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Human Rights, Justice and Affluence

Riffat Jahan December 8, 2003

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#18 Posted by ballukhan on December 10, 2003 11:06:55 pm
#13 by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:30pm PT
Thanks for the posts!!!
It is very difficult to understand the geneology of one`s own thinking and thought processes through some introspection- with the amount of damage that one nation-state can do with its educational system is in-describable. Hats off to the authors of NCERT texts in India (most of whom were marxists) that their historiography was way ahead of their Pakistani counterparts.
I can only curse the b@st@rds like Zia who started this unfortunate era of deep indocrination of the young ones in the PAkistan`s history!
But will there be any INTROSPECTION by the indoctrinated guys?? I doubt. The jehadi culture is now deeply entrenched in the PAkistani society. They are a curse in the name of Islam.
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#17 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:43:59 pm
According to the Book of Genesis, God placed a mark on the world`s first murderer before
sending him into exile. The mark of Cain proclaimed its bearer as a criminal and social
outcast. For centuries, prisoners and those who broke social codes were forcibly tattooed.

Pakistan`s ruling elite has put the mark of Cain on the nation`s hapless Ahmadiyyas. In fact, it is verily the kiss of death for one`s career even to be suspected of being a closet Ahmadiyya. Not too long ago, the front-runner among candidates for the Chief Justice of Pakistan had to publicly deny rumors that he was a closet Ahmadiyya (floated around by his rivals & detractors) to keep alive his candidacy!

Difficult as it is to believe, in this day and age, there is a country where, under the law of the land, it is unlawful for members of a persecuted community to call themseves ``Muslims``. The five million members of the community in that country are not allowed into mosques and are prosecuted if they say Islamic prayers.

No, I am not talking of the ``Great Satan`` USA or even of much maligned Israel. I am talking of Pakistan where Muslims of the Ahmadiyya sect can be sentenced to death (under Section 295-C of Pakistan Penal Code) if they dare use Islamic expressions like Asslam-o-Alaikum, Bismillah and Insallah.

Sections 295-A and 298-C allow the state to put away an Ahmadiyya in prison for as long as 10 years if he dares to call himself a Muslim. And it is quite according to the laws of the land for the authorities to demolosh the Ahmadiyyas` place of worship if they dare call it a mosque. Five million Ahmadiyyas in Pakistan must live under the shadow of laws undreamt of even by blacks in South Africa during their darkest hours.

In Pakistan the law of the land very specifically bars non-Muslims from the highest positions in the land. In fact, it is not enough to be a Muslim, you must be so certified by the country`s ruling elite to qualify for the positions.

Nobel Laureate Abdus Salam, for example, was not entitled to be a Presidential candidate. As an Ahmadiyya, he was a mere Kafir according to Pakistani law.

When USA recommended an alumnus of the World Bank for succeeding Nawaz Sarif after his first stint as the Prime Minister, the ablest among the alumni had to be bypassed for he, too, was an Ahmadiyya. And earlier, when Benazir Bhutto, as Pakistan`s Prime Minister, had attempted to post a Ahmadiyya as Pakistan`s top diplomat at the United Nations, she was roundedly accused of being an infidel by the press and the political establishment. The diplomat was soon found dead in a Tokyo hotel under mysterious circumstances. Benazir, herself, was dismissed by President Ishaq Khan soon after.

In Pakistan, even the mere rumor that one is an Ahmadiyya can ruin a person. Some years back, when the office of the Chief Justice for the Supreme Court of Pakistan fell vacant, the nominating process said a lot about the guiding philosophy of ``Islamic`` Pakistan:

When the office fell vacant, the senior most judge took over as the acting Chief Justice and everyone assumed that he would soon be confirmed to the post. But the judge had enemies who promptly spread the rumor that he was a closet Ahmadiyya. The acting Chief Justice denied vehemently that he had ever been an Ahmadiyya or ever will be one. But the damage was done. A junior judge was appointed the Chief Justice and the alleged Ahmadiyya was forced to resign from the Bench!!

Not even death will bring reprieve. Benazir Bhutto`s interior minister, General Naseerullah Babar, for example, came under nasty attack for merely attending the Namaz-e-Janaza of his Ahmadiyya friend, Mumtaz Ahmed Malik.

The late Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmed (the spiritual head of the Ahmadiyyas) visited India anytime he wanted to. But, understandably, he never dared to visit Pakistan.
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#16 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:43:59 pm
An Ahmadiyya friend has brought to my attention the Application Form for new passport (Form A) that Pakistanis must fill out not only in Pakistan but even at the Pakistani embassy and the consulates in USA.

