The Unmaking Of Gujrat
Farzana Versey December 11, 2002
#107 Posted by GhalibZaman on December 15, 2002 10:07:12 am
Was it not hate for the British colonialism & Imperialism that won us our independence & freedom---at least nominal. Was it not hate against the US in vietnam that sent the thugs packing?. Was it not the hate of hindus for muslims that fecilitated Pakistan.
Is it not the hate the Kashmiris, the Falasteenees, the Latin Americans , the chinese and the muslims have for the Imperialists & Neo-Colonists that keeps the CNN in business? Was it not hate for communism that got Russia & the world somewhat free of atheism & godlessness?
The answer is written on the wind sand and sea.
____________________________________________________________
Koreans protest US response to girls` death
SEOUL, Dec 14: Tens of thousands of people carrying candles descended on the US embassy here Saturday to protest what they considered was an inadequate US response to the deaths of two schoolgirls crushed by a US military vehicle in June.
Regular protests have rocked Seoul for a month as the anti-US sentiment sparked by a US court martial`s decision to acquit two soldiers on charges of negligent homicide in the incident has reached a near boiling point.
On Saturday, an intersection near the US embassy was awash in flickering candlelight, the tapers borne aloft by an estimated crowd of 50,000 people who booed and shouted slogans.
``Bring Mi-sun and Hyo-soon back to life,`` the crowd chanted, interspersing inspiring songs led by Yoon Do-Hyun, who composed a fight song for the recent football World Cup here.
Protesters also gathered in front of city hall, where student radicals shredded eight giant US flags. Slogans were also chanted that urged changes to the controversial Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which regulates relations with the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and allows US authorities jurisdiction over crimes committed by American soldiers in the line of duty. Some demanded the outright withdrawal of all US troops.
Organizers said Saturday`s rallies were the biggest so far, as the anti-US sentiment that was once largely confined to radical student groups had infected mainstream South Koreans, including star athletes, movie stars and musicians.
Police mobilized 15,000 riot-trained troops clad in protective gear and carrying shields to control the largely-peaceful crowd, creating a human ring around the high-walled embassy that was also protected by bumper-to-bumper police buses.
Activists have hurled Molotov cocktails in the wave of protests leading up to Saturday`s event, and have rushed the security lines to force their way onto US military bases. But no incidents were reported Saturday.
In the southeastern city of Daegu, two students wrapped in the national flag scaled the wall of a US military base and climbed up to a giant water tank to chant their anti-US slogan, footage broadcast on television showed.
A phone call Friday with South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung in which US President George W. Bush voiced his ``deep personal sadness`` - the first time the US president made direct reference to the deaths of the girls - did little ease the growing anti-US sentiment in what had been one of Washington`s strongest Asian allies.
US Ambassador to Seoul Thomas Hubbard had earlier conveyed Bush`s regret over the tragedy. ``We cannot accept it as a direct apology to the Korean people. We demand him to apologize in the capacity of the US president instead of whispering personal sadness on the phone,`` said Chai Hee-Byeong, secretary general of an umbrella group of civic activists.
Chai said Bush sidestepped the issue of a controversial accord governing the status of the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea, offering only a vague promise to work closely with Seoul to prevent such accidents in the future.-AFP
Is it not the hate the Kashmiris, the Falasteenees, the Latin Americans , the chinese and the muslims have for the Imperialists & Neo-Colonists that keeps the CNN in business? Was it not hate for communism that got Russia & the world somewhat free of atheism & godlessness?
The answer is written on the wind sand and sea.
____________________________________________________________
Koreans protest US response to girls` death
SEOUL, Dec 14: Tens of thousands of people carrying candles descended on the US embassy here Saturday to protest what they considered was an inadequate US response to the deaths of two schoolgirls crushed by a US military vehicle in June.
Regular protests have rocked Seoul for a month as the anti-US sentiment sparked by a US court martial`s decision to acquit two soldiers on charges of negligent homicide in the incident has reached a near boiling point.
On Saturday, an intersection near the US embassy was awash in flickering candlelight, the tapers borne aloft by an estimated crowd of 50,000 people who booed and shouted slogans.
``Bring Mi-sun and Hyo-soon back to life,`` the crowd chanted, interspersing inspiring songs led by Yoon Do-Hyun, who composed a fight song for the recent football World Cup here.
Protesters also gathered in front of city hall, where student radicals shredded eight giant US flags. Slogans were also chanted that urged changes to the controversial Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), which regulates relations with the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and allows US authorities jurisdiction over crimes committed by American soldiers in the line of duty. Some demanded the outright withdrawal of all US troops.
