The Unmaking Of Gujrat

Talking about the muslim heart.
I just fail to understand what these muslim guys and gals want out of life.wherever in the world they are not in a majority they fail to adjust and live with others.now everybody but the muslim could not be at fault for this right?
Take muslim minorities with christians.USA, Russia,France,former Yugoslavia.They are just not willing to live in peace.no sir, we cannot live with kafirs can we?we want our own damn islamic republic or a kinghdom or dictatorship which would be even better.
Muslims with jews.Better not talk about it.
Musims with hindus.India has been ravaged by their rampant population explosion, backwardness and a rigidity to change.
now it seems they have a spat coming up with buddhists in sri lanka and china.
they had already displaced the zoarastrians from iran ages back.
what next?
Beware, the Lapps of finland.do not allow muslims into your midst or we could see some kind of terrorist activitity in scandidavia too!!!

Ref ali87 #261

That part about ``...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long.... `` is a quote from rsaxena. I was responding to his post by quoting him first.

When are you going to learn to read?

#248 by harimau on December 22, 2002 9:33am PT
...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

So your Idea of free will and democracy similar to the reaction of pakistan in the case of bangladesh...

Great!!

Your Idea of treason is similar to the medvial age where the kings held areas wether people liked it or not.

If APHC asks for the blood of the likes of you then they are entirely justified.

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rsridhar miaN:

uzzrey gunaah bud tur uz gunnah...

``where I am concerned, Hindutva goons get nothing except the noose or hard labor for life.`` -- not the muslims -- rsridhar miaN

rsridhar # #
After reading just a little of the Concerned Citizen`s Panel Report on the post-Godhra riots, where I am concerned, Hindutva goons get nothing except the noose or hard labor for life.

re:#255 by AmericanExpress
I have, in my earlier post, alluded to a research study that shows riots do not happen when the 2 communities forge a close relationship at work place. No political party can succeed in creating riots if the 2 communities have already forged a close nexus.
Hindus in India are by and large peace loving. Riots like Gujarat have happened since 1947. What makes Gujarat different is that, for the first time, a fundamental ideology has been used crudely and openly to garner votes.
You depict the same mentality as the muslims in India when you say this is muslim vs hindu equation. If it is so, there is not much hope for the muslims. The debate ranging among the hindu community is : what is the real meaning of secularism? BJP has given its own meaning and calls secularism of Congress, practised so far, as pseudo-secularism. Increasing number of hindus are now taking the BJP view. Congress, which had been a safe haven for minorities since independence, has failed today. The question to ask is: why is this happening? Has all this something to do with the general image of muslims the world over? Why are increasing number of average, peaceloving hindus hating muslims?

Instead of saying what i have said, i will paste Dr Rafiq Zakaria`s views from his book ``Communal Rage in Secular India (Popular Prakashan, Mumbai)`` which i read in Arvind Lavakare`s column in Rediff(url: http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/17arvind.htm).
His views on ``what the Indian muslims must do`` are as follows:
Beginning of quote:

1. ``Muslims must try and become an integral part of the mainstream... they must whole-heartedly co-operate in enriching composite nationalism which continues to be our pride... they must get out of their ghetto mentality, break the barriers of alienation and generate a harmonious environment.``

2. ``They should do some introspection and ask whether they have genuinely tried to contribute to the strengthening of Hindu-Muslim relations since Partition. The answer will be no.``

3. ``Indian Muslims must open their eyes to the ground reality that an increasing number of Hindus have begun to hate them... This is not confined to a small section; it has infected the rich as much as the poor; men as much as women; the young as much as the old; even children are no longer free from it.``

4. ``This is the ugly reality that Muslims have to face in today`s India. They have to do their best to bring about a change in the hostile attitude of the communal Hindus towards them. This is as much in their interest as that of the nation. Muslims continue to live in a make-believe world of their own. Their leaders waste their energies in playing games, whipping up emotions, and bringing more trouble to the ordinary Muslims.`
`Their self-serving leaders, with utter disregard to the aftermath of Partition, remained oblivious to their miserable decline and continued to behave with incredible arrogance, exhibiting a sense of false bravado by their loud utterances; they take out protest marches at the slightest pretext, hold demonstrations, shout slogans, demand justice and fair play but all this never gives any relief to the community... They fail to understand that by voicing meaningless grievances, asking for unrealistic rights, wailing, fretting and fuming, the leaders may gain some publicity but the community loses a great deal. They quote the Constitution and demand the implementation of this provision or that, guaranteed to the minorities but none of it gives Muslims the required protection; even democracy is ranged heavily against them because under it numbers count.``

5. ``Have these leaders and their hold on different sections of Muslims ever been tested? Have their credentials been verified? Their uncompromising and rigid attitude on every occasion has only weakened Hindu-Muslim relations further.
Instead of coming out openly against Pakistan and taking a strong stand against the jihadis, these so-called guardians of Indian Muslims spend most of their time in running their own political shops to buttress their communal leadership.
None of these leaders visit villages so they are unaware of the fallout of their actions on the poor and hapless who live in the remote parts of the country.``

6. ``Indian Muslims must now see the light of day and move in a different direction which will take them forward and not backward. They must discard their worn-out prejudices and outmoded habits and adjust themselves to the requirements of the changing times. They must give up asking for doles which will only cripple them. In order to survive, they must learn to stand on their own feet. For the fact is that they have no true friends; many of those who show them sympathy or consideration are not sincere. They do so only to obtain some electoral gain. This has been proved time and time again.``

7. ``Muslims rely on India`s commitment to secularism, but it has not proved to be of much help. Nor have Muslims of other countries ever come to their rescue.``

8. ``To succeed, Indian Muslims must boldly come forward to undergo an all-round transformation in their style of functioning. If they neglect or fail to do so…they will be ruined.
They will succeed if parents shed their old habits, give up their outdated notions, and encourage and help their sons and daughters to get the best of education. Merit alone will give them reward; they must never seek patronage.``

9. ``Indian Muslims must disown the bigotism which has made Muslims pariahs everywhere. They must... give to the non-Muslims the assurance that their religion stands for `live and let live.` The orthodox clerics who shut themselves from the world must not be allowed to lock the Muslims.`
`They must, without compromising the Quranic injunctions, agree to the introduction of certain much-needed, essential changes in their Personal Law, particularly the enactment of monogamy. There is, in fact, enough scope under the Shariah to amend the laws relating to marriage, divorce, dower and even maintenance... .Ijtihad, (independent thinking) which was freely used by the classical jurists in the past, needs to be exercised by the present generation much more today.``

10. ``The issue of Babri Masjid must be amicably resolved; instead of talking it over with responsible elements among the Hindus, confrontation was adopted to press the point. This gave rise to more hatred against the Muslims. ... What have the Muslim leaders really gained by mounting agitation after agitation?
The controversy on the singing of Vande mataram by Muslims is also meaningless. It was sung by all Muslim leaders, belonging to the Congress, during the freedom struggle... Those Muslims who do not want to sing it, may not but they must stand up when it is sung as a mark of respect to an anthem which has a hoary past and is declared as a national song in the Constitution. Why add hurt to an already worsening inter-communal relationship?``

11. ``Hindus are piqued by the fact that Muslims are multiplying fast, much more than Hindus. The Census figures, decade after decade, confirm it... communal Hindus are, by and large, convinced that polygamy results in an increased rate of growth of people. It is, therefore, not in the interest of Indian Muslims to persist with it... Then there is the question of family planning, on which much of our progress depends; it cannot be denied that Muslims have not taken to it as seriously as the Hindus; this has to be corrected... .There is no truth in the allegation that Islam prohibits family planning.``

12. ``There must be a real awareness among Indian Muslims that they have to gird up their loins and prepare for reconciliation with Hindus on the basis that each respects the religious and cultural conventions, traditions and sentiments of the other.``
End of quote.

All that is pretty soul searching, isn`t it? When i see Shahi Imam addressing a huge gathering and preaching hatred, i get the feeling that muslims, instead of forging ties with the majority, are heading for a confrontation with them.
Sridhar

re:#245 by sadna
Sadna,
I agree with the spirit of your letter. Yes, the fundamentalists need to be crushed. But, how do you crush them when they are gathering in numbers every day? Their new slogan is terrorism. Very crudely, Modi sought to equate terrorism with Musharraf and by implication, all muslims in the subcontinent. When day in and day out common man sees pictures of terrorism on TV, Modi`s task becomes all the more easier. How does one confront such a man?
You have to bring him to a different plane where he is ineffective. Whatever ways are available to strengthen secularism should be tried.
Giving up claim of Babri masjid by muslims will not embolden fundamentalists. It will throw them completely off the track. The fund of good will that will pour out will immensely benefit muslims and secularism. In military parlance, this is a kind of ``tactical retreat``.
Having said all that, i do not for a moment, think this is going to happen. Babri masjid is an emotional issue with muslims and they are not going to give it up. The big question is: are they serving any good cause by just prolonging a fight that has no end in sight? I still think my idea is better.
Sridhar

re:#246 by ferozk
I do not think all this in terms of muslims versus hindus. This is secularism vs fundamentalism. Muslims are not fighting hindus. Their fight is against some fundamentalist hindus. There is a huge difference between the two.
India is not a Nazi country tho` we have to tolerate nazi- like characters like Modi. Muslims in India are not facing a holocaust. The last time i checked, they still have all their fundamental rights intact. How they exercise these rights will determine their future and the future of secular India. My contention is, instead of making it into a hindu vs muslim thing, muslims in India should reach out to secular hindus, christians, sikhs, etc and confront this new monster with all strength.
Sridhar

re:#244 by nasah
BJP has milked the Babri Masjid issue to the last drop. There is nothing in it for BJP anymore, politically speaking. That is why, Babri masjid was a non-issue during Gujarat elections. BJP has found a better and more potent (and by implication, a more fundamentalist) slogan viz terrorism. It is equating Islam and muslims with terrorism, all in one sweep.
Whereas common man is unaware of the political brinkmanship at the highest level (note how, after condemning Modi, Vajpayee attended his swearing in ceremony), he is easily swayed by communal rhetoric.
Babri Masjid is not functioning as a masjid anymore. No namaaz has been held there for quite sometime. The matter is with court but court is unlikely to give a clearcut verdict in favor of muslims. It is hard for any court to decide on such matters. At best, the decision will be a compromise, leaving both sides unhappy.
This was the reason why i said it would be a good idea if muslims can give up their claim on the mosque. A fund of goodwill that will come out of this single decision will help the cause of secularism much more than anything else i can think of.
Sridhar

http://www.flonnet.com/fl1926/stories/20030103004811600.htm
If we still condone Modi and VHP after reading this, then we are not human.

The BJP/VHP etc are really very clever. If they want to only unite all Hindus, across caste barriers, I would not mind. But their campaign is against Muslims. What Indian Muslims need is their own Sangh Parivar that has grassroots organisation and committed cadres, that will work for their welfare and mobilize them peacefully. No amount of whining or becoming a votebank for the Congress or Mayawati or Mulayam will work.

``It will be a huge loss to India, Hindus and Hinduism if Indians, Muslims and Hindus agree to any settlement which gives VHP goons and their violent extortionist tactics an legitimacy(over the state) as representatives of Hindus, legitimacy which I as a Hindu have certainly not granted them.``(sadna)

Bless u betee -- jeetee raho!

Ref rsaxena #197

[...it`s about time...one of the pigs is quite funny...after the death sentence was announced, he said ``If asking for liberation for Kashmir is terrorism, then I`m a terrorist.``....boohoo, someone cry him a river...

...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

{Three Sentenced to Die for Indian Parliament Raid

NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- Three Indian men were sentenced to death Wednesday for their role in a deadly attack on Parliament that brought India to the brink of war with Pakistan.} ]

The Anti-Hindu published an editorial deploring the death sentence, completely forgetting the fact that the last time we kept people in prison as opposed to sending them to their 72 houris, we had a plane hijacked and a passenger killed and several million dollars ransom paid.

It is time to kidnap that kokscuker N. Ram and hold him hostage till the guys who conspired to shoot up the Parliament are released. If the latter doesn`t happen, my suggestion would be the swift sword of death for N. Ram.

``That is the beauty of facism and facists that they blame the victim for being victimized and ask the minority to make the majority feel protected! A pure Orwellian delight!`` (ferozk)

most aptly put --- feroz miaN

rsridhar #240
Yielding to VHP mob violence on ANY issue is like yielding to jihadis in Kashmir, a lose-lose proposition which solves nothing and only invites future grief.

Yielding to jihadis in Kashmir for example, would grant violent Islamism legitimacy as representative of Muslims aspirations, it would grant legitimacy to the use of indicriminate hate and violence, it wouldnot put an end anything, rather it would set the the stage for much worse to come from adversaries we ourselves would have strengthened. Ms. Gandhi`s wanting to save Bhutto and his country a shred of honor and dignity in 1971 is a good example of which has incurred a running cost of many Indian lives and solved nothing.

Similarly the goons of Hindutva organisations cannot be given legitimacy, they need to be crushed or moderated. They donot talk only of Ayodhya, they talk of other places too, 20,000 is the number I think. They `reclaimed` a number of places in Gujarat during the riots and for example yesterday they tried to create a fuss at Qutb Minar.

It will be a huge loss to India, Hindus and Hinduism if Indians, Muslims and Hindus agree to any settlement which gives VHP goons and their violent extortionist tactics an legitimacy(over the state) as representatives of Hindus, legitimacy which I as a Hindu have certainly not granted them. It will put Hindus and Muslims at further risk from a strengthened Hindutva movement. VHP goons represent only VHP as an organisation which owns land around the disputed site and they have no right to claim more than that. We have to wrest Hindu causes from the VHP not yield to them simply because they are willing to kill large numbers of people.

As for Modi, he is reported to have a very dictatorial style of functioning, it will be interesting to see how he manages to keep 126 MLAs happy for 5 years. As for pogroms, well in Kerala and WB CPM has held on to its vote base for many years by use of very similar tactics of grassroots intimidation, also there are Naxalite armed groups operating in a number of areas, N Ram runs a whole national newspaper sympathetic to the Chinese cause :) and we are not rushing to fly the red flag on Red Fort.

Indians must not lose nerve. We have to outlast these crises by imposing moderation on career extremists on either side. Meanwhile we must aim to create a split in the BJP, thats what I am thinking.

Re: Nasah ## 244

My friend, welcome to the club!

That is the beauty of facism and facists that they blame the victim for being victimized and ask the minority to make the majority feel protected! A pure Orwellian delight!

Re: rsridhar

I have a few questions for you.

Had the European Jewery agreed to the terms of the Nazis and perpetuated the Holocaust on themselves, would they have earned the good will of Herr Hitler?

Had the East Pakistanis accepted their malfeased treatment at the hands of West Pakistanis, would they have earned the good will of the West Pakistanis?

Had the Kurds allowed Saddam Hussein to continually use posion gas on them, would they have earned the good will of Saddam?

Rsridhar, today it is the Muslims and you can rationalize your choice and; tomorrow it could be the Christians and you could rationalize your choice and then, the day after it, it could be the Dalits. You can rationalize your arguments and your choices, but did you ever wonder that one day it could be you and some one else might justify your loss of freedom as a rational choice?

Would you feel the same way as you feel now?

Ciao

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rsridhar to sadna

“”One great step muslims in India can take is to let the majority community build a temple at Ayodhya. I was the one who said that nothing like this should ever be done as it would weaken secularism. But that was before Gujarat pogrom and elections. Right now, muslim community can win tremendous goodwill by sacrifycing its position on RJM/BM issue.””

You asked me if hindus should not also introspect. Sure they should. There is already a lot of introspecition going on. But, the die has been cast by Modi and his ilk and it is now left to muslims how they respond. (rsridhar)

Great ‘introspection’ rsridhar miaN –
I don`t know if sadna would -- but I agree with u wholeheartedly --

that goonda -- called Modi should definitely be rewarded with a Hindu Temple at the site of Babri Masjid -- especially -- AFTER -- “Gujarat pogrom and (that bigoted) election” -- --

surely the “die has been cast by Modi” -- “it is now left to Muslim” – to just prostrate themselves before “Modi and his ilk”-- and ask the permission -- to be used as -- Welcome MATS -- to clean their bloody Hindutva shoes -- any time of the day or night!

with secular friends like dr. rsridhar -- who needs those crummy Hindutva enemies -- anyway!!

anyway -- thanks for the GREAT advice – how thoughtful of u!

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re:#228 by sadna
I think you are twisting my argument. Jayalalitha did not indulge in a pogrom but Modi did. Latter has struck against the very foundation of the Indian state viz secularism, which, along with democracy and socialism, form the tripod on which India stands today.
Modi should never have been allowed (by Supreme Court) to contest elections. Having won the elections, he can now argue that people of his state like Hindutva and are against muslims. The queston is: how did the majority community in Gujarat come to this passe? There must have been years of indoctrinaton going on right from school level onwards.
This is not a Muslim Vs Hindu thing though Modi and his ilk would love to see it generate into that very equation. This is secularism vs fundamentalism. Muslims must join secular forces at every level and strengthen the hands of such forces. This is exactly what they need to introspect upon. How do they become more effective in changing their pro-fundamentalist image (Modi played on this skillfully; his calling Musharraf Mian Musharraf and saying he was against terrorist looked fine on print but he was equating Islam with terrorism in one sweep)?
One great step muslims in India can take is to let the majority community build a temple at Ayodhya. I was the one who said that nothing like this should ever be done as it would weaken secularism. But that was before Gujarat pogrom and elections. Right now, muslim community can win tremendous goodwill by sacrifycing its position on RJM/BM issue. This will also strengthen the hands of secular elements, who can take on BJP and allies with renewed vigor. Right now, secular forces are thoroughly demoralised and have no clue want went wrong and why did they lose.
India recently passed Right to Education bill. This is a milestone. All children between 4 and 15 yrs of age have a right to education. Will the muslim community take advantage of this by sending their children to govt schools since it is now GOI`s responsilbility to foot the bill? Here is a great chance for the poor in this community to come out of their self-imposed seclusion.
You asked me if hindus should not also introspect. Sure they should. There is already a lot of introspecition going on. But, the die has been cast by Modi and his ilk and it is now left to muslims how they respond.
Sridhar

studebaker #223
Christians are under attack by Parivar but we can resist them only by joining hands with the majority. Calling them Hindians doesnt help Christians. When India goes Pakistan`s way, I will give up hope in India.

Qusman1,

Au contraire Pakistan prides itself on the treatment of its minorities and many other things (not that the world at large buys it!) India has witnessed horrific communal violence perpetrated by intemperate groups of Muslims ofr most of the 20th century. Ambedkar (who is by no means communal) recounts every major occurence from 1920 to 1940 in his masterful exposition on the question of Pakistan (www.ambedkar.org/pakistan - chapter VII) including the infamous Moplah pogrom of 1922 in Kerala which left 1000s of Hindus dead. As for Gujarat itself does anyone know that over 7000 Hindus are in custody pending trial for their role in the riots vs. 3000 Muslims for a similar reason? Does anyone know that over 200 Hindus were killed in firings and police action used to quell the riots? This tendency to quote at length from the self-same news sources which in turn are based on 2nd and 3rd hand sources leads us nowhere.

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#222 by m_souza on December 19, 2002 3:48pm PT

Pakistan has never pretended to be secular.

Of the 1-2% or so hindus, haven`t heard of any hindus in the armed forces since the 1950s. A few hindus have gained prominent position within the establishment, like Justice Rana Bhagwan Das and the civil servant P.K.Shahani. BTW, Advani`s cousin still practices law in Karachi.

There`s a web site called Pakistani Hindu Patrika, which you may want to check out in this regard.

Overall, Pakistan has a dismal record on minorities.

However, it is just amazing to see riots in India, with thousands dying in just a few days. The accompanying denials and justifications are indications of hypocrisy.

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No outrage at the JI masterplan for Pakistan and the kafirs? Hypocrites.

rsridhar #227
``However, despite all the outcry by the English press, the common man in gujarat has supported Modi`s agenda``

You are mixing two issues here. The letter and spirit of the Constitution and electoral results. Electoral results donot nullify the violations of the letter and spirit of the Constitution.

Jayalalitha was elected Chief Minister, that doesnot mean she is no longer guilty of breaking the law through her corrupt practises and that the cases against her can be dismissed. Her being elected for instance didnot mean that it became OK to throw acid on Shashikala. Even if she had campaigned on the slogan of `break the law, take bribes` and won, it still doesnot win her absolution from breaking the law and taking bribes. Would you preach instropection about fighting crime after JJ beats Karunanidhi or when Mulayam Yadav wins in UP ?

Similarly, spreading hatred against any section of Indians is against electoral law and the letter and spirit of the Constitution. For a chief minister, a party and grassroots organisations to indulge in violence against and then base a campaign for electoral office on spreading fear and hatred of , a section of Indians, violates the letter and spirit of the Constitution. The fact that they won doesnot change that.

Those fighting on both sides of these elections are being projected to have a perception that the letter and spirit of the Constitution is an electoral liability. Just like spreading the perception after any vote in Tamil Nadu (or Uttar Pradesh) to give the impression that only law breakers, (and in UP murderers and kidnappers) can win elections.

Now either we work to dispel this perception or we don`t.

``muslims in India need to introspect``

Why only Muslims, why donot you mention Hindus as well? How would you as a Hindu like to be asked to instropect after 1000 innocent Hindus got killed and Hindu women and children got raped and killed?

re:#215 by sadna
I do not know where you got the idea that i favor the VHP/RSS ideology or that i support the violence unleashed by these fundamentalist elements. However, despite all the outcry by the English press, the common man in gujarat has supported Modi`s agenda. The question is : is this something unique about Gujarat or is this something we are going to see all over the country.
I was trying to make a point that muslims in India need to introspect. Why are they unable to integrate with the majority community?
In a research done by an American Indian researcher (Prof Varshney) for US Institute of Peace on riots in India, some findings were significant. He found that most riots happened in certain big cites, not necessarily the ones with a big muslim population. Where riots did not happen, he found that muslims and hindus seem to forge a close interaction thr` community work. Best insurance against riots was to forge a common bond by encouraging participation in community work, thereby establishing trust.
I quote here his findings (url: http://www.usip.org/oc/newsroom/es20021114.html
``In examining the relationships and social structures within multiethnic societies, Varshney argued that research has shown that the viability of intra- and interethnic social networks has played an important role in how susceptible the society has been to lethal communal riots. More specifically, Varshney pointed out that his research indicates that societies without strong interethnic social structures were more prone to ethnic violence.

Elaborating upon the importance of interethnic social structures in defusing ethnic tensions, Varshney noted that both formal organized associations (such as professional associations or unions) and informal or neighborhood-level associations (such as book or sports clubs) tend to be helpful. However, he stressed that his research has found that more formal organized social structures appear to be able to better withstand ethnic tensions. He also found that these types of organization not only provided for stronger personal and professional bonds between individuals in different ethnic groups, but also provided for important informal channels of interethnic communication.``

Muslims in India are not visible in areas other than arts (cinema, music etc). We do not find them interacting closely with other communites. While one simplistic answer would be: they are discriminated, the reality is they have shut themselves off. They do not send their children to public schools or govt run schools for fear of being hinduised. Thus, an opportunity for a muslim boy to interact and understand the majority community is lost right in the beginning. Madrassa education gives muslim children free education but not enough skills to compete with others. Result: muslims do not make it as doctors, engineers etc in big numbers. This results in alienating them and making them prey to the voices of hatred spewn forth by Syed Bukhari and his ilk.
If muslims want India to be secular, they have to help secular elements by giving up their self-imposed seclusion and joining the mainstream.
Sridhar

#220 by pennathur on December 19, 2002 10:40am PT
well said pennathur...we all know the facts of our history..how hindus were treated when pakistan was formed. Atrocious!!!!

If Pakistanis think they are less of religious fanatics than Indians or they think they are as much as or more secular than Indians....or if they are trying to proove that India pretends to be a secular country whilte it is not then I would love to see a Hindu Prime Minister in Paksitan.

#183 by rsaxena on December 17, 2002 8:34am PT
...why are so many pakistanis gloating over gujarat...it`s like a bunch of makkhis hovering over a dead bird....

& all this while a hyena licks her chops...

For those who wonder how ``educated`` Indians can support the VHP - have you wondered how ``educated`` people like Jinnah turned into blood-thirsty hounds on Direct Action Day when the streets of Bengal ran red with the blood of Hindus. Or the Partition when over a period of months the Hindu proportion of Pakistan declined from about 20% to 3% and to the now less than 1%. An oft repeated argument by India`s loony lefty and chamcha socialists (like Mani Shankar Iyer) is how a `fundamentalist` party like the BJP in India has a significant share of votes while fundamentalist parties in Pakistan have always polled insignificant numbers. The absurdity and ignorance behind this argument is appalling. Pakistan is an Islamic State founded for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent (never mind that ancestors of 140 million of them have turned their backs on it resolutely 55 years ago and have never regretted the decision). Islamic theocracy underlies the institutuinal framework of Pakistan. A non-Muslim can`t hold positions of power by law (or any other way either). The armed forces are wedded to the concept of jihad and gallantry awards are given away to soldiers ``who have despatched the kafir/infidel to jahannum`` and/or earned jannat for themselves. All this is just for starters. So in this situation the theocratic attitude is just one of degree. All parties in Pakistan are inherently theocratic and are (for the sake of argument) different shades of the BJP. So whicever party rules in Pakistan - the nation-state continues to be a theocratic one where non-Muslims are 2nd class citizens as per the traditional Islamic statecraft. In countries like Saudi Arabia the policy is followed to its extreme - in Pakistan it is followed in degrees. In Bangladesh it is fast developing into a mini-Saudi after the December 2001 pogrom against Hindus.

Ref ferozk #217

[Re: Harimau
Congrats! You have proved my point! I knew you would not disappoint me!]

I am glad to be of service and delighted that I met your expectations.

If you noticed, I didn`t say anything about ``the obnoxious behavior of some muslims in India``. That would be, in my opinion, a codeword.

On the other hand, I still haven`t gotten a name for The Muslim Girl or The Muslim Tea Vendor from our fearless journalist FarceAnna.

When I pointed out back in March that Narendra Modi was encouraging the anti-Muslim violence to stay in office, I was roundly condemned for SUPPORTING him. Now the same folks are blaming the poor benighted Hindoos for voting him back into power with an overwhelming majority. Some political analysis!

If you have the opportunity, visit the Jefferson Monument in Washington, DC. And read and remember his statement about maintaining eternal enmity over all forms of tyranny over Man`s MIND.

And by the way, Jinnah is GRRRRRREEEEEAT!

rsridhar #213

How about the obnoxious behaviour of the VHP and Bajrang Dal? First they demolish a mosque, then they indulge in riots then they threaten to `repeat` the Gujarat `formula` and make India a `Hindu rashtra`. Do you mean I can go and kill Togadia and other Hindus for being anti-India as long as I take an angry mob along?

Aren`t you repeating the very same arguments used to excuse the train burning?


ROmair
Let me quote for you Qazi Hussain of Jamaat-I-Islami, a person whose candidature for Prime Minister I seem to remember you and many Pakistanis frequently express support for:

``..an excerpt from an interview with Nawabzada Nabiullah Khan of the Jamaat-I-Islami of Pakistan, published in the February 1999 issue of the Jamhooria Islamia, a Baluchi magazine. Khan is quoting the views of Qazi Hussain Ahmed, head of the JI, which has captured a large number of seats in the Pakistani `elections` held recently. The entire interview, as a window into the mindset of an Islamist, is most instructive. And shows a remarkable world view.

What kind of government that JI envisages for Pakistan?

It will be the Sharia government. Sharia will be made our constitution so that the eminent Muslim scholars who had completed the schooling in madrassas will be appointed as the judges in every court. Qazi wanted to make the presidium on the same model as the Khalifa. Presently our ideas is that the entire top leadership of JI as well as all three military generals will be part of the presidium for which the Qazi will be the Kalifa.

We are keenly watching the progress of Taliban and learning from it. We are impressed with the Taliban on the women issue, minorities issue and law and order issue. Mullah Omar is a great friend of Qazi. Omar had visited his house many times. In the tentative talks, we had decided to form union of Pakistan and Afghanistan once the right conditions are set in Pakistan (ie the JI government in Pakistan). Our motto is Constant Jihad.

The idea is to keep Pakistan in a constant state of Jihad all the time. Qazi`s vision is that Pakistan will be centre of the new Islamic empire that stretches from Burma to Afghanistan and from Sri Lanka to Tajikistan including Kashmir. Towards that end, Jamaat will use all tactics from terrorism in the kafir- controlled areas to negotiations in the Muslim-controlled areas. Already the Jamaat leaders of Bangladesh and Jamaat leaders of India had accepted the primacy of Pakistani leadership in this regard...``

(end quote)


I wonder why Pakistanis donot come out in the streets against Qazi Hussain and JI/JUI/JUP? Instead they voted these folks into power in two provinces. Togadia can be accused to trying to overthrow the Indian Constitution and subvert the Indian state, what can Qazi Hussain be accused of when he supports jihad and an Islamic state?

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Re: Harimau

Congrats! You have proved my point! I knew you would not disappoint me!

Ciao

American Express 203:

You have a point. Godhra may have been enginnered, we just don`t know by who. It could well be Muslim organizations whose agenda is much bigger than Gujarat, as in the case of the temple attack that followed.

