The Unmaking Of Gujrat

re:#215 by sadna
I do not know where you got the idea that i favor the VHP/RSS ideology or that i support the violence unleashed by these fundamentalist elements. However, despite all the outcry by the English press, the common man in gujarat has supported Modi`s agenda. The question is : is this something unique about Gujarat or is this something we are going to see all over the country.
I was trying to make a point that muslims in India need to introspect. Why are they unable to integrate with the majority community?
In a research done by an American Indian researcher (Prof Varshney) for US Institute of Peace on riots in India, some findings were significant. He found that most riots happened in certain big cites, not necessarily the ones with a big muslim population. Where riots did not happen, he found that muslims and hindus seem to forge a close interaction thr` community work. Best insurance against riots was to forge a common bond by encouraging participation in community work, thereby establishing trust.
I quote here his findings (url: http://www.usip.org/oc/newsroom/es20021114.html
``In examining the relationships and social structures within multiethnic societies, Varshney argued that research has shown that the viability of intra- and interethnic social networks has played an important role in how susceptible the society has been to lethal communal riots. More specifically, Varshney pointed out that his research indicates that societies without strong interethnic social structures were more prone to ethnic violence.

Elaborating upon the importance of interethnic social structures in defusing ethnic tensions, Varshney noted that both formal organized associations (such as professional associations or unions) and informal or neighborhood-level associations (such as book or sports clubs) tend to be helpful. However, he stressed that his research has found that more formal organized social structures appear to be able to better withstand ethnic tensions. He also found that these types of organization not only provided for stronger personal and professional bonds between individuals in different ethnic groups, but also provided for important informal channels of interethnic communication.``

Muslims in India are not visible in areas other than arts (cinema, music etc). We do not find them interacting closely with other communites. While one simplistic answer would be: they are discriminated, the reality is they have shut themselves off. They do not send their children to public schools or govt run schools for fear of being hinduised. Thus, an opportunity for a muslim boy to interact and understand the majority community is lost right in the beginning. Madrassa education gives muslim children free education but not enough skills to compete with others. Result: muslims do not make it as doctors, engineers etc in big numbers. This results in alienating them and making them prey to the voices of hatred spewn forth by Syed Bukhari and his ilk.
If muslims want India to be secular, they have to help secular elements by giving up their self-imposed seclusion and joining the mainstream.
Sridhar

#220 by pennathur on December 19, 2002 10:40am PT
well said pennathur...we all know the facts of our history..how hindus were treated when pakistan was formed. Atrocious!!!!

If Pakistanis think they are less of religious fanatics than Indians or they think they are as much as or more secular than Indians....or if they are trying to proove that India pretends to be a secular country whilte it is not then I would love to see a Hindu Prime Minister in Paksitan.

#183 by rsaxena on December 17, 2002 8:34am PT
...why are so many pakistanis gloating over gujarat...it`s like a bunch of makkhis hovering over a dead bird....

& all this while a hyena licks her chops...

For those who wonder how ``educated`` Indians can support the VHP - have you wondered how ``educated`` people like Jinnah turned into blood-thirsty hounds on Direct Action Day when the streets of Bengal ran red with the blood of Hindus. Or the Partition when over a period of months the Hindu proportion of Pakistan declined from about 20% to 3% and to the now less than 1%. An oft repeated argument by India`s loony lefty and chamcha socialists (like Mani Shankar Iyer) is how a `fundamentalist` party like the BJP in India has a significant share of votes while fundamentalist parties in Pakistan have always polled insignificant numbers. The absurdity and ignorance behind this argument is appalling. Pakistan is an Islamic State founded for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent (never mind that ancestors of 140 million of them have turned their backs on it resolutely 55 years ago and have never regretted the decision). Islamic theocracy underlies the institutuinal framework of Pakistan. A non-Muslim can`t hold positions of power by law (or any other way either). The armed forces are wedded to the concept of jihad and gallantry awards are given away to soldiers ``who have despatched the kafir/infidel to jahannum`` and/or earned jannat for themselves. All this is just for starters. So in this situation the theocratic attitude is just one of degree. All parties in Pakistan are inherently theocratic and are (for the sake of argument) different shades of the BJP. So whicever party rules in Pakistan - the nation-state continues to be a theocratic one where non-Muslims are 2nd class citizens as per the traditional Islamic statecraft. In countries like Saudi Arabia the policy is followed to its extreme - in Pakistan it is followed in degrees. In Bangladesh it is fast developing into a mini-Saudi after the December 2001 pogrom against Hindus.

