The Unmaking Of Gujrat

Godot is providing Urstruly a ``not a hater`` certificate! Heh, heh, most amusing....


Sort of like Jesse Helms providing Trent Lott a ``not a racist`` certificate...

or

Bal Thackery providing Narendra Modi a ``not a hindu extremist`` certificate

or

...

You get the idea. The one things that is most amusing about all of these fanatics is their clarity and consistency in supporting irrational and negative statements. Urstruly exemplifies it and godot is no slouch at it.

Re: Godot

Your post, on the nature of hate language on Chowk, was very instructive. You have really made some astute observations, but ask yourself why people hate? They hate, because hate easily dehumanizes the person and makes it easy to belittle his/her claims/arguments. It is much easier to hate someone if you demonize him/her and thus, justify your contempt for them and their arguments.

The process is simple. First demonize, which enables you to dehumanize them and that allows you to make them impersonal. Impersonalization is a balm, which rationalizes your hate and justifies your own irrationality.

As for Urstruly and his being sighted for victimization on Chowk, the answer is simple. We always hate the mirror for what it reflects and if the reflection is worthy of our praise, we credit ourselves and if it is not, we blame the poor quality of the mirror. Urstruly reflects a viewpoint, which is not appreciated and it much easier to hate him and lessen his point of view by dehumanizing him; it is just a case of killing the messenger, because of the message he conveys.

As to why Indian interactors and their hate is allowed to go unchecked, the answer is that it is very difficult to convince someone that they are wrong, when they do not wish to be convinced. The hate on Chowk is Pavolvian and it cannot be reasoned - the dog urinates on the water hydrant not because he wants to, but because he does not know any better.

This is true for Pakistanis and Indians on this site; one has a superiority complex and other has chip on their shoulder. Who is right and who is wrong? Does it really matter in the end? You shoot yourself in the head and I poison myself. The methodology might be different, but it is still suicide by any other name. Right? The same applies with hate; it makes no difference, because the end is the same - an absence of reason. Hate like homocide can be rationalized but it never justified and when you justify hate, you have commited an intellectual euthanasia.

Godot, yaar, hate is a facinating phenomena to study. Hate offers a sense of belonging and a sense of security from fear. What is one scared of? One is scared of what one beholds. Hate, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. Have you ever noticed that we despise the person who most remembles us and respect the person we wish to emulate. What does that say about Indians and Pakistanis? LOL

Remember, we hate and we despise that which reminds us of our true selves, because we constantly live in denial and anything, which undermies our world of denial, undermines our own sense of worth.

Ciao

This is the biggest disability - the inability to see anything, to ever acknowledge the truth.

September 11 - Jews did it. How could innocent students fly planes?

Bali - CIA did it. Why would anybody else do it?

Indian parliament - Indians did it. Why didn`t the building fall?

Christians killed in Pakistan - Christians bombed one another to give Muslims a bad name.

Always, everytime, only one reaction. Blindness. Followed by genocidal hate.

>No, you are not a hate-monger. I know that. The greatest proof of that >is you list among your favorite writers a Hindu: Krishan Chandar

A new definition of not being a hate monger.

Those trying to talk facts with urstruly must be a brave lot.

irfan_h #150
Thats indeed a horrible and unbearable picture of bestiality.

That report if I am not mistaken was tabled recently in the Parliament, and political leaders got away with simply spouting a lot of hot air. The timing of the release of the report was also misguided, instead of releasing it a few months ago, well in time for it to be publicised widely, it was released just before the elections. And I read somewhere that the polarization between the communities is so severe, most people refuse to believe these testimonies.

We have a long way to go, even to begin to accept, let along demand justice and heal the rifts. According to me waging this sort of war against ones fellow citizens is an clear act of sedition, as is condoning it. Its an act of sedition as well to propagate hatred against a community (and then call it an `experiment` to be repeated elsewhere).

Here is one small attempt to bridge the divide:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/mag/stories/2002121500620300.htm

blacks were treated like animals until the 1960`s. therefore americans should not have taken part in the liberation of europe until they had insured equality for all americans at home.

Urstruly (163),

No, you are not a hate-monger. I know that. The greatest proof of that is you list among your favorite writers a Hindu: Krishan Chandar. Anyone who does not see that is blind. I say screw those blind a-hole men and women.