Interested readers can check the complete application form at the following website:

http://www.pakistan-embassy.com/formA.htm

Diplomatic immunity perhaps prevents the American government from barring the Pakistani embassy and the consulates from using such a blatantly offensive
application form.

Item 5 in the Application Form is religion.

The choices offered to the applicant are listed as ``Islam, Christian, Hindu, Parsi etc.``

In case the applicant writes ``Islam`` as his choice, he is required to sign or to give a thumb impression to the following Declaration:

I, ..... s/d/w/of ..... aged ..... adult Muslim, resident of ..... hereby solemnly declare that:

I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani to be an impostor nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to the Lahori or Quadiani group, to be NON-MUSLIM.

It shows how low Pakistan`s government is willing to stoop to spite the Ahmadiyas.

Rabwah in Pakistani Punjab is an important center of the persecuted sect. 96% the residents of Rabwah are Ahmadiyyas. But, not a single Ahmadiyya can contest the local polls because under Pakistan`s law the contestant must certify that he is not an Ahmadiya.

And of course the Ahmadiyyas are barred by law from ``pretending`` to be Muslims. They can call themselves Muslims or describe their place of worship as a mosque only at the risk of being sent to prison for extended periods. Reciting the Kalima can lead to being hauled to a court of law on charges of blasphemy which is a capital offense in Pakistan.
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#15 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:30:56 pm
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2003-daily/07-12-2003/oped/o4.htm

The News, Karachi, Pakistan
Sunday December 07, 2003-- Shawwal 12, 1424 A.H.

By Dr Farrukh Saleem
farrukh15@hotmail.com

..... For the past quarter-century our civil society is being indoctrinated to equate Pakistan with Islam, India with Hindus both in tandem with ``Hindus being eternal enemies of Islam``.

Our elementary and secondary school curriculum continues to be full of ‘hate literature` (my 9-year-old son has a problem comprehending that an Indian can also be a Muslim). Pakistani students are still being taught that ``Hindus worship in temples which are narrow and dark places, where they worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In mosques, on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together`` and that ``the religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things. Hindus, who have been opportunist, cooperated with the English.`` The post-1979 curriculum is also inundated with the concepts of ‘Jihad` and ‘Shahadat` (notions that are hard to find in the pre-1979 curricula). .....

..... In order to sustain Indo-Pak peace agenda we would have to undertake an extended period devoted to wholesale de-indoctrination of both our uniformed decision makers and our civil society. .....
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#14 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:30:38 pm
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
15 June 2003 Sunday 14 Rabi-us-Saani 1424

`Pakistan first`
By Ardeshir Cowasjee

..... The government of Pakistan will have not only to find money to build an education system, but it will also have to seriously revamp the entire education curricula now operative in the country. The national curriculum objectives as set forth by the federal ministry of education in 1995 remain unchanged, eight years on. By completion of
Class V, according to this curriculum in force, children are required, inter alia, to understand Hindu-Muslim differences, identify the forces working against Pakistan and India`s evil designs, and make speeches on jihad and shahadat.

They are also expected to promote an awareness of the Kashmir issue, to observe their fellow pupils and note their reaction to the wars with India, judge their spirit while they make speeches on jihad, and note their keenness and willingness to recite tarana at school functions. As commented Sami Mustafa in this newspaper on May 18 in his article on the subject:

``So much for teaching tolerance, objectivity and scholarship to the future generations of this country ... Sadly, it appears that the national curriculum is anything but about education. It is primarily a hopeless attempt to control young minds and compensate for the incompetence and inability of our policymakers to come to terms with the demands of a new world, which is the individual development of each child, not the mass development of children so that they fit into a political system that is inefficient, retrogressive and unenlightened.``

This being so, may one ask the general: what then is the difference between the ministry of education and the MMA government in Peshawar? .....

..... The present generation is doomed, as is amply illustrated by the sick happenings at the University of Punjab, overseen by an army general and an army colonel, where a professor of the Department of English is proving himself to be as intolerant, as Talibanized, and as dangerous as is the government of the NWFP. .....
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#13 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:30:38 pm
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
11 June, 2000

Misguided zeal
By Ardeshir Cowasjee

..... by an act of Parliament passed in 1976, there is one and only one allowed road-map, prepared by the curriculim wing of the federal ministry of education, Government of Pakistan. .....