Ref ferozk #217

[Re: Harimau
Congrats! You have proved my point! I knew you would not disappoint me!]

I am glad to be of service and delighted that I met your expectations.

If you noticed, I didn`t say anything about ``the obnoxious behavior of some muslims in India``. That would be, in my opinion, a codeword.

On the other hand, I still haven`t gotten a name for The Muslim Girl or The Muslim Tea Vendor from our fearless journalist FarceAnna.

When I pointed out back in March that Narendra Modi was encouraging the anti-Muslim violence to stay in office, I was roundly condemned for SUPPORTING him. Now the same folks are blaming the poor benighted Hindoos for voting him back into power with an overwhelming majority. Some political analysis!

If you have the opportunity, visit the Jefferson Monument in Washington, DC. And read and remember his statement about maintaining eternal enmity over all forms of tyranny over Man`s MIND.

And by the way, Jinnah is GRRRRRREEEEEAT!

rsridhar #213

How about the obnoxious behaviour of the VHP and Bajrang Dal? First they demolish a mosque, then they indulge in riots then they threaten to `repeat` the Gujarat `formula` and make India a `Hindu rashtra`. Do you mean I can go and kill Togadia and other Hindus for being anti-India as long as I take an angry mob along?

Aren`t you repeating the very same arguments used to excuse the train burning?


ROmair
Let me quote for you Qazi Hussain of Jamaat-I-Islami, a person whose candidature for Prime Minister I seem to remember you and many Pakistanis frequently express support for:

``..an excerpt from an interview with Nawabzada Nabiullah Khan of the Jamaat-I-Islami of Pakistan, published in the February 1999 issue of the Jamhooria Islamia, a Baluchi magazine. Khan is quoting the views of Qazi Hussain Ahmed, head of the JI, which has captured a large number of seats in the Pakistani `elections` held recently. The entire interview, as a window into the mindset of an Islamist, is most instructive. And shows a remarkable world view.

What kind of government that JI envisages for Pakistan?

It will be the Sharia government. Sharia will be made our constitution so that the eminent Muslim scholars who had completed the schooling in madrassas will be appointed as the judges in every court. Qazi wanted to make the presidium on the same model as the Khalifa. Presently our ideas is that the entire top leadership of JI as well as all three military generals will be part of the presidium for which the Qazi will be the Kalifa.

We are keenly watching the progress of Taliban and learning from it. We are impressed with the Taliban on the women issue, minorities issue and law and order issue. Mullah Omar is a great friend of Qazi. Omar had visited his house many times. In the tentative talks, we had decided to form union of Pakistan and Afghanistan once the right conditions are set in Pakistan (ie the JI government in Pakistan). Our motto is Constant Jihad.

The idea is to keep Pakistan in a constant state of Jihad all the time. Qazi`s vision is that Pakistan will be centre of the new Islamic empire that stretches from Burma to Afghanistan and from Sri Lanka to Tajikistan including Kashmir. Towards that end, Jamaat will use all tactics from terrorism in the kafir- controlled areas to negotiations in the Muslim-controlled areas. Already the Jamaat leaders of Bangladesh and Jamaat leaders of India had accepted the primacy of Pakistani leadership in this regard...``

(end quote)


I wonder why Pakistanis donot come out in the streets against Qazi Hussain and JI/JUI/JUP? Instead they voted these folks into power in two provinces. Togadia can be accused to trying to overthrow the Indian Constitution and subvert the Indian state, what can Qazi Hussain be accused of when he supports jihad and an Islamic state?

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Re: Harimau

Congrats! You have proved my point! I knew you would not disappoint me!

Ciao

American Express 203:

You have a point. Godhra may have been enginnered, we just don`t know by who. It could well be Muslim organizations whose agenda is much bigger than Gujarat, as in the case of the temple attack that followed.