I do stick my neck out for what is truth. And I greatly admire Farzana for her courage. Screw the ones who hate when she writes the truth. They are a bunch of a-holes who do not know any better. Let their country go to hell. Maybe that`s the vision thay have for their country: play holi with blood and be merry.

Urstruly - While you`re championing the cause of Muslim women, there
are many times more of our Muslim sisters dying at the hands of
Muslims. Here are a few. They`re usually tucked away in the back of The
Dawn and The News, usually three or four every night - and these are
the ones REPORTED. Read `em and weep.

151 by Urstruly on December 16, 2002 11:16am P
``This is our fault. This is because of our weekness that our Muslim
sisters were subject to this inhumanity. It is a shame that no one talks about 3000+ women who are still missing and presumably were sold to the brothels across india by hindu genocidal maniacs. We and only we bear the responsibility for their misery. We failed to protect them. How can we blame hindus; when we knew that they are destined to kill; they are determined to rape; they have no shame; they have no mercy for women, or children, or human beings, especially, if they are Muslims.``



Pakistan News Service

``In these cases, during police interrogation it was told by the
in-laws of the deceased that while the women were preparing meals,
they had caught fire from the burning stoves. But in due course the
secret of their having been burnt instead of being allowed talaq
(or divorce), came to light. In both cases, at the time of their

marriages, each of the brides had demanded a heavy mehr (or dowry) of about a hundred thousand Pakistani rupees from the groom. If the husbands divorced them,they would have to shell out the large amount as mehr. So they adopted the much cheaper way of getting rid of their wives in a short time. The large amounts of mehr are registered in the marriage papers (nikahnama).
Though discouraged, the frivolous divorce it certainly did,
but it encouraged bride-burning as a cheap alternative and the
inordinate mehr amounts proves a fatal practice for the women.
In fact talaq and multiple marriages do not restrict the
atrocities heaped upon the hapless women, but on the contrary,
aggravate the situation.``


The News - 10/21
On August 22, 2000, few prominent newspapers of the country reported
the news that a woman died from burns in a local hospital Lahore.
Kulsoom Bibi, 35, a resident of Sharifpura, Manawan, was busy cooking
when her clothes are reported to have caught fire. She sustained
critical burn wounds and was admitted to the hospital. As she died due
to burn injuries the hospital handed over her body without autopsy.
The LHRLA is also pursuing the case of Aisha who died on December 5,
2000, due to burn injuries. According to details, she was admitted to
the PNS Shifa in a critical condition on October 3, with 70 percent
burns, allegedly caused by her husband, Ataullah, who is now in police
custody. Another deplorable aspect of the story is that the accused
resided in the house of an Imam. The LHRLA believes that violence
against women is increasing day by day and is rarely brought to the
notice of the public or press unless the women die or suffer gruesome
injuries. ``It is very deplorable that hundreds of women die every year
by the hands of their husbands or in-laws and then it is claimed that
they died when their cooking stove burst.`` It is also noteworthy that
the cases of burning to death are rarely, if ever, investigated
meticulously by the police, and post-mortem examinations are hardly
ever performed, Bhatti said.

KARACHI: Young woman dies of burns

By Our Reporter
KARACHI, May 31: A young woman died of burns while two others suffered serious burn injuries in separate incidents and in various parts of the city, on Friday. Police said that Fahmeeda, aged 22, suffered burns
while working in the kitchen of her house in Quaidabad. Police said that the victim`s clothes caught fire while she was in the
kitchen. She was rushed to Civil Hospital where she was pronounceddead by the medico-legal officer.
In another incident, a housewife, Shamim, aged 35, suffered serious
burns in her house in Landhi. She was taken to Civil Hospital where she
was admitted for treatment. Her husband is being quetioned.
Hospital sources said that the victim suffered 96 per cent burns and
was in serious condition at the hospital`s burns ward. The police,
quoting family sources, said that the victim`s husband had allegedly
burnt her.

In a third incident, Kaniz Fatima, aged 37, suffered burn injuries in
her house in Nasir Colony, Korangi. The victim was shifted to Civil
Hospital where she was admitted for treatment. Police drew a blank
about the details of the incident.


ABBOTTABAD, March 26: One Safya Bibi of Bandi Sarara, Abbottabad, died of burns, which she suffered two days back in mysterious circumstances, in the Ayub Medical Complex here. ...