..... Consider the impact of the national curriculum objectives on the mind of a 12-year old child in his last year at primary school. He is not taught to hope for a joyous future, a good life in a peace loving country in which goodwill towards man and the well being of its citizens prevails. The child is told that life is all about battling invisible enemies and that fear is to be feared.

The kindergarten to class v curriculum adopted by the ministry of education in 1995 is, to say the least, a bizarre piece of work. At the completion of Class V the child has to be able to -
1) explain the importance of the work of past heroes of Pakistan.
2) identify the great personalities who contributed to the making of Pakistan.
3) demonstrate an appreciation for the work of Muslim heroes.
4) demonstrate respect and reverence for the founder of Pakistan.
5) demonstrate respect for the leaders of Pakistan.

Amongst the objectives to be achieved is the ability to -
1) understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan;
2) know all about India`s evil designs against Pakistan;
3) acknowledge and identify forces that may be working against Pakistan;
4) demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah;
5) demonstrate the desire to preserve the ideology, integrity and security of Pakistan;
6) make speeches on jihad and shahadat;
7) guard against rumor mongers who spread false news and to stage dramas signifying the evils of rumors;
8) understand the Kashmir problem;
9) collect pictures of policemen, soldiers and National Guards.

How can a child be expected to preserve ideology of Pakistan? And how on earth is a 12-year old expected to understand and know all about the `Kashmir problem`? As for the speechifying, one is rendered speechless.

He must also know -
1) the place of Pakistan in world affairs;
2) the importance of the location of Pakistan in the world and specifically to other Islamic countries;
3) the role of the Defence Forces of Pakistan;
4) the functions of the Supreme Court of Pakistan;
5) the problems of Pakistan.

He is expected to -
1) discuss electric load-shedding;
2) visit garbage dumps and police stations [presumably to define the basic differences
between the two].


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#12 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:30:38 pm
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
11 June, 2000

Misguided zeal
By Ardeshir Cowasjee

..... to quote from a textbook entitled `Pakistan Studies` published by the government to be taught in Classes IX and X : ``After the death of Aurangzeb Alamgir in 1707 AD his successors could not control the vast Moghul Empire and as a result South Asia gradually fell prey to the forces of anarchy.`` One reason given is ``the spirit of holy struggle and war (Jihad) which was the fountainhead of power of Muslim kingdoms faded gradually. Thus the military power became weak. Ease and laziness blunted the military prowess.``

For some unknown reason, when the story of Pakistan catches up with the 20th century and the 1980s, there is a lacuna as to the departure of Zia-ul-Haq from the national scene : ``Unfortunately the Junejo government was dismissed on May 29 1988 after it remained in power for three years and two months. The National Assembly and the provincial assemblies were dissolved by the president. In November 1988, general elections were held on a party basis.``

Discussing factors that lead to the high birth rate in Pakistan, the book teaches that the primary factor is the ``hot climate of the country.`` And on the secession of East Pakistan, all that the book has to say is : ``Bangladesh was separated from Pakistan and became an independent country in 1971.``

Compulsory reading for BA, B.Com, MBBS, and B.Sc Engineering is another book entitled `Pakistan Studies` which attempts to explain the ideology of Pakistan : ``What does Pakistan mean? It means there is no God but Allah.`` Dr Ishtiaq Hussain Qureshi defines it further : ``Thus the Pakistan ideology is the guiding principle of the Muslim majority regions of the South Asian subcontinent for obtaining an ideal Muslim state, Pakistan which has been chosen as a keynote for passing life, both individually and collectively, according to the Islamic conception of life and for resurgence of Muslim society.``

In the year 2000, we finally have a government which acknowledges that education is a most vital sphere of national development : ``A comprehensive review of the education sector is in progress with the aim of identifying specific strategies and actions to ensure fundamental and purposeful improvements in every sector of this most vital sphere.`` .....
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#11 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:30:38 pm
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-7-2003_pg3_2

Daily Times, Lahore, Pakistan
Saturday, July 19, 2003

Roots of absolutism
Ravian

[A.H. Nayyar and Ahmed Salim] with the help of 30 leading experts on
the country`s education system ..... ploughed through course materials
for Social/Pakistan Studies and Urdu and English used in class I to
Class XII. This is what they find:

* inaccuracies of fact and omissions that distort our history
* insensitivity to the religious diversity of the nation
* incitement to militancy and violence, encouraging jihad and shahadat (martyrdom)
* encouraging prejudice, bigotry and discrimination against women and minorities
* discouraging critical self-awareness

The report highlights the all-pervasive and anti-India, specifically anti-Hindu bias in the course material. There is virtually no acknowledgement of the contributions to the country made by non-Muslims such as A R Cornelius, Dorab Patel, Sobho Gianchandani, Cecil Choudhry and Bapsi Sidwa. A largely Sunni version of Islam dominates the course material, not just of Islamiat, but also Pakistan Studies, Urdu and English.