Organizers said Saturday`s rallies were the biggest so far, as the anti-US sentiment that was once largely confined to radical student groups had infected mainstream South Koreans, including star athletes, movie stars and musicians.
Police mobilized 15,000 riot-trained troops clad in protective gear and carrying shields to control the largely-peaceful crowd, creating a human ring around the high-walled embassy that was also protected by bumper-to-bumper police buses.
Activists have hurled Molotov cocktails in the wave of protests leading up to Saturday`s event, and have rushed the security lines to force their way onto US military bases. But no incidents were reported Saturday.
In the southeastern city of Daegu, two students wrapped in the national flag scaled the wall of a US military base and climbed up to a giant water tank to chant their anti-US slogan, footage broadcast on television showed.
A phone call Friday with South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung in which US President George W. Bush voiced his ``deep personal sadness`` - the first time the US president made direct reference to the deaths of the girls - did little ease the growing anti-US sentiment in what had been one of Washington`s strongest Asian allies.
US Ambassador to Seoul Thomas Hubbard had earlier conveyed Bush`s regret over the tragedy. ``We cannot accept it as a direct apology to the Korean people. We demand him to apologize in the capacity of the US president instead of whispering personal sadness on the phone,`` said Chai Hee-Byeong, secretary general of an umbrella group of civic activists.
Chai said Bush sidestepped the issue of a controversial accord governing the status of the 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea, offering only a vague promise to work closely with Seoul to prevent such accidents in the future.-AFP
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#106 Posted by Romair on December 15, 2002 9:03:33 am
Seems like BJP is going to win. I would say this is bad news for India in the long run.
If it does win, will this encourage it to use the same tactics in other provinces and for the national election. After all, wherever it tried to show its moderate face, it lost. Wherever it has shown its real face, it is winning.
If it does win, will this encourage it to use the same tactics in other provinces and for the national election. After all, wherever it tried to show its moderate face, it lost. Wherever it has shown its real face, it is winning.
#105 Posted by arjun_m on December 15, 2002 8:35:49 am
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#104 Posted by einsteinwallah on December 15, 2002 8:35:49 am
[ #57 by FarzanaVersey on December 13, 2002 11:34am PT
...
About the goof-up of Ravana’s tail instead of Hanuman’s, I had removed it before sending the print version after realising it (it wasn’t ignorance here, but the image of Modi as Ravana was occupying my mind), but while posting it at Chowk I used the unchanged hard copy. Anyway, thanks to all those who pointed it out. I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway. ]
You must be finding Modi`s speaches also infinitely boring. Where is the need to falsify his words? Does not the journalistic integrity demand that you verify a person`s words before you attribute it to him/her?
-ew
...
About the goof-up of Ravana’s tail instead of Hanuman’s, I had removed it before sending the print version after realising it (it wasn’t ignorance here, but the image of Modi as Ravana was occupying my mind), but while posting it at Chowk I used the unchanged hard copy. Anyway, thanks to all those who pointed it out. I consider Indian mythology as part of my cultural baggage, and I honestly do not have to tell the world about all the epics/religious books I have read. I find them all infinitely boring, anyway. ]
You must be finding Modi`s speaches also infinitely boring. Where is the need to falsify his words? Does not the journalistic integrity demand that you verify a person`s words before you attribute it to him/her?
-ew
#103 Posted by Godot on December 15, 2002 8:35:49 am
Feroz (100),
``There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are. These are the old truths we are painfully rediscovering after a century and more of sentimental cant. Those who deny them deny their family, their heritage, their culture, their birthrights, their very selves! They will not lightly be forgiven.``
Michael Dibdin quoted by Samuel Huntington in The Clash of Civilizations.
``There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are. These are the old truths we are painfully rediscovering after a century and more of sentimental cant. Those who deny them deny their family, their heritage, their culture, their birthrights, their very selves! They will not lightly be forgiven.``
Michael Dibdin quoted by Samuel Huntington in The Clash of Civilizations.
#101 Posted by m_souza on December 15, 2002 6:52:23 am
Farzana says in her post 57: ``all the epic books (Hindu) I have read. I find them infinitely boring anyway``. She is an educated Muslim woman. So I can imagine what uneducated Muslims think about Hinduism. I don’t say Indian Muslims or other religions have to enjoy Hindu books and scriptures but respect..just some respect. But if they hate Hinduism, calling them kafirs, calling it a false religion then that Is not going to solve any problems. And of course we want to solve the problems, not aggravate them.
