The Unmaking Of Gujrat

Harpreet, #176

Yes, Harpreet, just like you, I will defend a friend what come may. Having said that, I will start condemning Urstruly for his off-the-cuff remarks the day hateful posts by Hindus are condemned at Chowk.

As you have noticed, thanks to mostly Hindu posters, Chowk has failed as a civil gathering. They have polluted an otherwise noble attempt to discuss serious South Asian issues. It is a sad commentary on the Hindu civilization, as represented at Chowk. Little these Hindus know that they represent the mindset of their civilization at Chowk. Gujrat has proven, and perhaps now entire India is going to prove (I`m hoping not), how ``civil`` the ancient ``civilization`` is. We at Chowk have already experienced that.

You are a very noble, decent, and a thoughtful person. I consider you a good friend. And I will defend you what come may. Here`s to your health.

Btw, that little story of yours is not offensive at all. It just goes to show how sick a person can get in his hate.


Feroz, #175

Dear friend,

Well said. However, no matter how ``fascinating`` the study of hate is, there is nothing fascinating about the damage it does to those who are victim of it.

As for Chowk becoming a place to post hate rather than using this site to bridge the gap and developing an understanding and friendship between two people...well, you have been around at Chowk long enough to have seen it all and know how great and noble an idea it was, which in fact worked quite wonderfully in the beginning...alas...


pmishra2, #174

And sort of like Abraham Lincoln providing Martin Luther King a certificate of freedom...

You get the idea. The one thing that is most amusing about you is the clarity and consistency of your silly statements.

Btw, I am totally flattered that you give so much weight to my certification. And you are right about me. I am no slouch.


Lucy, #171

Lucy dear (yes, you are a sweetheart even if you don`t like me...and no sarcasm intended),

In fact, yes I did register. Willfully and gladly, I made the INS completely and thoroughly investigate me even though I had been an American citizen for a very long time. I make sure that I tell everyone I come from Pakistan. In my very Waspish Company, I am probably the only Pakistani, and everyone who knows me knows that, including the CEO who asked me very curiously where I was from.

I am a model American citizen. I represent everything that is good about Muslims and about America. This country loves people like me. You know, a very wise man from deep American South who had traveled the world over and knew me quite well once told me, and I quote, ``I wish all immigrants to this country were like you.``

Hope this satisfies your query.

Love ya sweetie,

Godot

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I really don`t have time for a lengthy post so I will make this short. I would a like a honest answer from muslims here ... If hindus hate you, dalits hate you ( include me ), other backward castes ( OBCs ) hate you, sikhs hate you, Serbs hate you, Russians hate you, jews hate you, british hate you ( remember Oldham ? ), americans hate you then there may be something fundamentally wrong with the way muslims conduct themselves OR do you guys say that the fault lies with everyone else but muslims.

- thanks for thoughtful answers
Sri

None of you understand the true significance of the BJP victory in Gujarat. It is not the victory of the Hindu over the Muslim or the communal over the secular.

The election results signify the ascendancy of the Baniyas of the VHP over the Brahmins of the RSS.

...why are so many pakistanis gloating over gujarat...it`s like a bunch of makkhis hovering over a dead bird....

Shah

{{If Congress learns that one lesson, then something worthwhile will have come out of this appalling result. India needs an opposition party that works. At the moment it does not have one. Congress — in many people’s minds, still tainted by corruption and wedded to red tape and government control — is the nearest thing to an institutionalized political vacuum that India has ever seen. It has to start coming up with coherent ideas and a leader who is not just keeping the seat warm until her children are ready to take over. Otherwise, the BJP will continue in office no matter how much violence it stirs up}}

- That will never happen while the spawn of the devil Sonia Gandhi has her talons on the steering wheel, condemning India to a slow death all for the sake of keeping her wretched brood in power. For her and her cabal, India only exists to be ruled by their family for eternity. The Congress party is the natural home for the eunuchs of India, and they all surround and supplicate the Gandhi family like a bunch of slavering sycophantic leeches. Yes, thats right, after sixty years of independance, great writers, academics, great minds, nobel winning scientists, innovative business leaders, commited social activists, one billion people, the Congress party has been unable to unearth a single leader of vision or talent that is better suited for the job than a middle aged Italian neurotic and her rancid family.

