ _ But Mr. Abrams`s selection this week as President Bush`s director of Middle Eastern affairs at the White House plunged him into one of the sharpest disputes in the nation`s capital — the one in the administration over how to deal with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Mr. Abrams`s appointment thrilled those who had criticized the administration for being too tough on Israel and too deferential to the Palestinians. But it dismayed those, especially at the State Department, who want Israel to ease its crackdown in the West Bank and Gaza.

An administration official said Mr. Abrams`s ascension had created ``serious consternation`` at the State Department. It was seen there, he said, as likely to impede the efforts of Secretary of State Colin L. Powell to work with European nations to press Israel and the Palestinians to adopt a staged timetable leading to creation of a Palestinian state in three years.

_ _ _ Mr. Abrams comes to his new job trailed by a cloud of controversy, most of it having to do with his pleading guilty in 1987 to the charge that he withheld information from Congress on the Reagan administration`s efforts to assist antigovernment guerrillas in Nicaragua.

He was pardoned by the first President Bush in December 1992. At the time, plenty of people around Washington said Mr. Abrams would never be back as a policy maker``

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hamidm2 #32
Are you feeling quite well? Thanks. Your posts have this let me see, addictive? quality, so I hope chowk realpolitic will continue to dictate references to horrible hindoos :).

who cares about miss turkey being muslim or not, beauty pageants should be banned, women should be encouraged to use their brains instead of boobs and hips and faces to get places. what message are little girls watching pageants getting? that in order to be loved you need to be a size 2, 34B, tall bimbo?

and urstruly is rite, beauty pageantry is just organized eye candy for men.

hamidm2,

just a question....
would you be truly happy if your daughter decided to join beauty pageants instead of studying for her SAT`s and doing something intellectual and meaningful with her life?

how would you feel if she started all kinds of crazy diets, perhaps even became anorexic or bulimic to try and attain the figure of one of these bimbos?

urstruly

......... i think i heard this very same hadith (sahih, i am sure) about snake-men without eyelids during a jumaa khutba in islamabad in july of this year ........ the rabid mullah was ranting and raving at the men-folk for not being able to control their women who were running around without hijab and generally being a public nuisance ..........he went on and on about the dubious manhood of his congregation and used some of your favourite words, like kanjar and pimp, to describe the faithful gathered to earn a few brownie points for entry into jannah........

..........so, i guess this story must be from the standard textbook written by imam ghazali and used by folks like the one-eyed mullah to terrorize the ummah..........doesn`t scare me one bit ........boo!

hamidm2

I used to think that these beauty pageants were demeaning and insulting to women until I attended one. It wasn’t a contest for Miss World, or Miss State or not even Miss City; it was one of our own Desi Miss Something beauty pageant. I was caught off guard when a friend dragged me into the show telling me that it was Moeen Akhtar’s stand up comedy show. Well, once I was in there I thought how bad could it be; lets do in Rome what Romans do; but what I thought would be something disgusting, turned out to be a frightening experience. I was actually so choked with fear that it left me breathless. It wasn’t that the girls weren’t pretty or attractive, they were actually fruit plates that made me salivate….or it could be the tandoori chicken…..I don’t know….but the girls were very attractive…..no doubt there.

It was a humbling experience also, because I could over hear the running commentary from some teenage testicles sitting on the table close to ours. According to them a couple of beauty contestants were desi strippers in the local titty bars and most of them had their parents sitting in the audience. That was a unique experience to see “Mahmood” and “Ayaz” together on one stage. Half way through the show I knew exactly which contestant’s parents were sitting at which table.

It wasn’t long enough when I noticed a very strange thing. I couldn’t believe my eyes to see that some of the men in the audience were not blinking their eyes…….not even a single blink. You might say that it wasn’t a big deal; what man would wanna blink his eyes in a beauty pageant. But let me tell you that I mean something else when I say that they were not blinking their eyes. When I noticed that, I looked hard, and noted this strange and unbelievable thing that the people who were not blinking their eyes actually did not have eyelids.

I rubbed my eyes and looked hard again and found what I observed was true – those men did not have eyelids. Suddenly I found my heart sinking into a bottomless pit. How could that be, I thought? How could those people not have eyelids? They were all middle aged men, bald, potbellied and fermented. They were the parents of those scantily clad girls who were putting out everything they had onto the stage. These men were looking at them with their snake eyes and I swear to God I could hear them hiss. From time to time they applauded each others daughters on the stage staring them with their hungry eyes….eyes without eyelids. Their applause sounded like rattle of rattlesnakes, who also lure their prey with their applause.