If Muslims hate the very religion of their ancestors..then why do they expect Hindus to respect a religion, which came from other lands, which was brought by attacking invaders? A religion, which they beleive destroyed their temples. After all scars don’t heal, we have learnt from the history. But we can try some healing ..both ways.
If deep in their hearts Muslims accept this fact that they should not hate Hinduism just because Saudi, Arabic or other Muslims hate it due to misconceptions like idol worship etc. Now, what do non-Indian Muslims know about Hinduism. Nothing. But look at our Indian President, APJ Abdul Kalam. He is a devout Muslim but he is equally well versed in Hindu Scriptures. And do you know who made the so very popular Indian TV serial “Mahabharta”? It was a Muslim Sanjay Khan. See, they know as much if not more about their ancestors than Hindus and are yet Muslims. Neither ashamed of their ancestoral religion, nor ashamed of being Muslims. They two of the so many successful Indian Muslims with respect for all. Not everyone has to study Hinduism like these people did…after all, India is a democratic and secular country. But no harm in respecting and trying to understand what it is in Hinduism besides the outward show. I have read a lot about Holy Quran. There are good things there. And yet I am a Hindu and intend to remain so.
Hindus also have to realize that if Hinduism accepts so many different forms of worship and various ways of praying…. even in one religion… then let Indian Muslims follow their religion peacefully. After all ..God is One..call him Allah ..call him Ram.
If Muslims hate the very religion of their ancestors..then why do they expect Hindus to respect a religion, which came from other lands, which was brought by attacking invaders? A religion, which they beleive destroyed their temples. After all scars don’t heal, we have learnt from the history. But we can try some healing ..both ways.
If deep in their hearts Muslims accept this fact that they should not hate Hinduism just because Saudi, Arabic or other Muslims hate it due to misconceptions like idol worship etc. Now, what do non-Indian Muslims know about Hinduism. Nothing. But look at our Indian President, APJ Abdul Kalam. He is a devout Muslim but he is equally well versed in Hindu Scriptures. And do you know who made the so very popular Indian TV serial “Mahabharta”? It was a Muslim Sanjay Khan. See, they know as much if not more about their ancestors than Hindus and are yet Muslims. Neither ashamed of their ancestoral religion, nor ashamed of being Muslims. They two of the so many successful Indian Muslims with respect for all. Not everyone has to study Hinduism like these people did…after all, India is a democratic and secular country. But no harm in respecting and trying to understand what it is in Hinduism besides the outward show. I have read a lot about Holy Quran. There are good things there. And yet I am a Hindu and intend to remain so.
Hindus also have to realize that if Hinduism accepts so many different forms of worship and various ways of praying…. even in one religion… then let Indian Muslims follow their religion peacefully. After all ..God is One..call him Allah ..call him Ram.
#100 Posted by ZafarA on December 15, 2002 6:52:22 am
Reply Arjun_M #91
``Whats good for gujrat isnt good for maharashtra or for other parts of the country....people in bangalore would rather riot over a film star being kidnapped..``
Or found dead. (25 buses burned, right?)
``To get the hindus to riot would require the vhp etc to fake some sort of an attack on hindus or latch on to something like godhra.``
Indeed.
``If you go over the communal riots of the past years, most of the riots were localized and trigerred in that locality by specific indidents..godhra, bombay etc. etc. Even when gujrat was burning, bombay was peaceful. When bombay was bruning in 92, gujrat was peaceful.``
Bombay was peaceful because the Govt made thousands of preventative arrests of Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal activists. In fact those parts of Gujarat where such arrests were made (Kutch) also saw much less violence. Also, there WAS some communal violence in Maharashtra (North of Bombay) during that time.
IMO the conditions for communal riots exist in many parts of India - but large scale communal violence does not take place without the Govt of the day (and place) turning a blind eye to it.
If you recall, Godhra is located quite close to the MP border with Gujarat, and there were fairly strenuous attempts to spread the violence to MP - attempts which Digvijay Singh (Congress) stamped on hard (and successfully). That`s why there is such unease with the BJP`s role in the whole thing - it couldn`t have happened the way it did without them.
(Congress has a similar story to answer for re the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi.)
The news, btw, is that the BJP won big in Gujarat - something like 125 to 50 seats. Spoke to some relatives from Gujarat before then, and they all predicted a BJP win - but I suppose we`re all surprised at the extent of their victory.
Anyway - I hope that you`re right, but I think that the BJP`s win is going to encourage those parts of the Sangh Parivar which deal in political violence. Thing is, if they get RESULTS, their pov is hard to counter within the Parivar without saying that it is their ideas and assumptions which are wrong - and I doubt that other parts of the Parivar are going to do that.