[ #207 by pennathur on December 18, 2002 10:32pm PT
Now that the Gujarat elections are over supervised by yet another tough as nails Election Commissioner (not some two-bit Brigadier or Lance Naik in khaki); the results must be expected. ]

Tough as nail EC, but according to Shenoy in following link he has unwitting helped in election result so completely in favour of Modi. And I agree with Shenoy. Well meaning but overzealous EC can influence elections wrong way.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/16flip.htm

-ew

re:#190 by sri
Your points about obnoxious behavior of some muslims in India is true. Such elements exist in every community.
Above all, it is the ``ghetto mentality`` displayed by ordinary muslims in India (and here i do not include many educated and successful muslims) that causes so much rift between the 2 communities. When muslims cheer Paki cricketers or bemoan the loss of prestige they once had (when muslims ruled hindus!), they are trying to recreate a past which they think was glorious and which they sorely miss. In this, muslims are different from hindus. Even a poor muslim somehow feels connected to the Mughal rulers in a spiritual and emotional sense. Such kinship is lacking among hindus.
When such ``ghetto mentality`` becomes a favourite past-time, it becomes a problem. That is where most Indian muslims (at least the ones in the north) stand. They are unwilling to integrate with the majority community for fear of losing their culture. Such fears are neither fact-founded nor reason-grounded. Muslims should emulate Parsees. Here is a community that has not only successfully integrated with the rest of India but also kept its distinct culture and religion alive. It has produced successful businessmen, scientists, artists the like of which few communities can boast of. Yet, this community is loved by all hindus. What is their secret? In an answer to this question lies, perhaps, the solution to the problems of muslim community in India.

Sridhar

Now that the Gujarat elections are over supervised by yet another tough as nails Election Commissioner (not some two-bit Brigadier or Lance Naik in khaki); the results must be expected. To talk of rigging is probably displaying lunacy and/or idiocy! The Congress and its chamchas (which includes all parties except the BJP and the leftists) have always followed a divide and rule policy wrt the Hindus. Since caste divisions have remained a serious problem within the Hindu fold. The BJP/RSS/VHP as well as the Shiv Sena have worked hard to dissolve caste divisions for years while the `secular` press from its airconditioned armchairs has hurled epithet after foul epithet and called them all sorts of names. The Sena in any case has always been a anti-upper caste party as Bal`s father Prabodhankar Thackeray was anti-brahmin much in the same way as the early Justice Party stalwarts of Tamil Nadu; and a mentor of the Raja of Kolhapur who introduced reservations in his State in the 20s. The BJP/RSS/VHP have long ago abandoned the upper caste anchors and are today the most egalitarian outfits in India. This it has done with a vengeance in order to draw the widest possible crowd into its folds. In UP the one time BJP stalwart Kalraj Mishra a brahmin gave way to Kalyan Singh a Lodh (same as Uma Bharati) who in turn when he rebelled was thrown out into the wilderness and replaced by the fiery Vinay Katiyar. The way the party has allied with Mayawati of the BSP and forged a successful alliance with the Dalits has completely ruffed Mulayam Singh from without and within. In Gujarat the party has made deep inroads among the weaker sections of society and several Dalits and `tribals` today occupy positions of power in the party. The violence in Dangs in 1998 actually began with an aggressive campaign by Christian groups to oust the VHP from the district. A group of miscreants ran amok and defiled a Hanuman shrine. A newly converted Christian whose family owned that land with this shrine then ``gave away`` the temple to his Church who then systematically pulled down the temple. This naturally sparked violence and the usual retribution. The Gujarat Samachar carried reports of these incidents for over six months and attempts of the district administration to bring peace. The English press got into the act very late and promptly manufactured the ``crisis and riot``. The incidents are well documented. Instead of accepting the gradual failure of its divide and rule policy the Congress and to a large extent the `secular press` keeps inventing these demons of `majoritarianism` and ``Hindutvaisation`` and other such claptrap. While an integration of Hindu society isn`t going to happen overnight - it will slowly but surely. There are big hurdles to be crossed and the progress is there for everyone to see. Musharaff by rubbishing the Gujarati in the UN touched a raw nerve. The Guju may be a crass business-minded sharp who isn`t bothered about things like pride etc. and only wants to make a fast buck. That could well be wrong. This election has shown up the futility if trying to play with Hindu sentiments.

Following is an interesting article, quoted in the Pakistan Daily Times, from the Indian Hindu newspaper:

From the statements of the VHP (sister wing of BJP - under the parentage of RSS) leader, it seems the RSS/VHP/BJP want the following:

1. ``The Muslims here will enjoy the same place or status as Hindus enjoy in Pakistan, maybe even slightly better status``

While the status of Hindus in Pakistan isn`t great, it is better than the status of Muslims in Gujrat. So I don`t know if the VHP leader wants to improve the status of Indian Muslims or destroy it.

2. ``as for Pakistan, the VHP was in favour of “dismembering” it,``

This is now impossible for India to do, in a nuclear scenario. The recent retreat, after piling up of forces, by India proves this. The only thing that can disintegrate Pakistan are domestic issues. I think the chance of India disintegrating it, without being destroyed itself, are next to none.

3. “All Hindutva opponents will get the death sentence and we will leave it to the people to carry this out,” he said.

This is scary, since I am an opponent of Hinduvta also. How exactly will the VHP carry it out?

4. ``Hindutva agenda — Ram temple at Ayodhya, anti-conversion law throughout the country, a common civil code, abrogation of Article 370 of the Constitution which gives a special status to Jammu and Kashmir, deportation of all Bangladeshi intruders and a statute for cow protection.``

The first and fourth will lead to a lot more violence. They have already lead to a lot of violence.

5. ``They had described the Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, as ‘khalnayak’ (villain) but the people saw him as a hero. ``

This is actually true. Modi has emerged as a people`s hero in Gujrat. He and his party kicked butt in the recent elections.

I am truly amazed at how otherwise reasonable Indians can support the RSS/VHP/BJP trioka (the three are one and the same thing). People keep saying, on this site, that the BJP is an extremist fringe element. They are in a state of denial, because it isn`t. It is the most popular party in India, i.e. more Indians like it, than any other group. What surprises me is that there are super-tech well educated Indian entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley who support it, and even send money to the BJP. There are Indian lawyers, engineers, doctors etc. who support it. I believe the actor Shatru Sinha holds a very senior position in it. Vinod Khanna is a senior member. I think (not sure) that Hema Malani is a member also. If the artists of a country start supporting an extremist party, than it is a true indication that the party is fully in the mainstream.

So I would like to ask all our Indian friends: What the hell is going on? Other than Arundhati Roy, I haven`t seen too many Indians come out on the streets, against the BJP. I get the feeling that if the BJP were to make India grow economically, most of the anti-BJP Indians would start tolerating it also.

How can a country like India, with 24 million Christians and 140 million Muslims (too small a number to have huge political clout, but too large a number to be easily suppressed) spread out all over the country, not have its social fabric ripped apart, if the BJP keeps going on for another decade or two.

Maybe, the bandwidth of our Indian friends would be better spent if they targeted all their abuse towards what the BJP is doing to India than what Pakistan is doing to India. Since Pakistan is too small to do much to India, but the BJP is going to put India into a civil war.

``Hindutva opponents to get death: VHP

By Neena Vyas

NEW DELHI: The Vishwa Hindu Parishad has warned of a “storm ahead which was not going to be limited to Gujarat” and indicated clearly that its next target would be five States — Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Delhi — where it is gearing up to spread the “Hindutva” ideology.

Praveen Togadia, VHP secretary-general, told the press here this evening what in his view constituted the important ingredients of Hindutva. “The Muslims here will enjoy the same place or status as Hindus enjoy in Pakistan, maybe even slightly better status,” he said. And as for Pakistan, the VHP was in favour of “dismembering” it, reminding everyone that “fundamentalism and extremism cannot be finished till Pakistan is dismembered.”

Muslims alone were not the target of his ire. All those who opposed Hindutva, and this certainly included secularists, would get the “death sentence” he declared. But the VHP would not have to carry out the sentence, the people would. “All Hindutva opponents will get the death sentence and we will leave it to the people to carry this out,” he said.

“Abhimanyu is not yet dead”, Mr. Togadia said. “The Mahabharat will be fought in Delhi”, he said perhaps talking about the Lok Sabha elections due in 2004.

He spelt out the Hindutva agenda — Ram temple at Ayodhya, anti-conversion law throughout the country, a common civil code, abrogation of Article 370 of the Constitution which gives a special status to Jammu and Kashmir, deportation of all Bangladeshi intruders and a statute for cow protection. It was not a coincidence that all of this is part of the well-known and declared agenda of the RSS as well as the BJP. In fact, Mr. Togadia patted the BJP. “In Gujarat, the BJP has come back to its own agenda, the Gujarat election has shown the right direction to the BJP.”

Prior to 1989, the BJP itself was a “political untouchable,” but that was not the case now, the coalition National Democratic Alliance Government was proof of this. However, even after the NDA took birth the BJP’s Hindutva agenda remained “untouchable”. Mr. Togadia and the VHP would set that right. It had already been set right in Gujarat where “our Hindutva agenda has become touchable (acceptable),” he argued.

Gujarat had, in fact, “finished the credibility of the secularists”. They had described the Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, as ‘khalnayak’ (villain) but the people saw him as a hero. Those who had said that the VHP belonged to the ‘lunatic fringe’ were wrong. “I have moved centre-stage, and they (secularists) have become the impotent fringe.”

He had addressed 60 meetings during the election campaign, and he need not remind Mr. Modi what the VHP expected of him. “He knows it well, he will not forget.” —The Hindu (www.dailytimes.com.pk)

Ref Urstruly #149

[The election of Hindu religious nuts can either be wrong or it can be right.....it can`t be right and wrong at the same time. So if hindus support the election of their government they should do so without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims and if they do not support the election of hindu religious nuts they should do it without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims.]

Okay, Jinnah is great!

[Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside.]

I guess the (Hindu) hooligans inside the train also managed to lock it from outside so that they cannot escape from the fire. All in the service of Lord Ram, I suppose. Or, do you think it is a Zionist conspiracy and the Jews managed to roast the Hindus alive and blamed it on the Muslims? By the way, do you believe that Mossad warned 4,000 Jews working at the World Trade Center to stay away from work on Sept 11, 2001?

By the way, the trains in India have bars on their windows so nobody can slip out of the train or enter it except through the doors.

[Let us also not forget the Muslim woman who was forced into the boggey by the hooligans, which actually prompted the stone throwing match.]

In case you haven`t read my posts, I have NOT forgotten the Muslim Girl, who has been nameless for the past 10 months now, daughter of the Muslim Tea Vendor at the Godhra train station, who is also nameless but has attained mythic status as simple the Muslim Tea Vendor. Did the Muslim Girl die in the fire? Was she miraculously rescued by either the crowd or by the Angel Gibreel? How come whether it is FarceAnna Versey or Chandrasekhar of the New York Times (a good Hindu name, in case you don`t know it) haven`t been able to identify either the Muslim Girl or the Muslim Tea Vendor? At least Chandrasekhar can claim that he went off to cover more important stories after printing hearsay but how about our Fearless Heroine FarceAnna? She lives a couple of hundred miles from Ahmedabad and Godhra, has no qualms about putting a bindi on her forehead to hide her Islamic identity, and could very well have investigated the identity of The Muslim Girl and The Muslim Tea Vendor.

And yes, Jinnah is great!

Ref irfan_h #150

[One of the most gruesome accounts was that about the death of Kausar Bano, a pregnant woman of Naroda Patiya. She was raped, tortured, her womb was slit open with a sword; her foetus was torn out, hacked to pieces and burnt alive with its mother]

Please write this up in either JAMA as a new medical fact or in some religious magazine as expounding the power of Allah.

The foetus survived after being torn out of the uterus and thus deprived of its supply of oxygen through the umbilical cord, survived the trauma of being hacked to pieces so that it can be burnt ALIVE?

Now you know why I don`t believe in newspaper reports.

Ref 12-Head #161

[Vote for bigotry
Arab News Editorial 16 December 2002

If the election that has just taken place in Gujarat, where the BJP has been re-elected by a landslide, had happened in Europe or elsewhere in the West, there would be an international outcry, with demands for a boycott of the country and that something be done about it.]

Wow! That explains why the Arabs don`t bother with elections! They want to avoid the international botcott that might arise out of their human rights practices.

ew #202
As far as I know there has been mention of only arrests in the Ehsan Jafri/Gulberg? society case. I have not seen any mention in the press of forensic investigation like in the Godhra case, nor attempts by the state to arrive at an authoritative description of the sequence of events, except during in the period just after the incident.

Unless the press pays attention, those who are really guilty will not be arrested, and those arrested will not be proceeded against with sufficient vigor much less convicted. Contrast this with the Godhra case which is already so advanced in court that you are able to quote testimony of witnesses. I don`t know if the difference is POTA process vs ordinary judicial process.

The judicial `enquiry` the Gujarat BJP mentions talks of only Godhra, not post-Godhra if I am not mistaken.

If an ordinary citizen like me is thoroughly outraged at this contrast, where the heck is the outrage in the so-called pseudo-secular media?

Another example of how justice will not be done is that though there have been arrest in connection with Naroda-Patia, one of the women named as participating/inciting the mobs in Naroda-Patia, a VHP activist has been elected MLA.

I agree all this pseudo-secular (from a `secular` point of view) handwaving by people like Arundhati Roy serves India ill. She(like many others) would rather take an opportunistic dig at her political opponents than uncover the truth.

stuka #204
From what little I know, Jaswant Singh`s fallout with RSS is more due to Reliance vs. anti-Reliance backroom politics of Delhi than any other issue. Influence of Reliance is one open-secret most people don`t seem acknowledge. Will Reliance allow Gujrat to go to the dogs when they have two huge investments there?
regards

[ #203 by AmericanExpress on December 18, 2002 1:52pm PT
...
About Arundhati Roy she was incorrect in Jaffris daughters murder b/c that was information given to her.She is not a reporter even though she can be called free lanced writer .She has feeds & incorrect feeds are expected to be challenged that doesnt make her LIAR or any other writer who is OPEN to correction as Arundhati proved her self to be.
The story of pregnant woman has been checked & found to becorrect.It may not be Jaffris daughter or not even Saeedas case but atleast one such case happened by my reading of various sources & can dig it up if you want . ]

Yes but her description of these crimes were as if she knew. She writes in the same language as if she is a serious journalist who has confidence that her facts are right. There is nothing wrong writing about events which you have learned second hand, but then you will write with caution and you will impress on the minds of reader that events being described are learnt second hand.

[Communal riots in India is not uncommon .Even if we forget Godhra ,Ahmedabad since 1967 is repeatedly in the news .The fact that even in 47 & up untill 67 Gujrat was one of the safest for muslims.Taking ascending militancy i would give more benefit of the doubt to Muslims of Gujrat than `Godhra caused Post Godhra Carnage .2000 people died `......Godhra just may have been engineered.If you think politicians would not risk 58 lives ,in the equation of loss & gain many a gujju easily would spend 58 for humungous profit of 2000! ]

Exactly like 9/11?

-ew

AlephNull:

I am aware of Jaswant Singh not being a member of the RSS. However, in terms of ideology, he is close to the RSS and in public life has defended them. His fallout with the RSS has been recent, that too because of Sudarshan`s inclination towards Swadeshi and Jaswant Singh`s preference for a free economy. This dichotomy towards economic policy has strained relationships between the BJP and the RSS since the 90s.

As far as Jaswant Singh`s worldview is concerned, he is closely aligned with the RSS. Your assertion that the RSS is suspicious of his commitment is absolutely correct, but compare him to the VHP leaders and you will see what I mean.

Stuka #200

{Currently, there is a power struggle going on in the BJP. Jaswant Singh, Advani, Vajpayee, ``the seniors`` all owe allegiance to the RSS. These are the ideology driven intellectuals. }

Stuka, Jaswant Singh may be something of an intellectual, but AFAIK he not only has never been an RSS member but has been in the bad books of the Nagpur crowd, to the extent that they nixed his name as Vajpayee`s choice for Finance Minister in 1998. Vajpayee himself has been under periodic attack from the Parivar`s right wing, presumably for being insufficiently committed to their cause. Not sure how this affects your claims of a current power struggle, though.

[ #179 by sadna on December 17, 2002 7:42am PT
...
In summary, inflammable liquid was spilled near seat 72(one end of the coach near one pair of open doors), the end adjoining S7. Thats where the fire began and spread towards the other end of the coach.

Since the fire started on the S7 side, the conclusion one can draw is that passengers couldnot use the doors on that side even though both the doors were open. On the opposite side(near S5) there was only one door open. Thats the side on which most passengers died. The coach was also heavily stoned from outside. ]

sadna, thanks for posting these links.

I am just copying last 2 paragraphs from last link:

``After inflammable material, most likely petrol, was poured inside the coach, the fire started raging from near seat number 72, which was nearest to the door. Not less than 60 litres of the inflammable material was poured into the coach, before setting it on fire.``

I am trying to do no analysis of these words. Just wanted record it on chowk pages because someone (I think urstruly) said no inflammable material was poured into S-6, which is obviously not true.

[The amount of detail about this incident which is available in the media is in stunning contrast to the total absence of detail available about the subsequent instances of Hindu mob violence, esp against Ehsan Jafri. Thats something which is totally beyond understanding and casts doubts on even the English language press.

It was one thing to keep mute to allow passions to die down and prevent further loss of life, but after these elections, such media silence will only become another reason for murderers and rapists to walk free. ]

I agree but you should not content just finding material on web to arrive your conclusion. There may be completely innocuous reason why detail is missing on web. Some of the Indian newspapers may not have storage resource to maintain archives online. If a story was published simultaneously in print also, it would be available from back issues office of the newspaper.

We certainly do not need journalists like Arundhati Roy. She gave an account of how Ehsan Jafri`s daughter was stripped and burnt alive and then later admitted that it was an error, because the daughter was not even in India! She did tender an apology but her credibility would become tarnished for ever. In another piece called ``Democracy`` she writes opening paragraph which follows:

``Last night a friend from Baroda called. Weeping. It took her fifteen minutes to tell me what the matter was. It wasn`t very complicated. Only that Sayeeda, a friend of hers, had been caught by a mob. Only that her stomach had been ripped open and stuffed with burning rags. Only that after she died, someone carved `OM` on her forehead.``

About this story I read somewhere that she wouldn`t provide information about Sayeeda to police even after requested. I can understand that she would not give her friend`s or any other source`s identity. But why not identity of person killed?

We do not need this type of journalists. We do not need cut-and-paste typist babus for journalists working from comfort of their air-conditioned offices. We need foot soldiers of journalism who go out and gather information from primary sources even at great risk of their lives.

-ew

Sadna:

Very much the latter interpretation. I would not be surprised to see the RSS go the way of the Hindu Mahasabha, the original ideological fountainhead of the ``Sangh.``

Veer Savarkar, Godse et al were all Hindu Mahasabha members, supported by Hegdewar`s RSS. Currently, there is a power struggle going on in the BJP. Jaswant Singh, Advani, Vajpayee, ``the seniors`` all owe allegiance to the RSS. These are the ideology driven intellectuals. The middle rung BJP, the prominent ones are Katiyar, Togadia etc. They owe their allegience to the VHP, not the RSS.

The Sangh Parivar may be one, but the center of power is shifting.

stuka #185
Could you elaborate? Since you bring it up, Narendra Modi a former RSS pracharak is so-called `OBC`. And how about all those brahmin Acharyas something-or-the-other roaming around as VHP members? And the fact that in central Gujarat, there was for the first time a heavy involvement of Dalits and Adivasis in the violence?

Unless you mean the caste terms `generically` and not literally , ie, the VHP is more profit-motive-oriented noncerebral Hindutva while the RSS is more ideologically-oriented intellectual Hindutva.

...it`s about time...one of the pigs is quite funny...after the death sentence was announced, he said ``If asking for liberation for Kashmir is terrorism, then I`m a terrorist.``....boohoo, someone cry him a river...

...the APHC dudes should be next...no country tolerates treason...i don`t know why india has for so long....

{Three Sentenced to Die for Indian Parliament Raid

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 6:28 a.m. ET

NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- Three Indian men were sentenced to death Wednesday for their role in a deadly attack on Parliament that brought India to the brink of war with Pakistan.}

American Express 154
``Would TRILLIUM tell them first not to talk of GODHRA .AND before causing carnage 2000 humans STOP BRIDEBURNING & WEEP FOR THEM FIRST.``

Amex -
You bet we have to talk about Godhra.
We`re in agreement more than you know, but there are a few statements to be made which remain unrecognized:

1. Ghodra is part of a two-headed and head-splitting cycle of violence shared by Pakistan and India.
2. Ghodra is another atrocity of an ongoing religious war shared by Pakistan and India.
3. Bride Burning is a cultural problem shared by Pakistan and India.
4. Pakistan and India share strongly patriarchal societies.
5. Opposing extremist religious elements are shared by Pakistan and India and passively supported by the majority.
6. India and Pakistan claim, theoretically, democratic principles and `protection` for religious minorities.
7. Pakistan and India both have political systems governed by religious majorities.

Yeah, Amex, we have to talk about a lot of things, but the focus here seems to be beating the same Dead Horses of Godhra, Kashmir, Babri Mashid, ad infinitum, ad nauseum... at least centuries of ammunition, and now, with nuclear weapons. Political leaders who`ve brazenly and irresponsibly ignored its people`s need for infrastructure and social justice, are now to be trusted with nuclear weapons by the rest of the world. Right....

Re: Godot # 188

Yes, I have been a member of this community since 1998 and what was once a noble idea is just another misguided dream.

Ciao

It is ridiculous how hindu apologists all over india are implying that muslim massacre in Gujarat was carried out by some miscreants who have no connection with hindus. The popular argument seems to be suggesting that the RSS gangs are only a tiny fraction of hindus and are outcasts therefore worthy of being ignored. It is time to have the spine to say the truth. The reality is that the hatred for muslims is so deeply entrenched in the hearts of hindus that it only needs a small trigger to unleash.
Hindus have seen again and again that whenever there is a cricket match between pakistan and India in Indore ( or wherever in India ) there is a huge muslim youth rooting for the paki team. They have seen year after year that they cannot take out Ganesh procession in some areas in their supposedly ``free`` country while the yearly moharram procession passes of peacefully. They have seen again and again that when hindu muslim riots break out it is almost always the knife wielding muslim youth that begins the bloody carnage on unsuspecting drivers and city bus passengers in muslim localities. They have seen that muslims ghettoize themselves in to exclusive muslim neighborhoods. They have seen that muslims always complain about unfair treatment at jobs while not making any real efforts towards education. They have seen that muslims multiply like crazy and muslim sons have a standard profession of either motor cycle mechanic or a cycle repairer or a butcher at a local meat shop. They have seen that muslims really don`t have any real emotional attachment to the land that they live in while unfailingly demanding all the privileges that the land has to offer. They have seen that muslims are demanding a seccession of kashmir based exclusively on the religion and nothing else. They have seen their sons body bags coming out of Kargil mountains and thousands of kashmiri hindus killed or evicted from their ancestoral land of kashmir. They have seen that nomatter how big the appeasement may be they have to always hear the complaints from muslims.

Things don`t happen in thin air. The hatred has been brewing in hindu hearts for decades and it has shown it`s ugly head in Gujarat.

Shah ( # 189 ) :


And smartie Chap Sri is a Jew ,Christian,British,American,Dalit ,OBC (who knows he may be ilegitimate too)Serbs ...what not to know that


A classic ``expected`` answer from a Muslim apologist. Instead of answering to the point, totally deflect the topic even to the extent of questioning my legitimacy/ existence. A totally cheapest of the cheap tactic. Dear friend, if you have any questions regarding my identity, you can look up my posts on Chowk for the past 3 or 4 years. I think you will find one of my posts seriously bashing brahmins. I am a dalit from india and proudly tell it to anybody who asks me about my roots.

PS: Does your thickhead ever wonder that why dalits had so much anger on muslims in Gujarat. Now don`t give me the standard bull that hindus tricked them in to it. That suggests that dalits are these dumb idiots who can`t figure out things for themselves ( and very racist argument too ).

Harpo,

Throw a few tomatoes and rotten eggs for me too will ya!

MBenzEnglish, I happened to check your profile and saw NOT to my surprise that out of 18 posts 5 of your posts were rejected. I started reading the 13 published, but this strange thing happened, my head started spinning and I got the headache of my life. Anyways bro whatever you`re smoking, share man!

Urstruly #163. I was debating whether or not to educate you on the origins of the 12 o` clock joke. It has something to do with Nadir Shah, Abdali...heroes of yours are they? Anyways, I decided NOT! No sense in debating with a moron.

Farzana,

Like always, you’ve stroked the flames. And you make it sound like the blaze will continue for a longer time.

Some Indians on this board need to seriously look at their outbursts toward you. When there is a tragedy it has to cause introspection at least. Not these outbursts of finger pointing at others. Even if others intentionally start to mock.

Even though Pakistan has had it’s share of sectarian crimes, what seems like happening in Gujrat sounds far worse. Maybe cause the scale is larger or that we’re actually seeing the fascist Hindus go for the kill and succeeding in the name of democracy. The fascists have the state machinery at their disposal to wreck havoc with lives. And no one can stop them. Not even the secular credentials of the state. BJP is a fascist fundo fuks paradise!


PS) Modi looks like the twin brother of a serial killer in Lahore who a couple of years ago was caught having kidnapped over 100 kids, sodomized them and then diluted them in acid. The resemblance between Modi and the serial killer is striking in more ways then one!

I feel sick to my stomach after reading these comments here. All of you are wondering that how all that is hapening could happen, but have you all seen onto yourselves. Have you ever wondered how much hate you guys and gals have toward each other. Shame on all of you...
You think you can ever solve this problem of hate killing by hate, no way. you are the problem yourself. I am a new comer to Chowk, but it seems like I wont be able to stay here longer, `cos you people make me sick and make me believe that there is no solution to the Pakistan India problem as long as a single Pakistani or Indian is alive.
I hope for a peaceful future, but realistically speaking I dont see one in near future...

Harpreet, #176

Yes, Harpreet, just like you, I will defend a friend what come may. Having said that, I will start condemning Urstruly for his off-the-cuff remarks the day hateful posts by Hindus are condemned at Chowk.

As you have noticed, thanks to mostly Hindu posters, Chowk has failed as a civil gathering. They have polluted an otherwise noble attempt to discuss serious South Asian issues. It is a sad commentary on the Hindu civilization, as represented at Chowk. Little these Hindus know that they represent the mindset of their civilization at Chowk. Gujrat has proven, and perhaps now entire India is going to prove (I`m hoping not), how ``civil`` the ancient ``civilization`` is. We at Chowk have already experienced that.

You are a very noble, decent, and a thoughtful person. I consider you a good friend. And I will defend you what come may. Here`s to your health.

Btw, that little story of yours is not offensive at all. It just goes to show how sick a person can get in his hate.


Feroz, #175

Dear friend,

Well said. However, no matter how ``fascinating`` the study of hate is, there is nothing fascinating about the damage it does to those who are victim of it.

As for Chowk becoming a place to post hate rather than using this site to bridge the gap and developing an understanding and friendship between two people...well, you have been around at Chowk long enough to have seen it all and know how great and noble an idea it was, which in fact worked quite wonderfully in the beginning...alas...


pmishra2, #174

And sort of like Abraham Lincoln providing Martin Luther King a certificate of freedom...

You get the idea. The one thing that is most amusing about you is the clarity and consistency of your silly statements.

Btw, I am totally flattered that you give so much weight to my certification. And you are right about me. I am no slouch.


Lucy, #171

Lucy dear (yes, you are a sweetheart even if you don`t like me...and no sarcasm intended),

In fact, yes I did register. Willfully and gladly, I made the INS completely and thoroughly investigate me even though I had been an American citizen for a very long time. I make sure that I tell everyone I come from Pakistan. In my very Waspish Company, I am probably the only Pakistani, and everyone who knows me knows that, including the CEO who asked me very curiously where I was from.

I am a model American citizen. I represent everything that is good about Muslims and about America. This country loves people like me. You know, a very wise man from deep American South who had traveled the world over and knew me quite well once told me, and I quote, ``I wish all immigrants to this country were like you.``

Hope this satisfies your query.

Love ya sweetie,

Godot

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I really don`t have time for a lengthy post so I will make this short. I would a like a honest answer from muslims here ... If hindus hate you, dalits hate you ( include me ), other backward castes ( OBCs ) hate you, sikhs hate you, Serbs hate you, Russians hate you, jews hate you, british hate you ( remember Oldham ? ), americans hate you then there may be something fundamentally wrong with the way muslims conduct themselves OR do you guys say that the fault lies with everyone else but muslims.

- thanks for thoughtful answers
Sri

None of you understand the true significance of the BJP victory in Gujarat. It is not the victory of the Hindu over the Muslim or the communal over the secular.

The election results signify the ascendancy of the Baniyas of the VHP over the Brahmins of the RSS.

...why are so many pakistanis gloating over gujarat...it`s like a bunch of makkhis hovering over a dead bird....

Shah

{{If Congress learns that one lesson, then something worthwhile will have come out of this appalling result. India needs an opposition party that works. At the moment it does not have one. Congress — in many people’s minds, still tainted by corruption and wedded to red tape and government control — is the nearest thing to an institutionalized political vacuum that India has ever seen. It has to start coming up with coherent ideas and a leader who is not just keeping the seat warm until her children are ready to take over. Otherwise, the BJP will continue in office no matter how much violence it stirs up}}

- That will never happen while the spawn of the devil Sonia Gandhi has her talons on the steering wheel, condemning India to a slow death all for the sake of keeping her wretched brood in power. For her and her cabal, India only exists to be ruled by their family for eternity. The Congress party is the natural home for the eunuchs of India, and they all surround and supplicate the Gandhi family like a bunch of slavering sycophantic leeches. Yes, thats right, after sixty years of independance, great writers, academics, great minds, nobel winning scientists, innovative business leaders, commited social activists, one billion people, the Congress party has been unable to unearth a single leader of vision or talent that is better suited for the job than a middle aged Italian neurotic and her rancid family.