Those men, at one sight seemed to be really frightening, like rattlesnakes, who devour their own offspring but when I looked hard they looked pathetic too. They were like the rattlesnakes, which are kept in a glass box and are fed a mouse everyday. When it is feeding time they become ferocious, start hissing, and sense the things around them with their forked tongues. They jump on the scared mouse with a ferocious leap but from outside the glass box they look like a harmless piece of rubber.

I was on the verge of screaming hysterically when I imagined my daughter Vaneeza who is not even born yet, being put in one of those glass boxes full of serpents. She was like a little mouse, cringed in a corner, waiting to be devoured. And you know what left me gasping for air, was not the fact that I was one of the serpents, I was one of the mice.

I had to run from that house of serpents. Later I thought that may be my experience would have been different, had I gone to one of white man’s beauty pageants. I am ashamed to tell you that in some murky corner of my heart I did wish for once to be a serpent; but then I realized that I could never be one, since I have the eyelids.

hamidm2: So the Mrs. thinks the wrong beauty queen thingy won? I think Ms. Turkey is cute, and if I was not happily married etc. would gladly have had her for thanksgiving.
urstruly: On referring to hamidm`s vaxing lyrical about drugs, you write ``baasi qari ko obaal aana``. Heh! heh! . Never heard this one before. urstruly 1, hamidm 0.

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````by the way, what do you think of miss turkey winning one for the ummah````(hamidm)

a small step for miss turkey -- but a GIANT STEP for Muslim Womanhood:-) --

Lo and behold! -- the SUN of Bint-e Islam’s LIBERATION rises --

BEWARE -- the bearded Draculas of Islam -- put HIJAB on YOUR face -- and RUN for the CAVES of Tora Bora. –

the MOST beautiful WOMAN of the WORLD -- miss turkey is coming – miss turkey is coming ...

miss turkey -- is certifiaby the MOST beautiful woman of the world -- if not the most intelligent woman of the world --

but who cares -- it is still a Victory for Islam

urstruly mian,

``who knew that just mentioning the word ``bhang`` would raise a rebel``

..... some things are sacred - a derogatory remark about any fermented liquid would have provoked a similar reaction ......... you see, it is almost like insulting the propet by denigrating dates and camel milk ........

........but you must admit that allah`s warriors have a lot in common with the kissingers and jerry falwells of this world ........ they only cry foul when they are on the receiving end of righteous violence ..........so it is really quite unbecoming for the watwani crowd to throw stones at other people ............on the other hand the bhangis, pathetic and ineffectual as they might seem, are on firm moral ground when they criticize dr strangelove and the equally bizzare mullahs from hell .............

......... by the way, what do you think of miss turkey winning one for the ummah .......... i am conducting an informal survey and so far have concluded that most muslims of your ilk are deeply offended and think it is yet another attempt at fitna creation ............mrs hamidm is the only one who is upset because thinks miss columbia should have won ............

sadna,

...good post .....i find myself agreeing with a lot of your stuff .......... if only we could put kashmir behind us we could gang up on urstruly.......... unfortunately, chowk realpolitik dictates that i ally myself with a lovable looney like jay to combat his soul mates on our side..........

Kissinger is the doyen of Republican foreign affairs pundits and it is a tradition in the Republican party ``never to leave its wonded on the battlefield``. He is being resurrected for his past deeds and being awarded a final swan song.

To understand Kissinger, it is instructive to undertand Prince Klemens von Metternich, the Austrian foreign minister who created and administered the European politics from 1814-1848. Kissinger identifies with Metternich, because Metternich fled the Rhineland ahead of the French armies in 1789 just like Kissenger fled the German Wehrmacht. Mettermich was a Prussian who became influential in the service of another nation like Kissinger, a German, who ended up serving the United States. The Holy Grail of Kissinger is the Treaty of Westphailia of 1648, which created the idea of the balance of power and status quo ante in international diplomacy. Metternich revived these concepts in 1815 and Kissinger, would labor similarily and the results would be the Helsinki Accords of 1974, which divided Europe and ipso facto the world between the United States and the Soviet Union.

Kissinger, as the head of the 9-11 commission, will seek to rationalize the present American policy and sanction the doctrine of pre-emption as a means of self-defence. He will argue for a new version of Pax Americana, which facilitates a new global balance of power with the United States as its final judge, jury and where possible, as its self appointed executioner. Kissinger will offer President Bush a sense of legitimacy in the international affairs and thus, allow Bush to have a legal argument, within the penumbera of international law, to reinforce his actions in the post 9-11 environment. Kissinger will allow Bush to create a new world order, which would please the ghost of Metternich.

The results of this commission will be really interesting and will imply a paradigm shift in international relations.