[ #207 by pennathur on December 18, 2002 10:32pm PT
Now that the Gujarat elections are over supervised by yet another tough as nails Election Commissioner (not some two-bit Brigadier or Lance Naik in khaki); the results must be expected. ]

Tough as nail EC, but according to Shenoy in following link he has unwitting helped in election result so completely in favour of Modi. And I agree with Shenoy. Well meaning but overzealous EC can influence elections wrong way.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/16flip.htm

-ew

re:#190 by sri
Your points about obnoxious behavior of some muslims in India is true. Such elements exist in every community.
Above all, it is the ``ghetto mentality`` displayed by ordinary muslims in India (and here i do not include many educated and successful muslims) that causes so much rift between the 2 communities. When muslims cheer Paki cricketers or bemoan the loss of prestige they once had (when muslims ruled hindus!), they are trying to recreate a past which they think was glorious and which they sorely miss. In this, muslims are different from hindus. Even a poor muslim somehow feels connected to the Mughal rulers in a spiritual and emotional sense. Such kinship is lacking among hindus.
When such ``ghetto mentality`` becomes a favourite past-time, it becomes a problem. That is where most Indian muslims (at least the ones in the north) stand. They are unwilling to integrate with the majority community for fear of losing their culture. Such fears are neither fact-founded nor reason-grounded. Muslims should emulate Parsees. Here is a community that has not only successfully integrated with the rest of India but also kept its distinct culture and religion alive. It has produced successful businessmen, scientists, artists the like of which few communities can boast of. Yet, this community is loved by all hindus. What is their secret? In an answer to this question lies, perhaps, the solution to the problems of muslim community in India.

Sridhar

Now that the Gujarat elections are over supervised by yet another tough as nails Election Commissioner (not some two-bit Brigadier or Lance Naik in khaki); the results must be expected. To talk of rigging is probably displaying lunacy and/or idiocy! The Congress and its chamchas (which includes all parties except the BJP and the leftists) have always followed a divide and rule policy wrt the Hindus. Since caste divisions have remained a serious problem within the Hindu fold. The BJP/RSS/VHP as well as the Shiv Sena have worked hard to dissolve caste divisions for years while the `secular` press from its airconditioned armchairs has hurled epithet after foul epithet and called them all sorts of names. The Sena in any case has always been a anti-upper caste party as Bal`s father Prabodhankar Thackeray was anti-brahmin much in the same way as the early Justice Party stalwarts of Tamil Nadu; and a mentor of the Raja of Kolhapur who introduced reservations in his State in the 20s. The BJP/RSS/VHP have long ago abandoned the upper caste anchors and are today the most egalitarian outfits in India. This it has done with a vengeance in order to draw the widest possible crowd into its folds. In UP the one time BJP stalwart Kalraj Mishra a brahmin gave way to Kalyan Singh a Lodh (same as Uma Bharati) who in turn when he rebelled was thrown out into the wilderness and replaced by the fiery Vinay Katiyar. The way the party has allied with Mayawati of the BSP and forged a successful alliance with the Dalits has completely ruffed Mulayam Singh from without and within. In Gujarat the party has made deep inroads among the weaker sections of society and several Dalits and `tribals` today occupy positions of power in the party. The violence in Dangs in 1998 actually began with an aggressive campaign by Christian groups to oust the VHP from the district. A group of miscreants ran amok and defiled a Hanuman shrine. A newly converted Christian whose family owned that land with this shrine then ``gave away`` the temple to his Church who then systematically pulled down the temple. This naturally sparked violence and the usual retribution. The Gujarat Samachar carried reports of these incidents for over six months and attempts of the district administration to bring peace. The English press got into the act very late and promptly manufactured the ``crisis and riot``. The incidents are well documented. Instead of accepting the gradual failure of its divide and rule policy the Congress and to a large extent the `secular press` keeps inventing these demons of `majoritarianism` and ``Hindutvaisation`` and other such claptrap. While an integration of Hindu society isn`t going to happen overnight - it will slowly but surely. There are big hurdles to be crossed and the progress is there for everyone to see. Musharaff by rubbishing the Gujarati in the UN touched a raw nerve. The Guju may be a crass business-minded sharp who isn`t bothered about things like pride etc. and only wants to make a fast buck. That could well be wrong. This election has shown up the futility if trying to play with Hindu sentiments.