KARACHI: Young woman dies of burns
KARACHI, May 31: A young woman died of burns while two others suffered serious burn injuries in separate incidents and in various parts of the city, on Friday. Police said that Fahmeeda, aged 22, suffered burns
while working in the kitchen of her house in Quaidabad. ...

Dawn
DIES OF BURNS: A 19-year-old girl succumbed to her burn injuries in a
hospital on Saturday. She had suffered the burns on Nov 29. Reports
said that Mumtaz was cooking at her Korangi residence when her clothes
had caught fire. She had received severe burn injuries and was taken to
a hospital where she died on Saturday. The body was handed over to her relatives without postmortem.

DAWN - Lahore
Sajida Bibi died at the Mayo Hospital. She was brought to the hospital
four days ago with critical burns, the hospital staff said. Her husband
Basharat Masih told police that she committed suicide. Her family,
however, alleged that she was burnt by her husband over family
disputes.

Dawn
Rehana, 18-year-old daughter of Chand Babu, was received serious
injuries in an attempt at suicide in her Korangi residence. She was a
resident of house No 1659 in 51-C area. She sprinkled kerosene oil over
her body and set herself ablaze due to unknown reasons. As a result,
she received burns wounds over 89 per cent of her body. Her family
immediately rushed Rehana to the Civil Hospital. The police were
informed about the incident, however, the motive of the incident could
not be ascertained till late in the night.

Dawn
Sumaira (17) died in the Burns Ward of Civil Hospital. She had received
burns wounds while cooking at her Manzoor Colony residence, lying in
Mehmoodabad police limits, on November 19. She was rushed to the
hospital in a serious condition but lost the battle for life.

DAWN
Burns victims die: Two teen aged burns victims, including a girl died
at a hospital on Thusday. Shaista, an 18-year-old burns victim from
Korangi died at Civil Hospital. The sources at the hospital said that
the deceased was admitted after receiving burns wounds at her home on

March 4 last.
The News
Seventeen-year-old Nagina Bibi in Tarali Kalan near Islamabad, was
engaged by her father to her cousin but her brother wanted her to marry
his wife`s brother. After her brother saw her talk to the cousin chosen
by their father on the street, he and another brother on 14 April 1994
reportedly tied Nagina with a rope to a wooden post in their home,
sprinkled kerosene over her and set her on fire. Neighbours had her
admitted to a hospital with 75% burns, which the family claimed to be
due to a stove bursting. Nagina told doctors that her brother had set
her on fire because she had disobeyed him. The Progressive Women`s
Association investigated the case and had a case registered against the
brothers, both of whom were arrested. One of the brothers admitted that
he had burned Nagina with the help of his brother, because she had
taken the liberty to talk to her cousin on the street. Nagina died
after 23 painful days in hospital. It is not known at present if the
brothers` case has gone to court.

godot: # 157

Voh butoN ney daalay hain vasvasay
keh diloN sey khuf e khudaa gayaa.

Godot

I am not a hatemonger but thanks for sticking your neck out for me. The only person who needs our moral support is Farzana Versey, who once again has been muzzled by hindu fascists by threats of ``legal ramifications``. Please do not forget that this great woman lost her job for speaking out and standing up for truth and her hindu boss who fired her, was jumping like a monkey on a trampoline here at chowk and boasting his service to the country and religion. She is the one who is raising her voice of dissent in front of oppressors and genocidal maniacs without fear; doing the best of Jehad, living right inside the belly of the beast.

I do not hate hindus, I hate cowards, liars, goebles, killers and genocidal maniacs. Unfortunately, not only in this case they are hindus, but claim to be proud hindus. They are cowards because they are scared of 9% i.e. nine percent Muslims of Gujrat. God what pissants these %&^% are, they fear that 9% of minoriyty is going to take over their country. Jeez.

Punjaban

Once there was a sikh conference held to figure out after all what happens to sikhs at exactly 12 O` Clock noon. There was a heated discussion in the room when suddenly clock hit 12. As it happened all the sikhs climbed on the center table. The table could not bear their weight and collapsed under them. After few minutes when that ``heavy`` hour passed and they gathered their senses they postponed the meeting to the next day at 11:30 am.