Lets face facts, India is screwed, big time.

-h-

Re: Harpreet

The present situation in India can only be akin with the situation in Weimar Republic if the following question can be answered.

Who is supporting BJP/VHP/RSS in India? Which socio-economic group is funding their political platforms? Who benefits from their policies?

The Nazis rose to power, because there was a political vacuum in during the Weimar republic and the Nazis were supported by the educated German middle classes and the industrialists for their own ends, which was to lessen economic competion they were facing in Germany.

Re: Ghalib Zaman

Trully delighted to learn that you are still caught up in the meaningless arugments debating the virtues of an english or a urdu medium school.

Ciao

e_w#158
Here is a report on the forensic investigation on Godhra.
http://www.the-week.com/22jul07/cover.htm

Here is another which explains the doors
www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july06/n12.htm

(now available only on web cache).
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:vPIhwpVN2OMC:www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july06/n12.htm+Godhra+AND+train+AND+forensic+investigation&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

In summary, inflammable liquid was spilled near seat 72(one end of the coach near one pair of open doors), the end adjoining S7. Thats where the fire began and spread towards the other end of the coach.

Since the fire started on the S7 side, the conclusion one can draw is that passengers couldnot use the doors on that side even though both the doors were open. On the opposite side(near S5) there was only one door open. Thats the side on which most passengers died. The coach was also heavily stoned from outside.

The amount of detail about this incident which is available in the media is in stunning contrast to the total absence of detail available about the subsequent instances of Hindu mob violence, esp against Ehsan Jafri. Thats something which is totally beyond understanding and casts doubts on even the English language press.

It was one thing to keep mute to allow passions to die down and prevent further loss of life, but after these elections, such media silence will only become another reason for murderers and rapists to walk free.

like always farzana, my sympathies...you should stick to writing about silly asininesque things like loneliness..what losers u be..what incredible losers..and then these pigs have the audacity to tell me my country kills its minorities...the ulat pulat twists put on gujrat are wonderfully unbelievable..your state is part of the killings and these guys..your baniyas are justifying the killings of so many...so nicely..and theyre so convincing..its not india dear, its modi...india is secular...ohyeah baaaaby, secular....secular my ass.....buy yourself a one way tikkie to bangladesh or scotland behna..warna one of these days youll find yourself in a dark galli with an arjun_m or rsirdhar type smriking with a bazooka (Farzana is a Pakistani soul in an Indian body, what a poet he is) and then therell be no more disheartening feedback only lots of flavoured milk in jannat

pmishra2

{{Nasah, you have put it very well. These faults are within India and can only be cured by Indians. It is however difficult to put with ``experts`` from openly sectarian countries (with miniscule minorities) providing ``advice``.

Between Narendra Modi and the Indira/Rajiv/Sonia triad, it is hard to know who is more vile. The day when Ms. Sonia Gandhi and her descendants are out of politics will be a great one for India.}}

- Well said mate

-h-

Punjaban;

About two years ago there was a Pakistani man from Alum Rock in Birmingham who was convicted of male date rape. He would drop rohypnol into the drinks of men he met in pubs, take them home and sodomise them while they were asleep. I SWEAR THAT THIS IS A TRUE STORY. My friend is a lawyer who works for the Crown Prosecution Service and he had to sit through the video tapes that this pervert made. The judge put a reporting ban on the trial because he feared it would affect community relations. The point is that this guy (he called himself Cowboy) would only ever drug and bugger Hindu men and boys. He was obsessed with penetrating Hindus and would target only them. It was totally played down by the police and the media that there was a Hindu-hating homo rapist on the loose, because it might stir up trouble between the communities. The damn fool made videos of himself doing this. I am not joking this is a true story. So anyway, he is sitting in the nonce section of Winson Green prison at the moment, picking up soap for the big goray.

My point is that Cowboy and Urstruly are DEFINATELY intenet buddies, co-conspirators, onanistic pen-pals, they are probably even related to each other.

Urstruly, if you ever come to England to visit your boyfriend Cowboy in the slammer let me know I live about three miles from Winson Green prison. I want to throw some rotten apples and bricks at your faggot batty.

take care

-h-

(anyone offended by the above just chill out)

Godot

Much of what you say about the sickness and hysteria at the heart of Indian society is true. And I agree with you about some of the responses to Farzana`s articles. But I have to respectfully part company with you on one thing. Urstruly really is a bigot. He should be proud of it.

I respect your loyalty to a friend. I have racist acquaintances that when puch comes to shove I would defend. It is an admirable quality of yours.

-h-

Ref. Godot`s Post


Dear Godot, have you registered yet?


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/17/politics/17IMMI.html

Men From Muslim Nations Swamp Immigration Office

By JOHN M. BRODER with SUSAN SACHS

LOS ANGELES, Dec. 16 — Lines began forming before dawn today outside the downtown federal building here as hundreds of men from five Muslim countries showed up to register with immigration authorities under a sweeping national dragnet designed to identify potential terrorists.
-----
Today, the Justice Department added Armenia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to the program, with a reporting deadline of Feb. 21.
------

Cheers,

Lucy

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Although it is just a wishful thinking on my part but simplisistic interpretation of this election results, may all be proven wrong by precisely the same dynamic which made it happen. And that dynamic is yet to play out in the future.

If Modi has prime ministerial ambition then he will want himself to be seen as fair minded chief miniter. He may work to heal wounds. When muslims were being killed would it have helped if Modi had tried to suppress violence with iron hand? Probably not. Probably such attempts would have immediately been branded as somewhat Gandhivadi. And who knows if he had tried to be another Mahatma he would not have been assasinated.

But it is the muslims of India who would never forgive Modi especially muslims of Gujarat. It is the Hindus who constitute majority of constituencies of elected leaders. If Modi can show himself as somebody who wants to work for good governance and wants to hunt down Hindu murderers without going berserk then Hindus will probably would not mind doing business with Modi. After all as far as rest of India is concerned Hindus were really speaking never under attack by muslim militants. Hindus and Muslims in rest of India are not exactly friendly neighbours, but Hindus would be more concerned for their own safety. Failures of stemming militancy is seen more as failure of intelligence and police and corruption.

And hindus would be willing to do business with any one who would play fair with them. Could it happen that combined with a Modi`s career ambitions and BJP`s ambitions to hold on to power at centre at any cost, they may want to doctor their image as firm but fair rulers, and that itself feeds the dynamic which will prevent export of Gujarat experiment? I do not think it is possible to replicate Gujarat result if a recent local ``Godhra`` have not happened in rest of India. India is far too plural to have such replicatable experiments.

One journalist said three and a half factors favoured BJP in Gujarat. (see: http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/16flip.htm). I do not think Election Commisioner will do same mistake again. So the ``half`` factor which Shenoy talks about would be missing.

Muslim militancy is also substantially missing in rest of India. Media do not have a burning issue like they had in Gujarat. And lastly how Cong(I) handled the elections. Cong(I) has been same since ages. Same culture of wheeling and dealing. Their candidates are corrupt, mired in local muck. If it is true that they experimented with soft hindutva in Gujarat, then they know by now it does not work. Cong(I) has really lost touch with grass roots and has become a party of corrupt politicians. Much depends on how Cong(I) handles coming elections.

All in all there are hardly any state which is substantially like Gujarat. The fear of BJP exporting Gujarat experiment is baseless. Predicting coming elections on the basis of recent elections is foolish.

-ew

Godot is providing Urstruly a ``not a hater`` certificate! Heh, heh, most amusing....


Sort of like Jesse Helms providing Trent Lott a ``not a racist`` certificate...

or

Bal Thackery providing Narendra Modi a ``not a hindu extremist`` certificate

or

...

You get the idea. The one things that is most amusing about all of these fanatics is their clarity and consistency in supporting irrational and negative statements. Urstruly exemplifies it and godot is no slouch at it.

Re: Godot

Your post, on the nature of hate language on Chowk, was very instructive. You have really made some astute observations, but ask yourself why people hate? They hate, because hate easily dehumanizes the person and makes it easy to belittle his/her claims/arguments. It is much easier to hate someone if you demonize him/her and thus, justify your contempt for them and their arguments.

The process is simple. First demonize, which enables you to dehumanize them and that allows you to make them impersonal. Impersonalization is a balm, which rationalizes your hate and justifies your own irrationality.

As for Urstruly and his being sighted for victimization on Chowk, the answer is simple. We always hate the mirror for what it reflects and if the reflection is worthy of our praise, we credit ourselves and if it is not, we blame the poor quality of the mirror. Urstruly reflects a viewpoint, which is not appreciated and it much easier to hate him and lessen his point of view by dehumanizing him; it is just a case of killing the messenger, because of the message he conveys.

As to why Indian interactors and their hate is allowed to go unchecked, the answer is that it is very difficult to convince someone that they are wrong, when they do not wish to be convinced. The hate on Chowk is Pavolvian and it cannot be reasoned - the dog urinates on the water hydrant not because he wants to, but because he does not know any better.

This is true for Pakistanis and Indians on this site; one has a superiority complex and other has chip on their shoulder. Who is right and who is wrong? Does it really matter in the end? You shoot yourself in the head and I poison myself. The methodology might be different, but it is still suicide by any other name. Right? The same applies with hate; it makes no difference, because the end is the same - an absence of reason. Hate like homocide can be rationalized but it never justified and when you justify hate, you have commited an intellectual euthanasia.

Godot, yaar, hate is a facinating phenomena to study. Hate offers a sense of belonging and a sense of security from fear. What is one scared of? One is scared of what one beholds. Hate, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. Have you ever noticed that we despise the person who most remembles us and respect the person we wish to emulate. What does that say about Indians and Pakistanis? LOL

Remember, we hate and we despise that which reminds us of our true selves, because we constantly live in denial and anything, which undermies our world of denial, undermines our own sense of worth.

Ciao

This is the biggest disability - the inability to see anything, to ever acknowledge the truth.

September 11 - Jews did it. How could innocent students fly planes?

Bali - CIA did it. Why would anybody else do it?

Indian parliament - Indians did it. Why didn`t the building fall?

Christians killed in Pakistan - Christians bombed one another to give Muslims a bad name.

Always, everytime, only one reaction. Blindness. Followed by genocidal hate.

>No, you are not a hate-monger. I know that. The greatest proof of that >is you list among your favorite writers a Hindu: Krishan Chandar

A new definition of not being a hate monger.

Those trying to talk facts with urstruly must be a brave lot.

irfan_h #150
Thats indeed a horrible and unbearable picture of bestiality.

That report if I am not mistaken was tabled recently in the Parliament, and political leaders got away with simply spouting a lot of hot air. The timing of the release of the report was also misguided, instead of releasing it a few months ago, well in time for it to be publicised widely, it was released just before the elections. And I read somewhere that the polarization between the communities is so severe, most people refuse to believe these testimonies.

We have a long way to go, even to begin to accept, let along demand justice and heal the rifts. According to me waging this sort of war against ones fellow citizens is an clear act of sedition, as is condoning it. Its an act of sedition as well to propagate hatred against a community (and then call it an `experiment` to be repeated elsewhere).

Here is one small attempt to bridge the divide:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/mag/stories/2002121500620300.htm

blacks were treated like animals until the 1960`s. therefore americans should not have taken part in the liberation of europe until they had insured equality for all americans at home.

Urstruly (163),

No, you are not a hate-monger. I know that. The greatest proof of that is you list among your favorite writers a Hindu: Krishan Chandar. Anyone who does not see that is blind. I say screw those blind a-hole men and women.

I do stick my neck out for what is truth. And I greatly admire Farzana for her courage. Screw the ones who hate when she writes the truth. They are a bunch of a-holes who do not know any better. Let their country go to hell. Maybe that`s the vision thay have for their country: play holi with blood and be merry.

Urstruly - While you`re championing the cause of Muslim women, there
are many times more of our Muslim sisters dying at the hands of
Muslims. Here are a few. They`re usually tucked away in the back of The
Dawn and The News, usually three or four every night - and these are
the ones REPORTED. Read `em and weep.

151 by Urstruly on December 16, 2002 11:16am P
``This is our fault. This is because of our weekness that our Muslim
sisters were subject to this inhumanity. It is a shame that no one talks about 3000+ women who are still missing and presumably were sold to the brothels across india by hindu genocidal maniacs. We and only we bear the responsibility for their misery. We failed to protect them. How can we blame hindus; when we knew that they are destined to kill; they are determined to rape; they have no shame; they have no mercy for women, or children, or human beings, especially, if they are Muslims.``



Pakistan News Service

``In these cases, during police interrogation it was told by the
in-laws of the deceased that while the women were preparing meals,
they had caught fire from the burning stoves. But in due course the
secret of their having been burnt instead of being allowed talaq
(or divorce), came to light. In both cases, at the time of their

marriages, each of the brides had demanded a heavy mehr (or dowry) of about a hundred thousand Pakistani rupees from the groom. If the husbands divorced them,they would have to shell out the large amount as mehr. So they adopted the much cheaper way of getting rid of their wives in a short time. The large amounts of mehr are registered in the marriage papers (nikahnama).
Though discouraged, the frivolous divorce it certainly did,
but it encouraged bride-burning as a cheap alternative and the
inordinate mehr amounts proves a fatal practice for the women.
In fact talaq and multiple marriages do not restrict the
atrocities heaped upon the hapless women, but on the contrary,
aggravate the situation.``


The News - 10/21
On August 22, 2000, few prominent newspapers of the country reported
the news that a woman died from burns in a local hospital Lahore.
Kulsoom Bibi, 35, a resident of Sharifpura, Manawan, was busy cooking
when her clothes are reported to have caught fire. She sustained
critical burn wounds and was admitted to the hospital. As she died due
to burn injuries the hospital handed over her body without autopsy.
The LHRLA is also pursuing the case of Aisha who died on December 5,
2000, due to burn injuries. According to details, she was admitted to
the PNS Shifa in a critical condition on October 3, with 70 percent
burns, allegedly caused by her husband, Ataullah, who is now in police
custody. Another deplorable aspect of the story is that the accused
resided in the house of an Imam. The LHRLA believes that violence
against women is increasing day by day and is rarely brought to the
notice of the public or press unless the women die or suffer gruesome
injuries. ``It is very deplorable that hundreds of women die every year
by the hands of their husbands or in-laws and then it is claimed that
they died when their cooking stove burst.`` It is also noteworthy that
the cases of burning to death are rarely, if ever, investigated
meticulously by the police, and post-mortem examinations are hardly
ever performed, Bhatti said.

KARACHI: Young woman dies of burns

By Our Reporter
KARACHI, May 31: A young woman died of burns while two others suffered serious burn injuries in separate incidents and in various parts of the city, on Friday. Police said that Fahmeeda, aged 22, suffered burns
while working in the kitchen of her house in Quaidabad. Police said that the victim`s clothes caught fire while she was in the
kitchen. She was rushed to Civil Hospital where she was pronounceddead by the medico-legal officer.
In another incident, a housewife, Shamim, aged 35, suffered serious
burns in her house in Landhi. She was taken to Civil Hospital where she
was admitted for treatment. Her husband is being quetioned.
Hospital sources said that the victim suffered 96 per cent burns and
was in serious condition at the hospital`s burns ward. The police,
quoting family sources, said that the victim`s husband had allegedly
burnt her.

In a third incident, Kaniz Fatima, aged 37, suffered burn injuries in
her house in Nasir Colony, Korangi. The victim was shifted to Civil
Hospital where she was admitted for treatment. Police drew a blank
about the details of the incident.


ABBOTTABAD, March 26: One Safya Bibi of Bandi Sarara, Abbottabad, died of burns, which she suffered two days back in mysterious circumstances, in the Ayub Medical Complex here. ...

KARACHI: Young woman dies of burns
KARACHI, May 31: A young woman died of burns while two others suffered serious burn injuries in separate incidents and in various parts of the city, on Friday. Police said that Fahmeeda, aged 22, suffered burns
while working in the kitchen of her house in Quaidabad. ...

Dawn
DIES OF BURNS: A 19-year-old girl succumbed to her burn injuries in a
hospital on Saturday. She had suffered the burns on Nov 29. Reports
said that Mumtaz was cooking at her Korangi residence when her clothes
had caught fire. She had received severe burn injuries and was taken to
a hospital where she died on Saturday. The body was handed over to her relatives without postmortem.

DAWN - Lahore
Sajida Bibi died at the Mayo Hospital. She was brought to the hospital
four days ago with critical burns, the hospital staff said. Her husband
Basharat Masih told police that she committed suicide. Her family,
however, alleged that she was burnt by her husband over family
disputes.

Dawn
Rehana, 18-year-old daughter of Chand Babu, was received serious
injuries in an attempt at suicide in her Korangi residence. She was a
resident of house No 1659 in 51-C area. She sprinkled kerosene oil over
her body and set herself ablaze due to unknown reasons. As a result,
she received burns wounds over 89 per cent of her body. Her family
immediately rushed Rehana to the Civil Hospital. The police were
informed about the incident, however, the motive of the incident could
not be ascertained till late in the night.

Dawn
Sumaira (17) died in the Burns Ward of Civil Hospital. She had received
burns wounds while cooking at her Manzoor Colony residence, lying in
Mehmoodabad police limits, on November 19. She was rushed to the
hospital in a serious condition but lost the battle for life.

DAWN
Burns victims die: Two teen aged burns victims, including a girl died
at a hospital on Thusday. Shaista, an 18-year-old burns victim from
Korangi died at Civil Hospital. The sources at the hospital said that
the deceased was admitted after receiving burns wounds at her home on

March 4 last.
The News
Seventeen-year-old Nagina Bibi in Tarali Kalan near Islamabad, was
engaged by her father to her cousin but her brother wanted her to marry
his wife`s brother. After her brother saw her talk to the cousin chosen
by their father on the street, he and another brother on 14 April 1994
reportedly tied Nagina with a rope to a wooden post in their home,
sprinkled kerosene over her and set her on fire. Neighbours had her
admitted to a hospital with 75% burns, which the family claimed to be
due to a stove bursting. Nagina told doctors that her brother had set
her on fire because she had disobeyed him. The Progressive Women`s
Association investigated the case and had a case registered against the
brothers, both of whom were arrested. One of the brothers admitted that
he had burned Nagina with the help of his brother, because she had
taken the liberty to talk to her cousin on the street. Nagina died
after 23 painful days in hospital. It is not known at present if the
brothers` case has gone to court.

godot: # 157

Voh butoN ney daalay hain vasvasay
keh diloN sey khuf e khudaa gayaa.

Godot

I am not a hatemonger but thanks for sticking your neck out for me. The only person who needs our moral support is Farzana Versey, who once again has been muzzled by hindu fascists by threats of ``legal ramifications``. Please do not forget that this great woman lost her job for speaking out and standing up for truth and her hindu boss who fired her, was jumping like a monkey on a trampoline here at chowk and boasting his service to the country and religion. She is the one who is raising her voice of dissent in front of oppressors and genocidal maniacs without fear; doing the best of Jehad, living right inside the belly of the beast.

I do not hate hindus, I hate cowards, liars, goebles, killers and genocidal maniacs. Unfortunately, not only in this case they are hindus, but claim to be proud hindus. They are cowards because they are scared of 9% i.e. nine percent Muslims of Gujrat. God what pissants these %&^% are, they fear that 9% of minoriyty is going to take over their country. Jeez.

Punjaban

Once there was a sikh conference held to figure out after all what happens to sikhs at exactly 12 O` Clock noon. There was a heated discussion in the room when suddenly clock hit 12. As it happened all the sikhs climbed on the center table. The table could not bear their weight and collapsed under them. After few minutes when that ``heavy`` hour passed and they gathered their senses they postponed the meeting to the next day at 11:30 am.

Banjaara (160),

You are absolutely right. This is an absolute shame on Pakistan and the wrong must be corrected. I like to believe that us Pakistanis are much better in dealing with our problems, questioning everything under the sun. An open discussion about the wrongs done is a sign of a mature and an enlightened culture and society. However, you are shifting the focus of the present article in your post. The shame of Pakistan you point to should be a topic discussed at Chowk and brought out in open on another board (I do hope someone knowledgeable about what you write writes something about it, maybe you can help by writing an article.)

All flaws of Pakistan, no hold bar, should be discussed openly at Chowk, not with menace and hatred but seriously and scholarly. That is the only way to make Pakistan a better country.

However, this board is dealing with something completely different. It has nothing to do with Pakistan.

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urstruly#151

[This is our fault. This is because of our weekness that our Muslim sisters were subject to this inhumanity. It is a shame that no one talks about 3000+ women who are still missing and presumably were sold to the brothels across india by hindu genocidal maniacs. ]

Urstruly ji,
So you want to become the Mohammed Bin Qasim of 21st century? Do you realize how phony you sound with your crocodile tears for the muslims of India, especially when 260,000 Pakistanis ( officially referred to as Biharis)are languishing in Bangladesh since 1971. How come you never protest about the thousands of Bengladeshi women who are sold to the Pakistani brothels every year. How come you never speak about the
small children sold to the Gulf states for as little as Dirhams 10,000= How about the murder of the shia community and the Ahmedi community and the christians and the step-motherly treatment of the mohajirs and the treatment of the smaller provinces by the majority province. With so many problems at home, you are concerned with Kashmir and Gujarat and the Hindu.

Andaaz-e-bayaN gar che bahut shokh nahiN hai
shaayed ke utar jaay tere dil meiN meri baat

[ #149 by Urstruly on December 16, 2002 9:14am PT
...
Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside. ]

Can you post a link or the report?

I know at least one journalist who had reported on ongoing sessions of a Gujarat High Court judge which was looking into this affair. The journalist is Sheela Bhatt of rediff.com. What I remember is that jerry cans were carried to the coach and train was stopped and a person climbed by tearing up the protective clothe which cover between coach passage and entered the coach. I do not know what jerry cans are.

Urstruly, so much hatred is not good if it blinds you to even the process of discovery of truth. The aftermath was unacceptable. However main event is also not acceptable. Not for nothing Hindus feels under siege. Whipping up more hatred is not answer. Healing is the need of hour. Modi has said he wants to work for all Gujaratis including those who did not vote for BJP. He is suspect and probably guilty before trial.

But fact finding is only way. For example somebody mentioned Ehsan Jaffry. Ehsan Jaffry`s murder needs to be investigated. Witch hunting and short circuited investigations are not answer. Surmise, conjectures, theories are not answer.

-ew

[ #149 by Urstruly on December 16, 2002 9:14am PT
...
Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside. ]

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/22godhra.htm

cut and paste of only text follows:

----- begin of cut and paste from above URL -----

Youth`s testimony throws new light on Godhra attack
EXCLUSIVE!
Sheela Bhatt in Godhra
Giving a sensational new turn to the investigation of the Godhra massacre, a Hindu youth, who has admitted to having been a member, albeit unwilling, of the group that ferried inflammable material to the spot where the Sabarmati Express was stopped on the fateful morning of February 27, has given a blow-by-blow account of the events that set Gujarat ablaze.

The picture emerging from his statement suggests that the masterminds of the attack were not Congress politicians Mohammed Hussain Kalota and Bilal Haji, but local businessman Razak Kurkur (seen at right in an old picture from the police files) and his associate Salim Paanwala, who ran a paan shop at the Godhra railway station and provoked the mob to attack the train.

The boy, a tea vendor at Godhra station, who shall be identified only as Ajay, made his revelations in a statement before Judicial Magistrate, First Class, A R Patel of the Godhra railway court on July 29.

His eight-page statement has been recorded under section 164 of the Criminal Procedure Code at Anand, when the court was on tour, and, if it stands scrutiny in court, may finally lay the vexed Godhra case to rest. The statement is admissible as evidence because it was given voluntarily and recorded before a magistrate.

A source in Godhra said Ajay`s conscience had been hurting him, so he decided to speak out even though he got involved in the incident in a `spirit of community living.`

In his statement, the source said, Ajay not only narrated the chilling sequence of events that lead to the torching of the train`s compartment #S6, resulting in the death of 59 passengers, but also named all those involved in actually setting the bogie alight.

Till February 27, Ajay, who is aged 17 or 18, lived with his family in the heart of Signal Falia, the Muslim-dominated quarter near the Godhra railway station from where a frenzied crowd had rushed and attacked the compartment.

Many of the accused in the case are known to Ajay, having been his neighbours in Signal Falia or co-workers at the Godhra railway station.

According to the youth`s statement, he left his home in Signal Falia at 0700 IST on February 27 and went to his employer Mahboob Fofa`s house to collect a pot of tea. From there he headed for the railway station where a `deluxe` train soon arrived from Baroda.

A little later, the Sabarmati Express chugged in. Ajay could hear loud chants of ` Jai Sri Ram.`

A few minutes later, Ajay saw his employer Fofa and Mehboob Latika, another tea vendor, run towards the engine of the Sabarmati Express, screaming that another tea vendor, Siddique Bakkar by name, was being beaten by karsevaks.

Ajay was then outside compartment #S3. He too was stopped by some karsevaks and asked to chant `Jai Sri Ram.`

Ajay complied, but when the karsevaks asked Latika to chant the slogan, he refused. The angry karsevaks began manhandling him, but Latika managed to break free and run, shouted that people were being beaten up.

As the train began pulling out, someone pulled the emergency alarm chain. Ajay had by this time left the station and reached Rasid Raji`s shop in Signal Falia. He saw a dozen autorickshaws (three-wheeler vehicles) coming towards the slum colony from the station. Each autorickshaw was carrying four or five men who quickly alighted and began throwing stones at the train.

At this point, according to Ajay`s statement, a few of his acquaintances in Signal Falia, like Saukat Lalu, Irfan Bhobha and Rafique Bhatuk went behind a property owned by Kurkur, who also owns a guesthouse facing the station.

Saukat Lalu, also a tea vendor, asked Ajay to accompany him. Ajay says he did not know at that point what was being planned or what he was expected to do. He stood outside Kurkur`s house along with a few other tea vendors. After a few minutes Rafique Bhatuk came out with a can (called karbo in local parlance, which is used to store inflammable material) and gave it to Irfan Bhobha. ``Aa karbo rickshaw maa muki de [Keep this can in the rickshaw],`` the latter told Ajay.

The contents of the can smelt like kerosene, but out of fear, says Ajay, he obeyed. Nine other boys carrying similar cans, swords, and pipes went back to the station in autorickshaws, Ajay with them. The youth claims he accompanied them because he was forced to.

The group went behind a white cabin near the station, alighted, and rushed towards the train, which had been stopped some distance away from the platform. Saukat Lalu asked Ajay to go along with them. Another member of the group, Maheboob Chanda, snatched Ajay`s can of inflammable material.

Ajay, who has narrated all the events as he remembers them in chronological order, also named not just the arsonists but also all the members of the first group that began pelting stones on the train, the Godhra source said. His version matches that of some of the passengers on that train.

On page six of his statement, Ajay has described in detail how the boys in his group torched compartment #S6. According to him, they first tried to burn compartment #S2, but alert passengers inside foiled them.

They then went to compartment #S6 and slit open the vestibule between #S6 and #S7. Six boys, including Rafique Bhatur, Saukat Lalu, Irfan Bhobha, and Sheru, then boarded the compartment and splashed their inflammable material inside.

Ajay says he stood outside. When he saw a crowd beating up Rafique Bhatur, he ran from the place and went home, only to find a group of local Muslims trying to set it on fire. His neighbours prevented them, but Ajay and his family had to shift to his uncle`s house.

He claims he was threatened not to tell anyone what he had witnessed about the attack. He is now in hiding, fearing for his life.

----- end of cut and paste -----

-ew

Why the hell is Urstruly being singled-out as the Muslim hate-monger, while the Hindu hate-mongers at Chowk go scot-free? The hatred displayed by the Hindus at Chowk towards Muslims/Pakistan is a lot more lethal, venemous, and disturbing than Urstruly`s towards Hindus. Yet no one at Chowk questions the hatred posted by the Hindus, but everybody`s up Urstruly`s ass. It just reaffirms my thoughts that Pakistanis at Chowk are a lot more decent, tolerant, intropective, self-critical, and civilized lot than the people from the ancient ``civilization.`` Civilization my foot. These Hindu a-holes at Chowk and those who voted for Modi are stuck in the lower rung of evolutionary process of civilization.

Urstruly,

Give ity up, friend. You are pissing against the wind.

#144 by rsridhar on December 16, 2002 9:13am PT
“If Sonia Gandhi is our best bet, then God save India”

Sridhar…people really didn’t feel like voting for Sonia..so Congress should have had another party leader, someone who sounds more genuine and more Indian. And yet, inspite of everything..Modi is not the right one..even if Vajpayee is all right..

Anyway..time will tell…

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Urstruly, Get help, my God, I feel physically sick to listen to the venom you spit, and the hatred you feel. You unfortunately are the Muslim face the world media has been propagating, you are your own worst enemy!

don’t think pakis should be deriving satisfaction from the mess in gujrat. the election result will only strengthen the hands of those sections of paki society that are directly responsible for causing so much mayhem in pakistan. ptv news editors, mma campaign managers and hindu-hating elements in paki army are going turn this into another clash of civilizations and in response, they will promote an agenda that will lead to even more misery in the region.

the threat posed by genie unleashed over the last few years should be obvious by now to sane elements on both sides. hopefully, pressure can be put upon moderate elements in bjp and in paki army to work together to reach some sort of settlement.

Urstruly # 149 - this is the kind of genocidal hatred people are taught.