Heavy religious content permeates Urdu textbooks in particular: four out of 25 lessons in Class I are on Islam, eight out of 33 in Class II, 10 out of 45 in Class IV, seven out of 34 in Class V, 14 out of 46 lessons in Class VI, 16 out 53 lessons in Class VII, 15 out of 46 lessons in Class VIII and 10 out of 68 lessons in Classes IX to X.

Here are some nuggets contained in textbooks compulsory for all students, Muslim and non-Muslim:

``Our country is Pakistan. We live in our country. Pakistan is an Islamic country. Here Muslims live. Muslims believe in the unity of Allah. They do good deeds`` (Class II Urdu textbook).

``Who am I? I am a Muslim. I am a Pakistani. I love my country and I love my people ... you know that you are a Muslim and your religion isIslam`` (Class Six Urdu textbook).

Another textbook exhorts: ``Good people are those who read the Qur`an and teach the Qur`an to others``.

And what is a Christian or a Hindu or a Parsee child to feel on reading this compulsory material? And how does the Muslim child thus indoctrinated view his non-Muslim neighbour in the class or indeed in the big, wide world?

The themes of jihad and shahadat recur in textbooks obeying instructions of the National Curriculum for Social Studies. Here are some of the instructions:

``Learning outcomes:
1) Recognize the importance of jihad in every sphere of life.
2) Awareness of the blessings of jihad.
3) Must create a yearning for jihad in the heart of the child.
4) Promote love and aspiration for jihad, Tableegh (proselytisation), jihad, shahadat, sacrifice, ghazi (the victor in holy wars), shaheed (martyr).``

Viewing the world through the prism of religion results in a unique interpretation of history. The report cites a textbook of Pakistan Studies:

``....as a matter of fact, Pakistan came to be established for the first time when the Arabs under Mohammed bin Qasim occupied Sindh and Multan in the early years of the eighth century, and established Muslim rule in this part of the South Asian Sub-continent. Pakistan under the Arabs comprised the Lower Indus Valley.`` The text goes on, ``...the 11th century Ghaznavid Empire comprised what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan. During the 12th century the Ghaznavids lost Afghanistan, and their rule came to be confined to Pakistan``.

There is no room in this absolutist worldview for the vast majority of Pakistani children whose ancestors converted from Hinduism, probably because of its oppressive caste system, and have an identity rooted in the Indus Basin quite distinct from the Afghans, the Iranians and the Arabs with whom the child is exhorted to identify. .....
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#10 Posted by nakhok on December 10, 2003 6:30:38 pm
The Harvard Human Rights Journal (Volume 16, Spring 2003)

``Persecution of the Ahmadiyya Community in Pakistan: An Analysis Under International Law and International Relations`` by Amjad Mahmood Khan.

The article can be accessed at:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/current/khan.shtml#Heading55
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#9 Posted by RationalFaith on December 10, 2003 2:56:51 pm
ISLAMIC DISHONETY AT ITS WORST


When Islam is Yours’; When Islam is Mine

By Abul Kasem

Syed Kamran Mirza’s (SKM) essay, ‘My house is mine; your House is mine too’ reflects, quite accurately, the mind-set of the neo-Islamists, especially those living in Kufur lands. Many of these Islamists will not hesitate to articulate that these Kafirs are actually good Muslims, whereas, most Muslims are no more ‘true’ Muslims. They will even let you believe that these infidels have actually hijacked Islam for themselves and took all the ‘goodies’ from it, leaving the ‘rotten’ parts for the ‘born’ Muslims. It is not uncommon to find an Islamist who will tell a Western Kafir something like this: Actually, you are a true Muslim. Most of your secular laws and your social customs are in complete conformity with the Islamic tenets; so, you are really a Muslim; we (ie the born Muslims) have discarded the true spirit of Islam, therefore, we can no longer call ourselves as true Muslims.