Lets face facts, India is screwed, big time.

-h-

Re: Harpreet

The present situation in India can only be akin with the situation in Weimar Republic if the following question can be answered.

Who is supporting BJP/VHP/RSS in India? Which socio-economic group is funding their political platforms? Who benefits from their policies?

The Nazis rose to power, because there was a political vacuum in during the Weimar republic and the Nazis were supported by the educated German middle classes and the industrialists for their own ends, which was to lessen economic competion they were facing in Germany.

Re: Ghalib Zaman

Trully delighted to learn that you are still caught up in the meaningless arugments debating the virtues of an english or a urdu medium school.

Ciao

e_w#158
Here is a report on the forensic investigation on Godhra.
http://www.the-week.com/22jul07/cover.htm

Here is another which explains the doors
www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july06/n12.htm

(now available only on web cache).
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:vPIhwpVN2OMC:www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july06/n12.htm+Godhra+AND+train+AND+forensic+investigation&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

In summary, inflammable liquid was spilled near seat 72(one end of the coach near one pair of open doors), the end adjoining S7. Thats where the fire began and spread towards the other end of the coach.

Since the fire started on the S7 side, the conclusion one can draw is that passengers couldnot use the doors on that side even though both the doors were open. On the opposite side(near S5) there was only one door open. Thats the side on which most passengers died. The coach was also heavily stoned from outside.

The amount of detail about this incident which is available in the media is in stunning contrast to the total absence of detail available about the subsequent instances of Hindu mob violence, esp against Ehsan Jafri. Thats something which is totally beyond understanding and casts doubts on even the English language press.

It was one thing to keep mute to allow passions to die down and prevent further loss of life, but after these elections, such media silence will only become another reason for murderers and rapists to walk free.

like always farzana, my sympathies...you should stick to writing about silly asininesque things like loneliness..what losers u be..what incredible losers..and then these pigs have the audacity to tell me my country kills its minorities...the ulat pulat twists put on gujrat are wonderfully unbelievable..your state is part of the killings and these guys..your baniyas are justifying the killings of so many...so nicely..and theyre so convincing..its not india dear, its modi...india is secular...ohyeah baaaaby, secular....secular my ass.....buy yourself a one way tikkie to bangladesh or scotland behna..warna one of these days youll find yourself in a dark galli with an arjun_m or rsirdhar type smriking with a bazooka (Farzana is a Pakistani soul in an Indian body, what a poet he is) and then therell be no more disheartening feedback only lots of flavoured milk in jannat

pmishra2

{{Nasah, you have put it very well. These faults are within India and can only be cured by Indians. It is however difficult to put with ``experts`` from openly sectarian countries (with miniscule minorities) providing ``advice``.

Between Narendra Modi and the Indira/Rajiv/Sonia triad, it is hard to know who is more vile. The day when Ms. Sonia Gandhi and her descendants are out of politics will be a great one for India.}}

- Well said mate

-h-

Punjaban;

About two years ago there was a Pakistani man from Alum Rock in Birmingham who was convicted of male date rape. He would drop rohypnol into the drinks of men he met in pubs, take them home and sodomise them while they were asleep. I SWEAR THAT THIS IS A TRUE STORY. My friend is a lawyer who works for the Crown Prosecution Service and he had to sit through the video tapes that this pervert made. The judge put a reporting ban on the trial because he feared it would affect community relations. The point is that this guy (he called himself Cowboy) would only ever drug and bugger Hindu men and boys. He was obsessed with penetrating Hindus and would target only them. It was totally played down by the police and the media that there was a Hindu-hating homo rapist on the loose, because it might stir up trouble between the communities. The damn fool made videos of himself doing this. I am not joking this is a true story. So anyway, he is sitting in the nonce section of Winson Green prison at the moment, picking up soap for the big goray.