Irfan_h

This is our fault. This is because of our weekness that our Muslim sisters were subject to this inhumanity. It is a shame that no one talks about 3000+ women who are still missing and presumably were sold to the brothels across india by hindu genocidal maniacs. We and only we bear the responsibility for their misery. We failed to protect them. How can we blame hindus; when we knew that they are destined to kill; they are determined to rape; they have no shame; they have no mercy for women, or children, or human beings, especially, if they are Muslims. That is their religion; that was the wrath of Kaali; that was the fury of shiva. That was the Yudh; that was Mahabharat; and that was children of Ravna set on fire.

Mass rape and torture sponsored by India

uploaded 16 Dec 2002


New Delhi (IANS) -- A citizen`s tribunal that spoke to victims of the sectarian bloodshed in Gujarat has chronicled most brutal and inhuman torture of women, leaving survivors and their families emotionally scarred for life.

Before they were killed, the usual routine that they were made to go through by the killer mobs was rape, gang rape, mass rape, stripping, parading, insertion of objects in their body, molestation and torching.

``Rape was used as an instrument for subjugation and humiliation of a community,`` noted the tribunal headed by former Supreme Court judge V.R. Krishna Iyer and comprising former judges and activists.

The tribunal collected evidence from 16 Gujarat districts and spoke to hundreds of female victims.

The report said a chilling cover-up technique was destruction of the evidence by burning the victims.

``Barring a few, in most instances of sexual violence, female victims were stripped and paraded naked, gang-raped and quartered and burnt beyond recognition.``

Many of the 33,000-odd children forced to live in refugee camps throughout Gujarat were mute witnesses to sexual crimes against their womenfolk - mothers, sisters, aunts and even grandmothers.

In Naroda Patiya, one of the worst affected villages in the violence, the tribunal records that mobs even raped girls as young as 3 or 11 years. Babies were cut up and flung into pyres.

Young girls were made to remove their clothes in front of 1,000-2,000 strong mobs that humiliated them. Eight to 10 men raped them. After this, attackers inserted sharp swords, knives or other objects into their bodies and tortured them before burning them alive.

When women begged and pleaded with police personnel to save them, they were told that the police had orders to ``do nothing for 24 hours in Naroda``.

Forty-six women were among the 96 bodies that were buried in a mass grave after the village had been ravaged by the mobs.

A rape victim from the Godhra relief camp told the tribunal that she was ``stripped, gang-raped, her baby was killed in front of her, she was beaten up, burnt and left for dead.``

Women were also attacked with acid, beaten up with rods, their vagina sliced, and iron rods pushed inside. Their bellies would be cut open and objects inserted.

A 13-year-old girl had a rod pushed into her stomach. A mother recounted that her three-year-old baby was raped and killed.

One of the most gruesome accounts was that about the death of Kausar Bano, a pregnant woman of Naroda Patiya. She was raped, tortured, her womb was slit open with a sword; her foetus was torn out, hacked to pieces and burnt alive with its mother.

Women from Shah Alam and Danilimda villages went to the police to seek protection for their families. The police ignored them. But when they got persistent, the police came with reinforcements and rained batons and rifle butts on them.

In some villages, where the police allegedly colluded with the mobs and facilitated their entry into Muslim lanes and houses, women suffered quite another kind of humiliation.

When the women tried to shield their houses from the police and the mobs, the police pulled down their trousers and shouted abuse at the women, the tribunal was told by various victims.

The tribunal was told by a woman of Vadodara that she was beaten so brutally by the police that she gave premature birth and had blood oozing out of one breast while feeding her baby with the other.

In Tarsali village, a woman was made to watch as her son was dragged down from a tree that he had climbed in desperation, his fingers cut off and the rest of his body dismembered. That was the last picture in her mind before she died.

The report notes: ``In Gujarat, the degree of violence and sexual crimes against women reached unprecedented levels. That sexual crimes against Muslim women took place on such a large scale in post-independent, democratic and secular India is shocking in itself.``

Source: IANS

WISE CROW


Ferozk

what you are chracterizing as hate is actually moral bankruptcy and cowardice. The election of Hindu religious nuts can either be wrong or it can be right.....it can`t be right and wrong at the same time. So if hindus support the election of their government they should do so without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims and if they do not support the election of hindu religious nuts they should do it without maligning Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, or Muslims. Either you support them or you dont. But the way they have maligned Paksitan, Quaid-e-Azam, and Muslims shows that they support the election of the hindu religious nuts from the depths of their hearts but they also want to be called ``modern``, ``open-minded``, ``secular``, and that bitch...what is it called...hunh ...``democratic``. So they are trying their best to prove that election of geonicidal maniacs is actually a lesser evil as compared to what is happening in Paksitan. THat would sure put even Goebles, Bush and Rumsfeld to shame.

Isn`t it a shame that they still blame Muslims for burning the train even after their own Hindu government has released investigation report that the accelerant that caused the fire was already in the train.....I mean how the hell it is posssible to to get 60 liters of petrol into a boggey full of hooligans....oops I mean pilgrims. Did the Muslims ask their permission first ``oh excuse us, let us board, we want to sprinkle this boggey with 60 litres of petrol and then set your sorry asses on fire...do you mind``. Another practical solution would have been Moltov Cocktails thrown from outside. But the picture of burning train as posted below suggests that it did not happen.....otherwise at least a little bit of fire also definitely would have been lit on the outside of the boggey....since the Motov cocktails, which essentially are corked glass bottles full of gasoline would have exploded outside wall, window glass panes, metal shutters, or window bars.....but it did not happen. So either the Muslim attackers asked people of the boggey to keep their windows open or the fire was laready inside.

Let us also not forget the Muslim woman who was forced into the boggey by the hooligans, which actually prompted the stone throwing match.

So my friend ferozk, it is not that hindus are stupid, they are hindus for crying out loud, they are as cunning as a crow.....but it is moral bankruptcy, hate, eternal cowardice and anti-Muslim prejudice, that has blinded their best judgment. And even a crow which is considered a wisest and most cunning bird in our folklore falls for the shit....as our Punjabi proverb goes ``Syaana KaaN gooN teh hi digda eh``

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#138 by Harpreet
Thanks for your input. I agree Rwanda model is probably nearer the truth though i confess i have not studied happenings in Rwanda in any great detail (whatever i learnt about Nazi Germany was from the book Rise and Fall of Third Reich, which is a classic).
We do however know where the cancer is, what the treatment is. I however do not see any doctor who can put an end to this cancer. If Sonia Gandhi is our best bet, then God save India.
Sridhar

re:#141 by ferozk
Good post. As Gandhiji said many decades ago, may be going thr` this fire will purify us. Sometimes, when people do not intuitively know what is wrong and what is right, they have to go thr` pain and suffering again and again to understand how to love and how not to hate. Was the tragedy of partition not bad enough that some Indians want to revisit the horrors again? Such is human nature that all lessons learnt over centuries from sages, saints are lost in moments of frenzy.
Sridhar

re:#132 by nasah
While i agree with and applaud the spirit of your post, i think the seeds of Modi victory were sown by Congress for many decades. Congress had perfected the art of pitting one community against another for political gains. Most of riots in post-independent India were politically motivated and orchestrated. Mrs Gandhi (for me she will always be ``that b!tch``) even divided sikhs and hindus, something that was not easy, given the close relationships the 2 communities have had over centuries.
So, the seeds were already sown. Then comes Modi, who is doing what Congress had always done. Only now, he adds some patriotic flavor to the whole issue and throws in ``fears of terrorism by muslims`` for good measure. The result is what you see. India`s democracy is being tested. Will this cancer spread or will well-meaning people realise the dangers and eliminate this cancer at its inception? Only time will tell.
Sridhar

mr ferozk:

get ready for a long haul.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,861047,00.html

These are dark days for India, it seems. ``What has happened in Gujarat is original in the sophistication and completeness of its articulation,`` Mr Guha said, adding: ``the creation of Pakistan at Partition is an open invitation to Hindu fundamentalists. As long as there is Pakistan there will be Hindu fundamentalism.``

Harpreet #137

For the record, Togadia has not won any elections and nor is he part of any political party. He is ``merely`` a leader of the VHP. This is the sense of the comparison with Bhidranwale.

Nasah, you have put it very well. These faults are within India and can only be cured by Indians. It is however difficult to put with ``experts`` from openly sectarian countries (with miniscule minorities) providing ``advice``.

Between Narendra Modi and the Indira/Rajiv/Sonia triad, it is hard to know who is more vile. The day when Ms. Sonia Gandhi and her descendants are out of politics will be a great one for India.

FerozeK # 141

You write:
......[Hate succeeds, when we give up on the specter of hope] ......

____________________________________________________________
...specter of hope?

Your english language skills are a testimonial that you are a product of an english-medium school....especially the grammar-school type. It also shows that you are the kind who are proudly challenged to read, write, and converse intelligently in urdu.

It is long time past that one could get away to appear as `parrha-likhha` by quoting the ilks of Burke & Mill. A lot of muslim children, not accustomed to colonial `education`, in US and Europe are pretty profficient in urdu, farsi, and arabic---besides latin languages.

Unless PakiLand is run by such kind there is no glimmer (ray, beam, spark..etc) of Hope in any muslim land.

My fellow Chowkies and dear friends, please do not blame each other and do not hold one another for being less tainted with sin and do not give way to hating each other. Please understand, why hate assumes the proportions of a levithan, which engulfs us all. It is so easy to hate, but to understand the reasons, why we hate is the real test of our mettle as human beings.

I have seen dark days in my life and I have seen days, when I felt that I could not hope again. There is always hope and hope only exists if we learn from our past mistakes and make a turn for the better. Hate succeeds, when we give up on the specter of hope and start to believe the naysayers of the world. It takes courage to hope, when all around you are doubting you and yes; it is difficult lead, when you are following own yourself.

All I ask; no all I beg, is that you do not hate each other, because when do, have you really considered who wins?

It is not you and I.

I have seen hate and I have looked into the eyes of hate and I have smelled the foulness of hate and I can tell you all, there is nothing to be gained by it except the gradual loss of decency in all of us and the end result is a process, which cheapens everything we once held dear. I do not blame the person, who hates me or wants to kill me. I simply do not understand, what they will possibly gain by hating or killing me? Life is too limited and too precious to be wasted in the pursuit of hate. Hate surrounds me in Pakistan and I cannot breath because of it and yes, I am tired of hate, because to me it is such a waste of potential.

Hence, my dear Chowkies, I cannot stop you from hating - I can only hope that you will one day realize the sheer futility of your cause and stop yourself. If you still wish to hate, then please hate, because you have a reason and not be because others tell you to hate. Hate all whom you please, but think for yourself before you hate!

Re: nasah

Well said!

Re: sadna

Yes, the rot started after 1947.

Ciao

pmishra;

{{Today the hindus have their own Bhidranwala in the form of Togadia and Jinnah in the form of Narendra Modi}}

What frightens me the most is that Bhinderanwala never had deep rooted support amongst Sikhs for a sustained period. He never gained an electoral mandate and was an instrument propagated by Congress to cleave the Akali vote.

No, what really frightens me is that Togadia et all have been elected and their worldview endorsed through the franchise, and that they have their hands near the reigns of power.

That scares the freaking living daylights out of me.


-h-

ps: Congratulations to those Gujaratis who voted for the BJP hate mongering snake oil salesmen, acceding to a mini genocide and relegating your state to the same moral level of Rwanda.

Well done.

rsridhar;

{{Gujarat gives the menacing appearance of Germany in the 20s when Weimar republic was in its last stages and Nazi party was trying to woo Germans with misplaced patriotism}}

- Whilst I agree with the comparison to a certain extent, because of the extremities of the explicit electoral platform of the BJP and its affiliates, and the Nazi style politics they peddle, I think there is another more recent example that can provide an insightful model for what we are currently seeing in Gujarat in terms of the unhinged doctrines and modus operandi of the pogroms: Rwanda.

Open demonisation with hysterical targetting and hatred based on ethnic/religious minority sustained by historical grievances amplified out of proportion, demonisation of the ``other`` to sub-human, judicial/institutional compliance (Hutu murdering one million Tutsis, police participation), use of hunting packs to carry out killing, use of kerosene, rape and machetes (low technology pogroms).

India has cancer. I wish we could simply perform a mastectomy and lop off Gujarat but its not going to happen.

Basically I feel more depressed about the future of India than I have ever felt before. Silicon Valley doesnt mean a thing whilst we roast children alive and the chefs walk free.

-h-

Romair

I remember you saying that you hoped the BJP wins total power in India so that there could be a civil war and India would fall apart. Whats with all the crocodile tears now?

Do your best.

-h-

Nasah

{{my congratulations to -- ms sonia gandhi -- what your swargbashi hubby did for Babri masjid – u madam did for Gujraat – thanks}}

- You forgot to mention what her MotherIndia-in-law did to Punjab.

When the history of this age is written, the corruption and failure of the Congress party will be seen to bear a great deal of responsibility for what we are going through now. And mark my words the Nehru/Gandhi family, self appointed eternal rulers of India, will be seen for the damage they have caused and the ground they ceded to the fascists all for the sake of the preservation of their bloodline`s rule.

-h-

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[ #123 by m_souza on December 15, 2002 8:40pm PT
#113 by Romair on December 15, 2002 2:42pm PT

“Jinnah was a great man by any standard. Modi is a killer. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.”
Modi is a killer. This is what you know and think..but we think they re the same

Ask those Hindu families who had to ecvacuate their homes in Pakistan (then India) and flee for their lives. Millions killed …And so many …so many of the Hindus who wished to stay there had to immediately get circumcised right in front of mocking public..so as to become a Muslim…so that they could stay in the holy land of Islam. It happened with my grandparents friend’s and relatives……yes!!! And we all know there were more Hindus migrating from Paksitan compared to Muslims going to Pakistan from India..
So to say that Jinnah is a great man…Wah!!!
I have heard that Paksitani song based on a Indian song “De dee hume azaadi bina ……sabarmati ke snt tune kar diya kamal, raghupari raghav rajaram”

Pakistani version of this song is similar in tune but wording is …all praise for Jinnah..that he got independence for Paksitan so peacefully …without any bloodshed…Wah!!…No bloodshed…really..
The kind of horrible scenes narrated by my grandparents are worse than hell. To ye to jis par beettee hai wohi janta hai.. ]

I heard a story that one train going to West Pakistan was stopped by a Sikh and there was instant fear that some violence is going to take place, but no, the Sikh guy wanted to just help a muslim girl reach her relatives in Pakistan. After safely seeing the girl climb into train the Sikh went away. And irony of this story is, when train reached its destination three Sikhs got down and immediately killed by guns of muslim goons. The Sikhs probably had probably gone into Pakistan to pick up their relatives.

On eastern India patience of Bengali Hindus ran out when Suhrawardy made a speech threatening Hindus with carnage, and there was instant reaction from Hindus of Calcutta. Hindus started killing muslims which prompted much maligned Mahatma to go on fast.

-ew

re:#117 by Urstruly
Dear Mullah,
While you are right in criticising Gujarat election results, to say Pak is one step behind India in fundamentalism is far fetched.
In this matter, you guys are the leaders. In fact, having failed in IT (Information Technology), Pakistanis have become leaders in a different kind of IT (International Terrorism). This has become a brand name with which Pak is increasingly being associated all over the world. Pakistanis can pride themselves for being instantly recognised at airports, seaports and various other venues. Alas, we Indians do not have that distinction.
The new revolution is being spearheaded by mullahs from the madrassas that have sprouted all over the country. Go to the following url, which talks about how deep the indoctrination of hatred is in Pakistan:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/commentary/story/0,4386,160838,00.html?
To know how much progress Pak has made and why we Indians cannot ever hope to catch up with you guys, go to the following url:
http://www.dawn.com/2002/12/14/ed.htm#3

Gujarat is no doubt a bad thing but how BJP succeeds depends on how it sells its brand of politics to rest of country and if there are any takers. Gujaratis` hatred for muslims is only rivalled by love for money and good life. Gujarat is a prosperous state (relatively speaking). If Modi can bring more prosperity to Gujarat, he would have succeeded. If his brand of politics brings more riots, disruptions in economic activity (as i suspect it will), then he will be punished severely in the next coming elections. The good thing with democracy is nothing is permanent. The bad thing of course is that we have to deal with scums like Modi now and then.
Sridhar

nasahji
Well said.

Main nahin hoon ahlewatan se door and the fight has to continue.

Any Gujjus here to talk more about these results with more information and detail? What lessons must other regions learn?

For example, how to bring to public focus the fundamental point that politicians repeatedly fool people, when they ask people to vote for security? Security and law and order is a fundamental right which it is the duty of the state to provide to all, not something which citizens should have to VOTE for after the failure of the state to fulfil its duty and under threat of riots and goons.

my fellow Indians -- don`t blame others for your ugliness that VHP is and a monstrosity that Modi turned out to BE -- it is all YOUR fault – your cancer – nobody else’s

there is/was a CANCER growing in the body politics of India of both Hindus and Muslims -- since old days –

pleeeze don`t blame Pakistan for the ugly ULCER that has burst open in Gujarat -- this cancer in the fabric of Hindu society was developing way before Pakistan came into existence -- Gandhi`s death and Nehru`s stubborness -- had stemmed the onslaught of this horrible disease -- whereas it flourished in the fertile bigoted soil of Pakistan --

but once the vultures had taken over the living body of Indian Governance at the Center by -- the wolves-in-sheepskins -- subterfuge -- it was only a matter of time --

my congratulations to Mr. Togadia -- my hope and prayers are with him -- that his `Hindutva lab` will do as great a job for his Hindu India as the `Islamutva lab` did for Muslim Pakistan....

my congratulations to -- ms sonia gandhi -- what your swargbashi hubby did for Babri masjid – u madam did for Gujraat – thanks

imitating BJP did neither of u two any good -- nor did it help the country –

the election showed that Gujratis do have -- `GOOD TASTE` – they don’t like ‘IMITATIONS’ -- they go for the ‘REAL STUFF’ –

Nehru and his daughter were political veterans -- had history behind them – u and ur late husband had NONE -- u two had no business being in politics. Period.

now for heavens sake – let go the family business mama – let go the Congress -- and let go the country – for crying out loud --

right now – I don’t feel good – I feel nauseated --

I and my FATHER did not fight the British and wrested the country from their iron hands -- to fall into the claws of these Hindutva vultures --

I want to vomit.... i really feel sick -- I would have a heart attack had I been in India --

achcaa hua hum agai ahl-e watan se dooor -- thanks America for saving from my countrymen....

HASAN

my fellow Indians -- don`t blame others for your ugliness that VHP is and a monstrosity that Modi turned out to BE -- it is all YOUR fault – your cancer – nobody else’s

there is/was a CANCER growing in the body politics of India of both Hindus and Muslims -- since old days –

pleeeze don`t blame Pakistan for the ugly ULCER that has burst open in Gujarat -- this cancer in the fabric of Hindu society was developing way before Pakistan came into existence -- Gandhi`s death and Nehru`s stubborness -- had stemmed the onslaught of this horrible disease -- whereas it flourished in the fertile bigoted soil of Pakistan --

but once the vultures had taken over the living body of Indian Governance at the Center by -- the wolves-in-sheepskins -- subterfuge -- it was only a matter of time --

my congratulations to Mr. Togadia -- my hope and prayers are with him -- that his `Hindutva lab` will do as great a job for his Hindu India as the `Islamutva lab` did for Muslim Pakistan....

my congratulations to -- ms sonia gandhi -- what your swargbashi hubby did for Babri masjid – u madam did for Gujraat – thanks

imitating BJP did neither of u two any good -- nor did it help the country –

the election showed that Gujratis do have -- `GOOD TASTE` – they don’t like ‘IMITATIONS’ -- they go for the ‘REAL STUFF’ –

Nehru and his daughter were political veterans -- had history behind them – u and ur late husband had NONE -- u two had no business being in politics. Period.

now for heavens sake – let go the family business mama – let go the Congress -- and let go the country – for crying out loud --

right now – I don’t feel good – I feel nauseated --

I and my FATHER did not fight the British and wrested the country from their iron hands -- to fall into the claws of these Hindutva vultures --

I want to vomit.... i really feel sick -- I would have a heart attack had I been in India --

achcaa hua hum agai ahl-e watan se dooor -- thanks America for saving me from my countrymen....

HASAN

re:#121 by m_souza
Journalism in India seems to be the last refuge and people like Farzana prove it many times over. Most of her articles mean nothing. They are just ramblings of a bored, frustrated soul. It must be a difficult world for the likes of Farzana who want to change the world with their pen! Few have been successful. Most end up having a cynical view of everything around them. Every little thing takes a different meaning then.
Sridhar

re: Gujarat elections
It is a sad day for India. Gujarat has been lost beyond redemption. At least that is how it appears to me. Gujarat gives the menacing appearance of Germany in the 20s when Weimar republic was in its last stages and Nazi party was trying to woo Germans with misplaced patriotism. Jews became the targets (and scapegoats) for all the frustrations and failiure of a post-war Germany humiliated by defeat and forced to accept an unequal treaty.
Today`s BJP is trying to beat up patriotism among hindus with hatred against muslims. Muslims are painted with the same wide brush. All are terrorists, according to BJP. The day is not far when all the India`s failures are pinned upon the muslim community. For the old guard (unfortunately still at the top of RSS/BJP hierarchy), partition of India was the ``great betrayal`` and muslims are to blame. This theme is going to be played all over the country with varying colors and themes. We do not have a Gandhi to take on this juggernaut. Will India have to go thr` the same fate as Nazi Germany before learning its lessons? Only time will tell.
Sridhar

re:#121 by m_souza
Farzana is a Pakistani soul in an Indian body. One more proof of reincarnation!
Sridhar

re: Gujarat elections
Shenoy has a different take on the elections and the reason for BJP victory.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=276722
Sridhar

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...how conveniently the farceannas and urstrulys of the world forget the start of the gujarat fire....

........... there goes the neighborhood

........i usually don`t pay much attention to what goes on on the wrong side of the border because we have enough problems of our own .......... i couldn`t find gujarat on the map and thought it was somewhere south of sri lanka ............ and the horrible hindoos on the chowk almost had me convinced that india was a true secualar democracy with a gdp that was going to put it ahead of spain at any moment ........ then i find out that this modi character makes our own maulana fazloo and his sidekicks, sammy and qazi, look like a bunch of choir boys..........

.......... i know this is supposed to make me feel a little better about ourself, but some how it doesn`t .......... just goes to show the neighborhood is more dangerous than we thought .............

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RE: 110 by FarzanaVersey on December 15, 2002 11:39am PT
Farzana is incredibly boring, winging, wining, crying, complaining..she has no sense to see clearly with cool mind. She lacks grace, she is rude, she is just spiteful and she is blinded by rage. I think it is people like her who are responsible for bringing all the wrongs to their community. Didn’t I praise kalam? People like Abdul Kalam unite India. But Farzana is like Bal Thakery or maybe Modi of the Muslim community
I had a Muslim computer teacher, such a gentle soul. Malice towards none. And so many other nice people.

Farzana writes “Just in case these worthies have forgotten, there are religions other than Hinduism that do have religious texts.”…
C’mon Farzana ..who has forgotton that. It is you who is harping on and on about Islam Islam Islam..

Didn’t I mention that I myself have read the Holy Quaran… as I have read Guru Granth Sahib…and most of Bible too…and I could never say openly I find them incredibly boring..even if (I add.. even if) I found something boring. There is something good in all of them. But if you want me to say that only Islam is good..or only Quaran is the word of God…why should I say that. What do we know? Who knows all that has been written in the books is just to bind people..to scare them that if they believe in anything but Allah they are doomed. Where is the proof??? Has anyone come back from heavens or hell and told that they believed in any other religion besides Islam and so they went to hell and were tortured. But Muslims have been scared to death by all those strict beliefs.
And do I believe Lord Rama would be angry with Hindus if they do not built a temple again at his birth place…a place where Babar built a mosque by destroying a previous temple. God is One and he would punish us if we do wrong to any community. I happily read all books from all religions. They are more or less the same in their good teachings and only some have more aggressive attitude others are more servile and soft.

My book..my religion…my community…MY MY MY..…Farzana you really lack grace and maturity…your tone of writing is utterly like a teenager. Such forums are not meant for spreading hatred. But you always end up making people fight with each other

113 by Romair on December 15, 2002 2:42pm PT

“Imagine what would have happened in the international media, had a Pakistani govt. organized the killing of upto 2000 Hindus through sword killing Muslims”

Yes, if Pakistani Hindus (whatever few number is left there) had burnt a train full of Paksitani Muslims, killing 60 people in the very Pakistani land…then….well..well…then…….need I say more.
PS: I still don’t approve of what the fanatics do..Hindu or Muslim

#113 by Romair on December 15, 2002 2:42pm PT

“Jinnah was a great man by any standard. Modi is a killer. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.”
Modi is a killer. This is what you know and think..but we think they re the same

Ask those Hindu families who had to ecvacuate their homes in Pakistan (then India) and flee for their lives. Millions killed …And so many …so many of the Hindus who wished to stay there had to immediately get circumcised right in front of mocking public..so as to become a Muslim…so that they could stay in the holy land of Islam. It happened with my grandparents friend’s and relatives……yes!!! And we all know there were more Hindus migrating from Paksitan compared to Muslims going to Pakistan from India..
So to say that Jinnah is a great man…Wah!!!
I have heard that Paksitani song based on a Indian song “De dee hume azaadi bina ……sabarmati ke snt tune kar diya kamal, raghupari raghav rajaram”

Pakistani version of this song is similar in tune but wording is …all praise for Jinnah..that he got independence for Paksitan so peacefully …without any bloodshed…Wah!!…No bloodshed…really..
The kind of horrible scenes narrated by my grandparents are worse than hell. To ye to jis par beettee hai wohi janta hai..

Urstruly#117

``what a releif to see that we will always be a step behind.``

I agree, you will always be step behind, I would say lot of steps behind, how ever not in this respect. After hearing for years that your fundos are a fringe group and have never won an election, they made a clean sweep of half of your states. Our fundos have only won in one state and lost in three.

Romair #113
Multiple references have been posted several times on what is taught to Pakistani children. If noone here chooses to acknowledge or comment on these references..?

Re the similarities, the statements of many Pakistanis posting on chowk, the statements of Modi and the statements of Jinnah bear a curious resemblence. How many Hindus were originally in Pakistan and how many of them ARE still left in Pakistan?

Let me jog your memory with a quote remembered recently (reply 196)
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001622&channel=chaathouse&start=60&end=69&page=7&chapter=1#replies

This is no `blame` being assigned here, only the continuity of the idea of essential religious separateness is being pointed out. Modi uses similar politics but he need to be dealt with by Indians, without reference to anyone except India and Indians.

Farzana
If your quote looks the same as my quote, what more can I say.

Dear Hindus

I think congratulations are in order for the great victory.

[I used to think that my country was fukked up; what a releif to see that we will always be a step behind.]

sadna #109: ``To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah and what Modi says to win elections is the exact counterpart of what is taught in Pakistan in school as the basis for nationhood. ``

This is an extremely ridiculous comment -biased, filled with hatred, misguided self-serving justifications and the reason that people like Modi are winning in India. Jinnah was a great man by any standard. Modi is a killer. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I am not sure how many schools you have attended in Pakistan. So please get your facts straight. No one in Pakistani schools is taught to kill Hindus, or hate Hindus as a basis of nationalism. And no where in Pakistan are Hindus being killed by the common populace. None of the religious parties of Pakistan have on their agenda, killing of Hindus or any other minority (go check their websites - unlike the BJP, which states its racism on its website against Muslims). At most they want separate seats - an idea that has been shot down by Musharraf.

Modi is not a avatar of Jinnah. Modi is what Jinnah was afraid of, when he demanded Pakistan. Jinnah was afraid that Modi(s)/Advanis/Vajpayees of India would someday take over India, or at least enjoy great influence in certain areas of India. Modis of India are a vindication of Jinnah`s views and a vindication of Pakistan, as far as I am concerned.

Jinnah wanted Pakistan, not because he thought any country with two religions should be two separate countries. He wanted Pakistan, because he felt the BJPs of India would never consider Muslims equal to them, and thus Muslims would never get the protection they needed. Jinnah even agreed to a joint federation of India, with no Pakistan, in which Muslims security would be gauranteed (an idea accepted by Gandhi and the British, but shot down by Nehru).

I can sit here, as a Pakistani, and loudly and proudly, criticise the BJP, with zero fear of any backlash. Could I have done that had I lived in Gujrat? I, as a Muslim, have zero fear of the Hinduvta revolution in India. Can the same be said about patriotic Indian Muslims - each one I talk to is sitting scared and frustrated wondering what the hell is going to happen to him/her, if the BJP really shows its true colors, while simultanerously attempting to be politically correct, so as to not get the Congress angry?

Indians need to get out of blaming everything on Pakistan, and do some introspection - much like Pakistanis are doing and have been forced to do, over the past three years. The reason the BJP killed so many of its own citizens has nothing to do with Jinnah. It hates Jinnah. How in the world could it use him as its symbol. It has nothing in common with Jinnah (or with Gandhi, for that matter).

The day the Gujrat riots occured was the day my respect for Jinnah grew many fold - not because of his personal secularism (I am neither a secularist, nor a religionist - I am a humanist), but because of his far-sightedness and his humanism.

Pakistanis get blamed from both sides in India. The Nehruvians hate Pakistanis because they think Pakistan discredited the secularism of India and created the Modis. The BJPians hate them because they think the split up, ``their`` land.

The more and more I read such comments, the more I am begining to realize the wierd predicament the Indian Muslims are in. They are caught between a nutcracker of Indian politics, being used by both sides. Congress uses them to justify its, ``secularism,`` while BJP uses them to justify its, ``Hinduvta.`` One party requires them to put their religion on the backburner to be a part of the mainstream, while the other uses their religion to divide the Hindu polity. Who in the world is actually trying to look after the Indian Muslim interests?