A tangent: I was in Bombay two weeks ago when a bomb went off in a bus in Ghatkopar, killing two people and injuring many. The Bombay riots were particularly violent there - and the timing (just before the anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition) and location of the bomb seemed to be a clear reminder of where things had gone in Bombay when Gujarat like violence had been allowed to go on unchecked. A ``response`` bomb then went off a few days later in a McDonald`s (!) in a Muslim majority area of the city, but apart from that the anniversary passed peacefully. It`s almost as if the msg was ``we went there before, you don`t want to go there again, right? well, we don`t either, so please don`t start something...`` Frightening, but it has a sick logic.
Regards
``Whats good for gujrat isnt good for maharashtra or for other parts of the country....people in bangalore would rather riot over a film star being kidnapped..``
Or found dead. (25 buses burned, right?)
``To get the hindus to riot would require the vhp etc to fake some sort of an attack on hindus or latch on to something like godhra.``
Indeed.
``If you go over the communal riots of the past years, most of the riots were localized and trigerred in that locality by specific indidents..godhra, bombay etc. etc. Even when gujrat was burning, bombay was peaceful. When bombay was bruning in 92, gujrat was peaceful.``
Bombay was peaceful because the Govt made thousands of preventative arrests of Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal activists. In fact those parts of Gujarat where such arrests were made (Kutch) also saw much less violence. Also, there WAS some communal violence in Maharashtra (North of Bombay) during that time.
IMO the conditions for communal riots exist in many parts of India - but large scale communal violence does not take place without the Govt of the day (and place) turning a blind eye to it.
If you recall, Godhra is located quite close to the MP border with Gujarat, and there were fairly strenuous attempts to spread the violence to MP - attempts which Digvijay Singh (Congress) stamped on hard (and successfully). That`s why there is such unease with the BJP`s role in the whole thing - it couldn`t have happened the way it did without them.
(Congress has a similar story to answer for re the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi.)
The news, btw, is that the BJP won big in Gujarat - something like 125 to 50 seats. Spoke to some relatives from Gujarat before then, and they all predicted a BJP win - but I suppose we`re all surprised at the extent of their victory.
Anyway - I hope that you`re right, but I think that the BJP`s win is going to encourage those parts of the Sangh Parivar which deal in political violence. Thing is, if they get RESULTS, their pov is hard to counter within the Parivar without saying that it is their ideas and assumptions which are wrong - and I doubt that other parts of the Parivar are going to do that.
A tangent: I was in Bombay two weeks ago when a bomb went off in a bus in Ghatkopar, killing two people and injuring many. The Bombay riots were particularly violent there - and the timing (just before the anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition) and location of the bomb seemed to be a clear reminder of where things had gone in Bombay when Gujarat like violence had been allowed to go on unchecked. A ``response`` bomb then went off a few days later in a McDonald`s (!) in a Muslim majority area of the city, but apart from that the anniversary passed peacefully. It`s almost as if the msg was ``we went there before, you don`t want to go there again, right? well, we don`t either, so please don`t start something...`` Frightening, but it has a sick logic.
Regards
#99 Posted by faisaluno on December 15, 2002 6:52:22 am
wow. wonder if mma is going to be stealing a play from the gujrat playbook. even after all the histrionics and isi support, they only won about 50% of the seats in sarhad assembly.
#98 Posted by ferozk on December 15, 2002 6:52:22 am
Congrats to Modi and BJP!
Modi is a political genius and the BJP has to be lauded for supporting him through thick and thick. Congress failed, because it simply it did not understand the political value of hatred. The only person, who really understood region of South Asia and its people was M. K. Gandhi. Gandhi understood the fact that India, in its heart, is a communal state.
Hate unifies the opinion and hate clears all doubts; hate identifies common values and hate offers that rare glimpse of purpose, when all is failing and stands discredited. We worship at the alter of hate, because hate is a narissistic reflection of our own deep seated yearings. We may rave and rant against the various faces of hate, but hate always turns to us one, which our own and we meekly assume a silence of hypocricy. As long as we rationale hatred without understanding its reasons, we will always tolerate hate and justify its existence. Hate does not orginate, but from within the tangled web of our minds and circumtances do not give cause to hate, but the evil that lurks in all our hearts, which flames its destruction.
Edmund Burke once said that evil succeds not because good men do it, but because they do nothing to stop it. There is much to be said about that quote and if one adds John Donne to it, then the bells are really tolling for all of us.
