The Unmaking Of Gujrat

ew #202
As far as I know there has been mention of only arrests in the Ehsan Jafri/Gulberg? society case. I have not seen any mention in the press of forensic investigation like in the Godhra case, nor attempts by the state to arrive at an authoritative description of the sequence of events, except during in the period just after the incident.

Unless the press pays attention, those who are really guilty will not be arrested, and those arrested will not be proceeded against with sufficient vigor much less convicted. Contrast this with the Godhra case which is already so advanced in court that you are able to quote testimony of witnesses. I don`t know if the difference is POTA process vs ordinary judicial process.

The judicial `enquiry` the Gujarat BJP mentions talks of only Godhra, not post-Godhra if I am not mistaken.

If an ordinary citizen like me is thoroughly outraged at this contrast, where the heck is the outrage in the so-called pseudo-secular media?

Another example of how justice will not be done is that though there have been arrest in connection with Naroda-Patia, one of the women named as participating/inciting the mobs in Naroda-Patia, a VHP activist has been elected MLA.

I agree all this pseudo-secular (from a `secular` point of view) handwaving by people like Arundhati Roy serves India ill. She(like many others) would rather take an opportunistic dig at her political opponents than uncover the truth.

stuka #204
From what little I know, Jaswant Singh`s fallout with RSS is more due to Reliance vs. anti-Reliance backroom politics of Delhi than any other issue. Influence of Reliance is one open-secret most people don`t seem acknowledge. Will Reliance allow Gujrat to go to the dogs when they have two huge investments there?
regards

[ #203 by AmericanExpress on December 18, 2002 1:52pm PT
...
About Arundhati Roy she was incorrect in Jaffris daughters murder b/c that was information given to her.She is not a reporter even though she can be called free lanced writer .She has feeds & incorrect feeds are expected to be challenged that doesnt make her LIAR or any other writer who is OPEN to correction as Arundhati proved her self to be.
The story of pregnant woman has been checked & found to becorrect.It may not be Jaffris daughter or not even Saeedas case but atleast one such case happened by my reading of various sources & can dig it up if you want . ]

Yes but her description of these crimes were as if she knew. She writes in the same language as if she is a serious journalist who has confidence that her facts are right. There is nothing wrong writing about events which you have learned second hand, but then you will write with caution and you will impress on the minds of reader that events being described are learnt second hand.

[Communal riots in India is not uncommon .Even if we forget Godhra ,Ahmedabad since 1967 is repeatedly in the news .The fact that even in 47 & up untill 67 Gujrat was one of the safest for muslims.Taking ascending militancy i would give more benefit of the doubt to Muslims of Gujrat than `Godhra caused Post Godhra Carnage .2000 people died `......Godhra just may have been engineered.If you think politicians would not risk 58 lives ,in the equation of loss & gain many a gujju easily would spend 58 for humungous profit of 2000! ]

Exactly like 9/11?

-ew

AlephNull:

I am aware of Jaswant Singh not being a member of the RSS. However, in terms of ideology, he is close to the RSS and in public life has defended them. His fallout with the RSS has been recent, that too because of Sudarshan`s inclination towards Swadeshi and Jaswant Singh`s preference for a free economy. This dichotomy towards economic policy has strained relationships between the BJP and the RSS since the 90s.

As far as Jaswant Singh`s worldview is concerned, he is closely aligned with the RSS. Your assertion that the RSS is suspicious of his commitment is absolutely correct, but compare him to the VHP leaders and you will see what I mean.

Stuka #200

{Currently, there is a power struggle going on in the BJP. Jaswant Singh, Advani, Vajpayee, ``the seniors`` all owe allegiance to the RSS. These are the ideology driven intellectuals. }

Stuka, Jaswant Singh may be something of an intellectual, but AFAIK he not only has never been an RSS member but has been in the bad books of the Nagpur crowd, to the extent that they nixed his name as Vajpayee`s choice for Finance Minister in 1998. Vajpayee himself has been under periodic attack from the Parivar`s right wing, presumably for being insufficiently committed to their cause. Not sure how this affects your claims of a current power struggle, though.

[ #179 by sadna on December 17, 2002 7:42am PT
...
In summary, inflammable liquid was spilled near seat 72(one end of the coach near one pair of open doors), the end adjoining S7. Thats where the fire began and spread towards the other end of the coach.

Since the fire started on the S7 side, the conclusion one can draw is that passengers couldnot use the doors on that side even though both the doors were open. On the opposite side(near S5) there was only one door open. Thats the side on which most passengers died. The coach was also heavily stoned from outside. ]

sadna, thanks for posting these links.