And most of all, if Indians consider Indian Muslimsto be their fellow countrymen, then what difference does it make to them who Jinnah was or wasn`t? Why bring him into everything? Why not state the obvious, i.e. there is a great deal of popularity of sidelining Muslims in India and of promoting Hinduvta. Many Indians have voted, freely and fairly, for this again and again. This is a huge problem for India in the future. And it is a completely self-created problem. Blaming Pakistan for it is not going to solve it (infact, by doing so the BJPs and sadnas are actually enflaming it furthur).

Pakistan has had to go through a lot of soul-searching and criticism in the past three years - specially since Sep 11. Many Pakistanis have been rightly upset at the free-for-all shots everyone and their grandparents have been taking against Pakistan (e.g. ``To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah and what Modi says to win elections is the exact counterpart of what is taught in Pakistan in school as the basis for nationhood.``). Everyone assumes Pakistan gave nuclear secrets to Korea, because one guy in the New York Times say so (no proof, no evidence - just an article). People cannot even name the journalist, but take his word, knowing fully well the policy of the US govt. in planting false stories in newspapers (please see last weeks 60 minutes). At least ask the guy to provide evidence, and then pass a judgement.

I have always felt that all this, though painful in the short run, in the long run, is good for Pakistan. It has forced Pakistan to deal with all the issues that had been shoved under the carpet, in an international spotlight. Much of the criticism of Pakistan was politically motivated, but much was accurate. It has forced Pakistan to recognize the many cancers that were eating it up.

India, unfortunately, due to its larger size and internaitonal clout, has not been forced to deal with its skeletons in its closets. Imagine what would have happened in the international media, had a Pakistani govt. organized the killing of upto 2000 Hindus through sword killing Muslims?

There is only seat in the past elections that has gone to a clearly extremist political party. That was the seat won by Azam Tariq of the Sapah-e-Sahaba (SSP - Pakistan`s equivalent of BJP) in Jhang. SSP has an agenda of killing and sidelining Shias. SSP party was banned and he was in jail. The Supreme Court ordered his release, since he had been put in jail without proof. India`s SSP is running the country. I would be concerned if the SSP took over Pakistan and I would not blame it on India. Indians should be concerened similarly, since the BJP is running India.

If any party in Pakistan, as a part of its agenda, had the killings/sidelining of minorities in Pakistan, I would oppose it, even if it turned Pakistan into Singapore (one of the main reasons I support Musharraf is because of the support he has given to minorities and to women in Pakistan). This is more than I can say for BJP supporters in India. Infact, if BJP had done well economically, the now disheartened supporters of BJP, would have not worried too much about its views on Indian Muslims.

Indians are facing a huge dilemma with the win of BJP in Gujrat. As an outsider, all I can say is, it seems that if the BJP returns to its Hinduvta roots, it wins. If it is moderate, it loses. If the BJP sticks around for fifteen years, it will tear apart India`s vulnerable social are communal fabric.

At a time like this, the last thing any patriotic Indian should do is to take cheap shots at Jinnah and Pakistan.

Well, folks the Pakistanization of Gujarat is complete today. Jinnah`s heir in India is none other that Narendra Modi. For one, Islam was in danger; for the other hindoun ko khatra hai. Both believe and supported the two nation theory. Both called for and allowed others to implement a murder-filled direct action day.

So the fight is on. Today the hindus have their own Bhidranwala in the form of Togadia and Jinnah in the form of Narendra Modi. It will be our duty to resist these people with the same strength that we resisted their ``progenitors``. Jai Hind ! Satyamev Jayate !

Here is the latest from Rediff.com on the future of things to come.
Apologists for indian secularism......... please don`t bother.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`Hindu Rashtra` in two years: Togadia
[The Bharatiya Janata Party`s victory in Gujarat was a turning point in Indian history and the experiment of the `Hindutva lab` will be repeated in Delhi, Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader Pravin Togadia said on Sunday.

Togadia told a press conference in Jaipur: ``The Hindutva lab has started functioning... the BJP has won all the three seats where by-elections were held in Rajasthan. The final result will come by the next assembly election in the state.

``When madrassas in various parts of the country can train jihadis, why can`t the VHP set up its Hindutva lab?

``The minorities should decide how they want to live in India... The VHP will not decide their future... it is a question of co-existence in the Hindu Rashtra.

``A Hindu Rashtra can be expected in the next two years... we will change India`s history and Pakistan`s geography by then,`` he added.]

hey there,
this kind of rhetoric from coming from any side isnt healthy...
after reaqding through the article and most of the responses, I found nothing but just superficial shit throwing all across the board. Would this solve the problem, probably not, would it agravate it? definitely yes!
So what should we do...
think about the solution...
++#101 by m_souza ++
I found some hint of reasonability in some of your comments, so would like to forward this debate with my two pennies...
As a student of world religions I found out that all these religions were evolved with the evolution of the human beings from a savage animal and a slave of his instincts, into a being with higher intelectual powers. Under a wide range of circumstances through out the planet earth these humans, developed there own theories and set of beliefs to answer there questions for the things they they didnt knew or they couldnt explain. This led to development of sciences, when things could be explained using certain logics or proofs, or to the development of religion when things were beyond the logics and proofs, discovered till then, by atributing it to the unknown higher powers(GOD). In the past few centuries, when the humans broke the barriers of distance and got closer to each an exchange of ideas of all kind and theories of all type happened which led to the openiong of this scientific progress which we see today. Unfortunately, however, this development in the realms of sciences out-paced the development in the field of religion. Most of the religions we see today have actualy stopped growing and in fact started shrinking in their ideological base.
Moreeover we had the stupid idea that the science, church, individual life, state, society are separate entities and should not interfere with each other. This crippled the Human development so much that we are now afraid of thinking. the proponents of this division had went on too far in creating this gulf, but its still not that late to mend it.
The solution to ur problems is in the further growth of all these religions until the peak of their evolution, by merging in to each other yet keeping their own identity. Aftrerall, they all preach the same idea of a higher being, and of human dignity and peaceful co-existance in their essence, using different names and themes.
We need forums to spread the word and lead to a reunification of all these compartments of human life into one, so we can achieve the eternal bliss for our species.
Time to go will appear later, and would love to see some response to my comments.

Yes, so we are a democracy. Someone at Chowk can talk about how Modi deserves to be murdered, but he will still blather if I raise the issue. Because, I have the wrong `identity`. This too is democracy. Anyway, rejoice...this is the way my India is going, and if you want to really know what the hell I mean, come back home.

As for those who are happily misquoting me and telliing me that I should at least have some respect for the Hindu religion, here is my quote from post #57: ``I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway.`` Just in case these worthies have forgotten, there are religions other than Hinduism that do have religious texts.

Sadna, thanks...though I had only asked for the right quote :) The PM uttered those words, irrespective of everything else. However, I cannot go through all the urls you posted, though your access to the material is enviable indeed.

(Btw, just discovered the rating system here...heartening to note that ``irrelevant`` stuff gets people so hot, bothered and responsive!)

post #109

``To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah``

Yet another asinine statement from one of the self-proclaimed ``objective`` Hindus at Chowk.

feroz
I appreciate what you are saying and this is indeed the time to say it, thanks. I hope you realise, the point you are talking of didnot come in 1971 for `Pakistanis`, it came in the years before 1947. To me, Modi is an avatar of Jinnah and what Modi says to win elections is the exact counterpart of what is taught in Pakistan in school as the basis for nationhood.
----whatever

A figure given by someone on cable news(I donot know how accurate) was that before Godhra, the BJP would have won only 40-50 seats(something like the Congress has won). Just before Godhra, Modi had won a byelection by a narrow margin and before that the Congress had wiped out the BJP statewide in panchayat and municipal elections, including winning Ahmedabad city after many years. That was the result of 10 years of BJP in office.

So Godhra and its aftermath did help BJP a lot.

But, in an electorate of 30 million with sub regions where Cong HAS made gains at the expense of BJP, and there were local factors at play(like caste, earthquake relief and anti-incumbency), this was not a Hindu-Muslim hate vote alone. I donot know if the final vote shares are out, but at an intermediate stage, they were shown as BJP 49% Cong 40% and others 9%.

In the `first past the post` electoral system, its not the absolute vote share as can be seen from the above figures, but the `swing` in vote share or percentage difference(in this case 9%) is what decides whether it will be hung assembly or a 2/3rd majority or what. The reasons for the swing (if I am not mistaken 9% is considered a large swing) are what need to be understood and hate-and-Modi-vs-Waghela was no doubt THE major factor.

But emotions are ephemeral and profit only politicians while they last. In some months time, if things settle down, I wonder if business-savvy Gujju bhais whose economy has been suffering under Modi are going to wake up one day and think omigosh we already had 10 years of these folks and now we have 5 more years to go.

As for the VHP-BJP strategy of hate, spreading to other regions, I am sure its very possible in pockets,esp given what they say of the central Gujarat tribal belt which used to be Cong. dominated but saw riots and contributed many seats to the BJP sweep too. Emulating Gujarat in a whole state may be much more difficult, IMO.

Hate is good, hate is powerful, hate is glorious----only if directed against the oppressor, the imperialist, the thug, the gangster.

With a resounding chorus and in unison the entire humanity is letting us know---the Devil is the US, the Anglo, the `West`. Until & unless these thugs do not learn to visit others without uniform & guns this hatred would continue relentless & unabated, within & without.

Wise ones learn, Ignorants & Arrogants are taught.

____________________________________________________________Koreans protest US response to girls` death

SEOUL, Dec 14: Tens of thousands of people carrying candles descended on the US embassy here Saturday to protest what they considered was an inadequate US response to the deaths of two schoolgirls crushed by a US military vehicle in June.

Regular protests have rocked Seoul for a month as the anti-US sentiment sparked by a US court martial`s decision to acquit two soldiers on charges of negligent homicide in the incident has reached a near boiling point.

On Saturday, an intersection near the US embassy was awash in flickering candlelight, the tapers borne aloft by an estimated crowd of 50,000 people who booed and shouted slogans.

``Bring Mi-sun and Hyo-soon back to life,`` the crowd chanted, interspersing inspiring songs led by Yoon Do-Hyun, who composed a fight song for the recent football World Cup here.

Protesters also gathered in front of city hall, where student radicals shredded eight giant US flags. Slogans were also chanted that urged changes to the controversial Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which regulates relations with the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and allows US authorities jurisdiction over crimes committed by American soldiers in the line of duty. Some demanded the outright withdrawal of all US troops.

Organizers said Saturday`s rallies were the biggest so far, as the anti-US sentiment that was once largely confined to radical student groups had infected mainstream South Koreans, including star athletes, movie stars and musicians.

Police mobilized 15,000 riot-trained troops clad in protective gear and carrying shields to control the largely-peaceful crowd, creating a human ring around the high-walled embassy that was also protected by bumper-to-bumper police buses.

Activists have hurled Molotov cocktails in the wave of protests leading up to Saturday`s event, and have rushed the security lines to force their way onto US military bases. But no incidents were reported Saturday.

In the southeastern city of Daegu, two students wrapped in the national flag scaled the wall of a US military base and climbed up to a giant water tank to chant their anti-US slogan, footage broadcast on television showed.

A phone call Friday with South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung in which US President George W. Bush voiced his ``deep personal sadness`` - the first time the US president made direct reference to the deaths of the girls - did little ease the growing anti-US sentiment in what had been one of Washington`s strongest Asian allies.

US Ambassador to Seoul Thomas Hubbard had earlier conveyed Bush`s regret over the tragedy. ``We cannot accept it as a direct apology to the Korean people. We demand him to apologize in the capacity of the US president instead of whispering personal sadness on the phone,`` said Chai Hee-Byeong, secretary general of an umbrella group of civic activists.

Chai said Bush sidestepped the issue of a controversial accord governing the status of the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea, offering only a vague promise to work closely with Seoul to prevent such accidents in the future.-AFP

Was it not hate for the British colonialism & Imperialism that won us our independence & freedom---at least nominal. Was it not hate against the US in vietnam that sent the thugs packing?. Was it not the hate of hindus for muslims that fecilitated Pakistan.

Is it not the hate the Kashmiris, the Falasteenees, the Latin Americans , the chinese and the muslims have for the Imperialists & Neo-Colonists that keeps the CNN in business? Was it not hate for communism that got Russia & the world somewhat free of atheism & godlessness?

The answer is written on the wind sand and sea.

____________________________________________________________
Koreans protest US response to girls` death

SEOUL, Dec 14: Tens of thousands of people carrying candles descended on the US embassy here Saturday to protest what they considered was an inadequate US response to the deaths of two schoolgirls crushed by a US military vehicle in June.

Regular protests have rocked Seoul for a month as the anti-US sentiment sparked by a US court martial`s decision to acquit two soldiers on charges of negligent homicide in the incident has reached a near boiling point.

On Saturday, an intersection near the US embassy was awash in flickering candlelight, the tapers borne aloft by an estimated crowd of 50,000 people who booed and shouted slogans.

``Bring Mi-sun and Hyo-soon back to life,`` the crowd chanted, interspersing inspiring songs led by Yoon Do-Hyun, who composed a fight song for the recent football World Cup here.

Protesters also gathered in front of city hall, where student radicals shredded eight giant US flags. Slogans were also chanted that urged changes to the controversial Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which regulates relations with the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and allows US authorities jurisdiction over crimes committed by American soldiers in the line of duty. Some demanded the outright withdrawal of all US troops.

Organizers said Saturday`s rallies were the biggest so far, as the anti-US sentiment that was once largely confined to radical student groups had infected mainstream South Koreans, including star athletes, movie stars and musicians.

Police mobilized 15,000 riot-trained troops clad in protective gear and carrying shields to control the largely-peaceful crowd, creating a human ring around the high-walled embassy that was also protected by bumper-to-bumper police buses.

Activists have hurled Molotov cocktails in the wave of protests leading up to Saturday`s event, and have rushed the security lines to force their way onto US military bases. But no incidents were reported Saturday.

In the southeastern city of Daegu, two students wrapped in the national flag scaled the wall of a US military base and climbed up to a giant water tank to chant their anti-US slogan, footage broadcast on television showed.

A phone call Friday with South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung in which US President George W. Bush voiced his ``deep personal sadness`` - the first time the US president made direct reference to the deaths of the girls - did little ease the growing anti-US sentiment in what had been one of Washington`s strongest Asian allies.

US Ambassador to Seoul Thomas Hubbard had earlier conveyed Bush`s regret over the tragedy. ``We cannot accept it as a direct apology to the Korean people. We demand him to apologize in the capacity of the US president instead of whispering personal sadness on the phone,`` said Chai Hee-Byeong, secretary general of an umbrella group of civic activists.

Chai said Bush sidestepped the issue of a controversial accord governing the status of the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea, offering only a vague promise to work closely with Seoul to prevent such accidents in the future.-AFP

Seems like BJP is going to win. I would say this is bad news for India in the long run.

If it does win, will this encourage it to use the same tactics in other provinces and for the national election. After all, wherever it tried to show its moderate face, it lost. Wherever it has shown its real face, it is winning.

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[ #57 by FarzanaVersey on December 13, 2002 11:34am PT
...
About the goof-up of Ravana’s tail instead of Hanuman’s, I had removed it before sending the print version after realising it (it wasn’t ignorance here, but the image of Modi as Ravana was occupying my mind), but while posting it at Chowk I used the unchanged hard copy. Anyway, thanks to all those who pointed it out. I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway. ]

You must be finding Modi`s speaches also infinitely boring. Where is the need to falsify his words? Does not the journalistic integrity demand that you verify a person`s words before you attribute it to him/her?

-ew

Feroz (100),

``There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are. These are the old truths we are painfully rediscovering after a century and more of sentimental cant. Those who deny them deny their family, their heritage, their culture, their birthrights, their very selves! They will not lightly be forgiven.``

Michael Dibdin quoted by Samuel Huntington in The Clash of Civilizations.

Feroz,

Well said.

Farzana says in her post 57: ``all the epic books (Hindu) I have read. I find them infinitely boring anyway``. She is an educated Muslim woman. So I can imagine what uneducated Muslims think about Hinduism. I don’t say Indian Muslims or other religions have to enjoy Hindu books and scriptures but respect..just some respect. But if they hate Hinduism, calling them kafirs, calling it a false religion then that Is not going to solve any problems. And of course we want to solve the problems, not aggravate them.
If Muslims hate the very religion of their ancestors..then why do they expect Hindus to respect a religion, which came from other lands, which was brought by attacking invaders? A religion, which they beleive destroyed their temples. After all scars don’t heal, we have learnt from the history. But we can try some healing ..both ways.

If deep in their hearts Muslims accept this fact that they should not hate Hinduism just because Saudi, Arabic or other Muslims hate it due to misconceptions like idol worship etc. Now, what do non-Indian Muslims know about Hinduism. Nothing. But look at our Indian President, APJ Abdul Kalam. He is a devout Muslim but he is equally well versed in Hindu Scriptures. And do you know who made the so very popular Indian TV serial “Mahabharta”? It was a Muslim Sanjay Khan. See, they know as much if not more about their ancestors than Hindus and are yet Muslims. Neither ashamed of their ancestoral religion, nor ashamed of being Muslims. They two of the so many successful Indian Muslims with respect for all. Not everyone has to study Hinduism like these people did…after all, India is a democratic and secular country. But no harm in respecting and trying to understand what it is in Hinduism besides the outward show. I have read a lot about Holy Quran. There are good things there. And yet I am a Hindu and intend to remain so.

Hindus also have to realize that if Hinduism accepts so many different forms of worship and various ways of praying…. even in one religion… then let Indian Muslims follow their religion peacefully. After all ..God is One..call him Allah ..call him Ram.

Reply Arjun_M #91

``Whats good for gujrat isnt good for maharashtra or for other parts of the country....people in bangalore would rather riot over a film star being kidnapped..``

Or found dead. (25 buses burned, right?)

``To get the hindus to riot would require the vhp etc to fake some sort of an attack on hindus or latch on to something like godhra.``

Indeed.

``If you go over the communal riots of the past years, most of the riots were localized and trigerred in that locality by specific indidents..godhra, bombay etc. etc. Even when gujrat was burning, bombay was peaceful. When bombay was bruning in 92, gujrat was peaceful.``

Bombay was peaceful because the Govt made thousands of preventative arrests of Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal activists. In fact those parts of Gujarat where such arrests were made (Kutch) also saw much less violence. Also, there WAS some communal violence in Maharashtra (North of Bombay) during that time.

IMO the conditions for communal riots exist in many parts of India - but large scale communal violence does not take place without the Govt of the day (and place) turning a blind eye to it.

If you recall, Godhra is located quite close to the MP border with Gujarat, and there were fairly strenuous attempts to spread the violence to MP - attempts which Digvijay Singh (Congress) stamped on hard (and successfully). That`s why there is such unease with the BJP`s role in the whole thing - it couldn`t have happened the way it did without them.

(Congress has a similar story to answer for re the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi.)

The news, btw, is that the BJP won big in Gujarat - something like 125 to 50 seats. Spoke to some relatives from Gujarat before then, and they all predicted a BJP win - but I suppose we`re all surprised at the extent of their victory.

Anyway - I hope that you`re right, but I think that the BJP`s win is going to encourage those parts of the Sangh Parivar which deal in political violence. Thing is, if they get RESULTS, their pov is hard to counter within the Parivar without saying that it is their ideas and assumptions which are wrong - and I doubt that other parts of the Parivar are going to do that.

A tangent: I was in Bombay two weeks ago when a bomb went off in a bus in Ghatkopar, killing two people and injuring many. The Bombay riots were particularly violent there - and the timing (just before the anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition) and location of the bomb seemed to be a clear reminder of where things had gone in Bombay when Gujarat like violence had been allowed to go on unchecked. A ``response`` bomb then went off a few days later in a McDonald`s (!) in a Muslim majority area of the city, but apart from that the anniversary passed peacefully. It`s almost as if the msg was ``we went there before, you don`t want to go there again, right? well, we don`t either, so please don`t start something...`` Frightening, but it has a sick logic.

Regards

wow. wonder if mma is going to be stealing a play from the gujrat playbook. even after all the histrionics and isi support, they only won about 50% of the seats in sarhad assembly.

Congrats to Modi and BJP!

Modi is a political genius and the BJP has to be lauded for supporting him through thick and thick. Congress failed, because it simply it did not understand the political value of hatred. The only person, who really understood region of South Asia and its people was M. K. Gandhi. Gandhi understood the fact that India, in its heart, is a communal state.

Hate unifies the opinion and hate clears all doubts; hate identifies common values and hate offers that rare glimpse of purpose, when all is failing and stands discredited. We worship at the alter of hate, because hate is a narissistic reflection of our own deep seated yearings. We may rave and rant against the various faces of hate, but hate always turns to us one, which our own and we meekly assume a silence of hypocricy. As long as we rationale hatred without understanding its reasons, we will always tolerate hate and justify its existence. Hate does not orginate, but from within the tangled web of our minds and circumtances do not give cause to hate, but the evil that lurks in all our hearts, which flames its destruction.

Edmund Burke once said that evil succeds not because good men do it, but because they do nothing to stop it. There is much to be said about that quote and if one adds John Donne to it, then the bells are really tolling for all of us.

Hate is universial and hated has to be resisted. If hate is not resisted and it is allowed to flourish unabated, then the only consequence is facism and all of us, who wish the life of the world to move on to the broad sunlit uplands of hope and goodness, can only watch with caution the darkening of the horizon with the clouds of dread and hopelessness.

We may blame hate mongers of the world, but we should blame ourselves for standing by, as the hate marches past us in all its glory.

We all come at a pivotal cross roads in our lives and in the lives of our nation and we are faced with a choice. The people of Pakistan were faced with that choice 31 years ago, today, on December 16, 1971 and we failed, because we rationalized, instead of reasoning, our choice. That day, and the days preceding it, had we as a nation said, ``my country, it is of thee that I cry`` our fortunes might have been different and we always be poor for not knowning the difference.

India faces a similar choice and the path to hate and violence is so easy and so tempting that it rationalizes the choice, without a moment`s reason. There are Indians, who love India and cherish her and it is sincerely hoped that those Indians will make a choice; a choice that will not make them say, ``my country it is of thee that I cry``.

Best wishes for the new year to all; and may she be better one than one before her.

Ciao

Seems like BJP is going to win. I would say this is bad news for India in the long run.

If it does win, will this encourage it to use the same tactics in other provinces and for the national election. After all, wherever it tried to show its moderate face, it lost. Wherever it has shown its real face, it is winning.

[ #57 by FarzanaVersey on December 13, 2002 11:34am PT
...
Re: the cow, how I wish people used their memory before rushing to comment. Narendra Modi had been talking about how Sonia Gandhi was unconcerned about issues like cow protection. So… ]

Can you quote the full speech? If you can not then you should retract above statement.

Thanks, -ew

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Studebaker...so the deal should be...Indian Muslims would be well looke d after by the India and the sane Indians but in return they also have to make sure they don`t go around burning the trains and charring people to death(I have plenty of pictures of charred people being taken out of the burning train)
I DONOT justify the killings of muslims in India..that was horrible...and....
Believe me, we Indians have more concern and brotherhood for well-behaved Indian Muslims than Paksitani Muslims. They are as much Indian as anybody else. But constantly they have been misled by the neighbouring countries. If people from other countries cannot support them or do anything for them then why the hell do they instigate them against India or Indian government?
If Indian muslims are happy in India, doing well, enjoying more liberty and facilities..then it is bound to annoy and irritate some Pakistanis because that spoils their very purpose ...which is to prove that India is not actually secular. But if India becomes a Hindu country that also doesn`t make anyone happy.

Studebaker...you don`t have to convert back to Hinduism (your choice anyway) ..but more than anything else...all muslims from the sub-contitnent should have some respect for their ancestors or ancestoral religion. To realise that hating something from where you came is not going to bring blessings for you and your country.
Similarly, Hindus should also accept that people who have embraced any other religion are also Indians ans very much a part of the society so what if the religion came from outside. Not all Indian muslims are teh generations of teh converted people...some must have become muslims voluntatrily

#84 by Studebaker on December 14, 2002 12:45pm PT

++++++++++
I urge you to listen through the question answer sessions .....She is a Indian Hindu who has not read history by RSS Shiv Sena Or VHP .
++++++++++

She is a definite leftist. The history textbooks I read in school in India were written by historians like her. It seems like the purpose of these history books was to spread communal harmony than tell the truth about the muslim conquests.

When these historians describe muslim invaders they do not tell the truth. They do not say that the muslim invaders humiliated the locals, destroyed places of worship, forced conversions, killed scores of people. All we get is that the invaders were absorbed into the local culture. That is so much BS.

studebaker #83

There are people who call Christians foreigners. These people are in India and in Pakistan. Do you know how Christians confront these people? By behaving like Indians and Pakistanis. By behaving like Indians and Pakistanis, we get to ask for the rights due to Indians and Pakistanis. You may not know but many Indian Muslims do the same.

However, when you yourself claim that you are a foreigner, that your brothers are in Saudi Arabia, that you are completely different, that you live in the belly of the beast, others agree with you that you are an alien, a foreigner with no rights on India.

When Americans discover that you hold similar views about America, your American mata will also turn very hostile toward you. Unless you change your basic thinking, sooner or later, this is bound to happen. You will be fighting with all your matas except Saudi Mata, for whom you are no more than cheap household help. I have told you many times before - the era of free lunch is over.

GhalibZaman

Every ideology has attraction for some people. You will develop a very good understanding of the attraction of Islam for some people if you spend time studying the sexual underworld.

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Be they ants in their pants
or the chewnty in their chuddy
Their dance is really really good
though song is kind of duddy
----------------------------------
It is always good to keep in touch, it keeps your head spinning
confusion is not what it is called, its call Islam & its winning.
____________________________________________________________
The new face of Islam

The phenomenon of educated, white, middle class English converts to Islam.
by Nick Compton

At first she tried to resist. She did not want this to happen. She was not that sort of person. After all, there were no gaps in her life, no spiritual ache, she did not need support or direction. But she kept reading and it kept making sense.

`I had absolutely no expectation or desire to end up where I am,` she says. `It was almost with trepidation that I kept turning the pages and the trepidation just increased. I kept thinking: ``OK, where`s the flaw? Where`s the bit that doesn`t make sense?`` But it never came. And then it was like: ``Oh no, I can see where this is leading. This is disastrous. I don`t want to be a Muslim!``

Caroline Bate is 30 years old, blonde, blue-eyed and pretty, with a soft Home Counties accent. She has a degree from Cambridge (she studied Russian and German before switching to management studies) and works for an investment bank in the City. She is Middle England`s dream daughter or daughter-in-law. And though she has yet to make her formal declaration of faith in Allah and the prophet Mohammed - a two-line pledge called the Shahada - she considers herself Muslim. She ticked the box on a form recently. It felt good, she says.

Caroline is not alone. Though data is hard to come by, several London mosques have been reporting an increase in the number of converts to Islam, especially since 11 September. Like Caroline, many of these converts are from solid middle-class backgrounds, have successful careers, enjoy active social lives and are fundamentally happy with their lot.

This is not a new trend, however. Matthew Wilkinson, a former head boy of Eton, became Tariq, when he converted to Islam in 1993. Jonathan Birt, son of Lord Birt, late of the BBC and now the government`s transport guru, converted in 1997. The son and daughter of Lord Justice Scott also converted and Joe Ahmed Dobson, the 26-year-old son of the former Health Secretary Frank Dobson, has recently and, somewhat reluctantly, emerged as the voice of new Muslim converts in Britain. But it is a trend that has been pushed along by recent events. So far it has gone largely unnoticed, as the press concentrates on some of the more colourful characters that 11 September has thrown up.

Since 11 September, the luridly painted poster boys of British Islam have been radical clerics such as Abu Hamza al-Masri, the steel-clawed, milky-eyed so-called `mad mullah` of Finsbury Park mosque. Here are Victorian villains, fiendish emissaries of some ancient and foreign evil, straight out of an Indiana Jones movie.

Their followers are blank-eyed drones like Richard Reid, packing his high-tops with high explosives. Or James McLintock, the `Tartan Taliban`. There are lost boys, dislocated and dysfunctional, petty thieves preyed on in South London prisons and young offenders` institutions by fakir Fagins who forge an untempered anger into a righteous ire and provide it with a target. (Three imams working in British prisons have been suspended since 11 September for making `inappropriate remarks` about the terrorist attacks.)

But that is a sideshow, a compelling melodrama played out beyond the fringes of Islamic culture in this country. And while it might be stretching a point - and answering caricature with caricature - to insist that a demure English rose is the exemplar of the modern British convert to Islam, Caroline Bate is certainly more representative than Richard Reid.

Talking to recent Muslim converts, it is striking how similar the descriptions of their embrace of Islam are. Most were introduced to Islam, and Islamic history and teaching, by friends. And, given that Islam is not generally a missionary faith, these were gentle introductions. For most, conversion was born of curiosity, an attempt to better understand the people around them.

Caroline first started reading about Islam last April. A school friend she has known since she was 11 was marrying a Tunisian, a Muslim. `My best friend was marrying into a different culture so I wanted to know more about it,` she explains. `I came at it from more of a cultural perspective than a religious one. But the literature that I picked up just stimulated me. And Islamic teaching made perfect, logical sense. You can approach it intellectually and there are no gaps, no great leaps of faith that you have to make.`

Roger (not his real name) is a doctor in his mid-thirties. About a year and a half ago, he started talking about Islam to Muslim colleagues at work. `All I had ever heard about Islam in the media was Hezbollah and guerrillas and all of that. And here were these really decent people whom I was beginning to get to know. So I started to ask a few questions and I was amazed at my own ignorance.` He became a Muslim a couple of months ago.