Following is an interesting article, quoted in the Pakistan Daily Times, from the Indian Hindu newspaper:

From the statements of the VHP (sister wing of BJP - under the parentage of RSS) leader, it seems the RSS/VHP/BJP want the following:

1. ``The Muslims here will enjoy the same place or status as Hindus enjoy in Pakistan, maybe even slightly better status``

While the status of Hindus in Pakistan isn`t great, it is better than the status of Muslims in Gujrat. So I don`t know if the VHP leader wants to improve the status of Indian Muslims or destroy it.

2. ``as for Pakistan, the VHP was in favour of “dismembering” it,``

This is now impossible for India to do, in a nuclear scenario. The recent retreat, after piling up of forces, by India proves this. The only thing that can disintegrate Pakistan are domestic issues. I think the chance of India disintegrating it, without being destroyed itself, are next to none.

3. “All Hindutva opponents will get the death sentence and we will leave it to the people to carry this out,” he said.

This is scary, since I am an opponent of Hinduvta also. How exactly will the VHP carry it out?

4. ``Hindutva agenda — Ram temple at Ayodhya, anti-conversion law throughout the country, a common civil code, abrogation of Article 370 of the Constitution which gives a special status to Jammu and Kashmir, deportation of all Bangladeshi intruders and a statute for cow protection.``

The first and fourth will lead to a lot more violence. They have already lead to a lot of violence.

5. ``They had described the Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, as ‘khalnayak’ (villain) but the people saw him as a hero. ``

This is actually true. Modi has emerged as a people`s hero in Gujrat. He and his party kicked butt in the recent elections.

I am truly amazed at how otherwise reasonable Indians can support the RSS/VHP/BJP trioka (the three are one and the same thing). People keep saying, on this site, that the BJP is an extremist fringe element. They are in a state of denial, because it isn`t. It is the most popular party in India, i.e. more Indians like it, than any other group. What surprises me is that there are super-tech well educated Indian entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley who support it, and even send money to the BJP. There are Indian lawyers, engineers, doctors etc. who support it. I believe the actor Shatru Sinha holds a very senior position in it. Vinod Khanna is a senior member. I think (not sure) that Hema Malani is a member also. If the artists of a country start supporting an extremist party, than it is a true indication that the party is fully in the mainstream.

So I would like to ask all our Indian friends: What the hell is going on? Other than Arundhati Roy, I haven`t seen too many Indians come out on the streets, against the BJP. I get the feeling that if the BJP were to make India grow economically, most of the anti-BJP Indians would start tolerating it also.

How can a country like India, with 24 million Christians and 140 million Muslims (too small a number to have huge political clout, but too large a number to be easily suppressed) spread out all over the country, not have its social fabric ripped apart, if the BJP keeps going on for another decade or two.

Maybe, the bandwidth of our Indian friends would be better spent if they targeted all their abuse towards what the BJP is doing to India than what Pakistan is doing to India. Since Pakistan is too small to do much to India, but the BJP is going to put India into a civil war.

``Hindutva opponents to get death: VHP

By Neena Vyas

NEW DELHI: The Vishwa Hindu Parishad has warned of a “storm ahead which was not going to be limited to Gujarat” and indicated clearly that its next target would be five States — Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Delhi — where it is gearing up to spread the “Hindutva” ideology.

Praveen Togadia, VHP secretary-general, told the press here this evening what in his view constituted the important ingredients of Hindutva. “The Muslims here will enjoy the same place or status as Hindus enjoy in Pakistan, maybe even slightly better status,” he said. And as for Pakistan, the VHP was in favour of “dismembering” it, reminding everyone that “fundamentalism and extremism cannot be finished till Pakistan is dismembered.”

Muslims alone were not the target of his ire. All those who opposed Hindutva, and this certainly included secularists, would get the “death sentence” he declared. But the VHP would not have to carry out the sentence, the people would. “All Hindutva opponents will get the death sentence and we will leave it to the people to carry this out,” he said.

“Abhimanyu is not yet dead”, Mr. Togadia said. “The Mahabharat will be fought in Delhi”, he said perhaps talking about the Lok Sabha elections due in 2004.