I am just copying last 2 paragraphs from last link:

``After inflammable material, most likely petrol, was poured inside the coach, the fire started raging from near seat number 72, which was nearest to the door. Not less than 60 litres of the inflammable material was poured into the coach, before setting it on fire.``

I am trying to do no analysis of these words. Just wanted record it on chowk pages because someone (I think urstruly) said no inflammable material was poured into S-6, which is obviously not true.

[The amount of detail about this incident which is available in the media is in stunning contrast to the total absence of detail available about the subsequent instances of Hindu mob violence, esp against Ehsan Jafri. Thats something which is totally beyond understanding and casts doubts on even the English language press.

It was one thing to keep mute to allow passions to die down and prevent further loss of life, but after these elections, such media silence will only become another reason for murderers and rapists to walk free. ]

I agree but you should not content just finding material on web to arrive your conclusion. There may be completely innocuous reason why detail is missing on web. Some of the Indian newspapers may not have storage resource to maintain archives online. If a story was published simultaneously in print also, it would be available from back issues office of the newspaper.

We certainly do not need journalists like Arundhati Roy. She gave an account of how Ehsan Jafri`s daughter was stripped and burnt alive and then later admitted that it was an error, because the daughter was not even in India! She did tender an apology but her credibility would become tarnished for ever. In another piece called ``Democracy`` she writes opening paragraph which follows:

``Last night a friend from Baroda called. Weeping. It took her fifteen minutes to tell me what the matter was. It wasn`t very complicated. Only that Sayeeda, a friend of hers, had been caught by a mob. Only that her stomach had been ripped open and stuffed with burning rags. Only that after she died, someone carved `OM` on her forehead.``

About this story I read somewhere that she wouldn`t provide information about Sayeeda to police even after requested. I can understand that she would not give her friend`s or any other source`s identity. But why not identity of person killed?

We do not need this type of journalists. We do not need cut-and-paste typist babus for journalists working from comfort of their air-conditioned offices. We need foot soldiers of journalism who go out and gather information from primary sources even at great risk of their lives.

-ew

Sadna:

Very much the latter interpretation. I would not be surprised to see the RSS go the way of the Hindu Mahasabha, the original ideological fountainhead of the ``Sangh.``

Veer Savarkar, Godse et al were all Hindu Mahasabha members, supported by Hegdewar`s RSS. Currently, there is a power struggle going on in the BJP. Jaswant Singh, Advani, Vajpayee, ``the seniors`` all owe allegiance to the RSS. These are the ideology driven intellectuals. The middle rung BJP, the prominent ones are Katiyar, Togadia etc. They owe their allegience to the VHP, not the RSS.

The Sangh Parivar may be one, but the center of power is shifting.

stuka #185
Could you elaborate? Since you bring it up, Narendra Modi a former RSS pracharak is so-called `OBC`. And how about all those brahmin Acharyas something-or-the-other roaming around as VHP members? And the fact that in central Gujarat, there was for the first time a heavy involvement of Dalits and Adivasis in the violence?

Unless you mean the caste terms `generically` and not literally , ie, the VHP is more profit-motive-oriented noncerebral Hindutva while the RSS is more ideologically-oriented intellectual Hindutva.

...it`s about time...one of the pigs is quite funny...after the death sentence was announced, he said ``If asking for liberation for Kashmir is terrorism, then I`m a terrorist.``....boohoo, someone cry him a river...

...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

{Three Sentenced to Die for Indian Parliament Raid

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 6:28 a.m. ET

NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- Three Indian men were sentenced to death Wednesday for their role in a deadly attack on Parliament that brought India to the brink of war with Pakistan.}

American Express 154
``Would TRILLIUM tell them first not to talk of GODHRA .AND before causing carnage 2000 humans STOP BRIDEBURNING & WEEP FOR THEM FIRST.``

Amex -
You bet we have to talk about Godhra.
We`re in agreement more than you know, but there are a few statements to be made which remain unrecognized:

1. Ghodra is part of a two-headed and head-splitting cycle of violence shared by Pakistan and India.
2. Ghodra is another atrocity of an ongoing religious war shared by Pakistan and India.
3. Bride Burning is a cultural problem shared by Pakistan and India.
4. Pakistan and India share strongly patriarchal societies.
5. Opposing extremist religious elements are shared by Pakistan and India and passively supported by the majority.
6. India and Pakistan claim, theoretically, democratic principles and `protection` for religious minorities.
7. Pakistan and India both have political systems governed by religious majorities.

Yeah, Amex, we have to talk about a lot of things, but the focus here seems to be beating the same Dead Horses of Godhra, Kashmir, Babri Mashid, ad infinitum, ad nauseum... at least centuries of ammunition, and now, with nuclear weapons. Political leaders who`ve brazenly and irresponsibly ignored its people`s need for infrastructure and social justice, are now to be trusted with nuclear weapons by the rest of the world. Right....