Hate is universial and hated has to be resisted. If hate is not resisted and it is allowed to flourish unabated, then the only consequence is facism and all of us, who wish the life of the world to move on to the broad sunlit uplands of hope and goodness, can only watch with caution the darkening of the horizon with the clouds of dread and hopelessness.
We may blame hate mongers of the world, but we should blame ourselves for standing by, as the hate marches past us in all its glory.
We all come at a pivotal cross roads in our lives and in the lives of our nation and we are faced with a choice. The people of Pakistan were faced with that choice 31 years ago, today, on December 16, 1971 and we failed, because we rationalized, instead of reasoning, our choice. That day, and the days preceding it, had we as a nation said, ``my country, it is of thee that I cry`` our fortunes might have been different and we always be poor for not knowning the difference.
India faces a similar choice and the path to hate and violence is so easy and so tempting that it rationalizes the choice, without a moment`s reason. There are Indians, who love India and cherish her and it is sincerely hoped that those Indians will make a choice; a choice that will not make them say, ``my country it is of thee that I cry``.
Best wishes for the new year to all; and may she be better one than one before her.
Ciao
Modi is a political genius and the BJP has to be lauded for supporting him through thick and thick. Congress failed, because it simply it did not understand the political value of hatred. The only person, who really understood region of South Asia and its people was M. K. Gandhi. Gandhi understood the fact that India, in its heart, is a communal state.
Hate unifies the opinion and hate clears all doubts; hate identifies common values and hate offers that rare glimpse of purpose, when all is failing and stands discredited. We worship at the alter of hate, because hate is a narissistic reflection of our own deep seated yearings. We may rave and rant against the various faces of hate, but hate always turns to us one, which our own and we meekly assume a silence of hypocricy. As long as we rationale hatred without understanding its reasons, we will always tolerate hate and justify its existence. Hate does not orginate, but from within the tangled web of our minds and circumtances do not give cause to hate, but the evil that lurks in all our hearts, which flames its destruction.
Edmund Burke once said that evil succeds not because good men do it, but because they do nothing to stop it. There is much to be said about that quote and if one adds John Donne to it, then the bells are really tolling for all of us.
Hate is universial and hated has to be resisted. If hate is not resisted and it is allowed to flourish unabated, then the only consequence is facism and all of us, who wish the life of the world to move on to the broad sunlit uplands of hope and goodness, can only watch with caution the darkening of the horizon with the clouds of dread and hopelessness.
We may blame hate mongers of the world, but we should blame ourselves for standing by, as the hate marches past us in all its glory.
We all come at a pivotal cross roads in our lives and in the lives of our nation and we are faced with a choice. The people of Pakistan were faced with that choice 31 years ago, today, on December 16, 1971 and we failed, because we rationalized, instead of reasoning, our choice. That day, and the days preceding it, had we as a nation said, ``my country, it is of thee that I cry`` our fortunes might have been different and we always be poor for not knowning the difference.
India faces a similar choice and the path to hate and violence is so easy and so tempting that it rationalizes the choice, without a moment`s reason. There are Indians, who love India and cherish her and it is sincerely hoped that those Indians will make a choice; a choice that will not make them say, ``my country it is of thee that I cry``.
Best wishes for the new year to all; and may she be better one than one before her.
Ciao
#97 Posted by Romair on December 15, 2002 12:44:15 am
Seems like BJP is going to win. I would say this is bad news for India in the long run.
If it does win, will this encourage it to use the same tactics in other provinces and for the national election. After all, wherever it tried to show its moderate face, it lost. Wherever it has shown its real face, it is winning.
If it does win, will this encourage it to use the same tactics in other provinces and for the national election. After all, wherever it tried to show its moderate face, it lost. Wherever it has shown its real face, it is winning.
#96 Posted by einsteinwallah on December 14, 2002 7:39:02 pm
[ #57 by FarzanaVersey on December 13, 2002 11:34am PT
...
Re: the cow, how I wish people used their memory before rushing to comment. Narendra Modi had been talking about how Sonia Gandhi was unconcerned about issues like cow protection. So… ]
Can you quote the full speech? If you can not then you should retract above statement.
Thanks, -ew
...
Re: the cow, how I wish people used their memory before rushing to comment. Narendra Modi had been talking about how Sonia Gandhi was unconcerned about issues like cow protection. So… ]
Can you quote the full speech? If you can not then you should retract above statement.
Thanks, -ew
#95 Posted by Studebaker on December 14, 2002 5:39:34 pm
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#94 Posted by Studebaker on December 14, 2002 5:39:34 pm
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#93 Posted by Studebaker on December 14, 2002 5:39:34 pm
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#92 Posted by Studebaker on December 14, 2002 5:15:14 pm
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