What a game of paradox these Islamists play, come to think of it! Actually, this is a clever ploy by this new breed of Islamists to fool the gullible Westerners in particular and the non-Muslims in general to sell Islam. After reading SKM’s unique essay, I recollected many incidences, when I discovered how clever a game of duplicity these, suave, smooth-talking sellers of religion (read Islam) engage in with impunity. It is time to expose their tricks.

Here are my recollections (from personal experiences) of some of those situations when the Islamists are superbly adept at revealing their hypocrisy. This is not a comprehensive list. Feel free to extend this list from your experience too.

When a person bearing the resemblance of an Arabic name, receives a Noble Prize, he is a Muslim, no matter that he is actually a heretic.

When a great scientific theory is enunciated, it belongs to Islam: in fact, the infidels took the help of the Qur’an to discover the scientific principle.

Internet is Islamic even though it is invented by the infidels; 100% of it.

When a person (Neil Armstrong) lands on the Moon, he is a Muslim, even though he vehemently denies being a Muslim, ever.

If an infidel lady journalist goes to Afghanistan (or to any other Islamic Paradise) and conducts interviews of Mullahs wearing Hijab and Islamic cloak, she is a good Muslimah even though she may be wearing Bikini in beaches while in an infidel country.

When an infidel country doles out social security benefits, it is Islamic.

When the Kafirs enact child protection laws, it is Islamic.

When the decadent West grants full and equal constitutional rights to women, it is Islamic, even though no Islamic Paradise had ever granted such rights to women.

However, when the above women are granted their inalienable right to wear dresses that befit them, then it is not Islamic.

When Time Magazine publishes Karen Armstrong`s apologetic essays to soft-sell Islam, she is Islamic minded and the Time magazine becomes a champion of Islam.

When the same Time magazine depicts a picture with the slightest resemblance of the Prophet of mercy and publishes a critical essay on Islam, it is un-Islamic and the Time magazine is banned/burnt in Islamic Paradises.

When the Newsweek publishes articles praising the `moderate` Islam, it is Islamic press freedom.

When the Newsweek publishes articles questioning the veracity of certain Qur`anic verses, it is un-Islamic and the magazine is banned in Islamic paradises.

When the Kafirs allow Muslim students in a school/college/university to use its premise for religious activities, it is Islamic.

However, when the students of other religions want similar rights in campus, it is absolutely un-Islamic; for, the educational institutions should not promote any religion (except, of course, Islam).

When the Kafirs, in a Kafir society talk of respect and tolerance for all religions, it is Islamic.

Nevertheless, when these Kafirs demand equal constitutional rights (on religion) in Islamic paradises, it is un-Islamic.

Whenever the infidel doctors find a cure for a serious illness, it is Islamic.

Whenever the infidel police books drinkers for excessive drinking while on the wheel, it is Islamic.

Nonetheless, when these infidels grant the right of a one to enter a pub and drink whatever one desires, including alcoholic drinks, it is un-Islamic.

If an infidel man grows beard, it is Islamic, if he grows unbridled whiskers, it is un-Islamic.

If an infidel man is circumcised, it is Islamic.

When PBS broadcasts the ‘Muhammad, the legacy of a Prophet’, PBS is Islamic.

When an infidel buys stale meat from a ‘Halal’ shop, he is actually a Muslim.

However, when a ‘not so good’ Muslim buys fresh meat from Woolworths, he is a Murtad.

When an infidel patronises a Muslim (Halal) restaurant, he is a Muslim.

When a ‘not so good’ Muslim eats in an infidel restaurant, he is a Murtad.

When an infidel government pursues the policy of secularism and separation of religion from politics, it is Islamic.

When these infidel governments declare war on terrorism, it is war on Islam.

When the infidels permit the building of unlimited mosques in their land, it is Islamic.

When the infidels fail in their attempts to erect their places of worship in Islamic paradises, it too, is Islamic.

When the Marxists and the Communists condemn the ‘Great Satan’ for ‘occupying’ Iraq, they are actually Muslims in the guise of ‘atheists.’

When the Kufur land of England allows the Islamic Cola, MeccaCola to be sold in their country, it is Islamic.

When the infidels (PC) preach ‘Islam is peaceful’, they are actually Muslims.

Yet, when they scrutinise Islam closely, they are Kafirs.

When President George Bush invites the Islamists in the White house compound on the Eid occasion, he is a true Muslim.