Re: Godot # 188

Yes, I have been a member of this community since 1998 and what was once a noble idea is just another misguided dream.

Ciao

It is ridiculous how hindu apologists all over india are implying that muslim massacre in Gujarat was carried out by some miscreants who have no connection with hindus. The popular argument seems to be suggesting that the RSS gangs are only a tiny fraction of hindus and are outcasts therefore worthy of being ignored. It is time to have the spine to say the truth. The reality is that the hatred for muslims is so deeply entrenched in the hearts of hindus that it only needs a small trigger to unleash.
Hindus have seen again and again that whenever there is a cricket match between pakistan and India in Indore ( or wherever in India ) there is a huge muslim youth rooting for the paki team. They have seen year after year that they cannot take out Ganesh procession in some areas in their supposedly ``free`` country while the yearly moharram procession passes of peacefully. They have seen again and again that when hindu muslim riots break out it is almost always the knife wielding muslim youth that begins the bloody carnage on unsuspecting drivers and city bus passengers in muslim localities. They have seen that muslims ghettoize themselves in to exclusive muslim neighborhoods. They have seen that muslims always complain about unfair treatment at jobs while not making any real efforts towards education. They have seen that muslims multiply like crazy and muslim sons have a standard profession of either motor cycle mechanic or a cycle repairer or a butcher at a local meat shop. They have seen that muslims really don`t have any real emotional attachment to the land that they live in while unfailingly demanding all the privileges that the land has to offer. They have seen that muslims are demanding a seccession of kashmir based exclusively on the religion and nothing else. They have seen their sons body bags coming out of Kargil mountains and thousands of kashmiri hindus killed or evicted from their ancestoral land of kashmir. They have seen that nomatter how big the appeasement may be they have to always hear the complaints from muslims.

Things don`t happen in thin air. The hatred has been brewing in hindu hearts for decades and it has shown it`s ugly head in Gujarat.

Shah ( # 189 ) :


And smartie Chap Sri is a Jew ,Christian,British,American,Dalit ,OBC (who knows he may be ilegitimate too)Serbs ...what not to know that


A classic ``expected`` answer from a Muslim apologist. Instead of answering to the point, totally deflect the topic even to the extent of questioning my legitimacy/ existence. A totally cheapest of the cheap tactic. Dear friend, if you have any questions regarding my identity, you can look up my posts on Chowk for the past 3 or 4 years. I think you will find one of my posts seriously bashing brahmins. I am a dalit from india and proudly tell it to anybody who asks me about my roots.

PS: Does your thickhead ever wonder that why dalits had so much anger on muslims in Gujarat. Now don`t give me the standard bull that hindus tricked them in to it. That suggests that dalits are these dumb idiots who can`t figure out things for themselves ( and very racist argument too ).

Harpo,

Throw a few tomatoes and rotten eggs for me too will ya!

MBenzEnglish, I happened to check your profile and saw NOT to my surprise that out of 18 posts 5 of your posts were rejected. I started reading the 13 published, but this strange thing happened, my head started spinning and I got the headache of my life. Anyways bro whatever you`re smoking, share man!

Urstruly #163. I was debating whether or not to educate you on the origins of the 12 o` clock joke. It has something to do with Nadir Shah, Abdali...heroes of yours are they? Anyways, I decided NOT! No sense in debating with a moron.

Farzana,

Like always, you’ve stroked the flames. And you make it sound like the blaze will continue for a longer time.

Some Indians on this board need to seriously look at their outbursts toward you. When there is a tragedy it has to cause introspection at least. Not these outbursts of finger pointing at others. Even if others intentionally start to mock.

Even though Pakistan has had it’s share of sectarian crimes, what seems like happening in Gujrat sounds far worse. Maybe cause the scale is larger or that we’re actually seeing the fascist Hindus go for the kill and succeeding in the name of democracy. The fascists have the state machinery at their disposal to wreck havoc with lives. And no one can stop them. Not even the secular credentials of the state. BJP is a fascist fundo fuks paradise!


PS) Modi looks like the twin brother of a serial killer in Lahore who a couple of years ago was caught having kidnapped over 100 kids, sodomized them and then diluted them in acid. The resemblance between Modi and the serial killer is striking in more ways then one!

I feel sick to my stomach after reading these comments here. All of you are wondering that how all that is hapening could happen, but have you all seen onto yourselves. Have you ever wondered how much hate you guys and gals have toward each other. Shame on all of you...
You think you can ever solve this problem of hate killing by hate, no way. you are the problem yourself. I am a new comer to Chowk, but it seems like I wont be able to stay here longer, `cos you people make me sick and make me believe that there is no solution to the Pakistan India problem as long as a single Pakistani or Indian is alive.
I hope for a peaceful future, but realistically speaking I dont see one in near future...