Ciao

Post Sept 11, and before the Afghan campaign, I found that there are Americans who are deeply cynical about the decisionmaking process in Washington DC and the role of media in disseminating information about those decisions.

People recalled Robert McNamara, and the way his view prevailed wrt the Vietnam war(?), and how inspite of his great credentials to form those views, how the decisions he advocated turned out to be badly wrong for the US. Tthe 50s-60s war experiences have taught people old enough to remember to worry about the process of US going to war, about whether they are being given enough information to decide, what can they do about the decisions being made if they disagree, whether what their leaders say through the media can be believed.

IMO, the worry has not translated into public empowerment either in the matter of information or influence. Ordinary dissenting and cynical Americans(not just the counterculture fringe) donot have ways of influencing the high powered decisionmaking process in Wash. DC nor what is fed through their just as high powered media wrt foreign policy.

The `civil society` protest about treatment of Afghan women which prevented an American oil company from making a deal with the Taliban is one example of ordinary people influencing the govt when the govt. wanted to go another way, but that was at the much slower pace of peacetime. A decision to go to war brings many more powerful interests into the picture than a few oil interests.

Right now, the American public shows an independent mobilization of opinion, only when their own soldiers begin to arrive in body bags, so the US govt. has learnt to avoid at any cost, this provocation whatever other devastation it carries out.

And if you notice, officially the US has been refusing to give estimates of civilian death tolls in the regions of conflicts it has engaged in, as well as other damage in the war zone. The US media, too doesnot choose to talk about losses (except American)caused by US military action. This was true even post Cold War in Kosovo when the US acting on behalf of NATO and in Iraq where US/UK patrol the no fly zones on behalf of the UN and cannot be said to have any obvious legal liability. This is simply to save the US government the inconvenience of US public opinion.

If US citizens and activists do indeed want to change the way US decides to go to war and conducts the war, IMO they need to begin by demanding that their government and the media give them better information about war damages and casualities. Only after the US public stops being insulated from such war damage and the aftermath of conflict, will it begin to demand better answers BEFORE going to war.

oh wow, who knew that just mentioning the word ``bhang`` would raise a rebel out of chowk`s chief obscurantist and recycler par excellence, Mr. hamidm2; formerly known as hamidm. We have a urdu proverb for the occasion, which goes like this `` baasi kaRhi maiN ubaal aana``. jeez.

kashaziz #25 I think the ``famous mujahid leader`` you quote had been sniffing too much of the Afghan poppy flower. Also, it seems from your post that you are awaiting the second coming of mullah omar: the learned (assuming that the ability to count to three without making too many mistakes qualifies one to be considered learned) mullah was last seen hightailing it out of town on the back seat of a motorcycle. I dont think he is coming back anytime soon (he may be brought back in handcuffs perhaps, but that would not count as the second coming of mullah omar).
PS: As for beating the Russians (and before them the Brits in the 19th century), I suggest you study the facts in both cases to satisfy yourself that Afghans are not exactly the unmatched warriors some of them like to think themselves to be. And let us pray for the Afghan`s sake that the Americans and other nations (ANYONE, other than our paki generals who foisted the taliban on the Afghans to begin with) stay around long enough to move them out of the stone age.

Which, Hamid Sahib, is why the left needs to organise across a much broader base and make sure that the media is accountable for recording the variety of discourses taking place. I agree, Ali and Chomksy are preaching to the converted. But if you use the last huge anti war demo in NYC, the NY Times reporter who covered it didnt even leave her/his office to canvass the other MIT hard sciences ph.d or students from the midwest, but quoted them partially and rachetted down the numbers by several thou...I know, I know, this should be nothing new, but we need to be, as you suggested, a bit more active...dillantantism notwithstanding...

#22
Thats what people where saying about USSR, its might and fire-power was greater than USA but what happened to mother Russia? when they entered in Afghanistan, a famous mujhaid leader said that ``They captured Kabul in 2 days but they will need years to get out`` and precisely it costed them 11 years and their confideration to pull out. Now america is doing the same....

smainashah

``....can we prove that counter culture movements do not help define a country`s zeitgeist?``

..... hopefully, over the long run, some of these ideas do ``soften`` the hard attitudes of the establishment which tend to be based on crazy conservative religious and political dogma ......... maybe the green party`s success in germany is a sign of a fundamental change in the german zeitgeist, but i seriously doubt it .......... there is no money in saving whales and cleaning up the the north sea ........ invading iraq is an even better business proposition ............ and the sad part is that most campus protestors like elliott abrams grow up to be rabid neo-conservatives once they grow up and figure out which side of the bread is buttered ..........well-meaning fools and dreamers like chomsky and tariq ali go on to write articles for obscure publications and rant at rave at gatherings of old hippies and deadheads waiting for jerry garcia ..........