Banjaara (160),

You are absolutely right. This is an absolute shame on Pakistan and the wrong must be corrected. I like to believe that us Pakistanis are much better in dealing with our problems, questioning everything under the sun. An open discussion about the wrongs done is a sign of a mature and an enlightened culture and society. However, you are shifting the focus of the present article in your post. The shame of Pakistan you point to should be a topic discussed at Chowk and brought out in open on another board (I do hope someone knowledgeable about what you write writes something about it, maybe you can help by writing an article.)

All flaws of Pakistan, no hold bar, should be discussed openly at Chowk, not with menace and hatred but seriously and scholarly. That is the only way to make Pakistan a better country.

However, this board is dealing with something completely different. It has nothing to do with Pakistan.

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urstruly#151

[This is our fault. This is because of our weekness that our Muslim sisters were subject to this inhumanity. It is a shame that no one talks about 3000+ women who are still missing and presumably were sold to the brothels across india by hindu genocidal maniacs. ]

Urstruly ji,
So you want to become the Mohammed Bin Qasim of 21st century? Do you realize how phony you sound with your crocodile tears for the muslims of India, especially when 260,000 Pakistanis ( officially referred to as Biharis)are languishing in Bangladesh since 1971. How come you never protest about the thousands of Bengladeshi women who are sold to the Pakistani brothels every year. How come you never speak about the
small children sold to the Gulf states for as little as Dirhams 10,000= How about the murder of the shia community and the Ahmedi community and the christians and the step-motherly treatment of the mohajirs and the treatment of the smaller provinces by the majority province. With so many problems at home, you are concerned with Kashmir and Gujarat and the Hindu.

Andaaz-e-bayaN gar che bahut shokh nahiN hai
shaayed ke utar jaay tere dil meiN meri baat

[ #149 by Urstruly on December 16, 2002 9:14am PT
...
Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside. ]

Can you post a link or the report?

I know at least one journalist who had reported on ongoing sessions of a Gujarat High Court judge which was looking into this affair. The journalist is Sheela Bhatt of rediff.com. What I remember is that jerry cans were carried to the coach and train was stopped and a person climbed by tearing up the protective clothe which cover between coach passage and entered the coach. I do not know what jerry cans are.

Urstruly, so much hatred is not good if it blinds you to even the process of discovery of truth. The aftermath was unacceptable. However main event is also not acceptable. Not for nothing Hindus feels under siege. Whipping up more hatred is not answer. Healing is the need of hour. Modi has said he wants to work for all Gujaratis including those who did not vote for BJP. He is suspect and probably guilty before trial.

But fact finding is only way. For example somebody mentioned Ehsan Jaffry. Ehsan Jaffry`s murder needs to be investigated. Witch hunting and short circuited investigations are not answer. Surmise, conjectures, theories are not answer.

-ew

[ #149 by Urstruly on December 16, 2002 9:14am PT
...
Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside. ]

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/22godhra.htm

cut and paste of only text follows:

----- begin of cut and paste from above URL -----

Youth`s testimony throws new light on Godhra attack
EXCLUSIVE!
Sheela Bhatt in Godhra
Giving a sensational new turn to the investigation of the Godhra massacre, a Hindu youth, who has admitted to having been a member, albeit unwilling, of the group that ferried inflammable material to the spot where the Sabarmati Express was stopped on the fateful morning of February 27, has given a blow-by-blow account of the events that set Gujarat ablaze.

The picture emerging from his statement suggests that the masterminds of the attack were not Congress politicians Mohammed Hussain Kalota and Bilal Haji, but local businessman Razak Kurkur (seen at right in an old picture from the police files) and his associate Salim Paanwala, who ran a paan shop at the Godhra railway station and provoked the mob to attack the train.

The boy, a tea vendor at Godhra station, who shall be identified only as Ajay, made his revelations in a statement before Judicial Magistrate, First Class, A R Patel of the Godhra railway court on July 29.

His eight-page statement has been recorded under section 164 of the Criminal Procedure Code at Anand, when the court was on tour, and, if it stands scrutiny in court, may finally lay the vexed Godhra case to rest. The statement is admissible as evidence because it was given voluntarily and recorded before a magistrate.

A source in Godhra said Ajay`s conscience had been hurting him, so he decided to speak out even though he got involved in the incident in a `spirit of community living.`

In his statement, the source said, Ajay not only narrated the chilling sequence of events that lead to the torching of the train`s compartment #S6, resulting in the death of 59 passengers, but also named all those involved in actually setting the bogie alight.