My point is that Cowboy and Urstruly are DEFINATELY intenet buddies, co-conspirators, onanistic pen-pals, they are probably even related to each other.

Urstruly, if you ever come to England to visit your boyfriend Cowboy in the slammer let me know I live about three miles from Winson Green prison. I want to throw some rotten apples and bricks at your faggot batty.

take care

-h-

(anyone offended by the above just chill out)

Godot

Much of what you say about the sickness and hysteria at the heart of Indian society is true. And I agree with you about some of the responses to Farzana`s articles. But I have to respectfully part company with you on one thing. Urstruly really is a bigot. He should be proud of it.

I respect your loyalty to a friend. I have racist acquaintances that when puch comes to shove I would defend. It is an admirable quality of yours.

-h-

Ref. Godot`s Post


Dear Godot, have you registered yet?


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/17/politics/17IMMI.html

Men From Muslim Nations Swamp Immigration Office

By JOHN M. BRODER with SUSAN SACHS

LOS ANGELES, Dec. 16 — Lines began forming before dawn today outside the downtown federal building here as hundreds of men from five Muslim countries showed up to register with immigration authorities under a sweeping national dragnet designed to identify potential terrorists.
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Today, the Justice Department added Armenia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to the program, with a reporting deadline of Feb. 21.
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Cheers,

Lucy

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Although it is just a wishful thinking on my part but simplisistic interpretation of this election results, may all be proven wrong by precisely the same dynamic which made it happen. And that dynamic is yet to play out in the future.

If Modi has prime ministerial ambition then he will want himself to be seen as fair minded chief miniter. He may work to heal wounds. When muslims were being killed would it have helped if Modi had tried to suppress violence with iron hand? Probably not. Probably such attempts would have immediately been branded as somewhat Gandhivadi. And who knows if he had tried to be another Mahatma he would not have been assasinated.

But it is the muslims of India who would never forgive Modi especially muslims of Gujarat. It is the Hindus who constitute majority of constituencies of elected leaders. If Modi can show himself as somebody who wants to work for good governance and wants to hunt down Hindu murderers without going berserk then Hindus will probably would not mind doing business with Modi. After all as far as rest of India is concerned Hindus were really speaking never under attack by muslim militants. Hindus and Muslims in rest of India are not exactly friendly neighbours, but Hindus would be more concerned for their own safety. Failures of stemming militancy is seen more as failure of intelligence and police and corruption.

And hindus would be willing to do business with any one who would play fair with them. Could it happen that combined with a Modi`s career ambitions and BJP`s ambitions to hold on to power at centre at any cost, they may want to doctor their image as firm but fair rulers, and that itself feeds the dynamic which will prevent export of Gujarat experiment? I do not think it is possible to replicate Gujarat result if a recent local ``Godhra`` have not happened in rest of India. India is far too plural to have such replicatable experiments.

One journalist said three and a half factors favoured BJP in Gujarat. (see: http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/16flip.htm). I do not think Election Commisioner will do same mistake again. So the ``half`` factor which Shenoy talks about would be missing.

Muslim militancy is also substantially missing in rest of India. Media do not have a burning issue like they had in Gujarat. And lastly how Cong(I) handled the elections. Cong(I) has been same since ages. Same culture of wheeling and dealing. Their candidates are corrupt, mired in local muck. If it is true that they experimented with soft hindutva in Gujarat, then they know by now it does not work. Cong(I) has really lost touch with grass roots and has become a party of corrupt politicians. Much depends on how Cong(I) handles coming elections.

All in all there are hardly any state which is substantially like Gujarat. The fear of BJP exporting Gujarat experiment is baseless. Predicting coming elections on the basis of recent elections is foolish.

-ew