For these new converts, embracing Islam is usually a covert operation. They quietly read, talk, listen, learn. The hard part is coming out, declaring your newly acquired faith to friends and family, and, in some cases at least, facing up to fear, scepticism and even loathing.

Caroline insists that the coming-out process has not been too painful. `The reaction has been pretty much what I expected. I`ve had everything from ``Do you know how they treat women?`` to ``Wow, great timing!`` But your friends are your friends and I expect them to deal with it.`

Others have had a harder time. Eleanor Martin, now Asya Ali (or some other combination of these names, depending on the circumstance), was a 24-year-old TV actress when she met Mo Sesay. She had a regular role as WPC Georgie Cudworth in BBC`s Dangerfield during the mid-Nineties and Sesay, who later starred in Bhaji on the Beach, was also a Dangerfield regular. Sesay is a Muslim.

`Mo was such a kind man, just a good person. He wanted to know me as a person, there was nothing else going on. And I thought, well, here is this really decent guy and he is a Muslim. And the image I had of Islam was of men beating up women and going round in tanks killing people.

`The thing is we both had regular parts on the show, but they weren`t very big parts, so we had a lot of time to sit in the caravan and talk. He really opened my eyes.`

Eleanor finally converted in 1996. `I wasn`t sure I was going to until the last minute and then it just felt as if everything had fallen into place and there was no other option.`

At first she kept her conversion secret. `I was afraid of an adverse reaction from friends and family. I was really worried about what my father would say.` Her father was a devout Christian. A former radiotherapist, he had taken early retirement to go into the priesthood. But circumstances forced Eleanor`s hand. A few months after she converted she met a Muslim African-American actor, Luqman Ali, and they decided to get married. `I went home and said: ``I`ve got some news. I`m getting married and I`m a Muslim.`` My mum was great. My dad said: ``I think I`m going to get a drink now.``

`It took Dad time. He went to see his spiritual adviser, a nun, whose brother happened to be a convert to Islam, and that helped. And he`s great now, too. He`s just happy that I`m following a path to God.`

Roger, meanwhile, has yet to tell family or work colleagues of his conversion. `I worry it will affect my career prospects,` he admits. `I know first-hand how little people understand Islam. I know there is prejudice based on ignorance. A couple of years ago, if someone had told me they had converted, I would have thought they were odd. I don`t want people to think I am an oddity or a curiosity because I don`t think of myself like that.`

Most converts acknowledge that living in an ethnically diverse city has made conversion easier than it might have been elsewhere. Stefania Marchetti was born and raised in Milan but came to London to study in 1997. She converted to Islam from Catholicism in April last year. `It would have been far more difficult for me to convert in Italy,` she admits. `The Italian media is very anti-Islam and generally Italians think that Muslim men are all terrorists and all Muslim women are slaves.`

Certainly Karen Allen, a 28-year-old scheduler for Sky TV from Stoke Newington, has enjoyed a relatively smooth transition period. She converted to Islam last June and soon started wearing the traditional headscarf or hijab. `When I first started wearing the hijab to work, there were a few jibes about Afghanistan and stuff, but people are fine now. They say things like: ``That`s a nice one you`re wearing today.``

`I think it might be more difficult outside London, but here there are a lot weirder things to look at than me.`

What is especially striking about this stream of converts to Islam is that the majority seem to be women. Some suggest that twice as many women as men are turning to Islam.

Batool Al Toma, who heads the New Muslim Project at the Leicester-based Islamic Foundation, which offers advice and support to recent converts, suggests this might be exaggeration, but admits that female converts are in the majority. `A lot of people seem to think that women are more susceptible to Islam. I think it`s largely because a lot of people are obsessed with the idea of an educated, liberated British woman converting to Islam which they feel subjugates and represses them in some way. We just get a lot more attention I suppose and that sparks people`s interest.`







Asya Ali: ``I was afraid of an adverse reaction from friends and family``








The lure of Islam for women is surprising, given that the conversion process may be even more problematic for them than for men. There is the commonly held belief that Islam represses women and female converts often have to deal with recrimination from female friends who view their adoption of Islam as some sort of betrayal. The wearing of a headscarf or hijab (a sartorial option, it should be noted, not a requirement) also makes Muslim women more visible than their male counterparts.

Certainly, all the women I spoke to were quick to refute the idea that Islam imposes a women-know-thy-place ideology.

`The perception of how women are treated is completely incorrect,` insists Caroline. `Women have a fantastic position in Islamic society.`

Indeed, many women converts talk about the adoption of the Islamic dress code as a liberation. They see it not as a denial of sex and sexuality but rather as an acknowledgement that these are treasures to be shared with a loved one and them alone. They are not hidden but rather freed from objectification.

Asya insists that the trick is to turn preconceptions on their head. She wears a scarf to show she is a Muslim and a smile to prove she is happy being one.

One problem for converts is that they are caught between two cultures. `Young Muslims are very accepting,` says Caroline. `They are really happy that you have chosen to become Muslim. The older generation are not so accepting. For them, Islam is part of their cultural background, it`s about the country they came from and it`s what binds their communities together.`

One step towards greater acceptance came last October when Reedah Nijabat opened ArRum, an Islamic restaurant/members` bar/ cultural centre/social club in Clerkenwell. Nijabat, a 31-year-old former barrister and management consultant from Walthamstow, originally conceived ArRum as a meeting place and networking venue for professional first- and second-generation London Muslims. But it has also become a focal point for many of London`s Muslim converts.

It is easy to see why. On any work evening, a mixed bag of middle-aged Pakistani men, young couples (some Muslim, some curious non-Muslim), kids and white British converts chat and tuck into halal `fusion` food. While the club promotes Islamic culture, the vibe is a Hempel temple of inner calm. Sufi wailing calms the nerves, while the bar specialises in healthy juices.

For the new converts I spoke to, ArRum is a place to meet other Muslims and somewhere to bring non-Muslim friends and introduce them to Islam in a way that doesn`t scare them.

ArRum accents Islam`s USP among the major faiths: its openness and lack of hierarchy. And Nijabat has realised that if there is an endemic suspicion of stuffy organised religion among the British (and increasingly, one suspects, second-generation British Muslims) there is great interest in `spirituality`, whatever that might mean.

`I think that the problem has not been with the substance of the major faiths, whatever they are, but a marketing defect,` argues Nijabat. `Everything we do here is about remembrance of God and Islam, but you can get that across in a cool way. I`m not saying anything that isn`t in the Koran, but you have to talk to people on their level.

`I`m beginning to see that there is a huge misunderstanding and a bridge that needs to be crossed between ethnic communities, host communities and spiritual communities, and I think we are making a contribution to that. You can get so hung up on the divisions and how different we are, but it is the same God for all of us. And we still feel that loss whether it is an American life or a Palestinian life. A lot of people are going through a period of soul-searching and that can only be a good thing.`

For many, that soul-searching has led them to Islam, not the Islam of the suicide bombers but mainstream Islam. And, as Joe Ahmed Dobson points out, ArRum and its new converts do not represent some kind of liberal IslamLite, a media-friendly dilution of the real thing. Dobson and the other new converts are orthodox, in the truest sense, and proud.

They are also part of a project that may help all parties see Islam in new ways. As Nijabat admits: `You can end up being quite defensive about it. And you can either get hung up about it or be proactive. Opening ArRum has helped me recognise that I can be British and Pakistani and a Muslim and a woman. And I`m not going to be a victim in any of this.`


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

London Evening Standard, March 15, 2002

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ZafarA#78 Arjun_M#20

Gujrat isnt as big a threat as the potential it has for India. Without being an alarmist, I ask that we be aware of those dangers. A Hindu India would be as fascist and barbaric as any other religous state. It is the nature of political religion to undermine and oppress other religions. If we dont keep the state and religion separate, we would go down the same drain. This is one lesson that the last two thousand years teach us.

Ref GhalibZaman #65

[WORTH REPEATING----------WORTH REPEATING-------WORTH REPEATING

What do Hindu Scholars say about Islam?]

Instead, ask the question: What does Islam say about other religions?

Recently, in a meeting held to protest the anti-conversion law passed in the state of Tamil Nadu in India (naturally, by non-Hindu religious/political personalities), Doctor Artist Leader quoted approvingly from some obscure dictionary influenced by Islamic invaders and said that the very word ``Hindu`` means thief.

You have a mind that is so closed that a single new thought cannot enter it yet you want the rest of the world to be open-minded.

What an irony!

PS my post #70
``If you want to make this Hindu-Muslim, I will need to dig out stuff on the Muslim angle in communalism and I don`t feel like doing so at this time``

Actually I did dig out some and post it #42 or #43(`90 Hyderabad riots).

Ref 12-Head #69

[If you had read it right I never said conversion of Muslim to Hindu is wrong.PROVIDED IT IS NOT COERCIVE & voluntary willingly & full consent of the muslim.

I also wonder why 140 million indian muslim defenitely will be receiving the benefits of BJP & majority uncomfortable pressure BUT WHY DO THEY STILL NOT CONVERT . ]

They do not get any benefits from converting to Hinduism. Even if jobs are given only to those whose name is Ramdas as opposed to Abdullah, there are not enough jobs for all the Ramdases in India.

On the other hand, the sultans of Delhi made sure that they gave govt jobs only to those named Khuda Bux or Inayat Khan.

Don`t attempt to transfer Islamist behavior to Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Jews, etc.

It won`t wash.

Ref Used-Car-Salesman #63

[GO TO THIS TALK BY INDIAN HISTORIAN TO BE EDUCATED

POLITICS IN INDIA
------------------------------------------------------

Webcast: Running Time: 1 hour, 32 minutes
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/events/replay.html?event_id=35]

Sheesh, why didn`t you tell us it was Romila Thapar who was speaking?

She hasn`t met a single Sultan she doesn`t like.

Far better to read Francois Gauthier`s columns or history books written by Muslim historians if you want to learn the truth.

Ref GhalibZaman #64

[Well said learned woman, well said!---------.
____________________________________________________________Persian Ellora, Tamil Medina
Renuka Narayanan]

Finally, you are learning the history of India.

Me, I learnt excerpts of ``Sirah Puranam`` by the poet Umar, excerpts from ``Them Pavani`` on the life of Jesus Christ by Veerama Munivar (Constantine Beschi) and poems on Lord Siva by Saint Manikkavachakar when I was a kid in school. They are examples of Tamil poetry, NOT religious material as far as our school systems are concerned.

Once you figure out that there are languages richer than Arabic (such as your own Punjabi or Sindhi) and reading books other than the Al-Kitab of your own religion (be it the Koran, Ramayana or the Bible) is not against Allah, Ram or Jehovah, you just might start enjoying literature.

re: namak haram

{PROVIDED IT IS NOT COERCIVE & voluntary willingly & full consent of the muslim. }

..if that was part of the criteria, you would not be a muslim right now....

Reply Arjun_M #20

``++
Five crore people will be deciding the fate of a billion Indians.
++

so if the bjp wins in gujrat, they`ll be killing muslims in bombay? as much as i would like modi prosecuted for gujrat, you lost me after the first line. ``

I think the logic goes like: violence in Gujarat polarises communities, with people voting by religious affiliation and with the majority giving the BJP their votes. Hmmm! It worked in Gujarat, let`s try it in Maharashtra...

Regards

Reply Urstruly #41

``this is also the face of a Muslim in Afghanistan; this is a face of a Muslim in Iraq; this is the face of a Muslim in Kashmir; this is the face of a Muslim in Chechnya; this is the face of a Muslim in Palestine. ……..this is the face of a Muslim. This is the face of Muslim of this world with tears in his eyes, his hands tied, begging and crying,``

...or the face of a Pandit in Kashmir, or an Ahmediya in West Punjab, or of...I mean, which strange universe do you inhabit that you can separate the misery of Muslims out from the identical misery of other people?

Farzana Versey
Thanks for asking for the right quote.
The whole of Vajpayee`s speech is available here, I request you to access the website and kindly read it in full.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?sid=1&fname=atal&fodname=20020420
`Who Started The Fire?`
Rough literal translation of the full text of the controversial speech given by the Prime Minister at BJP`s national executive meet at Goa recently.

(excerpt)
``...For us from Goa to Guwahati, it`s the same soil (maaTii ... the poet was rhyming it with Guwahati -- Ed). People living in this soil are one. We do not believe in religious fundamentalism. Today the nation is under threat from terrorism. Wherever I went, the rulers in power, elected rulers, complained that militant Islam is sowing thorns in their way.

Islam has two forms. One Islam is such that tolerates everyone, that preaches the path of truth, that teaches compassion and mercy (dayaa ... empathy?). But the Islam being taken for adopting militancy is such that does not have any space for tolerance. That goes on the slogans of jihad and dreams of casting the whole world in its mould.

You would be amazed to hear, and I too was amazed, that in Singapore some Al-qaida conspirators were caught. Singapore rulers could not even think that Al-qaida would be active in their country, that al-qaida would be conspiring in their country. 15-16 people were caught and the intelligence investigations are on so that the truth can be ascertained. This is happening in Indonesia. This is happening in Malaysia. Wherever there are such Muslims, they do not wish to live together, do not want to mix and mingle with others and instead of spreading their message peacefully, they want to spread their beliefs by terror, by fear, by threatening. The world has woken to this danger.

We have been fighting against terrorism for 20 years. The terrorists tried appropriating Jammu and Kashmir by violent means but we fought back. Jammu and Kashmir is a part of India and will remain a part of India. No other country`s dream shall be fulfilled. Now the nations of the world have realised what a big mistake they committed, how much they neglected and underplayed it. Now they are waking up, getting grouped together, forming an international coalition and agreement against terrorism...``

(end excerpt)

Vajpayee didnot make a general remark about all Muslims ``.. whereever there are Muslims, they..`` , on the contrary, he spoke of jihadi Islamists especially and then said about THEM ``..whereever there are SUCH Muslims ..``

However that corrected quote and his whole speech while innocuous in themselves donot let Vajpayee off. As many people said and even on chowk, it was not the speech itself but in what context he made it that is troubling. After such horrendous riots, it was required for his personal credibility as elected Prime Minister of a multireligious country to also condemn militant Hindutva and take a strong stand on the issue within his own party. His omission (and not his words, per se) was his failure here.

Here is Prem Shankar Jha on the speech. I sincerely request you to read his write up in full too.
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?sid=1&fname=Column%20Prem%20(F)&fodname=20020429
Right Said Fred (But)
What`s wrong with Vajpayee`s remarks wasn`t the content but the occasion. It legitimised the use of hatred as a political instrument.

(excerpt)
``...What was profoundly wrong with Vajpayee`s remarks was not their content but the occasion he chose to make them. Had he penned these in another set of `musings` or made them in a televised address to the nation, he might even have been lauded for his fair-mindedness and sagacity. But he made the remarks at a meeting of the bjp`s national executive when it had not merely backed Narendra Modi to the hilt, but supported his move, in the teeth of an earlier decision of the Vajpayee government itself to dissolve the Gujarat state assembly and hold a snap poll. Vajpayee made these remarks at a time when his home minister, L.K. Advani, was telling the BJP`s partners to confine their meddling to the central government of which they were a part and not poke their noses into the affairs of Gujarat which was ruled by the BJP and the BJP alone.

He did so at a time when BJP national executive members were jubilant at the thought of holding a snap poll, when hatred of Muslims was at its peak, and were convinced that it would win them 23 more seats in the state assembly than they would have otherwise won. In short, what Vajpayee managed to do was to legitimise the deliberate use of hatred as a political instrument, and to assert the absolute priority of a parochial state interest over the nation`s interest...``
(end excerpt)


If you want to make this Hindu-Muslim, I will need to dig out stuff on the Muslim angle in communalism and I don`t feel like doing so at this time. Take care and hope to keeping seeing you around!

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WORTH REPEATING----------WORTH REPEATING-------WORTH REPEATING


What do Hindu Scholars say about Islam?

Recently, we have seen false accusations made against Islam and Muslims in India and Kashmir. I would like to suggest everyone ignore these hate mongrels who will go to any length to cause dissention and animosity between Muslims and Non-Muslims. Let`s look at what some well respected Indians had to say about Islam, Muslim, and their prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him):
Mr. Mahatma Gandhi:

``Someone has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam -- Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood. The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded.``

And in ``Young India``, he wrote:

``I wanted to know the best of one who holds today`s undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind....I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet`s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life.``

Miss. Sarojini Naidu, Poetess, in Ideals of Islam:

``It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for in the mosque, when the minaret is sounded and the worshipers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, God alone is great.`` The great poetess of India continues, ``I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian and Indian and a Turk in London, it matters not that Egypt is the motherland of one and India is the motherland of another.``

Prof. Ramakrishna Rao, in ``Muhammad the Prophet of Islam``:

``The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes! There is Muhammad, the Prophet. There is Muhammad, the Warrior; Muhammad, the Businessman; Muhammad, the Statesman; Muhammad, the Orator; Muhammad, the Reformer; Muhammad, the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad, the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad, the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad, the Judge; Muhammad, the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero.`` ... Muhammad is the ``Perfect model for human life.``

#63 by Studebaker on December 13, 2002 4:30pm PT
Who were the Britishers to decide whether India be secular or Hindu?? They were also foreigners. And secularism does not exist in India, this is what Farzana says. And this is what Pakistan thinks. So, why stick to it. History shows things keep changing if they donot work.
I personally do not think that India should be a Hindu state or this state or that state. But even by staying secular, it does not get any credit but is rather bashed by neighbouring countries at slightest pretext.
Main thing is people should be happy and should get along well. If Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims get along well and feel they have that brotherhood between them, which they never feel for Hindu Indians or other Indians then it would be a very good idea if Indian Muslims could be settled in Pakistan if they want to. Most of them already have relatives there. Most of them feel very much at home there. Many of them feel they are not happy in India. Now Nepal is a Hindu state. Nothing wrong with that. I am sure there are people from other religions too in Nepal.
Come on Can’t Pakistan do this much for Indian Muslims? Of course Pakistani people think they can look after Indian Muslims better than India…so why not try it.

re: #41 by Urstruly
Very good. Now, let us see if you can convince your Supreme Whore to take this guy (whose photo you have been kind enough to paste on the chowk forum) into his domain. After all, Pak has better things to offer than secularism or democracy. Honor killings, blasphemy deaths: to name a few.
Sridhar

re: 12-head/namak haram

...why is the termite in your behind happy when there are conversions to islam but unhappy when there are conversions away from islam...what goes around comes around...deal with it...

Macaulay’s ghost might finally quit India and the shared spaces of our past may find light again.

Aameen, summ-e aameen.


Well said learned woman, well said!---------For the last 200 years it is also the barbaric US presence which is a threat to civilisation around the globe. The nations of traders and tradesmen must never ever be allowed to abandon their station in life.
____________________________________________________________Persian Ellora, Tamil Medina
Renuka Narayanan


With the ongoing demonisation of Islam, it’s entirely likely that most Indians are unaware of what the Prophet (SAW) says in Surah-e-Kafirun, ‘Lakum deenukum walyadeen’. To you your religion, to me, mine.

Nor do we know that the Muslim world has always had a separate name for Hindus: Ahl-e-Hunood—the people of the religion of Hind, denoting Sanatana Dharma.



In the 18th century, a fatwa was demanded from Hadrat Shah Waliullah Mohaddis Dehlavi, a spiritual authority respected all over the Islamic world. The issue was: what should Islam think of India?

The conclusive view of India that emerged in the Islamic world is worth knowing. By Muslim reckoning, it is neither Dar-us-Salam (an Islamic state) nor Dar-ul-Harab (where Islam is not free).

Since Islam is not the uniform rule of law here, India should technically be Dar-ul-Harab. But in all other respects that characterise an Islamic country, it is very much Dar-us-salam. The azaan is proclaimed aloud, there are no restrictions on namaaz or the Friday prayer, the hijab, beard and cap are freely worn.

So the fatwa was proclaimed that India could not be categorised by anybody, it was a unique entity. And so it remains in the Islamic world. As Maulana Syed Athar Hussain Dehlavi of the Anjuman-e-Minhaj-e-Rasool says: ‘India is India. It has its own identity’.

Everyone knows that young Mohammad bin Qasim’s attack on Sindh in 712 CE was the first Muslim military attack on India. What we may not know about however is the attack which was disallowed. In the time of Hadrat Umar the second Khalifa of Islam (634-644 CE), the Muslim ambassador was apparently killed by the Iranis.

The Sindh Raja sided with the Iranis. When the Muslims wanted to launch a punitive attack on Sindh, Hadrat Umar refused to allow it, saying there was no need.

As for the famous Abbasid ‘Caliph’ Haroun al-Rashid, how many of us would remotely suspect that when he fell seriously ill, he was cured by a Hindu vaid, Pandit Manik? When he recovered, the Khalifa appointed him the Head of the Department of Sanskrit Translation.

In fact, Arabic was the first language to take the Panchatantra from the original Sanskrit (Abdullah ibn-e-Makhfa’s work). Al-Rashid’s son, Al-Mamun, invited a pandit on permanent appointment to Baghdad university to expound Hindu mathematics.

Hence, around 825 CE, the great geographer-mathematician Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi wrote his world-changing book On Calculation With Hindu Numerals which went west in Latin translation.

In a recently published book Beyond Turk and Hindu, modern western scholars tell us that as far back as 1612, Rafi al’din Shirazi waxed eloquent over Ellora in his Tazkirat-al Muluk, a history of Indian and Persian dynasties composed in Bijapur.

Though a believing Muslim, he lamented the destruction of certain Hindu temples as an ‘offence against beauty’ and ‘God’ and assessed Ellora as a political, not religious monument.

An outstanding literary example meanwhile, is Umaru Pulavar, the 17th century Tamil poet, whose Sirah Puranam is modelled on the 9th century Tamil Ramayana by Kamban, the Iramavataram.

Just as Kamban, who had never been to Kosala, described the Tamil country instead, so did Umaru imagine Arabia in terms of Tamil Nadu, through voluptuous images. His ecstatic description of the wedding of Fatima and Ali in Medina, as scholar Vasudha Narayanan points out, was closely paralleled on Kamban’s description of Sita Kalyanam. Tamil Muslims called ‘Marakkayar’ trace their community to the time of the Prophet himself, to the influence of seafaring Arabs of old, and see themselves proudly as Tamils (they were vigorous participants in the Tamil resistance to Hindi).

Similarly the Tamil Sufi, Mastan Saipu, believed to be a 17th century itr seller, wrote spiritual paeans to Allah that are profoundly Muslim (All-pervasive is the Light of our Perfect Lord), yet harmonise with the Shaiva outpourings of Manikkavachagar (O Light without beginning or end).

If we disseminate the research of present-day scholars from India as well as those based in the US, Macaulay’s ghost might finally quit India and the shared spaces of our past may find light again.

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I am an Indian Hindu. If I study hard or try to do something good, I tell myself I have to bring India forward. I have to make sure that I bring a good name to Indian community. I never think ‘I have to bring Hindu community forward’ or ‘I have to serve Hindu community’. I say ‘I love India and I want to serve it’. Most of the times I don’t even remember I am a Hindu.

The Indian Muslims should also think like that (well many of them do I know but not most). They should not keep on thinking in terms of ‘Muslim community’, ‘we Muslims’. Should rather say ‘we Indians’. I know, it is hard for Muslims to think too much beyond their community because Islam lays emphasis on Muslim-brotherhood. But people have to make a choice between Indian-brotherhood and Muslim-brotherhood. India is one land, which has been secularly providing opportunities to all its citizens. And of course normal Muslims in India are serving their country like any other Indian.

Error: In my previous post I wrote `Indian Hindus like Farzana`..is obviously `Indian Muslims like Farzana`..

Some people think that making India a Hindu nation is a good idea after all becasue in any case some Indian Hindus like Farzana don`t trust Indian Hindus. She would prefer to cry on the shoulders of Pakistanis(this is the most hurting thing alomost a `desh droh`). But would Paksitan be ready to accomodate all the Indian muslims who might like to migrate to Paksitan. Yes, maybe Indian muslims would be happy in Pakistan. After all life is all about being happy. It happened at the time of Partition, my grandparents were told..``Hey..you are Hindus, get out of this part of India which would be called Paksitan from now on. Only muslims can live here`` So, let it happen again.

Pakistan is an Islamic state and so it has no respect for Hinduism but nobody raises any questions. So, let all Indian muslims be embraced by Paksitan (will they? can anyone tell me?)

If being secular, if providing all the rights to various communities did not help, then let India be a Hindu country once more, like it was for thousands of years before outsiders came and converted the local people.

[ #50 by AAmir on December 13, 2002 9:04am PT]
[ #58 by einsteinwallah on December 13, 2002 11:34am PT]

Yes AAmir, for once you are right. It seems that the report you quoted (which I am reproducing below), does contain very categoric and credible information about violent activities Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram. I eat my words in post #58. I did search on web and I found more information about this unholy nexus between hindu jihadis and this organisation. India is going to be in more and more trouble if this continues.

To be frank I do not like Christian or Islamic conversion and on same arguments reconversion back into Hinduism. They remain where they were to begin with. If they were illiterate they remain that, if they were superstitious they remain that. Those who convert are often shown a fantasy image of paradise that awaits them when they convert. This is nothing but escapism.

That is why I would call such conversion as subversive. They give false hopes. And sometimes these convertees are told that they are now equal with other hindus. Lacking in any real skills in negotiating their rights first they are disowned by thier vanavasi neighbours and then by so-called high caste people who see their conversion as challenge.

-ew

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Indian charity in UK funded Guj Hindu extremist groups: Report

Vijay Dutt

London, December 13

The British TV network Channel 4 News, in an investigative report, has alleged that a high-profile Indian charity group SEWA International has been raising funds for extreme Hindu groups involved in Gujrat massacre in the name of riot victims.

SEWA, which has been praised even by Prince Charles and backed by eminent British Asians, ``has been raising funds for extreme Hindu groups involved in the massacre,`` the channel alleged in the special report telecast on the eve of Gujarat polls.

``We show that some of its donations are channelled directly to Hindu fundamentalists in India,`` it said.

Jonathan Miller was named as the reporter on unsuspecting help for violence in India. He described a meet in west London of ``young Hindus attending a local branch of the RSS, India`s biggest Hindu nationalist group. Its British arm, the HSS, is a charity registered here for nearly 30 years. Every week across Britain there are 72 meetings like this one.``

One Rahul Deolia told him, ``As most ethnic minority youngsters will tell you it`s important to know who you are and where you come from in order to face the rest of society that`s the way it is and that`s how HSS has helped me coming to shakha develop a sense of identity.``

But the reporter asked the question is the HSS really just a watered down version of this?

Up to 60 British volunteers, like Rahul, come to India for training every year on funds raised by the HSS charity.

Critics express concern about the organisation`s ideology.

But, Lord Desai who is with the London School of Economics says on the programme, ``The RSS is like a fascist youth movement like black shirts or something like that but perhaps with deeper roots because the RSS has been there for 75 years plus. ``

In that time the RSS has evolved a unique and some say potentially lethal philosophy.

Chetan Bhatt of the Goldsmith College in London opined: ``The core ideas of the RSS are based on an ideology called Hindutva or Hindu nationalism. This was an idea formed in the 1920s and at the root of it is the idea that India has to be an exclusive nation state, where minorities must demonstrate unconditional love and obedience to the nation.

Otherwise they will be converted forcibly or removed. So for example one popular Hindutva slogan is that Muslims in India have only two places: Pakistan or kabristan (graveyard).

Page 2
------

But, PV Ruperlia, Secretary HSS (UK) countered: ``It boils up my blood. Hindus in India have gone through a period of humiliating subjugation for the past seven hundred years, we are prepared to forgive for that we can not forget it.``

The report alleged that the ``Hindu nationalist backlash was immediate (to Godhra incident), in Gujarat more than 2,000 Muslims were killed and several hundred thousand displaced, in the worst communal disturbance since partition.

Several inquiries including one by the British High Commission saw the hand of the RSS and its associated organisations behind the violence.

Back in Britain, Channel Four News has learned how special branch responded to the Gujarat violence: they started a watching brief on the HSS.

In addition, the charity commission were alerted to allegations that money raised for the HSS in Britain might fund communal violence in India.

In September they announced a formal investigation into the Leicester-based charity. This is focusing on Sewa International, the HSS`s welfare and relief arm, which raises millions for Indian emergencies and development.

Simon Gillespie, director of operations, Charity Commission, said: ``Our concern is to make sure that any charity directs its funds properly to that charitable cause to make sure that they are not misleading donors in the process so we want to make sure there`s a very clear line between the money given here in the UK and the needy people in Gujarat.``

It was claimed that for months Channel Four News had been investigating

The activities of the HSS, how they raise money and what they do with it. Their appeal for earthquake victims in Gujarat last year raised more than £4-million and could hardly have been more high-profile.

``It earned the praise of the Prince of Wales whose office wrote that `the Prince continues to be most impressed by the excellent work being done by SEWA International (and sends his best wishes to all the staff and volunteers).``

SEWA recruited four peers as patrons, including President of the Liberal Democrat Party Lord Dholakia; and Cabinet minister Paul Boateng, who attended a fund-raising event.

Many donors, the report alleged, have been unaware that SEWA International was part of the HSS. That`s because SEWA is not actually a registered charity, it simply borrows the HSS charity registration number.