Till February 27, Ajay, who is aged 17 or 18, lived with his family in the heart of Signal Falia, the Muslim-dominated quarter near the Godhra railway station from where a frenzied crowd had rushed and attacked the compartment.

Many of the accused in the case are known to Ajay, having been his neighbours in Signal Falia or co-workers at the Godhra railway station.

According to the youth`s statement, he left his home in Signal Falia at 0700 IST on February 27 and went to his employer Mahboob Fofa`s house to collect a pot of tea. From there he headed for the railway station where a `deluxe` train soon arrived from Baroda.

A little later, the Sabarmati Express chugged in. Ajay could hear loud chants of ` Jai Sri Ram.`

A few minutes later, Ajay saw his employer Fofa and Mehboob Latika, another tea vendor, run towards the engine of the Sabarmati Express, screaming that another tea vendor, Siddique Bakkar by name, was being beaten by karsevaks.

Ajay was then outside compartment #S3. He too was stopped by some karsevaks and asked to chant `Jai Sri Ram.`

Ajay complied, but when the karsevaks asked Latika to chant the slogan, he refused. The angry karsevaks began manhandling him, but Latika managed to break free and run, shouted that people were being beaten up.

As the train began pulling out, someone pulled the emergency alarm chain. Ajay had by this time left the station and reached Rasid Raji`s shop in Signal Falia. He saw a dozen autorickshaws (three-wheeler vehicles) coming towards the slum colony from the station. Each autorickshaw was carrying four or five men who quickly alighted and began throwing stones at the train.

At this point, according to Ajay`s statement, a few of his acquaintances in Signal Falia, like Saukat Lalu, Irfan Bhobha and Rafique Bhatuk went behind a property owned by Kurkur, who also owns a guesthouse facing the station.

Saukat Lalu, also a tea vendor, asked Ajay to accompany him. Ajay says he did not know at that point what was being planned or what he was expected to do. He stood outside Kurkur`s house along with a few other tea vendors. After a few minutes Rafique Bhatuk came out with a can (called karbo in local parlance, which is used to store inflammable material) and gave it to Irfan Bhobha. ``Aa karbo rickshaw maa muki de [Keep this can in the rickshaw],`` the latter told Ajay.

The contents of the can smelt like kerosene, but out of fear, says Ajay, he obeyed. Nine other boys carrying similar cans, swords, and pipes went back to the station in autorickshaws, Ajay with them. The youth claims he accompanied them because he was forced to.

The group went behind a white cabin near the station, alighted, and rushed towards the train, which had been stopped some distance away from the platform. Saukat Lalu asked Ajay to go along with them. Another member of the group, Maheboob Chanda, snatched Ajay`s can of inflammable material.

Ajay, who has narrated all the events as he remembers them in chronological order, also named not just the arsonists but also all the members of the first group that began pelting stones on the train, the Godhra source said. His version matches that of some of the passengers on that train.

On page six of his statement, Ajay has described in detail how the boys in his group torched compartment #S6. According to him, they first tried to burn compartment #S2, but alert passengers inside foiled them.

They then went to compartment #S6 and slit open the vestibule between #S6 and #S7. Six boys, including Rafique Bhatur, Saukat Lalu, Irfan Bhobha, and Sheru, then boarded the compartment and splashed their inflammable material inside.

Ajay says he stood outside. When he saw a crowd beating up Rafique Bhatur, he ran from the place and went home, only to find a group of local Muslims trying to set it on fire. His neighbours prevented them, but Ajay and his family had to shift to his uncle`s house.

He claims he was threatened not to tell anyone what he had witnessed about the attack. He is now in hiding, fearing for his life.

----- end of cut and paste -----

-ew

Why the hell is Urstruly being singled-out as the Muslim hate-monger, while the Hindu hate-mongers at Chowk go scot-free? The hatred displayed by the Hindus at Chowk towards Muslims/Pakistan is a lot more lethal, venemous, and disturbing than Urstruly`s towards Hindus. Yet no one at Chowk questions the hatred posted by the Hindus, but everybody`s up Urstruly`s ass. It just reaffirms my thoughts that Pakistanis at Chowk are a lot more decent, tolerant, intropective, self-critical, and civilized lot than the people from the ancient ``civilization.`` Civilization my foot. These Hindu a-holes at Chowk and those who voted for Modi are stuck in the lower rung of evolutionary process of civilization.

Urstruly,

Give ity up, friend. You are pissing against the wind.