He spelt out the Hindutva agenda — Ram temple at Ayodhya, anti-conversion law throughout the country, a common civil code, abrogation of Article 370 of the Constitution which gives a special status to Jammu and Kashmir, deportation of all Bangladeshi intruders and a statute for cow protection. It was not a coincidence that all of this is part of the well-known and declared agenda of the RSS as well as the BJP. In fact, Mr. Togadia patted the BJP. “In Gujarat, the BJP has come back to its own agenda, the Gujarat election has shown the right direction to the BJP.”

Prior to 1989, the BJP itself was a “political untouchable,” but that was not the case now, the coalition National Democratic Alliance Government was proof of this. However, even after the NDA took birth the BJP’s Hindutva agenda remained “untouchable”. Mr. Togadia and the VHP would set that right. It had already been set right in Gujarat where “our Hindutva agenda has become touchable (acceptable),” he argued.

Gujarat had, in fact, “finished the credibility of the secularists”. They had described the Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, as ‘khalnayak’ (villain) but the people saw him as a hero. Those who had said that the VHP belonged to the ‘lunatic fringe’ were wrong. “I have moved centre-stage, and they (secularists) have become the impotent fringe.”

He had addressed 60 meetings during the election campaign, and he need not remind Mr. Modi what the VHP expected of him. “He knows it well, he will not forget.” —The Hindu (www.dailytimes.com.pk)

Ref Urstruly #149

[The election of Hindu religious nuts can either be wrong or it can be right.....it can`t be right and wrong at the same time. So if hindus support the election of their government they should do so without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims and if they do not support the election of hindu religious nuts they should do it without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims.]

Okay, Jinnah is great!

[Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside.]

I guess the (Hindu) hooligans inside the train also managed to lock it from outside so that they cannot escape from the fire. All in the service of Lord Ram, I suppose. Or, do you think it is a Zionist conspiracy and the Jews managed to roast the Hindus alive and blamed it on the Muslims? By the way, do you believe that Mossad warned 4,000 Jews working at the World Trade Center to stay away from work on Sept 11, 2001?

By the way, the trains in India have bars on their windows so nobody can slip out of the train or enter it except through the doors.

[Let us also not forget the Muslim woman who was forced into the boggey by the hooligans, which actually prompted the stone throwing match.]

In case you haven`t read my posts, I have NOT forgotten the Muslim Girl, who has been nameless for the past 10 months now, daughter of the Muslim Tea Vendor at the Godhra train station, who is also nameless but has attained mythic status as simple the Muslim Tea Vendor. Did the Muslim Girl die in the fire? Was she miraculously rescued by either the crowd or by the Angel Gibreel? How come whether it is FarceAnna Versey or Chandrasekhar of the New York Times (a good Hindu name, in case you don`t know it) haven`t been able to identify either the Muslim Girl or the Muslim Tea Vendor? At least Chandrasekhar can claim that he went off to cover more important stories after printing hearsay but how about our Fearless Heroine FarceAnna? She lives a couple of hundred miles from Ahmedabad and Godhra, has no qualms about putting a bindi on her forehead to hide her Islamic identity, and could very well have investigated the identity of The Muslim Girl and The Muslim Tea Vendor.

And yes, Jinnah is great!

Ref irfan_h #150

[One of the most gruesome accounts was that about the death of Kausar Bano, a pregnant woman of Naroda Patiya. She was raped, tortured, her womb was slit open with a sword; her foetus was torn out, hacked to pieces and burnt alive with its mother]

Please write this up in either JAMA as a new medical fact or in some religious magazine as expounding the power of Allah.

The foetus survived after being torn out of the uterus and thus deprived of its supply of oxygen through the umbilical cord, survived the trauma of being hacked to pieces so that it can be burnt ALIVE?

Now you know why I don`t believe in newspaper reports.

Ref 12-Head #161

[Vote for bigotry
Arab News Editorial 16 December 2002

If the election that has just taken place in Gujarat, where the BJP has been re-elected by a landslide, had happened in Europe or elsewhere in the West, there would be an international outcry, with demands for a boycott of the country and that something be done about it.]

Wow! That explains why the Arabs don`t bother with elections! They want to avoid the international botcott that might arise out of their human rights practices.