Lord Adam Patel who was one of the patrons of the appeal for earthquake victims, seems to feel that he has been deceived. ``Well, I was absolutely shocked. They were involved directly or indirectly in many communal riots, they were involved in the destruction of the Ayodhya mosque. So I said what`s going on? Have I lent my name to the wrong organisation?``

Asked by Channel 4 News: ``Does it appear they have indeed done good work,`` Lord Adam Patel responded: ``If they (SEWA) have I congratulate them, but I don`t approve of their association.``

In August, Lord Patel allegedly wrote a letter demanding details of SEWA`s links to Hindu nationalist groups in India. When he did not receive answers, he resigned.

Page 3
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The Channel 4 raised the question, ``So just what is the money raised by SEWA used for in India? And what is its connection with SEWA`s parent organisation the HSS and the extremist activities of the RSS in India?

It said: `` We logged on to the SEWA International website. You can make a donation by credit card. Unless you specify a particular cause, SEWA will then pass your money on to any one of a whole host of projects they support in India no doubt many of them good works.

``But one of the most high-profile is the Kalyan Ashram, a project to help the poorest of the poor in India, the tribal people. The Indian project`s website says it`s `dedicated to weaning` tribal people `away from the evil influence of foreign missionaries and anti-national forces`.``

The Channel then alleged, ``We heard about a campaign by Kalyan Ashram to convert thousands of tribal people to Hinduism in Gujarat. The conversion campaign started in 1997, the year in which accounts filed with the Charity Commission show SEWA International began funding Kalyan Ashram.``

Chetan Bhatt added, ``The activities of individuals led to systematic violence for example attacks on churches the burning down of churches in towards the end of 1988 and in 1999, increased violence and hostility towards the Christian population in Gujarat.``

The HSS when asked about this by the Channel provided a statement from Kalyan Ashram in Gujarat which said: ``Kalyan Ashram has never destroyed any Places of worship.``

The TV reporter then wanted to find out whether money given by British donors to SEWA International, ``apparently to help the poor in India, could actually end up funding sectarian violence there``. It sent a team to Gujarat to find out.

There, the team alleges to have heard allegations that ``sectarian violence by Kalyan Ashram was still going on``. The team went to the Baroda region of Gujarat which was reportedly scene of some of the worst violence. The TV report said: ``Fifty-six people were killed here in just a few days, hundreds more injured, 29 mosques were destroyed, thousands were driven from their homes.

Page 4
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The Channel report said that a Hindu activist who had witnessed Kalyan Ashram operations at first hand gave it the inside story on the riots. ``We`ve had to protect his identity. He told us the local Kalyan Ashram boss had organised the attacks in Mohammed Haji `s area. He allegedly threatened villagers threatened that if they didn`t join in provoking the Muslims and burning them, they would also be treated like Muslims and burnt.

``And he said the government is on our side, nothing will happen to you. So the Kalyan Ashram activists gave the villagers bows and arrows and revolvers and such arms.``

But the report admitted that when the Channel 4 team went to the Ashram boss` home village his family said he was on the run from the police. The police accuse him of leading a mob of 2,000 tribal people in another big attack.

The retired Indian Supreme Court Judge PB Sawant who has been hearing evidence for an independent tribunal on the Gujarat violence is quoted saying : ``The organisation called Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram through which the tribals are being indoctrinated into communal philosophy was roped in and all those who were trained there were also enrolled for violence.``

But, the president of Kalyan Ashram in Gujarat denied his organisation was involved in violence. He also denied any dealings with the HSS and even, at first, with SEWA International.

To all…and AzadMunna (who you??), Layman (Shourie is different, don’t you think?), godot, pmishra, Anil, roohi (yesh, big mishtaek, but thinking whyfor not mix all gods…lhuvlyy coketail na?? Like Peena ko lada!), and nasahsaab (need those blessings)…thanks for reading ((at least a few lines in some cases!) and responding.

Have only been able to glance at the later replies and the warm welcomes and cold vibes...the latter as predictable as they accuse me of being. Well...
-------


Hi samina (good to see you again), ana (come again??dobara??!! As for courage…”Main maan bhi loon kabhi haar, tu maane na”…shukria for having confidence in meeeeeee), temporal (changed Chowk?? Arre, janitor tau badal sakte the…and yes, need all the rraahhs…here and elsewhere. As for your note to Chowk eds about length…do you think they too are into appeasing Indian Muslims?? ;)

Love,
Farzana

For starters, there is nothing “disjointed” about this article, yes ARTICLE…I have clearly stated that these are already published profiles (carried separately) about the key players, and have demarcated them accordingly. They are not the only people involved, but I used those I wrote about in an Indian newspaper. And I do not think any citizen expecting answers is a big deal. Those who consider that an honour suffer from deep insecurity. The larger picture is invariably made up of small issues.

I am surprised that certain questions have been raised about what are clearly digs at quotes made by these gentleman featured in the article. The apology from the PM…this was at a time when he had made it clear where his priorities lay (visiting the refugee camps a month later) and yet, Muslims were being taunted for not expressing any remorse about Godhra and certain ‘progressive’ Hindus were going to town with their apologies and feeling of shame about Gujarat. I was merely nailing the person who heads my government.

Re: the cow, how I wish people used their memory before rushing to comment. Narendra Modi had been talking about how Sonia Gandhi was unconcerned about issues like cow protection. So…

And, Veeresh, where did this one come from: “If out of the churn evolves, say,
emancipation of women otherwise forced to live like sub-humans, why do you object?” Huh??

And Sadna, if you say I have misquoted the PM could you point out which quote it is, and what is the right one, and the source of your information? I have mentioned exactly what I read in the media, and since I do not have any other access, this shall be my source.

Yes, I agree with you about the ‘human’ angle, but even if we were to avoid the Hindu-Muslim wrangle, it just will not work. The movement has gathered too much momentum. Modi does not need us to use it; it has been there since 1992-93 when Advani and company started the fire and provided the fuel.

Pankaj, what do you mean by “You dont need to stoop to the level of innuendos and baseless aspersions for making what is a perfectly just case”? You decide what is just and you decide how it must be dealt with and expressed? I have never flaunted myself as a “saviour”, and on what grounds do you raise questions about my honesty and sincerity? Having faith in the EC is one thing, but rigging has been a norm. Togadia has accused the EC because his name was not in the voters’ list, so he may find the process unjust…there can be several other reasons. Many reports and editorials have said that irrespective of the poll results, Hindutva has seeped in too deeply after Gujarat.

About the pillars (I take Sadna’s point), please note I followed it up with ‘preservation of culture’ in the letter to Modi. There is a swipe (you understand those, don’t you?) at what is the ‘pillar’ of our country…About Urdu chits…again, are you not aware that no one was brought in to translate them immediately and time was wasted? A swipe that was too…I know people in Gujarat can read Urdu…About dry fruits…geez, thanks for the info about carbohydrates…that was said in humour…I can’t believe this!

And before we pat ourselves regarding our democracy in the face of dictatorships and pseudo-dictatorships, do you seriously believe we are not one of these? Only because our Constitution declares something, must we turn a blind eye to the reality around us? And why do we need to compare ourselves to others? Who cares what happens in Papua New Guinea or wherever when we have to deal with our own backyard?

About the goof-up of Ravana’s tail instead of Hanuman’s, I had removed it before sending the print version after realising it (it wasn’t ignorance here, but the image of Modi as Ravana was occupying my mind), but while posting it at Chowk I used the unchanged hard copy. Anyway, thanks to all those who pointed it out. I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway.

And I do not have to reiterate about the rural, semi-rural areas I have visited to prove any point. I repeat, I have not mentioned a “wave”; I said, “India today is clay in the hands of the saffron brigade.” A wave has its own ebb and flow but clay is static until moulded.

(PS: The inevitable did happen. After this series of ‘hits’, I was asked to go slow on “politics and religion”. The reason cited was possible legal hassles.)

[ #50 by AAmir on December 13, 2002 9:04am PT
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_119775,0008.htm
Indian charity in UK funded Guj Hindu extremist groups: Report
Vijay Dutt
London, December 13

The British TV network Channel 4 News, in an investigative report, has alleged that a high-profile Indian charity group SEWA International has been raising funds for extreme Hindu groups involved in Gujrat massacre in the name of riot victims.

SEWA, which has been praised even by Prince Charles and backed by eminent British Asians, ``has been raising funds for extreme Hindu groups involved in the massacre,`` the channel alleged in the special report telecast on the eve of Gujarat polls. ]

Let me just provide 2 paragraphs from this 4 page story:

Chetan Bhatt added, ``The activities of individuals led to systematic violence for example attacks on churches the burning down of churches in towards the end of 1988 and in 1999, increased violence and hostility towards the Christian population in Gujarat.``

The HSS when asked about this by the Channel provided a statement from Kalyan Ashram in Gujarat which said: ``Kalyan Ashram has never destroyed any Places of worship.``

If there is a muslim organisation is there then surely it would operate a school where they will teach Islam. That does not make the school jihadic. I am afraid you will have to produce more direct evidence of preaching of hatred and using kids at Kalyan Ashram for violence (I did not read these pages fully - if I read and find something I will write more). Fact is there is no such evidence. Kalyan Ashram is guilty by association. SEWA ia also guilty by association. India is a free country. A christian missionary can operate a school where they preach their religion. Since we do not have Pope and a religion organised in the manner of so many Christian churches, we have to have some organisation doing good work of educating these tribals. Christians convert and then ask convertee to throw away idols and artwork representing their supposedly hindu Gods. There is no evidence that SEWA or Kalyan Ashram is doing that. A tribal is free to hold on to his old faith. Worst proselytizing hindus would do is vegetarianise their eating habits or asking them to give up beef. This also I doubt. I do not think come into these tribals` homes to check what food they are eating. However certainly the education they recieve must be influencing change in this matters. Would there be a Islamic school where proscription against pork would not so much as be even mentioned?

-ew

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Urstruly
You`re what happens when folks worship a prophet instead of The Creator, Allah. You deliver unprovoked sucker punches then cry like babies when the favor`s returned. Islam needs no `protection` from you nor anyone else`s jehadi/fatwah mentality. It stands on the mercy of Allah - not prophets.
You are a cultural problem. You`re raised in a one-sidedly patriarchal system which coddles and allows baby boys to believe they are the center of the universe. Mix it with religion, and you have grown men/juveniles believing they hold the righteous Sword of God replete with tantrums and (self) destruction. Go play in traffic.

Urstruly # 41 . . . that is the face of a human being in great distress . . . there happens to be a photograph taken a few days later of the same human being, he survived an obviously dangerous situation, and bears witness to the attempts of democracy and secularism to try to fix matters.

Where does it portray anything about Muslims?

I would also easily list over 2 dozen countries in where leave alone the photographed, we would have seen the photographer being killed for taking such a photo.

So where does being a Muslim impact the scenario so much?

messages on toi gujrat board:

Indiatimes Id:ska_iit
After going through all the comments I feel no one can go against what BJP is doing.. Thisis the party who stand for Hindustanis...this include all the religion...and exclude all the people who betray our Motherland... And the parties who talk about secularism are most dengerous for us.. they devide the people for their votes... why extra support for some people based on there cast religion etc.. they care for their own interest....Support India and through out all the traitors...whoever they are....
Friday, December 13, 2002 09:31:16 am


Indiatimes Id:sharma_rrs
Like it or not, BJP will get around 120 seats. All nonsense on secularism will have to give way to sense even though bitter to some.
Friday, December 13, 2002 08:51:05 am


Indiatimes Id:jatin_joshipura2000
i think muslim leadership has mada a huge error by asking muslims to vote for congress in large numbers.that forced us(gujaratis) to vote for BJP.so before lecturing us on secularism self proclaimed champion should rebuke muslim leadership for polarising society further on communal lines
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:40:44 pm

Indiatimes Id:jay_shah73
Go BJP Go!!! BJP is the one who can run this country better. India only got her place in world`s powerful nations in last 5 years.
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:37:14 pm


Indiatimes Id:soubhiks
This is not entirely suprising ! Afterall polarising the voters through riots has to have some benefits. The point we have to remember is, in a democracy the so-called `MAJORITY` is Not everything ! Just because Hindus have a social or electoral majority, does not mean they can do anything they want. We have to protect the rights & choices of minorities which includes Muslims,Christians,Sikhs,Jainsand all.
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:36:09 pm


Indiatimes Id:theglobalgaint
May be the secularism is dying but when still in the 21st century you have Mondal commission,conversion by Christiaan organisation,Terrorism by muslim fundamentalist- As a Hindu whoes trying to save my identity in a country which accepted all religions ,I would vote for BJP or RSS
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:34:51 pm


Indiatimes Id:taxol99
cheers modi!! not end to secularism, its an end to ``psuedo-secularism`` if at all anything! sudhir joshi, NJ
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:30:37 pm


Indiatimes Id:csgumtala
exit polls are not always true.if bjp wins ,it will be a black day in the democratic history of india
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:29:42 pm


Indiatimes Id:my_comment
This is no defeat of secularism. Secularism is not about keeping the minorities or backward classes happy. All these seculars when they were in power they have introduced many ``reforms`` in favour of minorities or backward classes due to which nation has beared an irreparable loss. This has been the root cause of brain drain in india.Ofcourse, whatever happened in gujarat riots was a shame but helding BJP responsible for the riots is absolutely wrong.
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:22:09 pm


Indiatimes Id:amarpatel911
What a great day for Gujarat! What a great day for India! The BJP will surely finish cleaning up Gujarat in the next 5 years.
Thursday, December 12, 2002 09:18:56 pm


Indiatimes Id:nishant.1976
I dont agree with the commentors here. I think no body can judge whether its a defeat or win for secularism since the people come out and vote for one particular party. Democracy is all about people and people decide who they should chose. If certain people think this is a defeat of secularism then they are undermining the will of people of Gujarat and no one has a moral right do to that except people of Gujarat.

#41 Urstruly

Good job! Your spiritual brothers like Narendra Modi and Ashok Singhal would be proud of you. Just like you they believe in the use of grievance, human loss and sorrow to further a hate-filled future. Like vultures scanning a neighborhood for carrion to feast on, you and your ``brothers`` fly around looking for injury and grievance to manipulate and exploit. And to generate more hatred and violence. Shahbash !

You`re what happens when folks worship a prophet instead of The Creator, Allah. You idiots deliver unprovoked sucker punches then cry like babies when the favor`s returned. Islam needs no `protection` from you nor anyone else`s jehadi/fatwah mentality. It stands on the mercy of Allah - not prophets.
You are a cultural problem. You`re raised in a one-sidedly patriarchal system which coddles and allows baby boys to believe they are the center of the universe. Mix it with religion, and you have grown men/juveniles believing they hold the righteous Sword of God replete with tantrums and (self) destruction. Go play in traffic.

Urstruly #41
Thanks for posting that but are you saying India should stop trying to be secular and become a religious state? Are you saying India should stop trying to improve on the democracy front and become a dictatorship?

What are you saying except that you hate nonMuslim Indians? How are you different from those who were attacking that man and those who cover up for those attackers?

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[ #41 by Urstruly on December 13, 2002 6:09am PT

...
But if you have eyes and ears and you still have your cognitive abilities intact, and you have just one drop of shame left in your eyes, you will see that this is not the face of a Muslim from Gujrat; this is also the face of a Muslim in Afghanistan; this is a face of a Muslim in Iraq; this is the face of a Muslim in Kashmir; this is the face of a Muslim in Chechnya; this is the face of a Muslim in Palestine. ……..this is the face of a Muslim. This is the face of Muslim of this world with tears in his eyes, his hands tied, begging and crying, saying that save me from your Democracy…..save me from your Secularism. This is the face of a human being.

You forgot a Muslim from Iran. Following link will take you to his photo:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38519000/jpg/_38519349_iranagh300.jpg

If you are interested in the news story where above photo appears, here it is:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2518835.stm

[ #40 by Trillium on December 13, 2002 6:09am PT
It`s never long enough between F.V. heavy-handed contributions to Chowk. She`s done the impossible yet again! She`s nailed the metaphorical Jello to the wall... and, as usual, it ceases to be Jello and becomes a wall of autographed nails. `Farzana-The-Hammer` strikes again... ]

`Farzana-The-Hammer`? You mean she strikes her head on the wall?

[ #39 by harimau on December 13, 2002 6:09am PT
So, Farzana, sweetheart, you are back!

...

Do you think it is blasphemous that a miracle like locking the doors from outside occurs but the incendiary used is kerosene, something that is not mentioned in Al-Kitab? Or did Allah specifically ensure that this particular batch of kerosene was refined from oil imported from Saudi Arabia? ]

After striking head on wall may be she is now deaf or has developed amnesia or both. She is not answering.

-ew

re: #41 Urstruly

SAVE US FROM YOUR JEHAD

In the current campaign in Gujarat, the most powerful opponent of BJP, the Congress was repeatedly asked about its own communal record.

Unfortunately for those who want to see the Cong defeat the BJP(including myself), the cat is out of the bag that the Congress in association with some groups has been using the politics of riots for a long time in many locations in the country.

This weakens the Congress assertions that they are a better party than the BJP on the communal angle. In my personal view, the Congress is `better` because it doesnot preach hatred though it incites it behind the scenes, the BJP is worse because it makes an ideology out of hatred and propagates it without shame. But this may not be a good enough distinction for all voters or citizens on the communal angle.

To counter the Hindutva-wadis raw communalism, its important to understand their opponents` communal record too.

For example, the Hyderabad `90 when 300-odd people were killed( including new born babies as a friend who lived in Old City told me). I searched around and came across this internet account of the anatomy of a riot, Congress style.

(quoting from a internet discussion group in 1990)
``..
From a friend in Andhra Prabha/Indian Express, this is what I heard about the trouble in Hyderabad:

Some prominent leaders in the ruling Congress(i), (N. Janardhan Reddy, Rajasekhara reddy in particular) want the sitting chief minister Chenna Reddy to go. They have been making a lot of noise about this for a while. Finally last week, Cong(i) president Rajiv Gandhi has sent a fact finding mission to Hyderabad: to find out how strong is the MLA support to Chenna Reddy. The NJR&RR faction wanted to prove to thefact finders that Chenna Reddy is totally incompetent to rule the state. The 300 odd people who are dead in the last week`s riots are just victims of this political game of the congress(i).

The actual sequence of events:
- Cong(i) anti-chenna reddy leaders (including N. Bhaskara rao) meet with Majlis Ittehadul Muslimeen leaders for unknown reasons.
- Babri Masjid action committiee leaders give anti-Hindu speeches at a rally in Charminar. (Note: BMAC is fully manned by the Majlis party members).
- Local BJP goons attacked BMAC leaders houses.
- Cong(i) leaders import goondas from Rayal seema
- The Majlis members (who by default are goondas) and Cong(i) imported goondas go on murdering spree for four days before the Army was called in.
- The cong(i) fact finding team returns to Delhi with as yet undosclosed verdict on Chenna Reddy.


As for hateful Hindu-Muslim speech, this is one more reason I say, donot add to it.
http://www.indolink.com/Book/book27.html
THE COLORS OF VIOLENCE Cultural Identities, Religion, and Conflict
by: Sudhir Kakar

Among the most revealing sections of The Colors of Violence are his analyses of the speeches of two typical demagogues, one from each community. Ubedullah Khan Azmi, a member of Parliament, and secretary of the Muslim Personal Law Conference, said: ``...And you [Hindus] raise slogans about Muslim loyalty. Have you ever looked at your own face in the mirror? It was the believers in the Qur`an who taught you the graces of life, taught you how to eat and drink. All you had before us were tomatoes and potatoes. What did you have? We brought jasmine, we brought frangipani. We gave the Taj Mahal, we gave the Red Fort. India was made India by us. We have lived here for eight hundred years and we made India shine.... Our personal law is being proscribed, our community`s very way of life is being restricted. Beware, history may repeat itself. Atal Behari Vajpayee may have to read the kalma [i.e., convert to Islam]....``


Kakar also analyzes the speech of a typical Hindu demagogue. Sadhavi Rithambra, a young Punjabi Hindu, she is a charismatic speaker for the``Hindutva`` cause. In her speech after the Hyderabad riots, she said: ``I have come to the Hindus of Bhagyanagar [Hyderabad] with a message...We have never said, `O. World! Believe in our Upanishads, Believe in our Gita. Otherwise you are an infidel and by cutting off the head of an infidel one gains paradise.` Our sentiments are not so low. They are not narrow-minded. They are not dirty. We see the world as our family.... In Kashmir, the Hindu was a minority and was hounded out of the valley. Slogans of `long live Pakistan` were carved with red hot iron rods on the thighs of our Hindu daughters. Try to feel the unhappiness and the pain of the Hindu who became a refugee in his own country.... What is this impartiality toward all religions where the mullahs get the moneybags and Hindus the bullets? We also want religious impartiality but not of the kind where only Hindus are oppressed....People say there should be Hindu-Muslim unity. Leave the structure of the Babri mosque undisturbed. I say, `Then let`s have this unity in case of the Jama masjid too. Break half of it and construct a temple. Hindus and Muslims will then come together.` ``

(end quotes)

One BJP participant on BBC`s Question Time pointed out that if people voted on religious lines, Congress would get only 10% of the vote in Gujarat and BJP would get the rest. Its obvious people donot vote on religious lines, its political parties that try to swing votes through playing up religious differences. For us to eliminate the politics of hatred and to defeat the Modi agenda two things need to happen

1. the Congress and its (occasionally Muslim) associates too eventually need to give answers.

2. And its for the rest of us not play into their hands. Post-Godhra was horrific, Godhra was also horrific. Violence and hate by anyone is horrific. For those who believe in justice and security of all Indians irrespective of religion, to be making Hindu-Muslim distinctions is to make the above demagogues, the leaders of the dialogue.

Re Advani
He doesnot have a halo for saying Hey Ram. IMO the reason he is not PM already is because he has demonstrated that he thinks as you say nicely `out of a mental suitcase`.

The problem is Ms Gandhi also has a regular housewifely suitcase which however is rather empty politically and perhaps cognitively. She is a creature of her scriptwriters to some extent. What if it comes down to a contest between the two?? Something like the contest between Modi and Waghela, the overt communalist vs the lapsed communalist, we will have the smallminded Advani with a long political career and the small minded Sonia Gandhi with none. Scary!!

We have to prepare for that day by changing the terms on which politics is carried out by both of them. Force them to sit together on a All Party Parliamentary Committee to End Communal and Political Violence for a start!!.


Re KPS Gill
Like Vajpayee, you mix too many issues. His past record relevant to Gujarat was of effectiveness. Better to nail him down on that, what he has or hasnot done for the situation in Gujarat.

Also, he might have had some effect. For instance the following arrests. The progress and efficacy of these arrests have to be monitored. Especially if the BJP comes back to power, these people may be allowed to go scot free. Analysing Gill`s personality is IMO less important:

http://www.newsindia-times.com/2002/06/07/india-roits.html

Romair #18:
``But I still cannot understand the following:
``Why are all these people now so surprised at how the BJP is handling the Indian Muslims, when it mentioned, years ago, in a straight forward manner in its own manifesto that this is exactly what it was going to do?
``India, unlike Pakistan, is not a feudal society, and its people are far more liberated when it comes to opportunities for selecting their leaders. Blaming Modi, Vajpayee and Advani only is not correct. The blame for whatever is being done by the BJP needs to placed on the people who vote(d) for them. After all, BJP is doing exactly what it promised its voters it would do. If anything, it has actually watered down its stance due to the NDA, in comparison to what it said it would do in its manifesto.``
Well, afaik, BJP did not promise in its manifesto that it would create riots or kill muslims! Voters do not elect parties to break the law, so do not blame the voters. Unfortunately, in most elections, the choice for the conscentious voter is amongst communalism, corruption and casteism.

Farzana,
``Be sure of one thing: these elections will be rigged, and the winner will be the party that is better at booth-capturing, horse-trading and monkeying around.``
With a statement like this, do you still wonder why intelligent readers disagree with your writing?

So, Farzana, sweetheart, you are back!

I suppose you went on some long investigative trip to Gujarat for the last several months so that you can write articles which unfortunately only evoke disheartening feedback.

Did you -- or any of those journalists who have been decrying the BJP -- ever find out what happened to the Muslim tea vendor`s daughter who was kidnapped at Godhra? Did she perish in the fire in the train? Or, did Allah safely retrieve the one True Believer from the clutches of the Infidels?

Did the angel Gibreel lock the doors of that compartment carrying the kaffir pilgrims from outside for their sin of singing bhajans in praise of a false God, and an idol at that? Do you think it is blasphemous that a miracle like locking the doors from outside occurs but the incendiary used is kerosene, something that is not mentioned in Al-Kitab? Or did Allah specifically ensure that this particular batch of kerosene was refined from oil imported from Saudi Arabia?

Exactly how many rupees and paise did these thugs owe the Muslim vendor? I am asking so that we can divide that by 59 and find out what is the value of a Hindu life in a Hindu-majority country. Do you think it would be higher or lower than in a Muslim-majority country or when Delhi was ruled by Muslim sultans?

You have had several months to find out what happened at Godhra, why it happened and how it happened. When you write a truthful article about that, the feedback won`t be disheartening.

It`s never long enough between F.V. heavy-handed contributions to Chowk. She`s done the impossible yet again! She`s nailed the metaphorical Jello to the wall... and, as usual, it ceases to be Jello and becomes a wall of autographed nails. `Farzana-The-Hammer` strikes again...

SAVE ME FROM YOUR DEMOCRACY




Look at this face……..look hard….and try to imagine your face in its place. This is the face of a man who is crying and begging for his life but he knows very well that he is about to die…..a horrible death……..a punishing death……a punishment that only Divinity has reserved for Himself. This is the face of a sacrificial lamb, who is bleating its cries of pain for the last time at the altar. And the altar is that of Democracy and Secularism. This is not the face of a man, this is the face of ultimate desperation incarnated in human form.

It is a day of ultimate shame for humanity when people are left with no shame using the words Election and Gujarat in the same sentence. Elections? Elections my ass! Election of whom? That who can murder the most Muslims in least amount of time? Elections? Election of whom? That who can get away with the murder in broad daylight and still claim to be democratic and secular? So much pain….so much suffering….why doesn`t God just takes away our sense of seeing, hearing, and understanding for He makes us crush under the unbearable weight of our own conscience. Why He doesn`t make us just like them; heartless and cold, those who have no shame looking into the eyes of this man and saying the words ``democracy`` and ``secularism``.

But if you have eyes and ears and you still have your cognitive abilities intact, and you have just one drop of shame left in your eyes, you will see that this is not the face of a Muslim from Gujrat; this is also the face of a Muslim in Afghanistan; this is a face of a Muslim in Iraq; this is the face of a Muslim in Kashmir; this is the face of a Muslim in Chechnya; this is the face of a Muslim in Palestine. ……..this is the face of a Muslim. This is the face of Muslim of this world with tears in his eyes, his hands tied, begging and crying, saying that save me from your Democracy…..save me from your Secularism. This is the face of a human being.

re:#17 by Pankaj
Pankaj,
This writer treads the same beaten track, like a broken gramaphone record. Her articles have the same theme. She wil usually start with accusations against majority community, then try to take on the establishment itself and end up discrediting the majority community. She usually has no solutions to offer. In the past, she had displayed a ``whining`` streak, thankfully absent in this piece. There is nothing much to commend about this article.
The last para ``Be sure of one thing: these elections will be rigged, and the winner will be the party that is better at booth-capturing, horse-trading and monkeying around....`` says something about the state of author`s mind. Here, the author, while taking advantage of the freedom the system provides, does not seem to appreciate what goes to make the system free. As you rightly said, elections in India have been largely free and transparent. We can often see it down south where BJP gets thrashed regularly (along with Congess) in all elections (local parties are the prime players there). BJP has not done well in past 2 years in any of the state elections. Hence, this new expt with hindutva and polarisation of votes.
Election Commission is an autonomous body. However, it can function only if election frauds are brought to the notice of the commission. Press plays a great role here. One wonders what the author`s contribution has been in this regard. Has she covered the election in Gujarat? Did she sees any rigging? If so, what did she, as a journalist, do about it. As Mao tse Tung crudely put it ``a loud fart is better than a long speech``.
Sridhar

#18 by Romair
``If the BJP wins, would it indicate that India wants to hold on to Hinduvta, if not in power, at least in opposition?``
Enlighten me on the above sentence, Sherlock. Even a village idiot knows India is not a homogenous entity. Gujarat may be polarised but TN, Kerala, Karnataka, MP etc do not feel any compulsion to follow suit.
The only thing a win by Modi will do is to justify Hindutva as a ``vote getting`` theme in future elections. This will be fiercely opposed in other states. Remember, BJP holds power only in 3 or 4 of the 29 odd states in the Indian union, a pathetic performance indeed!
Hence, also the reason for this new expt in which the party heavyweights like ABV, LKA are acting like innocent bystanders pretending like they are not entirely happy with what Modi is doing but in reality waiting with bated breaths to see if this new expt succeeds. If it does, it will change the way BJP will think in future (i say BJP and not India; the 2 or not the same). If it fails, Modi will be shown the door and BJP will go back to its moderate ways. Afterall, ABV is still regarded a moderate (at least he pretends to be so).
Sridhar

Farzana,

Your article is but a cantankerous tirade.
Logic is substituted with volcanic emotions.
Sarcasm and satire alone do not make a Voltaire.
Sarcasm without class is garbage nevertheless.


Significantly insignificant,

Quantum Quark

Farzana,

Passionately written. The only way you know..I guess.

I wonder if your first sentence is NOT BJP propaganda...what they want is convert the elections in Gujarat into a national referendum on INdia`s future. That is exactly their spin, selling Gujarat elections where they hoped to ride the polarisation along religious line to a runaway victory. Lyngdoh and a lately-aware bureaucracy and a resurgent Congress has dampened their initial optimism, though by all accounts they are still favourites to win by a thin margin. The virus strain they had developed in the ``Gujarat Lab``...would not be as saleable now elsewhere in Inida.