............. but that is no reason to stop trying to do the right thing ..........maybe, one of these days..........

Hamidm2,

I dont know....can we prove that counter culture movements do not help define a country`s zeitgeist? On a micro level, feminist/womanist, demilitaristic and third party organizing may not seem to affect the big boys and girls...but they do help students to deconstruct the narratives coming out of Washington and Osama TV...as a participant in several late eighties student groups, it seems to me that period of incubation was as powerful as the theory classes I was taking. Which brings me to my next question; where are the younger generation in these decision making rooms? Why are they not represented?

The other thing is Macro progressivism; we cannot compete with the kind of media complicit resources that our govt. has...any Pacifica station constantly lives each day in fiscal crisis and depends on listener support...either push comes to shove and it gets pulled together in this time of fundamentalist crisis, or things get a lot worse....

Harimau,
I was leaving it you, intrepid reader, to make that connection :)

Arjun,
I dont like Mr. Kissinger because he`s Jewish...give me some credit here. I dislike him because of his questionable roles in South East Asian history...also, didnt get your Pakistani-military point...spell it out for me, pliss?

``When God wants to destroy someone [a nation?] He gives them power and corrupts them`` so, thats the case of America just like the USSR,”(Kashaziz)

don’t hold your breath – it aint happenin soon.

“and look at the history of muslims, after every 300 years of oppression they have risen again.. so wait and see.... the next phoneix is just round the corner...”(kashaziz)

the next phoenix is right here just around the corner on Chowk – his name is -- hamidm

saminashah

......... you are right - folks like osama and kissinger don`t have to do the actual fighting, but there are plenty of fools who are willing to fly planes over cambodia and into tall buildings .........

......... unfortuantely - and i hope urstruly is not listening - the bhang squad doesn`t help much either by protesting on campus, getting stoned, burning bras, holding mock war crime trials and wringing hands ........... but it does make you feel good, and nobody gets hurt .............

RE: #11 should have read

Yaaron kisi Qaatil Say Kabhi PYAAR na maango
Apne hi galay kay liyay Talwaar na maango

(still wonder who wrote that?)

Many paths of wisdom emante from the Bhang Squad here on CHOWK.

e.g.

1) Peace with India

2) Brotherhood of man (and sisterhood of women)

3) Protection of an individual`s democratic rights.

4) The positive aspects of religious practice.

5) Membership to the Bhang Squad without the use of Bhang.


The ``Other Side`` offers ? ? ? ? ?

hamidm2

Someone should really study the percentages of war mongerers and find out how many actually serve....my gut feeling is that once a person has served in a war, they are significantly less interested in perpetuating them...

PBS had a documentary on the organisers of Tianamen Square last night; anyone see it?

Ref saminasha #3

[America`s Republican chickenhawks do not serve in the miliitary;
1. Rush Limbaugh was excused due to an anal cyst.]

Rush Limbaugh IS an anal cyst.

Ref AAmir #5

[That is a pleasant surprise from one of the bhangi squad

urs ana etc.

First Rehan is not Bhangi but ``CHARASI ``....Bhangi(sudra caste ) is so untouchablle aint it Arjun Harami & Jay ??????]

When I read ``bhangi squad``, I thought it meant one of those who use bhang, the intoxicant.

It takes a True Believer, of a Faith that Has No Caste Distinctions, to inform this Brahmin that ``Bhangi`` means ``Dalit``. Such is life in the 21st Century!

Well, look at the history and you will find this ``urooj`` and ``zawal`` of the nations. Now its America`s turn. A famous saying ``When God wants to destroy someone [a nation?] He gives them power and corrupts them`` so, thats the case of America just like the USSr, British Raj, Ottomans, Mughals, Afghans, Abbaisds ... up to the Greeks.

Wait and see the ``zilat`` of muslims as predicted in the ahadeeth [No fiction] ... and look at the history of muslims, after every 300 years of oppression they have risen again.. so wait and see.... the next phoneix is just round the corner...

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Yaaron kisi Qaatil Say Kabhi Talwaar na maango
Apne hi galay kay liyay Talwaar na maango

(wonder who wrote that?)

Ras

........ the bhang squad has always led the protests against war criminals like kissinger and tiger niazi, while the squeaky clean conservatives like urstruly signed up with the marines and al-shams and al-badr to kill cambodians and maim bengalis ............today the same conservatives, on both sides of allah`s great divide, are beating the drums of war, drowning out the protests of the bhang squad .............the mullah and his soulmate, the southern baptist, both praise the lord as they pass the ammunition .........

.......... it is better to praise sain baba and pass the roach ............allah hoo.....