But, when President George Bush calls for support from the Islamists for his war on terrorism, he is actually a Christian crusader.

When infidels quote verse 2:255 (No compulsion in religion) from the Qur’an, they are Muslims.

When the secularists quote the Qur’anic verse 9:5 (Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them), it is un-Islamic.

When the Kufur immigration approves visa of the spouse of a Muslim/Muslimah to join his/her partner in an infidel country, it is Islamic.

However, marrying a non-Muslim man from a Kufur land by a Muslimah may be punishable by death sentence, forget about obtaining a visa to join the Muslimah; this too, is Islamic.

……………………

Abul Kasem writes from Sydney, Australia. His e-mail address is abul88@hotmail.com
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#8 Posted by pmishra2 on December 10, 2003 2:17:01 pm
Another try at ``spurious universalism``, pretending that post-19th century ideas of governance, human rights and justice were somehow available in Arabia in 600AD. Jay has correctly characterized this as ``tahmedism``.

Talk about being obsessed with a complete dead end....

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#7 Posted by macgupta on December 10, 2003 2:08:57 pm
``For instance, Scandinavian countries with their extensive social welfare system, theoretically assuring cradle-to-grave affluence to their nationals are the few places on the planet that remind an ideal Islamic society, where no one goes to bed unfed.``

The choice seems to be - Islam without Muslims, or Muslims without Islam. It is the combination that is dangerous.
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#6 Posted by RationalFaith on December 10, 2003 1:15:18 pm
Riffat Jahan

Excellent. Muslims must look only to Holy Quran. All else is second rate, a copy, untrue. Those who try to separate Muslims from the prophets language of Arabic (#2, #5) are foreign agents to the Nation of Islam. Only Arabic can express the beautiful concepts of Islam. All of us know that Allah is not the same as God. Allah has not attributes, God has a son. You know the details.
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#5 Posted by hamidm2 on December 10, 2003 10:52:24 am
riffat,

........... i agree with sameer - the minute you start using arabic terms to describe simple things like respect for individual rights and rule of the law you are negating what you are trying to sell ............. why? ..... because of what sameer calls ``all the other worms in this can`` ............you cannot seperate the nonsense of haqooq-ul-allah from haqoog-ul-ibad ....... once you start meeting allah`s demands you are forced to infringe on the rights of the poor individual - hadood, blasphemy laws, riba, shariah courts and facial hair are a case in point ................

............ so if the muslims really want to live the good life of the scandinavians, they will have to change their definition of a ``good life`` which involves confining their silly religious practices to the mosque and the privacy of their homes ...............
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#4 Posted by jay on December 10, 2003 7:18:42 am
Riffat,

You are yet another tahmedian, trying white wash islam, searching and finding obscure verses and words to say that islam is an egalitarian religion. This is simply a futile exercise and you are not convincing anybody. Islam is there in so many countries, pakistan is the latest one. It had a secular history and see what has happened to it in the last 50 years.
The tahmedian interpretation is simply a whitewashing attempt, to present yourself as professing a moderate religion. The billions who suffer under the tort rules for murder, the millions who suffer under the blasphemy rules, the thousand who are killed, sorry , martyred in jihad, the hundreds honour killed, have no clue about what you are talking about.

Never in the history has there been an islamic state, ruled by the book, that believed in any of the ideas you are talking about, let alone practicing it. Stink is ontological in skunk, so it is in some books.
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#3 Posted by ballukhan on December 10, 2003 7:18:41 am
If you are trying to re-interpret all the good things of western polity such as democracy, rule of law, secularism, separation of executive from judiciary etc. etc. as confroming to the so called fundamental principles of Islamic living- then forget it-
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listing 16-32   1 2 3

Interact Index

    #34 MichaelM
    #33 Pakfin
    #32 vertex
    #31 anew
    #30 nakhok
    #29 riffatj
    #28 RationalFaith
    #27 nakhok
    #26 anew
    #25 anew
    #24 nakhok
    #23 nakhok
    #22 anew
    #21 jay
    #20 ballukhan
    #19 ballukhan
    #18 ballukhan
    #17 nakhok
    #16 nakhok
    #15 nakhok
    #14 nakhok
    #13 nakhok
    #12 nakhok
    #11 nakhok
    #10 nakhok
    #9 RationalFaith
    #8 pmishra2
    #7 macgupta
    #6 RationalFaith
    #5 hamidm2
    #4 jay
    #3 ballukhan
    #2 SameerJB
    #1 Jahil

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