HN

re:#19 by qusman1
Modi will become India`s pm one day!
Fortunately, democracy works differently. It is like a tug of war. Only, all factions have a say in this ``tug of war``. Modi faction dominates in Gujarat the way Thackeray facition ruled the roost in Maharashtra in the past. Did Thackeray become PM? Heck, no. Educate yourself how democracy functions. Most of us secular people would like to see Modi defeated but if he wins, we will live to fight another day. Nothing is lost. India is not so weak as to succumb to the hatred of a lunatic.
Sridhar

Why do people keep repeating that the outcome of the Gujarat polls will judge the future of the rest of India?
If ignorant-emotional people from a high-strung state are asked to choose between two equally incompetent (or competent?) parties, then whatever is the outcome it won’t make sense. People who do not find the tactics of Congress any better than BJP may end up choosing anything out of frustration.
And also, when Gujarat was burning in riots how did it affect the rest of India? Well, not a single sane person in other states ever approved of what happened there. Full sympathies were there for the innocent victims whether burnt alive on the train and more so for those brutally killed later by the retaliating mob. And the riots did not spread to the rest of India as was feared.
Therefore let these polls not be the measuring tape for India’s future

Why do people keep repeating that the outcome of the Gujarat polls will judge the future of the rest of India?
If ignorant-emotional people from a high-strung state are asked to choose between two equally incompetent (or competent?) parties, then whatever is the outcome it won’t make sense. People who do not find the tactics of Congress any better than BJP may end up choosing anything out of frustration.
And also, when Gujarat was burning in riots how did it affect the rest of India? Well, not a single sane person in other states ever approved of what happened there. Full sympathies were there for the innocent victims whether burnt alive on the train and more so for those brutally killed later by the retaliating mob. And the riots did not spread to the rest of India as was feared.
Therefore let these polls not be the measuring tape for India’s future

Welcome back FV...

Your absence here was noted by many.

Hope that all is well.

This writing certainly displays a lot of range.

Many observations and personalities are encountered here.

Personally, I believe that Vajpayee is the better face of the BJP copared to Modi, Advani etc.

Gujrat is a scar that will not leave Indian history easily.

Like another article concerning Muslims currently here on CHOWK, one can hope that MODERATE HINDUS will prevail in India or the country will lose all its recent gains.

Ras

BJP winning in Gujarat does not mean a thing until and unless it gets heavy mandate. Excerpts from the report:-

Exit polls give Gujarat to BJP

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ THURSDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2002 08:01:17 PM ]


Reflecting this warning, the mood in the BJP here was sombre rather than upbeat. A senior Cabinet minister, watching the exit polls on TV said, ``If we just make it, we won`t gain very much from this victory. Of course, if we lose, it will damage us very much in the coming assembly elections.``


Given the BJP`s self-created hype of a `Hindu wave` sweeping Gujarat to restore the state`s ``gaurav``, a simple majority would be — as a BJP leader put it — ``at least a slap on the wrist for us``. A narrow win — or loss — would mean its attempt to return to the Hindutva agenda would have been negated. ``After this, I don`t think we can replicate the Gujarat experiment anywhere else,`` a party leader said.


Underlying this ``caution``, of course, is the fact that Modi has annoyed so many BJP leaders that there are mixed feelings about his winning an election at all. Asked whether a BJP victory for Modi would put him ahead of others in the party, a peer said, ``If he just scrapes through, Modi will just be chief minister, nothing more,`` adding that the party`s regional leaders in the past have never actually made it in Delhi.

re:#26 by Pankaj
``Gujrat was the engine of growth for India charting above 8% growth figures``
You obviously are unaware of the fact that growth rate in gujarat in recent times have been less than 2%. The engine of growth lies in South, driven by Software companies in Bangalore and Hyderabad. All that Gujjus are capable of doing is: buying and selling Shares in ``Satta Bazaar`` which does not require much of a brain. Now, to the love for money is added hatred for muslims. This seem to have been indoctrined in the past 15 years or so by the pro-BJP elements in the state. This is what will become of whole of India if every Indian starts thinking and acting like a Gujju. The saving grace is everyone does not and therein lies our hope.
Sridhar

Farzana means to day...not a single one of the mentioned leaders is good. I think we should import Musshi Uncle from India..after all he is also in the same boat as Advani. Come back home mate..

``Advani is from Karachi but now trying desperately to find a place for himself by becoming a religious fanatic``..says Farzana
But Musharraf is from Delhi and so desperately trying to plesse the Mullahs and Jamalis...desperately trying to proove that he is not a Mohajir.

These things have been going on since times immemorial...Babar, Ghazni, Ghauri, Tamurlaine, Changhez Khan...all of them must have scared the wits out of the local Hindus of the Mediveal India. But all present day Muslims hail them as heros...the very people who changed the `naksha` of our country yt destruction and conversions... so much so that the trouble is never ending.. All that is happenign today is the long drawn consequence of what happened years ago.
So, just like that Mediveal phase did not stay...this will also go away...maybe once Hindus find thier lost glory

I do not remember any leader in modern India who was chided and condemned more than Modi. I guess one will be hard pressed to find well educated men and women who can eulogise Modi in open. The media condemned Modi; especially the national level newspapers came all out against Modi. Yet this man appears to succeed in elections. I would be pleasantly surprised if I am proved wrong. But I am afraid that I am right considering the exit polls. Elections in India are mostly free and fair with a very few exceptions. Economy could not be the reason as a look on the State GDP would show. Gujrat was the engine of growth for India charting above 8% growth figures. Illiteracy could not be the reason for Gujrat is one of the more literate states. Obviously secular forces have their ``paap ka pitara`` and their previous Karmas are haunting them. It is time for the secular forces to know their opponent and analyze their own weaknesses. Only a dispassionate analysis could reveal why development issue failed to strike a chord with the masses and lost to the VHP antics. Perhaps it is time for introspection on the future direction India needs to take.

Chowk Staff Please

Where is my post please. Is it censored please. If it is censored then why it is censored. Since when you have started censoring posts? I am starting to get disappointed; I am so appalled I can`t even say ``welcome back`` to Farzana; if our posts are going to be censored then what`s the use?

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[ #21 by the_happy_one on December 12, 2002 2:07pm PT
...
Sorry to rain on your parade but pasted below is a fine article by a much more accomplished writer.


A different loneliness
Ten years after the Babri demolition
by Saeed Naqvi

...

This epic again is dotted with Hindu lore. Wali Dakhini or Wali Gujarati was another favourite set to tunes by Aseemun. Koocha-e yaar ain Kashi, hai/ Jogia dil wahan ka Vaasi, haai (My beloved’s neighbourhood is exactly like the holy city of Kashi; and the yogi of my heart has taken up residence in that city).
Yes, this is the same Wali Gujarati whose grave was levelled by the rioters in Ahmedabad and today traffic plies over it.
But traffic of another type plies over the grave of another poet, possibly the greatest of them all, Mir Taqi Mir. A railway track runs over his grave at Lucknow city station. Uske farogh-e-husn se/ jhamke hai sab mein noor/ Shamm-e haram ho ya ki diya/ Somnath ka (His light permeates through all — the lamp at Kaaba or the Somnath temple.)
Ghalib’s house in Ballimaran remains ignored. Remember his adoration for Varanasi? (Varanasi is like a beautiful woman admiring herself in the mirror of the Ganga, mornings, evenings and afternoons). In fact in this long poem, ‘Lamp in a Temple’, Ghalib describes Varanasi as the ‘Kaaba of Hindustan’, somewhat in the same vein as Iqbal’s description of Lord Rama as the ‘Imam of Hindustan’.
How many more poets must I list? Does anybody remember poetry in praise of Lord Rama by Abdul Rahim Khan-e-Khana?

...

]

Does anybody remember? We did not even know. No question about remembering because in the first place we did not know it so we did not forget it. Or may be the question is addressed to urdu speaking people? Did the people, who entered Sabarmati Express carrying gasoline cans, knew about this? Or, forgetting of this gems occured at another level? May be their parents simply forgot to sing these songs because somebody told them that they are unislamic? I am thinking who may be such a bad guy who would say something like that? You would perhaps not accept Jinnah or Suhrawardy as the answer. Would you?

-einsteinwallah

PS: Thank you the_happy_one for posting such a nice piece by Naqvi. Frankly I did not know many of things he writes. -ew

It is frightening to see someone like Modi rise to power in Gujrat.

Something I`ve noted in my interactions with Hindu Gujaratis from India is a sense of strong religious polarization in their society. So you hear of `Gujaratis` as against `Muslims`, while in Pakistan, we`ll use `Gujarati` for a Memon or a Hindu. Note that Gujarati newspapers coming out in Karachi use the common script (which evolved from cursive Devanagari).

Anyway, to the `Mera Bhaarat Mahaan Brigade` I say: Keep scratching your heads in dismay. Modi will probably end up as your PM. And he`ll ride a chariot pulled by your obsessive forward-caste delusions and complexes over Pakistan.

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Hi Farzana:

You make so many gaffes to begin with that it’s hard to continue reading your ‘articles’. Like someone pointed out Ravana neither had a tail nor used it to burn anything. And if you have Gujarati roots how come you used the expression ‘Modibhai’? Anybody who was even half way familiar with Gujarati expression wouldn’t use the suffix ‘bhai’ after a surname. Maybe your disappointment in the fact that your intelligent readers tend to disagree with you is misplaced after all. I mean if they loyally read your stuff how intelligent can they really be?

Sorry to rain on your parade but pasted below is a fine article by a much more accomplished writer.


A different loneliness
Ten years after the Babri demolition
by Saeed Naqvi

I have tried to induce in myself a nostalgia, some sort of emotion, on the 10th anniversary of the fall of Babri Masjid and have drawn a blank. In another context, Wordsworth talked of the loss of that ‘visionary gleam’. Possibly, something inside me has dried up.
In my years as a journalist I have reverted repeatedly to my village, Mustafabad, near Rae Bareli, where my earliest sensibilities were shaped by grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and, above all, my father and mother. Ours was a Muslim home, a mosque dominating our courtyard. But the cultural derivatives of this Islam were set against a broad Hindu civilisational framework. It was not something we discussed. It was something we lived.
Our marriage rituals were rituals of Avadh and therefore, I dare say, Hindu. If one of our cousins was in the family way my mother would arrange for Aseemun to be around for the childbirth. How could a baby be born in our house without Aseemun singing in her full-throated style, my mother’s favourite sohar, song sung at childbirth in our villages. Allah mian hamare bhaiyya ka diyo nand Lal (Oh my Allah give my brother a son like Lord Krishna). The controller of ceremonies, both at weddings and at childbirth, was the nawan, or the barber’s wife. Whether Hindu or Muslim, she brought into the rituals and the festivities the cultural elements of the Hindu countryside.
Even our religious poetry was occasionally cast in a Hindu ambience. The greatest epics on various aspects of the tragedy of Karbala were written by Mir Anis who is regarded as the greatest master of Urdu diction. These poems, or Marsias, are the staple at most Moharram congregations particularly in areas around Avadh.
Even though all of Anis’s characters like Imam Hussain, the prophet’s grandson, Abbas, his brother, Zainab, his sister and a range of sisters and daughters-in-law, are historically Arab, Anis has delineated his characters as quintessentially Avadhi. In their speech and demeanour they come across as Indian. Bano-e-nek naam ki kheti, hari rahey/ Sandal se maang, bachchon/ Se godi bhari rahey (May the parting in Bano’s hair always carry a streak of sandalwood and may her house always be filled with the laughter of children).
My grandmother could actually recite passages from Padmavat, the classic in Avadhi written by Malik Mohammad Jaisi. This epic again is dotted with Hindu lore. Wali Dakhini or Wali Gujarati was another favourite set to tunes by Aseemun. Koocha-e yaar ain Kashi, hai/ Jogia dil wahan ka Vaasi, haai (My beloved’s neighbourhood is exactly like the holy city of Kashi; and the yogi of my heart has taken up residence in that city).
Yes, this is the same Wali Gujarati whose grave was levelled by the rioters in Ahmedabad and today traffic plies over it.
But traffic of another type plies over the grave of another poet, possibly the greatest of them all, Mir Taqi Mir. A railway track runs over his grave at Lucknow city station. Uske farogh-e-husn se/ jhamke hai sab mein noor/ Shamm-e haram ho ya ki diya/ Somnath ka (His light permeates through all — the lamp at Kaaba or the Somnath temple.)
Ghalib’s house in Ballimaran remains ignored. Remember his adoration for Varanasi? (Varanasi is like a beautiful woman admiring herself in the mirror of the Ganga, mornings, evenings and afternoons). In fact in this long poem, ‘Lamp in a Temple’, Ghalib describes Varanasi as the ‘Kaaba of Hindustan’, somewhat in the same vein as Iqbal’s description of Lord Rama as the ‘Imam of Hindustan’.
How many more poets must I list? Does anybody remember poetry in praise of Lord Rama by Abdul Rahim Khan-e-Khana? That somewhat ravaged monument at the entrance of Nizamuddin East in New Delhi is his tomb.
And what of Saiyid Ibrahim Raskhan’s unparalleled adoration for that ‘naughty boy from Gokul’ or Salbeg’s lyrics on Jagannath never sung better than by Sikandar Alam. Or Nazir Akbarabadi on Krishna Raas, Mahadev, Guru Nanak. And if you have had enough of the 19th century let me introduce you to modern poets. Krishn ka hun pujari/ Ali ka banda hoon/ Yagana shaan-e-khuda/ Dekh kar raha na Gaya (I am a pujari of Krishna and a devotee of Ali/ I cannot help myself when I see the wonders of God).
Just in case you didn’t know, the longest running serial, Mahabharat, which almost transformed Hinduism into a congregational religion, was written by Masoom Raza Rahi.
And why restrict ourselves to literature? Ustad Fayyaz Khan had a series of compositions but of none was he more proud than: Manmohan Braj ke Rasiya (Colourful Krishna in Braj land). Visit Ustad Alauddin Khan’s house in Maihar and you will be witness to one of the great spectacles of composite culture. The great master said his namaaz five times a day but his music he derived from Saraswati, who adorns all the walls of his house.
When my friend Raghu Rai and I visited Malikarjun Mansoor, Gangubai Hangal and Bhimsen Joshi, prominent on their walls were photographs of their respective gurus, Manjhe Khan and Ustad Abdul Karim Khan. Ibrahim Adil Shah, the King of Bijapur in the 18th century begins his great work on music Kitaab-e-Nauras with Saraswati Vandana. Had Dara Shikoh not translated the Upanishads into Persian, the transmission of Hindu thought to the West would have had to rely on some other route.
I have not even mentioned Khushi Mohammad, the pujari who looks after Goga Merhi temple in Ganganagar and Adam Malik from Baktot village in Pahalgam who discovered the Amarnath shrine. One third of the proceeds from the shrine to this day go to the descendents of Mailk.
But in the 10th year of the destruction of the Babri Masjid, none of this seems relevant. Would Modi, Singhal or Togadia understand any of this? They were not around when I went out and made 50 short films on these themes. Oh the passion with which I undertook the expedition. Except for my cousin Jimmy’s mad pursuit of these themes, I was alone even then. Today I feel different, probably lonely and there is a difference.

The Gujrat elections are turning into an interesting test lab. If the BJP wins, would it indicate that India wants to hold on to Hinduvta, if not in power, at least in opposition? I would say yes.

If BJP loses, and then loses some more in other areas, and eventually is not the main opposition either, then one would have to say that India has truly passed through a crisis and has established, if not a first world, then at least a second world stable democracy.

What I cannot understand is how the BJP got into power in the first place. Two years ago, I used to quote directly from the BJP website, www.bjp.org, about the violently anti-Muslim attitudes of the BJP. I would point out that if a party states anti-Muslim lines directly on their own website, then it must mean what it says. I had mentioned that sooner or later another Babri Mosque type incidence would occur. It was obvious and it did occcur after Godhra. But again and again, so many Indians would defend the BJP and would accuse me of selective quoting. One even mentioned that the website represented the views of a misguided webmaster and not of the BJP.

Luckily, now everyone seems to have jumped on the anti-BJP bandwagon. Quite a few Johnny-come-latelys. Even the BJP`s stauchest supporters on this site are no longer defending it, and no one accuses me of selective quoting. But I still cannot understand the following:

Why are all these people now so surprised at how the BJP is handling the Indian Muslims, when it mentioned, years ago, in a straight forward manner in its own manifesto that this is exactly what it was going to do?

India, unlike Pakistan, is not a feudal society, and its people are far more liberated when it comes to opportunities for selecting their leaders. Blaming Modi, Vajpayee and Advani only is not correct. The blame for whatever is being done by the BJP needs to placed on the people who vote(d) for them. After all, BJP is doing exactly what it promised its voters it would do. If anything, it has actually watered down its stance due to the NDA, in comparison to what it said it would do in its manifesto.

As far as portrayal of various characters of the drama is unconcerned, I completely agree with this article. Infact a strong case could be made out of the material that already exists against Modia and company. But if anybody wants a lesson on how to botch up your strong case, this article is an excellent testimony. Leave aside the trivial mistakes made by the author for the time being regarding Ramayana and focus on the two paras below:

1. ``We have so much culture. 44 people died, 100 were injured but not one pillar of the Rs. 60 crore Swaminarayan Temple was harmed. We are knowing how to preserve our heritage. Gujaratis must export this technology (this is one thing the Yankees cannot patent, no?). I am giving you all this idea because I am now respecting you. You know how to keep purity of Gujarati language. In whole state nobody could immediately translate that Urdu chit in the terrorists’ pockets. (Why those chaps were carrying dry fruits and chocolates``

Note three points: one about the pillars, second about Urdu chits and the third about dry fruits. The author ignores that the fact that AK 47 can not bring down the heavy pillars of the temple, at best it could leave the scar. The purpose of the terrorist attack was to kill Hindu worshippers. Secondly author presumes that apparently nobody in the police could read Urdu chits. Let the author present the names of the policemen in the group who read these chits and show that none could read Urdu. A lot of people especially Muslims(policemen could also be Muslims) in India could easily read Urdu. Thirdly it is well known that LeT/JeM terrorists carry dry fruits along with them. The reason why dry fruits are preferred is because apart from being a quick source of carbohydrates, they are non-perishable items. The people are requested to note the ``innuendo`` style rhetoric.


2. ``Be sure of one thing: these elections will be rigged, and the winner will be the party that is better at booth-capturing, horse-trading and monkeying around. Even if the BJP were to lose here, it will make up at the Centre in a few months. ``

Once again notice the language and the purport of the author. So Gujrat elections are over today and these were one of the most peaceful elections with almost no reports of booth-capturing or rigging. One thing that Indians are proud of is democracy amidst the dictatorships and pseudo-dictatorships in the third world. Nobody has ever won a 99% vote in the free India ever, not even Nehru. If Modi could have rigged elections or if BJP could have done so, they would not have lost in one election after the other in so many states in India. If BJP could have rigged the elections they would not have come third in UP, where it almost became a matter of survival for BJP. Elections in India are mostly free and fair and are held by an independent constitutional authority called Election Commission. If Mr. Lyngdoh, The Chief Election Commisner is a man of honor and has stood against the govt time and again despite onslaught of VHP goons. If Democracy is alive in India it is bacause of the mostly free and fair elections. By these statements, the author has directly questioned the impartiality and the constitutional authority of EC in India.

PS Any conscientious person can make a better case against Modi in Gujrat. You dont need to stoop to the level of innuendos and baseless aspersions for making what is a perfectly just case. Alas only if these so called ``saviors`` who write length articles were more honest and sincere !!!

Half century is gone after Independence, yet again - we have stumbled on the same old road-blocks: Hindu-Muslim antagonism. We haven`t yet been able to reconciliate our communal differences. We haven`t yet learnt to how to prevent riots, a basic law and order problem.

Democracy, Development, Technology , Space Research - it doesn`t matter. Our basic instincts have not changed , age-old fundamental deficiencies that have always held us back - have not been improved upon. We as a people seem to be incapable of focusing our passions on things that really matter.

Will there ever be a day when Modi and Sonia would fight an election on how much investment they would be bringing to the state - they would be starting their election campaigns from the doorstep of a chip manufacturing plant rather than the doorstep of a goddamned temple or mosque? I doubt it. Stupid people led by stupid leaders!! Stupidity all around.

Farzana,
I totally agree with the first few paragraphs (before the analysis of Modi begins). I think you `over analysed` Advani, but liked your take on Jaitley. Wish you had written about Arun Shourie too.
On the Gujarat elections, I am confident that they will not be rigged - have some faith in our election commission.
Finally, it was not Ravana whose tail set Lanka on fire, it was Hanuman.

Whataresaaying Farzana !!

****Ravana had to burn Lanka with tail to save Rama****

Patel Bhai maybe not knowing rapidex hinglish, having lousy grammer, fuzzy logic and black heart - but NAEVER mixing up gods and demons !! Ravana having ten heads and acheeles heel in toondi NOT burn Lanka with tail like anjali-putra-pawan-suth Hanuman. Me thinking you making BIG mishtake !!

(haven`t got beyond the first few lines - what a great way to fight fundoos !! laught at them ! When they start making bad jokes about fundoos in Bollywood blockbusters they shall vanish in a puff of smoke!)

Its a long article so I will respond in installments sorry.

Re the Akshardham pillars and damage to them. I read somewhere that the Swaminarayan trust designed and built the temple with the intention that it should last a 1000+ years(it survived the earthquake too), so its no surprise that nothing happened to its pillars.

The better motif is of innocent Muslims surrounded by a mob and no help available, as in why commandos are not called when mobs are on the rampage. Mr Ehsan Jafri, when he was surrounded by a threatening mob, kept calling for help for 6 hours, he contacted senior Congress leaders, reportedly even Sonia Gandhi was phoned. In contrast, the commandos were dispatched within 1-2 hrs of the temple attack. It could be `lessons learned`, but how can we wait for another riot to find out? The thing to do is pin Modi/Gujarat home minister/Advani/ID Swami/etc down on this exact point, the Ehsan Jafri point, what government procedure was used when and why and who decided? Why is mob violence not listed as a urgent threat to public security as much as a couple of gunmen?

To raise these and other questions and demand answers is very important and IMO hence its also important(though difficult) to avoid Hindu-Muslim wrangles/angles, because
1. for me as a Hindu its not a Hindu-Muslim thing. If Indian citizens are killed barbarously while the govt. connives or watches, I as an Indian citizen demand answers and accountability irrespective of whether I am Hindu or Muslim. If someone frames the issue on a Hindu-Muslim angle, that puts me among the murderers on count of my religion, so how does this help ?

2. the Hindu-Muslim angle gives the Hindutva demagogues an opportunity to detract from the human angle. If you notice, those opportunities are what Modi has been consistently making use of.

Farzana,
It`s good to see you back at Chowk...you`ve been missed. As for the disheartening feedback from `intelligent` readers...ji, ye log bhi aksar ghalat paRRhtay haiN. you stand by the courage of your convictions, and keep on doing so! Judging by the remarks, and continuing actions of so-called intelligent people here in the US...i am now convinced that the centre has stopped holding, things have fallen apart, and many of us are clay in the hands of rabid brigades. Chalo, enough cynicism...and t. is right...the attack is at hand, but you`ve been able to weather it before na?
Courage!
love, ana

Farzana:

Your article reflects pain and sadness of inumerable peaceful people, Indians and non-Indians alike. To me, your artcile also has an underpinning message that you believe in India and however flawed, its democracies. Modi-Advani-and-Vajpayee (for his unbelievable words that you have quoted) team must be very vulnerable to make Gujrat election a India v Pakistan show down. That too in the land of Gandhi and Jinnah too.

ANIL

Hello Farzana . . . to quote from your otherwise mundane article which at the end of the day does not address the larger issue from an impassionate world view but tries to break everything down into a sadly myopic treatise on rampaging Hindus killing Muslims unaware of their environments . . . ````As a citizen on this country, I need the answers. And you owe me an apology as well.```` Fine, as another citizen of the same country, let me try to respond, if that is fine by you. I am, after all, Hindu and I do take the truble to study as well as understand the Upanishads, the Vedas . . . as also the Quran, the Bible. I do not profess to be anything close to a scholar on these books, but I do hope you shall let me try?


So, here is my take on matters . . . and please try to take an objective world view IF you or anybody else choose to debate.

a) I am glad that you & I are citizens of a country where we can seek answers. On his single point in isolation, are you glad too? If not, why? As for apologies, what is their value?

b) Churn is inevitable, and has been around since the year dot. If out of the churn evolves, say, emancipation of women otherwise forced to live like sub-humans, why do you object? Where is the position of women headed, otherwise, in fundamentalist society, Hindu, Muslim or otherwise, in India?

c) What have the undamaged pillars of the Swaminarayan Temple got to do with anything relevant to your artice? Come on, say it? Or scavenging cows? Are you trying to join unconnected anecdotal dots or are you looking at the broader picture? Was the scavenging cow owned by a Hindu or a Muslim, or maybe a Parsee or a Sikh?

d) Do 2, 20, 200, 2000 or 20000 deaths feel different? Think about this one, especially, when responding? Did somebody deserve some credit, however out of place it may be, for stopping 18000 deaths at the cost of 2000?

+++

````, and I am afraid India today is clay in the hands of the saffron brigade.
````. That, lady, shows how much you really are out of touch with reality. Out there in the semi-urban and semir rural and rural parts of the country I travel and do not see any ``wave`` based on religion. On other parameters, sure. But increasingly, as sure as there is a nature that seems to be changing weather patterns and monsoons, there is, all over the country, no saffron or green wave, for sure.

+++

India, luckily, has plenty of people who are, across social and economic lines, good people. Whether Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Cristian, or any other religion, sect, caste, community, tribe. Sure, they take advantage of the situation as it unfolds. But to club all of them into saffron brigade, green wave, nishaan sahib pole, cross conversion club, jewish conspiracy, man on the moon . . . that is a bit off.

+++

One last point, on this issue of multiple wives, growth of populations and so on and so forth. Read the Quran, the Ramayan, the Bible and the Mahabharat and analyse who had how many wives, husbands, children . . . and tell me if it makes even the least difference?

+++

Farzana
Just to begin with, donot mix too many issues. AB Vajpayee should be pinned down on the communal angle, the nuclear/Pakistan angle doesnot work.

( For instance, Pakistan was selling nuclear weapons technology to N. Korea in BB`s tenure before India did its tests. Also, its said in many accounts that Pakistan threatened India with nukes at least as early as Brasstacks in the early 90s. Similarly there is Congressional testimony that people like Reagan and Bush Sr kept giving waivers to Pakistan(and China) in the 80s despite knowledge of weapons and missile development. Pakistan testing brought to forefront Pakistan`s and its maibaaps China and US`s longstanding missile and nuclear nonproliferation hypocrisy much before BJP came to power)

Back to communal angle. As I said, AB Vajpayee needs to be pinned on this, but not on the basis of misquoting him, please.

Also, I may be mistaken, but apart from Arun Jaitley, wasn`t Pramod Mahajan also among those who supported Modi within the BJP when he was going to be fired.

re: godot #5
[ ... We can have a duel, in Kashmir, between Advani and Musharraf like a couple of gladiators and whoever wins will take Kashmir. This way only one life will be lost instead of annihilating millions of innocent people from both sides of the border. Is Mr. Advani up to it, or he is as coward as his words indicate? ...]

Chaalaak aadmi! You know that Musharraf is an ex-commando and will whip Advani`s ass within microseconds.

;-)

Agreed it is very hard to find anything positive about Gujarat on the eve of its election. Of Modi/Advani, well what can I say? These are cunning chauvinists, demagogues with an eye for gesture and sound bytes. Their creativity begins and ends with creating division and distress.

These are also people who are unable to learn about anything from history. Chauvinism in Sri Lanka caused and a civil war and 60,000 dead out of a population of 20 million. I do not even want to think about the corresponding figure for India.

I still have hope for the civil society of India which saw it through the emergency and some of the terrible periods around the punjab insurgency. But instead of focussing on the future, on having every indian child in school, on abdul kalams ``vision for india``, we will have to spend all our energies on dealing with these short-sighted, spite-ridden, losers with their murderous lumpen allies. It is a sad prospect but it must be sadder still to be a muslim in Gujarat today.

BLESS YOU FARZANA -- A MASTERPIECE!

Welcome back Behain! We`ve missed you!

Farzana,

This is a very good piece. Sarcastic, hilarious and deeply sad. One wonders what kind of politicians India has chosen. It seems that the people you mention want to play holi with blood and bathe in blood as if it is all fun and game and human lives don`t mean anything. What is wrong with them? Where are taking their country towards? Is their vision and goal for their country lies at the end of a river flowing with blood and they are happy to sail on a boat in this river of blood? Apparently so.

If Mr. Advani wants to fight a war with Pakistan, why have so many people killed? We can have a duel, in Kashmir, between Advani and Musharraf like a couple of gladiators and whoever wins will take Kashmir. This way only one life will be lost instead of annihilating millions of innocent people from both sides of the border. Is Mr. Advani up to it, or he is as coward as his words indicate? I wish someone posed this question to him.

Your end comment is extremely frightening. You are a very brave soul to stand up to the ignorance and primitive thoughts. Keep writing and keep us informed. You are much admired by all the intelligent people here at Chowk.

Ferz:

welcome back to the new chowk!...will read and comment later... a quick glance tell me you will be bombarded with the usual...some things do not change...therefore you will need a lot of bspnd and rah...

...t

PS:

TO CHOWK EDITORS:

if and when i submit `fishing` you dare not cite length as a reason for rejection;)

...gaaaarbage...